Don't drink 8 glasses of water a day!
nick
"Source: Dartmouth Medical School (http://www.dartmouth.edu/)
Date: Posted 8/9/2002
"Drink At Least 8 Glasses Of Water A Day" -- Really?
Hanover, NH -- It has become accepted wisdom: "Drink at least eight glasses
of water a day!" Not necessarily, says a DMS physician Heinz Valtin, MD. The
universal advice that has made guzzling water a national pastime is more
urban myth than medical dogma and appears to lack scientific proof, he
found.
In an invited review published online by the American Journal of Physiology
August 8, Valtin, professor emeritus of physiology at Dartmouth Medical
School, reports no supporting evidence to back this popular counsel,
commonly known as "8 x 8" (for eight, eight-ounce glasses). The review will
also appear in a later issue of the journal.
Valtin, a kidney specialist and author of two widely used textbooks on the
kidney and water balance, sought to find the origin of this dictum and to
examine the scientific evidence, if any, that might support it. He observes
that we see the exhortation everywhere: from health writers, nutritionists,
even physicians. Valtin doubts its validity. Indeed, he finds it, "difficult
to believe that evolution left us with a chronic water deficit that needs to
be compensated by forcing a high fluid intake."
The 8 x 8 rule is slavishly followed. Everywhere, people carry bottles of
water, constantly sipping from them; it is acceptable to drink water
anywhere, anytime. A pamphlet distributed at one southern California
university even counsels its students to "carry a water bottle with you.
Drink often while sitting in class..."
How did the obsession start? Is there any scientific evidence that supports
the recommendation? Does the habit promote good health? Might it be harmful?
Valtin thinks the notion may have started when the Food and Nutrition Board
of the National Research Council recommended approximately "1 milliliter of
water for each calorie of food," which would amount to roughly two to
two-and-a-half quarts per day (64 to 80 ounces). Although in its next
sentence, the Board stated "most of this quantity is contained in prepared
foods," that last sentence may have been missed, so that the recommendation
was erroneously interpreted as how much water one should drink each day.
He found no scientific studies in support of 8 x 8. Rather, surveys of fluid
intake on healthy adults of both genders, published as peer-reviewed
documents, strongly suggest that such large amounts are not needed. His
conclusion is supported by published studies showing that caffeinated
drinks, such as most coffee, tea and soft drinks, may indeed be counted
toward the daily total. He also points to the quantity of published
experiments that attest to the capability of the human body for maintaining
proper water balance.
Valtin emphasizes that his conclusion is limited to healthy adults in a
temperate climate leading a largely sedentary existence -- precisely, he
points out, the population and conditions that the "at least" in 8 x 8
refers to. At the same time, he stresses that large intakes of fluid, equal
to and greater than 8 x 8, are advisable for the treatment or prevention of
some diseases, such as kidney stones, as well as under special
circumstances, such as strenuous physical activity, long airplane flights or
hot weather. But barring those exceptions, he concludes that we are
currently drinking enough and possibly even more than enough.
Despite the dearth of compelling evidence, then, What's the harm? "The fact
is that, potentially, there is harm even in water," explains Valtin. Even
modest increases in fluid intake can result in "water intoxication" if one's
kidneys are unable to excrete enough water (urine). Such instances are not
unheard of, and they have led to mental confusion and even death in
athletes, in teenagers after ingesting the recreational drug Ecstasy, and in
ordinary patients.
And he lists other disadvantages of a high water intake: (a) possible
exposure to pollutants, especially if sustained over many years; (b)
frequent urination, which can be both inconvenient and embarrassing; (c)
expense, for those who satisfy the 8 x 8 requirements with bottled water;
and (d) feelings of guilt for not achieving 8 x 8.
Other claims discredited by scientific evidence that Valtin discusses
include:
Thirst Is Too Late. It is often stated that by the time people are thirsty,
they are already dehydrated. On the contrary, thirst begins when the
concentration of blood (an accurate indicator of our state of hydration) has
risen by less than two percent, whereas most experts would define
dehydration as beginning when that concentration has risen by at least five
percent.
Dark Urine Means Dehydration. At normal urinary volume and color, the
concentration of the blood is within the normal range and nowhere near the
values that are seen in meaningful dehydration. Therefore, the warning that
dark urine reflects dehydration is alarmist and false in most instances. Is
there scientific documentation that we do not need to drink "8 x 8"? There
is highly suggestive evidence, says Valtin. First is the voluminous
scientific literature on the efficacy of the osmoregulatory system that
maintains water balance through the antidiuretic hormone and thirst. Second,
published surveys document that the mean daily fluid intake of thousands of
presumably healthy humans is less than the roughly two quarts prescribed by
8 x 8. Valtin argues that, in view of this evidence, the burden of proof
that everyone needs 8 x 8 should fall on those who persist in advocating the
high fluid intake without, apparently, citing any scientific support.
Finally, strong evidence now indicates that not all of the prescribed fluid
need be in the form of water. Careful peer-reviewed experiments have shown
that caffeinated drinks should indeed count toward the daily fluid intake in
the vast majority of persons. To a lesser extent, the same probably can be
said for dilute alcoholic beverages, such as beer, if taken in moderation.
"Thus, I have found no scientific proof that absolutely every person must
'drink at least eight glasses of water a day'," says Valtin. While there is
some evidence that the risk of certain diseases can be lowered by high water
intake, the quantities needed for this beneficial effect may be less than 8
x 8, and the recommendation can be limited to those particularly susceptible
to the diseases in question.
DMS news is on the web at http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/news."
Brad Sheppard
supplements. I eat fiber rye crispbreads (2g fiber per crispbread)
and if you don't drink water with them you may get problems.
"nick" <sp...@spam.net> wrote in message news:<62Gta.13522$io.3...@iad-read.news.verio.net>...
Tim Tyler
: This seemed worthy of a post:
: "Source: Dartmouth Medical School (http://www.dartmouth.edu/)
: Date: Posted 8/9/2002
: "Drink At Least 8 Glasses Of Water A Day" -- Really?
: Hanover, NH -- It has become accepted wisdom: "Drink at least eight glasses
: of water a day!" Not necessarily, says a DMS physician Heinz Valtin, MD. The
: universal advice that has made guzzling water a national pastime is more
: urban myth than medical dogma and appears to lack scientific proof, he
: found.
There are no proofs in science. Most are happy with reasonable evidence.
With studies like:
``DRINKING WATER PREVENTS HEART ATTACK AND STROKE
30,391 healthy people with no prior history of heart disease, diabetes
or stroke were followed for 6 years.
5 or more glasses of water per day was associated with a 51% decrease in
fatal heart attack, compared with those who drank 2 glasses per day or
less. 3,809 people with a prior history of coronary heart disease,
diabetes or stroke were also studied for 6 years.
5 or more glasses of water per day was associated with a 44% decrease in
the incidence of fatal stroke. Nonfatal heart attacks and strokes were
also reduced to a somewhat lesser extent.
This benefit was seen only with water and not with other beverages.''
- http://drcranton.com/nutrition/prnutrition2.htm
...drinking lots of water seems prudent.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
pbeyer
Brad Sheppard wrote:
The 8 glasses a day was one of the recommendations that came in the "Stillman" diet era (a high
pro, low carb type diet). Likely recommended to cover the backside of the authors of such diets
which had potentially, very high renal solute loads. Such diets may also promote lithogenesis so
extra water was promoted for that as well.
Water was also advocated to increase satiety replace beverages that were calorie containing.
Pete
Brad Sheppard
has a water requirement for the elderly who evidently can forget to
drink fluids.
Tim Tyler <t...@tt1.org> wrote in message news:<HEHAB...@bath.ac.uk>...
tcomeau
> pro, low carb type diet). Likely recommended to cover the backside of the authors of such diets
> which had potentially, very high renal solute loads. Such diets may also promote lithogenesis so
> extra water was promoted for that as well.
> Water was also advocated to increase satiety replace beverages that were calorie containing.
> Pete
Hey Pete,
Are you suggesting that the mainstream picked up on *one*
recomendation from *one* severe low-carb diet (which is generally
considered quackery by the mainstream). And they (the maintream) have
completely accepted the *one* recomendation and pushes it constantly
as essential for good health based on the fact that it was recomended
by *one* (so-called quack) low-carb diet and nothing else.
Is that how modern nutritional scientists do their science? They just
accept what sounds reasonable out of all the suggestions put out there
by fringe diet supporters and other such ilk?
Why do you not simply admit that that modern nutritional sciences is
no more than a bunch of swag (scientific wild-ass guesses) based on
other swags?
Doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you guys know anything of
scientific value on the topic of human nutrition. Think about, you
guys don't even know how much water is optimal for human health. You
are guessing about a basic and fundamental requirement of the human
body!?!? Nothing is more fundamental to human life than water, air and
food.
I'll ask it again.... Why do you *not* know?
TC
Dr. S. Geek PhD
>From: tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau)
>Date: 5/7/03 6:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>
>Is that how modern nutritional scientists do their science?
>Why do you not simply admit that that modern nutritional sciences is
>no more than a bunch of swag (scientific wild-ass guesses) based on
>other swags?
>Doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you guys know anything of
>scientific value on the topic of human nutrition.
Can you spell SCAM?
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
--
Another we know next to nothing about nutrition
moment brought to you by Dr. S. Geek, Ph.D.
Science is all about knowing less and less
about more and more.
Señora Momenta
Geek PhD) [GOHDE] wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Don't drink 8 glasses of water a day!
>>From: tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau)
>>Date: 5/7/03 6:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!
>>
>
>>Is that how modern nutritional scientists do their science?
>
>>Why do you not simply admit that that modern nutritional sciences is
>>no more than a bunch of swag (scientific wild-ass guesses) based on
>>other swags?
>
>>Doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you guys know anything of
>>scientific value on the topic of human nutrition.
>
>Can you spell SCAM?
How is this relevant, GOHDE?
>Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Haven't you had that seen to yet, GOHDE?
>--
>Another we know next to nothing about nutrition
>moment brought to you by Dr. S. Geek, Ph.D. [GOHDE]
>
>Science is all about knowing less and less
>about more and more.
So you appear to demonstrate, GOHDE.
Moosh:)
pbeyer
tcomeau wrote:
Again shows how little you know and understand about the scientific process and the literature
available to you. The early diet promotors had to learn the hard way by getting in trouble with
inadequate hydration, renal stones, etc and only then did they apply what science had already
described and used long before--- the relationship between renal solute load from the diet and fluid
requirements.
P
tcomeau
> >Subject: Re: Don't drink 8 glasses of water a day!
> >From: tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau)
> >Date: 5/7/03 6:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!
> >
>
>
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Another we know next to nothing about nutrition
moment brought to you by Dr. S. Geek, Ph.D. [GOHDE]
Priapism
Finally, an interesting study found a direct correlation
between water intake and heart disease. Yet another reason
to drink enough water. In fact, this study actually found
that drinking enough water was as strong a predictor of
heart disease as exercise or smoking! I'm off to refill my
water glass!
April 25, 2002 (press release)
Loma Linda University reveals first study on correlation
between high water intake and lowered coronary heart disease
Jacqueline Chan, DrPH and Synnove Knutsen, MD, PhD
In 1999, nearly 530,000 people died from coronary heart
disease. More than half of them had no previous symptoms of
heart disease.
Drinking high levels of water can significantly reduce the
risk of coronary heart disease, say researchers at Loma
Linda University.
In a press conference held Thursday, April 25, the results
of a study to be published in the American Journal of
Epidemiology (Vol. 155, No.9) reveal that drinking high
amounts of plain water is as important as exercise,
diet, or not smoking in preventing coronary heart disease.
'Basically, not drinking enough water can be as harmful to
your heart as smoking,' warns Jacqueline Chan, DrPH,
principle investigator and lead author of the article.
Dr. Chan and Synnove Knutsen, MD, PhD, second author, chair
of epidemiology department, found that California Seventh-
day Adventists who drink five or more glasses of plain water
a day have a much lower risk of fatal coronary heart disease
compared to those who drink less than two glasses per day.
The study, 'Water, Other Fluids, and Fatal Coronary Heart
Disease,' indicates that whole blood viscosity, plasma
viscosity, hematocrit, and fibrinogen which are considered
independent risk factors for coronary heart disease, can be
elevated by dehydration.
The water study is part of the original Adventist Health
Study, which began in 1973. Both researchers are also
coinvestigators for the new Adventist Health Study.
The results from this study show that by drinking more plain
water, healthy people-without any history of heart disease,
stroke, or diabetes-reduced their risk of dying from a heart
attack by half or more.
This is as much or more than if they had adopted any other
well-known preventive measure, including stopping smoking
and lowering cholesterol levels, increasing exercise or
maintaining ideal weight.
While not as glamorous, the degree of benefit from drinking
plain water surpasses that of drinking a moderate amount of
alcohol intake and aspirin with none of the adverse side
effects (social or physiological).
Because drinking more plain water is a simple lifestyle
change that anybody can do, this simple practice has the
potential of saving tens of thousands of lives each year
with minimal cost.
Neither total fluid intake, nor intake of other fluids
combined showed this reduced risk. Instead, for women, high
intake (5 or more glasses a day) of other fluids showed a
greatly increased risk of coronary heart disease.
'People need to be made aware that there is a difference, at
least for heart health, whether they get their fluids from
plain water or from sodas,' says Dr. Chan.
According to Dr. Chan, this is the first study to record the
association between high water intake and reduced risk of
coronary heart disease. 'This study needs to be replicated,
and if similar results are found, then this would be the
cheapest and simplest method of preventing coronary heart
disease that could be imagined,'adds Gary Fraser, MD,
PhD,cardiologist at the LLU Heart Institute, and principal
investigator for the new Adventist Health Study
Tim Tyler
: - Research: Got Water?
: Finally, an interesting study found a direct correlation
: between water intake and heart disease. Yet another reason
: to drink enough water. In fact, this study actually found
: that drinking enough water was as strong a predictor of
: heart disease as exercise or smoking! I'm off to refill my
: water glass!
: April 25, 2002 (press release)
: Loma Linda University reveals first study on correlation
: between high water intake and lowered coronary heart disease [...]
URL for the story: http://www.llu.edu/news/pr/042502water.html
tcomeau
I don't think it surprises anyone that not being properly hydrated has
far-reaching health consequences. All of the body's processes occur in
the presence of H2O.
What is surprising is that we have never quantified our H2O
requirements through basic scientific research.
Here we have a study that relates water or lack of it to cancer. What
about how it relates to the many other ailments and concerns that
affect mankind? Diabetes, Alzheimers, Colitis and other similar lower
intestinal disease, mental health, kidney stones, skin disorders,
blood disorders, immunological conditions, susceptibility to viral and
bacterial infections, calcium deficiencies, nutrition absorption, etc.
With water being such a fundamental need of the human body, why do we
not know more about it and its effect on our health? Why are we
guessing as to the optimum amount to drink?
TC
tcomeau
> - Research: Got Water?
>
Ooops, typo....
I meant to say that the study relates to *heart disease* not *cancer*.
but that's another area that could be looked into.....
TC
MARK D....
> With water being such a fundamental need of the human body, why do we
> not know more about it and its effect on our health? Why are we
> guessing as to the optimum amount to drink?
>
Answer: because water isn't a *patentable* agent.
M.
Gym Bob
http://www.mgwater.com/marxneut.shtml
"Priapism" <with...@aol.comehither> wrote in message
news:20030514015447...@mb-m10.aol.com...
Chris Jain
Intresting moniker, Priapism! :-)
> Neither total fluid intake, nor intake of other fluids
> combined showed this reduced risk. Instead, for women, high
> intake (5 or more glasses a day) of other fluids showed a
> greatly increased risk of coronary heart disease.
>
> 'People need to be made aware that there is a difference, at
> least for heart health, whether they get their fluids from
> plain water or from sodas,' says Dr. Chan.
This is the part that I'm skeptical of. I did a few searches but was
unable to find any free way to see how they define "other fluids"--are
they limiting this to just caffeinated drinks? (Well I guess I
could've paid to read the full-text article of the study but I wasn't
that curious. :-) Conceptually, it just doesn't make sense to me that
the water content of fruit, juice, tea, lemonaide, etc. wouldn't have
the same effect as "plain water." Have the results of this study
been replicated?
Gym Bob
by more fluids count.
"Chris Jain" <cj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:771ea75.03051...@posting.google.com...
suzee
I believe that plain water doesn't need to be digested in the way that
fruit juices, teas or other liquids do, therefore being assimilated much
easier.
sue
Moosh:)
wrote:
>I understand it that any fluids that don't have to be processed or flushed
>by more fluids count.
Huh? Care to explain?
Moosh:)
Eric Bohlman
> I believe that plain water doesn't need to be digested in the way that
> fruit juices, teas or other liquids do, therefore being assimilated
> much easier.
You believe incorrectly. The water in other beverages is just as
biologically available as plain water; it's not chemically different. And
remember that unless your digestive system is *completely* empty as a
result of a medical procedure or several days of fasting, any plain water
you drink is going to mix with other things you've eaten or drank.
The failure to "assimilate" water, plain or not, is known as diarrhea. If
it doesn't come out the other end, it was absorbed. It's *possible* that
other beverage components could influence the *speed* with which water was
absorbed, but that would only matter under conditions of heavy water loss.
There's almost certainly a spurious correlation here, caused by the water-
drinkers differing in some other way from the other-beverage drinkers.
Moosh:)
Have you given up on the theory that there is no science in calorie
balance, and started on "no science in water requirements"?
Good luck :)
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
Umm, may I politely suggest a physiology text?
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
wrote:
>The failure to "assimilate" water, plain or not, is known as diarrhea.
That's a classic, Eric. I've filed that, Thanks :)
Moosh:)
MARK D....
> >> Finally, an interesting study found a direct correlation
> >> between water intake and heart disease. Yet another reason
> >> to drink enough water.
I assume that the illiterate moron who typed this *actually* meant that the
study found 'an *inverse* correlation between water intake and heart
disease'. Otherwise we are certainly *not* in the presence of 'yet another
reason to drink enough [sic] water'.
M.
tcomeau
>
> Have you given up on the theory that there is no science in calorie
> balance, and started on "no science in water requirements"?
> Good luck :)
>
>
>
> Moosh:)
I haven't given up anything. I've already made my points on the topic
of the so-called "calorie balance". Damned good points too, I might
add.
My points on the lack of knowledge in both these areas are not
entirely without merit.
Even you must admit that I've raised some good questions on both these
topics.
Eh?
TC
Ob-1
works and stick with it. 32 unces a day is considered minimum..(that's
one quart). If the weather is sweltering HOT and you perspire a lot..then
increase the intake...LOGIC is your best friend. IF you're OBESE..then it
takse more to support you as well. B-0b1
"Señora Momenta" wrote:
--
Worlds’ largest producer of Lin Xhi Synergisms
tcomeau
I don't profess to know all, unlike some around here that who
extravagant claims about their background and history in nutrition. I
also don't get *paid* to know this stuff, like you and your ilk.
I am not asking how the "early diet promoters" learned what they know.
I am asking you how *you* know what you know. Did you learn it thru
true scientific study ot thru swag (stupid wild-ass guessing)?
You just suggested that the nutritional scientists adhere to the
concept of 8 glasses of water a day because some diet promoter once
suggested it. Why and how is this possible? Why is this suggested
intake not based on real science? What other dietary recomendations
are based on such flimsy nonsense?
You are the nutritional expert, not I. Can you explain why you have no
science whatsoever behind this recomendation of 8 glasses of water per
day? If there is no more science behind it than what some "diet
promoter" once suggested, how can you accept it as valid?
How can any self-respecting nutritional scientist promote such an
idea? Since I can't find a self-respecting nutritional scientist to
ask this question, I'll ask you. Huh?
TC
J999w
right to me.
The way I figure it: the kidneys should make about 30cc's of urine per hour
minimum to stay healthy. If not, it's close to that. 30 x 24 = 720 cc.
Probably on the low side for the average adult. After a few beers you can pea
that out in one try ! So, to balance that output, you'd need 720cc's of fluid
in. How many cc's in a glass? I'm guessing 100? 100cc per glass x 8 glasses =
800cc in. More required on hot days or during exercise.
Sound reasoning or off base? (and why !)
bjorn
Ob-1
J999w wrote:
--
Ob-1
friend...B-0b1
tcomeau wrote:
--
pbeyer
tcomeau wrote:
Again showing how little you know and understand (and how poorly you understand what was said). First,
I've never claimed to be an expert but you keep categorizing me that way. I do read and use the science
that is available to me (and to you).
The fluid requirements are based on renal solute load, insensible loss and metabolism. You might go read
about what that means. It's science and it's been known for a long time.
J999w
What?
Is this math too complicated??
bjorn
Moosh:)
>"Moosh:)" <w...@woo.woo> wrote in message news:<7pfbcvs6ilk8obk1o...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> Have you given up on the theory that there is no science in calorie
>> balance, and started on "no science in water requirements"?
>> Good luck :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Moosh:)
>
>I haven't given up anything. I've already made my points on the topic
>of the so-called "calorie balance". Damned good points too, I might
>add.
But you didn't respond to my last post on the topic. I thought you'd
seen the light. I will paste it below in case you missed it.
>My points on the lack of knowledge in both these areas are not
>entirely without merit.
Only if you have closed your eyes to the science of the past 100
years.
>Even you must admit that I've raised some good questions on both these
>topics.
Not really. You deny accepted facts and claim that no work has ever
been done. Just open a few books.
Youi have been told repeatedly that weight loss can ONLY occur when
calorie intake is less than expenditure, and you keep banging your
head against a brick wall about it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On 8 Apr 2003 07:32:52 -0700, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
>Señora Momenta <send...@spamreceipt.biz.au> wrote in message news:<upn49v8hsogjt1f2g...@4ax.com>...
>> On 3 Apr 2003 09:59:05 -0800, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
>>
>> >Se ra Moment <send...@spamreceipt.biz.au> wrote in message news:<o1in8vc3djbhfli4k...@4ax.com>...
>> ><snip>
>> >>
>> >> But again, you have no evidence for your claim that you can eat as
>> >> many calories as you like above your eucaloric allotment and lose
>> >> weight.
>> >> <snip>
>> >> Moosh:)
>> >
>> >I have never made this claim.
>> >
>> >My claim is the opposite.
>> >
>> >Given a high carb diet you can restrict calories and still gain
>> >weight. Restrict carbs and you can lose weight with less calorie
>> >restriction.
>>
>> And you say this is opposite?
>> You need a remedial English course
>
>Ok, maybe not diametrically opposite but certainly not what you
>suggest my claims to be.
I don't suggest anything. It's all there inn the archives. I'm just a
bit busy at the moment, but if I have time later....
>> >Example:
>> >
>> >A person consumes 2000 kcal/day on a high carb diet and gains weight.
>> >Same person consumes 2000 kcal/day on a low-carb diet and their weight
>> >stabilizes or starts to go down.
>>
>> Where have you ever you ever said this?
>> What evidence have you for even this extreme watering down of what you
>> have been trying to cram down our throats?
>> For example: [I couldn't be bothered now, but I might later...]
>>
>
>This has been my point all along.
No, you have claimed the "calorie theory was bogus" remember?
You have repeatedly claimed that macronutrient ratio was the be all
and end all so far as weight control, and calories were irrelevant.
>This is the reason that I say that
>calories are not the end-all and be-all of weight loss.
No you have been saying that macronutrient ratio was.
You said calories didn't matter.
>This is also
>why I question the application of the law of thermo-dynamics to an
>open system.
I doubt you understand the conservation of energy, when you say things
like this. All calories must be accounted for. I thought you'd finally
got this.
>> >The quality or type of the nutrition is as important as the amount of
>> >calories because the type of food affects how the body stores or does
>> >not store the available 2000 calories. Simple.
>>
>> By how many percent? One or two? In extreme examples?
>>
>
>By enough to make a significant difference.
But there is no evidence for it. Funny that. Are you now going to
repeat the claims that there has been no research and the little, old
stuff was wrong, and the calorie constituents of foods was wrongly
measured?
>> >High carb intake affects insulin and glucagon levels which affects
>> >whether and how much the body stores fat or does not store fat.
>>
>> No, they regulate levels of many things to keep the body stable. The
>> factor that determines whether the body stores fat or does not store
>> fat is the amount of excess calories over expenditure. Zero or
>> negativve, and no fat is stored. Positive and it is. It is that
>> simple.
>
>Bullsh*t. It can't be this simple. Otherwise low-calorie weight-loss
>programs would work in 95%+ of cases.
They do when adhered to. You are still confusing yourself with those
who start a diet, and then lapse -- 95% of folks.
>And we all know that this isn't
>the case, don't we?
I can well believe that 95% of overweight folks who start a diet,
lapse.
>> >Amount of available calories is not the only factor as to whether or
>> >not it is stored as fat or simply goes thru the system or gets used
>> >for tissue re-building.
>>
>> No it's ninety something percent of the factors. On a balanced diet,
>> it is even more.
>> What do you mean by "simply goes thru the system"?
>
>Doesn't get turned into fat.
I didn't ask what doesn't happen to it, I asked what happens to it.
You will never know what is going on if you don't account for every
calorie. Waving your arms dismissively and saying that some "doesn't
get turned into fat" won't improve your feeble understanding one bit..
>> >The human body is a *little* more complicated than what the
>> >low-calorie/low-fat theorists believe.
>>
>> Which ones are you referring to?
>>
>
>You for one. And every yahoo that blindly adheres to the concept that
>controlling weight is just a matter of caloric math, which btw fails
>in 95%+ of cases.
Are you terminally dense? That 95% is the folks who abandon the diet.
The diet works 100% of the time IF adhered to.
>> What do these "low-calorie/low-fat theorists" believe?
>
>The same bullshit that you've been peddling.
The scientific facts, verifiable by proper experiments, not guessed at
with a bathroom scale? Your 20 lb loss could be anything. Do you know
whether it is fat, water, or lean body mass, or a mix of all of them?
Moosh:)
John the Man
>From: "Moosh:)" w...@woo.woo
>On 17 May 2003 22:27:38 -0700, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
>>> Have you given up on the theory that there is no science in calorie
>>> balance, and started on "no science in water requirements"?
>>> Good luck :)
>>I haven't given up anything.
Poor Mush Brain, ... Even the kooks are against you.
Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
Intermittent reinforcements have been scientifically proven to be effective,
... Witness the parade of Kooks on smn.
Moosh:)
Probably the same reason that the length of a piece of string is not
based on science.
>What other dietary recomendations
>are based on such flimsy nonsense?
Oh, ad libitum fat will lose you weight, carbs cause weight gain
irrespective of calories taken in, many folk remedies, and
supplements. The list goes on.
>You are the nutritional expert, not I. Can you explain why you have no
>science whatsoever behind this recomendation of 8 glasses of water per
>day?
Some folk need four glasses, some need 16 or even 32. Sheesh we are
not all the same and neither is the climate.
>If there is no more science behind it than what some "diet
>promoter" once suggested, how can you accept it as valid?
Because it is right in the middle of what most folks drink, and the
kidneys are capable of adjusting to almost any intake. Try a
physiology book, please.
>How can any self-respecting nutritional scientist promote such an
>idea? Since I can't find a self-respecting nutritional scientist to
>ask this question, I'll ask you. Huh?
What is the question, again?
"Now, what have I got?"
Frank Spencer in Some Mothers Do Have 'em.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOHDE <"My genes do *not* influence my weight!"> GOHDE
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
>Water IS essential.
To humans.
>it works on a weight to water ratio...so find what
>works and stick with it.
Drink if you are thirsty.
>32 unces a day is considered minimum..
From foods or as water on what individual in what climate?
A stupid generalisation IMHO.
>(that's
>one quart). If the weather is sweltering HOT and you perspire a lot..then
>increase the intake...LOGIC is your best friend.
Or your thirst?
>IF you're OBESE..then it
>takse more to support you as well. B-0b1
In what way?
MattLB
> >>> Have you given up on the theory that there is no science in calorie
> >>> balance, and started on "no science in water requirements"?
> >>> Good luck :)
>
> >>I haven't given up anything.
>
> Poor Mush Brain, ... Even the kooks are against you.
>
> Ha, ... Hah, Ha!
>
> Intermittent reinforcements have been scientifically proven to be effective,
> ... Witness the parade of Kooks on smn.
Yes, leading the parade is John the Man, followed by Sir John, N-H-P, Dr
S.Geek and bringing up the rear it's John 'De Man'. Oh and what luck
they're all right behind the 'Donate blood' float.
MattLB
tcomeau
> Obviously you've NOT ever had to work 8 hrs in a boiling hot SUN...8 glasses would NEVER cut it
> friend...B-0b1
>
.....sigh.....
Generally speaking, when we are generally speaking we are not speaking
about the extremes...
We are speaking of the average person in average circumstances.
I have, in fact, worked *many* days at hard labour in scorching
temperatures. And yes, 8 glasses did not cut it. So the f**k what? It
is virtually irrelevant to this discussion.
TC
karli
gospel....Does anyone ever come close to following it? No. But
everyone when asked will automatically say that you need 8 glasses a
day....
Ive heard that you should only drink water when you are thirsty,
because you are only going to end up eliminating the excess
anyways....
Ob-1
inradius from nowhere, armed ONLY with a 2.5 liter Water Cannister...you just
MIGHT "get the Flick"..B-0b1
John the Man wrote:
--
Worlds’ largest producer of Lin Xhi (Kombucha) Synergisms
Ob-1
"Moosh:)" wrote:
--
tcomeau
> On 17 May 2003 22:27:38 -0700, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
>
> >"Moosh:)" <w...@woo.woo> wrote in message news:<7pfbcvs6ilk8obk1o...@4ax.com>...
Moosh,
I have stopped trying to convince you of anything.
If you can't read what I've written so far and see that I bring up
some interesting points, then obviously you are entirely closed-minded
on the subject.
Every science has to step back once in a while and review all of its
assumptions. There is enough evidence that the nutritional sciences
have to step back and have a good long look at the entire concept of
weight management and the calorie theory.
If you can't see the inconsistencies staring you in the face, that is
your problem. Deal with it.
Have a great life.
TC
Ob-1
counting out the Peanuts that Gohde eats daily! Can't you hear "IT"
TRUMPET and raise its' trunk to shower off its back?? Smile! LMAO.
B-0b1
J999w wrote:
--
Worlds’ largest producer of Lin Xhi (Kombucha) Synergisms
Ob-1
depending on height, weight, and whether or not a fat Brain is included. "Renal sollute Loads" also sais it
very precisely. ( part of my "game-plan that clears and heals kydneys that are supposed to be NON curable
once injured) I have seen MUCH trouble where Kidney problems are involved. "It AINT funny neither"
When real problems exhibit it means that Lungs and Heart are also involved AND possibly Liver failures as
well. COPD and related KILLERS are lurking! My Wife died from a related malady and it was horrible...I
wouldn't have wished it on my WORST enemy! She also had a lot of help from SECOND_HAND smoke from crazed
tobacco users...Another of my most despised of "popular" habits in this INSANE paradigm in which we live
and die. . To have to walk through a cloud of "ciggy" fumes just to get into and out of a store angers me
beyond control. B-0b1
pbeyer wrote:
--
J999w
Lord help anyone taking advise from this group.
bjorn
Gym Bob
"tcomeau" <tund...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b550f406.03052...@posting.google.com...
Gym Bob
the time and don't feel that good. I feel better with a few less but worse
with a lot less.
"karli" <kkos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:85c498a8.03052...@posting.google.com...
tcomeau
> tcomeau wrote:
>
> > pbeyer <pbe...@xspamkumc.edu> wrote in message news:<3EBA8854...@xspamkumc.edu>...
> > > tcomeau wrote:
> > >
> > > > pbeyer <pbe...@xspamkumc.edu> wrote in message >
> > > > > The 8 glasses a day was one of the recommendations that came in the "Stillman" diet era (a high
> > > > > pro, low carb type diet). Likely recommended to cover the backside of the authors of such diets
> > > > > which had potentially, very high renal solute loads. Such diets may also promote lithogenesis so
> > > > > extra water was promoted for that as well.
> > > > > Water was also advocated to increase satiety replace beverages that were calorie containing.
> > > > > Pete
> > > >
<snip>
>
> Again showing how little you know and understand (and how poorly you understand what was said). First,
> I've never claimed to be an expert but you keep categorizing me that way. I do read and use the science
> that is available to me (and to you).
> The fluid requirements are based on renal solute load, insensible loss and metabolism. You might go read
> about what that means. It's science and it's been known for a long time.
Read the above two paragraphs, both written by your own hand. You have
made two statements regarding why we are recomending 8 glasses of
water a day.
Which is it? The first statement or the second?
I know what I read, and I understand what you wrote. And yes, it
amounts to little.
Which is it?
TC
tcomeau
I make a point of ensuring that I drink when I am thirsty. I carry a
water bottle with me at all times.
On a typical day, with no extremes of temperature or physical
exertion, I may drink up to about 5 tall glasses per day. Rarely more.
I am 5'9" and 180 lbs.
For smaller people, I think 8 glasses a day would be pushing it.
Just my opinion.
TC
Moosh:)
>"Gym Bob" <NonA...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<af257494d45e6ef8b46d09f98980d435@TeraNews>...
>> Many people do drink 8 glasses or more per day. I have done it but I pee all
>> the time and don't feel that good. I feel better with a few less but worse
>> with a lot less.
>>
>> "karli" <kkos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:85c498a8.03052...@posting.google.com...
>> > I like the way everyone automatically accepts the 8 glass rule as
>> > gospel....Does anyone ever come close to following it? No. But
>> > everyone when asked will automatically say that you need 8 glasses a
>> > day....
>> >
>> > Ive heard that you should only drink water when you are thirsty,
>> > because you are only going to end up eliminating the excess
>> > anyways....
>
>I make a point of ensuring that I drink when I am thirsty. I carry a
>water bottle with me at all times.
Oh dear, one of those weirdos :) Do you carry a thermos and cut lunch
to go to the coerner shop? Office girls in the city carry the water
bottle between desks. I can't work out if it's thought to stave off
wrinkles or alzheimers. Maybe it's just a fashion statement.
>On a typical day, with no extremes of temperature or physical
>exertion, I may drink up to about 5 tall glasses per day. Rarely more.
>I am 5'9" and 180 lbs.
>
>For smaller people, I think 8 glasses a day would be pushing it.
Why do you feel the need to drink the instant you feel thirsty?
The body is quite capable of postponing water replenishment for hours
if little sweating is occurring. All the glucose that is being burned
for energy constantly is producing water in the body.
Moosh:)
Moosh:)
I suggest YOU read them again, coz there is NO contradiction AFAICS.
Both apply.
Moosh:)
wrote:
>Many people do drink 8 glasses or more per day. I have done it but I pee all
>the time and don't feel that good. I feel better with a few less but worse
>with a lot less.
So what's your problem? Drink what your body tells you it needs.
A: Top posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
tcomeau
> On 22 May 2003 08:58:00 -0700, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
>
> >"Gym Bob" <NonA...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<af257494d45e6ef8b46d09f98980d435@TeraNews>...
> >> Many people do drink 8 glasses or more per day. I have done it but I pee all
> >> the time and don't feel that good. I feel better with a few less but worse
> >> with a lot less.
> >>
> >> "karli" <kkos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:85c498a8.03052...@posting.google.com...
> >> > I like the way everyone automatically accepts the 8 glass rule as
> >> > gospel....Does anyone ever come close to following it? No. But
> >> > everyone when asked will automatically say that you need 8 glasses a
> >> > day....
> >> >
> >> > Ive heard that you should only drink water when you are thirsty,
> >> > because you are only going to end up eliminating the excess
> >> > anyways....
> >
> >I make a point of ensuring that I drink when I am thirsty. I carry a
> >water bottle with me at all times.
>
> Oh dear, one of those weirdos :) Do you carry a thermos and cut lunch
> to go to the coerner shop? Office girls in the city carry the water
> bottle between desks. I can't work out if it's thought to stave off
> wrinkles or alzheimers. Maybe it's just a fashion statement.
>
Why are you being an ass? I don't have easy access to decent water at
my workplace. And when I'm mobile I don't want to go hunting for water
at a store. When I'm thirsty I want a drink of water. Simple.
> >On a typical day, with no extremes of temperature or physical
> >exertion, I may drink up to about 5 tall glasses per day. Rarely more.
> >I am 5'9" and 180 lbs.
> >
> >For smaller people, I think 8 glasses a day would be pushing it.
>
I am average height and weight. They suggest that the average person
should drink 8 glasses. That is approx. 62.5% more than I find
comfortable.
> Why do you feel the need to drink the instant you feel thirsty?
> The body is quite capable of postponing water replenishment for hours
> if little sweating is occurring. All the glucose that is being burned
> for energy constantly is producing water in the body.
>
>
> Moosh:)
Why should I not satisfy my bodies need for water, when it needs it? I
find that if I feel thirst for very long, my concentration wanes.
I've known a great many people, myself included, who go thru life with
their focus on everything but their bodies. Thirsty? Ignore it, get a
drink later. Hungry? ignore it, it isn't lunch yet, besides I'll go
hungry for a while 'cos I wouldn't mind losing a little weight. Tired,
but I want to party some more, I'll sleep later.
Most of us go thru life, deprived of proper nutrition, deprived of
adequate H2O and deprived of sleep. After a lifetime of this cavalier
attitude, we are no longer in touch with what it feels like to be
properly fed, properly hydrated and get adequate sleep.
But we are tough, right? Don't be such a sissy, right? That is until
we suffer a breakdown, heart attack, stroke or cancer. I've seen this
happen in more than just several cases.
I'll keep my water bottle, thank you very much. I'll also be careful
about eating too many carbs. And I'll try to ensure that I get enough
sleep. It works for me. I eat well and feel well.
TC
Moosh:)
Malcolm) wrote:
>tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) writes:
>
>>They suggest that the average person
>>should drink 8 glasses. That is approx. 62.5% more than I find
>>comfortable.
>
>Presumably "they" mean the average person, doing the average amount of
>physical activity, in an average climate, because temperature,
>humidity, and activity, have a *very* large effect on the amount of
>water one needs.
>
>What is the average level of physical activity, climate, etc., to
>which this water drinking rule applies? Or does it only apply to
>Americans? I notice that some visiting American students need to drink
>regularly from water bottles all the way through a one hour lecture,
>something that European students don't seem to need.
Alzheimers will strike if you let the hydration drop :)
I carry water at all times for the leaky radiator in my son's old
banger :)
"What have I got?"
Moosh:)
Fine, but that's not what you said : "I carry a water bottle with me
at all times."
>> >On a typical day, with no extremes of temperature or physical
>> >exertion, I may drink up to about 5 tall glasses per day. Rarely more.
>> >I am 5'9" and 180 lbs.
>> >
>> >For smaller people, I think 8 glasses a day would be pushing it.
>>
>
>I am average height and weight. They suggest that the average person
>should drink 8 glasses. That is approx. 62.5% more than I find
>comfortable.
So don't drink it. It is so silly this mantra of "8 glasses of water
per day". Where do you live? What's the season, what do you do each
day, how big is a glass? Drink when you are thirsty, or when you can
get to water reasonably soon after.
>> Why do you feel the need to drink the instant you feel thirsty?
>> The body is quite capable of postponing water replenishment for hours
>> if little sweating is occurring. All the glucose that is being burned
>> for energy constantly is producing water in the body.
>Why should I not satisfy my bodies need for water, when it needs it?
No need? Your body can cope admirably (unless you have some disease or
abnormality)
>I
>find that if I feel thirst for very long, my concentration wanes.
You must be losing water fast. I'd carry some water in these
circumstances.
>I've known a great many people, myself included, who go thru life with
>their focus on everything but their bodies. Thirsty? Ignore it, get a
>drink later. Hungry? ignore it, it isn't lunch yet, besides I'll go
>hungry for a while 'cos I wouldn't mind losing a little weight.
Not a bad idea :)
>Tired,
>but I want to party some more, I'll sleep later.
Not generally wise as you get older :)
>Most of us go thru life, deprived of proper nutrition, deprived of
>adequate H2O and deprived of sleep.
Not in my experience. Maybe you live in a peculiar environment.
Most folk I know eat sleep and drink perfectly well. Maybe I live in a
peculiar environment.
>After a lifetime of this cavalier
>attitude, we are no longer in touch with what it feels like to be
>properly fed, properly hydrated and get adequate sleep.
Really? As I said, not in my experience. Americans in general are not
underfed. Hydration is not likely to be a problem in this
circumstance.
>But we are tough, right?
More resilisant, I would have said. I don't accept the premise that we
are deprived of these three necessities in general as you assert.
>Don't be such a sissy, right?
If that's a common attitude in your experience. Not mine. I drink when
I'm thirsty, eat at mealtimes and try to sleep as much as I can, and
"sissy" never crossed my mind in this regard.
Now eatin' quiche..... :)
>That is until
>we suffer a breakdown, heart attack, stroke or cancer. I've seen this
>happen in more than just several cases.
Usually due to obesity, you know, food? that stuff that so many folk
forget about, or think sissy to eat? :)
>I'll keep my water bottle, thank you very much.
And I'll keep my security blanket :)
>I'll also be careful
>about eating too many carbs.
I'll be careful about eating too many calories, and refined foods like
packaged fat, and high starch/sugar foods.
>And I'll try to ensure that I get enough
>sleep.
I always try to get as much as I can.
>It works for me. I eat well and feel well.
I'm happy for you. Thanks for sharing :)
sasha
just at meals times, approx 2 glasses a day. Now iv started drinking
6-8 large glasses of water throughout the day n i feeeeeeeeeel great
(im 5ft 3, does that mean im small or medium?). My complexion has
improved (no spots at all) my insides feel good, i feel hungry at the
right times and eat the right amount of portions without feelin
peckish for more. Just one prob tho i keep having to go to the loo
like 8 times a day. But that doesnt bother me coz i know its for the
best. If you love your body then DRINK UP!!!
"Moosh:)" <wo...@wooo.wooo> wrote in message news:<4lvucvop15kaqo8o5...@4ax.com>...