Just an observation for discussion: It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come from?! If this is how young people feel today no wonder the USA gets trounced in comparative exam. Maybe there's no need for concern. As Scott Adams points out in the Dilbert principle, much of human advancement has been due to a few intellectual mutations [e.g. Einstein, Newton, Edison] with the rest of the human race going along for the ride and pursuing more important things such as suing McDonalds.
"Chris" <crueg...@capu.net> wrote in message news:76a07486.0212301312.4c4c5f@posting.google.com... > Just an observation for discussion: > It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as > a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* > when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come > from?!
I have often wondered about that... perhaps they had a horrible struggle with math during their school time and they had to go through a period of frustration and fear that they would never reach anything. And now, hey, they are still alive and they have found a nice job and they are successful at it. So they compensate frustration with justified pride. That's what I think I read in people's eyes when they brag about being bad at math and physics... and I think it would be how I would feel...
> If this is how young people feel today no wonder the > USA gets trounced in comparative exam. Maybe there's no need > for concern. As Scott Adams points out in the Dilbert principle, > much of human advancement has been due to a few intellectual > mutations [e.g. Einstein, Newton, Edison] with the rest of the > human race going along for the ride and pursuing more important > things such as suing McDonalds.
Chris wrote: > Just an observation for discussion: > It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as > a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* > when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come > from?! If this is how young people feel today no wonder the > USA gets trounced in comparative exam. Maybe there's no need > for concern. As Scott Adams points out in the Dilbert principle, > much of human advancement has been due to a few intellectual > mutations [e.g. Einstein, Newton, Edison] with the rest of the > human race going along for the ride and pursuing more important > things such as suing McDonalds.
Have you the "Malcolm In The Middle" episode where Malcolm goes from social pariah to babe magnet when his I.Q. sinks to moron level?
In article <76a07486.0212301312.4c4...@posting.google.com>,
Chris <crueg...@capu.net> wrote: >Just an observation for discussion: >It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as >a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* >when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come >from?!
My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is not such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a bit of an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is a bit puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When introduced to a professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no good at reading and writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, "Oh I can't carry a tune"?
Robert Israel isr...@math.ubc.ca Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2
Robert Israel <isr...@math.ubc.ca> wrote: > My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely > common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is > not such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a > bit of an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is > a bit puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When > introduced to a professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no > good at reading and writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, > "Oh I can't carry a tune"?
I think it's part of the general anti-technical mindset in our society that makes people proclaim "I can't program my VCR!" as if it were a badge of honor. Literature and music are not perceived as "geek" disciplines like science and mathematics. Most people seem to want to dissociate themselves from the "white lab coat and pocket protector" image that goes along with the public perception of technical subjects. (With me, it's just the opposite: I actively *cultivate* that image. That's *one* of the reasons I still carry and use slide rules.)
-- Wayne Brown | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbr...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper." "e^(i*pi) = -1" -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"
>My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely >common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is >not such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a >bit of an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is >a bit puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When >introduced to a professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no >good at reading and writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, >"Oh I can't carry a tune"?
Yes. I play guitar as a hobby and that is a very, very common response.
I'm a physics major and, when telling strangers this, they feel compelled to tell me how they took high schools physics and thought it was so hard, or they remind me that there's a "lot of math" for that major, or how they could never do that sort of math. Unfortunately, it leads up to the discussion of what I want to do with the major, which is even more painful especially when the same conversation is repeated ad nausem. Its gotten to the point where if I meet someone on a superficial level (people I will never see again, or people whom I don't really care for) and they ask what I am studying, I tell them business. Its perfect, there is very little follow up and it usually kills the conversation right there. I'm just waiting for someone to say, "Business, eh? So what do you want to do with that" just so I can respond "Fly an airplane. What the fuck do you think?"
Its interesting, I work in retail store where we sell wine. I overheard a conversation a couple of weeks ago between the wine department head (an older lady) and a customer. I forget the exact statistics, but she was saying something about how she was shocked that, _as a percentage_, more people in the United States drink wine than the European countries. She was surprised by this fact, as was the customer, and came to a chillingly incorrect conclusion - "But then I thought, the population of the US is so much greater than those European countries individually, that it would make sense that we would have a higher percentage of wine drinkers." Somewhat ironically, her daughter has a PhD in Mathematics from University of Arizona.
I guess my point is, people who say that they are bad at math often make statements like that. Knowing that you are mathematically capable, instead of shocking you with how little they know or their mathematical ignorance, I think they try to warn you ahead of time, so their mistakes are excused, and since they warned you they won't appear to be such an idiot.
>Robert Israel isr...@math.ubc.ca >Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel >University of British Columbia >Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:59:07 -0800, Robert Israel wrote: > In article <76a07486.0212301312.4c4...@posting.google.com>, Chris > <crueg...@capu.net> wrote: >>Just an observation for discussion: >>It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as a bragging >>right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* when they say "Oh I'm no >>good at math". Where does this come from?!
> My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely > common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is not > such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a bit of > an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is a bit > puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When introduced to a > professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no good at reading and > writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, "Oh I can't carry a tune"?
This is an oft-discussed phenomenon. My theory, to date, is that many people are so scarred by their exposure to mathematics (or what is presented as mathematics) that they have to respond defensively. Some time ago on sci.math, there were some threads discussing a survey of children (from various countries) who were asked to draw a picture of a mathematician. Some drew frightful figures holding whips, machine guns, etc., threateningly over cowering little children.
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Chan-Ho Suh wrote: > On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:59:07 -0800, Robert Israel wrote:
> > In article <76a07486.0212301312.4c4...@posting.google.com>, Chris > > <crueg...@capu.net> wrote: > >>Just an observation for discussion: > >>It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as a bragging > >>right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* when they say "Oh I'm no > >>good at math". Where does this come from?!
> > My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely > > common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is not > > such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a bit of > > an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is a bit > > puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When introduced to a > > professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no good at reading and > > writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, "Oh I can't carry a tune"?
> This is an oft-discussed phenomenon. My theory, to date, is that many > people are so scarred by their exposure to mathematics (or what is > presented as mathematics) that they have to respond defensively. Some > time ago on sci.math, there were some threads discussing a survey of > children (from various countries) who were asked to draw a picture of a > mathematician. Some drew frightful figures holding whips, machine guns, > etc., threateningly over cowering little children.
Re this topic: check out the neat film clip at Professor Edgar's website:
It's from from Dear Brigitte a 1965 movie. A poet (James Stewart) finds that his 8-year-old son (Billy Mumy) is a whiz at calculations. If you don't have quicktime to view and listen to the clip, he provides the pertinent dialog for you.
> Just an observation for discussion: > It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as > a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* > when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come > from?! If this is how young people feel today no wonder the > USA gets trounced in comparative exam.
I don't mean for this to come off as a flame, but I'm curious as to *when* you felt this wasn't the case. The only time I can think of within the lifetime of anyone here would be 1964-1970 or so, when the moon race was in full swing. By the early 1970's things were back to "normal" again. If anything, I think it was a lot worse in the early to mid 1980's than it is now. With computers and the internet so pervasive in society now, and with so many people majoring in computer science (although the CS degree has gotten weaker over the past 20 years, at least with respect to math requirements), I would find it hard to believe that the past decade was worse than the decade before it.
>Subject: Re: math ignorance = status symbol? >From: isr...@math.ubc.ca (Robert Israel) >Date: 12/30/2002 6:59 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <auqq4r$ef...@nntp.itservices.ubc.ca>
>In article <76a07486.0212301312.4c4...@posting.google.com>, >Chris <crueg...@capu.net> wrote: >>Just an observation for discussion: >>It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as >>a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* >>when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come >>from?!
>My impression is that, while "Oh I'm no good at math" is an extremely >common response when someone is introduced to a mathematician, it is >not such a common statement in other circumstances. So it may be a >bit of an exaggeration to call this a status symbol. Still, it is >a bit puzzling why so many people will respond this way. When >introduced to a professor of literature, do they say "Oh I'm no >good at reading and writing"? Or when introduced to a musician, >"Oh I can't carry a tune"?
>Robert Israel isr...@math.ubc.ca >Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel >University of British Columbia >Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2
crueg...@capu.net (Chris) wrote in message <news:76a07486.0212301312.4c4c5f@posting.google.com>... > Just an observation for discussion: > It is just me or do people nowadays treat math ignorance as > a bragging right? It almost seems that people feel *proud* > when they say "Oh I'm no good at math". Where does this come > from?! If this is how young people feel today no wonder the > USA gets trounced in comparative exam. Maybe there's no need > for concern. As Scott Adams points out in the Dilbert principle, > much of human advancement has been due to a few intellectual > mutations [e.g. Einstein, Newton, Edison] with the rest of the > human race going along for the ride and pursuing more important > things such as suing McDonalds.
I notice it is popular with the popular students. I am in AP calc and physics... those that "complain" about being bad at math and physics are the more popular students... I suppose that if I were one of them and I did not have anything to speak of... I would try to spark a conversation on how physics and calc is hurting my GPA. :-P
