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Who owns Sin, Tan, Expand?

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Scott Horne

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Oct 2, 1991, 2:44:04 AM10/2/91
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In article <1991Oct2.0...@agate.berkeley.edu>, fat...@peoplesparc.Berkeley.EDU (Richard Fateman) writes:
[Some sleazy lawyer named Lois W Abraham writes:]

Dear Dr Fateman:

< Brown & Bain represents Wolfram Research, Inc. in the pro-
<tection of its intellectual property rights.

Brown & Bain is desirous of a 35% kickback from Wolfram Research.
This is our reason for writing to you.

<Wolfram Research
<is concerned that you are violating those rights in the Common
<Lisp program you have identified as "L-Mathematica."

Wolfram Research (recently renamed to Tungsten Research) is concerned that
your product upstages theirs.

< Accepting the old saw that imitation is the sincerest form
<of flattery, especially from one who has been a highly vocal
<critic in the past, your imitation of Masthematica(r) appears to
<have gone beyond flattery into more perilous areas of infringe-
<ment and misappropriation. We note in particular the following
<problems:

Realising that we've forgotten everything our sixth-grade English teachers
taught us about dangling participles, especially longish ones like the
present one (hereinafter Exhibit A), your imitation of Mathematica(R)
reminds us of the big fat greenbacks the computer racket has been squeezing
out of software developers like you. We're smacking our chops over the
following problems in particular:

<(1) The name of the program, L-Mathematica, infringes
<on the "Mathematica" registered trademark.

Our client paid the government for indefinite permission to modify an ordinary
English word trivially and claim all rights thereto. (Void where prohibited.)

<The
<name suggests an association with the Mathematica
<system and appropriates the good will that has
<been developed by Wolfram Research in the
<Mathematica program.

Our client's software package gushes over with good will and Tender Loving
Care(TM), which is why we're sending you this letter (in good will, please
understand).

<(Although the treatment
<of the term "Mathematica" is inconsistent
<throughout the Common Lisp program, it appears
<that you are claiming a trademark in the term
<"Mock Mathematica" and some other interpolations.
<If this is incorrect, I would appreciate your
<informing me that we are in error.)

(Of course, we haven't bothered to investigate this matter duly; we're hoping
you'll find this letter threatening and choose to settle out of court.
But if we're wrong, please tell us so that we may avoid costly and
embarrassing litigation.)

<(2) In addition to the confusing use of the trademark
<"Mathematica", you have made a wholesale adoption of
<the Mathematica command names in an attempt to make the
<Common Lisp program look as much like the Mathematica
<system as possible. These names were selected by
<Wolfram Research from a wide range of possiblities and
<their compilation is the original creation of Wolfram
<Research.

2) We have another unfounded accusation for you: You have made a wholesale
adoption of the Mathematica command names in an attempt to make the
Common Lisp program look as much like the Mathematica system as possible,
good will and all. These names were selected by Wolfram Research from
a wide range of possibilities. For instance, for Mathematica's hyperbolic
arctangent function, Wolfram Research seriously considered
`Hyperbolic_Arctangent', `AtAnH', and `bBrAoIwNn(R)'. These and many other
possibilities wre available to you. (This, incidentally, is a fine example
of the good will which the good people of Wolfram Research built into their
product.)

<The command names, among other things, are
<protected by copyright: your use of them infringes the
<copyright.

We claim copyright on these command names, among other things, despite the
fact that many of them have been in common use for hundreds of years and
that most of the rest are ordinary English words which can be found in any
dictionary. (We're investigating the possibility of a copyright on the
use of an initial capital, as done in the Mathematica command names.)

<(Apparently you claim a copyright in the
<Common Lisp program. However, in some instances the
<copyright holder is identified as Richard J. Fateman,
<either individually or in connection with Pak W. Yan [sic]
<and other individuals, while in other instances the
<copyright holder is identified as U.C. Berkeley.
<Again I would appreciate your clarifying the status
<of the copyright claimed.)

We're trying to snatch the copyright away, and we would appreciate your
assistance in this matter.

< It might be useful to discuss the steps that can be taken to
<assure both that your program remains available for use by anyone
<who wishes to use it, and at the same time that the intellectual
<rights that Wolfram Research has in Mathematica(r) are protected.

It might be u$eful to discuss the steps that can be taken to secure a
hefty profit from you so that your program may remain available to anyone
willing to pay the fees which you will doubtless charge once we press
this matter in court.

<Absent such discussions, however, Wolfram Research will have to
<take appropriate action to protect its intellectual property.

Dangling modifiers aside, however, Wolfram Research will try to
remove your rights to your program while also squeezing your
exchequer dry (again, with 35% of the take for Brown & Bain).

< Very truly yours,
< /s/
< Lois W. Abraham

Very shrewdly yours, &c

--Scott

--
Scott Horne ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
ho...@cs.Yale.edu SnailMail: Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520
203 436-1848 Residence: Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
`Democracy' and `dictatorship' both start with a `d'.

Richard Fateman

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Oct 1, 1991, 8:03:43 PM10/1/91
to

From my mail, quoted without comment.
(I tried to send this once before, but I think the mailer was broken
somehow.)

-- Richard Fateman
.........

(letterhead of
Brown & Bain
A partnership associated with a law
corporation
600 Hansen Way
Palo Alto California 94306
Telephone (415) 856 9411)
September 20, 1991


Wolfram Research, Inc.
Mathematica (r)

Dear Dr. Fateman:

Brown & Bain represents Wolfram Research, Inc. in the pro-

tection of its intellectual property rights. Wolfram Research


is concerned that you are violating those rights in the Common
Lisp program you have identified as "L-Mathematica."

Accepting the old saw that imitation is the sincerest form


of flattery, especially from one who has been a highly vocal
critic in the past, your imitation of Masthematica(r) appears to
have gone beyond flattery into more perilous areas of infringe-
ment and misappropriation. We note in particular the following
problems:

(1) The name of the program, L-Mathematica, infringes
on the "Mathematica" registered trademark. The


name suggests an association with the Mathematica
system and appropriates the good will that has
been developed by Wolfram Research in the

Mathematica program. (Although the treatment


of the term "Mathematica" is inconsistent
throughout the Common Lisp program, it appears
that you are claiming a trademark in the term
"Mock Mathematica" and some other interpolations.
If this is incorrect, I would appreciate your
informing me that we are in error.)

(2) In addition to the confusing use of the trademark


"Mathematica", you have made a wholesale adoption of
the Mathematica command names in an attempt to make the
Common Lisp program look as much like the Mathematica
system as possible. These names were selected by
Wolfram Research from a wide range of possiblities and
their compilation is the original creation of Wolfram

Research. The command names, among other things, are


protected by copyright: your use of them infringes the

copyright. (Apparently you claim a copyright in the


Common Lisp program. However, in some instances the
copyright holder is identified as Richard J. Fateman,
either individually or in connection with Pak W. Yan [sic]
and other individuals, while in other instances the
copyright holder is identified as U.C. Berkeley.
Again I would appreciate your clarifying the status
of the copyright claimed.)

It might be useful to discuss the steps that can be taken to
assure both that your program remains available for use by anyone
who wishes to use it, and at the same time that the intellectual
rights that Wolfram Research has in Mathematica(r) are protected.

Absent such discussions, however, Wolfram Research will have to
take appropriate action to protect its intellectual property.

Very truly yours,
/s/
Lois W. Abraham

--
Richard J. Fateman
fat...@cs.berkeley.edu 510 642-1879


--
Richard J. Fateman
fat...@cs.berkeley.edu 510 642-1879

Nenad Antonic

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Oct 2, 1991, 12:39:46 PM10/2/91
to

Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
be copyrighted in this country?

What about:
Principia mathematica / by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russell
(1910)

Just curious.

Nenad Antoni\'c


Carl M. Kadie

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Oct 2, 1991, 12:59:23 PM10/2/91
to

> From my mail, quoted without comment.

[..]


>Brown & Bain
>A partnership associated with a law
>corporation
>600 Hansen Way
>Palo Alto California 94306
>Telephone (415) 856 9411)
> September 20, 1991
>
>
> Wolfram Research, Inc.
> Mathematica (r)
>
>Dear Dr. Fateman:
>
> Brown & Bain represents Wolfram Research, Inc. in the pro-
>tection of its intellectual property rights. Wolfram Research
>is concerned that you are violating those rights in the Common
>Lisp program you have identified as "L-Mathematica."
>

[...]


>(1) The name of the program, L-Mathematica, infringes
>on the "Mathematica" registered trademark. The
>name suggests an association with the Mathematica
>system and appropriates the good will that has
>been developed by Wolfram Research in the

>Mathematica program. [...]

They may have you there. So, change the name.

>(2) In addition to the confusing use of the trademark
>"Mathematica", you have made a wholesale adoption of
>the Mathematica command names in an attempt to make the
>Common Lisp program look as much like the Mathematica
>system as possible. These names were selected by
>Wolfram Research from a wide range of possiblities and
>their compilation is the original creation of Wolfram
>Research. The command names, among other things, are
>protected by copyright: your use of them infringes the
>copyright.

[...]

Their case here is much weaker.

-------------------
From misc.legal.computing Wed Oct 2 11:57:50 1991
Subject: Government sides with Borland against Lotus
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1991 14:10:33 GMT

According to Newsbytes (in clari.nb.govt and clari.nb.top), the
Department of Justice and the Copyright Office say that program menus
are "not considered copyrightable. The Copyright Office eschews the
implication that all material displayed on (computer) screens is
copyrightable."
--------------------


--
Carl Kadie -- ka...@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Erik Reuter

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Oct 2, 1991, 1:54:40 PM10/2/91
to

>(1) The name of the program, L-Mathematica, infringes
>on the "Mathematica" registered trademark.

I think they may have a point here. I don't know a lot about trademarks, but
Mathematica was not a word in common use before they (or Jobs) thought of it and
therefore I think it is only fair that no one else gets to use the name or
a name that contains "Mathematica". However, the word mathematic is in
common use (it is in my dictionary), so I presume anyone is free to use it in
a name. Therefore, I suggest:

Mathematic Able, Mathematic Anon, Mathematic Add, Mathematica Auto, and so
on (you get the idea--I'm sure someone else could come up with a better one)

Or perhaps, Mathomatic (Math-o-matic?), Mathaddica, Mathsolvica, Mathematicomp,
Mathematicable, Mathematicadd.

(If any of these would be covered in any way by any trademark, I am sure
someone will let me know :-)

>(2) In addition to the confusing use of the trademark
>"Mathematica", you have made a wholesale adoption of
>the Mathematica command names in an attempt to make the
>Common Lisp program look as much like the Mathematica
>system as possible. These names were selected by
>Wolfram Research from a wide range of possiblities and
>their compilation is the original creation of Wolfram
>Research.

This seems patently :-) ridiculous to me. How can they prevent someone from
using the command Integrate to tell the computer to integrate something?
I think WRI has even less credibility in saying this than, say, WMS if they
said that no one else could use int for the command to integrate, since in the
case of Mathematica, almost all of the command names are completely spelled
out (commonly used) words.

Scott Horne

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Oct 2, 1991, 4:09:57 PM10/2/91
to
In article <QcuTNGK00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:
<
< Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
<be copyrighted in this country?
<
< What about:
< Principia mathematica / by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russell
<(1910)

Or Newton, for that matter, whose _Principia mathematica_ was published
almost three hundred years ago. Sorry, WRI; we've found "prior art".

Vince Tessier

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Oct 2, 1991, 10:52:03 PM10/2/91
to
na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:

> What about:
> Principia mathematica / by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russell
>(1910)

The contents of a book may be copyrighted; the title itself cannot.
John Varley, speaking at the ConClave science fiction convention some
years past, pointed out that his _Millenium_ was at least the fourth
work by that name, just in the science fiction field.

I suspect the same may be true of a program name vs. its source code,
but the situation is usually described as the (trademarked) name of
a product, rather than a literary or scholarly work.

Does FSF or RMS *own* the name Emacs, or is it just custom and usage?
MicroEmacs and (I suspect) Gosling Emacs quite explicitly say "Hi. We're
not the One True Emacs, but rather a convenient imitation."

Barry Margolin

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Oct 3, 1991, 1:23:57 AM10/3/91
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In article <10...@vela.acs.oakland.edu> vtes...@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Vince Tessier) writes:
>Does FSF or RMS *own* the name Emacs, or is it just custom and usage?

Since the name "Emacs" predates the FSF by nearly a decade, they would have
a hard time trademarking it.

Note the word "trade" in the word "trademark". I suspect that it's only
possible to trademark the name of a commercial product. The editor was
named in the 70's when it was just a local MIT hack. Since MIT and RMS
didn't productize it, they couldn't trademark the name; it quickly became
the generic name for this entire class of editors.

>MicroEmacs and (I suspect) Gosling Emacs quite explicitly say "Hi. We're
>not the One True Emacs, but rather a convenient imitation."

Since "Emacs" is a generic name, they can't use it as the trademarked name
for their products. Adding another word gets around this, since it's the
entire phrase that is trademarked. I don't think this would be possible if
"Emacs" itself were trademarked, though; you'd have a problem similar to
"L-Mathematica". Note, for example, all the convoluted names that Unix
vendors have to come up with for their products; since AT&T holds the
trademark on "Unix", other vendors must call their products "Xenix" and
"A/UX" rather than "Microsoft Unix" and "Macintosh Unix".

By the way, the name of the FSF's editor is "GNU Emacs", not simply
"Emacs". They could trademark this if they wanted to. Instead, however,
they have simply asked nicely that other software authors not use the "GNU"
prefix for their products, to avoid confusion. Compare this with Apple,
which I've heard has a blanket trademark on all software names beginning
with "Mac". There's also a story that IBM trademarked "PL/II", "PL/III",
... through "PL/X", in anticipation of developing these newer languages.

Another interesting trademark tidbit: you can trademark an advertising
slogan. I believe Coca Cola has a trademark on the phrase "The Real
Thing". But this trademark is presumably limited to the soft drink or food
industry, so the FSF could use it in advertisements for GNU Emacs.
--
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.

bar...@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

Barry Margolin

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Oct 3, 1991, 12:06:22 AM10/3/91
to
In article <QcuTNGK00...@andrew.cmu.edu> na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:
> Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
>be copyrighted in this country?

No, but it *can* be trademarked. Just about any term or phrase can be
trademarked.

If I marketed a dishwashing detergent, I could probably call it "Cleans
Dishes Well" and trademark that name. No one else could legally use that
as the name of a detergent.

Note that trademark protection isn't as broad as patents and copyrights. A
trademark's scope is limited to a particular industry; for instance,
there's no conflict between the Vax computer and the Vax vacuum cleaner.
You also can't trademark a term if it's already the generic name for that
which it names; e.g. you couldn't trademark "Computer" as the name for your
computer, although you could probably name your vacuum cleaner "Computer"
and trademark that. Also, if your trademark *becomes* the generic name for
the product your trademark can be taken from you; this happened to
linoleum and aspirin, and Xerox and Band-Aid have been in danger of losing
their trademark status for some time.

If "mathematica" were already a common term for computer programs that
perform symbolic mathematics, Wolfram wouldn't have been able to trademark
it. But as far as I know, it wasn't.

The general idea of trademarks is to allow people to use a concise name for
their product in marketing while avoiding confusion between competing or
similar products. In this case, it's quite likely that someone reading an
ad for L-Mathematica would assume that it's closely related to Mathematica.
Or an unhappy purchaser of L-Mathematica might assume that Mathematica
shares its problems. This is the "good will" that the letter to Fateman
referred to -- Wolfram can be indirectly harmed by problems with
L-Mathematica (of course, this ignores the alternate possibility that if
L-Mathematica is even better than Mathematica, Wolfram could benefit -- but
since Wolfram owns the trademark, he has the choice of ignoring this).

Kenneth J Meltsner

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Oct 3, 1991, 10:08:26 AM10/3/91
to

Trademarks are pretty weird things. They allow a company to do
business and sell products with a given name, and receive protection
against competitors with similar names in the area which they are
doing business. Registered trademarks are similar, but with more
teeth.

So, a hypothetical company called WRI sells a product called
(hypothetically) Mathematica. That's fine -- there's an insurance
company called Amica (another fine Latin word) and I'm sure they've
trademarked that. A hypothetical computer scientist writes a program
that he gives away called L-Mathematica or Mock Mathematica.
Depending on your definition of "doing business," he may be infringing
on WRI's trademark. Now, in this situations, the lawyers usually want
a groveling letter that says something like:

"I certainly acknowledge that Mathematica is a valuable trademark, in
so far as it describes a mostly useful program that WRI makes a lot of
money off of. My programs L-Mathematica/Mock Mathematica are totally
unrelated to WRI's product since they are just parsers and not a
complete symbolic manipulation and calculation system, and I'll make
sure that there's a disclaimer to that effect in the package. Please
call off your dogs."

As to the protection of the language itself, a hypothetical computer
scientist might be in trouble. As stupid as it may seem, judges
actually allow languages like dBase to be copyrighted (although that
case was confused by other issues, like a copyright application that
may have been faulty). This is the reason for some of the lawyers'
stuff at the start of PostScript manuals, where they talk about the
language copyright as well as a copyright on the implementation. Your
best solution for this would be to once again write a mildly groveling
note that says:

"Of course, I understand that the Mathematica language itself is an
incredibly valuable bit of work for WRI, and is protected by WRI's
copyright. I would like permission to create a parser and tools for
manipulating this language in the LISP environment, as well as
permission to freely redistribute these things to others. I will, of
course, put in an appropriate notice that this language as described
in your manuals and textbooks is copyrighted by WRI."

Why do this? Well, most lawyers will let you off the hook (unless
they are incredible dweebs) if you acknowledge that their clients are
the holders of valuable stuff. That's all they usually want: proof
that they have been *actively* defending their client's trademarks and
copyrights. If they can't show that, their client can lose the
trademarks and have their ability to recover from a copyright
infringement limited. It starts to make perverse sense after a while.
They write threatening letters against small-time "violators" so that
they have ammunition against future big-time violators.

By the way, take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm not a lawyer
and I'm not trained to give advise on this subject. A hypothetical
computer scientist would be well-advised to talk to the excellent
lawyers that probably hang around his university licensing office,
especially since that university may be involved with this whole mess
as well.

--
===============================================================================
Ken Meltsner | melt...@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391
GE Research and Development Center | Fax: (518) 387-7495
P.O. Box 8, Room K1/MB207 | Nothing I say should be attributed
Schenectady, NY 12301 | to my employer, and probably vice-versa
=============== Materials Science Division, Gizmonic Institute=================

Joshua D. Guttman

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Oct 3, 1991, 11:01:01 AM10/3/91
to
In article <1991Oct3.0...@cs.yale.edu> horne...@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) writes:

I read about a weird case a few years ago in which the Coca-Cola Company
attempted or threatened legal action against someone whose legal first
(or was it last?) name was `Coca-Cola'. I can't recall the outcome or
what prompted this person's parents to name him after a carbonated beverage
(fine product though it be). Strange.

The story was that a man named Koch (pronounced with a long o and hard ch),
living in NY, got fed up of having his name mispronounced like Mayor Koch's
name. He then legally changed his last name to "Coke-Is-It". Naturally, Coca
Cola sued him.

I'm pretty sure that he ended up winning, on the grounds that a trademark only
covers related uses of the name. For instance, DEC's trademark on VAX doesn't
prevent some (British?) company from marketing a vacuum cleaner under the same
name.

Josh

Scott Horne

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Oct 3, 1991, 2:22:53 AM10/3/91
to
In article <NELSON.91...@sun.clarkson.edu>, nel...@clutx.clarkson.edu (aka NEL...@CLUTX.BITNET) writes:
<
<Are you kidding? I can call my product and/or company "Nenad
<Antoni\'c", and guess what? My lawyer will call your lawyer if
<you try to go into business under that name.

I read about a weird case a few years ago in which the Coca-Cola Company
attempted or threatened legal action against someone whose legal first
(or was it last?) name was `Coca-Cola'. I can't recall the outcome or
what prompted this person's parents to name him after a carbonated beverage
(fine product though it be). Strange.

--Scott

Scott Horne

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Oct 3, 1991, 2:33:41 AM10/3/91
to
In article <1991Oct3.0...@Think.COM>, bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
<
<Compare this with Apple,
<which I've heard has a blanket trademark on all software names beginning
<with "Mac".

Is this true? It seems most unfair. May a Scottish hacker not come out with
"MacDougal's Sup-R-Write 1.0 for the IBM PC"? Or "Machine Language Tutorial"?

Joe Buck

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Oct 3, 1991, 3:00:55 AM10/3/91
to
In article <NELSON.91...@sun.clarkson.edu> nel...@clutx.clarkson.edu (aka NEL...@CLUTX.BITNET) writes:
>In article <QcuTNGK00...@andrew.cmu.edu> na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:
>
> Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
> be copyrighted in this country?
>
>Are you kidding? I can call my product and/or company "Nenad
>Antoni\'c", and guess what? My lawyer will call your lawyer if
>you try to go into business under that name.

The name of a well-established fruit (e.g. "Apple") can be trademarked
(not copyrighted) in this country. In fact, the Beatles' old record
company is suing Apple computer even now for trademark infringement
(at one point, Apple Computer signed an agreement with Apple Records
saying that the former could keep the name "Apple" and would stay out
of the music biz -- but now the Mac is the most popular computer used
by musicians for electronic music, hence the lawsuit).

Rename the program. Ignore the lawyers' yammering about the interfaces
though -- I'd suggest renaming the program and changing nothing else.
They have the trademark. How about calling it "notMathematica"? They
could hardly accuse you of spreading confusion with that name!

--
--
Joe Buck
jb...@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck

Russ Nelson

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Oct 2, 1991, 10:59:58 PM10/2/91
to
In article <QcuTNGK00...@andrew.cmu.edu> na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:

Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
be copyrighted in this country?

Are you kidding? I can call my product and/or company "Nenad


Antoni\'c", and guess what? My lawyer will call your lawyer if
you try to go into business under that name.

Yeah, it's weird that that's possible. Go figure.

--
--russ <nel...@clutx.clarkson.edu> I'm proud to be a humble Quaker.

Dirk Grunwald

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Oct 3, 1991, 12:40:48 PM10/3/91
to

Does anyone know where you can FTP L-Mathematica?

I was an alpha user of Mathematica when I was at the Univ. of
Illinois. I have since become agast at the marketing of WRI. The same
program that is fairly cheap on a mac (with a nice interface) costs
thousands for a decstation (with a crappy interface). Their pricing is
based on the performance of the platform. Bleh.

Also, originally Wolfram said ``mathematica will be cheap enough that
anyone who wants it will be able to afford it''. Maybe the HP
calculator version, but I certainly can't afford it. And he dupped
people into e.g., writing the crappy X interface for almost nothing.
*sigh* And last year, it was found that University equipment had found
its way into the WRI offices. Amazing.

So, I'll support anything that isn't mathematica but has similar
functionality.

Richard Fateman

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 1:20:05 PM10/3/91
to
the program referenced here as Mock mma or (previously) L-Mathematica
can be obtained by anonymous ftp from peoplesparc.berkeley.edu

The file is ~ftp/pub/mma.tar . You will need, however, a common
lisp system. (I used `Allegro Common Lisp' from Franz Inc.)
Also it is far from complete. It is a rough shell
that has only rudimentary (but fast) parsing, display, numeric evaluation,
polynomial/ rational simplification, integration, and some pattern matching.
It is not a substitute for Mathematica (r), Maple (r), etc.
generally, and was never intended
to compete with such commercial systems. This system
can be used for experimentation ... e.g. insert an entirely
different evaluation strategy or an entirely different numeric
system, and re-run your "Mathematica source code" through it.
Or hook it up to your favorite other semantics for solve, integrate,
etc. (e.g. JACAL, Reduce, Macsyma, Maple, ...).

It is difficult or impossible to do these experiments
with the commercial Mathematica. Perhaps WRI wants to make it
illegal to do these experiments, if the system can read
Mathematica source code.

Stephen E. Bacher

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 5:10:00 PM10/3/91
to

>The contents of a book may be copyrighted; the title itself cannot.
>John Varley, speaking at the ConClave science fiction convention some
>years past, pointed out that his _Millenium_ was at least the fourth
>work by that name, just in the science fiction field.

If so, that would be a sad commentary on the state of literacy in our
society. Four books with the same misspelling in the title??!!??

(There was a perfume called "Millen{sic}ium" that was spelled that way
deliberately by the marketers because it looked "more netural" that way.
Aaaargh!!!!!!)

- SEB

Carl M. Kadie

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 2:38:14 PM10/3/91
to
grun...@foobar.colorado.edu (Dirk Grunwald) writes:

[...]


>Also, originally Wolfram said ``mathematica will be cheap enough that
>anyone who wants it will be able to afford it''. Maybe the HP
>calculator version, but I certainly can't afford it. And he dupped
>people into e.g., writing the crappy X interface for almost nothing.
>*sigh* And last year, it was found that University equipment had found
>its way into the WRI offices. Amazing.

[...]

There is now a student version for '386 machines. It costs $175
and does not require (and, in fact, will not use) a math coprocessor.
For info send email to in...@wri.com.

- Carl

George J. Carrette

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 1:58:28 PM10/3/91
to
> Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Well, for one thing I think it was not a good idea
to call the program L-Mathematica, or even Mock Mathematica.
It really is confusing. And it could be implied that your INTENT
was to confuse.

(Compare that with with your name choice Vaxima.
Which was also extremely confusing because many people thought at first that
"developing Vaxima for Unix" was a major new piece of work, as compared
what it was, the 4th port of Macsyma to a new operating system.)

> command names

Symbolics tried this line of attack on Paradigm Associates a few years back.
Actually, they got the lawyers at MIT and ADL to write the letter
and make the outrageous claims. They went even further and wanted to claim
that the use of the macsyma language in the Paradigm Newsletter was a
violation of some kind.

Of course, that was before all the recent lawsuits such as the Lotus
copyright cases and the Ashton Tate stuff.

The Ashton Tate case over a claimed copyright on the DBASE language
would be the closest thing here.

> These names were selected by

> Wolfram Research from a wide range of possiblities ...

Of course that is absurd. Unless by "wide range" of possibilities
they mean the choices available in Macsyma(tm) Reduce(tm) and SMP(tm?),
to name a few.

> ... Absent such discussions, however, Wolfram Research will have to


> take appropriate action to protect its intellectual property.

Maybe you should just tell them that if they don't back off
then you will get the lawyers at MIT,UCB and Symbolics to start filing
a bunch of SOFTWARE PATENT claims on all the unpublished tricks and
algorithms used in these sorts of programs.

Certainly the old gang circa 1970's could be brought together for a weekend
to come up with all manner of possibly extremely irritating time-bombs
for WRI to deal with.

-gjc

Carl M. Kadie

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 1:12:13 PM10/3/91
to
In <23...@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> melt...@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J Meltsner) writes:


[...]


>As to the protection of the language itself, a hypothetical computer
>scientist might be in trouble. As stupid as it may seem, judges
>actually allow languages like dBase to be copyrighted (although that
>case was confused by other issues, like a copyright application that
>may have been faulty). This is the reason for some of the lawyers'
>stuff at the start of PostScript manuals, where they talk about the
>language copyright as well as a copyright on the implementation. Your
>best solution for this would be to once again write a mildly groveling
>note that says:

[...]

I don't think is is settled. Of course, Adobe and WRI *claim* a
copyright on the langague, but that doesn't mean that their claim is
valid. I would think the Copyright Offices recent, reported, support
of Borland against Lotus would support the case that languages can't
be copyrighted.

Dirk Grunwald

unread,
Oct 4, 1991, 1:25:27 AM10/4/91
to

Wonderful. The $175 386 version (which doesn't use a coprocessor,
which means it's slow) can be run on $4000 DECstation-5000/120 if I
buy a $1500 SOFT-PC package from DEC.

I imagine the same version could be compiled on the DECstation and
produce a significantly more useful version for me.

Myself, I'm going to use KCL and L-Mathematica (which should be called
'Principa' or something along those lines).

I have no bone to pick with WRI about Mathematica other than that if
you're going to be sleezy, you should at least be honestly sleezy and
not attempt to have people believe you're going to be nice.

Brinton Cooper

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 10:51:06 PM10/3/91
to
In article <NELSON.91...@sun.clarkson.edu> nel...@clutx.clarkson.edu (aka NEL...@CLUTX.BITNET) writes:
>In article <QcuTNGK00...@andrew.cmu.edu> na...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:
>
> Can a Latin name of a well established field (like Mathematics)
> be copyrighted in this country?
>
>Are you kidding? I can call my product and/or company "Nenad
>Antoni\'c", and guess what? My lawyer will call your lawyer if
>you try to go into business under that name.

It has happened in Baltimore where a woman of Filipino descent, known
for decades as "Sony" ran a restaurant under her "name" for many, many
years. Guess who sued her? It seems that she is permitted to use her
name for private purposes but that it infringes on Sony's (electronics)
right to use it for business purposes.

She fought and lost. The electronics co. picked up the costs of
installing a new sign, perhaps the menus, too, but I'm not sure of the
latter.
--
_Brinton Cooper

Jeffrey P. Golden

unread,
Oct 4, 1991, 2:15:41 PM10/4/91
to
Reply-To: Jeffrey P. Golden <j...@ALLEGHENY.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Emacs (was Re: Who owns Sin, Tan, Expand?)
In-Reply-To: <1991Oct3.0...@cs.yale.edu>

> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1991 06:33:41 GMT
> From: horne...@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne)


>
> In article <1991Oct3.0...@Think.COM>, bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
> <
> <Compare this with Apple,
> <which I've heard has a blanket trademark on all software names beginning
> <with "Mac".
>
> Is this true? It seems most unfair. May a Scottish hacker not come out with
> "MacDougal's Sup-R-Write 1.0 for the IBM PC"? Or "Machine Language Tutorial"?

It would appear to be untrue in that Symbolics, Inc. owns a registered
trademark for "MACSYMA". Unless Barry only meant "trademarks for new
software assigned after a certain date".


Doesn't SMP, another Wolfram product, have a lot of the same names as
Mathematica? Is there some arrangement between WRI and the owners of
SMP concerning these names?


Isn't "Sin, Tan, Expand" owned by a porno tanning anti-dieting salon
in L.A.? Of course, in symbolic math, SIN was the name of Joel Moses'
Symbolic INtegration program, now incorporated into MACSYMA.

It's SIN which enabled all MIT MACSYMAs to do that
integrate(1/sin(x)/sqrt(sin(x)^2-a^2),x) (0<a<1) problem of a week
ago that DOE-MACSYMA can't do. Since Leo Harten has brought us both
DOE-MACSYMA and PARAMACS, he might be able to compare the two to find
out what's going on. The problem does not have to do with MIT versions
as Leo suggested might be the case. MACSYMA does this integral by
letting y=cos(x) , transforming it into
integrate(-1/sqrt(1-y^2-a^2)/(1-y^2),y); .

From: Jeffrey P. Golden <j...@ALLEGHENY.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Organization: Symbolics MACSYMA Division

Thomas Okken

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 10:55:12 PM10/3/91
to
Jeez, what *is* this L-Mathematica anyway? The start of this thread has
not made it to my site, but what I have read really sounds interesting...

- Thomas (tho...@duteca.et.tudelft.nl)

Jim Lick

unread,
Oct 4, 1991, 7:49:58 PM10/4/91
to

Has anyone seen an ad for Mathematica recently? Look down in the
fine print and it says that Mathematica is not associated with..
and then lists a half dozen product and company names with
Mathematica in them. My guess is that their ownership of that
name is at least somewhat diminished by having so many others
with the same or similiar names.

Jim Lick
Work: University of California | Home: 6657 El Colegio #24
Santa Barbara | Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
Dept. of Mechanical Engr. | (805) 968-0189 voice/msg
2311 Engr II Building | (805) 968-1239 data
(805) 893-4113 | (805) 968-2734 fax
j...@ferkel.ucsb.edu |

john gay

unread,
Oct 4, 1991, 4:26:19 PM10/4/91
to
From article <1991Oct3.0...@cs.yale.edu>, by horne...@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne):

>
> I read about a weird case a few years ago in which the Coca-Cola Company
> attempted or threatened legal action against someone whose legal first
> (or was it last?) name was `Coca-Cola'. I can't recall the outcome or
> what prompted this person's parents to name him after a carbonated beverage
> (fine product though it be). Strange.

I believe (unless I am mis-remembering - quite possible) that this involved
Coors (the beer company) and a soft drink maker who's last name was Kuhrs
(or some such spelling, but same pronounciation as Coors). I think that
the family had been making soft drinks for several years under the Kuhrs
name before Coors even thought about brewing beer. Seems like Kuhrs was
in Chicago. I don't know what happened with the lawsuit, but all the
news sources around here (Dallas) gave Coors a lot of bad publicity about
it.


john gay. jg...@digi.lonestar.org

"That's the movies, Ed. Try reality."
short pause
"No, thanks."
- part of a conversation in Northern Exposure

David Demers

unread,
Oct 5, 1991, 3:59:40 PM10/5/91
to

In article <1991Oct2.1...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> eer3...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Erik Reuter) writes:

>>(1) The name of the program, L-Mathematica, infringes
>>on the "Mathematica" registered trademark.

>I think they may have a point here. I don't know a lot about trademarks, but

Not to pick on you personally, Erik, but this is one of the
"glories" of the net, anyone can express opinions regardless
of whether he or she happens to know anything about the subject.

Intellectual property law is well-developed, though as all
common law, is constantly in flux as new cases are decided.
Trademark law is codified in 15 USC Chapter 22, but stems from
equitable considerations. State as well as federal regulations
may apply. The guiding principle is that the owner of the mark
may prevent its use by others to the confusion of the public or
the detriment of the owner.

>Mathematica was not a word in common use before they (or Jobs) thought of it and
>therefore I think it is only fair that no one else gets to use the name or

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Frankly, what YOU think is irrelevant.

>a name that contains "Mathematica". However, the word mathematic is in
>common use (it is in my dictionary),

>so I presume anyone is free to use it in a name.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Again, your presumptions don't count; what counts is the law here.

Dave DeMers

Member, State Bar of California
and
Free Flyers Ultimate Disc Club

--
Dave DeMers ddemers@UCSD dem...@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering C-014 demers%c...@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego ...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Vince Tessier

unread,
Oct 5, 1991, 9:29:34 PM10/5/91
to
GNU Emacs! It's the Real Thing!

Christopher Browne

unread,
Oct 3, 1991, 9:05:13 AM10/3/91
to
In article <1991Oct3.0...@cs.yale.edu> horne...@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) writes:
>I read about a weird case a few years ago in which the Coca-Cola Company
>attempted or threatened legal action against someone whose legal first
>(or was it last?) name was `Coca-Cola'. I can't recall the outcome or
>what prompted this person's parents to name him after a carbonated beverage
>(fine product though it be). Strange.

His name was originally "Koch", and he was tired of having people butcher the
pronunciation of his surname (Kawsh, Kowsh, Kock, ad infinitum) when his
name SHOULD be pronounced the same way as Coke. So he had a name change,
changing his surname to "Koch-is-it" (Sounds like: "Coke-is-it!). The
Coca-Cola Companies were NOT thrilled. I can't recall offhand just WHO
won the case - but Mr. Koch was CERTAINLY successful in communicating to
the world just how HE wanted his name pronounced!

DEFINITELY strange!
--
Christopher Browne
cbbr...@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program

Alan Barclay

unread,
Oct 7, 1991, 6:49:40 AM10/7/91
to
In article <GUTTMAN.91...@malabar.mitre.org> gut...@mitre.org (Joshua D. Guttman) writes:
>
>I'm pretty sure that he ended up winning, on the grounds that a trademark only
>covers related uses of the name. For instance, DEC's trademark on VAX doesn't
>prevent some (British?) company from marketing a vacuum cleaner under the same
>name.
>

This is correct. The VAX cleaner is a bright orange floor standing model, with
many fancy attachments, it's currently being sold with the slogan 'improve
your enviroment, go orange', but a few years ago it was sold as 'Nothing
sucks like a VAX'. No Comment :-)
--
Alan Barclay, iT, Barker Lane, CHESTERFIELD, S40 1DY, Derbys, England
al...@ukpoit.uucp, ..!ukc!ukpoit!alan, FAX:+44 246 214353, VOICE:+44 246 214241
iT - The Information Technology Business | Presume the std disclaimer here
Of The Post Office : In Tune With Technology | as I never said this!

George J. Carrette

unread,
Oct 8, 1991, 10:56:52 AM10/8/91
to
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA
Lines: 22

In article <1991Oct4.0...@colorado.edu>, grun...@partial.colorado.edu (Dirk Grunwald) writes:
> Myself, I'm going to use KCL and L-Mathematica (which should be called
> 'Principa' or something along those lines).

I like that name, Principa. Much more along the lines of the kinds
of clever naming conventions that one would expect from computer
algebra programmers.

I have to state that in all the Macsyma source code the most interesting
naming conventions came from JM, RZ and JPG, and the worst
came from RJF and PAULW.

My personal opinion and no offense taken please!

I had a preference for Principa when LPH and I were investigating names
for the Paradigm product. LPH thought that Principa was "too insider"
and instead ParaMacs seemed to be a pretty good name.

Of course JIM was pretty clever and "insider" in his choice of the
name ALJABR.

-gjc

George J. Carrette

unread,
Oct 8, 1991, 11:02:12 AM10/8/91
to
In article <4tv...@lynx.unm.edu>, j...@spectre.unm.edu (Jeffrey P. Golden) writes:
> Isn't "Sin, Tan, Expand" owned by a porno tanning anti-dieting salon
> in L.A.? Of course, in symbolic math, SIN was the name of Joel Moses'
> Symbolic INtegration program, now incorporated into MACSYMA.

Perhaps. But don't forget about a few other popular PDP-11 macsyma
commands, ?ASS, MEMBER, and PIECE, not to mention SUBSTINPART.

Don Gillies

unread,
Oct 9, 1991, 9:27:42 PM10/9/91
to
Are you sure about Wolfram said? I thought he said, "Mathematica will
be cheap enough to allow me to get-rich-quick off the profits."

Seeing as how Wolfram screwed the hand that fed him (i.e. the
University of Illinois, which sponsored him in his mathematica
pursuits), I would not personally pay one millicent for mathematica.
After paying for Wolfram and his "Center for Complex Systems" where
much of the mathematica development was done, Wolfram (initially)
demanded that the UI pay full price for mathematica for its PC labs.
He also made the outrageous demand that, to get a volume discount, you
must pay $xx for EVERY PC EVER SOLD on campus, WHETHER IT HAS
MATHEMATICA OR NOT. He assumes that every user on campus will
illegally copy the software, even the users that graduated years
earlier and left the campus. He wants to rip off the campus before
they sell even one "student version". The university has sold tens of
thousands of PC's, and his terms would bankrupt the micro sales center.

There are some companies so unethically run that euthanasia and/or
decapitation are the only appropriate courses of action.

Don Gillies - gil...@cs.uiuc.edu - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign


--

gsm...@concour.cs.concordia.ca

unread,
Oct 10, 1991, 9:17:17 PM10/10/91
to
In article <1991Oct10....@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gil...@m.cs.uiuc.edu
(Don Gillies) writes:

>There are some companies so unethically run that euthanasia and/or
>decapitation are the only appropriate courses of action.

A better and more obvious solution is to buy the PC version of Maple V
instead.
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University
gsm...@concour.cs.concordia.ca

Erik Reuter

unread,
Oct 11, 1991, 10:40:06 AM10/11/91
to
gsm...@CONCOUR.CS.CONCORDIA.CA writes:

>In article <1991Oct10....@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gil...@m.cs.uiuc.edu
>(Don Gillies) writes:

>>There are some companies so unethically run that euthanasia and/or
>>decapitation are the only appropriate courses of action.
>
>A better and more obvious solution is to buy the PC version of Maple V
>instead.

Especially since UIUC has a campus wide site license for Maple. Kind of
ironic though...

Luke Sheneman!

unread,
Oct 12, 1991, 6:28:36 PM10/12/91
to

Has anyone ever successfully ported gdb to the apollo 68k family?
Also, has anyone ever ported gcc to the Apollo DN10000 computer? If so,
I need to hear from you. Thanks.



shen...@snake.cs.uidaho.edu
lu...@doc.ee.uidaho.edu

pfen...@uni2a.unige.ch

unread,
Oct 11, 1991, 2:59:06 AM10/11/91
to
In article <1991Oct10....@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gil...@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes:
> Are you sure about Wolfram said? I thought he said, "Mathematica will
> be cheap enough to allow me to get-rich-quick off the profits."
>
> Seeing as how Wolfram screwed the hand that fed him (i.e. the
> University of Illinois, which sponsored him in his mathematica
> pursuits), I would not personally pay one millicent for mathematica.
...
I heard a dispute occured also in 85 or 86 when Wolfram left the Institute for
Advanced Study (Princeton) taking away Sun workstations.

Daniel Pfenniger

Jeff Carroll

unread,
Oct 15, 1991, 8:40:28 PM10/15/91
to
In article <1991Oct4.2...@digi.lonestar.org> jg...@digi.lonestar.org (john gay) writes:
>From article <1991Oct3.0...@cs.yale.edu>, by horne...@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne):
>>
>> I read about a weird case a few years ago in which the Coca-Cola Company
>> attempted or threatened legal action against someone whose legal first
>> (or was it last?) name was `Coca-Cola'. I can't recall the outcome or
>> what prompted this person's parents to name him after a carbonated beverage
>> (fine product though it be). Strange.

At a reunion of my wife's family over the weekend I overheard part of
a conversation about a trip to some part of the world where the speaker hired
a taxi driver whose name was "Magnavox". Apparently it is standard practice
in whatever country this is to name children after consumer products.

On the other hand, I went to high school with a guy whose father
named him after his favorite brand of truck; "Reo".

--
Jeff Carroll car...@ssc-vax.boeing.com

Dave Elliott

unread,
Oct 16, 1991, 6:26:45 PM10/16/91
to
Getting back to mathematics... I know a cab driver in Washington DC,
an amateur mathematician, whose name is Zeno.

David L. Elliott
Dept. of Systems Science and Mathematics
Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130
dell...@CEC2.WUSTL.EDU

kenton yee

unread,
Oct 17, 1991, 9:56:43 AM10/17/91
to
In article <17...@smoke.brl.mil> a...@smoke.brl.mil (Brinton Cooper) writes:
>It has happened in Baltimore where a woman of Filipino descent, known
>for decades as "Sony" ran a restaurant under her "name" for many, many
>years. Guess who sued her? It seems that she is permitted to use her
>name for private purposes but that it infringes on Sony's (electronics)
>right to use it for business purposes.
>She fought and lost. The electronics co. picked up the costs of
>installing a new sign, perhaps the menus, too, but I'm not sure of the
>latter.

what of all these law firms named after people's last names...
What if you share a last name with an already existing firm?

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