Buying text book
Loomis Philanthrope
Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
that surely can be found in the library for free.
Loomis
Lynn Killingbeck
If it is not worth the price to you, then just go to the library every
time you need to reference the book. And, hope that it has not been
checked out! I value my time more highly than that. And, like to have
good books at hand for ready reference.
Personally, I find books far more useful than on-line sources when I
want to understand something in any depth. Among other questions you
should ask yourself, is "What is the credibility of the on-line source?"
You are asking this in sci.math - which, along with sci.physics, seems
to have an unusually high kooks/data ratio. How do you know that any
response you get from a newsgroup is correct - or correct for some cases
but not for others, or incomplete, or outright wrong (even though
sounding plausible to the gullible)? The same goes for on-line sites.
Books are still sometimes wrong. I picked up one a few months ago where
the challenge is to find a page _without_ errors! But, the immense
effort that goes into writing and publishing a book seems to make the
book more reliable than on-line sources (although on-line sources may
be better, if the author(s) does updates).
The assessment of whether or not to buy the book has to be yours. If
running to the library suits you, do so. Good luck when you get caught
with an unannounced in-class quiz that requires the book! While at
college, I would have found that an intolerable waste of my limited time
for day-to-day routine studies.
By the way, the whole purpose of many math books is to teach "theorems
and proofs". Of course that is what the book contains!!!
Lynn Killingbeck
Loomis Philanthrope
> The assessment of whether or not to buy the book has to be yours. If
> running to the library suits you, do so. Good luck when you get caught
> with an unannounced in-class quiz that requires the book! While at
> college, I would have found that an intolerable waste of my limited time
> for day-to-day routine studies.
I don't plan on running to the library day to day. I brought up the library
to express the fact that what is in the book is essentially free, not that I
would rely on other sources for that info. By the way, the cost of
photocopying the sections of the book necessary for this class would be less
than $15.
> By the way, the whole purpose of many math books is to teach "theorems
> and proofs". Of course that is what the book contains!!!
And why should I pay one particular author for collecting these theorems? I
am not critisizing the book for being a collection of theorems and proofs, I
am stating that such a collection should not command the price the bookstore
expects.
Loomis
Chris Hillman
On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Loomis Philanthrope wrote:
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
First the good news: some will strenously disagree with me, but I am
convinced that studying this particular book is one of the most worthwhile
activities a serious math student can embark upon. Even those who dislike
the book will probably admit that this is one of the classic math
textbooks written during this century. (This was the textbook used in the
undergraduate analysis course I took, and I loved the course and the
book.)
Now the bad news: $97 is an absolutely outrageous price for any book!
Blame the publishing industry, not the author.
Let me single out for particular praise the University of Cambridge Press,
which is the one academic publishing house which is obviously making a
real effort to make math books as affordable as possible for undergraduate
students. And let me single out for particular opprobrium Wiley and
Kluwer, which are making a practice of publishing outrageously overpriced
textbooks.
Students everywhere--- if you don't like the price of a book, complain to
the department chair! If enough people do that, word -will- get back to
the textbook committees who ignore price in choosing a textbook, and
maybe, just maybe (it is a pretty faint hope, but just maybe) bye and bye
publishers will begin to get the message that such outrageous pricing
practices can no longer be tolerated.
By the way, the price doesn't go to pay authors, technical copy-editors,
editors, producers, graphics artists, software writers (for the software
sold with many textbooks nowadays--- another scam, IMO), or even paper and
ink. It doesn't even go to pay shareholders. No---the price goes to pay
the armies of salespeople who travel around the country trying to sell
different universities on the publisher's -calculus- texbooks, which can
be fantastically lucrative, for the publisher, if they are adopted by
large numbers of large universities.
Back of the envelope computation: imagine 1000 calculus students per
semester at a large university paying $50 per book, multiplied by say 100
universities, multiplied by say thirty years [five editions] multiplied by
three semesters per year [don't forget summer!], and you have a cool half
billion dollars worth of sales resulting from a really popular calculus
textbook. So basically, the publishers overprice -all- their other
academic books in order to pay their salespeople, all in hope of getting a
lock on a really popular calculus textbook, which can make returns for the
shareholders for dozens of years to come, with nice bonuses for the CEO.
They figure they can get away with that, because undergraduate students
are percieved as being naive and easy marks for a scam.
By the way, these expensive armies of salespeople also are charged with
trying to coopt the faculty by a dandy little kickback scheme--- they'll
buy back, at almost full price, the "faculty sample" books which are sent
out -free- to full professors around the country. At least some
professors I know refuse to play this dirty little game, but some,
unfortunately, are happy to become part of the whole sleazy system, and
shame on anyone who has ever sold back a book this way!
So know you know why you are being asked to pay a hundred dollars for a
textbook. I say you should refuse, and at the first class meeting, you
should send around a nicely typed petition addressed to the chair,
complaining about the outrageous price of the textbook. Dimes to dozen
every single student will sign; in fact, even the instructor may be happy
to sign!
Publishers may care to dispute my claims, but if they do, I and a whole
lot of students (and authors!) would like to see some very hard proof,
because a one hundred dollar textbook obviously takes a lot of explaining.
Chris "Students of the World, Revolt!" Hillman
Home Page: http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/personal.html
John René Lastré
a few people think that it is a "classic". $97 is a bit steap for a 300+ page
book. But then again I've paid $170 for other books.
Loomis Philanthrope wrote:
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
>
> Loomis
Don Redmond
It seems what you are paying for is not the theorems and proofs, but
their arrangement. The author is putting together the material in such
a way as to teach something. That's what you're paying for.
However, I would be one of the first to agree with you that textbook
prices are outrageous. A textbook that I wrote is so expensive that I
will never use it as a textbook, but that's just me. The publisher
doesn't care what I think and charges as they will.
Don
Allan Adler
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
It's a good book, as I recall.
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
It is absolutely outrageous that the book costs so much and that
the department chose such an expensive book. One of the reviews
of the book denounces McGraw-Hill for charging so much for the
book. Has anyone asked Rudin how he feels about this?
The second edition (1964) is currently on auction at Amazon.com and the
current bid is 20 dollars.
If that doesn't work, you can call up McGraw-Hill and ask them
for permission to photocopy an old copy of the book. Maybe Rudin
can give permission?
Also, there is probably a very cheap edition of the book selling
for 2 rupees a copy in Bombay, distributed by East-West publishers.
So if you have any contacts in Bombay about to get on a plane to
the US, you might be able to persuade them to bring you a copy
as a gift.
As the Amazon.com auction shows, there are old editions kicking around
and you might find one in used book stores.
The book has been around for so long, every faculty member in the
math department might have a copy and one of them might lend it
to you. People in other departments might also have copies, e.g.
the economics department.
Another possibility is that you and one or more other students
can share a copy of the book. The logistics of doing this can be
tricky, but figure that most of the time you won't be reading the
book, so sharing is possible in principle. All you really need
is someone to manage it. One possibility, if they will go along with
it, is for the library to hold it for you on reserve (the prof might
be able to arrange for this to be done, e.g. to have several students
in the class agree to deposit their copies in the library for the
semester)) and then you can just read it there, with none of the hassle
of trying to find each other when you need the book. Just agree that
you will only use it in the library. If there is some other place you
all have access to and can trust each other not to remove it from there,
you can use it there, in effect creating your own reading room. There is
no reason such a cooperative could not become a permanent student
organization, possibly even with some support from the university,
if the library isn't available for that purpose. At the end of the
semester, you can sell or give your old textbooks to the cooperative
and they will remain available to students forever afterwards.
Finally, there might be a copy in the university library, perhaps of
an older edition. Some universities require their libraries to acquire
all their textbooks so the students can use the book without buying it.
If so, a responsible prof will have put at least one of the books on
reserve and you can use that one, or there might be additional copies
that circulate and you can take one out.
Here are the difficulties with trying to use another book:
(1) There might be certain conventions adopted in Rudin's book which
are not adopted in the other book, or vice versa. Ditto for
definitions and notation.
(2) To know what to look up in the other book, you might need a copy of
Rudin's book.
(3) Cross-referencing the two sets of theorems and definitions could
be maddening and involve several books.
(4) Any two books might achieve different levels of generality, both in
their approach and in specific results. Rudin, for example, teaches
one about metric spaces, whereas other books might do everything
in Euclidean space.
It's much better if you can get your hands on a used copy of the book.
Allan Adler
a...@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
****************************************************************************
* *
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT Artificial *
* Intelligence Lab. My actions and comments do not reflect *
* in any way on MIT. Morever, I am nowhere near the Boston *
* metropolitan area. *
* *
****************************************************************************
Lynn Killingbeck
>
> (snip)
>
> (3) Cross-referencing the two sets of theorems and definitions could
> be maddening and involve several books.
> (4) Any two books might achieve different levels of generality, both in
> their approach and in specific results. Rudin, for example, teaches
> one about metric spaces, whereas other books might do everything
> in Euclidean space.
>
> It's much better if you can get your hands on a used copy of the book.
>
> Allan Adler
> a...@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
>
(3) is an interesting reason _not_ to get the book - besides price! In
order to do such cross-referencing, the student will possibly even have
to learn the material rather thoroughly - more so than just reading a
single book. Your reason (4) is one reason why I often buy multiple
books for self-teaching topics of interest to me - price be damned!
Lynn Killingbeck
Gerry Myerson
Philanthrope" <Loo...@inter.net> wrote:
=> ...the cost of photocopying the sections of the book necessary for this
=> class would be less than $15.
Does that include the cost of the fine for duplicating copyrighted materials?
GM
Loomis Philanthrope
John René Lastré <jla...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:37CDB1D1...@excite.com...
> I think Rudin is a little more than a collection of theorems and proofs.
Quite
> a few people think that it is a "classic". $97 is a bit steap for a 300+
page
> book. But then again I've paid $170 for other books.
For comparison, Shakespeare is classic. The complete works of Shakespeare
are available for $19.00 from Amazon.com. Still think we should pay $97 for
a math text because it is "classic"?
Loomis
Loomis Philanthrope
Gerry Myerson <ge...@mpce.mq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:gerry-02099...@abinitio.mpce.mq.edu.au...
On any given day, I am as lawful as the next guy, but when I am consistently
getting ripped off by whoever it is that has decided to sky these prices, I
do not particularly mind breaking their copyright. Furthermore, for the
most part, the book is not written by the people who are reaping the
monetary benefits.
Loomis
Benjamin P. Carter
it that has reached my ISP) is to look for a used copy of 'baby Rudin'.
I agree that it's a good book and that $97 is an outrageous price for it.
I won't recommend any illegal act, but I also won't shed any tears for
revenues lost by the publisher as a result of illegal copying.
A used copy is likely to be an older edition. This may mess up homework
assignments, but it won't seriously affect the value of the book for
future reference.
Used books generally are easier to find than ever before, thanks to the
internet. I usually start my searches for used books at
http://www.abebooks.com/ (The Advanced Book Exchange), which will list
prices and descriptions of used copies of the same book in many different
bookstores.
--
Ben Carter
Dave Rusin
>> By the way, the whole purpose of many math books is to teach "theorems
>> and proofs". Of course that is what the book contains!!!
>
>And why should I pay one particular author for collecting these theorems? I
>am not critisizing the book for being a collection of theorems and proofs, I
>am stating that such a collection should not command the price the bookstore
>expects.
Yeah, and I don't know why people think Shakespeare is so great, either.
All he did was to string together some well-known quotations.
Sheesh! What _would_ you value from a book? I agree, math books are priced
much higher than one would expect, but you're talking about less than
a semester's pizza money being exchanged for one of the best books
available for math majors.
dave
Clive Tooth
>In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
>Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
>My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
>worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
>that surely can be found in the library for free.
Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
Chapter 1
Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank,
and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her
sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, and where
is the use of a book, thought Alice, without pictures or conversations? ...
--
Clive Tooth
http://www.pisquaredoversix.force9.co.uk/
End of document
Pertti Lounesto
> I am wondering if $97 is a price worth paying for a book
> that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
The price is not much per theorem. If the total price is
appalling to you, try to do like this guy, earn $5900 a day,
http://cnnfn.com/1999/09/01/investing/daytrade_dayinlife,
and then your money for the book in less than 10 minutes.
Of course, if it takes you more than 10 minutes to read the
book, you will lose the price of the book by not daytrading.
Loomis Philanthrope
Dave Rusin <ru...@vesuvius.math.niu.edu> wrote in message
news:7ql0u5$88e$1...@gannett.math.niu.edu...
1. You need to cut back on Pizza
2. I do value the Rudin book and never stated that I don't value it. I
still don't think $97 is a fair price to charge.
Loomis
G. A. Edgar
Philanthrope <Loo...@inter.net> wrote:
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
>
> Loomis
I wonder if the instructor found out the price of the book before
selecting it? And if he had known, would it have made a difference?
--
Gerald A. Edgar ed...@math.ohio-state.edu
Department of Mathematics telephone: 614-292-0395 (Office)
The Ohio State University 614-292-4975 (Math. Dept.)
Columbus, OH 43210 614-292-1479 (Dept. Fax)
Loomis Philanthrope
Pertti Lounesto <Pertti....@hit.fi> wrote in message
news:37CE6F50...@hit.fi...
> Loomis Philanthrope wrote:
>
> > I am wondering if $97 is a price worth paying for a book
> > that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
>
> appalling to you, try to do like this guy, earn $5900 a day,
> http://cnnfn.com/1999/09/01/investing/daytrade_dayinlife,
> and then your money for the book in less than 10 minutes.
>
> Of course, if it takes you more than 10 minutes to read the
>
Unless you read the book while the market is closed. Of course, you could
also read the book during a 10 minute period where as luck would have it you
would have lost money day trading and thereby make money by reading the book
thus paying for itself. Of course, you haven't even mentioned the cost and
difficulty of becoming a day trader. Most likely if I tried it I would not
be successful.
Loomis
John René Lastré
conscious effort to remain reasonable. In addition to Wiley's (which I am
seriously considering boycotting), Marcel Dekker's greed seems to have no
bounds. Just to echo Chris's point about where the lion's share of the profits
seem to be going, at the last conference I was at, the sales people for Wiley and
Dekker were the best dressed (or at least most expensively dressed) by far of any
of the publishing houses' representatives.
Chris Hillman wrote:
> <snip>
Doug Norris
>Of course, you could
>also read the book during a 10 minute period where as luck would have it you
>would have lost money day trading and thereby make money by reading the book
>thus paying for itself.
You could also have read the book in a 10-minute span where you would make
far more than average. Remember, $5900/day is an average.
Doug
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Todd Norris (norr...@euclid.colorado.edu) "The Mad Kobold"
Hockey Goaltender Home Page:http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~norrisdt/goalie.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself.
Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words---"mank" and "ind".
What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind."
- Deep Thought, Jack Handey
Pertti Lounesto
> I wonder if the instructor found out the price of the book before
> selecting it? And if he had known, would it have made a difference?
It might make a difference if the author is a friend of the
instructor. But, there is nothing wrong in being friends.
Allan Adler
> A used copy is likely to be an older edition.
According to Amazon.com, the $101 version currently on sale is a reprint
of the 1976 edition.
Don Redmond
Edgar" <ed...@math.ohio-state.edu.nospam> wrote:
> In article <rbgz3.3796$0p4.5...@firenze.visi.net>, Loomis
> Philanthrope <Loo...@inter.net> wrote:
>
> > In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
> >
> > Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
> >
> > My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> > worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> > that surely can be found in the library for free.
> >
> > Loomis
>
> I wonder if the instructor found out the price of the book before
> selecting it? And if he had known, would it have made a difference?
Good question. I was teaching real analysis one semester and not so
unexpectedly decided to use Royden. After school started I found out,
from one of my students, what it costs. I was chagrinned. The moral
of the story is that now I get textbooks from Dover if I can possibly
do so. Of course, this semester I changed from a Dover book that was
a terrible book for the course, but cost $12, to a book that might be
a good text for the course, but costs $90. You just can't win.
Don
Josh Kortbein
: John René Lastré <jla...@excite.com> wrote in message
: news:37CDB1D1...@excite.com...
: > I think Rudin is a little more than a collection of theorems and proofs.
: Quite
: > a few people think that it is a "classic". $97 is a bit steap for a 300+
: page
: > book. But then again I've paid $170 for other books.
: For comparison, Shakespeare is classic. The complete works of Shakespeare
: are available for $19.00 from Amazon.com. Still think we should pay $97 for
: a math text because it is "classic"?
Presumably, you chose math as your field of study. The market as a whole
doesn't value Rudin as much as it does Shakespeare (not surprisingly).
If you don't want to have to pay for more expensive books, maybe you
should be studying something more popular.
Josh
--
Following the tour, Mercury Rev again went their separate ways; its
members found menial jobs, moved in with their parents, or earned
money by participating in medical experiments.
- from the AMG
Josh Kortbein
: > By the way, the whole purpose of many math books is to teach "theorems
: > and proofs". Of course that is what the book contains!!!
: And why should I pay one particular author for collecting these theorems? I
: am not critisizing the book for being a collection of theorems and proofs, I
: am stating that such a collection should not command the price the bookstore
: expects.
Authors also often give different proofs than appear in other sources.
For what it's worth I think I paid about $70 for the book, used.
Kyle R. Hofmann
> Now the bad news: $97 is an absolutely outrageous price for any book!
> Blame the publishing industry, not the author.
I'd go further than that: $97 for the terrible job they did printing and
binding Rudin is ungodly. Whoever decided to maim every copy they print
with such terrible paper and binding should be fired.
--
Kyle R. Hofmann <rhof...@crl.com> | "...during the years between 960 and
1000 there was great activity in the production of homilies ... [ The
Blickling Homilies ] voice the almost universal belief that the world would
end in the year 1000." -- The Concise Cambridge History of English Literature
Robin Chapman
kort...@iastate.edu (Josh Kortbein) wrote:
> Loomis Philanthrope (Loo...@inter.net) wrote:
> : > By the way, the whole purpose of many math books is to teach
"theorems
> : > and proofs". Of course that is what the book contains!!!
>
> : And why should I pay one particular author for collecting these
theorems? I
> : am not critisizing the book for being a collection of theorems and
proofs, I
> : am stating that such a collection should not command the price the
bookstore
> : expects.
>
> Authors also often give different proofs than appear in other sources.
>
> For what it's worth I think I paid about $70 for the book, used.
My copy cost GBP 8.50 (new) in the early 1980s. It was a paperback
McGraw-Hill "International Student Edition". I presume this
means an edition not for sale in the US. Searches at
amazon.co.uk/amazon.com indicate that the only edition presently
available is the overpriced hardback. It's amusing to read the
use comments at Amazon; there's a great divergence of opinion. I
would would give it 5 stars myself.
--
Robin Chapman
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html
"They did not have proper palms at home in Exeter."
Peter Carey, _Oscar and Lucinda_
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Loomis Philanthrope
Josh Kortbein <kort...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:7qmfah$srk$1...@news.iastate.edu...
> Loomis Philanthrope (Loo...@inter.net) wrote:
>
> : John René Lastré <jla...@excite.com> wrote in message
> : news:37CDB1D1...@excite.com...
proofs.
> : Quite
> : > a few people think that it is a "classic". $97 is a bit steap for a
300+
> : page
> : > book. But then again I've paid $170 for other books.
>
> : For comparison, Shakespeare is classic. The complete works of
Shakespeare
> : are available for $19.00 from Amazon.com. Still think we should pay $97
for
> : a math text because it is "classic"?
>
> Presumably, you chose math as your field of study. The market as a whole
> doesn't value Rudin as much as it does Shakespeare (not surprisingly).
> If you don't want to have to pay for more expensive books, maybe you
> should be studying something more popular.
>
>
> Josh
Older editions of the book are available for about $20-$30, sometimes even
less. These are essentially the same book, so why are they so much less?
Because they are no longer used as a college text book and are not being
forced to be bought. The only reason $97 can be charged for this book is
that I *have* to buy it, not because of the content.
Loomis
G. A. Edgar
> Good question. I was teaching real analysis one semester and not so
> unexpectedly decided to use Royden. After school started I found out,
> from one of my students, what it costs. I was chagrinned. The moral
> of the story is that now I get textbooks from Dover if I can possibly
> do so. Of course, this semester I changed from a Dover book that was
> a terrible book for the course, but cost $12, to a book that might be
> a good text for the course, but costs $90. You just can't win.
>
> Don
Last year I used a Dover book (Coddington) for a differential equations
course. A fine book, sells for $9. Perhaps some of the $90 books
would have been better, but not ten times better...
Patrick Fleury
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
>
> Loomis
I went through this a couple of years ago with a Wiley salesperson. (Think
about that phrase for a moment: Wiley salesperson.)
Unsurprisingly, she and her colleagues have a different point of view.
The context was as follows. I was interested in purchasing a paticular book
which, at that time - 1996, cost $110.00. ( I have no idea what it costs now.)
I suggested that a low priced paperback edition would sell more copies. She
snapped back that these were not mass market items and a low priced paperback
would not make back their costs.
The gist of her position was that she and her company believe:
1) they are providing a service to the mathematical community for which they
should be compensated fairly.
2) there are costs involved with producing a book that go beyond the mere
writing and printing stages. There are editors and copywriters and - yes -
salespeople.
3) many of the books they publish do not make money but, instead, lose it.
The money they make from the big sellers (like Rudin) helps defray the costs of
printing a few copies of a small selling book that will soon be remaindered.
4) the used book market cuts into the publishers' bottom line by reselling
lower priced books to students and, therefore, the publishers are forced raise
prices to meet costs.
5) The same can be said for people who xerox books for their own use.
6) faculty members who order an examination copy of a book and then
immediately sell it to the used book people deserve a public whipping.
I think we can all agree with (1) and partially with (2) and (3). Everything
else is up for grabs including the word "fairly" in (1).
I am not an economist and I am not deeply familiar with the bookkeeping
practices of the publishing industry but, it seems to me, there is a lot of
blame to be spread around. Students and faculty should not photocopy entire
books as a matter of principal. (I will admit that I have done that with books
that are no longer in print.) At the same time, publishers have pushed prices
so high that they are just begging to be ripped off. The $110 book I wanted to
buy had about 200 pages. It would have cost about $10 to photocopy. (I didn't
do that by the way.) I think the difference is outrageous.
I think the textbook publishing industry is killing the golden goose. I think
that, soon, authors will put their manuscripts on the web so that you can
download and print them on your or your department's laserjet. (There are a
couple of books like this now.) I also think this is a pity because the costs
will be so low the (1) everybody and his brother can put out a lousy textbook
riddled with errors and (2) the editors and typesetters will be cut out and I
think there is a need for their services.
I also think that classics like Rudin's book will become a thing of the past
because no publisher will take the care that went into the original book.
A couple of years ago, I bought Rudin's book on Functional Analysis for about
$3.00. I was in Mexico City at the time and it was a student version. (I am
not even sure that it was ever published in the US.) I just do not see why
students and parents in the US should subsidize students in other countries.
OK. Rant mode off.
--
======================================================
Patrick J. Fleury, Ph.D. (773)-702-0517
Section of Nephrology W-514A
pfl...@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu
Allan Adler
> Unsurprisingly, she and her colleagues have a different point of view.
From their point of view, they are providing goods and services
in exchange for money. From another point of view, they are
withholding goods and services and holding them for ransom.
> 1) they are providing a service to the mathematical community for which they
> should be compensated fairly.
They only believe in this principle when they are the ones who need to be
fairly compensated.
> I think the textbook publishing industry is killing the golden goose.
Add to your list the fact that if they can get away with not remunerating
an author for his work, they will do it, no matter how broke and desperate
the author is and no matter how long and how hard the author worked to
provide them with the manuscript.
What is missing on the web to provide an adequate and complete set of
free textbooks for an undergraduate curriculum?
Robert Israel
John =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9=20Lastr=E9?= <jla...@excite.com> writes:
> I think Rudin is a little more than a collection of theorems and proofs. Quite
> a few people think that it is a "classic". $97 is a bit steap for a 300+ page
> book. But then again I've paid $170 for other books.
I agree that Rudin is a classic. But $97 is not just steep, it's highway
robbery, considering that
1) production costs are very low (no graphics, not a very good binding,
not even a fancy cover)
2) the text has not changed since the 1970's
3) there is no advertising or publicity cost
4) in total sales over more than 45 years, this must be one of the best-selling
math books at the senior undergraduate level.
Robert Israel isr...@math.ubc.ca
Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2
Kevin R. Vixie
> In my math class this semester we are using the textbook:
>
> Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin
>
> My book store charges $97 for this book. I am wondering if $97 is a price
> worth paying for a book that is for the most part theorems and their proofs
> that surely can be found in the library for free.
>
> Loomis
Why not just boycott all textbook
publishers that charge too much?
That is agree to not consider publishing
anywhere except say Dover, Cambridge,
Publish or Perish (Is this more than just
a publisher of Spivaks stuff?).
I think it is fine for anyone to charge
whatever they want as long as they
are not also doing something to actively
suppress smaller/and or less expensive
publishers. But I am also in favor of
the establishment of very inexpensive
publishing ... a petition could be
circulated to all mathematics depts. in
the country, urging all potential authors
to submit manuscripts to publishers
that charge reasonable prices and/or
submit manuscripts under a legally
binding agreement holding the cost
of the final product to 5.00 per 100 pages
for example. We wouldn't get everybody
but if half of the future authors agreed that
would be significant. The other part of the
drive would have to be the establishment
of an online resource center/ add server that
would advertise low cost texts/ web texts
etc.
I think this would be a fair bit of work
but it would work.
Kevin
--
Kevin R. Vixie
Los Alamos National Laboratory, X-CM, P365
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545 USA
(e) vi...@lanl.gov, (p) (505) 665-9887, (f) (505) 665-4479
Doug Norris
>Does anyone have comments on RACA as an analysis text? I took
>complex analysis but I've forgotten it. I like a fairly compressed
>style. I like Greenberg and Harper's algebraic topology book fairly
>well.
It's an excellent reference; I'm not sure how well I could learn real
analysis the first time with it. My professor used Royden, which was also
hard.
Part of the problem with Real Analysis texts is that it seems to be hard
to learn from them, but once you already know the material, they're all
pretty good.
Josh Kortbein
: My copy cost GBP 8.50 (new) in the early 1980s. It was a paperback
: McGraw-Hill "International Student Edition". I presume this
: means an edition not for sale in the US. Searches at
: amazon.co.uk/amazon.com indicate that the only edition presently
: available is the overpriced hardback. It's amusing to read the
: use comments at Amazon; there's a great divergence of opinion. I
: would would give it 5 stars myself.
Much like the ratings for 'difficult' literature like Pynchon, Joyce,
Wallace, and the like, no doubt. Those who didn't get it or didn't get
through it gave it 1, and the others loved it and gave it 5. :)
There sure wasn't much 'text' in the text but seeing as how I learned more
math from it than any other book, I'm inclined to rate it highly as
well...
Josh Kortbein
: Older editions of the book are available for about $20-$30, sometimes even
: less. These are essentially the same book, so why are they so much less?
: Because they are no longer used as a college text book and are not being
: forced to be bought. The only reason $97 can be charged for this book is
: that I *have* to buy it, not because of the content.
Newer editions may be essentially the same, but there are differences -
corrected errors for the most part, probably. I take it that most people
would prefer to have the more correct text - notably, professors using
the book for their class would like the most correct text possible.
Once these professors use the new edition, the old one is worth less
because it's in less demand.
This means that, while the book is expensive, it's not necessarily
that expensive because you're required to use the book. There could be
other reasons for the book's price being what it is. The fact that it's
a newer edition, and in use as opposed to older editions, is what makes
_older_ editions cheaper, not the newer edition more expensive.
At least, that's one possible interpretation. Less cantankerous, too.
Mixmaster
the Department of Statistics. We went back to Rudin, which is the
text they used when they were students...
> You could also get the real Rudin, "Real and Complex Analysis". It
> surely shares the same conventions. I'd much rather have that than
> the "Principles" book if I were going on in math. And it costs less.
Different subject matter, too. Much more advanced.