Aspirin may inhibit AGE formation
cruiser
------------------------------------------
http://www.legendarypharma.com/glycation.html
Inhibitors of Glycation Crosslinking
The formation of new glycation-induced crosslinks is slowed by several drugs
and natural substances: Aminoguanidine has been studied as an inhibitor of
A.G.E. crosslinks by Alteon Pharmaceuticals, and named Pimagedine. In human
clinical trials, Pimagedine slowed the progression of diabetic kidney
disease and retinopathy. Carnosine (beta-alanyl-L-histidine), a dipeptide
formed naturally in human tissues, is also believed to inhibit the formation
of crosslinks between proteins which have been glycated or carbonylated
[Hipkiss]. Aspirin may also inhibit the formation of pathological A.G.E.
crosslinks. For example, chronic users of aspirin have fewer cataracts
[Bucala].
------------------------------------------
Cruiser
cruiser
http://www.nutri.com/wn/bbc.html
Cruiser
Chris Allen
> ------------------------------------------
> http://www.legendarypharma.com/glycation.html
[cruisersnip]
> Aspirin may also inhibit the formation of pathological A.G.E.
> crosslinks. For example, chronic users of aspirin have fewer cataracts
> [Bucala].
> ------------------------------------------
Aspirin was tested in vitro for AGE inhibition along with 33 other
chemicals (Adv Perit Dial 2001;17:66-70 http://www.advancesinpd.com/)
and the results were posted to sci.life-extension on Sept. 19, 2001:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=698c89aa.0109192248.bfce525%40posting.google.com&rnum=31&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:sci.life-extension%2Bauthor:callen%2540efn.org%26hl%3Den%26start%3D30%26sa%3DN
-Chris
cruiser
Thanks for the reference. It is always good to see some hard numbers
associated with the effect.
Suppression rate for each tested chemical.
Chemical
N-Phenacylthiazolium bromide 88 (ALT-711)
Aminoguanidine HCl 68
Glutathione 56
N-Acetylcysteine 60
Acetylsalicylic acid 47 (Aspirin)
Sodium bisulfite 51 (additives to food or drink)
Sodium sulfite 40 (additives to food or drink)
The real surprise for me is the food additives. I will be looking for foods
that contain these chemicals.
I notice that L-Carnosine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, vitamin B1, and vitamin B6
were not tested.
Cruiser
"Chris Allen" <cal...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:698c89aa.02021...@posting.google.com...
cruiser
http://www.bawarchi.com/health/chemical-food2.html
Sodium Bisulfite / metasufite / Sulfur dioxide: They are used in bottled
lemon juice, wine, dried apples, and dehydrated potatoes. Some people are
allergic to sulfites
Cruiser
"cruiser" <tg.cr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:%Uta8.20031$8s4.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
David
Interesting information. But does aspirin work as an AGE-inhibitor at a
normal human dose or 1000 times that much? And do some of those chemicals
like NAC only work for this purpose because they are antioxidants? I
haven't actually read the study.
DB
Max Watt
> cruiser wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > Thanks for the reference. It is always good to see some hard numbers
> > associated with the effect.
> >
> > Suppression rate for each tested chemical.
> >
What isn't shown (ore even addressed) is where in the AGE-formation
process the substance is active--Schiff base formation, glycosylation,
protein-glucose cross linking. It seems likely that a mixture of
different inhibitors and cross-link breakers would be more effective
in vivo than any single substance.
cruiser
"Max Watt" <maxwa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:870a5d01.02021...@posting.google.com...
> David <wire...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<Mnya8.3183$gQ7.218...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> What isn't shown (ore even addressed) is where in the AGE-formation
> process the substance is active--Schiff base formation, glycosylation,
> protein-glucose cross linking. It seems likely that a mixture of
> different inhibitors and cross-link breakers would be more effective
> in vivo than any single substance.
>
Yes, I am currently taking L-Carnosine, L-Lysine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, and
aspirin daily to prevent glycation.
Free L-Lysine appears to work by being very reactive with free glucose, so
that it glycates and prevents the free glucose from glycating the body's
resident proteins. It seems that it acts as a free glucose scavenger.
I have read that Acetyl-L-Carnitine helps prevent glycation but have not
found anything credible to base this on. I take it as part of Tyler Parr's
formula, so if it does help prevent glycation, that is a bonus.
L-Carnosine is a well documented glycation blocker.
Aspirin I have just started.
Cruiser
Thomas Carter
> "Max Watt" <maxwa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:870a5d01.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > David <wire...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:<Mnya8.3183$gQ7.218...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
>
> > What isn't shown (ore even addressed) is where in the AGE-formation
> > process the substance is active--Schiff base formation, glycosylation,
> > protein-glucose cross linking. It seems likely that a mixture of
> > different inhibitors and cross-link breakers would be more effective
> > in vivo than any single substance.
> >
>
> Yes, I am currently taking L-Carnosine, L-Lysine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, and
> aspirin daily to prevent glycation.
>
> Free L-Lysine appears to work by being very reactive with free glucose, so
> that it glycates and prevents the free glucose from glycating the body's
> resident proteins. It seems that it acts as a free glucose scavenger.
Hi Cruiser,
I don't see how it could be. There's way too much glucose and not
enough Lysine. To the extent that anything scavages glucose it would
reduce the glucose blood levels and show up on tests, thus being
widely known. It would also tend to make you hungry so you would eat
more. (or lose weight) I do agree that it is mildly helpful however.
And it does seem to be a commonly held belief. See PMID: 11244310
Maybe Lysine escorts the glucose thru the blood and splits off when
the glucose is absorbed into the cell. Anybody know?
Thomas
Tom Matthews
> "Max Watt" <maxwa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:870a5d01.02021...@posting.google.com...
>
>>David <wire...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>
> news:<Mnya8.3183$gQ7.218...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>>What isn't shown (ore even addressed) is where in the AGE-formation
>>process the substance is active--Schiff base formation, glycosylation,
>>protein-glucose cross linking. It seems likely that a mixture of
>>different inhibitors and cross-link breakers would be more effective
>>in vivo than any single substance.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, I am currently taking L-Carnosine, L-Lysine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, and
> aspirin daily to prevent glycation.
>
> Free L-Lysine appears to work by being very reactive with free glucose, so
> that it glycates and prevents the free glucose from glycating the body's
> resident proteins. It seems that it acts as a free glucose scavenger.
>
> I have read that Acetyl-L-Carnitine helps prevent glycation but have not
> found anything credible to base this on. I take it as part of Tyler Parr's
> formula, so if it does help prevent glycation, that is a bonus.
I have not seen any evidence that ALC is a glycation inhibitor except as
an antioxidant or in the eye lens.
Exp Eye Res 1999 Jul;69(1):109-15
Acetyl- L -carnitine decreases glycation of lens proteins: in vitro studies.
Swamy-Mruthinti S, Carter AL.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Medical College of
Georgia, Augusta, GA, 30912-2100, USA.
Although the role of carnitine system in the ocular tissues is not
clearly understood, earlier studies showed that lenticular levels of L
-carnitine were the highest among ocular tissues and there was a
dramatic depletion of lenticular L -carnitine and acetyl- L -carnitine
in streptozotocin-diabetic rats. As protein glycation has been
implicated in the development of several diabetic complications
including cataracts, this study was initiated to show the possible
effects of L -carnitine and acetyl- L -carnitine on the glycation and
advanced glycation (AGEs) of lens proteins. Calf lens soluble fraction
(crystallins) was incubated with 50 m m glucose (containing14C glucose)
with or without 5-50 m ml -carnitine, 5-50 m m acetyl- L -carnitine and
5-50 m m acetyl salicylic acid, for 15 days. The results show that while
L -carnitine did not have any effect on in vitro glycation of lens
crystallins, acetyl- L -carnitine and acetyl salicylic acid decreased
crystallin glycation by 42% and 63%, respectively-this decrease was
concentration dependent. Glycated crystallins were separated on HPLC
which showed that the rate of glycation is in the following order:
alpha>beta>gamma. Interestingly, acetyl- L -carnitine inhibited
glycation of alpha crystallin more than other crystallins. In vitro
incubations with [3H-acetyl] acetyl- L -carnitine showed that acetyl- L
-carnitine acetylates lens crystallins (non-enzymatically) and alpha
crystallin is the major acetylated protein. Furthermore, there was a 70%
reduction in anti-AGE antibody reactivity when 50 m m acetyl- L
-carnitine was included in the incubation of lens crystallins and 10 m m
erythrose, suggesting that inhibition of glycation by acetyl- L
-carnitine also affected the generation of AGEs. This in vitro study
shows, for the first time, that acetyl- L -carnitine could acetylate
potential glycation sites of lens crystallins, and protect them from
glycation-mediated protein damage. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
PMID: 10375455
Other strong glycation inhibitors which you are missing are:
pyridoxamine
thiamine pyrophosphate
aminoguanidine
metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
> L-Carnosine is a well documented glycation blocker.
>
> Aspirin I have just started.
And it is a good general anti-inflammatory and anti-coagulant.
--Tom Matthews
MoreLife for us all - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for More Life in quantity & quality
Tom Matthews
> "cruiser" <tg.cr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<zIQa8.20792$NP4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>
>>"Max Watt" <maxwa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:870a5d01.02021...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>David <wire...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>news:<Mnya8.3183$gQ7.218...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
>>
>>
>>>What isn't shown (ore even addressed) is where in the AGE-formation
>>>process the substance is active--Schiff base formation, glycosylation,
>>>protein-glucose cross linking. It seems likely that a mixture of
>>>different inhibitors and cross-link breakers would be more effective
>>>in vivo than any single substance.
>>>
>>>
>>Yes, I am currently taking L-Carnosine, L-Lysine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, and
>>aspirin daily to prevent glycation.
>>
>>Free L-Lysine appears to work by being very reactive with free glucose, so
>>that it glycates and prevents the free glucose from glycating the body's
>>resident proteins. It seems that it acts as a free glucose scavenger.
>>
>
> Hi Cruiser,
> I don't see how it could be. There's way too much glucose and not
> enough Lysine.
As I have explained before, because it is quickly transported into cells
and transformed into fat or metabolized (transformed to CO2 and H2O plus
energy), the average glucose content of the blood and cytosol is not
highly related to the amount ingested during a day. So a much smaller
intake of lysine might have some significant effect without the argument
below necessarily being valid. It would probably most efficient to take
the lysine after the postprandial glucose surge has leveled off.
> To the extent that anything scavages glucose it would
> reduce the glucose blood levels and show up on tests, thus being
> widely known. It would also tend to make you hungry so you would eat
> more. (or lose weight) I do agree that it is mildly helpful however.
> And it does seem to be a commonly held belief. See PMID: 11244310
> Maybe Lysine escorts the glucose thru the blood and splits off when
> the glucose is absorbed into the cell. Anybody know?
The 0.1% given in that experiment would amount to a few grams daily for
a human, which could become as much as 4-5 mM in plasma. The two older
abstracts below add additional support to the anti-glycation benefits of
lysine, but note that from the second, D-lysine may be even better than
the L- form because it is not removed from plasma for protein building.
Diabetologia 1991 Jan;34(1):12-6
Alterations of biochemical and biomechanical properties of rat tail
tendons caused by non-enzymatic glycation and their inhibition by
dibasic amino acids arginine and lysine.
Menzel EJ, Reihsner R.
Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Gerontology, Institute of Immunology,
University of Vienna, Austria.
The influence of dibasic amino acids arginine and lysine on
non-enzymatic glycation of tail tendon fibers from old (900-day-old) and
young (61-day-old) rats was investigated in vitro. The biomechanical
changes in tendon fibers of young rats after an incubation interval of 7
or 14 days in a glucose solution were abolished by the addition of
arginine or lysine (molar ratio amino acid:glucose 1:10). Glucose
incorporation into rat tail tendon fibers as well as Amadori product
formation was decreased significantly in the presence of the amino
acids. The inhibitory effect of arginine was further confirmed by
measurement of the amount of ketoamine formed during the glycation
reaction using soluble albumin as a protein target. The effective
inhibition of non-enzymatic glycation by arginine or lysine suggests
their potential use in vivo as a means of controlling protein
over-glycation.
PMID: 1905245
Clin Chem 1989 Mar;35(3):384-7
Comment in:
Clin Chem. 1989 Nov;35(11):2254.
D-lysine effectively decreases the non-enzymic glycation of proteins in
vitro.
Sensi M, Pricci F, De Rossi MG, Morano S, Di Marlo U.
Department of Endocrinology, University La Sapienza, Rome, Italy.
Excessive non-enzymic glycation of proteins alters their physicochemical
properties, with possible pathological effects. We investigated the in
vitro inhibition of protein glycation by D-lysine--an isomer not
incorporated into mammalian proteins but possessing the same chemical
characteristics as L-lysine. Glucose incorporation was studied as
follows: (a) human albumin, IgG, collagen, and isolated glomerular
basement membrane were incubated for 20 days with D-glucose (5.0, 10.0,
and 20.0 mmol/L) in the presence of D-lysine at 1/10 the sugar
concentration; (b) albumin was incubated in similar glucose
concentrations but with a constant amount (2.0 mmol/L) of D-lysine; (c)
albumin and IgG were incubated for 10 days in buffer containing glucose
(10 mmol/L) and increasing concentrations of D-lysine (0.25, 0.5, 1.0,
2.0, and 4.0 mmol/L); (d) inhibition specificity was tested by treating
albumin as in c but with glycerol present rather than D-lysine. In
addition, we measured ketoamine after incubating albumin (50 g/L) in 10
mmol/L glucose for 10 days in the presence of D-lysine (0.25, 0.5, 1.0,
and 2.0 mmol/L). The results show that (a) the amount of glucose bound
to the four proteins was significantly (P less than 0.05) decreased in
the presence of D-lysine at the higher concentrations of glucose; (b)
the lower the glucose concentration, the higher was the inhibitory
effect of D-lysine; (c) the inhibition of glucose incorporation into
proteins correlated directly with the concentration of D-lysine; (d) no
inhibition was observed with glycerol. Ketoamine decreased with increase
in D-lysine (P less than 0.01). The effective diminution of
non-enzymatic glycation by D-lysine highlights its potential use in vivo.
PMID: 2493343
OTOH, I am somewhat concerned by this approach because of the following
study which found that Maillard reaction products of arginine and lysine
are mutagenic. How much negative weight wrt human in vivo considerations
should be placed on this study, I do not know. Perhaps the use of
sufficient amounts of antioxidants is enough to fully neutralize any
potential harm.
Mutat Res 1991 Jan;254(1):65-9
Mutagenicity of Maillard reaction products from D-glucose-amino acid
mixtures and possible roles of active oxygens in the mutagenicity.
Kim SB, Kim IS, Yeum DM, Park YH.
Department of Food Science and Technology, National Fisheries University
of Pusan, South Korea.
The mutagenicity for Salmonella typhimurium TA100 without S9 mix of
Maillard reaction products (MRP) obtained from equimolar amounts of
glucose and amino acids under different pHs was investigated. MRP
derived from arginine and lysine exhibited the strongest mutagenicity,
and weaker mutagenicity was shown by the mixtures with alanine, serine,
threonine and monosodium glutamate. MRP from proline and cysteine had no
detectable mutagenicity. Furthermore, glucose-arginine and
glucose-lysine reaction mixtures, which presented a marked mutagenicity,
showed pH- and browning intensity-dependent expression of their
mutagenic activities. The mutagenicity of MRP, especially
glucose-arginine and glucose-lysine mixtures, was significantly
suppressed by active oxygen scavengers such as cysteine, mannitol,
alpha-tocopherol, catalase and superoxide dismutase (SOD) and reducing
agents such as sodium bisulfite and glutathione. Among these
desmutagenic factors tested, cysteine, catalase, sodium bisulfite
and glutathione had higher desmutagenic activities than the others.
Accordingly, it is assumed that the mutagenicity of MRP is due to the
direct action of low-molecular-weight compounds such as carbonyls and
heterocyclics produced by the Maillard reaction and is enhanced by
active oxygens, especially singlet oxygen and hydrogen peroxide derived
from their autoxidation.
PMID: 1986274
cruiser
"Tom Matthews" <t...@morelife.org> wrote in message
news:3C6C9B4F...@morelife.org...
> cruiser wrote:
>
>
> Other strong glycation inhibitors which you are missing are:
> pyridoxamine
> thiamine pyrophosphate
> aminoguanidine
> metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
> acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
>
Yes, I am aware of other glycation blockers, but am also concerned about
cost. The cost of taking many supplements is quite high, when considered
over a year. I am trying to get the most bang for my buck. Aspirin is
inexpensive. L-Lysine and L-carnosine have other benefits, which I want as
well as blocking glycation. So, for my expense I get more than a glycation
blocker.
I actually do take 100mg thiamin daily, in a vitamin B complex, which also
contains 100mg vitamin B6.
So the list of glycation blockers I am not taking is reduced to:
>aminoguanidine
>metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
> acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
Cruiser
Dave B.
> So the list of glycation blockers I am not taking is reduced to:
>
>>aminoguanidine
>>metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
>> acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
>
> Cruiser
Aminoguanidine and metformin are relatively inexpensive. I was just
thinking about ordering them from IAS. About 50 cents/day for each.
DB
Michael
> >> > ------------------------------------------
> >> > http://www.legendarypharma.com/glycation.html
> [cruisersnip]
> >> > Aspirin may also inhibit the formation of pathological A.G.E.
> >> > crosslinks. For example, chronic users of aspirin have fewer cataracts
> >> > [Bucala].
> >> > ------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Aspirin was tested in vitro for AGE inhibition along with 33 other
> >> chemicals (Adv Perit Dial 2001;17:66-70 http://www.advancesinpd.com/)
> >> and the results were posted to sci.life-extension on Sept. 19, 2001:
> >>
> >
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=698c89aa.0109192248.bfce525%40
> >
> posting.google.com&rnum=31&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:sci.life-extension%2Baut
> > hor:callen%2540efn.org%26hl%3Den%26start%3D30%26sa%3DN
> >>
>
> Interesting information. But does aspirin work as an AGE-inhibitor at a
> normal human dose or 1000 times that much?
Apparently, not the former. The most well-documented animal evidence
for an in vivo anti-glycation effect of aspirin is in cataract.
Numerous rodent studies show this (hunt PubMed), and some informal
early observations & case-control studies seemed to support such a
connection in humans, yet (with one exception(1)) more recent &
rigorous epidemiology ((2-4), & apparently (5)), as well as
observational studies within controlled trials (6,7), indicate no such
effect in otherwise healthy humans -- even at doses ranging as high as
1200 mg/day (7). Diabetics also don't seem to benefit (8,9).
Aspirin apparently does not affect diabetes (and presumably AGE-)
related kidney damage, nor does it exert any robust effect on the
development of diabetic retinopathy, in dogs (10).
At the same time, counterintuitively, a meta-analysis of a
meta-analysis of 24 randomised controlled trials, including 66 000
participants (11), indicates that taking LOW-DOSE aspirin still gives
the same incidence of GI haemmorhage (~doubling of risk).
Since aminoguanidine has been brought up again in the thread, I'll
also post this link to the results of the (STILL not properly
published!) controlled trials of this drug, which (IMO) show pretty
clearly that no one who doesn't have Type I diabetes should be taking
it: from available evidence, it's pretty toxic, even at doses which
are not therapeutically effective.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=69779556.0106251914.2f6e7750%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=69779556.0106301924.69da26a1%40posting.google.com
The best known defense against glycation is, of course, CR ;).
Assorted supplements may also help -- but most have little in vivo
evidence to back 'em.
-Michael
1. Klein BE, Klein R, Lee KE, Danforth LG.
Drug use and five-year incidence of age-related cataracts: The Beaver
Dam Eye
Study.
Ophthalmology. 2001 Sep;108(9):1670-4.
PMID: 11535471
2: Sharma YR, Vajpayee RB, Bhatnagar R, Mohan M, Azad RV, Kumar M,
Nath R.
Systemic aspirin and systemic vitamin E in senile cataracts: cataract
V.
Indian J Ophthalmol. 1989 Jul-Sep;37(3):134-41.
PMID: 2632449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: West SK, Munoz BE, Newland HS, Emmett EA, Taylor HR.
Lack of evidence for aspirin use and prevention of cataracts.
Arch Ophthalmol. 1987 Sep;105(9):1229-31.
PMID: 3632441 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Hankinson SE, Seddon JM, Colditz GA, Stampfer MJ, Rosner B,
Speizer FE,
Willett WC.
A prospective study of aspirin use and cataract extraction in women.
Arch Ophthalmol. 1993 Apr;111(4):503-8.
PMID: 8470984 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Paganini-Hill A, Chao A, Ross RK, Henderson BE.
Aspirin use and chronic diseases: a cohort study of the elderly.
BMJ. 1989 Nov 18;299(6710):1247-50.
PMID: 2513898 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6. Christen WG, Ajani UA, Schaumberg DA, Glynn RJ, Manson JE,
Hennekens CH.
Aspirin use and risk of cataract in posttrial follow-up of Physicians'
Health
Study I.
Arch Ophthalmol. 2001 Mar;119(3):405-12.
PMID: 11231774 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: [No authors listed]
Does aspirin affect the rate of cataract formation? Cross-sectional
results
during a randomised double-blind placebo controlled trial to prevent
serious
vascular events. UK-TIA Study Group.
Br J Ophthalmol. 1992 May;76(5):259-61.
PMID: 1390504
8. Chew EY, Williams GA, Burton TC, Barton FB, Remaley NA, Ferris FL
3rd.
Aspirin effects on the development of cataracts in patients with
diabetes
mellitus. Early treatment diabetic retinopathy study report 16.
Arch Ophthalmol. 1992 Mar;110(3):339-42.
PMID: 1543449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9: Klein BE, Klein R, Moss SE.
Is aspirin use associated with lower rates of cataracts in diabetic
individuals?
Diabetes Care. 1987 Jul-Aug;10(4):495-9.
PMID: 3622207
10. Kern TS, Engerman RL.
Pharmacological inhibition of diabetic retinopathy: aminoguanidine and
aspirin.
Diabetes. 2001 Jul;50(7):1636-42.
PMID: 11423486
11. Derry S, Loke YK.
Risk of gastrointestinal haemorrhage with long term use of aspirin:
meta-analysis.
BMJ. 2000 Nov 11;321(7270):1183-7.
PMID: 11073508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/321/7270/1183?view=full&pmid=11073508
--
The terror attacks are explained -- but not justified -- by terror
created by US government foreign policy. From the cause, discern the
cure.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0927/p1s1-wogi.htm
http://www.zmag.org/shalomhate.htm
http://www.public-i.org/excerpts_01_091301.htm
Tom Matthews
> "Tom Matthews" <t...@morelife.org> wrote in message
> news:3C6C9B4F...@morelife.org...
>
>>cruiser wrote:
>>
>>
>>Other strong glycation inhibitors which you are missing are:
>>pyridoxamine
>>thiamine pyrophosphate
>>aminoguanidine
>>metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
>>acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
>>
>>
>
> Yes, I am aware of other glycation blockers, but am also concerned about
> cost. The cost of taking many supplements is quite high, when considered
> over a year. I am trying to get the most bang for my buck. Aspirin is
> inexpensive. L-Lysine and L-carnosine have other benefits, which I want as
> well as blocking glycation. So, for my expense I get more than a glycation
> blocker.
>
> I actually do take 100mg thiamin daily, in a vitamin B complex, which also
> contains 100mg vitamin B6.
I am not insensitive the cost issues, but the B6 and B1 in B complex
products are pyridoxine and thiamine which are not nearly as effective a
glycation inhibitor as is pyridoxamine and thiamin pyrophosphate.
> So the list of glycation blockers I am not taking is reduced to:
>
>
>>aminoguanidine
>>metformin (also reduces fasting blood glucose and insulin resistance)
>>acetyl-l-cysteine (also excellent for the liver)
IMO, no serious life extensionist should go without taking
N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC).
cruiser
> The best known defense against glycation is, of course, CR ;).
I do that too.
Cruiser
Dave B.
And you don't find that the lack of enjoyment from food negatively affects
your mental health?
Tom Matthews
One can still have plenty of enjoyment of food and yet be on CR.
It is simply a matter of training your "enjoyments" to more healthy food
choices.
See http://morelife.org/personal/personal_health/ and then click on "Our Ways with Food"
mark doran
I've spent a few weeks now 'trying out' a sort of entry-level CR by just
skipping food on Tuesdays and Thursdays (and trying not to binge on
Wednesdays and Fridays...). D'ya have any thoughts about this kind of thing
that you wouldn't mind sharing? You do seem jolly well-informed about all
this.
Thanks in advance.
Mark D.
cruiser
"Dave B." <wire...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:1hxb8.200$Qc1.25...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
Huh!. I enjoy food plenty. It's the garbage people put in their mouths that
I don't enjoy.
I find it very easy to avoid, donuts, granola bars, other candy bars,
candies, muffins, other cakes, pie, cookies, chocolate, jam, syrup, and so
on. This stuff is pure garbage. It is all fat and sugar with very little
nutritional value. The form of CR, which I follow is to eat foods in
moderation,which are high in nutrition and low in fat and sugar. I avoid
sugar like the plague. I use artificial sweetener in my coffee and tea, and
I drink diet cola's. That is about as indulgent as I get.
Frankly, I eat to live. I don't live to eat.
Once you get used to eating good food, that other garbage is disgusting.
There is not pleasure in it. You actually enjoy healthy food more. For me
the best part of a meal is a well prepared main course. I don't bother with
dessert. Doesn't even interest me.
I don't count my calories, I just am always mindful of the kind and quantity
of food I am eating.
Cruiser
Alan Pollock
I substitute music for much of the food I used to eat. But I try to stay away
from too much Opera. Nex
Tom Matthews
Actually, Walford prefers to do his CR by intermittent feeding just as
you are doing, and research with mice seems to prove that it is just as
beneficial as cutting calories daily. Personally, I could never get used
to it. I just got too uncomfortable on those fasting days.
My method was basically to keep the volume the same, but to drastically
decrease the high carb foods (sugar, bread, grains, pasta, root
vegetables) in favor of bulky but low cal foods, mostly vegetables. I am
a person who can be greatly satisfied by a very small portion of a
delectable. Even when I was a child, I would eat only half a chocolate
and save the other half for another day. Or be content with only one or
two strawberries instead of a dozen. I learned early that the most
enjoyment of any food comes in the first few bites and the rest is of
decreasing enjoyment. Therefore to maximize food enjoyment (and I
certainly do recognize that food is an important source of pleasure) one
is best to eat in small portions only. So I still occasionally eat all
the things which I ever liked, but only rarely and then in very small
amounts. For example, when I eat at a restaurant (once every week or
two) I often do have dessert. But I mostly I share a dessert with my
wife and even then we often take half home to eat another day. I
generally also try to pick fruity desserts which may have some food
value in addition to the inevitable sugar and pastry.
I think where most people go wrong with CR is in trying to become too
ascetic and rigorously strict with themselves. There is a fine line
between overall life increasing benefit and flagellating self-denial.
It is important to develop a healthy, realistic and positive sense of
life so that the position of that line can be happily set to a healthful
level of caloric intake.
mark doran
Thanks for the thoughts, Tom. The reason I opted for intermittent fasting
was that I could be pretty sure that I was cutting back calorie intake by
2/7: I couldn't think of any easy way of calculating the totals otherwise.
But is a cut of 2/7 really enough to put a human in 'effective' CR
territory? Walford clearly thinks so, from what you say; but I have been
worrying about how I could know - and there was a CR chap on UK TV the other
day who seemed to be *really* cutting back... Is there an easy test for any
particular bodily substance that it might be worth doing? Are there
immediate physical signs that it's doing something? (I don't seem to have
lost any weight; but there wasn't too much to start with...).
DB
> Tom,
>
> I've spent a few weeks now 'trying out' a sort of entry-level CR
by just
> skipping food on Tuesdays and Thursdays (and trying not to binge on
> Wednesdays and Fridays...).
That will never work. It will just make you mentally unstable.
mark doran
> > I've spent a few weeks now 'trying out' a sort of entry-level CR
> > by just skipping food on Tuesdays and Thursdays (and trying not to binge
on
> > Wednesdays and Fridays...).
>
> That will never work. It will just make you mentally unstable.
Fascinating information. Care to provide a reason *why* it will cause such
instability? I think it's kinda expected round here...
M.
DB
Based on common sense and experience in the real world, something
scientists tend to disregard. Not eating for a day puts most people in a
really bad mood. You can't just eliminate a source of pleasure. The desire
remains and builds up until it explodes, resulting in binging or anger or
worse.
DB
Sorry if I've come off as a bit of a fanatical dick. Trying to work on
that. I think part of it is the impersonal and anonymous nature of usenet.
DB
Tom Matthews
> "Tom Matthews" <t...@morelife.org> wrote in message news:3C6F6DD4.5000307@
>
> Thanks for the thoughts, Tom. The reason I opted for intermittent fasting
> was that I could be pretty sure that I was cutting back calorie intake by
> 2/7: I couldn't think of any easy way of calculating the totals otherwise.
> But is a cut of 2/7 really enough to put a human in 'effective' CR
> territory?
The effect you get depends somewhat on the amount which you cut. 2/7
(about 28%) is a quite high amount for a human to comfortably maintain.
Even 15-20% will be helpful. Don't forget this is a calorie reduction
from what keeps you at a healthy set point weight, not from that which
keeps you fat and greatly overweight.
> Walford clearly thinks so, from what you say; but I have been
> worrying about how I could know - and there was a CR chap on UK TV the other
> day who seemed to be *really* cutting back... Is there an easy test for any
> particular bodily substance that it might be worth doing?
Generally, CR modifies all blood test and other physiological parameters
in a positive direction. It may take a few months to show such changes
and perhaps not at all if you are already very healthy.
> Are there
> immediate physical signs that it's doing something? (I don't seem to have
> lost any weight; but there wasn't too much to start with...).
There seems to be a range of caloric intake (different for different
people) within which you will neither gain nor lose weight. Once outside
that range (as you likely are at 28% reduction) you should eventually
begin to lose weight. However, if you have a low fat percentage already
you may not have far to go in the weight department.
For more complete information and discussion with others who are on CR,
you would be best to join the CR society group/list (See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crsociety)
John Dye
Actually, being irritable and a genuine pain in the ass ia part of CR.
Michael Sherman recommended Deprenyl for this I "think" that I
have noticed the irritablilty lessening after a year and several
months on a CRON diet.
John
Brandon J. Van Every
"John Dye" <jd...@nospamhome.com> wrote in message
news:ip437u404eceh2fm6...@4ax.com...
>
> Actually, being irritable and a genuine pain in the ass ia part of CR.
> Michael Sherman recommended Deprenyl for this I "think" that I
> have noticed the irritablilty lessening after a year and several
> months on a CRON diet.
I don't understand how someone could accept chronic irritability as in any
way healthy. The mind and body are a unity, what you do to one affects the
other. Skipping food is a problem because you're missing out on pleasure?
Heck, how about missing out on the main source of energy and materials to
regulate and repair your body? If you're chronically irritable, lethargic,
or have poor mental focus, your body is trying to tell you something.
A guy in one of my Russian classes fasted once, for at least 2 weeks maybe
longer. He looked like shit. He did not appear to be mentally alert nor
possessed of sufficient energy to fight. Nor did this fasting solve the
problems with his mind, he had and still has serious issues to work out.
Another rather intense, Taoist friend of mine fasted for something like 40
days at one point in his life. He said it cured him of all kinds of bad
stuff in his body: gall stones, toxins, you name it, fasting got rid of it.
He still has lotsa mental issues to this day, but I do believe him when he
said he solved a number of his physical problems that way.
I wonder if one's mental relationship to fasting isn't just as important as
the physical act of fasting.
I certainly know that one's mental relationship to *regular* eating matters.
I think eating should be for a constructive purpose, shouldn't fill you with
anxieties, shouldn't overburden you, and should fit into your life rather
than dominating your life. That said, I have to be disciplined about
getting to the grocery store and acquiring everything I need. I did have to
learn about what I needed, and I'm still learning.
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
John Dye
This topic has been discussed in the CR Society newslist, hosted by
Yahoo Groups, if you are interested in reading the archives. A big
question for practicing CR, which is usually very different from
fasting routines, is that you will be colder (less fat), have a
lowered libido (less testosterone), experience irritability, and
perhaps some other negative effects I cannot think of. Is this worth
20 to 40 years of extra life, and a life with less disease and
sickness? Individual decision. Like I said, In my case the
irritability seems to be receding, or I may just be getting used to it
and do not notice it anymore .
John
Brandon Van Every
"Marcus E Engdahl" <meng...@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message
news:a4u4gr$2hn9$3...@midnight.cs.hut.fi...
> In article <afv47ughncr9e1ocq...@4ax.com>,
> >Is this worth
> >20 to 40 years of extra life, and a life with less disease and
> >sickness? Individual decision.
>
> mind-state will prevent any lenghtening effect on lifespan.
> We'll see, I suppose.
Yeah, it'll be nice to see the evidence someday, hopefully before we're
dead. :-) In the meantime, call me 32 but I don't have any need for "less
disease and sickness." To my knowledge I'm exceedingly healthy and most
importantly, I *feel* healthy. The only major health threat in my life is
my computer furniture. I'd rather just keep moving towards whatever makes
me feel the best, I don't have any faith in unsubstantiated 20..40 year
payoffs.
Tom Matthews
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:23:09 GMT, "Brandon J. Van Every"
> <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"John Dye" <jd...@nospamhome.com> wrote in message
>>news:ip437u404eceh2fm6...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>Actually, being irritable and a genuine pain in the ass ia part of CR.
>>>Michael Sherman recommended Deprenyl for this I "think" that I
>>>have noticed the irritablilty lessening after a year and several
>>>months on a CRON diet.
>>>
>>I don't understand how someone could accept chronic irritability as in any
>>way healthy. The mind and body are a unity, what you do to one affects the
>>other.
Agreed.
> Skipping food is a problem because you're missing out on pleasure?
This depends very much on the various valuations of pleasure producing
things. You cannot make such a blanket statement for everyone.
>>Heck, how about missing out on the main source of energy and materials to
>>regulate and repair your body?
You misunderstand CR. Being on CR means eating less food but higher
nutrient density food, so no nutrients except calories are missing or
reduced at all. Most often those on CR are eating far more nutritiously
than those most other people (except for calories).
>>If you're chronically irritable, lethargic,
>>or have poor mental focus, your body is trying to tell you something.
Agreed.
>>A guy in one of my Russian classes fasted once, for at least 2 weeks maybe
>>longer. He looked like shit.
Fasting and CR are not the same at all. You need to do some study about
CR before you start posting comment on it.
>>He did not appear to be mentally alert nor
>>possessed of sufficient energy to fight. Nor did this fasting solve the
>>problems with his mind, he had and still has serious issues to work out.
Quite so. It is not any solution for psychological problems.
>>Another rather intense, Taoist friend of mine fasted for something like 40
>>days at one point in his life. He said it cured him of all kinds of bad
>>stuff in his body: gall stones, toxins, you name it, fasting got rid of it.
>>He still has lotsa mental issues to this day, but I do believe him when he
>>said he solved a number of his physical problems that way.
That is also quite possible. But again these have no relationship to CR.
>>I wonder if one's mental relationship to fasting isn't just as important as
>>the physical act of fasting.
>>
>>I certainly know that one's mental relationship to *regular* eating matters.
>>I think eating should be for a constructive purpose, shouldn't fill you with
>>anxieties, shouldn't overburden you, and should fit into your life rather
>>than dominating your life. That said, I have to be disciplined about
>>getting to the grocery store and acquiring everything I need. I did have to
>>learn about what I needed, and I'm still learning.
>>
>
> This topic has been discussed in the CR Society newslist, hosted by
> Yahoo Groups, if you are interested in reading the archives. A big
> question for practicing CR, which is usually very different from
> fasting routines, is that you will be colder (less fat), have a
> lowered libido (less testosterone), experience irritability, and
> perhaps some other negative effects I cannot think of.
None of this is *necessarily* a part of CR. With me it is not. I am not
cold, I do not have less libido, I do not have any more irritability
than I have ever had, I have more energy not less, I have better mental
focus, and I do not have any other negative effects that I am aware.
It all depends on your approach to CR. If you are determined to be
puritanical, self flagellating and constantly in denial then these
attributes will be the result. In that case, I agree that it is unlikely
to work and even if it does it is unlikely to be worthwhile in terms of
overall integrated life happiness. This is a major reason why I think
that any more than 25% CR is not a wise option for a human with a mind
which so influences his body.
> Is this worth
> 20 to 40 years of extra life, and a life with less disease and
> sickness?
If you are chronically in the condition which you describe, I don't
believe that you will have a life of less disease and sickness (not in
old age anyway), nor will you likely even extend your lifespan. Humans
are not rats nor mice, nor even monkeys. Their overall mind/body
requirements are different.
> Individual decision. Like I said, In my case the
> irritability seems to be receding, or I may just be getting used to it
> and do not notice it anymore.
Fill up your gut more with low cal foods (vegetables and water) and you
will not be so irritable.
Brandon Van Every
>
> >>A guy in one of my Russian classes fasted once, for at least 2 weeks
maybe
> >>longer. He looked like shit.
>
> Fasting and CR are not the same at all. You need to do some study about
> CR before you start posting comment on it.
It wasn't a comment on CR actually, but about fasting.