Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Congratulations

32 views
Skip to first unread message

Rita Stanley

unread,
May 17, 2004, 9:27:14 AM5/17/04
to
Bravo on the wonderful diversionary and instructuve epic ode "To Rita"! It
was a wonderful tag team illustration of what happens to one who does not
buy into Ellen and Johnson et others view on Bachnylsky. Bravo!

Forgive me for not having read it in it's entirity because I was too busy
cleaning out the smoke blown up my ass.

But I digress............

Ellen, work on the pop psychology, but on the whole, I would say, that with
you at the helm, DNP will undoubetedly become the next research mecca. You
are needed now to make sure that the hard work gets done.

Johnson, you outdid yourself! While you slid a little in a subtle attempt at
brown nosing me after reading an article I wrote, you caught yourself and
"gave it your all" in the "sad" monologue. I will leave you with it as a
reminder of just how polished you are in your persuasive skills. It also
illustrates why Bachynsky hired you.

Oh, one more thing; I am "sad", Johnson, that you will remain "sad"
because, no, I don't think highly of Bachynsky, have no respect whatsoever,
and no one will con or bully or manipulate me into ever thinking
otherwise............ even though "virtually all Lyme patients " (document
this Johnson - just counting your buddies doesn't count) has something good
to say about him. The "credibility gap" that you are so concerned with is
filled with leaders like you and Ellen and, of course, Frank.

Carry on, troops!

Rita

From "To Rita" and by Johnson in response to Woodtick:

"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message
news:gZApc.494946$Ig.318596@pd7tw2no...
> The point being made was not to bash Rita, but to understand what I have
not
> heard her say....something which you acknowledged, or at least have in the
> past, which is that Bachynsky had a good side and has actually helped
> people. You have admitted this, but to my knowledge Rita has not, and it
was
> that fact that was being discussed.
>
> I was one of the first to acknowledge the checkered past of Bachynsky, and
> wrote about it extensively, including the fact that Helvetia would not
even
> acknowledge what chemical agent was initially being used in Italy. I
> speculated that it almost certainly was DNP when many thought for sure it
> was usnic acid. I called for more honesty on Helvetia's part and published
> everything I knew of Bachynsky's past. However, I gave praise where praise
> was due, and that included acknowledging the patients that the treatment
> helped, and that eventually included me.
>
> The point of my last post was not to demean Rita, a person who has
> contributed so much to the Lyme community, but to understand why she
doesn't
> seem to have the capacity to do what virtually all other Lyme patients
have
> done, which is to acknowledge the two sides of ICHT and Bachynsky.
>
> The entire situation is tragic on many levels. However, we don't need to
> compound the tragedy by one of our leaders being publically blind to basic
> facts that everyone knows about. When this happens, it leads to a loss of
> credibility.
>
> I'm not not saying that Rita or anyone else should not be critical of
> Bachynsky or ICHT...I certainly have been, so why shouldn't they... but
they
> should at least acknowledge basic the facts. Not to do so sells the Lyme
> community short because we desperately need leaders who have credibility.
>
> Sad.
>
>
> "WoodTick" <Woodt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:94d2171b.04051...@posting.google.com...
> > I just don't understand how anyone can see all the information
> > available on Bachynsky and NOT see that he is a con man and a fraud.
> > What's with all the Rita-Bashing -- what'd she do?


L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 1:37:14 PM5/17/04
to
Rita...I'm glad you read most of it, but I would prefer if you read all of
it.

Divert the message as you will, the point being made was that a general rule
in life is that if you can't trust someone on the small stuff, like seeing
the obvious, you won't trust them on the big stuff, like leading a much
deserving group to better health care. When I said that credibility your was
at stake, I meant it.

Taking shots at Bachynsky or ICHT is easy...the ducks are free floating in
front of you, and almost everyone I know has hit at least one or two.
However, it seems to have proven impossible for you to see both sides of
what turned out to be a huge issue for the Lyme community. The issue is now
dead, so we are now simply left with the remnants of what the issue has
discarded here.

With the people that I speak with (and maybe this is simply a colloqial
issue, after all), Rita Stanley is not held in high regard in all areas, in
large part, because of her inability to see the obvious small things
concerning ICHT. It has revealed your lack of credibility, your lack of
objectivity on something that was so obvious (Rosanne is perfectly well 1
1/2 years later, others are on this list), and your irrational reaction to
the entire subject.

Everyone has taken shots at ICHT...and I do mean everyone...so that is not
the issue. The issue is not literally everyone that I have ever talked to
admitting what is there...deception, risk, the death of one Lyme patient
(autopsy has yet to be released, at least to my knowledge), patients not
helped in anyway, an expensive form of treatment, similiar to HBO, home
infusion, long term oral ABX, charlatans helping to run the organization,
etc.

Bad mouthing ICHT is easy. Being objective has proven impossible for Rita
Stanley, and that has hurt you, and in hurting you, it hurts the Lyme
community because you are one of its leaders.

So call my tears false, but you are doing a disservice to all of by not
being the objective leader that you should have been. I don't understand why
you have an irrational reaction to ICHT. I don't understand why you have an
incapacity to see the obvious. Two days ago I was trying to understand that
incapacity on this group, and it was interesting that you never helped, you
never chimed in.

Instead, once more you preferred to sit off from a distance and take
personal shots, rather than deal with reality and the facts, and in this
case acknowledge the obvious. I think you just proved my point, which
doesn't win anything for me, but is chalked up as a total loss for the
entire Lyme community.

Rita, you are a well known leader in the Lyme community. However, this issue
has hurt you, if you are willing to acknowledge it or not. You have lost
credibility with a huge portion of the Lyme community at a time that we can
ill afford such things.

That was point of me coming back to sci.med and posting. If you don't get
it, my effort was in vain. I am sorry, because we all lose.

And to end...please don't do that useless tirade thing against ICHT that you
do...we have all seen it, and for those of us who have actually exposed many
negative things about ICHT to the Lyme community it gets old fast. It also
diverts attention from the real issue at hand. If you aren't going to expand
your boundaries on this issue to encompass objectivity, I would prefer you
didn't do anything at all. Just let it rest.

As I said, we all know the negative side. We just haven't seen your
objective side, yet.

And yes, it is never too late to go back and read the entire thread.
Something can still be learned.

Sad...you bet. Sad for all of us.


"Rita Stanley" <rlst...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:S43qc.67418$z06.8975528@attbi_s01...

Rita Stanley

unread,
May 17, 2004, 2:13:25 PM5/17/04
to

"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message
news:eL6qc.512924$Ig.379821@pd7tw2no...

>
> Rita, you are a well known leader in the Lyme community. However, this
issue
> has hurt you, if you are willing to acknowledge it or not.

I am happy to be excluded ("hurt") from your ICHT promoting group. If I am
ever embraced or accepted by you or the likes of you then I will worry.

>You have lost
> credibility with a huge portion of the Lyme community at a time that we
can
> ill afford such things.

Having worked for a convicted felon, I am sure you are an expert on
credibility. Nevertheless, the loss of your type of credibilty (assuming any
ever existed which I soundly doubt) is a breath of fresh air.

> >
> Sad...you bet. Sad for all of us.

Keep being sad.

And carry on in your endeavors of enlightenment,

Rita

Message has been deleted

Frank de Groot

unread,
May 17, 2004, 11:43:54 PM5/17/04
to
"Rita Stanley" wrote

> Bravo on the wonderful diversionary and instructuve epic ode "To Rita"!

You have no arguments so you ridicule the message with cheap methods.

> was a wonderful tag team illustration of what happens to one who does not
> buy into Ellen and Johnson et others view on Bachnylsky. Bravo!

Arguments? viz. above.

> Forgive me for not having read it in it's entirity because I was too busy
> cleaning out the smoke blown up my ass.

Again more of the same. Madame is too busy to read arguments and too much up
in the sky "leading" to bother to come with counter arguments.

> But I digress............

Indeed.


> Ellen, work on the pop psychology, but on the whole, I would say, that
with
> you at the helm, DNP will undoubetedly become the next research mecca.
You
> are needed now to make sure that the hard work gets done.


More blabla.
Where is the substance?

Do you have fact to support your allegations that Borreliae are not
susceptible to heat, contrary to all prior research data?
Can you prove that the body temps reached are too low with B.'s protocol?
If not, all you are doing is make yourself ridiculous.

For years you have offered nothing but: "I don't like that man, he is a bad
man".
It's not the man my dear, it's the treatment he dispenses and the effect on
the bacteria that counts.

You are sounding like a broken record.


> Johnson, you outdid yourself!


Bla bla bla!
Nothing but cheap discussion tricks.
Someone calling herself "leader" should have at least a single argument when
attacking a widely appraised treatment system,
ESPECIALLY when her own pet alternative treatment is highly controversial
(and expensive, and risky).


> While you slid a little in a subtle attempt at
> brown nosing me


Blah blah blah!
More of the same ad-hominem demagoguery.

> after reading an article I wrote, you caught yourself and
> "gave it your all" in the "sad" monologue.

Bla bla bla!
Where are the arguments?

> I will leave you with it as a
> reminder of just how polished you are in your persuasive skills. It also
> illustrates why Bachynsky hired you.

Bla bla bla!

> Oh, one more thing; I am "sad", Johnson, that you will remain "sad"

Bla bla bla!

> because, no, I don't think highly of Bachynsky, have no respect
whatsoever,

Who gives a flying fuck of what you think, bitch.

> and no one will con or bully or manipulate me into ever thinking
> otherwise............

Bla bla bla!
Arguments?

> even though "virtually all Lyme patients " (document
> this Johnson - just counting your buddies doesn't count) has something
good
> to say about him. The "credibility gap" that you are so concerned with is
> filled with leaders like you and Ellen and, of course, Frank.

Bla bla bla!
Arguments?


> Carry on, troops!

Bla bla bla!

Go and kill yourself already.
You are on the level of animals.
Animals understand no reason and use no arguments either.


L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 3:48:42 PM5/17/04
to
> I am happy to be excluded ("hurt") from your ICHT promoting group. If I
am
> ever embraced or accepted by you or the likes of you then I will worry.

You haven't been excluded by an ICHT promotion group. There is no ICHT
therapy so there is no one promoting it. However, you have lost credibility
with very ill Lyme patients, the very people you are there to help. Your
loss of credibility has hurt the Lyme cause, and that is the point of what
is being posted over and over again by myself and others. Don't you get it
yet?

> Having worked for a convicted felon, I am sure you are an expert on
> credibility. Nevertheless, the loss of your type of credibilty (assuming
any
> ever existed which I soundly doubt) is a breath of fresh air.


Once more you prove my point. You attack me personally instead of dealing
with the issue at hand. You continue to sit off at a distance and take pot
shots at individuals who disagree with you, instead of dealing with a
serious issue that concerns yourself...an issue that not only hurts you, but
hurts the entire Lyme community. I ask again...don't you get it yet?

> Keep being sad.
>
> And carry on in your endeavors of enlightenment,
>
> Rita

Yes, I will be sad about this whole affair. When I look a the entire ICHT
episode, it is tragic, even though it helped a few of us get our health
back. But the cost to do so has been high for many individuals and families.

However, we continue to pay the price of you being irrational and anything
but objective. As a leader of the Lyme community, when you lose your
credibility, we all lose. Once more...don't you get it yet Rita?


Rita Stanley

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:15:29 PM5/17/04
to
Where did you learn to write like this, PR101............?

Nevertheless, James Johnson, now that there is a vacancy where supposedly I
once stood: in the area of Credibility in all of Lymeland and not just the
ICHT promotion group (did I get it right?), it's yours and Ellen's and
whomever elses' to just fill. Or perhaps you fill it already and all is
healing right now.

Congratulations.

Indeed, a tragedy of epic proportions has now been curtailed. Or perhaps it
is much too late, and I have doomed us all with my irrationality about all
of this.

And that would make you even sadder.......................

Rita

PS: Get me a shovel


"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message

news:uG8qc.514025$Ig.403079@pd7tw2no...

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:17:19 PM5/17/04
to
>What happens to Dr. Bachynsky, really does NOT affect lyme patients
>today.

AH yes it does. His name will forever be tied to ICHT. Now whether there is
really something to this therapy or not I have no idea because between the
fighting about it here and on LymeNet who the hell can tell but the fact that
this doctors name is and WILL be tied to this therapy and the fact that he IS a
criminal, if in fact there IS something to this therapy and if it EVER does
become a given therapy for Lyme, SOME Lyme patients will shy away from it
because it was brought to light by a liar, a theif and a convicted criminal and
if you think thats not true I can sell you some ocean front property in AZ..
So, yes it DOES have an affect on lyme patients of TODAY AND Tomorrow. Do you
understand that?

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:22:50 PM5/17/04
to
>However, you have lost credibility
>with very ill Lyme patients, the very people you are there to help.

I think you need to stop speaking for everyone. There are ALOT of us very ill
people and I don't think you have the right to speak for any of us. I Don't
know Rita from a hole in the wall but I don't appreciate someone I don't even
know speaking for me. I would like for you to post who all these people are
that she has lost credibility with? Then please post how it has hurt the Lyme
Cause and in who's eyes.

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:24:39 PM5/17/04
to
Rita...maybe I'm saying things in a way that does not give you an
opportunity to make changes. If this is the case, I apologize.

ICHT is history, but how the people in the Lyme community deal with emerging
treatment issues will always be current, until there is an actual cure.
Also, how we all get along is crucial to putting on a cohesive front for the
public, and for the conservative medical community that seems to be working
against our well being, as well as for new Lyme patients who constantly look
for help.

Fighting over ICHT is useless. However, trying to get all Lyme leaders on
the same credbility page seems worth the effort. The point of the posts
concerning you over the last few days was to bring out an issue that is
hurting all of us...an irrational reaction to certain people and treatments,
along with an inability to view issues objectively is not useful at this
point in our effort to help Lyme patients.

We desperately need to be seen as objective if we are going to have
credibility with the conservative medical community. Yet, we can't forget
our primary goal is to help sick Lyme patients get better. Both causes
require credibility.

I would prefer to put the ICHT issue behind us. However, moving forward
means doing so with an openness that can at least see both sides to any
issue. I'm up for it if you are.


"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message

news:uG8qc.514025$Ig.403079@pd7tw2no...

Frank de Groot

unread,
May 18, 2004, 1:27:20 AM5/18/04
to
"PrincessKiara70" <princes...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040517161719...@mb-m10.aol.com...

> So, yes it DOES have an affect on lyme patients of TODAY AND Tomorrow. Do
you
> understand that?


Correction.
Only for the Lyme patients who are unable to think.


L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:29:36 PM5/17/04
to

Blast on leader....I fear much is lost.


"Rita Stanley" <rlst...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:B39qc.69667$iF6.5864125@attbi_s02...

Rita Stanley

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:33:38 PM5/17/04
to
It's defaulted to you et al. Whatever "it" is.

I've had enough smoke blow up my butt for today.

Rita


"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message

news:Qg9qc.485877$Pk3.13044@pd7tw1no...

Rita Stanley

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:46:13 PM5/17/04
to
There is no credibility gained by anyone at all from embracing anything in
the Bachynsky/ICHT scandal/saga/ whatever. Distancing oneself might be a
better idea. It seems you have twisted this to your liking. I can
understand you clinging to it because of your having been intimately
connected to the key players involved, but you can't justify your
involvement on my back; using manipulatives to direct me towards your
enlightenment. Or go ahead: blame me for the downfall of Lymeland's
credibility.

Nevertheless, I have no concern about your definition of my credibility nor
anyone elses'. If I've got it, I do; if not, so what?

And all this PR writing is really so obvious.

Forget the shovel, I need a shower.

Rita

"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message

news:bc9qc.513059$oR5.289445@pd7tw3no...

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:49:10 PM5/17/04
to
>Correction.
>Only for the Lyme patients who are unable to think.
>
>
>

According to you that would be everyone except you and those who don't agree
with you. Piss off moron.

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 4:57:58 PM5/17/04
to
Pulling back from the forest to see the trees, Lyme patients are in a deep
hole that is not of their own making. We desperately need help in the form
of research money and an open mind from the conservative medical community.
Until then, many of are left to self-diagnose, self-treat, and effectively
experiment on ourselves in rather crude and barbaric ways.

When we fight amongst ourselves because some of our leader's inability to
deal with facts, which includes them attacking individuals instead of
issues, we have a credibility problem. We also become divided, weaker, and
less effective.

I can list many, many Lyme patients whose respect for Rita has dropped, not
because as individuals they support ICHT (actually, many don't), but because
they could see Rita's lack of objectivity in her many posts when the issue
was hotly debated.

As a result, there is less of a tendancy to listen to Rita on other issues.
Many of my conversations with Lyme patients in this area are left with Rita
simply being put in a box that mostly isn't opened.

Not everyone, obviously. And I don't mean to speak for all, because I know
that isn't the case. However, it is true for many.

Who is it hurting? A divided, weaker, and less effective Lyme community is
bad for everyone. It ends up hurting all of us.

As I said, carry on Rita, blast away...your loss is our loss.


"PrincessKiara70" <princes...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040517162250...@mb-m10.aol.com...

Frank de Groot

unread,
May 18, 2004, 2:05:33 AM5/18/04
to
"L. James Johnson"

> We desperately need help in the form
> of research money and an open mind from the conservative medical
community.

Keep on dreaming.
No way in hell Lyme will ever be treated.
Ever.


> Until then, many of are left to self-diagnose, self-treat, and effectively
> experiment on ourselves in rather crude and barbaric ways.

Nonsense.
"Barbaric"?
Many of us long-time self-treaters have become more knowledgeable than
LLMD's.
I know a self-treating guy who is setting up his own nano-technology lab to
create cochleates.
What's "crude and barbaric" about that?
I think it is very fine-tuned. Adapted to individual situations.


> When we fight amongst ourselves because some of our leader's inability to
> deal with facts, which includes them attacking individuals instead of
> issues, we have a credibility problem. We also become divided, weaker, and
> less effective.


Why do you think in the same terms as the establishment?
"Leaders"?
Nobody holds all the answers. We should all become "leaders" -masters- of
out own destiny.
"Leaders" are not going to fix this issue.


> I can list many, many Lyme patients whose respect for Rita has dropped,
not
> because as individuals they support ICHT (actually, many don't), but
because
> they could see Rita's lack of objectivity in her many posts when the issue
> was hotly debated.

Nobody with logical reasoning ability ever had any respect for her.
She thinks that talking big makes her a "leader" and that arguments are for
wimps.


> Who is it hurting? A divided, weaker, and less effective Lyme community is
> bad for everyone. It ends up hurting all of us.


There is no Lyme community.
All I see is a bunch of egomaniac whining fearful ignoramusses with a
terminal lack of initiative.

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 5:10:08 PM5/17/04
to
> There is no credibility gained by anyone at all from embracing anything in
> the Bachynsky/ICHT scandal/saga/ whatever.

This is another point you are missing...there is no ICHT and no one is
embracing it. There is a difference between embracing an idea and
acknowledging basic facts about. Not to acknowledge what everyoneknows
reduces your credibility. How many times does this need to be said?

Distancing oneself might be a
> better idea.

I agree.

It seems you have twisted this to your liking. I can
> understand you clinging to it because of your having been intimately
> connected to the key players involved,

Misdirect if you must.

but you can't justify your
> involvement on my back; using manipulatives to direct me towards your
> enlightenment. Or go ahead: blame me for the downfall of Lymeland's
> credibility.

No one is blaming you for the downfall of Lymeland, but only drawing
attention to your contribution in this area.

> Nevertheless, I have no concern about your definition of my credibility
nor
> anyone elses'. If I've got it, I do; if not, so what?

You say, "So what?" If you haven't been able to see the point after all
this, I'll pass on saying it again.

You have done much good in the Lyme community and you obviously have your
supporters. That is commendable. Good luck Rita.


jill ellen

unread,
May 17, 2004, 7:06:42 PM5/17/04
to
"It
was a wonderful tag team..."

Actually, it's amazingly funny to think of Frank, me and James JOhnson
as a tag team, that must be the unlikeliest tag team ever made.

Frank de Groot

unread,
May 18, 2004, 4:09:27 AM5/18/04
to
"jill ellen" <jill...@yahoo.com> wrote

> Actually, it's amazingly funny to think of Frank, me and James JOhnson
> as a tag team, that must be the unlikeliest tag team ever made.

What constitutes a tag team?
A group of people that apply grafitti to objects?

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 17, 2004, 8:14:54 PM5/17/04
to
>Actually, it's amazingly funny to think of Frank, me and James JOhnson
>as a tag team,

Just the fact that either of you even converse with him is enough for me to
know who to stay away from.. He is a disgusting excuse for a human being and
anyone who sits here and converses with something like that must have a few
screws loose. Go back and read his posts over the last month or so and if you
don't see what most everyone else does on here? There's something wrong with
you.

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 17, 2004, 8:34:05 PM5/17/04
to
The ugliest ever!

"jill ellen" <jill...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:32779e16.04051...@posting.google.com...

Rita Stanley

unread,
May 18, 2004, 9:44:55 AM5/18/04
to

"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message
news:QS9qc.513306$oR5.293454@pd7tw3no...

>> > Nevertheless, I have no concern about your definition of my credibility
> You say, "So what?" If you haven't been able to see the point after all
> this, I'll pass on saying it again.


The point is - the core issue is - that you worked for Bachynsky. Plain and
simple. You knew his background when you went to consult for him. You were
not naive.

"Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas"

That is not a pot shot as you want to shrug it off, but the core issue. You
don't want people to zero in on that. And that is WHY you try to trivialize
it and make me look like scum. You worked for him, not me.

You want everyone to believe there is something good about him so it does
not reflect badly on you. I don't buy it, most people don't buy it, but
you - who worked for a scam artist - will lie and say otherwise.

All the other PR bullshit about tragedies, and credibility, my "leadership",
and sadness, "move on", etc. are all there to misdirect, are trite and
transparent.

Bachynsky is going to be in the papers a lot now that he is in jail,
indictments are going to come out, and anyone who had an association with
him is going to be tainted. You either want people to zone in on ICHT
research or to say something good about Bachynsky. You want them to forget
about your relationship with him.

Yes, I get it,

I was wrong, this is not something that needed a shovel. This is planned
misdirection and it is pathetic and insulting to me and the Lyme community.

Now go and tear this apart with your patently obvious spins.

Rita

Message has been deleted

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 18, 2004, 11:37:49 AM5/18/04
to
>No, she hasn't.
>
>Susan

Agree'd.

jill ellen

unread,
May 18, 2004, 3:45:45 PM5/18/04
to
>
> "Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas"

He woke up without lyme, and even though he is dealing with other
issues and is not perfectly healthy, he's apparently feeling
significantly better than before.

You keep ignoring the science. All you care about is the man--who
cares about that? That is *not* the core issue as a few of us keep
saying. It's the potential for effective treatment.


> You want everyone to believe there is something good about him so it does
> not reflect badly on you.

Well, you can do thumbnail pop psychology on James, but what about me?
I think there is good about the man.

> Bachynsky is going to be in the papers a lot now that he is in
jail,

Depends what you call a lot. Doesn't seem like national news.

> indictments are going to come out, and anyone who had an association with
> him is going to be tainted.

You're too angry, Rita. It's like anger just permeates your being.

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 18, 2004, 4:13:05 PM5/18/04
to
What I can't understand is why you have to keep going at her? You say Anger
permiates her being but you can't seem to stop yourself from adding fuel to her
fire if thats the case so whats the matter with you?

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 18, 2004, 5:49:20 PM5/18/04
to
I don't know about anyone else, but I was trying to make a point that more
than just Rita is hurt by her inability to see the obvious. When she
personally attacks others instead dealing with the issue at hand she hurts
other Lyme patients. As a leader in the Lyme community it also hurts us all
when she loses credibility for not being able to see the obvious, and
chooses instead to go on personal vendettas instead of dealing with issues.

She has her supporters and that is fine. But there are many others who have
lost confidence in her ability to lead in an objective manner. That is
simply stating a fact. It doesn't speak for everyone, but for many.

This is also a point that has not been well received by Rita and her
supporters. That is why I said good luck to all, and to all a good nite. At
some point one simply gives up because there is no vulnerability on the
other side to see anything but a very narrow opinion.

Prior to this post, I was trying to give Rita the last word, which proved my
point. Her last comments concerned a personal attack against me, and did not
deal with the issue. God, one can only do so much to try to help someone
else see what is clearly before them. At some point, like now, it is better
to simply let it go....


"PrincessKiara70" <princes...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040518161305...@mb-m14.aol.com...

PrincessKiara70

unread,
May 18, 2004, 6:14:02 PM5/18/04
to
>more
>than just Rita is hurt by her inability to see the obvious

Everyone see's things differently and is entitled to have an opinion even if it
doesn't agree with yours. We live in America where we can do that but to
continually brow beat someone into trying to see your point and your point only
hurts everyone as well. Can't you agree to disagree? Enough allready.

Message has been deleted

L. James Johnson

unread,
May 18, 2004, 7:14:30 PM5/18/04
to
Then why can't she simply acknowledge the obvious? Why is that inability
hurting her with other Lyme patients who can no longer trust her on big
issues because she hasn't been forthcoming or honest about the little
things?

And I am trying to drop this thread, but it seems to have a life of its own.

Nite gracie...


"Susan " <suf...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040518185839...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> x-no-archive: yes


>
> >
> >I don't know about anyone else, but I was trying to make a point that
more
> >than just Rita is hurt by her inability to see the obvious. When she
> >personally attacks others instead dealing with the issue at hand she
hurts
> >other Lyme patients.
>

> Bullshit. You have no capital to draw on in discrediting Rita, who's
never
> been associated with scamming Lyme patients as you are.


>
> > As a leader in the Lyme community it also hurts us all
> >when she loses credibility for not being able to see the obvious, and
> >chooses instead to go on personal vendettas instead of dealing with
issues.
>

> She's dealing with the issue of you and your allegiance to a lying scammer
and
> murderer.


>
> >
> >She has her supporters and that is fine.
>

> She's spent years earning the confidence of many, and she still has it.


>
> But there are many others who have
> >lost confidence in her ability to lead in an objective manner.
>

> Not anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
>
> Susan


Message has been deleted

jill ellen

unread,
May 19, 2004, 12:50:28 AM5/19/04
to
princes...@aol.com (PrincessKiara70) wrote in message news:<20040518161305...@mb-m14.aol.com>...

> What I can't understand is why you have to keep going at her?

Because she's trashing a therapy that actually helped some people get
well, and the theory behind it is sound.

She doesn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. She just
keeps attacking people and when they sincerely state their opinions
she just says they're diversionary tactics and talks about shovelling
you know what.

You say Anger
> permiates her being but you can't seem to stop yourself from adding fuel to her
> fire if thats the case so whats the matter with you?
>

I don't think I'm adding fuel to her fire, Robyn. She is barely
responding to my posts. She seems generally incensed.

jill ellen

unread,
May 19, 2004, 12:52:30 AM5/19/04
to
> Just the fact that either of you even converse with him is enough for me to
> know who to stay away from.. He is a disgusting excuse for a human being and
> anyone who sits here and converses with something like that must have a few
> screws loose. Go back and read his posts over the last month or so and if you
> don't see what most everyone else does on here? There's something wrong with
> you.


I skip the political postings. He's very good on scientific matters.

jill ellen

unread,
May 19, 2004, 12:53:38 AM5/19/04
to
princes...@aol.com (PrincessKiara70) wrote in message news:<20040518113749...@mb-m19.aol.com>...

> >No, she hasn't.
> >
> >Susan
>
> Agree'd.

Maybe she has a bigger presence on the west coast. Her name doesn't
come up much if at all in discussions and groups on the east coast.
Which is okay. I'm sure she's helped people in her local area.

Message has been deleted

RealityCheck

unread,
May 19, 2004, 10:12:50 AM5/19/04
to
jill...@yahoo.com (jill ellen) wrote in message news:<32779e16.04051...@posting.google.com>...
> Hmmm, you're willing to quote James Johnson as a credible source on
> the contents of the IV therapy....
>
> But not willing to count him as a credible source now, or even read
> his posts now?

Hmmm, you say that the criminal background of the sociopath Bachynsky
doesn't matter to you on the one hand, but you go out of your way to
argue that he had "magesterial authority" from Swiss medic and that
the clinic was permitted to operate in Italy and use DNP on the other
hand.

For one thing there never was a Swiss Medic approval. Call them and
ask them. Look on their website. That was just another lie from the
con man that you two passed along with no scrutiny or investigation.

Even if there was Swiss Medic approval which there wasn't, that
wouldn't have given him authority to use the drug in Italy, would it?

Nor do you possess even a basic understanding of what magesterial
prescription authority is. It basically amounts to the authority to
compound approved drugs, not to use illegal substances.

But your basic point is actually right. L James Jerkoff is so
unreliable that no one should ever believe anything he says.

But are you denying that Bachynsky used what rita says in the IVs? Or
are you just being contrary?

> Selective inattention--disqualifies the poster (you).

You should talk. Better yet shut up and go away.

> Anyway, my view of Dr. Bachynsky is just a sideline.

No your view of Bachynsky speaks volumes about your complete lack of a
moral or ethical compass.

What is even more galling is your suggestion that the young doctor was
responsible for his own death because he didn't bring family members
along with him.

Would you argue with a straight face that if you went to a hospital
for a treatment alone that the neglect and inattention of the staff
and their use of dangerous illegal treatment was the fault of the
patient if it was a real hospital instead of a front for a criminal
sociopath?

>It's whether
> ICHT worked in some, and why it did, that is interesting and counts
> and should be food for thought and further pursued if possible.

Get this straight. DNP is illegal for use in humans everywhere on the
planet earth. It has been outlawed for decades. It has no proven
medical value. It is known to cause kidney failure, blindness,
cataracts, pulmonary failure, cardiovascular collapse with alarming
frequency. It would never be found to be safe enough for use in humans
even if it was shown to be effective, which it hasn't.

The reports that you rely on to declare it a success in some are so
unreliable that they are an embarassment to anecdotal reporting. There
never was a study and this wasn't an experimental treatment. There is
no assurance that the nitwits who were stupid and desperate enough to
do this even ever had Lyme. Or what other conditions. We know that
they were treated with IV antibiotics and vitamins and HBOT at the
same time they supposedly underwent.

No one knows what the temporary improvement reported in some resulted
from.

The insistence that ongoing symptoms are now from other medical
conditions has no basis whatsoever. It is remiscent of what Steere and
Sigal and others say though, that symptoms in chronic lyme patients
are from anything but Lyme. I guess you wish to associate yourself
with their views?

What is probably most despicable is your unwillingness to accept your
own role in promoting this therapy and accept responsibility for being
taken in by this con man even though you knew his background going in
and your responsiblity for helping him lure desperate people into his
trap. You helped kill the ones who died.

Bachynsky and you ICHTists helped exaggerate successes, prematurely
reported cures, failed to update the inevitable relapses since the
placebo effect is always short lived, and sat by and made excuses
while bachynksy buried his mistakes literally.

You take moral relativism to a new extreme, to the point where your
complete lack of ethics morality or honesty becomes glaringly clear.

Even more despicable is the fact that you helped lure other people
hoping to "learn something" from their guinea pig experiences but
didn't even go yourself. L James jerkoff is stupid enough to have been
a guinea pig himself. You were smart enough not to go which makes you
worse.

> What happens to Dr. Bachynsky, really does NOT affect lyme patients
> today. What happened to the therapy, and whether a safer version of
> it could be available some day, THAT affects lyme patients. That
> should be the real concern here, not pi$$ing contests about whose view
> of this man is correct. That's gossip, and gossip is always kinda
> interesting, but meaningless for finding a cure for chronic lyme.

Nothing will ever happen with DNP. It is dangerous ineffective and
illegal. Get that through your head. The reason that big pharma isn't
pursuing it is that it has no value for human use. IT isn't that they
wouldn't want to make money off a viable treatment obviously.

And what else is important is your own responsibility for this whole
fiasco and how that affects your own crediblity with anyone who takes
you seriously, which is a small group of morons only.

What is important is your efforts to discredit Rita who has earned
respect and who has worked to help others not just herself like you
have.

I hope you and L James Jerkoff and the other ICHT bullies burn in hell
along with bachynsky and if there is a god who does justice you will.

RealityCheck

unread,
May 19, 2004, 10:15:48 AM5/19/04
to
jill...@yahoo.com (jill ellen) wrote in message news:<32779e16.04051...@posting.google.com>...

Didn't you say that Rita has no place psychoanalyzing L James Dipshit?

What qualifies you to psychoanalyze her?

And if anyone is angry it is you. Angry depressed bitter and childish.
Isn't it you who blames someone else for you getting Lyme?

Everyone knows your problems are entirely psychological anyway.

Can you spell HYPOCHONDRIAC? Can you spell WHINER? Can you spell SELF
ABSORBED?

(Answer: Jill Ellen Neimark)

Benny Jet

unread,
May 19, 2004, 2:17:58 PM5/19/04
to
Can you spell l-y-m-e r-a-g-e?

"RealityCheck" <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a1001d08.04051...@posting.google.com...

Message has been deleted

RealityCheck

unread,
May 19, 2004, 6:14:16 PM5/19/04
to
"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message news:<qNwqc.497646$Pk3.424159@pd7tw1no>...

> Then why can't she simply acknowledge the obvious?

She has acknowledged that you're a fucking asshole and nothing could
be more obvious L James shitforbrains

>Why is that inability
> hurting her with other Lyme patients who can no longer trust her on big
> issues because she hasn't been forthcoming or honest about the little
> things?

LOL Speak for yourself. And you do speak only for yourself. Nobody
appointed you spokesperson for any other Lyme patients thank god. You
conducted no poll. If anyone else has anything to say let them say it
for themselves.

You have now said several times that Rita has lost credibility with
Lyme patients. She hasn't lost credibility with anyone I know.

But you have. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. YOU went to
work for the sociopathic criminal Bachynsky knowing exactly who he was
and exactly what he was doing. And not for the first time you touted a
"therapy" which was not only NOT a cure or real treatment but was
actually dangerous and harmful.

And you have the unmitigated gall to throw mud at Rita who has served
the Lyme community for more than a decade selflessly and with nothing
in it for herself and who is one of the very few with the intelligence
and guts to call a dirtbag like bachynksy a dirtbag and to say that
the various Lyme emperors and empresses had no clothes???

Go fuck yourself you scumbag.

And go away.

> And I am trying to drop this thread, but it seems to have a life of its own.
>
> Nite gracie...

What a bunch of crap. You started this and you keep it going. When
you've had your say and tried to distract everyone from the truth then
you want it over? Sure you don't want anyone to know your role in this
or take responsibility. Sure you don't want to talk about that.

What an unbelievable asshole you are.

RealityCheck

unread,
May 19, 2004, 6:25:15 PM5/19/04
to
"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message news:<Axvqc.524550$oR5.236414@pd7tw3no>...

> I don't know about anyone else, but I was trying to make a point that more
> than just Rita is hurt by her inability to see the obvious.

Everyone sees the obvious L James Pinhead. You're an asshole, a big
gaping asshole.

>When she
> personally attacks others instead dealing with the issue at hand she hurts
> other Lyme patients.

No. Wrong again. When good people stand by while bad people do
terrrible things, that is a problem. Rita condemned this from the
start. And it isn't a personal attack to point out your involvement in
this and your refusal to accept responsibility for doing the bidding
of a sociopathic criminal who you knew was a criminal touting an
unsafe ineffective and illegal immoral scandalous rip off when you
chose to get involved with him.

>As a leader in the Lyme community it also hurts us all
> when she loses credibility for not being able to see the obvious, and
> chooses instead to go on personal vendettas instead of dealing with issues.

Wrong. She did the right thing by condemning this scandalous ripoff
and bachynsky and you. That gives her credibility.

> She has her supporters and that is fine.

Oh is that okay with you?

>But there are many others who have
> lost confidence in her ability to lead in an objective manner.

Bullshit. Other than the ICHT bullies and criminals including you and
Jill Ellen Neimark I don't see a single person standing up and
agreeing with you or appointing you as their spokesperson.

I would bet that anyone who thinks rita has "lost credibility" isn't
worth giving a shit what they think anyway.

>That is
> simply stating a fact. It doesn't speak for everyone, but for many.

Bullshit. Speak for yourself. Let anyone else who has something to say
speak for themselves.

It is so laughable when someone like you comes around CLAIMING to
speak for others. You're so full of shit you should start a manure
company.

By the way are you listing your business with Bachynksy on your
resume? LOL

> This is also a point that has not been well received by Rita and her
> supporters. That is why I said good luck to all, and to all a good nite. At
> some point one simply gives up because there is no vulnerability on the
> other side to see anything but a very narrow opinion.

Good. You made your point. It is on top of your head pinhead. Now move
on and go crawl back under your rock you scumbag.

> Prior to this post, I was trying to give Rita the last word, which proved my
> point.

Your point is obvious. On top of your head.

>Her last comments concerned a personal attack against me, and did not
> deal with the issue. God, one can only do so much to try to help someone
> else see what is clearly before them.

We can see clearly that you're an asshole trying to cover up your own
despicable actions. You and Jill deserve each other. Whrn you both
die, and go to hell where you belong why don't you get married? You
can share your amorality and buck passing. You can spend eternity
listen to a known hypochondriac witch whine and complain. You deserve
that. And you deserve to die the same agonizing deaths that the young
doctor that you helped lure to his death died. Alone.

> At some point, like now, it is better
> to simply let it go....

It would have been better to let it go before you got involved in the
first place.

RealityCheck

unread,
May 19, 2004, 6:34:36 PM5/19/04
to
"L. James Johnson" <ja...@LJamesJohnson.com> wrote in message news:<qH9qc.513275$oR5.303883@pd7tw3no>...
> Pulling back from the forest to see the trees, Lyme patients are in a deep
> hole that is not of their own making.

LOL You're in a deep dark hole. Your head is shoved so far up your ass
that you'll never see daylight.

>We desperately need help in the form
> of research money and an open mind from the conservative medical community.

And scandals like ICHT only make that goal more impossible to achieve.

> Until then, many of are left to self-diagnose, self-treat, and effectively
> experiment on ourselves in rather crude and barbaric ways.

Crude and barbaric. You got that right.

> When we fight amongst ourselves because some of our leader's inability to
> deal with facts, which includes them attacking individuals instead of
> issues, we have a credibility problem. We also become divided, weaker, and
> less effective.

Rita has dealt with the "facts" of ICHT from the start. The "Facts"
that you sought to obfuscate. The "facts" that you ignored and covered
up.

Fact 1. Bachynksy is a lifelong criminal and sociopath.
Fact 2. ICHT is illegal for human use everywhere on the planet\
Fact 3. You ignored fact 1 and fact 2 when you chose to get involved
with promoting his therapy for your own financial gain.
Fact 4. You continue to be an apologist for him and refuse to accept
responsibility for your role in misleading and harming Lyme patients
Fact 5. Rita spoke out about this from the start and now you are
trying to sling mud at her to divert attention from facts 1-4
Fact 6. You speak for no one but yourself.

> I can list many, many Lyme patients whose respect for Rita has dropped, not
> because as individuals they support ICHT (actually, many don't), but because
> they could see Rita's lack of objectivity in her many posts when the issue
> was hotly debated.

Bullshit. If there are any such patients they can speak for
themselves. But they haven't. There aren't any such patients, you're
making it up trying to act as if you speak for some otherwise silent
and invisible constituency which doesn't exist because you have zero
credibility and can't just speak for yourself.

Go away.

> As a result, there is less of a tendancy to listen to Rita on other issues.

Bullshit. As a result of rita's consistently telling the truth and
being often the only one willing to stand up and say that the emperor
has no clothes she is one of the only ones here or in all of lymeland
who has any credibility whatsoever.

> Many of my conversations with Lyme patients in this area are left with Rita
> simply being put in a box that mostly isn't opened.

LOL More unmitigated bullshit.

> Not everyone, obviously. And I don't mean to speak for all, because I know
> that isn't the case. However, it is true for many.

You not only don't speak for all, you speak for none but yourself. One
lone flaming asshole.

> Who is it hurting? A divided, weaker, and less effective Lyme community is
> bad for everyone. It ends up hurting all of us.

Oh fuck yourself asshole.

> As I said, carry on Rita, blast away...your loss is our loss.

The loss of you would be a large gain.

> "PrincessKiara70" <princes...@aol.com> wrote in message

> news:20040517162250...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> > >However, you have lost credibility
> > >with very ill Lyme patients, the very people you are there to help.
> >
> > I think you need to stop speaking for everyone. There are ALOT of us very
> ill
> > people and I don't think you have the right to speak for any of us. I
> Don't
> > know Rita from a hole in the wall but I don't appreciate someone I don't
> even
> > know speaking for me. I would like for you to post who all these people
> are
> > that she has lost credibility with? Then please post how it has hurt the
> Lyme
> > Cause and in who's eyes.

0 new messages