for Montygram, and others- lots of problems- hormones, vasomotor rhinitis, depression
lian
1. The 2 problems which most harm my life, and which are the most
important for me to solve - nasal congestion and depression.
2. Chronic physiological characterizations which I have already 10-20
years, which might reveal the "enigma" of my body.
3. A problem of the last 3 months, following a Betamethasone injection
and more, which have been a trauma to my body, but may pass in time
4. My questions to you. and would love to hear any suggestions etc.
I apologizing for it being long.
Part 1
At age 16 I had rhinoplasty (unnecessary, a teenager's craze). Till
then I had no breathing problem. The operation narrowed the air
passages in the nose and caused hyper-sensitivity.
Otolaryngologists removed turbinates, straightened septum, but it
doesn't help. Prick allergy tests were negative, but I may be
allergic to something which wasn't tested. My problem was defined as
vasomotor rhinitis.
My nose is also very dry because of the turbinates taking out.
This is the problem which is most critical for me of all problems
because my blocked nose causes low oxygen saturation and sleep apnea
(17 apneas per hour). Therefore my sleep quality is extremely bad and
this is the root cause of many of my other problems.
For the last 10 years I irrigate with lots of saline and use inhaled
steroids and they help a little. I also think they increase my
depression (for example by affecting the vomeronasal organ which
affects the olfactory bulb), but I can find no other solution, and
without the steroids my nose is even more blocked.
More information that might be relevant on this issue is
a) During my last nose operation, a year ago, under general anathesia
I had respiratory arrest.
b) I can't drink alcohol at all, because even in tiniest amounts it
destroys my sleep even more. I don't know if this is because the
alcohol depresses the sleep center so it is less sensitive to CO2,
which is a problem I have already, or many other reasons.
8 years ago I began to suffer from chronic depression, with most of its
symptoms. I started using Prozac. I tried other SSRI but Prozac was
most convenient. It helps a lot with the depression, but the problem is
that it eliminates my libido. Therefore I constantly withdraw from it,
get my libido back, afterwards sink again into depression and start
using it again. Even if I take 5 mg a day, it still abolish my libido.
I don't find a solution how to deal with the depression and still
preserve my libido.
I think my depression is a lot because of the sleep-apnea and the bad
quality of sleep. Also perhaps I have a genetic predisposition, since
my mother have OCD.
I have also lot of physiological hallmarks of depression. For example,
I tend to react with stress to a lot of things (my baseline cortisol is
530 -550 nmol/L).
My sleep is very light, so even the smallest noise wake me up.
My heart rate variability is very low (measured a lot of time with the
Freeze-Framer software). and more.
Since the SSRI family is most suitable for me, and it is also
considered most suitable for OCD, perhaps it is a problem related to
serotonin regulation?
I tried tryptophan supplement, but it made me feel bad.
I read that both in vasomotor rhinitis and in neurodegenerative
diseases (including depression), there is excess peroxynitrite.
How can I decrease peroxynitrite? For example I heard about chlorogenic
acid, but I hope there are more ways. ( and as I will tell later,
it's not excess oxidation from eating PUFA and other oils, cause I just
don't eat them)
1. Immunohistochemical localization of 3-nitrotyrosine in the nasal
respiratory mucosa of patients with vasomotor rhinitis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15799577&query_hl=1
2. Pindolol is a potent scavenger of reactive nitrogen species.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15916777&query_hl=13
3. Excitotoxic brain damage involves early peroxynitrite formation in
a model of Huntington's disease in rats: protective role of iron
porphyrinate 5,10,15,20-tetrakis (4-sulfonatophenyl)porphyrinate iron
(III
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16111817&query_hl=9
I've also read that depression is related to excess glutamate. Do you
know how to reduce glutamate (except for avoiding monosodium
glutamate)?
Part2
A list of my chronic characteristics :
* During the last 10 years the interval between menses has decreased
from 29-30 days to 25-26 days.
(Why? Because of the Prozac, the inhaled steroids, the low cholesterol,
early menopause, or what?)
I'm 35, I didn't want children until now, but I want to become pregnant
during the next year.
I am afraid that the more then average menses per year+haven't being
pregnant
wear and tear my body.
* Aphthous Stomatitis (ulcers in the mouth). Increasing when I have
infection. Interestingly, 5 days of Vioxx made it worse.
* chronic dermal nuisances : rosacea, folliculitis, pityriasis
versicolor, seborrheic dermatitis.
* Since age 20 my skin was yellowish ('xanthochromia'). My relatives
are pinker than me. I also was pink until age 20.
The doctor says it is carotenemia, even though I don't eat much
beta-carotene. I have freckles, orange hair color and green eyes, so
either my skin became yellowish because this is my natural
pigmentation, or there is some problem which is unclear to me.
I don't have hepatitis. I have constantly increased bilirubin. Maybe
this is connected? How can I reduce the bilirubin?
* Constant findings in blood tests :
Count : high RBC, low MCV (78, sometimes 80 but no higher). Perhaps
because of chronic low oxygen saturation or iron deficiency etc.
(perhaps thalassemia?).
MCH always low. MACRO % always low (zero), MICRO % always high.
Sometimes RDW or MCHC high, sometimes the percentage of monocytes is
high.
Iron : hemoglobin 12-12.8 g/dl. Ferritin until two years ago below 10
ng/ml. Lately I've taken iron supplements and the ferritin increased to
22.
Could it be that the increase in ferritin caused the drop in copper?
After the steroid shot the hemoglobin was 13, and now dropped to 12.
Immunity: decreased globulin beta (in protein electrophoresis), low
complement C3. Albumin a little high. HLA-B52 positive. Blood type O+.
anca-c, anca-p, rheumatoid factor, CRP- positive but within the
normal range.
PT-INR 0.98, PT % 101.5.
But maybe oppositely, every pressing on my skin, to say nothing of a
slight blow, results in a hematoma.
does it indicate something? Perhaps the capillaries break easily? If
so, what compound is missing? Is it connected to the copper deficiency?
* For 15 years I've avoided the sun fanatically, and therefore a
deficiency in vitamin D was recently found (14 ng/ml).
* For 20 years I haven't eaten high-calcium foods and didn't take
calcium supplements, and I had vitamin D deficiency.
Calcium blood levels are ok, but for all these 20 years my finger nails
were very soft and break all the time. If I took calcium supplement,
even for a week, they immediately became hard, and when I stopped they
returned to being soft.
I'm afraid of osteoporosis.
* In my last blood test magnesium was a bit high- 2.3 mg/dl
(range:1.6-2.2). I haven't taken a supplement. Perhaps it is high
because of my large vegetable intake or because of the betamethasone
influence, etc..
* Low copper. Since it was never tested before I don't know if it is
constant or a temporary lack because of the betametasone or some other
temporary changes.
(for example, in the last half year I started using calcium enriched 0%
fat milk).
On one hand I have signs of copper deficiency - hair falling out, weak
connective tissues. On the other hand I read that copper deficiency
reduces RBC and I have high RBC (though with low MCV).
>From age 17 I've kept a healthy diet, according to the "usual
recommendations".
Till the age of 25 I was vegetarian. I developed deficiencies od B12
and ferritin (less than 10 ng/ml) but from age 25 I started eating a
bit milk/eggs/meat.
My diet during the last years was: legumes, bread, oats, lot of fruits.
Vegetables (red pepper, tomatoes, lettuce, cucumbers, parsley, dill,
Coriander, onion, lemon), eggs, and once every two weeks meat.
Everything organic.
The only oil I used was best quality olive oil, and never heated it. No
PUFA, omega3 or saturated fat, oxidised cholesterol. (So, Monty, I
assume the fatty acids, are not the culprit in my case?)
No smoking, alcohol, or caffeine.
I also avoided cholesterol, and my total cholesterol was around 160.
Now, after reading you, Monty, and others, I've increased my
cholesterol intake, and it has already risen to 175. As far as I'm
concerned it can rise to 200.
Part 3
3 months ago I decided to solve the long standing problem of nasal
congestion, because, as I wrote above, my bad sleep quality is at the
root of many of my problems.
Inside one month I tried many drugs, each for 4-5 days only, cause I
stopped either because they didn't help or caused terrible sedation.
The drugs were:
anti-histamines (Ketotifen, Fexofenadine , Cetirizine nasal
Azelastine), Pseudoephedrine, nasal Ipratropium bromide, Montelukast,
Ginko Biloba.
And also Trazadone and the tricyclic Clomipramine (to try and deepen
my sleep and so perhaps get around the sleep apnea).
Ketotifen helped the congestion but was too sedative. Also, after
stopping it, I started having itches all over the body, which lasted
for a month (perhaps the histamine levels rose? ).
Also started having exaggerated and untypical Hair Loss . It continues
till now.
(maybe decrease in testosterone?)
Also small white spots on one hand (doctor termed 'hypomelanosis
guttate idiopathic').
Another medicine I tried was Ranitidine, thinking that perhaps H2
blocking will help. It indeed helped my congestion for 4 days, but then
tolerance developed and it stopped helping. I took ranitidine for a
week and then stopped.
A day after stopping, my blood pressure dropped to 81/51, when my
usual blood pressure is 110/70. I also had weakness.
This continued for a week and was accompanied by extreme pupil
contraction (perhaps because ranitidine also increases acetylcholine).
After a week it seemed to stop.
9 weeks ago I received 1 cc betamethasone injection into the gluteus,
extended release. also in an attempt to help the nasal congestion.
It didn't help the congestion and had bad influence on me. A day after
the injection I felt again the low blood pressure. I lost my appetite
and in one week lost 5 kg. This is after 18 years of being at the same
weight (60 kg, height 171 cm).
sleep became awful. much more then the usual. digestion was slowed.
Cortisol fell to 10 nmol/L, but this is usual because of suppression by
the Betamethasone. After 5 weeks the cortisol rose to 672 nmol/L, which
is too high, and after 7 weeks came down to 490, which is lower than my
usual (which is high - 530). The injection also decreased my usual
levels of testosterone and DHEA-S.
Bleeding during my menstrual cycle 5 days after the injection was
extremely low. 4 weeks after the injection (21 days after the previous
mense) was extreme in the large amount of bleeding.
The injection also caused an increase in my leukocytes (WBC-15500), and
neutrophyls to very high levels which I never had, not even during an
infection. However it has now returned to normal.
aldosterone found very high 1157 pmol/L (perhaps rising in an attempt
to increase my blood pressure, which is low because of some unknown
factor).
low Plasma Renin Activity, 0.51 ng/ml/hr, but inside the range.
Catecholamines : high dopa (2269 pg/ml)+low, but within the range,
norepinepherine, epinepherine , dopamine . The doctor says the
catecholamines levels are all right.
high CPK (190 U/L), which is not characteristic for me. Perhaps
caused by muscles breakdown because of the steroid injection and later
high endogenous cortisol and aldosterone. Since the injection my
muscles have been feeble.
During the last week my blood pressure had some rises and to 90/60,
and I was happy, but it returns to 80/50.
My feces were yellow for 2 days, but it passed, and now there is mucus
and some diarrhea. I regain 2 kg back. I still suffer from severe
fatigue and exhaustion which I never felt previous to 3 months ago.
I guess the Injection unbalanced all the hormones, which already were
at fragile balance before, and I'm afraid I'll develop chronic fatigue
syndrome
Part 4
1. about my contemporary problem- how to increase blood pressure, in
healthy ways (not adrenaline etc.). I would like it to reach 110/70
2. Which solutions for vasomotor rhinitis and nasal congestions do you
know?
I didn't try anti-histamines for long, but now I'm afraid to try.
3. How can I extend the interval between menses?
Is it worth trying to increase my progesterone levels? If so - how?
What is pregnenolone? What are the dangers in taking it? After all,
there are no free lunches...
4. How to decrease my baseline cortisol levels
5. While under the effect of the injection I also had a check of TSH
levels, that were 4.5 mU/L and T4 free 14.8 pmol/L. I also, all
this years, have cold sensitivity.
An endocrinologist told me I should lower TSH to 2-3, and to start
taking 12.5 mcg Levothyroxine, and I begun a month ago.
.
However, it causes increases in my pulse (90 instead of the usual 70),
and caused my sleep to be even worse than it was and to be very
restless. Does that mean Levothyroxine dosage is still too high? or
that in my case I shouldn't take it? After all, the TSH is a little
high and T4 is somewhat normal.
Also, 5 years ago I already had a trial with levothyroxine, and after a
few months of taking it I developed severe reflux and heartburn, and my
rosacea was worsened. So I stopped.
Should I raise my thyroid activity? If so, is there another solution
besides Levothyroxine?
(Again, Monty, I don't think it's a matter of fatty acids oxidation,
regarding avoiding them)
7. which various reasons can cause atypical and exaggerated hair fall
out?
(besides hypothyroidism)
8. I don't know if I have deficiencies in some minerals (boron,
molybdenum, manganese, selenium, iodine, silica, zinc, etc.). I am
afraid to take a supplement for specific mineral if I don't really have
a deficiency at this specific mineral.
What supplements should I take to have a balance between all minerals,
not having one cause a deficiency in the other (for example copper
causes problems with zinc),
or having an excess overdose, because I think having too much causes as
much damage as having too little.
9. Copper supplement - to take or not to take. I'm afraid because
copper can increase lipid peroxidation, be deposited in the brain, and
increase neurodegeneration, which I'm most afraid of because of my
depression.
Perhaps the deficiency is temporary? Might it become balanced of
itself?
If I should take a supplement, which does not cause constipation
(gluconate ,sebacate, etc')?
10. What is the safest way of raising iron levels without risking
oxidation etc. and without depressing copper. Or perhaps ferritin 10-22
and hemoglobin 12-12.5 is O.K. for a 35 year old woman?
11. How to increase MCV levels
12. How to decrease bilirubin levels
13. About vitamin D. I need to get 2000 IU vitamin D3 each day, in
order to raise my 25(OH)D levels to 30 ng/ml.
The D3 supplement based on lanolin (sheep wool) causes constipation. I
don't want the supplement extracted from fish oil because it contains
vitamin A.
Dermatologist told me to be very careful of the sun. So how can I raise
my vitamin D levels?
14. Is it possible that the vitamin D deficiency or the copper
deficiency decreased my thyroid activity , so I don't have 'real'
hypothyroidism?
15. All these years I've avoided caffeine. Because of the low blood
pressure I've started to drink caffeine. The problem is that it causes
jitteriness, and also raises pulse. Should I avoid caffeine?
16. After years of almost no sodium consumption, I've increased my salt
intake. Should I also increase iodine consumption? Or is it dangerous
together with Levothyroxine?
17. Which calcium supplement is the best, the most soluble.
18. What are the hazard effects of taking complex B vitamins?
thanks for reading. I really really need your help.
montygram
needle in a haystack. There are just too many complicating factors
here. I think I was able to figure out what was wrong with me because
I lived a stress-free life and ate a very specfic, rigid vegan diet.
After trying a few different diets, I found that Ray Peat's suggestions
wroked best. Don't feel bad, though, because you are the rule, not the
exception. I think I can help, except for the physical things you've
done to yourself that are causing problems and that are irreversible
(nose job).
You need to start taking gelatin for the fingernails. This will take
less than a month to work. I use a brand called 21st century, which I
got from iherb.com, but you can just go to your local supermarket and
get whatever they have if you want to save money.
If your depression is biochemical, which it likely is, you have got to
stop using any major source of polyunsaturated fatty acids. The fish
oil might work temporarily, but it does tremendous free radical damage
to your body. It will take about 2 years to clear out the arachidonic
acid from your brain, but then you will see that you think clearly and
deliberately, and your compulsions will be gone. In the meantime, you
can try lithium orotate, which used to be available over the internet
at some supplements companies. For example, " lithium and antimanic
anticonvulsants act by targeting parts of the "arachidonic acid
cascade," which may be functionally hyperactive in mania.2."
Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry 2002 Jul;59(7):592-6.
Use citrate forms of magnesium and calcium, and potassium as well, if
you can find it (if not, gluconate). Try small amounts in a variey of
combinations, and take larger and larger doses until you get the
combination that works for you. The problem is all the drugs you take
and the other problems, along with all the AA in your body, which is
why the lithium should act as a stabilizer until you get thte AA out.
Take the pregnenolone as I suggested in the last email. iher.com seems
to have the best prices and I use them more than any other company.
A little copper, also as I suggested in the last email.
The hypothyroidism will go away once you remove all that is inhibiting
it, so don't worry about that - the molecular level has to be addressed
before the tissue/organ level, except in emergency medicine.
Check to see if you have orthostatic hypotension - see if your blood
pressure and heart rate change when you go from lying down for 15
minutes or more to standing 5 minutes or more.
Potassium and magnesium in the right forms should help the blood
pressure, as well as drinking more. Drink pineapple juice, unless you
hate the taste. Seltzer or club soda should be consumed at least in
small amounts each day, though you should experiment to see what
combinations work best. If you find one, remember that it likely will
change, so be ready to make adjustments.
Why aren't you taking a vitamin D supplement? You said you avoid the
sun, so how did you think you were going to get enough vitamin D?
Drink organic, lighly roasted coffee, but drink small amount at first
and increase it to see what happens, then decide what works best.
A few raisins with each meal should help too. I let them sit in water
for a couple of hours so that they don't have that sickly sweet taste.
Have you had a bone density test?
Get rid of all anti-nutritive foods: beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains,
leafy greens, and dont' take supplements like IP6 or "chelators." The
coffee will do some chelating safely. Whole dairy with no addivitives
like carrageenan, locust bean, carob, guar, or other things that are
clearly additives. Breyer's makes a "Natural Vanilla" ice cream, which
is okay. Organic Valley makes an inexpensive raw cheese. Trader Joes
has butter and whole milk yogurt that is organic. And you should be
able to get free range organic eggs - just boil them - do not cook them
while exposed to air. If you like "meat," eat shellfish boiled.
Berries are good, as is dark chocolate, but using massive amounts of
herbs and spices that are said to be "antioxidant rich" could be a
problem, because they interfere with growth, which you need a little of
when you are recovering (and also when you are pregnant). A little
won't hurt, but I'm just warning you not to go crazy with
"antioxidants." If you remove the pro-oxidants, you don't have to
worry too much about the antioxidants. Eating in restaurants is a
problem because they often don't know what's in the food, and today
everyone is using highly unsaturated oils. So prepare your own meals.
You can use fresh coconut oil for your nose. I use it for all kinds of
moisturizing. I like Coconut Oil Supreme best, which you can find with
a google search.
A get vitamin B powder and let a tiny amount dissolve under my tongue
before each meal. It seems to work for me.
I had apnea, horrible rosacea, severe ostoporosis, tendonosis,
anti-nuclear antibodies, oral thrush that bore a hole in my tongue,
terrible fatigue, loss of balance, malabsorptions, rapid weight loss,
raised levels of EBV, etc., along with a worsening of CMT which started
when I was 11 years old.
Don't worry about what you "have" - just give your body what it needs
to fix everything itself. The biggest problem I see is that people
only do what they want, like the Chinese menu where you choose one from
column A and two from column B. You have to be very disciplined, and
you have to try things out systematically.
Good luck, and if you can, tell us how things progress.
Dawid Michalczyk
cause of your problems is essential - or you can keep on trying
this-and-that "remedy" for decades. The best diet in the world will not
help you unless you know what is causing you the problems.
Have you tried hair analysis to see what nutritional/toxic
deficiencies/excess you might have? Supposedly the best place to get
your hair analysis done: http://www.arltma.com/index.html
Here are a few links that might be helpful: (If I could afford it and
had your problems I would go to see these practitioners)
Steven Rochlitz PhD, believes that chronic parasitosis is the root cause
of many diseases. Read his articles and consider his books.
http://www.wellatlast.com/
Ronald Roth presents over 29 years of non-sponsored, independent
research and patient studies on Cellular Nutrition as measured with
Acu-Cell Analysis. His site is a gold mine. Read how nutritional
imbalances affect health - a cause too simple to be true and all too
often overlooked. Here is an article about copper excess found in nearly
90% of his patients:
http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
Good luck!
--
Dawid Michalczyk
http://www.art.eonworks.com - Art and Illustration
montygram
post. I'm trying to do too many things in too short a period of time,
so the typos will always occur.
IanW
news:1127336559.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If your depression is biochemical, which it likely is, you have got to
> stop using any major source of polyunsaturated fatty acids. The fish
> oil might work temporarily, but it does tremendous free radical damage
> to your body.
are there any studies to back this up Monty? Everything I've ever read about
fish oils are positive.. indeed, I was recently reading about a UK doctor
who moved to practise in Norway and was surprised how many 80+ year olds not
only walked into her surgery but she could find very little wrong with
them - apparently they eat alot of fresh salmon over there.
Ian
IanW
"lian" <lia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127318105.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> This is the problem which is most critical for me of all problems
> because my blocked nose causes low oxygen saturation
Are you sure about that? If you're mouth-breathing throughout the night,
then you may actually be taking in *too much* oxygen. According to the
breathing method Buteyko, someone who breathes through their mouth alot
takes in about 3 times as much oxygen that they need, which disturbs ones
oxygen/carbon dioxide balance (carbon dioxide is necessary to help release
oxygen from haemoglobin, or sth like that) and oxygen = oxidative stress
too, so more than is necessary isn't good.
> and sleep apnea
> (17 apneas per hour). Therefore my sleep quality is extremely bad and
> this is the root cause of many of my other problems.
>
> For the last 10 years I irrigate with lots of saline and use inhaled
> steroids and they help a little.
ouch, that really isn't good.. over time steroid nose inhalers apparently
thin the skin in your nose out which will just make matters worse.
> I also think they increase my
> depression (for example by affecting the vomeronasal organ which
> affects the olfactory bulb), but I can find no other solution, and
I've got a suggestion for you to try - find an evening when your nose isn't
so blocked, ie: when the inhalers are working reasonably well and you can
breath through it.
Get hold of a roll of micropore tape (it's that tape that allows your skin
to breathe and is used when you make your own plasters up - from the chemist
and will set you back a couple of <insert currency of choice>).
Take about a 1 inch strip and place it on your closed lips, so that you are
effectively taping up your mouth. Don't worry, if you need to breathe
through your mouth during the night then you will easily be able to force
open your mouth. At first it may be a little disconcerting, and you might
find you want to gasp for breath (especially if you're nose is still
partially blocked), but try and relax and persist through it. I would
suggest repeating this until you manage to get through a night and wake up
with the tape still in place.
I do this most nights, and only once have woken up with the tape not in
place, but I only had mild sinus issues and no real problem sleeping at
night. However, I wake up feeling more refreshed. With you, it may have a
more pronounced and hopefully more beneficial effect. Buteyko (this,
incidentally, is not the Buteyko technique itself - it's just a little tip I
got from the course) can allegedly be very good for people with
sinus/blocked nose problems and sleep disorders.
Ian
montygram
I guess you haven't been reading my posts, so I'll copy and paste an
older one:
The fish oil "studies" are almost all short term, and what they
demonstrate is that long-chain omega 3s interfere with the
metabolization of the omega 6, arachidonic acid, into dangerous
metabolites, such as LTB4 and PGE2. Look up cancer LTB4 or cancer PGE2
on pubmed.com and you will see what I mean. It also refutes the
essentially fatty acid claim since they engage in what is called
"competitive inhibition," but there is so much evidence against that
absurd notion one need not bother much with this point. Free radical
damage is still occuring, but the "illnesses" of AA metabolization are
temporarily attenuated. I cited a study that made this point
explicitly. LC omega 3s tend to be vasodilative, whereas the LC omega
6s tend to be vasoconstrictive. Too much of one means bleeding
strokes, etc., whereas too much of the other means heart attacks and
blockage strokes. This is why just letting the body make its own LC
polyunsaturate, called the Mead acid, is best. I have done that for
about 4 years now with excellent results. Biochemisty Ray Peat must be
doing this for more than a decade now. According to the dogma, we
should be exhibiting major deficiency symptoms or else dead, but
instead the opposite has occurred. The peope who have been called
"essential fatty acid deficient" are always very old or ill people,
usually placed on fat free diets, and there are only a few such cases
in the entire literature. Compare that to the hundreds of studies
pointing out how dangerous arachidonic acid is. Mead acid does not get
metabolized by COX-2. Do you realize that huge amoutns of money are
being spent on COX-2 inhibitors? There is no need for this, because
you can just shut down COX-2 competely, without ingesting dangerous
oils to counteract COX-2. Creating a monster to kill a monster is not
a good idea. COX-2 was discovered recently and appears to be a way for
the body to deal with a foreign and dangerous substance. When you let
your body make its own PUFAs, there is no COX-2. If COX-2 was
essential, both Peat and myself, as well as the few others we know who
are avoiding dietary PUFAs should not be alive now. Alf Christopherson
(if that is the correct spelling) told me a while ago that my cuts
should not heal, but in fact they heal better than they ever did
before. The keloid I had since age 15 or so is almost totally gone.
And on, and on... If you do a study on temporary markers, you can make
almost any claim you like look strong.
There is oxygen in your instestines just as there is oxygen in the air
when you want an oil painting to dry. There is no doubt that free
radical damage is occuring, but the question is how much and how long
will it take for you to become "diseased." To say that this is all
hypothetical is ridiculous, as experiments have been done for decades
that demonstrate this. In recent years, researchers who have conflicts
of interest have been using "markers" and "surrogate endpoint," instead
of overall mortality, which is why I am saying to look at the raw
demographic data. It is available free of charge at the World Health
Organization's web site. I find it quite illuminating that so many
people will believe the mainstream media and snake oil salesmen on
these issues, rather than the science, when the media is often
criticized for everything else.
Aside from these sources, there are the major professional manuals,
which do cite their sources. In "Modern Nutrition in Health and
Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition), for example, they say the
"data certainly do not support the widely published assumption
that n-3 fatty acids possess a specific retarding effect on
atherogenesis... in rabbits at least, they seem to stimulate
atherosclerosis." The animals had liver damage as well as "Periportal
fibrosis, lipogranulomas filled with lipofuscin, and bile duct
hyperplasia." This is what one would expect. The authors go on to
say: "Other potentially harmful effects of 20:5 n-3 and 22:6 n-3 [that
is, EPA and DHA] rich fish oils are neglected by the advocates of
increased human consumption of fish oils. The pathologically increased
bleeding times, as observed after aspirin ingestion, also occurs in
Eskimos on a high fish oil diet." The reason has to do with its
blocking COX-2, as does aspirin. All this is known and basic. You are
just being mislead by snake oil salesmen and gullible media "experts."
The authors go on to talk about "a promoting role of [EPA/DHA] in the
development of carrdiac necrosis and an increased sensitivity to
catecholamine stress." They then talk about extreme tocopherol
("vitamin E") deficiency in animals and say that to repeat the
experiments in humans might be dangerous.
Another telling quotation:
"...the most severe degree of atherosclerosis was observed in rabbits
fed fish oil, with a similar trend in the [flax] oil group., rather
than after feeding palm oil with its high concentration of palmitic and
stearic acid [saturated fatty acids]."
This is all from page 102 alone. There's plenty more, in this book and
in others, but what more do you want? Go get this book and you can see
all the citations in it. And keep in mind that this is basic science.
It is about electron stealing from molecules that are necessary for
cells to function properly. There is no mystery here. In sharp
contrast, the studies cited in favor of fish oil are all flawed, as I
have pointed out. If you still feel that you are correct, then take me
up on my experiment offer. It will only cost you a few thousand
dollars, and then you will know that you should pay close attention to
what I am saying. If I can find the book I have from the National
Research Councli that has similar statements, I will post them here as
well.
Since the publication of this book, the evidence has gotten even
stronger, with only the temporary interference with AA metabolization
as a temporary "benefit" of fish oil consumption. As Spiteller has
stated, the harm you will be doing to yourself with the fish oil will
not be detectable immediately, unless you want to have biopsies done of
various tissues. AA metabolites are causing what are called the
"chronic diseases" of today, but if people ate huge amounts of omega
3s, instead of omega 6s (as is the case in the USA today), you would
see different "chronic diseases," as well as people dying of minor
blunt force traumas. Life expectancy would go down, because the omega
3s are even more unstable than the omega 6s (though they have contrary
physiological effects), in general.
I've also stated many times that fish oil might be great as
chemotherapy, which means that it is a cell killer - not something a
healthy person would want. Ironically, it damages cells, possibly
leading to cancer, but then might kill the cancer cells too.
What more do you need?
If you can't follow what I have said in this thread, then I guess you
will just have to suffer because of your misguided ideas. I haved
offered to do an experiment that will not have any of the tricks used
to try and sell fish oil, but nobody has accepted my straightforward
idea. Experiments have already been done, some decades ago, before
they learned how to massage results with markers and surrogate
endpoints that are inconsistent with basic scientific principles, so
that is why I say let us see which animals live longer. You can supply
the fish oil, so that you will know it is of the "highest quality."
Everything else will be the same. If you are correct, it will be a
"slam dunk." What are you waiting for?
lian
I couldn't and can't response cause I can't write good in english ( I m
from the Mediterranean area), and my "translator" as gone for a week.
IanW
[..]
thanks Monty.. some interesting stuff but I need to do more reading to put
it into perspective.
> of interest have been using "markers" and "surrogate endpoint," instead
> of overall mortality, which is why I am saying to look at the raw
> demographic data.
This may seem a simplistic question after all that, but Japan has the best
overall mortality rate, yet they eat alot of fish, and you can't get
longer-term than a life-time. So why do you think that is?
Ian