The Franz Gnaedinger Memorial Lectures on Irish

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

I guess I have to write something more about this, as Franz himself is
urging me on. Arnaud, which of the following verb forms have I not yet
written about:
- present indicative
- present subjunctive
- past indicative
- past subjunctive
- imperfect aka habitual pasr
- future tense
- conditional mood
- verbal noun morphology
- verbal noun syntax

Or should we concentrate on nouns, adjectives or something?

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Anyway, the verb clois!/cluin! 'hear!'

Present tense: cloiseann/cluineann. In Ulster, chluin - the first
consonant is lenited, but eclipses normally after eclipsing verbal
particles (go gcluin mé "that I hear").
Present subjunctive: go gcloise, go gcluine.
Past: chuala, past autonomous: chualathas. In Ulster, the regularized
past cluineadh is sometimes used. Past takes the past verbal particles
in the standard language: gur chuala mé "that I heard", but the use of
eclipsing particles (go gcuala mé) is quite common in dialects.
Past habitual/past subjunctive: chloiseadh/chluineadh, autonomous form
chloistí, chluintí, thus regular.
Future: cloisfidh/cluinfidh, autonomous cloisfear, cluinfear, thus
regular.
Conditional: chloisfeadh/chluinfeadh, autonomous chloisfí, chluinfí.
Verbal participle/adjective: cloiste, cluinte.
Verbal noun: cluinstin(t), cloisteáil, cluinsbheáil, clos are all
found in dialects.

Examples:

Chuala mé Seán ag labhairt Gaeilge. I heard John speaking Irish.
Níor chuala mé trácht ar a leithéid d'fhear riamh. I never heard such
a man mentioned.
Cé gur thréig a mac an nead na blianta fada ó shin, cloiseann Máire a
ghuth gach uile mhaidin. Although her son abandoned the nest (left
home) long years ago, Mary hears his voice every morning.
Conas sin? How come?
Is craoltóir é. He is a broadcaster.
Nuair a bhí sé ina leanbh beag, chloisinn go minic é ag rá gur
theastaigh uaidh a bheith ina eitleoir. When he was a small child, I
often heard him saying that he wanted to be a pilot.
Bheifeá tógtha ó lár aige dá gcloisfeá ag síor-spalpadh leis faoin
eitleoireacht é!
He'd drive you crazy if you heard him always prattling away about
flying planes!
Nuair a chuala sé go raibh súile maithe ag teastáil ó eitleoir, áfach,
b'éigean dó an aisling sin a thabhairt suas. When he heard that a
pilot needed good eyes he had to give up that dream, though.

[Arnaud F.]

***

Maybe you should describe a bit more these points:

- past subjunctive

- conditional mood

- verbal noun morphology

- verbal noun syntax

And what about participles?

A.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Thank you. I will.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Sep 14, 11:11 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 01:39:57 UTC+2, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I guess I have to write something more about this, as Franz himself is
>
> > urging me on. Arnaud, which of the following verb forms have I not yet
>
> > written about:
>
> > - present indicative
>
> > - present subjunctive
>
> > - past indicative
>
> > - past subjunctive
>
> > - imperfect aka habitual pasr
>
> > - future tense
>
> > - conditional mood
>
> > - verbal noun morphology
>
> > - verbal noun syntax
>
> > Or should we concentrate on nouns, adjectives or something?
>
> ***
>
> Maybe you should describe a bit more these points:
>
> - past subjunctive

Past subjunctive is nowadays an optional form used instead of
conditional mood in clauses beginning with sara/sula "before", mara/
mura "unless, if not", and dá/dhá "if", if there is conditional mood
in the main clause. Past subjunctive is the same in form as imperfect
- i.e. it takes the same forms as conditional, but without the -f- of
first conjugation, or the long o's of the second.

Bheadh an cáca ite sula dtiocfadh sé abhaile. (conditional mood in the
subordinate clause) OR Bheadh an cáca ite sula dtagadh sé abhaile.
(past subjunctive in the subordinate clause) "The cake would have been
eaten before he'd come home.

Mura dtiocfaidh sé abhaile ní bheadh cáca ann. "Unless he came home
there would be/would have been no cake." = Mura dtagadh sé abhaile ní
bheadh cáca ann.

Dá mbeadh eireaball ar an éan, bheadh an scéal ní b'fhaide. = Dá
mbíodh eireaball ar an éan, bheadh an scéal ní b'fhaide. "If the bird
had (had) a tail, the story would be /would have been longer." (A
traditional way of a storyteller to ask forgiveness for how short his
story is.)

[Arnaud F.]

What does Chuvash xyrz^av might mean?

Thx

A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I'll have to look it up, but I don't think /*zh*/ appears in words of
Turkic origin.

[Arnaud F.]

***

This word is proposed as origin of Moksha krzha "few, little".

Besides I forgot your explanation of anc^ak !?

A.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Comparison between conditional and past subjunctive/past habitual
forms.

Éirigh! "rise! become!"

conditional/past subjunctive or habitual
d'éireoinn/d'éirinn
d'éireofá/d'éiríteá
d'éireodh sé, sí/d'éiríodh sé, sí
d'éireoimis/d'éirímis
d'éireodh sibh/d'éiríodh sibh
d'éireoidís/d'éirídís
Impersonal: d'éireofaí/d'éirítí

Oscail! "open!"

d'osclóinn/d'osclaínn
d'osclófá/d'osclaíteá
d'osclódh sé, sí/d'osclaíodh sé, sí
d'osclóimis/d'osclaímis
d'osclódh sibh/d'osclaíodh sibh
d'osclóidís/d'osclaídís
Impersonal: d'osclófaí/d'osclaítí

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Sep 19, 3:29 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

Dá mbeadh Franz ina thost, bheimis breá sásta. = Dá mbíodh Franz ina
thost, bheimis breá sásta. If Franz were silent (ina thost "in his
silence"), we would be happy and satisfied.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

a- original form of the 3rd person singular pronoun, in the
historical period used in oblique cases only
-n- /n/ used in the oblique cases of the 3rd person singular pronoun
-c^ak comparative case.

> A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 2, 1:49 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:33 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le samedi 22 septembre 2012 22:53:50 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> > > On Sep 22, 4:08 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > > What does Chuvash xyrz^av might mean?
>
> > > > Thx
>
> > > > A.
>
> > > I'll have to look it up, but I don't think /*zh*/ appears in words of
>
> > > Turkic origin.
>
> > ***
>
> > This word is proposed as origin of Moksha krzha "few, little".
>
> > Besides I forgot your explanation of anc^ak !?
>
>  a- original form of the 3rd person singular pronoun, in the

for the nominative ol apparently an archaic demonstrative ( 3rd pers.
pr. and the far demonstrative are identical in Turkic languages).

> historical period used in oblique cases only
>  -n- /n/ used in the oblique cases of the 3rd person singular pronoun

for the 1st and 2nd sing. pronouns the -n- has attached itself to the
nominative as well, but not in Chuvash)

1st pers. sing *bi/*be > ben (Turkish and the oldest layer of Old
Turkic) > men (all other Turkic languages)

Chuvash has epe~ < e-pe~ < *e-bi
ese~ < e-se~ < *e-si

2nd pers. sing *si/*se > sen

cf. proto-Tunguz

*bi
*si
*i


>  -c^ak comparative case.

actually the comparative case -c^a so really -c^a-k -k found in
dimunitives.

for -c^a is for quantity , for quality -teg

Turkish has only -c^a but nite < *ne-te < *ne-teg (loss of -g regular
for Oghuz) "how" (ne "what") for Old Anatolian Turkish (hence
neologism nitelik "quality"). Old Anatolian Turkish is late 13th -
early 16th cent. after which Turkish stabilizes ("Ottoman Turkish") to
more or less current form. students of Ottoman Turkish take a seperate
course for Old Anatolian Turkish though on the whole it is still
intelligible (except for the nearly vowelless texts make difficult
reading).

comparative cases are "weak cases" and hence the case endings also
becomes word building suffixes.

>
>
>
> > A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 2, 2:43 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 1:49 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 22, 5:33 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > Le samedi 22 septembre 2012 22:53:50 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> > > > On Sep 22, 4:08 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > > > What does Chuvash xyrz^av might mean?
>
> > > > > Thx
>
> > > > > A.
>
> > > > I'll have to look it up, but I don't think /*zh*/ appears in words of
>
> > > > Turkic origin.
>
> > > ***
>
> > > This word is proposed as origin of Moksha krzha "few, little".
>
> > > Besides I forgot your explanation of anc^ak !?
>

meaning: "barely". also when at the head of a sentence, it indicates
that what was previously said is about to be qualified or set
exceptions to.

> >  a- original form of the 3rd person singular pronoun, in the
>
>  for the nominative ol apparently an archaic demonstrative ( 3rd pers.
> pr. and the far demonstrative are identical in Turkic languages).
>

Turkic 3rd pers. sing nominative pronoun is ol which is also the far
demonstrative

Chuvash has val for ol (pronoun) which is the expected cognate so the
change must have taken place before Chuvash (i.e. Bulgaric) and the
rest of Turkic split

> > historical period used in oblique cases only
> >  -n- /n/ used in the oblique cases of the 3rd person singular pronoun
>
> for the 1st and 2nd sing. pronouns the -n- has attached itself to the
> nominative as well, but not in Chuvash)
>

not used in 1st and 2nd plural personal pronouns:

biz < *bi-r2 (-z/-r2 a collective indicator or archaic collective)
(all cases) Chuvash epir
siz < *si-r2 Chuvash esir

3rd pers.plural pronoun is olar < ol - lar (plural suffix appearing
in Old Turkic but not in Chuvash). regularly declined without -n- in
Old Turkic but later Turkic languages have oblique anlar-

>   1st pers. sing *bi/*be > ben (Turkish and the oldest layer of Old
> Turkic) > men  (all other Turkic languages)
>
>    Chuvash has epe~ < e-pe~ < *e-bi
>                        ese~  < e-se~ < *e-si
>
>  2nd pers. sing *si/*se > sen
>
>  cf. proto-Tunguz
>
>     *bi
>     *si
>     *i
>
> >  -c^ak comparative case.
>
>  actually the comparative case -c^a so really -c^a-k -k found in
> dimunitives.
>
>  for -c^a is for quantity , for quality -teg
>
>  Turkish has only -c^a but nite < *ne-te < *ne-teg (loss of -g regular
> for Oghuz) "how" (ne "what") for Old Anatolian Turkish (hence
> neologism nitelik "quality"). Old Anatolian Turkish is late 13th -
> early 16th cent. after which Turkish stabilizes ("Ottoman Turkish") to
> more or less current form. students of Ottoman Turkish take a seperate
> course for Old Anatolian Turkish though on the whole it is still
> intelligible (except for the nearly vowelless texts make difficult
> reading).
>
>  comparative cases are "weak cases" and hence the case endings also
> becomes word building suffixes.
>
>

for example -c^a is used to make language names in probably all
Turkic languages except Chuvash.Tu"rkc^e "Turkish" if it was a case
the accentuation would be different,
but -c^e is no longer as productive. the meaning "in a Turkish
manner" is recorded in a famous 1901 dictionay but I have never
encountered it so used.

>
>
>
> > > A.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Sep 28, 8:11 pm, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

Ceil! "hide!"

cheilfinn/cheilinn
cheilfeá/cheilteá
cheilfeadh sé/cheileadh sé
cheilfimis/cheilimis
cheilfeadh sibh/cheileadh sibh
cheilfidís/cheilidís
cheilfí/cheiltí

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

To sum it up, the conditional mood and the past subjunctive/habitual
have the same forms otherwise, but in the first conjugation (mostly
monosyllabic stems) there is an -f- in conditional mood which is
omitted in the past subjunctive/habitual forms. This -f- is really
only pronounced as [h], except in the second person singular (cheilfeá
[x'el'f'a:], nochtfá [noxtfa:], chaithfeá [xa(i)f'a:]) and in the
impersonal form (cheilfí [x'el'f'i:], nochtfaí [noxtfi:], chaithfí
[xa(i)f'i:]) - in a similar way, a -t- or a -th- appears in the second
person singular and in the impersonal form of the past subjunctive/
habitual.

In the second conjugation, an -ó- or -eo- appears in the conditional,
corresponding to a long -í- in the past subjunctive/habitual.

The conjunctions dhá "if", mura (dialectally also muna, mara) and sula
(sara) eclipse the verb.