Re; The Two Pound diet
Michael Roose
| Here you go. Please feel free to visit with the author on sci.med
|> cardiology or scimed.nutrition or email him directly.
|>
|> http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp
On 26 Apr 2002 06:42:59 -0700, clay...@hotmail.com (victoria) wrote:
|This is hilarious - check it out ! No data from a nobody - just a
|catchy name "Dr Chung's Famous Two Pound Diet" - and a set of cutesy
|instructions.
When you read Chung's CV (you did read the CV didn't you?..oh, you
didn't?)
Moving on.
|A guy who claims to be a cardiologist (might be lying - it's a
|possibility - whoa, what a conspiracy to hide the truth !!!) who has
|been in practice for 8 years. This guy MUST be the expert !
I can affirm his MD and his PHD. As to his expertise, Chung reports
both exceptional weight loss AND exceptional retention of weight loss
matched with concurrent improvements in CVascular health.
Can Atkins or anyone else promote the same long term adherence. Nope.
|That Atkins guy now, the no-nothing fraud - the guy who's been a
|practicing cardiologist for more than 40 years, treating over 65,000
|patients. The liar who, with his wife, is so afraid of the truth that
|he has endowed a foundation which has given significant amounts of
|money to places like Duke and Harvard to study carb-controlled diets.
Which institutions report how great the Atkins diet is for CV health.
My, are we surprised or what?
|Hey, if I set up a web page and hang around a couple of newsgroups,
|will you shill for me ?
Not a chance. I shill for no one and certainly not for dolts that
aren't doing their homework.
Who criticize without even reading the pertinent information.
Ron Ritzman
<somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>When you read Chung's CV (you did read the CV didn't you?..oh, you
>didn't?)
Oh I did. I do think his observation about the mountain climbers only
eating 10 pounds a food a week and comparing it to the 10 pounds a day some
of his obese patients ate on their "McDiet" is a good way of demonstrating
the enormous amounts of food we eat. It reminded me of a comparison made
between the American solder in Vietnam with his 100 pound back pack, much
of it food, and his Viet Cong adversary with his little bag of rice.
Probably an exaggeration.
However, I think that an actual diet plan based on the weight of one's food
is just as defeatable by the dieter as both the standard low fat approach
and low carbing are. I can think of several ways putting a lot of calories
into my body and yet still stay within my 2 pound allotment. Anything
either very high in fat or very high in sugar with little fiber or protein
should do the trick.
It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
calorie density. Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
easily put me over the limit.
Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
maintain weight.
--
Ron Ritzman |[losing fat] is like running a government
|You have to take out more then you put in
|-- Smokey
Michael Roose
<rrit...@springmail.com> wrote:
|>When you read Chung's CV (you did read the CV didn't you?..oh, you
|>didn't?)
|
|Oh I did.
Are you "victoria" in disguise"?
| I do think his observation about the mountain climbers only
|eating 10 pounds a food a week and comparing it to the 10 pounds a day some
|of his obese patients ate on their "McDiet" is a good way of demonstrating
|the enormous amounts of food we eat. It reminded me of a comparison made
|between the American solder in Vietnam with his 100 pound back pack, much
|of it food, and his Viet Cong adversary with his little bag of rice.
|Probably an exaggeration.
Not much of one. It was the staple of the Ho Chih Minh Trail.
|However, I think that an actual diet plan based on the weight of one's food
|is just as defeatable by the dieter as both the standard low fat approach
|and low carbing are.
That's bad news then. If lo-thisandthat AND limited food intake both
fail, we are doomed. There is nothing else.
Maybe it something in the water.
|I can think of several ways putting a lot of calories
|into my body and yet still stay within my 2 pound allotment. Anything
|either very high in fat or very high in sugar with little fiber or protein
|should do the trick.
See, your a bright guy and I keep telling Chung he needs to change his
eating plan to "The Two Pound Diet That Requires One Ounce Of Sense".
He thinks its too long.
|It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
|calorie density. Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
|easily put me over the limit.
Binge no good; no binge. Shrink tummy, then no binge.
|Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
|choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
|and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
|maintain weight.
Portion control good; basic to 2 lb. approach.
Ron Ritzman
"Michael Roose" <somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:fbslcuc4rnussh0iv...@4ax.com...
> That's bad news then. If lo-thisandthat AND limited food intake both
> fail, we are doomed. There is nothing else.
We'l adapt, just as we have in the past. Notice those "naturally thin"
people who seem to be able to eat what they like and as much as they like
and not get thin? Well, there has to be a reason for that. They have developed
feedback mechanisms that prevent them from putting on an unsafe amount
of body fat. As has been pointed out in another thread, people eat when there
is food so our bodies can store it for future famines, it's a survival mechanism
that served us well in the past but can kill us in an environment where food is
always available. In response, we are slowly developing another set of feedback
mechanisms that kick in when body fat levels get too high. These feedback
mechanisms perhaps work through apetite suppresion and adaptive thermogenesis.
However, since abundance of food is relatively new on the scene, not everybody
has this set point "ceiling".
Those of us unfortunate enough to not have this adaptation will have to rely
on "an ounce of sense" as you put it to control our weights.
> Binge no good; no binge. Shrink tummy, then no binge.
Tummy doesn't shrink, that's a myth and a binge every two weeks or so
actually helps me stick to my eating plan. This scheme has allowed me to
lose 125 pounds so anybody who thinks it is bad is invited to bite me.
> Portion control good; basic to 2 lb. approach.
Two pound approach will work for many but it has the same drawbacks of
other artificial food intake regulation schemes like calorie counting and
journaling. In the long run, it is good food choices and common sense based
portion control along with moving your ass that will control your weight.
I for one don't want to have to carry around a calorie counter, food diary, and
scale for the rest of my life.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:59:53 -0400, Michael Roose
> <somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >When you read Chung's CV (you did read the CV didn't you?..oh, you
> >didn't?)
>
> Oh I did. I do think his observation about the mountain climbers only
> eating 10 pounds a food a week and comparing it to the 10 pounds a day some
> of his obese patients ate on their "McDiet" is a good way of demonstrating
> the enormous amounts of food we eat. It reminded me of a comparison made
> between the American solder in Vietnam with his 100 pound back pack, much
> of it food, and his Viet Cong adversary with his little bag of rice.
> Probably an exaggeration.
>
> However, I think that an actual diet plan based on the weight of one's food
> is just as defeatable by the dieter as both the standard low fat approach
> and low carbing are. I can think of several ways putting a lot of calories
> into my body and yet still stay within my 2 pound allotment.
That would be one's approach if you do not have any motivation to lose weight.
The same could be said for any diet plan currently available except lifetime
incarceration in a concentration camp.
> Anything
> either very high in fat or very high in sugar with little fiber or protein
> should do the trick.
>
Sure, 2 lbs of Crisco will approach 8000 cal per day. However, if you are
currently eating 4 lbs of Criscao per day, I would still be certain that you
will lose weight.
>
> It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
> calorie density.
Why? Last I checked, humans don't sense the caloric density of what they eat.
> Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
> easily put me over the limit.
I have obese patients who are vegan... I counsel them against the binging.
>
>
> Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
> choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
> and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
> maintain weight.
>
I used to believe that too until I saw the 95% failure rate with my own
patients...
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Michael Roose
<rrit...@springmail.com> wrote:
|Notice those "naturally thin"
|people who seem to be able to eat what they like and as much as they like
|and not get thin? Well, there has to be a reason for that. They have developed
|feedback mechanisms that prevent them from putting on an unsafe amount
|of body fat.
What do you see those mechanisms as being? Thermogenesis? Decelerated
fat retention?
|Tummy doesn't shrink, that's a myth and a binge every two weeks or so
|actually helps me stick to my eating plan.
God point. I am not sure if there is a physical, measurable volume
reduction or if the stomach is able to be comfortable with less food.
The stomach does distend in order to accommodate overindulgence.
| This scheme has allowed me to
|lose 125 pounds so anybody who thinks it is bad is invited to bite me.
Only if you taste good :)
|Two pound approach will work for many but it has the same drawbacks of
|other artificial food intake regulation schemes like calorie counting and
|journaling.
No calorie counting.
|I for one don't want to have to carry around a calorie counter, food diary, and
|scale for the rest of my life.
My sense of it is that, at some point, you don't have to journal or
weigh any longer since you will get a feel for the weights of food and
the amounts you are taking in.
I haven't asked Chung if the Two Pound Diet is a daily restriction or
an average over periods. Say, 60 pounds in a 30 day month.
This would allow one to binge if the monthly limit is met.
bob geary
news:3CCC25E9...@heartmdphd.com...
What failure rates do you see now, with the two-pounds-a-day plan? And how
many patients are on this plan? Michael Roose claimed that it had a very
high success rate, but was unable to provide specifics.
Thanks,
bobg
Barbara
> > It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
> > calorie density.
>
> Why? Last I checked, humans don't sense the caloric density of what they eat.
Because your plan would discourage people from eating a lot of
*anything*. But a pound of broccoli, should you be able to stomach it,
would pack about 50 calories. I don't think many people would get fat
on that.
This is the first time I've come across your diet, and I'm fascinated
by the contrast with the Volumetrics plan, based on energy density.
The fundamental basis of that is that most people, left to themselves,
eat about the same weight of food a day.... it says 2-3lb for most
people. So it advises deliberately choosing foods with a low energy
density, and these naturally displace foods with a higher energy
density, hence reducing total calorie intake, since total weight of
food stays about the same.
>
> > Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
> > easily put me over the limit.
>
> I have obese patients who are vegan... I counsel them against the binging.
There's a difference between being vegan (they could fill up on
sugar/fat/flour combinations, as long as none of the ingredients had
been near an animal), and eating large amounts of low energy-dense
veggies, which help to satisfy hunger but provide few calories.
> > Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
> > choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
> > and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
> > maintain weight.
> >
>
> I used to believe that too until I saw the 95% failure rate with my own
> patients...
Like I said, I haven't seen your diet before, so I'm curious.
What proportion of your patients who start this plan stick with it?
How much weight do they lose, and do they keep it off? Are they still
overweight at the end, or normal weight?
Thanks,
Barbara
Noreen Cooper
: Ron Ritzman wrote:
:> Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
:> choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
:> and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
:> maintain weight.
:>
: I used to believe that too until I saw the 95% failure rate with my own
: patients...
Too many people ignore the psychological component of overeating. I've
struggled with food issues most of my life and found more benefit in books
like "Thin Within" by Judy Halliday (used to be Judy Wardell) and
"Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating" by Geneen Roth than any diet plan I
ever tried.
And then I must say, completely understanding the psychological component
isn't always enough. Ultimately, food choices, portion control, and
exercise must also play a part. I spent ten years understanding the
psychological issues behind using food as comfort or distraction. The
difference between naturally thin people and those who struggle with
weight issues, IMO, are the naturally thin (and I'm not talking about
unnaturally thin anorexics or bulemics) aren't inclined to overeat, pile
huge portions on their plates, or turn to food for unfulfilled
psychological reasons. And then going back to the opposite POV, if obese
people don't understand the psychological components to overeating, all
the portion control in the world won't amount to much long-term success.
I spent ten years finding my way out of the jungle of food obsession. I
did take up with the Jenny Craig program to finally drop down to my
desired weight. I'm not sure I'd recommend Jenny Craig to heart patients
though. Too much sodium in their meals. But mostly, Jenny Craig is about
portion control, exercise, and a good balanced diet.
Life is so much easier when food is no longer a focus. That's the real
task, finding ways to enrich your life where food is no longer the focus.
Noreen
Barbara
> Too many people ignore the psychological component of overeating. I've
> struggled with food issues most of my life and found more benefit in books
> like "Thin Within" by Judy Halliday (used to be Judy Wardell) and
> "Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating" by Geneen Roth than any diet plan I
> ever tried.
>
> And then I must say, completely understanding the psychological component
> isn't always enough. Ultimately, food choices, portion control, and
> exercise must also play a part. I spent ten years understanding the
> psychological issues behind using food as comfort or distraction.
I completely agree. And you give me hope, in that it took you ten
years. It is 7 years since I realised that my basic problem was my
eating - and the weight was effectively a symptom of disordered
eating, which could not be fixed by going on a diet. I continued to
*gain* weight over the following two years, as I battled with the
eating.
I seem to have turned the corner, and the trend in my weight now is
downwards, though not without lapses. I'm still obese, though I have
reduced my BMI from 46 to 36. I still have work to do on the
compulsivity, which flares up from time to time. I'd have hoped that,
after 7 years, it would have been sorted.... but you say it took you
ten years.
I needed to do a certain amount of work on the psychological stuff
before I was in any position to make use of the nutritional knowledge
- which I had in abundance, BTW. It's such a shame that the doctors I
encountered over the years who recommended weight loss never looked
deeper. If I could have had that realisation about my eating problem
10 years earlier, I would never have got so big, and maybe I could
have avoided diabetes.
So to any doctors/nurses/dietitians out there - when your obese
patients keep on failing to lose weight, do you consider the
psychological aspects? Are you aware of binge eating disorder? Do you
refer your patients appropriately?
Few things help an obese binge eater less than giving them a diet and
telling them to stick to it.
Barbara
Michael Roose
wrote:
|I needed to do a certain amount of work on the psychological stuff
|before I was in any position to make use of the nutritional knowledge
|- which I had in abundance.......So to any doctors/nurses/dietitians out there - when your obese
|patients keep on failing to lose weight, do you consider the
|psychological aspects? Are you aware of binge eating disorder? Do you
|refer your patients appropriately? Few things help an obese binge eater less than giving them a diet and
|telling them to stick to it.
Total agreement.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> <snip>So to any doctors/nurses/dietitians out there - when your obese
> patients keep on failing to lose weight, do you consider the
> psychological aspects?
yes.
> Are you aware of binge eating disorder?
yes.
> Do you
> refer your patients appropriately?
>
yes.
>
> Few things help an obese binge eater less than giving them a diet and
> telling them to stick to it.
>
However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have an eating disorder.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Noreen Cooper
: I completely agree. And you give me hope, in that it took you ten
: years. It is 7 years since I realised that my basic problem was my
: eating - and the weight was effectively a symptom of disordered
: eating, which could not be fixed by going on a diet. I continued to
: *gain* weight over the following two years, as I battled with the
: eating.
Geneen Roth said it took her about ten years as well to break free from
the compulsion to overeat. I had someone email me privately, wanting to
know if I could detail the psychological reasons on why people overeat.
People overeat for a variety of psychological reasons: out of boredom,
frustration, anger, loneliness, fatigue, stress, abusive childhoods,
overindulgent childhoods, incest, you-name-it. My personal odyssey on why
*I* compulsively overate isn't the definitive reason on why all compulsive
overeaters binge.
: I seem to have turned the corner, and the trend in my weight now is
: downwards, though not without lapses. I'm still obese, though I have
: reduced my BMI from 46 to 36. I still have work to do on the
: compulsivity, which flares up from time to time. I'd have hoped that,
: after 7 years, it would have been sorted.... but you say it took you
: ten years.
Wonderful news. The biggest relief is no longer having food issues run
your life. I don't need to tell another compulsive overeater just how
many minutes of the day is spent obsessing over weight, body image, and
food issues. But there are so many steps in between food obsession and
freedom from the obsession. Much of it has to do with finding ways other
than food to nurture oneself. No other maladaption is filled with the
same self-loathing that goes hand-in-hand with compulsive overeating. At
least those who drink or drug too much in the earlier stages get some
oblivion from the consequences of their actions.
Underlying so much of what is considered maladaptive behavior is some
sense of our trying to take care of ourselves -- whether it is to reduce
stress or numb festering psychological wounds. As long as the food
remains the great solace in one's life, no diet will work for any length
of time.
: So to any doctors/nurses/dietitians out there - when your obese
: patients keep on failing to lose weight, do you consider the
: psychological aspects? Are you aware of binge eating disorder? Do you
: refer your patients appropriately?
: Few things help an obese binge eater less than giving them a diet and
: telling them to stick to it.
I agree. And I know some doctors out there who read this newsgroup (I'm
on the cardiology group). When there is non-compliance with the DASH
diet, when cardiologists throw up their hands wondering why their patients
won't lose weight, it would help if more of the psychological components
to overeating were included in cardiac rehab.
Noreen
Noreen Cooper
: However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have
: an eating disorder.
I respectfully disagree. Doctors are more inclined to diagnose anorexia
and bulemia as eating disorders. I believe doctors are less inclined to
recognize compulsive overeating as such. But anyone who has gained a
significant amount of weight so that their heart may be unnecessarily
taxed by a larger frame, in my opinion, does have a disordered
relationship with food. It may not be as immediately life-threatening as
anorexia or bulemia, but the heart is still compromised by the
complications of the extra weight one carries on one's frame.
I have quite a bit of respect for you, Dr. Chung, but this is an area
which cardiologists could greatly improve: understanding why obese people
can often remain uncompliant about losing weight. It goes far beyond
adhering to bucking up to the 2 pound diet or any other plan which
encourages portion control.
Noreen
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Noreen,
We all have an instinctual tendency to overeat especially when food is abundant and
heaped before us.
I do not feel that we can call it a compulsion because to do so would imply that it
is treatable/extinguishable.
There are plenty of examples of obesity in other mammals. Most would be hard
pressed to say those animals have a compulsive overeating disorder.
It has been my experience that most people who are obese are not aware that they are
overeating. Most of these folks feel they are *not eating enough* of the healthier
foods and/or are not exercising enough. If I had a nickle for every time I hear
from my obese patients "Doc, I've been too busy to exercise and to eat healthy" ....
Respectfully,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Barbara
> Barbara wrote:
>
> > <snip>So to any doctors/nurses/dietitians out there - when your obese
> > patients keep on failing to lose weight, do you consider the
> > psychological aspects?
>
> yes.
>
> > Are you aware of binge eating disorder?
>
> yes.
>
> > Do you
> > refer your patients appropriately?
> >
>
> yes.
That's great to hear..... you're quite different from most of the
doctors I've met, then!
> > Few things help an obese binge eater less than giving them a diet and
> > telling them to stick to it.
> >
>
> However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have an eating disorder.
I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
from that?
Barbara
Barbara
> Wonderful news. The biggest relief is no longer having food issues run
> your life. I don't need to tell another compulsive overeater just how
> many minutes of the day is spent obsessing over weight, body image, and
> food issues.
I got a degree of emotional relief from weight tyranny quite early on.
I stopped defining myself as a bad person because of my weight, and
stopped putting things off "until I'm thin". There are limitations
that obesity places on daily living..... but many of them are actually
in our heads rather than our bodies.
> Underlying so much of what is considered maladaptive behavior is some
> sense of our trying to take care of ourselves -- whether it is to reduce
> stress or numb festering psychological wounds. As long as the food
> remains the great solace in one's life, no diet will work for any length
> of time.
Amen! And since I don't smoke or do drugs, and drink only moderately
(and not for stress relief), I didn't have too many other places to
go. It takes a lot of time and effort to replace dysfunctional coping
strategies with positive ones - because the dysfunctional ones are so
deeply seated.
> I agree. And I know some doctors out there who read this newsgroup (I'm
> on the cardiology group). When there is non-compliance with the DASH
> diet, when cardiologists throw up their hands wondering why their patients
> won't lose weight, it would help if more of the psychological components
> to overeating were included in cardiac rehab.
..... and in diabetes care too. I'm fortunate in that I'd done part of
my self-discovery about my binge eating before I developed diabetes.
The first dietitian I saw after diagnosis *listened* to me about my
struggles with binge eating, and worked with me. That helped..... no
absolutist diet sheet!
My experiences since then have not all been as happy. My last doctor
was rail-thin, and fond of the phrase "non-compliant". As time goes
on, I'm becoming more assertive in telling my doctors - early on, if
possible - about my history with failed dieting, binge eating, and the
progress I've made.
I guess the subtext to that is this: I know my weight is relevant to
my diabetes, and I'm doing the best I can to address it, but it's made
more difficult because the tendency to eat compulsively is still
there. I need support and encouragement, and affirmation that the
weight I've lost to date is significant. I *don't* need to be told off
for still being obese, or for my weight staying steady rather than
losing.... that's a big improvement on gaining.
As it happens, I have a checkup tomorrow. By my reckoning, I've lost
precisely 2lb since my last visit three months ago.... I'm half
expecting an inquisition as to why the steady loss of the previous six
months has come to a halt.
Barbara
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<3CD040C9...@heartmdphd.com>...
> <snip>
> > However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have an eating disorder.
>
> I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
> disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
> from that?
Its been less than one in ten for my patient population.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
bob geary
> Barbara wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:<3CD040C9...@heartmdphd.com>...
> > <snip>
> > > However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not*
have an eating disorder.
> >
> > I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
> > disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
> > from that?
>
> Its been less than one in ten for my patient population.
>
Hi, Dr Chung, it's good to see you back.
How big (ha ha) is your population of obese patients?
And to repeat an earlier question from this thread that you might have
missed: what percentage of that population has had long-term success with
the diet idea which gives this thread its name?
Michael Roose wouldn't tell me, either - he said to ask you.
Thanks,
bobg
Kathy
> From: "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com>
> Subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet
>
>
> There are plenty of examples of obesity in other mammals. Most would be hard
> pressed to say those animals have a compulsive overeating disorder.
Although I wouldn't call it common, some cats respond to stress by eating.
A more species-specific typical response is over-grooming, essentially
licking themselves bald in patches. Nonetheless, I wouldn't consider
running to the food bowl for comfort to be rare in that species, as one
example. Dogs, it seems have much more a propensity to drink more (water,
obviously), but that is more boredom thing usually than a stress thing.
I suspect to some degree, many of the obesity causality issues could be
answered in part by looking at dogs and cats. It may be that some pets are
obese because their owners make too many calories available to them and they
have an instinct to overeat them. But, I think the more common cause of
obesity in cats may turn out to be that pet food is too high in carbs.
There are a lot of free choice fed cats and dogs that are thin. And it's
looking like feline obesity and type 2 diabetes seem to respond pretty darn
well to high protein diets and increased exercise.
-kathy
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
> news:3CD16BB7...@heartmdphd.com...
> > Barbara wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
> news:<3CD040C9...@heartmdphd.com>...
> > > <snip>
> > > > However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not*
> have an eating disorder.
> > >
> > > I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
> > > disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
> > > from that?
> >
> > Its been less than one in ten for my patient population.
> >
>
> Hi, Dr Chung, it's good to see you back.
>
> How big (ha ha) is your population of obese patients?
Nearly everyone I see... About 90% of my patients are significantly
overweight (more than 20 lbs over their ideal body weight).
>
>
> And to repeat an earlier question from this thread that you might have
> missed: what percentage of that population has had long-term success with
> the diet idea which gives this thread its name?
100% have had weight loss upon decreasing their intake to 2 lbs per day. My
definition of long-term success is maintenance of near ideal body weight until
the time of death...
By this definition, we will have to wait several decades for the answer. The
preliminary observations have been very encouraging. Just seeing the results
have been rewarding for me personally and has made my being a physician more
meaningful.
>
>
> Michael Roose wouldn't tell me, either - he said to ask you.
>
There is no reason why Michael Roose would know.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
I would write again... most would be hard pressed to say obese animals have a
compulsive eating disorder.
Instead, most would say their owners overfeed them.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
bettina
>
> >
> > And to repeat an earlier question from this thread that you might have
> > missed: what percentage of that population has had long-term success
with
> > the diet idea which gives this thread its name?
>
> 100% have had weight loss upon decreasing their intake to 2 lbs per day.
My
> definition of long-term success is maintenance of near ideal body weight
until
> the time of death...
one question: is that two pounds cooked or two pounds raw? ie: 1 lb of
fresh macaroni is gonna become several pounds of cooked noodle, and a lotof
meats might start out a pound and once cooked you get 1/2-4/5 of that
weight.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Please see the instructions on my web site.
bettina
have a
> compulsive eating disorder.
>
> Instead, most would say their owners overfeed them.
>
either that or they are bored or...aCAT. every cat I"ve ever owned was fat.
I think they're just lazy, but they swore up and down that they got lots of
exercise. I love cats, but you just cant' trust 'em. (heeheehee)
btina
Noreen Cooper
wrote:
: We all have an instinctual tendency to overeat especially when food is
: abundant and heaped before us.
Certainly affluent societies where food is more plentiful can account in
part for the rise in obesity. Everyone does overeat from time to time;
however, the difference between a person who never diets but seems to
maintain what's considered a healthy body weight for their height and
frame and a person who is considered medically obese is a matter of
frequency.
: I do not feel that we can call it a compulsion because to do so would
: imply that it is treatable/extinguishable.
Ah, but it is treatable and it is extinguishable. If you have any
interest in reading up further on the subject, I'd recommend starting
with Geneen Roth. She even has a book entitled "Feeding the Hungry
Heart" (how's that for a pseudo-cardiology tie-in ;-).
: There are plenty of examples of obesity in other mammals. Most would be hard
: pressed to say those animals have a compulsive overeating disorder.
I'm not so sure. Obesity in animals rarely happens in the wild. However,
obesity in zoo animals can be quite a problem. Without getting too far
out of left field with anthropomorphism, wouldn't you say zoo animals
might be experiencing more boredom/less exercise than animals in the wild?
Wouldn't this lead to zoo animals eating more out of psychological hunger
than the natural hunger one might experience in the wild?
: It has been my experience that most people who are obese are not aware
: that they are overeating.
This is a noted argument in the studies of compulsive overeating: that
people do lose touch with their natural hunger and stretch their stomachs
to such a point that they are unaware of overeating.
: Most of these folks feel they are *not eating
: enough* of the healthier foods and/or are not exercising enough. If I
: had a nickle for every time I hear from my obese patients "Doc, I've
: been too busy to exercise and to eat healthy" ....
Ah, but that could be just what they're telling you to get off the hook.
I can guarantee you there's more behind those words than being too busy
to eat healthy.
Okay, here's a challenge. Next patient who comes to you with a pat answer
of why s/he's being non-compliant, would you feel comfortable asking them
what they've been doing to alleviate the stress they're experiencing by
leading such a busy life. How are they consistently treating themselves
to lessen their frustrations, reduce their stress? If your patient can't
think of a single thing, I can bet you the scales will show you where they
are getting their solace.
Noreen
bettina
detract from it. as I have a friend on BP meds and a diuretic and her Dr
won't let her try Atkins till she's weened off the diuretic, maybe I"ll
suggest that one to her. that way she can keep her pasta.
I'd guess that the people that "knocked the scale off the table" are
probably also guilty of weighing pasta dry and mean cooked, so they can get
the lowest weight for whatever they are eating. I'm guessing that if you
eat an apple, you can reweigh and subtract the core you're throwing away,
right?
I think I"ll try to incorperate this. it might be the kick that my
metabolism needs, since the Atkins alone isnt' doing great things for me (I
didn't even hit the 4# in the 2 weeks of induction that they listed for
extremely resistant metabolisms!)
Thanks!
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> In sci.med.cardiology Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com>
> wrote:
>
> : We all have an instinctual tendency to overeat especially when food is
> : abundant and heaped before us.
>
> Certainly affluent societies where food is more plentiful can account in
> part for the rise in obesity.
European societies are as affluent as Americam society and yet the rates of severe
obesity is noticeably higher here in the U.S.
> Everyone does overeat from time to time;
> however, the difference between a person who never diets but seems to
> maintain what's considered a healthy body weight for their height and
> frame and a person who is considered medically obese is a matter of
> frequency.
frequency of what ? eating?
>
>
> : I do not feel that we can call it a compulsion because to do so would
> : imply that it is treatable/extinguishable.
>
> Ah, but it is treatable and it is extinguishable.
Hunger when seeing/smelling food when one has already had plenty to eat is neither
treatable nor extinguishable.
> If you have any
> interest in reading up further on the subject, I'd recommend starting
> with Geneen Roth. She even has a book entitled "Feeding the Hungry
> Heart" (how's that for a pseudo-cardiology tie-in ;-).
>
> : There are plenty of examples of obesity in other mammals. Most would be hard
> : pressed to say those animals have a compulsive overeating disorder.
>
> I'm not so sure. Obesity in animals rarely happens in the wild.
Where food is more scarce and hardly comes in 50 lb bags.
> However,
> obesity in zoo animals can be quite a problem. Without getting too far
> out of left field with anthropomorphism, wouldn't you say zoo animals
> might be experiencing more boredom/less exercise than animals in the wild?
No.. I would say that if they are overweight then they have been overfed either by
their keepers or by well meaning visitors who ignore the sign "Do not feed the
animals".
>
> Wouldn't this lead to zoo animals eating more out of psychological hunger
> than the natural hunger one might experience in the wild?
The animals' survival instinct is to eat everything when its available because they
never know when they are going to need those fat stores when their keepers stop
feeding them or they get kicked out into the wild on one of those release programs.
>
>
> : It has been my experience that most people who are obese are not aware
> : that they are overeating.
>
> This is a noted argument in the studies of compulsive overeating: that
> people do lose touch with their natural hunger and stretch their stomachs
> to such a point that they are unaware of overeating.
>
> : Most of these folks feel they are *not eating
> : enough* of the healthier foods and/or are not exercising enough. If I
> : had a nickle for every time I hear from my obese patients "Doc, I've
> : been too busy to exercise and to eat healthy" ....
>
> Ah, but that could be just what they're telling you to get off the hook.
In the context of everything else they tell me... it is what they believe.
>
> I can guarantee you there's more behind those words than being too busy
> to eat healthy.
>
There is and it is this:
Myth: You can lose weight by eating healthy with more fresh fruits and vegetables.
Ask around... you will be surprised at how many people believe this myth.
>
> Okay, here's a challenge. Next patient who comes to you with a pat answer
> of why s/he's being non-compliant, would you feel comfortable asking them
> what they've been doing to alleviate the stress they're experiencing by
> leading such a busy life.
The answer that I cite was for my observation of folks being overweight and not
from any observed non-compliance.
My typical "non-compliant" patient is one who keeps saying they are unable to find
a food scale in the stores they shop at. I do not believe your approach is going
to help me with this apparent inability to locate a food scale.
> How are they consistently treating themselves
> to lessen their frustrations, reduce their stress? If your patient can't
> think of a single thing, I can bet you the scales will show you where they
> are getting their solace.
>
The overconsumption of alcohol will lead to obesity but this would be an addiction
rather than a instinctual drive to overeat.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
You are welcome :-) As with all diets, please involve your doctor as per the
Chocolate Peanut
>I would write again... most would be hard pressed to say obese animals have a
>compulsive eating disorder.
>
>Instead, most would say their owners overfeed them.
You haven't met my dog, Dr C! She steals the cat's dinner... pulls the bin out
looking for food...she's just so greedy...:)
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> >From: "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
>
> >I would write again... most would be hard pressed to say obese animals have a
> >compulsive eating disorder.
> >
> >Instead, most would say their owners overfeed them.
>
> You haven't met my dog, Dr C! She steals the cat's dinner... pulls the bin out
> looking for food...she's just so greedy...:)
>
:-)
Michael Roose
<bobg...@gee-eye-ess.net> wrote:
|Hi, Dr Chung, it's good to see you back.
That's the "Chung Troll" to you.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Haven't left. By the way, I would respond to more of the posts but I
don't get all of them via my ISP.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Noreen Cooper
: European societies are as affluent as Americam society and yet the rates
: of severe obesity is noticeably higher here in the U.S.
Some of that has to do with America's historical role of creating needs
through advertising, where sophisticated psychological song-and-dance
routines create false needs for commodities and junk food. Some of it
probably has to do with some of the immigrants who came to America during
great times of famine in their own country; some of it may have to do with
the hard times people endured during the Great Depression: where scarcity
mentality can set up a chronic mindset to binge -- thus passing these
maladaptive habits down through the generations. And, of course, if you
ask certain Europeans, they'd tell you Americans were made up from the
refuse of Europe so it wouldn't take much to imagine we'd be more neurotic
collectively than they are. ;-)
: frequency of what ? eating?
Frequency of *over*-eating.
: Hunger when seeing/smelling food when one has already had plenty to eat
: is neither treatable nor extinguishable.
Yes it can be effectively treated through both a cognitive and behavioral
psychological approach. People need to re-train themselves to get in
touch with their natural hunger signals, to allow themselves to actually
get hungry. Many compulsive overeaters have no idea what it feels like to
be hungry, never allowing themselves to go long enough without food to
experience a true hunger pang.
: The animals' survival instinct is to eat everything when its available
: because they never know when they are going to need those fat stores
: when their keepers stop feeding them or they get kicked out into the
: wild on one of those release programs.
Certainly, your guess is as good as mine since we're not able to
communicate with animals in the same way we can communicate with humans.
But wouldn't you think a zoo animal after a period of time would know the
food supply never runs out? Then why would that animal eat food given to
them by visitors ten years down the line, accept food even after dining on
zoo fare? Boredom probably has something to do with it. What else is
there for a zoo animal to do but to eat? Same principle applies to
humans at times.
: Myth: You can lose weight by eating healthy with more fresh fruits and
: vegetables.
If you mean to emphasize the need for portion control, I can agree to that.
: My typical "non-compliant" patient is one who keeps saying they are
: unable to find a food scale in the stores they shop at. I do not
: believe your approach is going to help me with this apparent inability
: to locate a food scale.
And I'd argue even if your typical "non-compliant" patient bought a scale,
s/he'd still not follow your diet plan if food is functioning on more of a
psychological than physical level for them.
: The overconsumption of alcohol will lead to obesity but this would be an
: addiction rather than a instinctual drive to overeat.
This is where we differ. I don't believe there's an instinctual drive to
overeat to obesity. I have more faith in the body's sense of
self-preservation to allow that to happen. What complicates everything is
our minds. It's the mind which creates false needs. When the body has
had enough to eat and a person is still hungry, that hunger is a
psychological hunger, not a physical one.
Noreen
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> In sci.med.cardiology Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>
> : European societies are as affluent as Americam society and yet the rates
> : of severe obesity is noticeably higher here in the U.S.
>
> Some of that has to do with America's historical role of creating needs
> through advertising, where sophisticated psychological song-and-dance
> routines create false needs for commodities and junk food.
*exactly*
When you are offered the *value* of "supersizing" and you buy into the idea... you
are psychologically committed to eating all of it. If you do not eat all of it, you
will have wasted the *value* that you bought !
> Some of it
> probably has to do with some of the immigrants who came to America during
> great times of famine in their own country; some of it may have to do with
> the hard times people endured during the Great Depression: where scarcity
> mentality can set up a chronic mindset to binge -- thus passing these
> maladaptive habits down through the generations.
It's hard to imagine passing down these maladaptive habits through the generations
when other maladaptive habits (excessive frugality or compulsively saving money for
example) do not appear to be passed down. Also, Europeans have had more hardship in
that the World Wars were fought on their soil so they should have more of a chronic
mindset to binge than Americans.
Instead, I think we have to look at the concept of America being the "breadbasket"
of the world. Our agricultural industry with mechanization and increasing
efficiency has historically sought to expand demand to meet with growing ability to
supply and the result has been government subsidies to overfeed our population
(school milk and lunch programs, etc).
> And, of course, if you
> ask certain Europeans, they'd tell you Americans were made up from the
> refuse of Europe so it wouldn't take much to imagine we'd be more neurotic
> collectively than they are. ;-)
>
> : frequency of what ? eating?
>
> Frequency of *over*-eating.
>
> : Hunger when seeing/smelling food when one has already had plenty to eat
> : is neither treatable nor extinguishable.
>
> Yes it can be effectively treated through both a cognitive and behavioral
> psychological approach.
The hunger will still be there. It is very difficult to extinguish a conditioned
response especially when the stimulus is as pervasive and ubiquitous as food. It
is theoretically more difficult if not impossible to extinguish an instinct and in
the case of hunger, something that also has a physiological basis.
> People need to re-train themselves to get in
> touch with their natural hunger signals, to allow themselves to actually
> get hungry.
You make the distinction between natural versus "artificial" hunger. I would have
to take the position there is no such distinction.
> Many compulsive overeaters have no idea what it feels like to
> be hungry, never allowing themselves to go long enough without food to
> experience a true hunger pang.
How certain are you about the above statement ?
Is there really a difference between feeling hungry when you walk by something that
smells good when you have recently eaten versus when you have not eaten all day
aside from the relative intensity of hunger?
>
>
> : The animals' survival instinct is to eat everything when its available
> : because they never know when they are going to need those fat stores
> : when their keepers stop feeding them or they get kicked out into the
> : wild on one of those release programs.
>
> Certainly, your guess is as good as mine since we're not able to
> communicate with animals in the same way we can communicate with humans.
> But wouldn't you think a zoo animal after a period of time would know the
> food supply never runs out?
Only if they really understand what their captivity is all about. I doubt that
insight is available to most Zoo animals.
> Then why would that animal eat food given to
> them by visitors ten years down the line, accept food even after dining on
> zoo fare?
Instinct.
> Boredom probably has something to do with it.
Then obesity should strike all caged animals. Does it ?
Is obesity rampant among our human prison population? The answer is actually *no*.
Is obesity rampant among our human mental ward population? Here too the answer is
*no*,
Have I seen anyone hospitalized for several weeks of antibiotics (for endocarditis
or TB) gain weight on the regimented fare of hospital food gain weight? *no*
> What else is
> there for a zoo animal to do but to eat?
Sleep, mate, spectate, meditate (if they can get bored...why not?).
> Same principle applies to
> humans at times.
>
> : Myth: You can lose weight by eating healthy with more fresh fruits and
> : vegetables.
>
> If you mean to emphasize the need for portion control, I can agree to that.
>
> : My typical "non-compliant" patient is one who keeps saying they are
> : unable to find a food scale in the stores they shop at. I do not
> : believe your approach is going to help me with this apparent inability
> : to locate a food scale.
>
> And I'd argue even if your typical "non-compliant" patient bought a scale,
> s/he'd still not follow your diet plan if food is functioning on more of a
> psychological than physical level for them.
I would have to agree that if a patient is psychologically dependent on food as a
mean of coping to a degree where some would even consider it a pathological
addiction, then I would expect such a person to have trouble even if they got a food
scale. But the only way to recognize this is by quantifying the amount of food they
are eating.
>
>
> : The overconsumption of alcohol will lead to obesity but this would be an
> : addiction rather than a instinctual drive to overeat.
>
> This is where we differ. I don't believe there's an instinctual drive to
> overeat to obesity. I have more faith in the body's sense of
> self-preservation to allow that to happen.
The instinct to overeat to obesity is a means of self-preservation because
historically it did allow self-preservation.
> What complicates everything is
> our minds. It's the mind which creates false needs. When the body has
> had enough to eat and a person is still hungry, that hunger is a
> psychological hunger, not a physical one.
Instinct is via the mind... (i.e. it is psychologically driven).
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
starb...@inthesky.com
and don't you think the American 'fast food' regime has a lot to do
with it ? Easy,fast,cheap and fatty .. The kids get so used to it that
'real' food ie ..veggies etc don't have the same taste.
I very easily lost 30 lbs 5 years ago.. portion control, NO fried food
and very limited sweets.. and NOT eating unless I was really hungry ! No
'snacks' .. and have kept the weight off :) ..luckily it became a life
style change (habit) !
'nita in Houston
Noreen Cooper
: *exactly*
: When you are offered the *value* of "supersizing" and you buy into the
: idea... you are psychologically committed to eating all of it. If you
: do not eat all of it, you will have wasted the *value* that you bought !
This is what every civil debate should lead to...some agreement! :-)
Really, this is the entire point of my argument. Even you use the phrase
"psychologically committed to eating all of it." It is the mind which
sets up a false need for much more food than the body needs. When the
stomach is shrunk to its natural size, only a fistful of food is needed to
fill it. True hunger pangs (when no food is in the stomach) result in a
stomach-grumbling body-based reaction. False hunger pangs are not
biologically based (when one has eaten a huge meal and asks for the
dessert menu) and it's entirely psychologically based, where the mind
overrides the bodily sensation of being full after a big meal. How do the
two differ: one is centered in the body, the other is centered in the
mind.
: It's hard to imagine passing down these maladaptive habits through the
: generations when other maladaptive habits (excessive frugality or
: compulsively saving money for : example) do not appear to be passed down.
Haven't you heard of the clean-your-plate club? This habit is the genesis
of putting people out of touch with their natural satiation rhythms.
:> : Hunger when seeing/smelling food when one has already had plenty to eat
:> : is neither treatable nor extinguishable.
Yes, through behavioral and cognitive therapeutic interventions. But
we're getting into a "is-so/is-not" line of argument here. Perhaps I
should supply some citations from behavioral psychology. Or else you
might want to read "Feeding the Hungry Heart" and other such books one
day.
: Is obesity rampant among our human prison population? The answer is
: actually *no*.
: Is obesity rampant among our human mental ward population? Here too the
: answer is *no*,
: Have I seen anyone hospitalized for several weeks of antibiotics (for
: endocarditis or TB) gain weight on the regimented fare of hospital food
: gain weight? *no*
There'd be more occasion for portion control among these populations.
Can't stop the zoo visitors from feeding the animals, however.
:> What else is
:> there for a zoo animal to do but to eat?
: Sleep, mate, spectate, meditate (if they can get bored...why not?).
Sleep among zoo animals is likely disorderd as well when compared to
animals not in captivity. As for mating, that's not always an option as
it is in the wild. Since most zoo animals I visit are sleeping, I'm
guessing spectating humans gets rather boring after awhile. Meditating?
That's certainly what I would do were I in captivity. I thought only cats
were capable of meditation. ;-)
: I would have to agree that if a patient is psychologically dependent on
: food as a mean of coping to a degree where some would even consider it a
: pathological addiction, then I would expect such a person to have
: trouble even if they got a food scale. But the only way to recognize
: this is by quantifying the amount of food they are eating.
Wow! We're agreeing again. If you keep this up, we won't have any more
to talk about. :-)
: The instinct to overeat to obesity is a means of self-preservation because
: historically it did allow self-preservation.
If obesity were a natural self-preservation mechanism, than we'd all be
obese. Chronic obesity is counter to self-preservation since long-term
obesity taxes the heart and other organs and may lead to early death.
Noreen
Barbara
> 100% have had weight loss upon decreasing their intake to 2 lbs per day. My
> definition of long-term success is maintenance of near ideal body weight until
> the time of death...
So if someone loses a significant amount of weight but remains
overweight/obese - say, reduces BMI by 10 points from 45 to 35 - you
don't regard that as successful, even if they keep the weight off
permanently?
A number of eminent people in the field of weight control are making
different pronouncements: that obese people should aim to lose 10% of
their starting weight, then maintain their reduced weight for a number
of months. Further weight loss attempts can be made later, if the
patient is motivated to do so.
The rationale for this is two-fold:
1) There are clinically significant improvements in glycemia, BP,
lipids etc from such a weight loss;
2) The high rate of recidivism, and the demoralising effect of weight
regain when people attempt to reach "normal" weight. This is even more
true the higher the starting weight.
How do you view these recommmendations?
Barbara
bettina
> > probably has to do with some of the immigrants who came to America
during
> > great times of famine in their own country; some of it may have to do
with
> > the hard times people endured during the Great Depression: where
scarcity
> > mentality can set up a chronic mindset to binge -- thus passing these
> > maladaptive habits down through the generations.
>
> It's hard to imagine passing down these maladaptive habits through the
generations
> when other maladaptive habits (excessive frugality or compulsively saving
money for
> example) do not appear to be passed down. Also, Europeans have had more
hardship in
> that the World Wars were fought on their soil so they should have more of
a chronic
> mindset to binge than Americans.
went through the depression, and ALWAYS after she was married and had
essentially enough food available to her would "hoard" food. My mother
"learned" this and has a pantry full of things and my brother and I both
have large amounts of stored food. Had the Y2K problem actually occured as
the doomsayers predicted, my mom, brother and I would have been fine, adn
our families would have had plenty for the following at LEAST two-three
months!
I am TRYING to only buy meat, dairy and vegies now and let my family use up
the huge store of pasta and such that is resting on my "pantry" shelves.
I can see where if you or your parents' went through a hard time involving
food, you would want to store up and havfe it (parents teach their children
these things without even trying), and this can flow over from the cupboard
to storing on your body...related would be the "value" meal and eating it
all. As for saving money, some cultures DO save money by "investing it".
The Greeks all buy gold jewelry (during the war a wedding band was the
lowest price you could pay for a loaf of read). The Jewish culture is known
for it's ability to be frugal. I think the American ideal is that if you
have money you invest in things that you want (ie: you get a $60 bonus and
you have been wanting that second vcr so you gt it instead of putting the
money into a savings...after all you can use it now, the savings will only
draw 3% interest if you're lucky.) and the instant gratification mentality
that grew larger in the 80's "me" era.
There's also the reality that without food you can die, without money you're
just poor. yes, there are extenuating things like illness and not being
able to buy food, but America is big on supporting the needy and in the
right area, you can have no money and still eat at least twice a day and
have a place to sleep indoors.
My husband and friends make fun of my "food storage", except for the Mormon
ones where that is highly encouraged. I guess it is funny, but I'm trying
to change that. too bad it's over 90% non Atkins stuff, or I"d help use it
us! But when my friends need food or are out of money to hit the grocery, I
dont' hear them complaining when I give them food to get them through!
just trying to put the ideas to a real situation.
Noreen Cooper
In sci.med.cardiology Barbara <bgreenw...@yahoo.com> wrote: :>
>>However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have
>>an eating disorder.
: I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
: disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
: from that?
Binge eating disorder is a relatively new field of study. Recently,
researchers have divided the group into two classes: more severe and mild.
Supposedly, BED affects 2% of the general population and 8% of people who
are obese.
Here are some URLS on BED:
http://www.edreferral.com/compulsive_overeating.htm
http://growthcentral.com/BingeEatingDisorderFAQ.htm
http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/binge.html
---
Noreen
Chris Malcolm
>Noreen Cooper wrote:
>> In sci.med.cardiology Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> : We all have an instinctual tendency to overeat especially when food is
>> : abundant and heaped before us.
>>
>> Certainly affluent societies where food is more plentiful can account in
>> part for the rise in obesity.
>European societies are as affluent as Americam society and yet the rates of severe
>obesity is noticeably higher here in the U.S.
It's more than "noticeably higher". Many Europeans on visiting the US
for the first time are quite frightened by it. In any crowded street
or store you can see folk so fat that in many parts of Europe you'd
have to look for months to find one to match.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085
School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics
Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
Chris Malcolm
>Noreen Cooper wrote:
>> Some of it
>> probably has to do with some of the immigrants who came to America during
>> great times of famine in their own country; some of it may have to do with
>> the hard times people endured during the Great Depression: where scarcity
>> mentality can set up a chronic mindset to binge -- thus passing these
>> maladaptive habits down through the generations.
>It's hard to imagine passing down these maladaptive habits through the generations
>when other maladaptive habits (excessive frugality or compulsively saving money for
>example) do not appear to be passed down. Also, Europeans have had more hardship in
>that the World Wars were fought on their soil so they should have more of a chronic
>mindset to binge than Americans.
As a Briton who grew up during the lean aftermath of World War II, in
the days of food rationing, what I, and most of those I know, learned
then was habits of frugality. We don't waste food. We do finish what's
on our plates. And we certainly *don't* overeat, because that is a
certain way to exhaust your food stocks too early. If you need to make
your food last, the key is to eat it slowly. Nobody who has been
through long periods of food scarcity learns binging, they learn
economy and frugality and portion control. They learn not to ask for
second helpings because that's tomorrow's dinner. In short, they learn
*not* to be greedy.
The same is true of primitive tribes who go through periods of food
scarcity. Wherever America's overeating comes from, it doesn't come
from something they learnt during periods of food scarcity.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<3CD1A96F...@heartmdphd.com>...
>
> > 100% have had weight loss upon decreasing their intake to 2 lbs per day. My
> > definition of long-term success is maintenance of near ideal body weight until
> > the time of death...
>
> So if someone loses a significant amount of weight but remains
> overweight/obese - say, reduces BMI by 10 points from 45 to 35 - you
> don't regard that as successful, even if they keep the weight off
> permanently?
On paper, no. however, I can imagine instances where a person may have a BMI of 35 and a percentage body fat less
than 10%... In such instances, I would still deem the diet successful.
>
>
> A number of eminent people in the field of weight control are making
> different pronouncements: that obese people should aim to lose 10% of
> their starting weight, then maintain their reduced weight for a number
> of months. Further weight loss attempts can be made later, if the
> patient is motivated to do so.
>
> The rationale for this is two-fold:
>
> 1) There are clinically significant improvements in glycemia, BP,
> lipids etc from such a weight loss;
So why stop after just 10% ?
>
>
> 2) The high rate of recidivism, and the demoralising effect of weight
> regain when people attempt to reach "normal" weight. This is even more
> true the higher the starting weight.
2) has not been a problem with the 2 lb diet.
>
>
> How do you view these recommmendations?
>
See above.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> writes:
>
> >Noreen Cooper wrote:
>
> >> In sci.med.cardiology Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> : We all have an instinctual tendency to overeat especially when food is
> >> : abundant and heaped before us.
> >>
> >> Certainly affluent societies where food is more plentiful can account in
> >> part for the rise in obesity.
>
> >European societies are as affluent as Americam society and yet the rates of severe
> >obesity is noticeably higher here in the U.S.
>
> It's more than "noticeably higher". Many Europeans on visiting the US
> for the first time are quite frightened by it. In any crowded street
> or store you can see folk so fat that in many parts of Europe you'd
> have to look for months to find one to match.
>
I know...
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Do you believe that you would eat less if food were not as plentiful in your
home ?
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Interesting ...
> and don't you think the American 'fast food' regime has a lot to do
> with it ? Easy,fast,cheap and fatty .. The kids get so used to it that
> 'real' food ie ..veggies etc don't have the same taste.
I would say the American food culture is responsible and this includes the
pricier restaurants. The served portions are huge. Food served fast,
cheap, and fatty does not cause obesity... the large quantity does.
>
> I very easily lost 30 lbs 5 years ago.. portion control, NO fried food
> and very limited sweets.. and NOT eating unless I was really hungry ! No
> 'snacks' .. and have kept the weight off :) ..luckily it became a life
> style change (habit) !
>
You basically are on the 2 lb diet equivalent... it would be interesting to
find out how many pounds of food per day you are eating.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Chris Malcolm
>In sci.med.cardiology Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>: It's hard to imagine passing down these maladaptive habits through the
>: generations when other maladaptive habits (excessive frugality or
>: compulsively saving money for : example) do not appear to be passed down.
>Haven't you heard of the clean-your-plate club? This habit is the genesis
>of putting people out of touch with their natural satiation rhythms.
*Only* if you put too much on your plate to start with. During wartime
food rationing you were taught to clean your plate because even though
it wasn't appetising, and it wasn't much, it was all you were going to
get, and if you were fussy you ended up hungry and tired. The obverse
of the frugal "clean your plate" habit is careful portion control to
make the food stocks last.
>If obesity were a natural self-preservation mechanism, than we'd all be
>obese. Chronic obesity is counter to self-preservation since long-term
>obesity taxes the heart and other organs and may lead to early death.
The human population is not uniform. Its variety is intended to
contain folk who can survive heat, cold, war, famine, disease,
drought, etc., but they're not all the same people. Instinctive
self-preservation can lead some folk to overeat, and others to stay
skinny.
Obesity is *very* valuable in cold water. In the cold North Sea the
average fisherman dies of exposure after an hour. But every so often
we hear of a miraculous escape where a seaman is picked up after 24
hours in the North Sea, and he is still alive. These survivors are
*always* obese, as in fact (in human terms) all the sea mammals
are. It could be an adaptation inherited from seafaring folk.
However, since the US seems quite able to export obesity to other
previously thinner nations by persuading them to adopt US eating
habits, I don't think we need to look too far beyond the obvious
reasons.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> If obesity were a natural self-preservation mechanism, than we'd all be
> obese. Chronic obesity is counter to self-preservation since long-term
> obesity taxes the heart and other organs and may lead to early death.
Not early enough the prevent passing on those traits that lead to this instinct.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Organization:
>
> In sci.med.cardiology Barbara <bgreenw...@yahoo.com> wrote: :>
>
> >>However, the vast majority of folks wrestling with obesity do *not* have
> >>an eating disorder.
>
> : I've seen estimates that 20-30% of obese people have binge eating
> : disorder. Does your experience of your patients differ significantly
> : from that?
>
> Binge eating disorder is a relatively new field of study. Recently,
> researchers have divided the group into two classes: more severe and mild.
> Supposedly, BED affects 2% of the general population and 8% of people who
> are obese.
>
That is consistent with what I have observed in my clinic population. (Yes, I
find myself agreeing with you again :-)
Andrew
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Only true from those not-so-primitive tribes that have other ways of storing food besides
eating it.
> Wherever America's overeating comes from, it doesn't come
> from something they learnt during periods of food scarcity.
>
I would have to agree.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Agree.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Noreen Cooper
: That is consistent with what I have observed in my clinic population.
: (Yes, I find myself agreeing with you again :-)
Wonderful! Where we still may disagree is what constitutes a full-blown
eating disorder versus a disordered relationship with food which yields
the same result. The treatment protocols for full blown eating disorders
also work for the lesser cases where people are falling into a larger
percentage of the obese population, the numbers Barbara quoted previously.
Understanding the psychological implications which underly obesity is
something doctors should consider when advising their obese patients,
especially when long-term non-compliance is noted.
Noreen
Michael Roose
|> through advertising, where sophisticated psychological song-and-dance
|> routines create false needs for commodities and junk food.
Chung:
|*exactly*
|
|When you are offered the *value* of "supersizing" and you buy into the idea... you
|are psychologically committed to eating all of it. If you do not eat all of it, you
|will have wasted the *value* that you bought !
There is a business equation that follows this quite nicely. The
gross revenue from serving a larger amount is not negated by
additional labor. It takes no more manpower or man-time to prepare
and serve a Biggie Coke, fries or whatever and the additional material
is negligible as well.
So, they still make a huge gross profit off a 49 cent upgrade.
|> Some of it
|> probably has to do with some of the immigrants who came to America during
|> great times of famine in their own country; some of it may have to do with
|> the hard times people endured during the Great Depression: where scarcity
|> mentality can set up a chronic mindset to binge -- thus passing these
|> maladaptive habits down through the generations.
|You make the distinction between natural versus "artificial" hunger. I would have
|to take the position there is no such distinction.
|
|> Many compulsive overeaters have no idea what it feels like to
|> be hungry, never allowing themselves to go long enough without food to
|> experience a true hunger pang.
Chung:
|Is there really a difference between feeling hungry when you walk by something that
|smells good when you have recently eaten versus when you have not eaten all day
|aside from the relative intensity of hunger?
The relative feeling in the stomach. Full or empty feelings are
different.
Michael Roose
wrote:
|When the
|stomach is shrunk to its natural size, only a fistful of food is needed to
|fill it.
Which begs the question, does the stomach actually shrink and expand?
At empty, is it larger in an obese person than in a skinny one
(relative to their volumetric starting points)? Does an obese
person's stomach have a greater elasticity and a skinny one's less?
Are there significant differences in stomach volumes across the human
spectrum? Does the stomach actually change in its volumetric size or
is does it change in its expandability?
starb...@inthesky.com
cards' scenario for meat etc.. also, immediately went to Skim Milk ..and if I
really got the 'snack' feeling at nite..(and I wasn't hungry) I would just have
a bowl of raisin bran with skim milk ..that did the trick .
nita in Houston
Michael Roose
wrote:
|So if someone loses a significant amount of weight but remains
|overweight/obese - say, reduces BMI by 10 points from 45 to 35 - you
|don't regard that as successful, even if they keep the weight off
|permanently?
Chung can answer for himself but I don't consider the BMI worthy in
terms of rating success.
Michael Roose
Malcolm) wrote:
|As a Briton... we don't waste food. We do finish what's
|on our plates. And we certainly *don't* overeat, because that is a
|certain way to exhaust your food stocks too early. If you need to make
|your food last, the key is to eat it slowly.
Do you find that the British have a more social setting to eating than
Americans. More conversation, more "formal" sit downs, etc.?
Michael Roose
Malcolm) wrote:
|Obesity is *very* valuable in cold water.
Especially of you want a fat, tasty salmon.
Michael Roose
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|..... I can imagine instances where a person may have a BMI of 35 and a percentage body fat less
|than 10%... In such instances, I would still deem the diet successful.
The BMI is skewed against muscular development.
Michael Roose
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|I would say the American food culture is responsible and this includes the
|pricier restaurants. The served portions are huge. Food served fast,
|cheap, and fatty does not cause obesity... the large quantity does.
Correction. I would say the American food culture is responsible for
propagating a way to eat and we are responsible for overeating. I
don't care too much for the "victim" mentality.
Charles Gill
"Noreen Cooper" <nco...@wahoo.sjsu.edu> wrote in message
news:aauj6e$32kcq$1...@hades.csu.net...
thread from the beginning and nowhere (I think) has any one stated what to
me is the obvious. People who overeat do so because its actually very
enjoyable - it tastes nice and they like it. It has nothing (or very
little) to do with real hunger - it's just an enjoyable experience. Whilst
it is enjoyable - and whilst these people continue to " give in" to their
enjoyment, the obesity problem will go on. As with so many things that are
bad for us it boils down to a simple case of saying NO. Let's stop
providing complicated psychological excuses why it's OK for people to
binge-eat and start concentrating on the simple lack of willpower that is
the root of the problem. The bottom line is if you want to get lighter and
feel better you have to make a few sacrifices. Trying to find excuses in
the complexities of desire may make you feel better about being fat - but
you'll still be fat.
Chas
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
When folks are oblivious to the amount the eat, no amount of will power is going
to help them regulate the amount they eat. Will power will help these folks
fast but not moderate their intake.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Noreen Cooper
: OK - this is the point where I just have to interject. I have followed this
: thread from the beginning and nowhere (I think) has any one stated what to
: me is the obvious. People who overeat do so because its actually very
: enjoyable - it tastes nice and they like it. It has nothing (or very
: little) to do with real hunger - it's just an enjoyable experience.
Much to the contrary, the act of eating for the obese can be quite
painful. Read the literature if you've never wrestled with this issue
yourself.
Noreen
Michael Roose
<Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
| People who overeat do so because its actually very
|enjoyable - it tastes nice and they like it. It has nothing (or very
|little) to do with real hunger - it's just an enjoyable experience.
Although I have talked to several obese people and seen documentaries
where they deny this. Then they could be lying.
Barbara
> People who overeat do so because its actually very
> enjoyable - it tastes nice and they like it. It has nothing (or very
> little) to do with real hunger - it's just an enjoyable experience.
That's one reason for doing it, yes.
> As with so many things that are
> bad for us it boils down to a simple case of saying NO. Let's stop
> providing complicated psychological excuses why it's OK for people to
> binge-eat and start concentrating on the simple lack of willpower that is
> the root of the problem.
These statements demonstrate that you have absolutely no understanding
of the phenoment of compulsive binge eating. It's not about saying
"It's OK to binge eat - you carry on!" It's about saying "You're not a
bad person because you binge, but doing so is harming you, we need to
find a way to help you stop".
Binge-eaters who stop lose weight. They don't generally end up thin,
because they also tend to indulge in "simple overeating" of the type
you describe above. And that *is* more susceptible to the discipline,
just say No approach. But in order to be able to say no to simple
overeating, people need first to deal with the compulsivity.
> The bottom line is if you want to get lighter and
> feel better you have to make a few sacrifices. Trying to find excuses in
> the complexities of desire may make you feel better about being fat - but
> you'll still be fat.
In your world, I guess everyone gives up smoking on their first
attempt, and no-one drinks too much either.
Barbara
Lynne
wrote:
>
>In your world, I guess everyone gives up smoking on their first
>attempt, and no-one drinks too much either.
>
>Barbara
You'll never convince anyone who hasn't experienced compulsive
over-eating that such a thing exists. My compulsive behaviours go back
to my 4th year. In order to keep myself under control, I have a
constant running dialogue going in my head. If I let up for a moment -
the desire to binge comes right back. I'm beginning to feel that I
might be in control of my own boat now - but it's a struggle to hang
on to the tiller some days.
Lynne
Ed Chait
"Lynne" <swimq...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cd3bf44...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Ah, but you see, trying to *control* is really the crux of the problem.
Success in obsessive-compulsive behaviors comes through surrender and
acceptance, not control and will-power. As soon as you stop struggling, you
start winning.
The paradoxical nature of the solution is what prevents so many from finding
it.
Ed Chait
Michael Roose
wrote:
|You'll never convince anyone who hasn't experienced compulsive
|over-eating that such a thing exists.
Not true. I have never compulsively binged or over-eaten yet I have
no problem believing the research and the fact of it.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Would have to agree with Mike...
You don't have to be a compulsive over-eater to recognize that such an
entity exists.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Charles Gill
I am "clinically" obese. Eating, for me has NEVER been painful. I do know
(because I've struggled with a weight problem for nearly all of my 56 years)
that if I really set my mind to it I can lose weight. However, after 6
months or so I really miss all the good tasty stuff and I eventually slip
back into my old eating habits and the weight goes back on. It seems to me
that it boils down to an acceptance of the fact that if I want to stay in
control of my weight then I'm gonna have to deny myself the tasty stuff for
the rest of my life. I believe that the vast majority of people with a
weight problem are like me. I do accept that there may be a minority with
more complex issues that contribute.
Chas
Charles Gill
"Barbara" <bgreenw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2d735f.02050...@posting.google.com...
Wrong. I am now 56 and have smoked since I was 13 (a fact of which I am not
proud). I eventually stopped (hopefully for good) 15 months ago after many,
many failed attempts in the past and the onset of permanent atrial
fibrillation. The key to my success this time lies in the eventual
realization that, no matter how much smoking had become part of my life, no
matter how much I enjoyed it and no matter how much "support" it gave me in
all sorts of situations I actually feel better for not doing it and I don't
want to feel ever again as lousy as I did when I smoked. Too late for the
old afib, however - as I remind myself every day how bloody stupid I was
ever to have started. I still have to say no to the craving every day, but
I still won't give in to it - ever again. I've just learned to accept that
a lump of my life has been taken away and it's never going to come back.
Things are different now.
I don't know whether it's the same with eating. I DO know that I am
clinically obese and that, from time to time, I get so tired (in every way)
of it that I reduce my intake, deny myself the tasty stuff - and I lose
weight. I've been doing this all of my adult life and it's a permanent
feature just to keep some form of control (ie not to get any bigger). I
also know that I can (with willpower alone) lose 20 or 30 pounds but,
eventually, I get fed up with denying myself the tasty stuff and slip back
into my bad eating habits. I haven't figured out yet how to apply the
lessons I've learned from giving up smoking to controlling my diet, but I DO
know that the bottom line is I look at the food, I KNOW it isn't good for
me, but I still eat it, because I like it. The only way I know of
overcoming this is by saying NO to myself.
I feel truly sorry for those people who have complex reasons for being obese
and I guess it was wrong of me to generalise, but I still reckon the vast
majority of overweight people fall into my simple category of eating because
it's available and I like it. What I fear, however, is that the
complexities that may be found in the minority can be picked up in fora like
this by the non-complex majority and used as an excuse not to try too hard.
In my experience trying hard is the only way to control it.
Chas.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Noreen Cooper" <nco...@wahoo.sjsu.edu> wrote in message
> news:aavcee$32ll8$1...@hades.csu.net...
> > In sci.med.cardiology Charles Gill <Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > : OK - this is the point where I just have to interject. I have followed
> this
> > : thread from the beginning and nowhere (I think) has any one stated what
> to
> > : me is the obvious. People who overeat do so because its actually very
> > : enjoyable - it tastes nice and they like it. It has nothing (or very
> > : little) to do with real hunger - it's just an enjoyable experience.
> >
> > Much to the contrary, the act of eating for the obese can be quite
> > painful. Read the literature if you've never wrestled with this issue
> > yourself.
> >
> > Noreen
>
> I am "clinically" obese. Eating, for me has NEVER been painful. I do know
> (because I've struggled with a weight problem for nearly all of my 56 years)
> that if I really set my mind to it I can lose weight. However, after 6
> months or so I really miss all the good tasty stuff and I eventually slip
> back into my old eating habits and the weight goes back on.
Apparently you feel (as do many) that in order to lose weight, you have to
change the kind of foods you eat. Would this statement be true for you ?
> It seems to me
> that it boils down to an acceptance of the fact that if I want to stay in
> control of my weight then I'm gonna have to deny myself the tasty stuff for
> the rest of my life.
Would you be able to handle eating *less* of the tasty stuff for the rest of our
life ?
In other words, by eating *less* but keeping the same kinds of food, there would
be nothing to miss.
> I believe that the vast majority of people with a
> weight problem are like me. I do accept that there may be a minority with
> more complex issues that contribute.
>
What you believe and what I have seen are in concordance.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
You are to commended for stopping smoking. Tobacco dependency is a powerful
addiction. As you have found out, it typically takes multiple attempts to be
successful at smoking cessation.
I would be curious to know how many pounds of food you are eating every day
(including the tasty stuff :-).
Not that I want to blame anyone for the obesity problem, however, the
advancement of the culinary arts (making more kinds of tasty stuff... ala Emeril
Lagasse) certainly does not help.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Noreen Cooper
: Would you be able to handle eating *less* of the tasty stuff for the
: rest of our life ?
: In other words, by eating *less* but keeping the same kinds of food,
: there would be nothing to miss.
This diet plan is quite in accordance with the philosophy of "Thin
Within" where people are encouraged to reconnect with their physiologic
hunger (as opposed to psychological hunger) -- waiting to experience
true hunger first and then eating only small portions of food to satisfy
the physiolgic hunger. Something about the deprivation of dieting can set
off even people who do not struggle with compulsive overeating.
Noreen
Charles Gill
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:3CD48122...@heartmdphd.com...
> Charles Gill wrote:
>
> > "Noreen Cooper" <nco...@wahoo.sjsu.edu> wrote in message
> > news:aavcee$32ll8$1...@hades.csu.net...
> > > In sci.med.cardiology Charles Gill <Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > months or so I really miss all the good tasty stuff and I eventually
slip
> > back into my old eating habits and the weight goes back on.
>
> Apparently you feel (as do many) that in order to lose weight, you have to
> change the kind of foods you eat. Would this statement be true for you ?
Yes
>
> > It seems to me
> > that it boils down to an acceptance of the fact that if I want to stay
in
> > control of my weight then I'm gonna have to deny myself the tasty stuff
for
> > the rest of my life.
>
> Would you be able to handle eating *less* of the tasty stuff for the rest
of our
> life ?
>
> In other words, by eating *less* but keeping the same kinds of food, there
would
> be nothing to miss.
Sounds good in theory - in practice if food intake is measured in calorific
value a little of the good stuff is a heck of a lot of calories and uses up
any daily allowance pretty quickly. I am therefore left with a choice
between being hungry or not. On balance I'd rather be less hungry and deny
myself the good stuff.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Sounds good in theory - in practice if food intake is measured in calorific
> value a little of the good stuff is a heck of a lot of calories and uses up
> any daily allowance pretty quickly.
Not really. The difference in caloric density from the "tasty" stuff to the
"healthy" stuff is marginal.
> I am therefore left with a choice
> between being hungry or not.
There are those in this thread who would assert that the hunger you feel in this
setting of moderating your food intake is not real and should even be
extinguishable. My position is that feeling hungry is not a bad thing.
> On balance I'd rather be less hungry and deny
> myself the good stuff.
But you stated earlier that you would eventually miss the "tasty" stuff and then
regress back to your previous pattern of eating.
Michael Roose
<Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
| I do know
|(because I've struggled with a weight problem for nearly all of my 56 years)
|that if I really set my mind to it I can lose weight. However, after 6
|months or so I really miss all the good tasty stuff and I eventually slip
|back into my old eating habits and the weight goes back on. It seems to me
|that it boils down to an acceptance of the fact that if I want to stay in
|control of my weight then I'm gonna have to deny myself the tasty stuff for
|the rest of my life.
Is it the "tasty stuff" or the amount of total foods? What are the
tasty things?
Michael Roose
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|You are to commended for stopping smoking. Tobacco dependency is a powerful
|addiction. As you have found out, it typically takes multiple attempts to be
|successful at smoking cessation.
I have an unfortunate relative who spent the majority of her life as
an heroin addict. She is now clean for the first time in 45 years.
when I talked to her recently she commented that the hardest thing she
has ever had to do was to kick her tobacco addiction. Which she
hasn't.
Michael Roose
wrote:
|This diet plan is quite in accordance with the philosophy of "Thin
|Within" where people are encouraged to reconnect with their physiologic
|hunger (as opposed to psychological hunger) -- waiting to experience
|true hunger first and then eating only small portions of food to satisfy
|the physiolgic hunger.
Being a Two Pound Diet "client", I can tell you that, ime, this is not
the case. I don't eat only when I am hungry since many times I cannot
plan on a meal or a snack being available when hunger hits. I eat
when I can, iow.
Second, when I am hungry, when I can get to appropriate food, I
sometimes deny myself to condition for the times that I cannot get to
food. Simple exercise of discipline.
| Something about the deprivation of dieting can set
|off even people who do not struggle with compulsive overeating.
I agree but I want to comment on the deprivation issue. I started
weighing my food several weeks ago and found I was eating 4-5 pounds
max in a day. I started cutting back slowly and now have been at two
pounds or less every day for a couple of weeks. I have no feeling of
deprivation even though my fat content is less than 20% (less than 5%
sat fat, if that).
What I have found is that I am, at least at this point, well satiated
with this overall reduction in food intake. Some days I even have to
"cram" a little to make two pounds.
Michael Roose
<Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
|Sounds good in theory - in practice if food intake is measured in calorific
|value a little of the good stuff is a heck of a lot of calories and uses up
|any daily allowance pretty quickly. I am therefore left with a choice
|between being hungry or not. On balance I'd rather be less hungry and deny
|myself the good stuff.
Try denying yourself anything over 5, then 4, then 3, then 2 pounds
and, for the meanwhile, forget about _what_ you eat.
Michael Roose
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|There are those in this thread who would assert that the hunger you feel in this
|setting of moderating your food intake is not real and should even be
|extinguishable. My position is that feeling hungry is not a bad thing.
I believe it is a good thing. It tells me when I need to eat and is
the only feedback I look for.
I also believe we, Americans, have some unholy fear of this slight
discomfort as if we are going to be "ulcerated" or "acidified" or
badly affected by the feeling of emptiness. Heck, we call it the
"pains and pangs of hunger" like it is to be avoided like the plague.
Bottom line - if you don't feel hungry once in a while, perhaps every
day to some degree, you're probably overeating. It's time we
reexamine, critically reexamine, our entire attitude and views toward
eating, overeating and hunger.
Charles Gill
> Charles Gill wrote:
>
> > "Barbara" <bgreenw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:2c2d735f.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Charles Gill" <Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:<aavai5$f73$1...@knossos.btinternet.com>...
> I would be curious to know how many pounds of food you are eating every
day
> (including the tasty stuff :-).
>
> Not that I want to blame anyone for the obesity problem, however, the
> advancement of the culinary arts (making more kinds of tasty stuff... ala
Emeril
> Lagasse) certainly does not help.
>
> --
> Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Atlanta Cardiologist
> http://www.heartmdphd.com
>
>
that allows me to monitor calorific and other inputs - I won't bore you with
the details - but it enables me to say with some accuracy exactly what I do
consume in terms of fats, protein, carbohydrate and fibre - all done by
weighing everything that goes in! I aim for (but rarely achieve) 1500
calories/day - usually in turns out to be around 2200, except on special
occasions and vacations, when it all gets shot to pieces. I also aim to get
the balance right in terms of calorific equivalents of
fats/protein/carbohydrate - and generally do. The weight of solid food and
milk in this diet is about 1300g - about 3 pounds, I think. In addition
(and included in the calories) are an average 3 pints of beer a day (oops!).
I think you include this in the total weight(?). This adds about 3 pounds
more. So I suppose that I'm taking in 6 pounds a day. On this "diet" I
maintain my current weight of 240 pounds (BMI=31). When I start feel
guilty/stupid/bad about not losing weight I reduce the beer by about 75
percent and the weight comes off at about 1-2 pounds/week. On this basis I
would say that I would DEFINITELY lose weight very quickly on a total of 2
ponds/day - in fact the regime would probably be too vigorous and
unsustainable in the medium term. Hope you find this useful
Regards
Chas
Noreen Cooper
: Bottom line - if you don't feel hungry once in a while, perhaps every
: day to some degree, you're probably overeating. It's time we
: reexamine, critically reexamine, our entire attitude and views toward
: eating, overeating and hunger.
I agree. And so do writers in the field of overcoming compulsive behavior
around food such as Judy Wardell and Geneen Roth.
I would argue, however, that compulsive overeating is a spectrum
phenomenon. On one side of the scale, you have the full-blown eating
disorder diagnosis but on the other side are the average Jane's or Joe's
who are 40 or more pounds overweight, who are eating larger portions than
are needed, eat frequently out of psychological hunger, and go years
without ever experiencing a real hunger pang. All leading to the same
result...an overload on the heart and other organs to care for a larger
frame.
Noreen
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
2.9 lbs
> In addition
> (and included in the calories) are an average 3 pints of beer a day (oops!).
> I think you include this in the total weight(?).
yes
> This adds about 3 pounds
> more. So I suppose that I'm taking in 6 pounds a day. On this "diet" I
> maintain my current weight of 240 pounds (BMI=31).
too much
> When I start feel
> guilty/stupid/bad about not losing weight I reduce the beer by about 75
> percent and the weight comes off at about 1-2 pounds/week.
when you are consuming about 4 pounds of food per day
> On this basis I
> would say that I would DEFINITELY lose weight very quickly on a total of 2
> ponds/day - in fact the regime would probably be too vigorous and
> unsustainable in the medium term.
Why do you say it is unsustainable ? What would you miss ?
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
If we don't help the average Jane's and Joe's who number in the millions, we will
be nowhere near able to help the outliers.
Michael Roose
So have I. But mine is not nearly as complete.
Please email me yours as an attachment and I will send you mine.
Michael Roose
wrote:
|I would argue, however, that compulsive overeating is a spectrum
|phenomenon. On one side of the scale, you have the full-blown eating
|disorder diagnosis but on the other side are the average Jane's or Joe's
|who are 40 or more pounds overweight, who are eating larger portions than
|are needed, eat frequently out of psychological hunger, and go years
|without ever experiencing a real hunger pang. All leading to the same
|result...an overload on the heart and other organs to care for a larger
|frame.
Point well made.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
This almost sounds like the obscene "show me yours, and I will show you mine" :-)
To all contributors to this thread:
You are to be commended for the quality of the posts. I will ty to incorporate
some of them on my web site.
Michael Roose
|> |Chas
Roose wrote:
|> So have I. But mine is not nearly as complete.
|>
|> Please email me yours as an attachment and I will send you mine.
On Sun, 05 May 2002 21:41:44 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|This almost sounds like the obscene "show me yours, and I will show you mine" :-)
You wish you had anything to show, Chung Troll.
|To all contributors to this thread:
|
| You are to be commended for the quality of the posts. I will ty to incorporate
|some of them on my web site.
Whoever started this whole discussion should be awarded a medal.
Noreen Cooper
: If we don't help the average Jane's and Joe's who number in the
: millions, we will be nowhere near able to help the outliers.
However, the research which has assisted the outliers in developing a
healthier relationship with food can also be modified to assist the
average Jane's and Joe's. To start with, developing a program in cardiac
rehab which has both a behavioral, cognitive, and transpersonal
therapeutic approach to successful and long-term weight loss.
Noreen
Charles Gill
meal (incidentally these are 3 meals/day - no snacks except the occasional
banana when I'm REALLY hungry) and the calorific intake is breakfast
400-ish, lunch 650-ish and dinner 350-ish. I think (but confess I haven't
tried it) that to reduce to 2 pounds per day would mean I would feel as if I
hadn't eaten enough to satisfy my hunger and would soon be foraging for
more.
Chas
Charles Gill
mine again!!!! :-))))
Barbara
> > In your world, I guess everyone gives up smoking on their first
> > attempt, and no-one drinks too much either.
> >
> > Barbara
>
> Wrong. I am now 56 and have smoked since I was 13 (a fact of which I am not
> proud). I eventually stopped (hopefully for good) 15 months ago after many,
> many failed attempts in the past and the onset of permanent atrial
> fibrillation. The key to my success this time lies in the eventual
> realization that, no matter how much smoking had become part of my life, no
> matter how much I enjoyed it and no matter how much "support" it gave me in
> all sorts of situations I actually feel better for not doing it and I don't
> want to feel ever again as lousy as I did when I smoked.
OK, so you understand then that knowing smoking is harmful was not
enough to enable you to stop..... to "say no" to the urge. But there
are people out there who stop smoking on their first attempt. Do you
think it's reasonable to tailor advice on smoking cessation to their
experience, and tell everyone "Just say No"?
I'd argue it's very similar with overeating. Some people can just stop
when they decide to. Others can't - they need help, support,
structure.... sometimes they need to move towards it in small steps.
People who use nicotine replacement therapy are twice as likely to
succeed as those who don't. And there are things which make people
more likely to stop overeating - things like, recognising the social
and environmental cues to overeating, managing their environment to
minimise them, stress management and problem solving skills and so on.
For some people - a minority - the overeating is at such levels and
intensity that it becomes a self-perpetuating nightmare. Telling them
to "just stop" is pretty useless. A few will manage it. Most won't -
they'll just feel worse about themselves because they didn't follow
the advice. And they'll binge more, and they'll stay fat.
> I haven't figured out yet how to apply the
> lessons I've learned from giving up smoking to controlling my diet, but I DO
> know that the bottom line is I look at the food, I KNOW it isn't good for
> me, but I still eat it, because I like it. The only way I know of
> overcoming this is by saying NO to myself.
Some people need extra help to get to the stage where they are *able*
to say NO to themselves.
> I feel truly sorry for those people who have complex reasons for being obese
> and I guess it was wrong of me to generalise, but I still reckon the vast
> majority of overweight people fall into my simple category of eating because
> it's available and I like it. What I fear, however, is that the
> complexities that may be found in the minority can be picked up in fora like
> this by the non-complex majority and used as an excuse not to try too hard.
> In my experience trying hard is the only way to control it.
If people are really fed up with being overweight, and they *can* stop
overeating by just saying no, then eventually they will - just as you
eventually found a way to stop smoking, despite failing on previous
attempts.
How much better it would be if those who have tried and failed to
"just say NO" to overeating could find the techniques and support they
need sooner, rather than repeating the "just say NO" failure many
times.
Barbara
Michael Roose
<Gill....@btinternet.com> wrote:
|On my current regime I always feel hungry for at least one hour before each
|meal (incidentally these are 3 meals/day - no snacks except the occasional
|banana when I'm REALLY hungry) and the calorific intake is breakfast
|400-ish, lunch 650-ish and dinner 350-ish. I think (but confess I haven't
|tried it) that to reduce to 2 pounds per day would mean I would feel as if I
|hadn't eaten enough to satisfy my hunger and would soon be foraging for
|more
On my Two Pound limit, I am eating between 2,000 and 2,200 calories
depending, of course, on the food. Caloric intake is limited to two
end points; 4,000 if all you ate is fat and 1,600 if you ate a zero
fat diet (assuming you eat the entire two pounds). Since my eating
plan has a low fat approach (to keep away from sat fats), I fall in
the 2,000 plus range for the most part.
In comparison with yours (1,400 +/-), I would think satiation, if
volume or caloric input is the criteria, would not be a problem.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<3CCC25E9...@heartmdphd.com>...
>
> > > It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
> > > calorie density.
> >
> > Why? Last I checked, humans don't sense the caloric density of what they eat.
>
> Because your plan would discourage people from eating a lot of
> *anything*.
Ever weigh out two pounds of broccoli? it's a lot.
> But a pound of broccoli, should you be able to stomach it,
> would pack about 50 calories.
That's exactly the point... the average person won't be able to stomach a pound of broccoli... it's too much.
The caloric density might be low *but* the nutritive value is high and balances the other food that you eat with the
broccolli that have high caloric density but low nutritive value. Nonetheless, the broccoli will fill your stomach
and stave off the hunger. And, there are people out there who like broccoli and will eat it even if they are limited
to 2 lbs of food per day. Again, humans do not sense caloric density...
> I don't think many people would get fat
> on that.
>
*exactly*
>
> This is the first time I've come across your diet, and I'm fascinated
> by the contrast with the Volumetrics plan, based on energy density.
> The fundamental basis of that is that most people, left to themselves,
> eat about the same weight of food a day.... it says 2-3lb for most
> people. So it advises deliberately choosing foods with a low energy
> density, and these naturally displace foods with a higher energy
> density, hence reducing total calorie intake, since total weight of
> food stays about the same.
>
Actually, the intent of the 2 lb diet is simply to address food quantity and not food choice. The rationale is that
in order to achieve permanent weight loss, people will have to stick with this for life... they need to be allowed
the variety they may require (including comfort foods) to comply with the lifetime nature of this plan.
>
> >
> > > Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
> > > easily put me over the limit.
> >
> > I have obese patients who are vegan... I counsel them against the binging.
>
> There's a difference between being vegan (they could fill up on
> sugar/fat/flour combinations, as long as none of the ingredients had
> been near an animal), and eating large amounts of low energy-dense
> veggies, which help to satisfy hunger but provide few calories.
>
the large amounts backfire when the large amounts of low-energy-dense foods are replaced by denser foods.
>
>
> > > Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits, food
> > > choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to weigh
> > > and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
> > > maintain weight.
> > >
> >
> > I used to believe that too until I saw the 95% failure rate with my own
> > patients...
>
> Like I said, I haven't seen your diet before, so I'm curious.
>
> What proportion of your patients who start this plan stick with it?
100%
>
> How much weight do they lose, and do they keep it off?
Varies depending on starting weight.
> Are they still
> overweight at the end, or normal weight?
With enough time, all will be at their near-ideal body weight.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> |> |Over the last couple of years I have developed a little routine in Excel
> |> |that allows me to monitor calorific and other inputs ...Hope you find this useful
>
> |> |Chas
>
> Roose wrote:
>
> |> So have I. But mine is not nearly as complete.
> |>
> |> Please email me yours as an attachment and I will send you mine.
>
> On Sun, 05 May 2002 21:41:44 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>
> |This almost sounds like the obscene "show me yours, and I will show you mine" :-)
>
> You wish you had anything to show, Chung Troll.
ouch
>
>
> |To all contributors to this thread:
> |
> | You are to be commended for the quality of the posts. I will ty to incorporate
> |some of them on my web site.
>
> Whoever started this whole discussion should be awarded a medal.
:-)
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
> news:3CCC25E9...@heartmdphd.com...
> > Ron Ritzman wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:59:53 -0400, Michael Roose
> > > <somewhatus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >When you read Chung's CV (you did read the CV didn't you?..oh, you
> > > >didn't?)
> > >
> > > Oh I did. I do think his observation about the mountain climbers only
> > > eating 10 pounds a food a week and comparing it to the 10 pounds a day
> some
> > > of his obese patients ate on their "McDiet" is a good way of
> demonstrating
> > > the enormous amounts of food we eat. It reminded me of a comparison made
> > > between the American solder in Vietnam with his 100 pound back pack,
> much
> > > of it food, and his Viet Cong adversary with his little bag of rice.
> > > Probably an exaggeration.
> > >
> > > However, I think that an actual diet plan based on the weight of one's
> food
> > > is just as defeatable by the dieter as both the standard low fat
> approach
> > > and low carbing are. I can think of several ways putting a lot of
> calories
> > > into my body and yet still stay within my 2 pound allotment.
> >
> > That would be one's approach if you do not have any motivation to lose
> weight.
> > The same could be said for any diet plan currently available except
> lifetime
> > incarceration in a concentration camp.
> >
> > > Anything
> > > either very high in fat or very high in sugar with little fiber or
> protein
> > > should do the trick.
> > >
> >
> > Sure, 2 lbs of Crisco will approach 8000 cal per day. However, if you are
> > currently eating 4 lbs of Criscao per day, I would still be certain that
> you
> > will lose weight.
> >
> > >
> > > It also might discourage people from eating vegetables with a very low
> > > calorie density.
> >
> > Why? Last I checked, humans don't sense the caloric density of what they
> eat.
> >
> > > Last weeks squash, spinach, and broccoli binge would have
> > > easily put me over the limit.
> >
> > I have obese patients who are vegan... I counsel them against the
> binging.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Therefore, in the long run. I still think that proper eating habits,
> food
> > > choices, and portion control (and learning to do it without having to
> weigh
> > > and/or journal everything you stick in your mouth) are the best ways to
> > > maintain weight.
> > >
> >
> > I used to believe that too until I saw the 95% failure rate with my own
> > patients...
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> > Atlanta Cardiologist
> > http://www.heartmdphd.com
> >
> >
>
> What failure rates do you see now, with the two-pounds-a-day plan?
No reported failures to date.
0% in my clinic population.
> And how
> many patients are on this plan?
I currently follow about 1000 patients in my new private practice... About 90%
are overweight. About half of these have gotten their food scales and are
losing weight.
> Michael Roose claimed that it had a very
> high success rate, but was unable to provide specifics.
Higher than anything else currently available.
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Forget about show me yours and I'll show you mine - it would be nice to see
> mine again!!!! :-))))
LOL :-)
Noreen Cooper
: The average Jane and Joe are *not* in cardiac rehab.
I'm referring to the spectrum of obese people who unfortunately qualify
for cardiac rehab. Some of them will have full blown eating disorders,
others won't. There's a need for something beyond menu planning and
nutritional advice; such as exploring the psycho-social dynamics behind
overeating and providing ongoing support groups for lifestyle changes and
weight reduction.
But your point is well taken. If the GP's or internists were intervening
sooner, some people may avoid that fateful trip to the ER. And in the
case of others, even that won't help without cholesterol lowering
medication.
Noreen
Michael Roose
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
|> And how
|> many patients are on this plan?
|
|I currently follow about 1000 patients in my new private practice... About 90%
|are overweight. About half of these have gotten their food scales and are
|losing weight.
Do you have any idea how many who do NOT have scales are losing
weight?