What's your verdict on coffee - hurt us or help us?
D.
---
Headline: Coffee: A "Health Drink" or a "Health Hinderance?"
It's incredible the amount of conflicting evidence about coffee. No
matter which way you turn, there's someone who touts coffee as a
health drink, while another set of researchers finds that coffee is
bad, bad, bad.
Personally, I enjoy drinking coffee, and in fact I am writing today's
post from our local coffee shop. Most readers of this newsgroup are,
howewver, very aware of their health and their bodily processes. I
know when I drink coffee that everything gets "speeded up," and the
effect on my blood pressure has been noted on numerous occasions by my
doctor. And yet, I still drink it on occasion.
One example of the "good news" about coffee from today's medical wire:
"Regular and high coffee drinking may reduce the risk of liver cancer
by 55 per cent, says a new meta-analysis of observational studies. The
study, published in the August issue of <i>Hepatology</i>, pooled data
from six case-control and four cohort studies and found that an
increase of one cup of coffee every day was associated with a 23 per
cent reduction across all the studies. Moreover, the apparent
favorable effect of coffee drinking was found both in studies from
southern Europe, where coffee is widely consumed, and from Japan,
where coffee consumption is less frequent, and in subjects with
chronic liver diseases. The authors go on to say that liver cancer is
the sixth most commonly diagnosed cancer in the world, and third most
common cause of death from cancer.
These authors calculated that moderate coffee drinking was associated
with a 30 per cent lower risk, while heavy coffee drinking was
associated with a 55 per cent lower risk."
Coffee, one of the world's largest traded commodities produced in more
than 60 countries and generating more than $70 billion in retail sales
a year, continues to spawn research and interest, and has been linked
to reduced risks of certain diseases, especially of the liver and
diabetes.
Still, I know what it does for my blood pressure, and that certainly
isn't good. In this case, the verdict of whether or not coffee is
"good" is an entirely personal decision, and no matter which way you
go on it, you'll find evidence to support your decision. (Read the
excellent "US News and World Report" article on Coffee, which is
linked at http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/051219/19coffee.htm)
Dave
Juhana Harju
I think that you have forgotten some harmful effects of coffee. While it is
true that coffee drinking may prevent liver cancer and delay the onset of
type 2 diabetes, coffee raises inflammatory markers (e.g CRP) and
homocysteine. It also increases the risk of acute cardiac events and is
associated with modestly increased risk of osteoporotic fractures. For most
people it would be reasonable to limit the intake of coffee to 1-2 cups
daily, IMHO.
--
Juhana
D.
Hi Juhana,
I agree wholeheartedly. As I said in my article, the 'verdict' is
certainly not in on coffee. I know, in my own instance, that the blood
pressure increase does not justify my coffee intake on a daily basis
(I still have one once or twice a week). As I mentioned, you can find
NO concensus on this topic on the net -- coffee is either very, very
bad for you, or very good for you, depending upon whose viewpoint and
what research you look at.
Dave
mont...@lycos.com
mix homogenized, pasteurized milk and also sugar into their coffee,
which is a very bad idea. Also, when do you drink it? I would never
drink it between meals, unless it was just coffee. How to use
coffee? Let it cool, then mix it in with ricotta cheese and sugar
(pinch of salt, and if you like, some cocoa powder). This makes it
into a very healthy food - you get the antioxidants from the coffee
and good-quality protein (from the cheese). This can be eaten with
banana and/or shredded coconut, for example. Use lightly roasted,
fresh, organic coffee only. The person who drink a gallon of coffee
with milk and sugar each day, on the other hand, is not likely doing
his/her body any major favors.
To learn more about what the best practical diet really is, go to my
free site:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-
There you will see evidence quoted as well as my essays, and you can
ask me questions through the forums there.
D.
Thanks Monty -- I'll visit your site shortly and read more. But, I am
wondering, does the cheese REALLY melt inside the coffee, making a
cream-like flavor, or would you be drinking "coffee chunks?"
Dave
NoOpt...@aol.com
> As is almost always the case, this is a contextual issue. Most people
> mix homogenized, pasteurized milk and also sugar into their coffee,
> which is a very bad idea. Also, when do you drink it? I would never
> drink it between meals, unless it was just coffee. How to use
> coffee? Let it cool, then mix it in with ricotta cheese and sugar
> (pinch of salt, and if you like, some cocoa powder).
Why add anything? I say savior the flavor and just drink it black.
> This makes it
> into a very healthy food - you get the antioxidants from the coffee
> and good-quality protein (from the cheese).
No need to increase the amount of protein in the American diet.
> This can be eaten with
> banana and/or shredded coconut, for example. Use lightly roasted,
> fresh, organic coffee only. The person who drink a gallon of coffee
> with milk and sugar each day, on the other hand, is not likely doing
> his/her body any major favors.
Moderation/a cup or two in a day/a few cups a week is fine.
Patrick
mont...@lycos.com
problem. Add the coffee to the ricotta, mix, then add sugar, etc. to
taste. A little cocoa powder helps with antioxidants, but you won't
taste it. I eat no meat (just small amounts of gelatin). Most of my
protein comes from regular cheese and ricotta, along with an egg now
and then and a little from the other things I eat. On my site, you
can read about it in detail
Jim Chinnis
> While it is
>true that coffee drinking may prevent liver cancer and delay the onset of
>type 2 diabetes, coffee raises inflammatory markers (e.g CRP) and
>homocysteine.
The first two are killers. The latter two are physiologic measures and there
is evidence that rasing one of them (homocysteine with B vitamins) makes
risks worse.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchi...@alum.mit.edu
Juhana Harju
> "Juhana Harju" <no...@mail.fi> wrote in part:
>
>> While it is
>> true that coffee drinking may prevent liver cancer and delay the
>> onset of type 2 diabetes, coffee raises inflammatory markers (e.g
>> CRP) and homocysteine.
>
> The first two are killers. The latter two are physiologic measures
> and there is evidence that rasing one of them (homocysteine with B
> vitamins) makes risks worse.
Acute cardiac events and osteoporosis are killers as well. You skipped them.
--
Juhana
Jim Chinnis
Are people who drink coffee more likely to die than those who don't? Or is
it just that they are more likely to die in time periods that follow coffee
drinking? The latter doesn't seem to me to matter, and that's the way I took
the word "acute" here.
Osteoporosis *can* kill, especially if untreated, but I wouldn't class it
with the clear killers here.
Juhana Harju
> "Juhana Harju" <no...@mail.fi> wrote in part:
>
>> Jim Chinnis wrote:
>>> "Juhana Harju" <no...@mail.fi> wrote in part:
>>>
>>>> While it is
>>>> true that coffee drinking may prevent liver cancer and delay the
>>>> onset of type 2 diabetes, coffee raises inflammatory markers (e.g
>>>> CRP) and homocysteine.
>>>
>>> The first two are killers. The latter two are physiologic measures
>>> and there is evidence that rasing one of them (homocysteine with B
>>> vitamins) makes risks worse.
>>
>> Acute cardiac events and osteoporosis are killers as well. You
>> skipped them.
>
> Are people who drink coffee more likely to die than those who don't?
> Or is it just that they are more likely to die in time periods that
> follow coffee drinking? The latter doesn't seem to me to matter, and
> that's the way I took the word "acute" here.
You very selective in your scepticism. In spite that there are no studies
showing that there is any mortality benefit in low carb diets you are an
ardent proponent of them. And now in this issue you are looking for
explanations that are very unlikely to be true. It amuses me a bit. ;-) Have
you ever heard of cognitive dissonance?
> Osteoporosis *can* kill, especially if untreated, but I wouldn't
> class it with the clear killers here.
It seems that you are not aware of _hugely_ increased mortality in the first
year after a hip fracture.
--
Juhana
Jim Chinnis
>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> "Juhana Harju" <no...@mail.fi> wrote in part:
>>
>>> Jim Chinnis wrote:
>>>> "Juhana Harju" <no...@mail.fi> wrote in part:
>>>>
>>>>> While it is
>>>>> true that coffee drinking may prevent liver cancer and delay the
>>>>> onset of type 2 diabetes, coffee raises inflammatory markers (e.g
>>>>> CRP) and homocysteine.
>>>>
>>>> The first two are killers. The latter two are physiologic measures
>>>> and there is evidence that rasing one of them (homocysteine with B
>>>> vitamins) makes risks worse.
>>>
>>> Acute cardiac events and osteoporosis are killers as well. You
>>> skipped them.
>>
>> Are people who drink coffee more likely to die than those who don't?
>> Or is it just that they are more likely to die in time periods that
>> follow coffee drinking? The latter doesn't seem to me to matter, and
>> that's the way I took the word "acute" here.
>
>You very selective in your scepticism. In spite that there are no studies
>showing that there is any mortality benefit in low carb diets you are an
>ardent proponent of them. And now in this issue you are looking for
>explanations that are very unlikely to be true.
In the case raised in this thread, you seemed to say that some improved
markers might be more important than protection from fatal diseases. I
wouldn't weigh the two kinds of evidence equally. I don't think I ever do.
That applies to low carb, low fat, or anything else.
>It amuses me a bit. ;-) Have
>you ever heard of cognitive dissonance?
>
>> Osteoporosis *can* kill, especially if untreated, but I wouldn't
>> class it with the clear killers here.
>
>It seems that you are not aware of _hugely_ increased mortality in the first
>year after a hip fracture.
What is cause and what is effect? (An honest question. BTW.) I'm happy to be
educated. For instance, do hip fractures occur when people become frail in
general, have balance loss and the like? Or is it purely a matter of bone
loss?
Juhana Harju
I did not say that nor did I intend to say that.
> I wouldn't weigh the two kinds of evidence equally.
Neither do I.
> I don't think I ever do. That applies to low carb, low fat, or anything
> else.
>
>> It amuses me a bit. ;-) Have
>> you ever heard of cognitive dissonance?
>>
>>> Osteoporosis *can* kill, especially if untreated, but I wouldn't
>>> class it with the clear killers here.
>>
>> It seems that you are not aware of _hugely_ increased mortality in
>> the first year after a hip fracture.
>
> What is cause and what is effect? (An honest question. BTW.) I'm
> happy to be educated. For instance, do hip fractures occur when
> people become frail in general, have balance loss and the like? Or is
> it purely a matter of bone loss?
Hip fractures occure mostly in elderly people. I agree with your suspicion
that there is some correlation with general frailty and hip fractures (e.g.
it is known that people with cardiovascular disease have a greater risk of
hip fractures as well). Still I think that the complications after hip
fractures and the disabilities due to fractures are a much more important
factor. This is a study comparing hip fracture patients with community
living elderly people:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/157/11/1023
--
Juhana
Ron Peterson
> What is cause and what is effect? (An honest question. BTW.) I'm happy to be
> educated. For instance, do hip fractures occur when people become frail in
> general, have balance loss and the like? Or is it purely a matter of bone
> loss?
It's a combination of factors. Being underweight along with loss of
muscle strength can cause the bones to weaken. Bones can weaken
without substantial loss of density. Falling or accidents precipitate
the fracture and areas in warmer climates that don't have icy
conditions such as California have lower fracture rates.
--
Ron
Ron Peterson
> What is cause and what is effect? (An honest question. BTW.) I'm happy to be
> educated. For instance, do hip fractures occur when people become frail in
> general, have balance loss and the like? Or is it purely a matter of bone
> loss?
It's a combination of factors. Being underweight along with loss of
Juhana Harju
It seems that you were not careful in you reading. What are the risk factors
of osteoporosis is a different thing.
--
Juhana
Juhana Harju
> It's a combination of factors. Being underweight along with loss of
> muscle strength can cause the bones to weaken. Bones can weaken
> without substantial loss of density. Falling or accidents precipitate
> the fracture and areas in warmer climates that don't have icy
> conditions such as California have lower fracture rates.
Genetic propensity is the strongest factor. Genetics explain 60-80 percent
of the variation in peak bone mineral density achieved in late twenties.
Lack of sun exposure in Northern latitudes, lack of exercise, suboptimal
intakes of vitamin D, vitamin K, calcium, potassium and protein are strong
factors as well.
--
Juhana
BlackHawk96
>This full text article is extracted from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
>
>---
>
>Headline: Coffee: A "Health Drink" or a "Health Hinderance?"
>
>It's incredible the amount of conflicting evidence about coffee. No
>matter which way you turn, there's someone who touts coffee as a
>health drink, while another set of researchers finds that coffee is
>bad, bad, bad.
>
>Personally, I enjoy drinking coffee, and in fact I am writing today's
>post from our local coffee shop. Most readers of this newsgroup are,
>howewver, very aware of their health and their bodily processes. I
>know when I drink coffee that everything gets "speeded up," and the
>effect on my blood pressure has been noted on numerous occasions by my
>doctor. And yet, I still drink it on occasion.
Dave, Is it not true that occasional episodes of hbp are perfectly
normal (as while exercising) and of no concern?
I suspect you are referring to hbp while not exercising. In which case
I would ask if you have metabolic syndrome? A good place to start. Did
they control for that in their meta-study?
>
>One example of the "good news" about coffee from today's medical wire:
>
>"Regular and high coffee drinking may reduce the risk of liver cancer
>by 55 per cent, says a new meta-analysis of observational studies.
One should always keep in mind that in a meta-study contradictory
conclusions can be reached by simply altering the criteria. I'm sure
you've heard that "figures don't lie, but liars can figure".
>The
>study, published in the August issue of <i>Hepatology</i>, pooled data
>from six case-control and four cohort studies and found that an
>increase of one cup of coffee every day was associated with a 23 per
>cent reduction across all the studies. Moreover, the apparent
>favorable effect of coffee drinking was found both in studies from
>southern Europe, where coffee is widely consumed, and from Japan,
>where coffee consumption is less frequent, and in subjects with
>chronic liver diseases. The authors go on to say that liver cancer is
>the sixth most commonly diagnosed cancer in the world, and third most
>common cause of death from cancer.
Shouldn't they have looked at mortality from all causes?
And shouldn't they have compared coffee to green tea directly? A
glaring omission, imho, although I must admit that I haven't read the
study and are only commenting on what you have reported here.
BlackHawk
D.
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:52:09 -0700, "D." <djense...@cox.net> wrote:
> >This full text article is extracted fromhttp://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
Blackhawk, good post. Clinical trials are so often done poorly, and
meta-analysis, as you suggest, can easily be skewed.
My post was more about my personal experience, up and down, with
coffee, and our inability to get any real consensus off the research.
This thread is a perfect example of all the different opinions about
coffee and whether it is OK or NOT OK to maintain good health. For me,
I have perfect health, and I am not overweight- I'm at the "pre-
hypertension levels" however, and drinking coffee pushes it the wrong
way.
I think that we must end up saying in this thread that coffee is an
individual decision because it seems to be affecting people in
different ways,
Dave
al...@webtv.net
no...@mail.fi (Juhana Harju) wrote:
" Genetics explain 60-80 percent of the variation in peak bone mineral
density achieved in late twenties. Lack of sun exposure in Northern
latitudes, lack of exercise, suboptimal intakes of vitamin D, vitamin K,
calcium, potassium and protein are strong factors as well. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are some trace-minerals that are very important too.
Copper and Silcon are two.