Arabic "L"
Bill Poole
I have heard that too, as I recall it was in Guiness as the rarest
sound since it only occurs in that one word, albeit a word that in the
Arabic speaking parts of the world is uttered very very very often. I
think I can pronounce that L, and I do not know of another occurance of
it. But my never having encountered a similar L in another language does
not mean it doesn't exist.
Arabic is sometimes call the "Language of the _D_" (il-lughat-i-dad)
that's dad or dhad the 15th letter, not dal the 8th letter. Since that
sound does not occur in other languages. Although its quite common in
Arabic.
Poole
C R Culver wrote:
>
> Saluton!
>
> Mi auxskultis, ke la L (kvazaux en 'Allah') de la lingvon Arabika, ne
> estas kiel io alia lingvo en la mondo. Estas cxi tio vere?
>
> Hello!
>
> I have heard, that the L of the Arabic language is not like any other
> language on Earth. Is this true?
>
> Christopher R. Culver
> crcu...@aol.com
--
Bill Poole
Scottsdale, AZ
wpoo...@terrestrial.com
http://www.terrestrial.com/~wpoolejr/
.- .- ....- --.-
卜 畢 爾
J 9-' J-'-'
" " '
'
Mike Wright
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 May 1997 22:52:49 -0700, Bill Poole
> <wpoo...@terrestrial.com> wrote:
>
> >I have heard that too, as I recall it was in Guiness as the rarest
> >sound since it only occurs in that one word, albeit a word that in the
> >Arabic speaking parts of the world is uttered very very very often.
>
>
> >I think I can pronounce that L, and I do not know of another occurance of
> >it. But my never having encountered a similar L in another language does
> >not mean it doesn't exist.
>
> l") and many other languages. In English, it's the usual allophone of
> /l/ at the end of a syllable, but in many varieties of American
> English "dark l" is used in all positions.
> What makes the Arabic case unique is that the sound occurs in only one
> word (and its derivations). The sound itself isn't rare at all.
[...]
However, (the way I learned it) the Arabic emphatic [l~] is properly
pronounced a bit farther back than the American English one, with the
middle of the tongue dropped more, and with more tightening of the
muscles at the back of the mouth and upper throat. It is certainly not
"the same" as the American English sound, being much tenser and having a
much stronger effect on the surrounding [a] sounds. (Also, note that the
word "Allah" has two such [l~] sounds together, which adds even more
tension and duration to the sound.)
--
Mike Wright
____________________________________
email: dar...@scruznet.com
WWW: http://www.scruz.net/~darwin/language.html
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
>I have heard that too, as I recall it was in Guiness as the rarest
>sound since it only occurs in that one word, albeit a word that in the
>Arabic speaking parts of the world is uttered very very very often.
I assume the reference is to 'Allah?
>I think I can pronounce that L, and I do not know of another occurance of
>it. But my never having encountered a similar L in another language does
>not mean it doesn't exist.
Arabic emphatic/velarized [l~] is extremely common in English ("dark
l") and many other languages. In English, it's the usual allophone of
/l/ at the end of a syllable, but in many varieties of American
English "dark l" is used in all positions.
What makes the Arabic case unique is that the sound occurs in only one
word (and its derivations). The sound itself isn't rare at all.
>Arabic is sometimes call the "Language of the _D_" (il-lughat-i-dad)
>that's dad or dhad the 15th letter, not dal the 8th letter. Since that
>sound does not occur in other languages. Although its quite common in
>Arabic.
Velarized [d~] "d.a:d", and likewise [t~] "t.a:'", [s~] "s.a:d" and
[D~]/[z~] "z.a:'" are overall rarer sounds in the world's languages.
Apart from other Semitic languages, the only example I can think of
where they occur (allophonically) is Russian: the distinction there is
between "soft" (palatalized) and "hard" (plain) consonants, but as a
matter of fact the so-called "plain" consonants are often considerably
velarized.
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@pi.net |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
On Tue, 20 May 1997 12:25:28 -0800, Mike Wright <dar...@scruznet.com>
wrote:
>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>> Arabic emphatic/velarized [l~] is extremely common in English ("dark
>> l") and many other languages. In English, it's the usual allophone of
>> /l/ at the end of a syllable, but in many varieties of American
>> English "dark l" is used in all positions.
>> What makes the Arabic case unique is that the sound occurs in only one
>> word (and its derivations). The sound itself isn't rare at all.
>[...]
>
>However, (the way I learned it) the Arabic emphatic [l~] is properly
>pronounced a bit farther back than the American English one, with the
>middle of the tongue dropped more, and with more tightening of the
>muscles at the back of the mouth and upper throat. It is certainly not
>"the same" as the American English sound, being much tenser and having a
>much stronger effect on the surrounding [a] sounds. (Also, note that the
>word "Allah" has two such [l~] sounds together, which adds even more
>tension and duration to the sound.)
Correct. There are always subtle differences between "the same"
sounds across languages (which are themselves averages over the range
of individual varieties). Still, English "dark l" is close enough to
Arabic "emphatic l" to make learning the Arabic sound fairly easy.
Maybe I should have stuck by my initial comparison with Catalan "dark
l", which is I think a closer match, but comparing it with English
seemed to me more useful for most people...
Hans-Christian Holm
Bill Poole wrote in article <33813C...@terrestrial.com>...
>I have heard that too, as I recall it was in Guiness as the rarest
>sound since it only occurs in that one word, albeit a word that in the
>Arabic speaking parts of the world is uttered very very very often. I
I've always thought that the Czech sound which is written as r with a
haczek above is considered the world's "rarest sound" (if it's possible for
such a thing to exist). I have no idea what the formal phonetic description
of this sound is, but I would describe it as a trill with plenty of palatal
frction. It also considered very difficult to pronounce. It's the last
sound Czech children learn, and a significant part of the adult population
is not able to pronounce it, using a "common" r instead.
Hans-Christian Holm
Rich Wales
Hans-Christian Holm <hch...@notam.uio.no> wrote:
I've always thought that the Czech sound which is written
as r with a haczek above is considered the world's "rarest
sound" (if it's possible for such a thing to exist).
A similar sound apparently exists in Romanian. When "r" is followed by
unstressed, whispered "i", the consonant loses its voicing about halfway
through, and also becomes noticeably palatalized. (In case this might
be a regional dialect, my Romanian teacher in the mid-1980's was from
Cluj-Napoca.)
Rich Wales ri...@webcom.com http://www.webcom.com/richw/
Paul J Kriha
In article <5m9asl$h26$1...@ratatosk.uio.no>, "Hans-Christian Holm" <hch...@notam.uio.no> wrote:
> Bill Poole wrote in article <33813C...@terrestrial.com>...
>>I have heard that too, as I recall it was in Guiness as the rarest
>>sound since it only occurs in that one word, albeit a word that in the
>>Arabic speaking parts of the world is uttered very very very often. I
>
>haczek above is considered the world's "rarest sound" (if it's possible for
>of this sound is, but I would describe it as a trill with plenty of palatal
>frction. It also considered very difficult to pronounce. It's the last
>sound Czech children learn, and a significant part of the adult population
>is not able to pronounce it, using a "common" r instead.
>
>Hans-Christian Holm
I don't think r^ is that rare. The Polish rz is sometimes close
to Czech z^ but sometimes quite close to Czech r^. Poles and
other Western Slavs have usually no problem in pronouncing
correctly the 'Czech r^'.
In normal speech r^ occurs just about as frequently as other palatalised
consonants, s^ c^ t^ n^ d^ z^, so it's not rarely used either.
Kids usually learn it early, since it is the sound the horses make :-)
(Czech horses, mind you!)
Children with a r^-speech defect learn to fake it with other palatalised
consonants, usually z^ or s^. A "common" r would sound too ridiculous.
It is *never* used in place of r^, that would lead to many ambiguities.
As far as I remember, more people have (much more noticeable and
annoying) problems with sibilants and shibilants, eg. 'English' th
instead of s, called "stepping on one's tongue".
r^ in CV- or -VCV- words may be difficult enough for a foreign speaker,
however, where r^ is especially difficult is in consonant cluters,
which occur commonly in Czech.
tr^ as in tr^i (three)
pr^ p^i'roda (nature)
kr^ kr^ivka (curve)
Luckily, unlike r or l, r^ doesn't occur in the middle of -CCC-. :-)
Thanks Perun for that.
Cheers,
Paul JK
--
Know what's weird? Day by day nothing seems to
change, but pretty soon everything is different.
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
On Thu, 29 May 97 13:32:22 GMT, kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha)
wrote:
>I don't think r^ is that rare. The Polish rz is sometimes close
>to Czech z^ but sometimes quite close to Czech r^. Poles and
>other Western Slavs have usually no problem in pronouncing
>correctly the 'Czech r^'.
>
>In normal speech r^ occurs just about as frequently as other palatalised
>consonants, s^ c^ t^ n^ d^ z^, so it's not rarely used either.
>Kids usually learn it early, since it is the sound the horses make :-)
>(Czech horses, mind you!)
Indeed they do! I'd never thought of that...
(And what sound do Przewalski horses make? pr^-r^-r^ or prz-rz-rz? :-)
KE Arnesen
> When 'Allah' is prefixed by prepositions (bi- , li- &c.) the 'l' looses
> its emphatic pronouciation.....
[Addendum:]
...as well as when immediately preceeded by a word ending in '-i' (the
reason being the 'Hamsat ul-waSl' of the letter 'alif' in Allah), e.g.:
'bismi llaah'
KE Arnesen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Verba volant, littera scripta manet.
rad...@at.ibm.com
In article <5mk0h6$16o...@actrix.gen.nz>,
kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha) wrote:
>
> r^ in CV- or -VCV- words may be difficult enough for a foreign speaker,
> however, where r^ is especially difficult is in consonant cluters,
> which occur commonly in Czech.
>
> tr^ as in tr^i (three)
> pr^ p^i'roda (nature)
> kr^ kr^ivka (curve)
>
> Luckily, unlike r or l, r^ doesn't occur in the middle of -CCC-. :-)
> Thanks Perun for that.
Wrong:
takr^ka (almost)
Radek
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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Paul J Kriha
In article <339ae164....@news.pi.net>, m...@pi.net (Miguel Carrasquer
Vidal) wrote:
>On Thu, 29 May 97 13:32:22 GMT, kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha)
>wrote:
>
>>I don't think r^ is that rare. The Polish rz is sometimes close
>>to Czech z^ but sometimes quite close to Czech r^. Poles and
>>other Western Slavs have usually no problem in pronouncing
>>correctly the 'Czech r^'.
>>
>>In normal speech r^ occurs just about as frequently as other palatalised
>>consonants, s^ c^ t^ n^ d^ z^, so it's not rarely used either.
>>Kids usually learn it early, since it is the sound the horses make :-)
>>(Czech horses, mind you!)
>
>Indeed they do! I'd never thought of that...
>
>(And what sound do Przewalski horses make? pr^-r^-r^ or prz-rz-rz? :-)
>
Well, Przewalskis can take it easy. I suppose up there, where they live,
they don't have to roll their r^s. :-)
The Czech horses r^ehtaji' (neigh or wildly laugh).
Most of the Czechs manage the r^ but they usually pronounce h as ch.
(concordance? sandi?)
There is another word for neighing, "rz^a't".
Tongue twisting trilled hard r followed by palatalised z.
Paul JK.
Paul J Kriha
In article <8654322...@dejanews.com>, rad...@at.ibm.com wrote:
>In article <5mk0h6$16o...@actrix.gen.nz>,
> kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha) wrote:
[...]
>> Luckily, unlike r or l, r^ doesn't occur in the middle of -CCC-. :-)
>> Thanks Perun for that.
>
>Wrong:
>
>takr^ka (almost)
>
>Radek
Drats! You are right.
I suppose it used to be "tak r^ka" ("so to speak" or "so said"),
but it has been indeed contracted into a single word.
Next, you'll come up with examples of r^ surrounded with sibilants :-)
rad...@at.ibm.com
In article <5n5qm0$304...@actrix.gen.nz>,
kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha) wrote:
> >> Luckily, unlike r or l, r^ doesn't occur in the middle of -CCC-. :-)
> >> Thanks Perun for that.
> >
> >Wrong:
> >
> >takr^ka (almost)
> >
> >Radek
>
> Drats! You are right.
...
> Next, you'll come up with examples of r^ surrounded with sibilants :-)
>
> Paul JK.
A tough one. My complete list is:
takr^ka - almost
tr^tina - sugar cane (my favourite; real treat for the tongue)
jitr^ni' - morning (adj)
kr^tiny - baptism
chr^ta'n - throat
tr^men - stirrup
hr^me^ni' - thunder (four consonant sounds in a row!)
vnitr^ne - internally
hr^bet - back (as in horseback)
hr^bitov - cemetery
Ve^tr^ni', Petr^vald - Czech towns
Br^ve, Br^vany - Czech villages (would you believe there are such
places?)
There are other villages, but the list gets kinda boring with them. And
derived words, of course.
M. Murray
rad...@at.ibm.com wrote:
: In article <5n5qm0$304...@actrix.gen.nz>,
: kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Kriha) wrote:
: Br^ve, Br^vany - Czech villages (would you believe there are such
: places?)
:
From my knowledge of German, indeed I would. The German expression
"böhmische Dörfer" translates literally as "Czech villages" and is used
equivalently to "double Dutch" in English to describe anything totally
incomprehensible.
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England