Heallth benefit of Yogurt is ALL bunk!!! (Re: Need Help on Yogurt Culture)
John 'the Man'
> benefits of Yougurt: Fact or Fiction?
Todate, I recieved a total of three replies: 2 public, and 1 private.
"Achim Nolcken Lohse" <4195...@3web.nettax>
<taur...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
The health claims, therein, can be summarized as follows.
1)Probiotics (Friendly Intestinal Bacteria) ...
2)"the active bacteria in yogurt are supposed to help your digestive tract
maintain a healthy bacterial mix and particularly to keep candida albicans
under control."
3)Lactose Intolerance
I will review ONLY these specific health claims. Then I will conclude with
the exact nutritional content of yogurt and my general comments. :-)
---
'1)Probiotics (Friendly Intestinal Bacteria)'
The caller sent who sent me private email actually concluded his post with
the following comment:
"Live bacteria supplementation, as opposed to ... yogurt ... tend to have a
greater effect on the re-colonization and re-balancing of the gut
microflora." Precisely, ... my first thought on this subject is that
taking acidophilus like supplements would be a better and more direct
approach. :-)
I will also relate my own personal experience. I was in the hospital with a
ruptured appendix for 21 days during which I did NOT eat anything. I
was on intravenous antibiotics for most of those 21 days. So, according to
the Probiotics folklore these antibiotics would have totally destroyed ALL
the Friendly Intestinal Bacteria in my body. At the time, I was not aware
of this folklore. Upon my release from the hospital, I ate a complete
normal and unhealthy western diet. I recovered completely. I ate neither
yogurt or took any acidophilus supplements. Case close!!! Probiotics
generally are NOT required or even recommended or anyone remotely breathing.
Mother Nature finds a way to health itself, ... if left alone!!!!
---
'2)candida albicans'
This is basically just another way to state the Probiotics argument. Yes,
Yogurt and 'Lactobacillus acidophilus' has been shown to help some what
"recurrent bacterial vaginosis (BV) and candidal vaginitis." However,
these are health conditions!!! More specifically these are generally
regarded as FEMALE health conditions.
So, number one I would say that unless you have a health condition related
to 'candida albicans' there is no general health benefit from eating
yogurt. :-)
Furthermore, the perfect response to militant females suggesting that a man
should eat yogurt is that men do NOT have a vagina to worry about. :-)
---
'3)Lactose Intolerance'
Yes, a certain segment of the population is allergic to diary products.
Therefore, before, you can accept the argument that diary products are worth
eating, i.e., are good for you. I frankly to do NOT accept this assumption.
Therefore, the 'Lactose Intolerance' argument is mute.
Ergo, there is NO lactose digestion problem in lactose-intolerant subjects,
provided they follow my recommendations to avoid the dairy food group
entirely. :-)
The reasons I give on my web page for avoiding the dairy food group are as
follows:
http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/dietguidelines.html
"The entire Dairy Food Group is a vice, and should be eaten sparingly, if at
all.
- It is unnatural for a Mature Adult to drink milk.
- Very large amounts of Saturated Fat are found in dairy products.
- There are No major health benefits from consuming dairy products.
If you believe other wise, I challenge you to produce the research! While
many individuals have claimed a health benefit for cheese and yogurt, I have
searched the Medline Database and found NOTHING that supports these claims."
====
The exact nutritional content of yogurt is listed at the very bottom of this
post. :-)
There are plenty of healthy foods to choose from if you want to improve your
health. You do NOT have to eat a unnatural food like yogurt(i.e., adults do
NOT drink milk), nor do you have to eat a food item that you do NOT like the
taste of.
I did another Medline search on yogurt. I found topics like: "Yogurt
consumption does not enhance immune function in healthy premenopausal
women," "... increased fibrinogen in the overweight subjects at a 450 ml
consumption daily for 8 weeks," "Yoghurt enriched with Lactobacillus
acidophilus does not lower blood lipids in healthy men and women with normal
to borderline high serum cholesterol levels," "Increased fecal frequency and
gastrointestinal symptoms following ingestion of
galacto-oligosaccharide-containing yogurt," "The consumption of yogurt that
contained the live active bacteria L bulgaricus and S thermophilus does not
appear to enhance immune function in atopic individuals ...," ncreased
excretion of bifidobacteria ... was found after consumption of both yogurts
compared with the prestudy periods, whereas cultural counts of aerobes and
anaerobes were not different," and "... there was no effect on total
cholesterol, total triglycerides, high density lipoproteins cholesterol, or
distribution of electrophoretic lipoprotein fractions that could be
attributed to changing milk or yogurt consumption."
Or, how about this finding? "Despite increases in caloric intakes on all
supplements, no significant increases were found in total, low-density, and
high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. A significant weight gain was seen in
subjects taking yogurt and acidophilus groups; these were the only two
groups showing significant rises in triglyceride levels."
Gee, ... I hardly think that these findings that are publicly available in
Medline indicates a heath benefit from adding yogurt to your diet. :-)
In Conclusion: The alleged Health benefits of Yogurt are ALL bunk!!!
===========
The worst case scenario would come from:
Yogurt, plain, whole milk, 8 grams protein per 8 ounce
Serving size: 1 cup (8 fl oz) = 245.000 gms
Energy (calories) 150.48 cal 8 %RDA
Protein 8.50 g 15 %RDA
Fat (lipid), total 7.96 g 12 %RDA
Saturated 5.14 g 26 %RDA
Monounsaturated 2.19 g 8 %RDA
Polyunsaturated 0.23 g 3 %RDA
Carbohydrate 11.42 g 4 %RDA
Fiber, tot. dietary 0.00 g 0 %RDA
Sugars, total - no value given -*
Cholesterol 31.12 mg 10 %ODA
The Protein / Carbohydrate / Fat percentages are: 22.5 / 47.3 /30.2
This shows way too much fat and NOT enough carbohydrates
The MUFA/SFA ratio is: 1.3 which is below the recommended minimum of 2.
==============
The best case scenario would come from:
Yogurt, plain, skim milk, 13 grams protein per 8 ounce
Serving size: 1 cup (8 fl oz) = 245.000 gms
Energy (calories) 136.64 cal 7 %RDA
Protein 14.04 g 26 %RDA
Fat (lipid), total 0.44 g 1 %RDA
Saturated 0.28 g 1 %RDA
Monounsaturated 0.12 g 0 %RDA
Polyunsaturated 0.01 g 0 %RDA
Carbohydrate 18.82 g 6 %RDA
Fiber, tot. dietary 0.00 g 0 %RDA
Sugars, total - no value given -*
Cholesterol 4.41 mg 1 %ODA
The Protein / Carbohydrate / Fat percentages are: 41.5% / 2.9% /55.6%
This shows way too much Protein.
The MUFA/SFA ratio is: still 1.3 which is below the recommended minimum of
2.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Introducing the award winning www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com
-- a simple health program that really works!
"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such a wholesale
return of conjecture for such a trifling investment of fact."
-- Mark Twain
John 'the Man'
news:bWEs6.3197$Im6.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > I would be interested in reading about your opinions on the alleged
health
> > benefits of Yogurt: Fact or Fiction?
> Todate, I received a total of three replies: 2 public, and 1 private.
Ah!!!, ... ah!!!, ... Ah!!!
Again, ... I not spot the typos until the post was sent out. :-(
Ergo, ... I am making the following corrections.
My post should have read:
...
The caller sent who sent me private email actually contradicted themselves
by concluding their post with the following comment: "Live bacteria
supplementation, as opposed to ... yogurt ... tend to have a greater effect
on the re-colonization and re-balancing of the gut microflora." Precisely,
... my first thought on this subject is that taking acidophilus like
supplements would be a better and more direct approach. :-)
...
Mother Nature finds a way to heal itself, ... if left alone!!!!
...
Yes, a certain segment of the population is allergic to diary products.
However, before, you can accept the argument that yogurt is worth eating by
'Lactose Intolerance' individuals you have to accept the argument that the
diary food group is good for you. I frankly do NOT accept this
assumption. Therefore, the 'Lactose Intolerance' argument is mute
...
The worst case scenario would come from:
Yogurt, plain, whole milk, 8 grams protein per 8 ounce
Serving size: 1 cup (8 fl oz) = 245.000 gms
The Protein / Carbohydrate / Fat percentages are: 22.5% / 30.2% / 47.3%
This shows way too much fat and NOT enough carbohydrates
The MUFA/SFA ratio is: 1.3 which is below the recommended minimum of 2.
Matti Narkia
cause dementia, jury is still out on that, and here in Finland we have oats
yogurt which may help to reduce the total cholesterol a tiny bit.
--
Matti Narkia
John 'the Man'
news:l8d6btccv8rrhfq8f...@4ax.com...
(Ah, ... that explains it ... you are from Finland.)
Yogurt made from oats? News to me.
What are the health benefits of including the diary food group in the diet
of a mature adult human?
I say it is best to EXCLUDE it, 100%. :-)
Matti Narkia
<QVGs6.3293$Im6.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "John 'the Man'"
<De...@NaturalHealthPerspective.com> wrote:
>
>Yogurt made from oats? News to me.
>
>What are the health benefits of including the diary food group in the diet
>of a mature adult human?
>
water, thefore it cannot br categorized as diary food :-). The appearence, but
not the taste, resembles regular yogurt. I think that the product was developed
by a professor of nutrition in a local university here.
--
Matti Narkia
John 'the Man'
news:tj96bt8vl3vs6ojgk...@4ax.com...
> I do not believe anyone should eat anything which they do not like. If
you
> don't like yogurt you should not eat it. If you are being confronted with
> militant females who want you to eat yogurt, just say no. There are other
ways
> to get your nutrients.
In the USA, there is a famous comedian with the name of Bill Cosby. Bill
Cosby has been around in the comedian business for a long time.
Currently, there is an American Television Commercial making its rounds
where Bill Cosby does a comedy sketch about Yogurt. It seems that his wife
wants him to eat Yogurt, but Cosby balks back that "Yogurt tastes like Bad
Breath!" It is a very funny routine. It is what I was thinking about when
I wrote militant female. It is a pretty well know fact, that females have
been nagging men to eat yogurt for a long time. So, long that Bill Cosby
now has a comedy sketch on it. Without women historically nagging men to
eat yogurt, this comedy routine wouldn't work and wouldn't have been funny.
:-)
Dilworth
speak to the others:
Candida albicans is a common cause of vaginitis in females. However, in
immunocompromised patients (those with diabetes, cancer, HIV, etc.)
Candida albicans can be a pathogen for both sexes and in many body sites
besides the vagina.
It can cause acute/chronic esophagitis when it overgrows the mouth. It
can also cause respiratory infection (we had a positive bronchial
brushing for yeast last night at the lab). It can and does overgrow the
intestinal tract when patients are on heavy antibiotics. I'm not sure
if there is a treatment per se to this, except to stop antibiotics. It
can infect the blood. Its mode is by colonizing indwelling catheter
tips. Patients in ICU's that have many indwelling lines and are on high
doses of antibiotics leave many portals for its entry. It can cause
skin infections - many diabetics have problems with this, as do
nondiabetics that have their hands wet all the time. It can infect
nails (finger and toenails). It can cause urinary tract infections in
diabetics and immunocompromised patients.
I have personally seen it grow in all these sites and more. Many times,
the "treatment" consists of stopping antibiotics. There are antifungal
agents like Fluconazole and Amphotericin B, but these are reserved for
the most serious cases and are usually used in a hospital setting.
Bacterial vaginosis is a non-yeast caused condition that has to do with
bacterial imbalance, i.e. lack of Lactobacilli in the vagina.
I personally don't like the taste or consistency of yogurt, so don't eat
it for that reason alone.
Also, it is spelled "dairy."
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology
Fred & michele
<"It is a pretty well know fact, that females have been nagging men to eat
yogurt for a long time.">
I've never nagged anybody to eat anything they don't want to -- very rude.
Michele
su-t...@webtv.net
i have never calculated the percentages that you did, concerning
protein, carbohydrates, & fat.
how did you do it? what formula did you use?
thanks.
susan, su_texas
John 'the Man'
news:3573-3AB...@storefull-264.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> i have never calculated the percentages that you did, concerning
> protein, carbohydrates, & fat.
> how did you do it? what formula did you use?
Well, it is pretty simple and very handy. Let us look at the yogurt data,
again.
The worst case scenario would come from:
Yogurt, plain, whole milk, 8 grams protein per 8 ounce
Serving size: 1 cup (8 fl oz) = 245.000 gms
Energy (calories) 150.48 cal 8 %RDA
Protein 8.50 g 15 %RDA
Fat (lipid), total 7.96 g 12 %RDA
Saturated 5.14 g 26 %RDA
Monounsaturated 2.19 g 8 %RDA
Polyunsaturated 0.23 g 3 %RDA
Carbohydrate 11.42 g 4 %RDA
Fiber, tot. dietary 0.00 g 0 %RDA
Sugars, total - no value given -*
Cholesterol 31.12 mg 10 %ODA
From which I had computed that the Protein / Carbohydrate / Fat percentages
are: 22.5 % / 30.2 % / 47.3%.
Only four things in your diet provide calories: Protein, Carbohydrates,
Fat, and Alcohol. So, the formula starts out by multiplying as follows:
Protein ............ 8.50 g x 4 = 34.0
Fat (lipid), total 7.96 g x 9 = 71.6
Carbohydrate 11.42 g x 4 = 45.7
Alcohol ........... 0.00 g x 7 = 0.0
.................................................. -------
Total ........................................ 151.3 calories
Now compare my calculation of 151.3 to the above 'Energy (calories) 150.48'
which came directly from the database. The figures are close enough for our
purposes.
Next, we divide as follows:
Protein ............ 34.0 / 151.3 = 0.225
Fat (lipid), total 71.6 / 151.3 = 0.473
Carbohydrate .. 45.7 / 151.3 = 0.302
Alcohol ........... 0.0 / 151.3 = 0.000
.................................................. -------
Total ........................................ 1.00
Ergo, the Protein / Carbohydrate / Fat percentages are: 22.5 % / 30.2 % /
47.3%.
You simply shift the above decimal places two digits to the right (or
multiply by 100) to convert the above figures to percentages.
Gee, ... Just think about the fact that we both came up with useful
information without a degree in Nutrition and without fully and completely
understanding biochemistry and the human body. We actually managed to
obtain useful information by knowing just what we needed to know, No More
and No Less.
This is kind of how I developed my website. :-)
Jean P Nance
for you, eat all you want. If you like something but it may not be good
for you, have moderate amounts as a treat now and then. (We just finished
a pound of butter, for example. purchased August 15, 2000. Two of us
each consumed a half pound of butter in 7 months.)
If you don't like something but are told it is good for you, forget
it! Food is food, not medicine, and unless it is really bad for the
health, should be chosen and eaten for pleasure. I happen to like yogurt
and eat a lot of it. I don't worry about whether it will or won't protect
me against antibiotic-induced digestive problems, or Candida infections.
If John doesn't like yogurt, he shouldn't eat it. He is going to a lot of
trouble to prove that yogurt is worthless as a medicine for men, and there
is a feminist plot to make them eat it anyway. Nobody is holding him down,
and forcing yogurt down him. :-)
JX Brown
John 'the Man' wrote in message ...
>"Matti Narkia" <mn...@iname.com> wrote in message
>news:l8d6btccv8rrhfq8f...@4ax.com...
>
>> Not all yogurt is made of milk. There is also soy yogurt, which may or
may
>not
>> cause dementia, jury is still out on that, and here in Finland we have
>oats
>> yogurt which may help to reduce the total cholesterol a tiny bit.
>
>(Ah, ... that explains it ... you are from Finland.)
>
>Yogurt made from oats? News to me.
>
>What are the health benefits of including the diary food group in the diet
>of a mature adult human?
1) Good source of easily absorbed calcium.
2) Good source of protein. Non-fat milk products are an extremely palatable
source of fat-free protein.
3) Enjoyable.
>
>I say it is best to EXCLUDE it, 100%. :-)
Well, you should be able to exclude any single food and still be able to
achieve a good, balanced diet. I prefer to exclude Kiwi fruit from my diet
and don't feel that my nutritional status is particularly threatened.
However, if you are going to exclude dairy products you are probably going
to have to consume expensive, chalky, horse-pills to get enough calcium in
your diet.
>--
>John Gohde,
Quentin Grady
>Nobody is holding him down, and forcing yogurt down him. :-)
Do you have an abstract to support your hypothesis? <grin>
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."
John 'the Man'
news:nvb8btobbe73lp7bp...@4ax.com...
> That is a good one.
>
> Ora
>
> On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:13:52 +1200, in sci.med.nutrition you wrote:
>
> >This post not CC'd by email
> > On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Jean P Nance
> ><jp...@bluestem.prairienet.org> wrote:
> >
> >>Nobody is holding him down, and forcing yogurt down him. :-)
> >
> >Do you have an abstract to support your hypothesis? <grin>
Grump on 'Militant Females'.
A 'Militant Female' is as a 'Militant Female' does. :-)
DeMan on 'Militant Females': If the shoe fits, wear it. Life is tough,
ain't it? Having to deal with reality, from time to time.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Introducing the Award Winning www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com
-- a simple health program that really works!
http://info.naturalhealthperspective.com/antioxidants.html
Non-enzymatic antioxidant defense mechanisms, such as vitamins C and E, work
by interrupting chain reactions that would otherwise result in oxidation of
cells caused by release of substances, from cell membranes. So instead of a
process that might involve a hundred molecules, if you have vitamin E around
it might stop after only five reactions.
John 'the Man'
news:9912vq$nas$1...@wildfire.prairienet.org...
> This is a tempest in a teapot.
Only if you are a 'Militant Female.'
The problem is NOT that men don't talk enough. The problem is that women
talk, or is it babble?, too much?
The problem is NOT that men are always Wrong and that women are always
Right. The problem is that men have let the Feminist Movement destroy
humanity for far too long without making a peep. Men have been far too
polite to 'Militant Females.' :-(
> If John doesn't like yogurt, he shouldn't eat it. He is going to a lot of
> trouble to prove that yogurt is worthless as a medicine for men, and there
> is a feminist plot to make them eat it anyway. Nobody is holding him down,
> and forcing yogurt down him. :-)
And, 'Militant Females,' such as yourself, can keep their crap to themselves
every time a man makes a valid point that idiot females, such as yourself,
don't like. :-)
Hey Babe! ... You are NOT going to make me feel guilty for proving
my case. I said show me health benefits of yogurt and you came up short!
And, I am going to continue to have a good laugh along with Bill Cosby on
the human condition. :-)
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Introducing the Award Winning www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com
-- a simple health program that really works!
http://info.naturalhealthperspective.com/antioxidants.html
John 'the Man'
> John 'the Man' wrote in message ...
> >What are the health benefits of including the diary food group in the
diet
> >of a mature adult human?
> 1) Good source of easily absorbed calcium.
> 2) Good source of protein. Non-fat milk products are an extremely
palatable
> source of fat-free protein.
> 3) Enjoyable.
You must be a spokesperson for the dairy industry?
Let us NOT forget the real problem here. The dairy food group is an
excellant source of EXCESS saturated fat!!!!
And, let us NOT forget that drinking milk is totally unnatural for any
mature adult mammal.
> >I say it is best to EXCLUDE it, 100%. :-)
> However, if you are going to exclude dairy products you are probably going
> to have to consume expensive, chalky, horse-pills to get enough calcium in
> your diet.
Hah, ... Ha, ... Hah!
You have obviously been duped by the dairy industry!!!
No one can survive without drinking Milk. Yeah, ... Right, ... Sure!
Funny, how us mature adult humans NEVER drank milk, like we moderns do,
prior to the year 1900? Could that be the work of the dairy industry?
Funny, how every mature adult mammal on the face of this earth grows strong
bones without drinking cows milk?
Could it be that a healthy diet provides what Mother Nature requires for
growing strong bones?
Or, it could it be that you eat crap? And, drink crap like milk?
Low Fat milk is full of SFA's.
Skim milk is like drinking a glass of chalk. :-(
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Introducing the Award Winning www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com
-- a simple health program that really works!
http://info.naturalhealthperspective.com/antioxidants.html
JX Brown
hark...@suespammers.org wrote in message
<84E9C8BA7F28A023.DA86D451...@lp.airnews.net>...
>"JX Brown" <jxb...@xyz.xyz> wrote:
>
>>1) Good source of easily absorbed calcium.
>>2) Good source of protein. Non-fat milk products are an extremely
palatable
>>source of fat-free protein.
>>3) Enjoyable.
>>
>
>'De Man' wrote:
>>>
>>>I say it is best to EXCLUDE it, 100%. :-)
>>
>>Well, you should be able to exclude any single food and still be able to
>>achieve a good, balanced diet. I prefer to exclude Kiwi fruit from my
diet
>>and don't feel that my nutritional status is particularly threatened.
>>However, if you are going to exclude dairy products you are probably going
>>to have to consume expensive, chalky, horse-pills to get enough calcium in
>>your diet.
>
>Even he occasionally gets something right. Milk calcium is bound
>tightly with casein, a poorly-tolerated and mostly indigestible
>protein, so it not nearly as bioavailable as calcium from green
>veggies, and may even cause net calcium loss. Milk from cows is
>poorly tolerated by a substantial minority of the human population, in
>some cases because of the lactose, in others because of casein.
An interesting and common belief of the anti-milk crowd. You are confusing
lactose intolerance with the bioavailability of milk calcium. You don't
need fancy, double-blinded studies to determine calcium availability. All
you need to do is measure calcium going in and calcium coming out. The
difference between the two numbers is the amount that is absorbed.
Disgusting though it may be, there are actually people who engage in this
sort of science. The data is readily available.
Actually, the calcium in dark leafy greens is usually bound to the oxalate
in the greens, forming calcium oxalate which is then excreted. Calcium
provides a service by taking oxalates out of your gut, but does not get
absorbed well from this source. Greens are still a fine food, but not a
great calcium source.
>
>It can be safely excluded from the human diet without incuring any
>special deficits. OTOH, while the sugar and protein from milk are
>problematical, the fat is generally quite well-tolerated and
>nutritious. In particular, butter is quite beneficial, whereas most
>margarines are not. I have incorporated large amounts of butter and
>heavy cream into my own diet for the past year+, with splendid
>results.
Your cholesterol levels have probably not benefited. I like small amounts
of butter in the diet too.
>
>--
>
>Howard H 330/256/~220 74 lbs down
>Abandoned Low-Fat vegan fad diet in 1998
>Started Healthier Low-Carb Dec 1999
>50/42/38 (pants size)
>Ultimate goal: Nothing jiggles on the treadmill
Alex Brands
> '3)Lactose Intolerance'
> Yes, a certain segment of the population is allergic to diary products.
> Therefore, before, you can accept the argument that diary products are worth
> eating, i.e., are good for you. I frankly to do NOT accept this assumption.
> Therefore, the 'Lactose Intolerance' argument is mute.
First of all, lactose intolerace is not an allergy.
Second of all, the word you are looking for at the end there is "moot"
Alex Brands
>
> I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with 'De Man' on this one.
> Even he occasionally gets something right. Milk calcium is bound
> tightly with casein, a poorly-tolerated and mostly indigestible
> protein,
"mostly indigestible"? Do you have a referenece for that?
Quentin Grady
<abbr...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:
>Second of all, the word you are looking for at the end there is "moot"
Thanks Alex,
I was trying to remember how "moot" was spelt. <grin>
Is "second of all" a local dialect thing. Reminds me of my school
days when I had the misfortune to be in the same class as a genius.
Best wishes and keep smiley-ing.
ka&g
John 'the Man' wrote:
> It is a pretty well know fact, that females have
> been nagging men to eat yogurt for a long time. So, long that Bill Cosby
> now has a comedy sketch on it. Without women historically nagging men to
> eat yogurt, this comedy routine wouldn't work and wouldn't have been funny.
> :-)
women have not been nagging men to eat yogurt. this is complete BS. we have FAR
more important things to nag about:
like lifting the toilet seat (and then putting it back down), picking up dirty
clothes, and putting fresh toilet paper on the holder instead of in the floor.
and guys, please stop picking your noses while driving down the interstate.
john has misrepresented the history of female nagging entirely, and therefore
should be shot....er, i mean sorry.
*******************
Self-conceit may lead to self-destruction. Aesop (~550 BC)
The computer is a moron. Peter Drucker
I'm as pure as the driven slush. Tallulah Bankhead
ka&g
John 'the Man' wrote:
> > This is a tempest in a teapot.
>
> Only if you are a 'Militant Female.'
>
> The problem is NOT that men don't talk enough. The problem is that women
> talk, or is it babble?, too much?
>
> The problem is NOT that men are always Wrong and that women are always
> Right. The problem is that men have let the Feminist Movement destroy
> humanity for far too long without making a peep. Men have been far too
> polite to 'Militant Females.' :-(
>
> And, 'Militant Females,' such as yourself, can keep their crap to themselves
> every time a man makes a valid point that idiot females, such as yourself,
> don't like. :-)
>
> Hey Babe! ... You are NOT going to make me feel guilty for proving
> my case. I said show me health benefits of yogurt and you came up short!
>
i can't imagine why anyone would listen to anything john has to say after
reading this thread. he equates eating yogurt with 'militant' feminism, for
gawd's sake.
he also stated in a prior post that people didn't drink cow's milk prior to
1900. i suppose that he thinks that they didn't enjoy cheese and butter
either--that it's all some sort of modern dairy corp conspiracy: this cheese,
butter, yogurt, milk fetish that people have developed only since 1900.
egads.
--
Soren Dayton
> he also stated in a prior post that people didn't drink cow's milk prior to
> 1900. i suppose that he thinks that they didn't enjoy cheese and butter
> either--that it's all some sort of modern dairy corp conspiracy: this cheese,
> butter, yogurt, milk fetish that people have developed only since 1900.
Well, the use of cows for milk has certainly risen in this period.
And the use of goats and sheep has certainly fallen. Cows simply
produce more milk than any one family can reasonably handle. With a
shift to more specialization in farms, there's been a shift to higher
volume milk production.
So, while overstated, it is not an incoherent point.
Soren
John 'the Man'
news:3AB611CA...@mpinet.net...
> i can't imagine why anyone would listen to anything john has to say after
> reading this thread. he equates eating yogurt with 'militant' feminism,
for
> gawd's sake.
You are the idiot equating eating yogurt with 'militant' feminism. :-)
> he also stated in a prior post that people didn't drink cow's milk prior
to
> 1900. i suppose that he thinks that they didn't enjoy cheese and butter
Your the idiot equating drinking cows milk before 1900 with cheese and
butter. :-)
I stand by ALL my comments. :-)
John 'the Man'
"ka&g" <kaa...@mpinet.net> wrote in message
news:3AB6103A...@mpinet.net...
al...@nospam.com
<hark...@suespammers.org> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with 'De Man' on this one.
>Even he occasionally gets something right. Milk calcium is bound
>tightly with casein, a poorly-tolerated and mostly indigestible
>veggies, and may even cause net calcium loss. Milk from cows is
>poorly tolerated by a substantial minority of the human population, in
>some cases because of the lactose, in others because of casein.
>
>special deficits. OTOH, while the sugar and protein from milk are
>problematical, the fat is generally quite well-tolerated and
>nutritious. In particular, butter is quite beneficial, whereas most
>margarines are not. I have incorporated large amounts of butter and
>heavy cream into my own diet for the past year+, with splendid
>results.
Howard,
Virtually all the resarch on milk is really on *pasteurized
milk*. There does seem to be evidence that those who
comsume *raw* milk see *very* different results. For
instance, people that drink raw milk generally seem to
have much harder teeth and denser bones than the general
population, and seem to enjoy much better health than
most. Unfortunately, the formal research to investigate
these less formal observations hasn't been done. I wonder
why?
I think it is quite possible that cultured milk (yogurts,
kefir, cheeses, etc.) may also be very different than the
pasteurized, skim, holstein milk that almost certainly is
truely bad for human health.
--alan
Dilworth
picking up bovine tuberculosis, Listeria, Salmonella and a host of other
pathogens. Milk is an ideal medium for growing bacteria, which is why
Pasteurization was instituted in the first place.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056759.htm
http://www.foodsafety.wsu.edu/docs/Queso%20Fresco.htm
http://www.hlth.gov.bc.ca/hlthfile/hfile03.html
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1999051810.shtml
Why in the world would you want to take these risks? Also, what source
can you provide that documents exactly why people that drink
unpasteurized milk have harder teeth and denser bones. Have you
personally tested their bones and teeth? By what measurement can you
prove this? Have you performed bone density testing? Is this something
some 19 year old at the health food store told you?
There are reasons why governments mandate pasteurization: they don't
want a full scale public health scare/crisis on their hands!
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology
Achim Nolcken Lohse
<De...@NaturalHealthPerspective.com> wrote:
>"John 'the Man'" <De...@NaturalHealthPerspective.com> wrote in message
>news:bWEs6.3197$Im6.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>> > I would be interested in reading about your opinions on the alleged
>health
>> > benefits of Yogurt: Fact or Fiction?
>
...
>Yes, a certain segment of the population is allergic to diary products.
>However, before, you can accept the argument that yogurt is worth eating by
>'Lactose Intolerance' individuals you have to accept the argument that the
>diary food group is good for you. I frankly do NOT accept this
>assumption. Therefore, the 'Lactose Intolerance' argument is mute
Perhaps not if you're a nomadic sheep or goat herder in Central Asia.
For them, dairy is key to survival.
Achim
axethetax
John 'the Man'
> Perhaps not if you're a nomadic sheep or goat herder in Central Asia.
> For them, dairy is key to survival.
> Achim
Okay, go ahead and 'survive.' Personally, I am interested in 'thriving,'
NOT 'surviving!' There happens to be a difference, you know.
You have my condolences. :-(
al...@nospam.com
Dilworth <bact...@hortonsbay.com> wrote:
>There are also other "benefits" of drinking unpasteurized milk, like
>picking up bovine tuberculosis, Listeria, Salmonella and a host of other
>pathogens.
Yes, you're absolutely right, except that it rarely
if ever happens in reality. In fact, from what I've
seen, these "benefits" occur more often in pasteurized
milk than raw. Many of these same bacteria infest
the vegetables we eat and, in fact, the air we breath.
Do you sterilize all your fresh fruits and vegetables
(and air) before you eat them (breathe it)?
> Milk is an ideal medium for growing bacteria, which is why
>Pasteurization was instituted in the first place.
> [ ... ]
That is the reason given publically because our society
is truly germophobic (much, I'm convinced, to our
dedriment), but it wasn't to kill all those harmful
bacteria, rather to kill the beneficial bacteria (see
below).
I guess you'd better also give us the URLs to places
that tell us that eggs and dietary cholesterol are
bad for us, that hydrogenated vegetable oils are good,
etc. Misinformation is abundant, especially from those
with bias or a financial interest (or those that just
blindly pass along the "accepted" practices).
>Why in the world would you want to take these risks?
What risks? People in extremely good health around the
world and for thousands of years of history drank raw
milk without problems.
> Also, what source
>can you provide that documents exactly why people that drink
>unpasteurized milk have harder teeth and denser bones. Have you
>personally tested their bones and teeth? By what measurement can you
>prove this? Have you performed bone density testing? Is this something
>some 19 year old at the health food store told you?
No, it wasn't a 19 year old in a health food store.
It was a (admittedly brief) study of peoples like the Russian
Georgians, the Tibetans, the Hunzas, the high mountain
Swiss and Bulgarians, the Maasai, among others, and a
variety of informal studies where, yes indeed, tooth
and bone hardness were tested such as:
Meyer M. Silverman DDS, "Teeth and Bone Hardness in Diagnosis
and Prevention of Premature Aging", Journal of the District
of Columbia Dental Society, March 1971.
>There are reasons why governments mandate pasteurization: they don't
>want a full scale public health scare/crisis on their hands!
Pasteurization was created to stop the natural fermentation
processes in wine at the point of optimum taste. Similarly
it was used in milk to stop the natural souring process,
which gave it a longer shelf life (roughly double).
Perhaps the real reason why milk is pasteurized is that
people in the government find it profitable to act in
the best interest of the milk producer's lobby.
--alan
Michael Sierchio
> > Milk is an ideal medium for growing bacteria, which is why
> >Pasteurization was instituted in the first place.
> > [ ... ]
>
> That is the reason given publically because our society
> is truly germophobic (much, I'm convinced, to our
> dedriment), but it wasn't to kill all those harmful
> bacteria, rather to kill the beneficial bacteria (see
> below).
Pasteurization does not kill the bacteria that cause souring or
fermentation -- it does kill tuberculin bacilli and other pathogens
that were, before pasteurization, common in milk.
> What risks? People in extremely good health around the
> world and for thousands of years of history drank raw
> milk without problems.
Intensive dairy farming is relatively new (< 100 yrs) and presents
its own set of health problems for cattle. But herds, even small
ones, are susceptible to zoonotic diseases such as TB. Yes, most
people in the "thousands of years of history" died of communicable
disease. And a very small percentage of humans ever drank cow's
milk. The vast majority of pastoral peoples do not drink milk
for the simple fact that they cannot digest it -- 80% of the world's
population is lactose intolerant. Most use fermentation products
such as cheese and yogurt.
> Pasteurization was created to stop the natural fermentation
> processes in wine at the point of optimum taste. Similarly
> it was used in milk to stop the natural souring process,
> which gave it a longer shelf life (roughly double).
Absolutely incorrect. Pasteurization is concerned only
with reducing the risk from pathogens, not stopping fermentation.
Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Coxiella burnetti, and Brucella abortus
are and have always been common in dairy herds.
Pasteurization does not render the product sterile.
Soren Dayton
> al...@nospam.com wrote:
>
> > > Milk is an ideal medium for growing bacteria, which is why
> > >Pasteurization was instituted in the first place.
> > > [ ... ]
> >
> > That is the reason given publically because our society
> > is truly germophobic (much, I'm convinced, to our
> > dedriment), but it wasn't to kill all those harmful
> > bacteria, rather to kill the beneficial bacteria (see
> > below).
>
> Pasteurization does not kill the bacteria that cause souring or
> fermentation -- it does kill tuberculin bacilli and other pathogens
> that were, before pasteurization, common in milk.
do you realize that bacteria that cause souring are already in milk?
Do you have the faintest idea what you're talking about?
Soren
Michael Sierchio
> do you realize that bacteria that cause souring are already in milk?
> Do you have the faintest idea what you're talking about?
Yes, and yes. Souring is not the problem, and not the
reason for pasteurizing milk. Pathogens are the reason
for pasteurizing milk. Time for some remedial reading
for you -- yes, the bacteria that cause souring are in
milk before pasteurization, and are in milk *after*
pasteurization. Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Coxiella burnetti,
and Brucella abortus are far more heat-sensitive.
I'm not arguing that raw milk doesn't make better Camembert,
that's another issue.
Dilworth
thousands of years. I saw a documentary about this area once on
television, and was startled to hear that most of their food intake is
from milk and dairy. The people looked healthy and in remarkably good
shape. They keep physically fit climbing steep hillsides and riding
horses. They eat lots of yogurt, I believe, but it's been awhile since
I saw the show.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology
Soren Dayton
> Soren Dayton wrote:
>
> > do you realize that bacteria that cause souring are already in milk?
> > Do you have the faintest idea what you're talking about?
>
> Yes, and yes. Souring is not the problem, and not the
> reason for pasteurizing milk.
But you said that pasteurizing doesn't destroy them.
> Pathogens are the reason
> for pasteurizing milk. Time for some remedial reading
> for you -- yes, the bacteria that cause souring are in
> milk before pasteurization, and are in milk *after*
> pasteurization.
SOME bacteria are, certainly. However, given perfectly safe
(unpasteurized) milk, souring it will produce perfectly safe sour
milk. Pasteurizing it and then souring it will, more likely than not,
produce unsafe soured milk.
> Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Coxiella burnetti,
> and Brucella abortus are far more heat-sensitive.
Indeed. And small numbers of these survive too.
Soren
Michael Sierchio
> SOME bacteria are [still extant], certainly. However, given perfectly safe
> (unpasteurized) milk, souring it will produce perfectly safe sour
> milk. Pasteurizing it and then souring it will, more likely than not,
> produce unsafe soured milk.
Given "perfectly safe pasteurized milk" there would be no reason
to pasteurize. No such thing exists as perfectly safe anything,
and the burden is still on the producer to assess and contain
risk. Given that dairies combine milk not only from
different cows but different herds, controlling quality by
testing for pathogens isn't workable.
It is true that modern test techniques -- PCR DNA testing,
etc. -- might eliminate the need for pasteurization, but other
techniques are not sensitive enough to detect low levels of
pathogens. Also, the milk would have to be held in bulk for
days while the test results were pending.
I suppose that one could also argue that testing for HIV instead
of treating all sexual partners as potential vectors (i.e. using
condoms) is reasonable -- I don't think you'd have too many
public health folks agree with you, however.
Soren Dayton
Wow! Were getting to the heart of the issue. I thought that we
didn't do that on usenet!
Michael Sierchio <ku...@tenebras.com> writes:
> Soren Dayton wrote:
>
> > SOME bacteria are [still extant], certainly. However, given perfectly safe
> > (unpasteurized) milk, souring it will produce perfectly safe sour
> > milk. Pasteurizing it and then souring it will, more likely than not,
> > produce unsafe soured milk.
>
> Given "perfectly safe pasteurized milk" there would be no reason
> to pasteurize. No such thing exists as perfectly safe anything,
> and the burden is still on the producer to assess and contain
> risk.
And the distributor, which is where nearly all of the large scale
milk-related food poisoning problems were traced to.
> Given that dairies combine milk not only from
> different cows but different herds, controlling quality by
> testing for pathogens isn't workable.
Indeed. That's why you don't buy from large dairies. Why should I
pay distributers to pay farmers less-than-subsistence amounts for
their milk. I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small
farm about 100 miles from me. It's not that hard. Its better for me,
better for the farmer, and cheaper.
And this farm has NEVER (in 40+ years) made a person sick from the
milk. It really isn't that hard!
> Also, the milk would have to be held in bulk for
> days while the test results were pending.
Again, not in a sensible food economy.
> I suppose that one could also argue that testing for HIV instead
> of treating all sexual partners as potential vectors (i.e. using
> condoms) is reasonable -- I don't think you'd have too many
> public health folks agree with you, however.
No. I would argue, and here's where they would agree with me, that
risk has to be assessed with all the information.
The public health people don't say: "stop having sex" or "ignore it".
Rather, they ask people to be informed and suggest that they make the
right choice for whatever their circumstance is.
With commercial milk I get neither choice nor information.
Soren
Fred & michele
<"I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small farm about 100
miles from me. It's not that hard. Its better for me, better for the
farmer, and cheaper.">
How does one go about finding a farm that sells such products? How do you
find out if they follow proper sanitation procedures, etc. -- are they
regulated or inspected by the board of health? Do you buy the product
directly from the farmer at a the farmer's market or do you buy from a
health food store?
With regards to the eggs: Are they from free-range chickens? Are the
chickens fed a vegetarian diet?
The egg thing has me a bit baffled -- I once thought about trying to raise
ducks & sent away for poultry catalogs & they all said they wouldn't
guarantee the survival of the baby chicks unless I also bought antibiotics
for them. Is the survival rate for chicks NOT given such prophylactic
antibiotics that bad?
Michele
Soren Dayton
> <"I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small farm about 100
> miles from me. It's not that hard. Its better for me, better for the
> farmer, and cheaper.">
>
> How does one go about finding a farm that sells such products?
In many states, its actually illegal to sell raw milk. A standard
work-around is for the farmers to establish co-ops where the co-ops
own the herd and members of the co-op pay room and board costs
corresponding to the amount of milk that you want. Then the excess
milk goes to the dairy.
I found mine by asking around at local CSAs (community supported
agriculture farms). That's where I'd start. A list of CSAs can be
found at:
http://www.biodynamics.com/csa.html
> How do you
> find out if they follow proper sanitation procedures, etc. -- are they
> regulated or inspected by the board of health?
1. You talk to the farmer. See what they do. Ask them what their
history is. Talk to the farmers that referred you to them.
2. In the case of the farm that I get my milk from, the milk is
inspected because some goes to the commercial dairies.
> Do you buy the product
> directly from the farmer at a the farmer's market or do you buy from a
> health food store?
From the farmer.
> With regards to the eggs: Are they from free-range chickens? Are the
> chickens fed a vegetarian diet?
When I pick up the milk, I sometimes worry that I'm running over
chickens! They do have a "mobile home" that they are put into so that
they can be moved between places on the farm. They are put to
pasture, they are put in the fields (pest control!), and they are fed
grain.
> The egg thing has me a bit baffled -- I once thought about trying to raise
> ducks & sent away for poultry catalogs & they all said they wouldn't
> guarantee the survival of the baby chicks unless I also bought antibiotics
> for them. Is the survival rate for chicks NOT given such prophylactic
> antibiotics that bad?
I'm not a farmer. I will speculate that the answer is no, but I have
no business having an opinion.
Soren
Beverly Erlebacher
Fred & michele <heal...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>The egg thing has me a bit baffled -- I once thought about trying to raise
>ducks & sent away for poultry catalogs & they all said they wouldn't
>guarantee the survival of the baby chicks unless I also bought antibiotics
>for them. Is the survival rate for chicks NOT given such prophylactic
>antibiotics that bad?
It can be bad on an industrial scale, but if you keep the chicks clean,
warm and unstressed, with adequate space, suitable feed and clean
water, you should be able to raise them without significant loss. If
you can, get a dual purpose type, they tend to be more genetically
diverse and adaptable compared to the inbred types developed for
industrial-type production.
Michael Sierchio
> Men were not made to drink milk like they do in the USA.
> If men had been designed to drink milk, their wives would have grown
> huge udders with multiple nipples to satisfy them.
This is a specious argument. Some peoples are indeed "made" to
drink cow's milk, in that they carry the gene that causes them
to produce lactase in adulthood. They were "made" thus by
natural selection, the reproductive advantage conferred by
this demonstrates itself among Northern Europeans, because
the process of breaking lactose into galactose and glucose via
enzymatic action functions analogously to ergocalciferol
in assisting calcium across the gut barrier -- essential in
Northern latitudes because of the lack of sunshine. Other Northern
peoples (e.g. Inuit) get vitamin D from the livers of fish
and marine mammals. Other pastoral peoples do not drink
milk, but are dependent on fermentation products (cheese,
yogurt, etc.)
It has been estimated that about 20% of the world population
is able to digest lactose in adulthood. This means that cow's
milk in its natural state is not a good food for the vast
majority of the world's adult population.
Feel free to have an opinion without being well informed on
the subject, however.
Carey Gregory
>If it is pasteurized at very high temperature it will not sour.
I thought the term "Pasteurization" referred to a specific temperature
range, not just heating to arbitrary temperatures.
Am I wrong?
Quentin Grady
Long life milk is said to be ultra pasteurized.
In all pasteurization processes the temperatures and length of time at
those temperatures is a minimum sufficient to achieve the particular
objective. In normal pasteurization the temperature is raised and
lowered quickly.
Quentin Grady
>Cream is generally ultrapasteurized and does not sour at all.
That reminds me of some ginger nuts bought for a class of students.
The holidays came and I forgot about them. Over a year later some
students found them and ate them. The biscuits weren't even soft.
According to the students they are sealed in nitrogen gas to prevent
oxidation. I took the class roll with some trepidation for a few days
but the students remained as healthy and boisterous as ever.
Is nothing perishable these days? <grin>
Steve Harris
taur...@pacbell.net wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:37:03 -0800, Michael Sierchio <ku...@tenebras.com>
wrote:
>
>>al...@nospam.com wrote:
>
>>Pasteurization does not kill the bacteria that cause souring or
>>fermentation -- it does kill tuberculin bacilli and other pathogens
>>that were, before pasteurization, common in milk.
>
temperature it
>will not sour. That stuff spoils before it gets sour.
>
>Ora
Heat it hot enough long enough and it doesn't even "spoil." That's
what they do to canned milk. And the milk in those little foil cartons, too.
=======================
Godwin's Law (weak version): In any discussion of W.W.II the chance
of someone bringing up the Nazis over time approaches 1.0 really,
really quickly.
S.B.Harris
=======================
Carey Gregory
>When you buy milk that has several days before expiration it is apparent that it
>has not been merely pasteurized, but has been treated to last much longer.
It's not "apparent" at all. Is pasteurization of milk a specific
process with a well defined temperature range or is it not?
Martin E. Lewitt
SoS <re...@newsgroup.com> wrote:
>>Intensive dairy farming is relatively new (< 100 yrs) and presents
>>its own set of health problems for cattle. But herds, even small
>>ones, are susceptible to zoonotic diseases such as TB. Yes, most
>>people in the "thousands of years of history" died of communicable
>>disease. And a very small percentage of humans ever drank cow's
>>milk. The vast majority of pastoral peoples do not drink milk
>>for the simple fact that they cannot digest it -- 80% of the world's
>>population is lactose intolerant. Most use fermentation products
>>such as cheese and yogurt.
>Men were not made to drink milk like they do in the USA.
>If men had been designed to drink milk, their wives would have grown
>huge udders with multiple nipples to satisfy them.
Cows provide an opportunity to efficiently exploit grass and pasture
resources that wives wouldn't without additional adaptations.
Furthermore men would be competing for nutritive resources with their
own offspring. In species where males aren't needed beyond mating,
there is a tendency for the males to disperse and exploit different
resources than the young and their mothers.
There are further benefits to cows, millions were probably spared
small pox by exposure to the zoonotic disease cox pox. -- Martin
--
Personal, not work info: Martin E. Lewitt My opinions are
Domain: lew...@swcp.com P.O. Box 729 my own, not my
Hm phone: (505) 281-3248 Sandia Park, NM 87047-0729 employer's.
Alf Christophersen
>Yes, you're absolutely right, except that it rarely
>if ever happens in reality. In fact, from what I've
>seen, these "benefits" occur more often in pasteurized
>milk than raw. Many of these same bacteria infest
>the vegetables we eat and, in fact, the air we breath.
>Do you sterilize all your fresh fruits and vegetables
>(and air) before you eat them (breathe it)?
The main reason why the illnesses are seldom (but happens still) is
just the pasteurisation of the milk ,thus breking a positive feedback
mechanism on spreading the bacterias. Infected milk infects the
peasants that in turn make the uninfected cows ill which in turn
produce infected milk which again infects other peasants drinking the
milk from infected cows and in turn infect their cows which in
turn....
This is also valid with diseases like mouth and hoof disease etc.
Alf Christophersen
>Indeed. That's why you don't buy from large dairies. Why should I
>pay distributers to pay farmers less-than-subsistence amounts for
>their milk. I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small
>farm about 100 miles from me. It's not that hard. Its better for me,
>better for the farmer, and cheaper.
>
>And this farm has NEVER (in 40+ years) made a person sick from the
>milk. It really isn't that hard!
You must be a lucky man ! In most other countries that is strictly
forbidden. Here it was allowed until 1961. Then, since tuberculosis
was still spreading via milk, it was strictly forbidden for all milk
producers to sell unpasteurized milk. At the very same day, I had to
quit drinking milk because I got nettle fever from homogenized and
pasteurized milk :-( (Most possibly because I was fed such milk as a
newborn baby and didn't get breast milk at all because illness)
Because that ban, tuberculosis was gotten under control, more or less.
Today tuberculosis are spread from foreigners and old people who get
new outbreaks from deposits in their body that has been there since
they was a child (encapsulated bacteria colonies that breaks)
Still it is therefor important to keep all traditional bacteria
spreading methods under strict control, like boiling dishes in public
restaurants. (They should be boiled at home to, but there are at least
no regulations about that for homes, only for places where unrelated
people may use the same utensils)
Soren Dayton
> On 21 Mar 2001 16:18:06 -0600, Soren Dayton <day...@overx.com> wrote:
>
> >Indeed. That's why you don't buy from large dairies. Why should I
> >pay distributers to pay farmers less-than-subsistence amounts for
> >their milk. I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small
> >farm about 100 miles from me. It's not that hard. Its better for me,
> >better for the farmer, and cheaper.
> >
> >And this farm has NEVER (in 40+ years) made a person sick from the
> >milk. It really isn't that hard!
>
> You must be a lucky man ! In most other countries that is strictly
> forbidden.
It is in (most of) the States, too. Including where I live and where
the farm is. It works because the farmers run a co-op. Legally, I
have a share of an organization that owns (8 Holstein) cows and
distributes the milk from those cows to the owners of the
organization. This is the sort of bullshit that people have to go
through (and its a standard trick. There are other standard tricks
that are the same but different (for example, trading != selling.
People trade homemade bread for milk. Or yogurt for milk, or
whatever.))
Soren
John 'the Man'
> >Indeed. That's why you don't buy from large dairies. Why should I
> >pay distributers to pay farmers less-than-subsistence amounts for
> >their milk. I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small
> >farm about 100 miles from me.
It is unnatural for a mature adult to be drinking pasteurized milk.
It is even more insane for a mature adult to be drinking raw milk.
--
John Gohde,
Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!
Introducing the Award Winning www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com
-- a simple health program that really works!
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/links.html.
Bringing the concept of Links into the New Millennium!
joe record
John 'the Man' wrote:
> > On 21 Mar 2001 16:18:06 -0600, Soren Dayton <day...@overx.com> wrote:
>
> > >Indeed. That's why you don't buy from large dairies. Why should I
> > >pay distributers to pay farmers less-than-subsistence amounts for
> > >their milk. I get all my (raw and organic) milk and eggs from a small
> > >farm about 100 miles from me.
>
> It is unnatural for a mature adult to be drinking pasteurized milk.
>
> It is even more insane for a mature adult to be drinking raw milk.
but it must be most insane to be john gohde.
dunno what the pay-off is for you to go to so much trouble to select
newspaper articles on health topics and display them on a web site and then
persistantly
crow as if it were the best thing on earth. overcompensation for secret
doubt.
rover lives in a bone-yard,fortunately some bones still have a bit of meat
on...........grrrrr!