Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients
listener
largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no
benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher
rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.
Several scientists questioned the concept of the study. Science "is not
designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director
of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke
University Medical Center.
The researchers who tested the power of prayer emphasized that their $2.4
million study could not address whether God exists or answers prayers
made on another's behalf. The study could look only for effects from the
specific prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
The highly anticipated study "did not move us forward or backward" in
understanding the effects of prayer, said Dr. Charles Bethea, a co-author
and cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City.
"Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect."
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, co-principal investigator
of the study, agreed. "We cannot come to a conclusion, except to say that
by this study design, with its limitations, this is what we found."
The researchers also said they didn't know why patients who knew they
were being prayed for had a higher rate of complications than patients
who only knew that such prayers were a possibility.
Maybe they became anxious by the knowledge that they'd been selected for
prayers, Bethea said: "Did the patients think, 'I am so sick that they
had to call in the prayer team?'"
The researchers said family and friends shouldn't be discouraged from
telling a patient about their plans to pray for a good recovery.
Experts called it the largest and best-designed study ever to test the
medical effects of intercessory prayers — praying on behalf of someone
else. That's different from studying the effect of a person's prayers and
spiritual practices on his or her own health; many studies of that have
shown a positive effect.
The new study followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers. It
was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into
science and religion, and one of the participating hospitals. It will
appear in Tuesday's issue of the American Heart Journal.
The research team tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray
for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing
for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a
quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients —
their identities known only by first name and first initial of the last
name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600
apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed
for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for
but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to
alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been
unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery.
Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But
among patients who did receive prayers, 59 percent of the patients who
knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52
percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Paul Kurtz, professor emeritus of philosophy at the State University of
New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a blunt response when
asked why he thought the study found no effect of prayer.
"Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."
He added that while he tries to keep an open mind, he's seen no good
evidence for such an effect in past studies. The new work, he said,
"gives added emphasis to those who have been skeptical."
Koenig, of Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the
study, said the results didn't surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real
theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god
in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be
constrained to the point that they can be predicted."
Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned
with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his
plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"
Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental
Associations, said he believes intercessory prayer can influence medical
outcomes, but that science is not equipped to explore it.
"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not.
God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said.
As for the new study, he said, "I don't think ... it's going to stop
people praying for the sick."
William Wagner
listener <list...@nospam.net> wrote:
Found this and thought it was worth pondering.
Bill who thinks of the sick (I'm one) and cooks what they liked ;))..
.........................
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
March 31, 2006
HIGH STAKES TESTING....I guess everyone's heard the news about the new
prayer study, right? A team of researchers asked several church
congregations to pray for heart surgery patients at six different
hospitals and then tracked how well they recovered from surgery compared
to patients who weren't prayed for. The result was null. Neither group
did better than the other.
But I've got a question about this. As I recall from Sunday School,
testing God is supposed to be a no-no. In the second of the three
temptations of Christ, Satan takes Jesus to the top of a temple and
tells him to jump off in order to prove that God will save him from
death. Jesus refuses, saying, "It is written, 'You shall not put the
Lord your God to the test.'"
It's the same deal for prayer: it works, but not if it's being done for
the purpose of testing that it works. It's sort of the Heisenberg
Uncertainty Principle of Christianity.
So here's my question. Christian doctrine says that testing the Lord
won't work, which means a study like this is useless. Scientists say
that science isn't meant to test supernatural phenomena, which means a
study like this is useless. But if everyone agrees that a study like
this is useless, why did the John Templeton Foundation spend $2.4
million on it? What's the point?
UPDATE: Just to make this super-duper clear, I'm not saying the study
was useless because I'm an atheist and I don't believe in prayer. I'm
saying it's useless because even Christians don't think a study like
this would produce any positive results. That's assuming I understand
Christian doctrine correctly, of course.
And don't bother suggesting that the folks doing the praying didn't know
they were part of a test. Double blind protocols might work for us
earthly humans, but they wouldn't fool God.
--
Located In S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
"oeuf tôt pique " Lover
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
Vision Problems? Look at http://www.ocutech.com/ ~us$1500
Bill
"William Wagner" <not-to-here...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:not-to-here-williamwag...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
I'm concerned it is just arrogant to ask God to change his mind when he
settles on one path - because he is all knowing.
Bill
Chris Malcolm
> "William Wagner" <not-to-here...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:not-to-here-williamwag...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> In article <Xns9796DB7C775...@198.186.190.226>,
>> listener <list...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> NEW YORK - Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good? In the
>>> largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no
>>> benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
>>>
>>> And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher
>>> rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.
>> Found this and thought it was worth pondering.
>>
>> Bill who thinks of the sick (I'm one) and cooks what they liked ;))..
>> .........................
>>
>> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
> I'm concerned it is just arrogant to ask God to change his mind when he
> settles on one path - because he is all knowing.
At least it's been established scientifically that telling someone
you're praying for them tends to make them worse. That should reduce
the traffic in this newsgroup a bit :-)
--
Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Bill <x...@yy.zz> wrote:
>
> > "William Wagner" <not-to-here...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:not-to-here-williamwag...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> In article <Xns9796DB7C775...@198.186.190.226>,
> >> listener <list...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >>> NEW YORK - Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good? In the
> >>> largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no
> >>> benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
> >>>
> >>> And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher
> >>> rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.
>
> >> Found this and thought it was worth pondering.
> >>
> >> Bill who thinks of the sick (I'm one) and cooks what they liked ;))..
> >> .........................
> >>
> >> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
>
> > I'm concerned it is just arrogant to ask God to change his mind when he
> > settles on one path - because he is all knowing.
>
> At least it's been established scientifically that telling someone
> you're praying for them tends to make them worse. That should reduce
> the traffic in this newsgroup a bit :-)
You will be in my prayers, dear Chris whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.
You now **know** this will have an effect on your life.
It will be your choice whether this effect will be positive (accepting
blessings from GOD) or negative (having GOD's blessings strike you in
the back of the head knocking you down because you have turned your
back on HIM).
Yes, the latter choice when made by the many who are living lives in
openly rebellion against GOD should reduce the traffic in these USENET
newsgroups quite a bit :-)
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat(04/06/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
if the LORD is willing:
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
Ford T. FreezerClown
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>
> It will be your choice whether this effect will be positive (accepting
> blessings from GOD) or negative (having GOD's blessings strike you in
> the back of the head knocking you down because you have turned your
> back on HIM).
Wow - what a petty, spitefull, creator of the universe he must be.
>
> Yes, the latter choice when made by the many who are living lives in
> openly rebellion against GOD should reduce the traffic in these USENET
> newsgroups quite a bit :-)
>
Even better - A PhD who publicly expresses his hope for the deaths of
people who don't believe in God. Are there any Medical Board Officials
from whatever state this lunatic practices medicine paying attention to
this???
Conspiracy of Doves
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Bill <x...@yy.zz> wrote:
> >
> > > "William Wagner" <not-to-here...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:not-to-here-williamwag...@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > >> In article <Xns9796DB7C775...@198.186.190.226>,
> > >> listener <list...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>> NEW YORK - Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good? In the
> > >>> largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no
> > >>> benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
> > >>>
> > >>> And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher
> > >>> rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.
> >
> > >> Found this and thought it was worth pondering.
> > >>
> > >> Bill who thinks of the sick (I'm one) and cooks what they liked ;))..
> > >> .........................
> > >>
> > >> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
> >
> > > I'm concerned it is just arrogant to ask God to change his mind when he
> > > settles on one path - because he is all knowing.
> >
> > At least it's been established scientifically that telling someone
> > you're praying for them tends to make them worse. That should reduce
> > the traffic in this newsgroup a bit :-)
>
> You will be in my prayers, dear Chris whom I love, in Jesus' most
> precious and holy name.
>
> You now **know** this will have an effect on your life.
>
No, your fantasies won't have even the most remote effect on my life.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Correct. However, prayers are not fantasies.
You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.
May you turn to GOD to receive the powerful blessing that I am asking
HIM to throw to you.
Amen !
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>
> >
> > It will be your choice whether this effect will be positive (accepting
> > blessings from GOD) or negative (having GOD's blessings strike you in
> > the back of the head knocking you down because you have turned your
> > back on HIM).
>
> Wow - what a petty, spitefull, creator of the universe he must be.
As petty and spiteful as the lifeguard who throws a life ring to a
drowning swimmer who refuses to look to the lifeguard for help. The
drowning swimmer being hit on the back of the head with the life ring
thereby realizing an earlier demise is the result of the victim's free
will and not the lifeguard's free will.
You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.
May you turn to GOD to receive the powerful blessing that I am asking
HIM to throw to you.
Amen !
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
Ford T. FreezerClown
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Ford T. FreezerClown wrote:
> > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > It will be your choice whether this effect will be positive (accepting
> > > blessings from GOD) or negative (having GOD's blessings strike you in
> > > the back of the head knocking you down because you have turned your
> > > back on HIM).
> >
> > Wow - what a petty, spitefull, creator of the universe he must be.
>
> As petty and spiteful as the lifeguard who throws a life ring to a
> drowning swimmer who refuses to look to the lifeguard for help. The
> drowning swimmer being hit on the back of the head with the life ring
> thereby realizing an earlier demise is the result of the victim's free
> will and not the lifeguard's free will.
Moron - an all powerfull, infallible lifeguard could simply wrap the
ring around the swimmer in one throw and bring him on shore regardless
of whether the swimmer looked for help or not.
Unless - of course - your god is David Hasslehoff from Baywatch...
Zadok
"Andrew B. Chung, <> wrote in message
> You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus' most
> precious and holy name.
>
> May you turn to GOD to receive the powerful blessing that I am asking
> HIM to throw to you.
>
> Amen !
>
> Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
> cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
> (Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
> thread here during the next on-line chat(04/06/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
> if the LORD is willing:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq
>
> For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
> how the LORD has reshaped me:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo
>
> Prayerfully in Christ's love,
>
> Andrew
> http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
I bet God would be much more impressed with these prayers, if they were not
followed up with a SPAM message flogging a web site??
God sees throught the BULLSHIT!!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
In the interim, you will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love,
in Jesus' most precious and holy name.
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during today's on-line chat (04/06/06) from now until 6 pm
EST, LORD willing:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Ford T. FreezerClown wrote:
> > > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > >
> > > > It will be your choice whether this effect will be positive (accepting
> > > > blessings from GOD) or negative (having GOD's blessings strike you in
> > > > the back of the head knocking you down because you have turned your
> > > > back on HIM).
> > >
> > > Wow - what a petty, spitefull, creator of the universe he must be.
> >
> > As petty and spiteful as the lifeguard who throws a life ring to a
> > drowning swimmer who refuses to look to the lifeguard for help. The
> > drowning swimmer being hit on the back of the head with the life ring
> > thereby realizing an earlier demise is the result of the victim's free
> > will and not the lifeguard's free will.
>
If you were secure in the truth, you would have had the strength to
resist the temptation of descending into namecalling.
> - an all powerfull, infallible lifeguard could simply wrap the
> ring around the swimmer in one throw and bring him on shore regardless
> of whether the swimmer looked for help or not.
Actually, it is not right to save someone with free will who does not
want to be saved.
> Unless - of course - your god is David Hasslehoff from Baywatch...
My GOD is LORD Jesus Christ.
HE is kind, just, and right. Again, it would not be right to save
someone who does not want to be saved... to heal someone who does not
what to be healed...
It is written that Christ Jesus asked folks if they want to be healed
before HE healed them. Just as it can be inferred that HE has not
healed anyone who does not want to be healed, it is implied that HE
will not save anyone who does not want to be saved.
You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus most
precious and holy name.
May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM so that you will someday
know that Christ Jesus is "KING of kings and LORD of lords" so that you
will want to be saved from eternal death and receive eternal life from
HIS fountain of living water.
Amen !
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during today's on-line chat (04/06/06) from now until 6 pm
EST, LORD willing:
Ford T. FreezerClown
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > - an all powerfull, infallible lifeguard could simply wrap the
> > ring around the swimmer in one throw and bring him on shore regardless
> > of whether the swimmer looked for help or not.
>
> Actually, it is not right to save someone with free will who does not
> want to be saved.
I think I speak for most human beings when I say that I have on
occasion helped a friend or family member who has insisited that they
do not need my help, or outright refused it.
I will say again that if your god only helps those who pray, ask for
his help and beg for his attention then he is a petty, spitefull,
mean-spirited dickweed.
Not quite the image of a loving father.
mark...@yahoo.com
It is a fantasy that when you pray you are talking to anyone other than
yourself.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> <snip>
> > > - an all powerfull, infallible lifeguard could simply wrap the
> > > ring around the swimmer in one throw and bring him on shore regardless
> > > of whether the swimmer looked for help or not.
> >
> > Actually, it is not right to save someone with free will who does not
> > want to be saved.
>
> occasion helped a friend or family member who has insisited that they
> do not need my help, or outright refused it.
It was your choice to impose your will on another even though your
choice was not right.
> I will say again that if your god only helps those who pray, ask for
> his help and beg for his attention then he is a petty, spitefull,
> mean-spirited dickweed.
Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat (04/13/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Faith is not fantasy.
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat (04/13/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:
Steve Knight
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
What happened to your EARTHquake?
A couple hundred atheists are waiting for an answer with baited
breath. Are you going to ignore what you said? Like we'll just
forget!?
You owe us.
We've spend a lot to time and energy at the keyboard telling you
how schizophrenic and a waste of air you are... then you just leave us
hanging.
Please. This is unseemingly for the Warlord, but please tell us
what happened. Why didn't god destroy us? Some of us are out of pocket
here.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Faith is not fantasy either.
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat (04/13/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:
Uncle Vic
It certainly isn't reality.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC department of little adhesive-backed shiny plastic
L-shaped doo-dads to add feet to Jesus Fish department
It is safe to say that the bible contains equal amounts of fact, history
and pizza.
-Penn Jillette
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
In my experience, faith changes reality.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> On 6 Apr 2006 11:18:44 -0700, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>
> What happened to your EARTHquake?
It seems that the one associated with the opening of the 6th seal as
described in Revelation 6 has happened.
"Prepare the way for the LORD, make straight paths for HIM." (Matthew
3:3 and Isaiah 40:3)
"Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the
rough ground shall become level, and the rugged places a plain." (Isaiah
40:4)
Dear Friend,
Through many days of continued prayer seeking the LORD's guidance on how
to effectively call out as one of HIS lowly watchmen regarding the
catastrophic event (Revelation 6:14) that may possibly happen very soon,
the above verses which are from both the OT and the NT came to mind.
This electronic message will be a feeble solitary voice calling out into
the desert that is the Internet ever hopeful that it will be heard by
all so that "the glory of the LORD will be revealed." (Isaiah 40:5)
Please help by conveying this message to everyone you know. It will be
my fervent prayer, in Jesus' most precious and holy name, that all who
understand the essence of this message will be protected from all harm
in this time that may possibly be leading to "the great tribulation"
referenced in the 14th verse of Revelation 7. Please join me in our
collectively praying for GOD's protection, HIS continued mercy and HIS
infinite grace for all those who are blessed by an understanding of this
message.
At 10:33 PM (Tokyo time) on 03/28/06, there was a strong and deep
magnitude 6 earthquake that impacted Tokyo:
Then on 03/29/06, an unusual total solar eclipse happened in Turkey at
2:00 PM (LT) that darkened the skies of the ancient cities where the 7
Churches of Christ reside in the same order as given **twice** in
Revelation (1:11 and then chapters 2 through 3). A parallel solar
eclipse apparently happened on this same day (March 29th) in 70AD, which
is the year that Jerusalem was destroyed. This total solar eclipse could
very well be the same eclipse that was seen by John in the prophetic
vision given to him by LORD Jesus Christ as described in the 12th verse
of Revelation 6. A "great earthquake" did precede the solar eclipse
visualized by John as described in Revelation 6:12. And now we face a
possible nuclear showdown with Iran that may result in the fulfillment
of the rest of the elements seen by John for the opening of the 6th seal
(Revelation 6:12-17):
For more details including a link that has descriptions of recent
observed events that may possibly represent the elements in Revelation 6
that precede the catastrophic event heralded by the 14th verse, please
visit the following online article:
http://MabletonGA.OurLittle.net/SolarEclipse
You are invited to sign up for being notified about the next on-line
HeartMDPhD.com chat to ask questions and confirm the authenticity of
this message and its author:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/chat.asp
In the continued interest of making this message "on-topic" for the
USENET newsgroups ACC, SMC, AA, and RFC that are its initial recipients,
would be glad to also chat about LORD Jesus Christ, cardiology, atheism,
and/or cooking food.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Cardiologist and Foundation Advisor
http://www.TheWellnessFoundation.com/
Chris Malcolm
I have my principles, and I personally refuse to have anything to do
with a god who carries on like that. If he chooses to strikes me down
because I disapprove of his behaviour so be it. I do not respond well
to being threatened, even by childish supreme beings.
> Yes, the latter choice when made by the many who are living lives in
> openly rebellion against GOD should reduce the traffic in these USENET
> newsgroups quite a bit :-)
I've declared my choice. Your move, God.
redja...@yahoo.com
I'm quite sure Dr. Earthquack has put many a patient in danger.
Why do you suppose he was fired in Ocala?
blackr...@yahoo.com
years ago. They told me that I would be working with a new
interventional cardiologist who was starting that fall. II decided
that I wasn't ready for the move at that time. (I will snip out the
other newsgroups so maybe this thread won't be perpetuated in them;
you're welcome)
Vicki Beausoleil
He was fired for not providing quality care. After only 88 days on the
job, btw.
Now he says he has a practice and patients in Atlanta, but lo-and-behold
he has no admitting privileges at any hospital in the Atlanta area!
Anyone who sees a doctor that doesn't have admitting privileges,
especially a cardiologist, has a death wish. Heck, doctors whose
patients are seldom hospitalized, like dermatologists, ophthalmologists
and even dentists can get admitting privileges.
Quoted from
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/395/rev_oig_comments.doc:
"The value of clinical privileges is found in a physician's ability to
exercise those privileges to admit her/his patients, to utilize
sophisticated diagnostic technology, to rely on a competent professional
staff to care for the patient and to seek consultation from specialists
on the hospital staff. For example, a surgeon without clinical
privileges or access to the operating room is a physician without a
practice or a means to make her/his living. Absent of the ability to
utilize clinical privileges, many physicians cannot realistically
practice medicine." and... "Clinical privileges are crucial to
physicians. Without clinical privileges,
physicians cannot admit patients to a hospital for treatment. Most, if
not all, physicians cannot practice medicine effectively without the
ability to admit patients to a hospital when necessary or to provide
consultation when requested."
Again, his ISP is Bellsouth.
I also see that google has given him the toss.
Vicki
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> redja...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I disagree with the notion that prayer has no effect on heart patients.
> > I'm quite sure Dr. Earthquack has put many a patient in danger.
> >
> > Why do you suppose he was fired in Ocala?
>
> He was fired for not providing quality care. After only 88 days on the
> job, btw.
Guess again:
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat(04/13/06***) from 5 to 6 pm
EST, if the LORD is willing:
*** The Passover Moon might be fully blood red this year now that the
Lamb has possibly opened the 6th seal.
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
No. Thankfully not. Their founder, Dr. Carmichael is a fine Christian
gentleman, excellent cardiac surgeon blessed by GOD with ability, and
one who prays on behalf of his patients.
In contrast, my former employers ordered the falsification of patient
records as previously described in the Google archives and in the
investigative files of the Florida Composite Board of Medical
Examiners:
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat(04/13/06***) from 5 to 6 pm
EST, if the LORD is willing:
*** The Passover Moon might be fully blood red this year now that the
Lamb has possibly opened the 6th seal.
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
Vicki Beausoleil
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Correct:
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat(04/13/06***) from 5 to 6 pm
EST, if the LORD is willing:
*** The Passover Moon might be fully blood red this year now that the
Lamb has possibly opened the 6th seal.
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
blackr...@yahoo.com
redja...@yahoo.com
"In contrast, my former employers ordered the falsification of patient
records as previously described in the Google archives and in the
investigative files of the Florida Composite Board of Medical
Examiners: "
------------------------------------------------------
How come your archive link hasn't a single quote from the arbitration
hearing? All we see are your allegations and accusations.
I DO, however, see a letter from your former employer chastizing you,
legally warning you about slanderous statements on your website, and
admonishing you to get a grip on reality and to stop throwing your
career away.
It doesn't take much of a gift of 'discernment' to see that you
completely ignored him on the latter.
Here's some reminders, from Dr. Hildner's letter, of things you have
been told time and time again on Usenet:
" I believe what I do say will probably be twisted or interpreted by
you to suit your purposes."
"Any reasonable person seeing these things may justifiably conclude
that it is you that is out of step, not the other 15 or 20
cardiologists in Ocala. As I have in the past, I am trying to get you
to see the reality of the situation from outside your head. You have
chosen to ignore the good advice I tried to give while you were here. I
hope you will soon realize you are doing yourself more harm than good
by publishing your dispute. It would be better to let it go, before
your reputation suffers more. "
"But as I told you face to face, you may have great book smarts, but
your actions have shown that you have no
common sense that permits you to operate successfully in a professional
community."
"Your practice, wherever it may be, must be according to the community
standard, regardless of what you perceive that to be. And an attitude
that you vocalized by saying that you were unable to change the
community standard in Ocala speaks loudly and clearly about your
perception of reality and your inability to work with your colleagues.
"
"If you persist in these efforts of hitting back and trying to justify
your actions to a world that looks upon such
attempts as childish or immature and unprofessional, you will continue
to do yourself a disservice. You lost your job because you talked
yourself out of it. "
Oh, and be sure to snip and twist this post 'til it's unrecognizable,
Andy - just like you do with the bible.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Such are the consequences of your choices which you make through the
free will that GOD has generously given you.
In the interim, GOD remains kind, just and right while you remain
steeped in sin as we all are without HIM.
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat (04/13/06***) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:
*** The Passover Moon might be fully blood red this year now that the
Lamb has possibly opened the 6th seal.
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gbj6w
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Simply note that the link goes to a public post that has stood the test
of time and is invariant from even earlier public posts archived in
Google.
Truth remains absolute and invincible.
Mark K. Bilbo
<443CAC1E...@heartmdphd.com>...
> Truth remains absolute and invincible.
But you still don't know the zip code...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"Corps chief admits to 'design failure'"
(Took them long enough)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J3EF62DEC
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Previously, on alt.atheism, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD in episode
> <443CAC1E...@heartmdphd.com>...
>
> > Truth remains absolute and invincible.
>
> But you still don't know the zip code...
Without the LORD, your beliefs are meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
You will remains in my prayers, dear Mark whom I love in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.
"Prepare the way for the LORD, make straight paths for HIM." (Matthew
Dear Friend,
It is possible that Tehran is the physical representation on this globe
of the spirit of Babylon, which is "the great city that rules over the
kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)
Indeed, using the letters from "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5),
one can form the phrase "At Tehran by Globe."
For more details including a link that has descriptions of recent
observed events that may possibly represent the elements in Revelation 6
that precede the catastrophic event heralded by the 14th verse, please
visit the following online article:
http://MabletonGA.OurLittle.net/SolarEclipse
You are invited to sign up for being notified about the next on-line
HeartMDPhD.com chat to ask questions and confirm the authenticity of
this message and its author:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/chat.asp
In the continued interest of making this message "on-topic" for the
USENET newsgroups ACC, SMC, AA, and ASD that are its initial recipients,
would be glad to also chat about LORD Jesus Christ, cardiology, atheism,
and/or diabetes.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
redja...@yahoo.com
Simply note that the link goes to a public post that has stood the test
of time and is invariant from even earlier public posts archived in
Google.
Truth remains absolute and invincible.
-------------------------------
And you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on the ass.
Way to back away from your allegations that "my former employers
ordered the falsification of patient
records as previously described in the Google archives and in the
investigative files of the Florida Composite Board of Medical
Examiners:"
No proof archived whatsoever - only you bearing false witness again.
What IS archived, son, is proof positive that you flipped off your
mental rails and got fired for it. Regardez:
Subject: Your Website
From: ROCKETMAN51...@aol.com
Date: 10/04/2001 11:18 AM
To: and...@heartmdphd.com
Dr. Chung:
Any comments I make at this time are mine alone and do not necessarily
reflect the views of CFHC. **REFERENCE TO CENTRAL FLORIDA HEArT CENTER,
WHERE ANDY WAS FIRED AFTER 88 DAYS AND HAD TO FLEE FLORIDA TO CONTINUE
TO PRACTICE MEDICINE**
After going through this difficult time with you, I understand that you
are probably not interested in anything I have to say. Also, I believe
what I do say will probably be twisted or interpreted by you to suit
your purposes. For that reason I will be as direct and declarative as
possible.
Your website comments about cardiology in Ocala, FL are detractions and
border on slander. These are legal terms, and one of the important
features of them is that the comments are published. Your website
fulfills that requirement. Now just reflect on the fact that you are
the
only one to make such insinuations or allegations. Any reasonable
person
seeing these things may justifiably conclude that it is you that is out
of step, not the other 15 or 20 cardiologists in Ocala. As I have in
the
past, I am trying to get you to see the reality of the situation from
outside your head. You have chosen to ignore the
good advice I tried to give while you were here. I hope you will soon
realize you are doing yourself more harm than good by publishing your
dispute. It would be better to let it go, before your reputation
suffers
more.
Speaking of reputations, I have spent 35 years building mine. I can
call
on physicians from around the world and this community to attest to it.
I can also call upon the many physicians I trained to do cardiac
catheterization (over 25 years) to offer a positive opinion about my
work. You can't. Being just out of training, you have no reputation
except the one you have just established here in Ocala. You are
continuing to establish your reputation by publishing your website. How
do you think what you have said would look to another physician-perhaps
an employer- when he reads it? Do you think he or anyone would conclude
that you are a reputable physician, easy to work with and a team
player?
Personally, if I find that you speak disparagingly of me, or my work to
any patient or physician, be assured I will not take the matter
lightly.
Whatever you think of me personally, or whatever you think of my
professional activity, you do not have the right to condemn either me
or
the work to another and thereby compromise my reputation. You may
disagree with me, or state we have a difference of opinion, but you may
not state that I am practicing less that optimum cardiology. Once
again,
if I find that you have done so (and I hope it has not happened yet) I
will certainly take the matter to the State Board of Medicine for a
hearing. If the Florida State Board finds cause, and renders a censure,
that must be transmitted to all other State Boards on your next and all
future applications for licensure. And once again, just common sense
should tell you that hitting back in your situation is
counterproductive
and could be disastrous for you. But as I told you face to face, you
may
have great book smarts, but your actions have shown that you have no
common sense that permits you to operate successfully in a professional
community. And, once again, I will tell you what I did before, you do
not operate in a vacuum. Your practice, wherever it may be, must be
according to the community standard, regardless of what you perceive
that to be. And an attitude that you vocalized by saying that you were
unable to change the community standard in Ocala speaks loudly and
clearly about your perception of reality and your inability to work
with
your colleagues.
Dr. Chung, I urgently advise you to let the past go. Look to your
future
which could be bright. If you persist in these efforts of hitting back
and trying to justify your actions to a world that looks upon such
attempts as childish or immature and unprofessional, you will continue
to do yourself a disservice. You lost your job because you talked
yourself out of it.
Frank Hildner MD
f...@orgren.org
----End Email----
(originally posted June 5 2005 by Dr. Ching)
blackr...@yahoo.com
by you to suit your purposes."
Dr. Hildner knew Andrew Chung very well, indeed.
morsie
Listening to you and your cronies foul language and drivel, I pray to
God that if my heart ever needs medical attention, I won't land in your
'caring' hands!!!!
morsie
redja...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Andy sez:
>
>
> Truth remains absolute and invincible.
>
>
> -------------------------------
> And you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on the ass.
>
> Way to back away from your allegations that "my former employers
> ordered the falsification of patient
> records as previously described in the Google archives and in the
> investigative files of the Florida Composite Board of Medical
> Examiners:"
>
> Subject: Your Website
> From: ROCKETMAN51...@aol.com
> Date: 10/04/2001 11:18 AM
> To: and...@heartmdphd.com
>
>
> Dr. Chung:
> Any comments I make at this time are mine alone and do not necessarily
> reflect the views of CFHC. **REFERENCE TO CENTRAL FLORIDA HEArT CENTER,
> WHERE ANDY WAS FIRED AFTER 88 DAYS AND HAD TO FLEE FLORIDA TO CONTINUE
> TO PRACTICE MEDICINE**
>
>
>
> future
> which could be bright. If you persist in these efforts of hitting back
> and trying to justify your actions to a world that looks upon such
> attempts as childish or immature and unprofessional, you will continue
> to do yourself a disservice. You lost your job because you talked
> yourself out of it.
>
>
> Frank Hildner MD
> f...@orgren.org
>
>
> ----End Email----
Scary....sounds so much like a threatening letter. Strange phrase to
use by an innocent person "If you persist in these efforts of hitting
back"...strange, look at 'effort' and 'hitting back'. Hitting
back.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
It was. They did come after me. Thankfully, the LORD's armor protected
me. Blessed are those who are saved from their first death because the
LORD will save them from all subsequent deaths.
> Strange phrase to
> use by an innocent person "If you persist in these efforts of hitting
> back"...strange, look at 'effort' and 'hitting back'. Hitting
> back.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The untruthful are injured by all things truthful including their own
reflection.
Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat this evening (04/13/06) from 5 to 6 pm
EST, LORD willing:
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Even if you did, the LORD would protect you :-)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
The truth appears "twisted" to the untruthful even when it's a mirror.
You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.
"Prepare the way for the LORD, make straight paths for HIM." (Matthew
Dear Friend,
http://MabletonGA.OurLittle.net/SolarEclipse
In the continued interest of making this message "on-topic" for the
USENET newsgroups ACC, SMC, AA, and RFC that are its initial recipients,
would be glad to also chat about LORD Jesus Christ, cardiology, atheism,
and/or cooking food.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Andy sez:
>
> Simply note that the link goes to a public post that has stood the test
>
> of time and is invariant from even earlier public posts archived in
> Google.
>
> Truth remains absolute and invincible.
>
> -------------------------------
> And you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on the ass.
It seems that the truth has mortally wounded you just as it has cut off
Dr. Hildner's arms and legs (simply note that his threats have not been
realized despite 5 years of desperate attacks thanks to the LORD's armor
which protects all those who walk with HIM).
Please consider yourself vanquished. All glory belongs to the LORD who
has stripped all power from satan and his minions.
Nonetheless, you will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love,
in Jesus' most precious and holy name.
May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM so that you will also someday
know that Jesus Christ is indeed:
"KING of kings and LORD of lords."
blackr...@yahoo.com
drivel, I pray to
God that if my heart ever needs medical attention, I won't land in your
'caring' hands!!!!
Then I will hope that you land in the hands of Andrew Chung! (P.S.
You would get excellent care with me and "my cronies," by the way.
Very religious doctors who would do their best for you but not hit you
in the face with their religious beliefs.)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Morsie wrote: Listening to you and your cronies foul language and
> drivel, I pray to
> God that if my heart ever needs medical attention, I won't land in your 'caring' hands!!!!
>
>
> Then I will hope that you land in the hands of Andrew Chung!
Many thanks and praises to the LORD for your wishing your neighbor
well.
The LORD heals people through those who have been reborn of water and
the Holy Spirit.
> (P.S.
> You would get excellent care with me and "my cronies," by the way.
> Very religious doctors who would do their best for you but not hit you
> in the face with their religious beliefs.)
Without the LORD, religion and being religious are meaningless
(Ecclesiastes).
You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.
May GOD continue to draw your closer to HIM so that you someday will
also know that Jesus Christ is indeed:
"KING of kings and LORD of lords."
Amen and amen ! ! ! ! ! ! !
blackr...@yahoo.com
Andrew Chung worte: Many thanks and praises to the LORD for your
wishing your neighbor
well.
He would get better care from us, but that is his choice to make.
(Have deleted the other newsgroups you spammed; you are welcome)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> I wrote: Then I will hope that you land in the hands of Andrew Chung!
>
> Andrew Chung worte: Many thanks and praises to the LORD for your
> wishing your neighbor well.
>
> He would get better care from us
That is not what I discern.
>, but that is his choice to make.
... and the LORD's choice to heal.
You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.
"Prepare the way for the LORD, make straight paths for HIM." (Matthew