heart problem and tai chi
Angelo Trischitta
Thanks
Angelo
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Is "tai chi" dangerouse for who has heart problem?
>
no.
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Richard Cavell
> Is "tai chi" dangerouse for who has heart problem?
Only in the most extreme case. For ordinary cases, no. Tai chi can be
good for you.
Noreen Cooper
:> Is "tai chi" dangerouse for who has heart problem?
I found a couple of conflicting studies in Medline. The first study
offers a glowing report on the benefits of Tai Chi:
1: Ann Behav Med 2001 Spring;23(2):139-46
An evaluation of the effects of Tai Chi exercise on physical function
among older persons: a randomized contolled trial.
Li F, Harmer P, McAuley E, Duncan TE, Duncan SC, Chaumeton N, Fisher KJ.
Oregon Research Institute, Eugene 97403, USA. fuzh...@ori.org
This study was designed to determine whether a 6-month Tai Chi exercise
program can improve self-reported physical functioning limitations among
healthy, physically inactive older individuals. Ninety-four community
residents ages 65 to 96 (Mage = 72.8 years, SD = 5.1) volunteered to
participate in the study. Participants were randomly assigned to either a
6-month experimental (Tai Chi) group (n = 49), which exercised twice per
week for 60 min, or a wait-list control group (n = 45). A 6-item
self-report physical functioning scale, assessing the extent of
behavioral dysfunction caused by health problems, was used to evaluate
change in physical functioning limitations as a result of Tai Chi
intervention. Results indicated that compared to the control group,
participants in the Tai Chi group experienced significant improvements in
all aspects of physical functioning over the course of the 6-month
intervention. Overall, the experimental group had 65% improvement across
all 6 functional status measures ranging from daily activities such as
walking and lifting to moderate-vigorous activities such as running. It
was concluded that the 6-month Tai Chi exercise program was effective for
improving functional status in healthy, physically inactive older adults.
A self-paced and self-controlled activity such as Tai Chi has
thepotential to be an effective, low-cost means of improving functional
status in older persons.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 11394556 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
---
However, the second study brings up the problem of HRV (Heart Rate
Variance), which is probably a factor in any form of exercise:
Clin Physiol Funct Imaging 2002 Jan;22(1):2-3
Taichiquan acutely increases heart rate variability.
Vaananen J, Xusheng S, Wang S, Laitinen T, Pekkarinen H, Lansimies E.
Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
A group of 15 elderly men and 14 young male students of physical
education made twice a series of Taichiquan (TCQ) practices. Their
electrocardiograms were recorded on tape-recorder and heart rates and
heart rate variability (HRV) were calculated from digitized data. Here we
report the results of recordings in supine positions before and after the
first and second series of TCQ. Intervals between heart beats (RRIs) and
their standard deviation (SDNN) increased in older men from recordings
before the exercise to postexercise. In young subjects the SDNN and total
variance (TV) of RRIs increased. HRV increases immediately after
TCQ-exercise in young and old male healthy subjects. Whether these
practices have permanent effects and effects in patients need controlled
and prospective studies.
PMID: 12003094 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
---
I am certainly not going to dispute what the two doctors on this list have
concluded about Tai Chi being a relatively harmless form of exercise for
cardiac patients; however, it is worth pointing out that any form of
exercise when you have a heart condition must be approved and monitored by
your cardiologist. Whether or not Tai Chi is good for *you* as a heart
patient depends on your age, your diagnosis, and your level of fitness.
Noreen
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Noreen Cooper wrote:
> I am certainly not going to dispute what the two doctors on this list have
> concluded about Tai Chi being a relatively harmless form of exercise for
> cardiac patients; however, it is worth pointing out that any form of
> exercise when you have a heart condition must be approved and monitored by
> your cardiologist. Whether or not Tai Chi is good for *you* as a heart
> patient depends on your age, your diagnosis, and your level of fitness.
>
In general I would agree but I would hesitate at requiring physician
monitoring for *any* exercise in cardiac patients.
Exercise that fit within what I call "activities of daily living" (ADLs) which
are generally low-impact and unlikely to cause physical injury (ie walking,
cooking, cleaning, washing, showering, shopping, etc) do not really require
physician supervision/monitoring.
IMO, Tai Chi is an exercise that is more meditational than exertional. It
really is not more exertional that ADLs.
Noreen Cooper
: In general I would agree but I would hesitate at requiring physician
: monitoring for *any* exercise in cardiac patients.
Point well taken.
: IMO, Tai Chi is an exercise that is more meditational than exertional. It
: really is not more exertional that ADLs.
Unfortunately, adaptations on the traditional Chinese form of Tai Chi
abound in the West which are far more exertional. For a brief description
of different modern Tai Chi styles, visit:
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg9.htm
You can observe the same phenomenon happening with yoga where the Hindu
roots provided a gentle form of stretching. However, allow yoga to enter
a Type A culture like the U.S. and you'll get Power Yoga, or variants
thereof, which require an Olympic athlete to go through the entire
routine.
Noreen
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Noreen Cooper wrote:
The forms of Tai Chi billed as for "general health care" are the forms I have in
mind as being unlikely to cause injury. One can routinely see octagenerians in
the parks of China engaged in these forms of "exercise."
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Atlanta Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
Tiger Lily
don't know where you take tai chi, but it's a matter of centering yourself
and working thru a VERY non exertional exercise program
walking is more stressful
finding your centre, and balancing your body is the focus of the Tai Chi
classes in my area........... works VERY well for heart patients..... gets
them FURTHER into knowing about where their blood pressure is etc
i would HIGHLY recommend Tai Chi of the sort i do to any heart patient as a
STARTING point for their exercise
"Noreen Cooper" <nco...@wahoo.sjsu.edu> wrote in message
news:akmdis$btjv$1...@hades.csu.net...
Noreen Cooper
: don't know where you take tai chi, but it's a matter of centering yourself
: and working thru a VERY non exertional exercise program
: walking is more stressful
Tai Chi can be as stressful as you make it, depending on how low your
stance. Mostly, I practice my online search skills with questions on this
group which intrigue me. I found an article in Medline which did cite a
study showing an increase in HRV with (granted) a very small group of
people who practiced Tai Chi.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read in other places that an
increased HRV in the elderly may increase the risk for ventriculur
arrhythmias and cardiac death. Since we do not know the age of the person
who posted the question, I thought I'd bring it up that some forms of Tai
Chi are more vigorous than others.
I'm more of an expert on yoga, however. I have seen people walk into
rather Yang (active) yoga classes and believe yoga is an aerobic sport.
I'm sure the Tai Chi forms you and Dr. Chung are familiar with are
completely safe for anyone. However, it's important to point out that
other styles are out there which provide more of an aerobic workout.
Noreen
olc...@cox.net
<and...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
These forms are not the problem. If you start looking for Tai Chi
classes, you will find many are from martial arts studios which have
embellished it with the uniforms and belts of karate and other martial
arts. Look for an instructor that understands that the martial arts
aspects of Tai Chi are NOT the primary purpose, but emphasizes the
meditative aspects and improving balance.
If you are told to wear anything but street clothes, walk away.
olc...@cox.net
wrote:
>Tiger Lily <Tige...@nospam.alt-support-diabetes.org> wrote:
>
>: don't know where you take tai chi, but it's a matter of centering yourself
>: and working thru a VERY non exertional exercise program
>
>: walking is more stressful
>
>Tai Chi can be as stressful as you make it, depending on how low your
>stance. Mostly, I practice my online search skills with questions on this
>group which intrigue me. I found an article in Medline which did cite a
>study showing an increase in HRV with (granted) a very small group of
>people who practiced Tai Chi.
Any physical activity can be as stressful as you make it. If Tai Chi
is stressful because of the lowness of your stance, then it's to low.
Most beginners are near upright. Lowering the stance happens over time
at a non-stressful pace.
Lee Babcock
Noreen..... I'm going to jump in here as this is something I'm very
knowlegable on.
I have taught Taoist style Tai Chi for a number of years and virtually
anyone can do THIS VERSION of Tai Chi. It is the 'original' version
and entails 108 moves.
The second study you quote is a specialized shortened version of Tai
Chi. There are many forms of the art and some have been changed to
market to the American populations liking for rigorous martial art
forms.
I have taught people with arthritis, club feet, heart problems and
including people in wheelchairs. With a competant instructor, almost
anyone can do Tai Chi. I myself have severe arthritis, and heart
problems as well and I manage it quite well.
When I teach seniors (I've had students in their 90's) I have customized
and combined some of the foundation moves for people with laxative
dependancy, headaches and balance problems and they can work wonders.
Regards
Lee in Toronto
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Lee Babcock
Dr. Chung........ I'm going to agree with most of what you just stated.
However, Tai Chi, properly taught and once the student has learned 'the
set' will bring the heart to aerobic levels. Our Tai Chi association
requires a letter from all potential students with heart problems to
bring a letter of approval. Mind you, we get all kinds of students
referred by cardiologists, rheumatologists and orthopedic surgeons to
help in their recovery/rehabilition.
If anyone wants to learn more about the health benefits of Taoist Tai
Chi:
http://www.taoist.org/index.htm
Lee Babcock
> If you are told to wear anything but street clothes, walk away.
NOT true.
I've taught it for years (as a volunteer) and my students are requested
to wear loose fitting clothes with an elastic waist and shoes with flat
and fairly thin flexible shoes. Not quite street clothes, but
definitely not jazzed up to appeal to the martial arts types, but then
that is not true Tai Chi!
Lee Babcock
>
> wow, Noreen........ my tai chi classes are VERY subdued
>
> don't know where you take tai chi, but it's a matter of centering yourself
> and working thru a VERY non exertional exercise program
>
> walking is more stressful
>
> finding your centre, and balancing your body is the focus of the Tai Chi
> classes in my area........... works VERY well for heart patients..... gets
> them FURTHER into knowing about where their blood pressure is etc
>
> i would HIGHLY recommend Tai Chi of the sort i do to any heart patient as a
> STARTING point for their exercise
Kate....... are you doing Taoist Tai Chi at our centre?
REgards
Lee in Toronto doing needle at sea bottom
Tiger Lily
"Lee Babcock" <> wrote in message ...
> Tiger Lily wrote:
> >
> > wow, Noreen........ my tai chi classes are VERY subdued
> >
> > don't know where you take tai chi, but it's a matter of centering
yourself
> > and working thru a VERY non exertional exercise program
> >
> > walking is more stressful
> >
> > finding your centre, and balancing your body is the focus of the Tai Chi
> > classes in my area........... works VERY well for heart patients.....
gets
> > them FURTHER into knowing about where their blood pressure is etc
> >
> > i would HIGHLY recommend Tai Chi of the sort i do to any heart patient
as a
> > STARTING point for their exercise
>
> Kate....... are you doing Taoist Tai Chi at our centre?
> REgards
lol...... no at the local high school............ and most of the members in
my class are over 60......... very nice, centering and balanced
exercise....... works wonders to relieve stress ! ! ! and yes, Taoist is
the form i'm doing
Noreen Cooper
: I have taught Taoist style Tai Chi for a number of years and virtually
: anyone can do THIS VERSION of Tai Chi. It is the 'original' version
: and entails 108 moves.
: The second study you quote is a specialized shortened version of Tai
: Chi. There are many forms of the art and some have been changed to
: market to the American populations liking for rigorous martial art
: forms.
My point exactly. The amazing curative and stress-reducing properties of
these ancient traditions are being diluted to meet the demand of faster,
harder, leaner.
Dean Ornish used a very traditional form of yoga, Integral Yoga, in his
study with heart patients. He had quite a few Type A personalities enter
his program and come out more balanced with the gentler approach.
However, not much hope in altering Type A behavior with some of the yoga
programs out there today. Type A yoga for Type A practitioners.
Same applies for Tai Chi.
Noreen (sadly, another soapbox issue)
Lee Babcock
It can apply to Tai Chi. Often, when I get some young guy with an
attitude that Tai Chi is 'wimpy', I ask him to help me demonstrate the
move, grasp bird's tail. After he picks his ass up from the floor, I
explain that the names are symbolic and how the grasp bird's tail is a
very calculated application of forces that will allow a even a small
weak person to lay out a big hulking strong idiot like himself. Allways
works and they gain a new respect and interest.
Problem is, that if Tai Chi is taught in a for profit setting, it can
be corrupted.
end user
A doctor's ok???? As a one with a "heart problem" (had bypass surgery
in 1995 for my birthday), I went thru 4 classes (each was 8 weeks long
and were 2 hrs per week) at age 64; didn't have a problem "except" that
I wasn't able to do the kicks well as I'm not that flexible (wu style
tai chi).
I found that tai chi is really relaxing even tho at the end of each
2 hr class, I felt "warmer", not quite sweating....
Anyway, my HMO either has tai chi classes at the facilities or provides
a room for use for classes given by someone else. Perhaps since a doctor
is not that far away, there wasn't any mention of people with a heart
problem nor a doctor's ok.....
Seeing this thread, I should go back to it.......it did feel good and I
"should" do some of the exercise at home....
dolores
Dr. Chung, I am amazed that you find tai chi more meditational than
physical. I took a tai chi class and dropped out after two classes.
It was so exhausting to learn the different postures. It looks so
easy because every time I saw tai chi being practiced it involved
really old people slowly moving in a park somewhere in the far east.
The class was two hours long and after the first 45 minutes I was
exhausted. My daughter"s phys ed teacher in college teaches tai chi
and says that for beginners a half hour lesson is plenty. I have been
looking for a tai chi class that is of short duration and so far the
only one I can find is 1 1/2 hours long.
Dolores
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Dr. Chung, I am amazed that you find tai chi more meditational than
> physical. I took a tai chi class and dropped out after two classes.
> It was so exhausting to learn the different postures.
Learning the different postures and movements can be taxing but typically not in the increased
heart rate sort of way.
> It looks so
> easy because every time I saw tai chi being practiced it involved
> really old people slowly moving in a park somewhere in the far east.
>
Who have learned the movements cold so that they do not have to even think about them.
>
> The class was two hours long and after the first 45 minutes I was
> exhausted. My daughter"s phys ed teacher in college teaches tai chi
> and says that for beginners a half hour lesson is plenty. I have been
> looking for a tai chi class that is of short duration and so far the
> only one I can find is 1 1/2 hours long.
>
Why not learn from your daughter's phys ed teacher?
olc...@cox.net
<leeba...@pathcom.com> wrote:
>olc...@cox.net wrote:
>
>
>> If you are told to wear anything but street clothes, walk away.
>
>NOT true.
>I've taught it for years (as a volunteer) and my students are requested
>to wear loose fitting clothes with an elastic waist and shoes with flat
>and fairly thin flexible shoes. Not quite street clothes, but
>definitely not jazzed up to appeal to the martial arts types, but then
>that is not true Tai Chi!
>Regards
>Lee in Toronto
>
Perhaps I should have said any special uniforms. Certainly you want
loose fitting clothing and shoes that let you feel what you are doing.
olc...@cox.net
Too many martial arts people are adding it to their offerings to catch
the new agers. Like everything else, you need to know what you are
buying by doing some research before you start.