You say Slavonic and I say Slavic
Peter T. Daniels
Dušan Vukotić
> The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
Slavonic would be more appropriate: Slovenski, Slavenski, Slavjanski
DV
John Atkinson
> The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
As Comrie says in the first line of the Intro to "The Slavonic
languages":
"The Slavonic languages (usually called the Slavic languages in the
United States) are ..."
Maybe CUP has emigrated to the other Cambridge?
John
(who uses both terms at random)
Brian M. Scott
<john...@bigpond.com> wrote in
<news:KyVgj.902$421...@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
sci.lang:
I use both, but definitely not at random: it's Old Church
Slavonic, but otherwise I use 'Slavic'.
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
> On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:36:42 GMT, John Atkinson
> <news:KyVgj.902$421...@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
> sci.lang:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote...
> >> The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
> > As Comrie says in the first line of the Intro to "The Slavonic
> > languages":
> > "The Slavonic languages (usually called the Slavic languages in the
> > United States) are ..."
> > Maybe CUP has emigrated to the other Cambridge?
> > John
> > (who uses both terms at random)
>
> I use both, but definitely not at random: it's Old Church
> Slavonic, but otherwise I use 'Slavic'.
But the Brits use "Slavonic" for the family name, and if not Lunt,
then other American authorities (though not a majority) use "Old
Church Slavic" for the language.
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote...
>
> > The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
>
> As Comrie says in the first line of the Intro to "The Slavonic
> languages":
That would be the Routledge volume (Comrie & Corbett)?
> "The Slavonic languages (usually called the Slavic languages in the
> United States) are ..."
>
> Maybe CUP has emigrated to the other Cambridge?
>
> John
> (who uses both terms at random)
That's almost exactly what I said to Helen Barton, the Ling & Anthro
editor. She said Bernard's fine with it! (Clackson also has "Slavic.")
Paul J Kriha
news:e84b567d-39f5-447f...@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
"Slavonic" is etymologically closer to the corresponding adjectives
in various Slavic languages, than "Slavic" is. The word in those
languages is spelled and pronounced in various (and similar)
ways, but it (always) has the consonant "n" in it.
Does that mean it is incorrect for English and AmEnglish
speakers to use the English word "Slavic"? Of course it isn't.
I think we have been stuck with both of these alternatives for
quite a while now. They occur at different rates of distribution
in various countries around the world.
pjk
P.S.
I notice that Dvořák's "Slovanské tance" are (almost) always
translated as "Slavonic dances", not "Slavic dances".
P.P.S.
Similar questions have been asked about "Slovak" versus "Slovakian".
However, my CED is prescriptively decisive about that.
I should send BBC a copy of it, they obviously don't have one.
:-)
Emungo
wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:e84b567d-39f5-447f...@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
phog...@abo.fi
> The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
Who the heck cares, it's all English.
Paul J Kriha
news:f10b89a8-543a-426d...@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>On 9 Jan, 06:10, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in
[...]
>> >But the Brits use "Slavonic" for the family name, and if not Lunt,
>> >then other American authorities (though not a majority) use "Old
>> >Church Slavic" for the language.
>>
>> "Slavonic" is etymologically closer to the corresponding adjectives
>> in various Slavic languages, than "Slavic" is. The word in those
>> languages is spelled and pronounced in various (and similar)
>> ways, but it (always) has the consonant "n" in it.
>>
>> Does that mean it is incorrect for English and AmEnglish
>> speakers to use the English word "Slavic"? Of course it isn't.
>> I think we have been stuck with both of these alternatives for
>> quite a while now. They occur at different rates of distribution
>> in various countries around the world.
>> pjk
>>
>> P.S.
>> I notice that Dvořák's "Slovanské tance" are (almost) always
>> translated as "Slavonic dances", not "Slavic dances".
>>
>> P.P.S.
>> Similar questions have been asked about "Slovak" versus "Slovakian".
>> However, my CED is prescriptively decisive about that.
>> I should send BBC a copy of it, they obviously don't have one.
>> :-)
>
>What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
>distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
What? Ugh.
You want ME to list these adjectives in ALL Slavic languages?
Here you have the Russian and Czech masculine genders of
the adjectives Slovak(ian), Slovenian and Slavonic, in that order:
слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
pjk
P.S. BTW, what looks like a crossover, isn't a mistake.
The two almost identically sounding words (to a native
English speaker that is) "словенский" and "slovenský" are
in fact false friends.
Emungo
wrote:
> "Emungo" <pyti...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
> >distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>
> What? Ugh.
> You want ME to list these adjectives in ALL Slavic languages?
No, not at all. It was an enquiry addressed generally, inviting
anybody with knowledge of the specified area, and who could be
bothered, to list as much or as little of the material as they wished.
I'm very grateful for what you've given.
>
> Here you have the Russian and Czech masculine genders of
> the adjectives Slovak(ian), Slovenian and Slavonic, in that order:
>
> слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
> slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
>
> pjk
>
> P.S. BTW, what looks like a crossover, isn't a mistake.
> The two almost identically sounding words (to a native
> English speaker that is) "словенский" and "slovenský" are
> in fact false friends.- Hide quoted text -
On the Czech side at least this confirms the uninformed impression I
had that the differences between these words are minimal, though
presumably quite sufficient for most purposes. The next question
(again not directed at you necessarily) would be how far back and in
what contexts these differences can be traced. Presumably the
slovenský/slovinský distinction in vocab was fixed more or less pari
passu with the development of Slovene linguistic/cultural identity in
the 18th/19th century? Is there perhaps recorded conscious erudite/
academic/literary/nationalist involvement in the fixing of (all three
or any two of) these adjectives?
Paul J Kriha
>On 10 Jan, 08:47, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> "Emungo" <pyti...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> >What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
>> >distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>>
>> What? Ugh.
>> You want ME to list these adjectives in ALL Slavic languages?
>
>No, not at all. It was an enquiry addressed generally, inviting
>anybody with knowledge of the specified area, and who could be
>bothered, to list as much or as little of the material as they wished.
>I'm very grateful for what you've given.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound impetuous. My response was
meant to be jocular. To assemble names of Slavic nations,
languages, districts, dialects, or names of months and such,
requires intimate knowledge of each individual language.
There are numerous false friends and exceptions.
The above names are major nation/state/language groups,
but then you also have Slavonia (a district in E.Croatia), or
Slovácko (an area in E.Moravia, next to the Slovak border), etc.
God knows what, if anything, they are called in various Slavic
languages. :-)
>> Here you have the Russian and Czech masculine genders of
>> the adjectives Slovak(ian), Slovenian and Slavonic, in that order:
>>
>> слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
>> slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
>>
>> pjk
>>
>> P.S. BTW, what looks like a crossover, isn't a mistake.
>> The two almost identically sounding words (to a native
>> English speaker that is) "словенский" and "slovenský" are
>> in fact false friends.
>
>On the Czech side at least this confirms the uninformed impression I
>had that the differences between these words are minimal, though
>presumably quite sufficient for most purposes.
The Czech vowels e/i/a in the above three words, even while they
are in unstressed syllables, are never reduced. The vowels are
frequently reduced in languages like English and Russian, but
never (well, let's say hardly ever) in Czech. To a native Czech
speaker the differences between these three words isn't minimal.
>The next question
>(again not directed at you necessarily) would be how far back and in
>what contexts these differences can be traced. Presumably the
>slovenský/slovinský distinction in vocab was fixed more or less pari
>passu with the development of Slovene linguistic/cultural identity in
>the 18th/19th century?
The particular name "Slovene" may be quite recent (as you say
18/19th century) but both the linguistic and cultural Slovene identities
are significantly older. I'd say around a millennium or so till now.
Type Freising Manuscripts into Google and see about Slovene
texts written sometime between 972 and 1093, most likely before
1000. Wiki shows photos of it. It is amazingly readable document.
The language is easy. The script, Carolingian minuscule, is easily
readable, much more so than the later Blackletter/Gothic miniscule.
It looks almost modern. The later Gothic script was used in
Europe after 1150.
>Is there perhaps recorded conscious erudite/
>academic/literary/nationalist involvement in the fixing of
>(all three or any two of) these adjectives?
Yes, quite so. Just like anything else to do with literary
language. The Czech Language Academy records
the literary language, grammar and spelling. It adjusts
the official descriptions every 25-50 years as the language
slowly evolves. In the ocean of different Czech and Slavic
dialects and related languages in close neighbourhoods
the population generally regards the Academy's efforts
as highly commendable and necessary. They tend not to
dictate changes the general literary society wouldn't agree
with. Often the older forms are allowed as alternatives for
another 25-50 years until the older usage dies out. Similar
official academies exist in other Sl. speaking countries
as well as other European Continental countries.
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
older. I'd say around a millennium or so till now.
> Type Freising Manuscripts into Google and see about Slovene
> texts written sometime between 972 and 1093, most likely before
> 1000. Wiki shows photos of it. It is amazingly readable document.
> The language is easy. The script, Carolingian minuscule, is easily
> readable, much more so than the later Blackletter/Gothic miniscule.
> It looks almost modern. The later Gothic script was used in
> Europe after 1150.
No, it was not Slovene but some of the South-Slavic dialects; compare
Serbian and Slovenian translation of the beginning of the Freising
munuscript (click the link below) and you will see that this part of
the text is even closer to Serbian than Slovenian.
http://vukotic.atspace.com/brizin.htm
The language of South Slavs was called for centuries either Slavonic
or Serbian.
Slovene (Slovenian) is the modern, IXX century "coinage".
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Jan 11, 9:38 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
> older. I'd say around a millennium or so till now.
>
> > Type Freising Manuscripts into Google and see about Slovene
> > texts written sometime between 972 and 1093, most likely before
> > 1000. Wiki shows photos of it. It is amazingly readable document.
> > The language is easy. The script, Carolingian minuscule, is easily
> > readable, much more so than the later Blackletter/Gothic miniscule.
> > It looks almost modern. The later Gothic script was used in
> > Europe after 1150.
>
> No, it was not Slovene but some of the South-Slavic dialects; compare
> Serbian and Slovenian translation of the beginning of the Freising
> munuscript (click the link below) and you will see that this part of
>
> The language of South Slavs was called for centuries either Slavonic
> or Serbian.
>
> Slovene (Slovenian) is the modern, IXX century "coinage".
>
> DV
In fact, Slovenes just took the old common Slavic name (Sloveni) and
continued to use it as their own.
The same happened to Slovaks and Slavonians.
J. Fine's book "When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkans" is a
good literature for all those who want to learn more about the history
of the Balkan Slavs.
DV
Emungo
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for that. Interesting and useful. My only real knowledge on the
subject derives from an interest in the competing alternatives for
designating Slovene language/ cultural identity in the period
indicated, itself deriving from an interest in cultural/linguistic
identity in Istria, itself (and so on ad infinitum...)
VK
> The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
In English speaking countries the respective university departments
are always called "of Slavic languages", not "of Slavonic languages".
The only traditional exception is being made for the Old Slavonic
(a.k.a. Old Church Slavonic). I guess it is because "Slavic" comes
from the colloquial language and "Slavonic" adopted by scientists from
medieval Latin, so for native English language bearers it may retain
extra semantical fields of "something old, ancient, theoretical". Just
a speculation of mine. In Russian for instance there is not such
opposition: "Slavyanskiye yazyky" (Slavic languages) and "Staro-
Slavyanskiy yazyk" (Old Slavonic).
So I do support the Cambridge choice.
Jack Campin - bogus address
> are always called "of Slavic languages", not "of Slavonic languages".
Not at Glasgow, Leeds, Nottingham or Auckland.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Peter T. Daniels
I gather you've never seen *The Slavonic Languages*, a Routledge
volume edited by Bernard Comrie (one of the editors of the Cambridge
Green series) and Greville Corbett.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In English speaking countries the respective university departments
> > are always called "of Slavic languages", not "of Slavonic languages".
>
> Not at Glasgow, Leeds, Nottingham or Auckland.
Nor at UBC, back in the day when I was studying such stuff. The shift
from UBC to Cornell meant dropping the -on-. I was given to understand
that it was a classic Anglo/American difference, which seems to have
been broadly true. (The UBC department was run by an Englishman.)
Ross Clark
Paul J Kriha
news:7822bf85-131e-4e5c...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 9, 1:00 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
>
> In English speaking countries the respective university departments
> are always called "of Slavic languages", not "of Slavonic languages".
Bash ' "department of slavonic languages" ' into Google and in response
you get pointers to almost 2000 pages many of them being maintained
by various European universities and departments bearing that name.
Which shows that while one should never say "never" one should also
always refrain from saying "always". :-)
> The only traditional exception is being made for the Old Slavonic
> (a.k.a. Old Church Slavonic). I guess it is because "Slavic" comes
> from the colloquial language and "Slavonic" adopted by scientists from
> medieval Latin, so for native English language bearers it may retain
> extra semantical fields of "something old, ancient, theoretical". Just
> a speculation of mine. In Russian for instance there is not such
> opposition: "Slavyanskiye yazyky" (Slavic languages) and "Staro-
> Slavyanskiy yazyk" (Old Slavonic).
As far as I can tell, there is indeed no such opposition in any
Slavic language. I also believe that most of the native Slavic
language speakers do not care which of the two English
names the English speakers use in English.
BTW, which colloquial language are you refering to in your
"because Slavic comes from the colloquial language"?
I assume you mean English (German?), because the "n"
consonant is present in the Slavic versions of the name.
pjk
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> "VK" <schools_r...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
It seems liike an otiose syllable, like the quondam British
"phonematic" for "phonemic."
VK
> > you get pointers to almost 2000 pages many of them being maintained
> > by various European universities and departments bearing that name.
I hope that will not go into yet another discussion "What side of the
globe people do speak English and what side did they forget how do
it" :-) :-|
Let me carefully rephrase myself: in most English-speaking parts of
North America the term "Slavic" is used as the term denoting a
particular branch of Indo-European languages as well as in the names
of relevant departments, book titles etc. "Slavonic" (from medieval
Latin "slavonicus", first attested in English at the beginning of
XVII) is used only in the name "Old Slavonic" a.k.a. "Old Church
Slavonic".
This traditional usage in one particular country(ies) doesn't imply
the same usage in another country(ies).
> > As far as I can tell, there is indeed no such opposition in any
> > Slavic language. I also believe that most of the native Slavic
> > language speakers do not care which of the two English
> > names the English speakers use in English.
No more then you care that say "English language" is "Angliyskiy
yazyk" in Russian or "German language" is "Nemetskiy yazyk" which is
actually if being read etymologically, "The language of mute people",
so people who cannot speak the normal language, once used for all
foreigners. Respectively *slovene / *slavene with regular in Slavic o/
a shift is from *slovesu "speech" (modern Russian "word"), so "all
people speaking the language" - as opposed to ones not able to speak
the language, so foreigners, "mutes". That is a very common pattern
for self-ethnonyms in ancient times, but irrelevant to the present.
Peter T. Daniels
> > > Bash ' "department of slavonic languages" ' into Google and in response
> > > you get pointers to almost 2000 pages many of them being maintained
> > > by various European universities and departments bearing that name.
>
> I hope that will not go into yet another discussion "What side of the
> globe people do speak English and what side did they forget how do
> it" :-) :-|
>
> Let me carefully rephrase myself: in most English-speaking parts of
> North America
That is not, however, what you said yesterday, and if you had said
that yesterday, there would have been no discussion.
VK
> On Jan 12, 11:21 am, VK <schools_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Bash ' "department of slavonic languages" ' into Google and in response
> > > > you get pointers to almost 2000 pages many of them being maintained
> > > > by various European universities and departments bearing that name.
>
> > I hope that will not go into yet another discussion "What side of the
> > globe people do speak English and what side did they forget how do
> > it" :-) :-|
>
> > Let me carefully rephrase myself: in most English-speaking parts of
> > North America
>
> That is not, however, what you said yesterday, and if you had said
> that yesterday, there would have been no discussion.
With all my respect, in your original post the problem was not
attributed to a particular country neither, you just said "The new
Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!"
The Cambridge itself is not a sample of a strict terms usage. The
relevant department is called "Department of Slavonic Studies" which
is a bit strange name for the American English but grace to "Slavonic"
retained and used academically in American English it is fully
understandable and respectful sounding. At the same time googling for
"Slavic languages" at Cambridge site gives us 173 hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=%22Slavic+languages%22+site%3Acam.ac.uk&btnG=Search
and "Slavonic languages" 127 hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=%22Slavonic+languages%22+site%3Acam.ac.uk&btnG=Search
in the most different combinations up to the Cambridge University
Slavonic Society being filed under "Slavic Languages" section and
respectively studying Slavic - not Slavonic then - languages.
As much as I can tell, in the modern British English "Slavic" and
"Slavonic" are still being pretty much interchangeable terms with
"Slavonic" having a heavier academical context so broadly used in
names of organizations, departments and societies: while "Slavic" is
more oftenly used in reference to language(s) itself.
Paul J Kriha
>On Jan 12, 11:21 am, VK <schools_r...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > Bash ' "department of slavonic languages" ' into Google and in response
>> > > you get pointers to almost 2000 pages many of them being maintained
>> > > by various European universities and departments bearing that name.
>>
>> I hope that will not go into yet another discussion "What side of the
>> globe people do speak English and what side did they forget how do
>> it" :-) :-|
>>
>> Let me carefully rephrase myself: in most English-speaking parts of
>> North America
>
>That is not, however, what you said yesterday, and if you had said
>that yesterday, there would have been no discussion.
Yeap. :-)
>> the term "Slavic" is used as the term denoting a
>> particular branch of Indo-European languages as well as in the names
>> of relevant departments, book titles etc. "Slavonic" (from medieval
>> Latin "slavonicus", first attested in English at the beginning of
>> XVII) is used only in the name "Old Slavonic" a.k.a. "Old Church
>> Slavonic".
>>
>> This traditional usage in one particular country(ies) doesn't imply
>> the same usage in another country(ies).
>>
>> > > As far as I can tell, there is indeed no such opposition in any
>> > > Slavic language. I also believe that most of the native Slavic
>> > > language speakers do not care which of the two English
>> > > names the English speakers use in English.
>>
>> No more then you care that say "English language" is "Angliyskiy
>> yazyk" in Russian or "German language" is "Nemetskiy yazyk" which is
>> actually if being read etymologically, "The language of mute people",
Read etymologically? Relatively only a handful people are aware
of 1000 years old etymological relationship with "mute".
I can't type Cyrillics easily, I give you Czech versions to show you
the difference between "mute" and "German". It was probably
the Western Slavs who were first Slavs to come into contact
with Celts and later Germans. BTW, interesting is, that it was
probably the Celts who were called "non-speaking" first, and
only later the Germans.
"Německý jazyk" = German language
"Němec" = German (person)
"Němčina" = German (language)
"Jazyk němých" = Language of the mute
"Němý" = the mute
"Němota" = the muteness
Unless specifically told, an average Slavic speaker hardly ever
realizes the etymological relationship between these words.
"Němec" was borrowed by other Slavic subfamilies and also
by a number of non-Indo-Euopean languages. This etym.
relationship becomes completely opaque in languages like
Hungarian or Arabic or Turkish(?).
>> so people who cannot speak the normal language, once used for all
>> foreigners. Respectively *slovene / *slavene with regular in Slavic o/
>> a shift is from *slovesu "speech" (modern Russian "word"), so "all
>> people speaking the language" - as opposed to ones not able to speak
>> the language, so foreigners, "mutes". That is a very common pattern
>> for self-ethnonyms in ancient times, but irrelevant to the present.
yes, of course.
pjk
John Atkinson
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote...
>
>> > The new Cambridge Green volume is called "The Slavic Languages"!!
>
>> As Comrie says in the first line of the Intro to "The Slavonic
>> languages":
>That would be the Routledge volume (Comrie & Corbett)?
Indeed.
>> "The Slavonic languages (usually called the Slavic languages in the
>> United States) are ..."
>
>> Maybe CUP has emigrated to the other Cambridge?
>
> That's almost exactly what I said to Helen Barton, the Ling & Anthro
> editor. She said Bernard's fine with it! (Clackson also has "Slavic.")
Who's the author (editor if it's multi-authored) of the new Cambridge
book? How have they differentiated it from the Routledge one? The
latter is probably the best book in that Routledge series (of those I've
seen), so the Cambridge one would have to have some special feature for
it to sell, I reckon.
John.
Peter T. Daniels
The author is "Sussex." With the exception of the Celtic volume, the
Cambridge volumes usually are single-authored and do not devote
separate chapters to each language (I didn't buy Slavic at the LSA
because it's in hardcover only and wouldn't match the rest of my set).
I'm sure you know Masica's Indo-Aryan; Posner's Romance is oriented
primarily historically; Harbert's Germanic (also just out, but pbk.
original) is descriptive but (a) resolutely generatively oriented and
(b) interested in cross-family phenomena rather than the
differentiation of languages/dialects. (But I'm finishing Clackson's
IE before turning to Gmc.)
Shibatani's Ainu and Japanese and Sohn's Korean are pretty much
synchronic descriptions; Norman's Chinese is more balanced; the four
American volumes and Dixon's two versions of Australian are
necessarily more schematic.
Robert Hetzron finished about half of the Afroasiatc volume, and the
ms. has been floating around since the onset of his clinical
depression and his untimely death -- first with Alan Kaye, then with
John Huehnergard. It's looking for a Chadicist to complete the parts
that Robert didn't feel comfortable with. Meanwhile I'm surprised that
the Heine & Nurse survey of African languages was published by
Cambridge as a stand-alone rather than in the Green series -- it's a
good fit.
Many years ago, Jim Matisoff told me he'd do Southeast Asia after the
STED had gotten off to a good start (which it now has), and we
recently saw the claim that Blust's Austronesian has been withdrawn
from the series.
Seems like Iranian is the most prominently orphaned family; Baltic
probably couldn't hope for more than what it got in Comrie's Soviet
Union anyway, and the IE isolates presumably are to be left out
entirely.
Nikolaj
>
>> What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
>> distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>
> the adjectives Slovak(ian), Slovenian and Slavonic, in that order:
>
> слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
> slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
>
> pjk
In the languages of ex-Yu there are:
"Slovakian" in Slovene is "slovaški" in all others it is "slovački"
Other two are more interesting: first "Slovenian", then "Slav(on)ic":
Slovene: "slovenski, slovanski"
Croatian and Bosnian: "slovenski, slavenski"
Serbian: "slovenački, slovenski"
Macedonian: "slovenečki, slovenski"
Serbian (and Montenegrian?) and Macedonian use "slovenski" with meaning
"Slavonic", and in Slovenian, Croatian and Bosnian the same word means
"Slovenian".
Paul J Kriha
IIRC, it gets even more complex if you include Slovak language and
adjectives "Slovak".
I remember having problems while booking train and airline tickets
in the "South". Between Polish, Czech, and some South Slavic languages
some months have the same or almost the same Slavic cognate names
but they are in fact different months.
My theory is, that it so, because harvest comes earlier in the South. :-)
pjk
Nikolaj
> "Nikolaj" <nikolaj...@bla.si> wrote in message news:frk9nu$rc0$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Paul J Kriha pravi:
>>>> What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
>>>> distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>>> Here you have the Russian and Czech masculine genders of
>>> the adjectives Slovak(ian), Slovenian and Slavonic, in that order:
>>>
>>> слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
>>> slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
>>>
>>> pjk
>> In the languages of ex-Yu there are:
>>
>> "Slovakian" in Slovene is "slovaški" in all others it is "slovački"
>>
>> Other two are more interesting: first "Slovenian", then "Slav(on)ic":
>>
>> Slovene: "slovenski, slovanski"
>> Croatian and Bosnian: "slovenski, slavenski"
>> Serbian: "slovenački, slovenski"
>> Macedonian: "slovenečki, slovenski"
>>
>> Serbian (and Montenegrian?) and Macedonian use "slovenski" with meaning
>> "Slavonic", and in Slovenian, Croatian and Bosnian the same word means
>> "Slovenian".
>
> IIRC, it gets even more complex if you include Slovak language and
> adjectives "Slovak".
I wondered how they say it. It would be nice, if someone would add those
names for Slovak and Polish.
> I remember having problems while booking train and airline tickets
> in the "South". Between Polish, Czech, and some South Slavic languages
> some months have the same or almost the same Slavic cognate names
> but they are in fact different months.
> My theory is, that it so, because harvest comes earlier in the South. :-)
It probably must have been Croatia, others use international names. For
Slovene, there are Slavic names as well, but they are rarely used. What
is interesting even Slovene and Croatian have one month difference, in
Slovene 'prosinec' is january, and in Croatian 'prosinac' is december,
so I don't think that theory is valid.
A little googling, and I have found the names even for Czech and Polish:
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesec
If it is correct - Slovenian and Croatian names are correct - I can only
say: what a mixup...
Paul J Kriha
I don't dare to do Slovak, my knowledge of it is not too bad, but it's purely passive,
however, here is Czech for "Slovenian", "Slav(on)ic", "Slovak(ian)", "Slavonian"
(all adjectives in singular masculine form):
Czech: "slovinský, slovanský, slovenský, slavonský"
> > I remember having problems while booking train and airline tickets
> > in the "South". Between Polish, Czech, and some South Slavic languages
> > some months have the same or almost the same Slavic cognate names
> > but they are in fact different months.
> > My theory is, that it so, because harvest comes earlier in the South. :-)
>
> It probably must have been Croatia, others use international names. For
> Slovene, there are Slavic names as well, but they are rarely used. What
> is interesting even Slovene and Croatian have one month difference, in
> Slovene 'prosinec' is january, and in Croatian 'prosinac' is december,
> so I don't think that theory is valid.
I should have included a smiley, that "theory" of mine wasn't really
meant to be serious.
As far as this 'December/January' goes, obviously Slovenes
got it quite wrong and Croats are dead right. Poor people "prosí"(beg/ask)
for gifts and receive gifts on two separate days in December(prosinec),
not in January (leden). Warning: that's me going ajoking again! :-)
> A little googling, and I have found the names even for Czech and Polish:
>
> http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesec
>
> If it is correct - Slovenian and Croatian names are correct -
Czech is almost correct, to be totally pedantic, there is one typo, one
short "i" instead of a long "í". Czech for September is "září", not "záři".
As it stands "záři" is a valid word, it happens to be an accusative or
locative of "zář" or "záře" (light glare), as in "polární zář" (aurora borealis).
> I can only say: what a mixup...
We are all unfortunate victims of dictionary writers' job protection
conspiracy that is going on unchecked for centuries.
(Eh. No need for any smiley here.)
BTW, what does "svibanj" and "rujan" mean?
And what's "sušec"(March)? To me it doesn't look like having anything
to do with cattle getting pregnant like it does in some other languages.
Does Croatian "ožujak" mean the same thing as Czech "březen"?
That is, cattle getting "březí"?
pjk
Craoi...@gmail.com
Polish seems to be correct. But yes, it is quite a mixup. In fact, the
names of the months are one of the reasons why I think I am never
going to learn Czech.
Craoi...@gmail.com
I wonder why I can't read Paul's and Nikolaj's answer to this one.
They are shown in the tree view, but the posts themselves cannot be
viewed. Have yiz cancelled them?
Nikolaj
> I wonder why I can't read Paul's and Nikolaj's answer to this one.
> They are shown in the tree view, but the posts themselves cannot be
> viewed. Have yiz cancelled them?
Did you succed in reading the messages? I didn't cancel it. But I only
wrote a line: "Haha, if the names of the months are the criteria, then I
don't speak Slovene... :) "
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha pravi:
> >>>>>> What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
> >>>>>> distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>
>
> Russian: слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
> Czech: slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
> Slovak: slovensk?, ?, ?
> Slovene: slovaški, slovenski, slovanski
> Croatian and Bosnian: slovački, slovenski, slavenski
> Serbian: slovački, slovenački, slovenski
> Macedonian: slovački, slovenečki, slovenski
>
> > I don't dare to do Slovak, my knowledge of it is not too bad, but it's purely passive,
> > however, here is Czech for "Slovenian", "Slav(on)ic", "Slovak(ian)", "Slavonian"
> > (all adjectives in singular masculine form):
> >
> > Czech: "slovinský, slovanský, slovenský, slavonský"
>
> guess, the same root in all languages: slavons...
Similarly to Slavonia being a district of Croatia, there is a part of
Eastern Moravia called "Slovácko", or "Moravské Slovácko". I suppose
Slovácko overlaps eastern border of Czech Republic with Slovakia.
I don't know what is the Slovácko's name in other Slavic languages
and if it collides in any way with other names.
> > I should have included a smiley, that "theory" of mine wasn't really
> > meant to be serious.
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> >> http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesec
> >>
> > Czech is almost correct, to be totally pedantic, there is one typo, one
> > short "i" instead of a long "í". Czech for September is "září", not "záři".
> > As it stands "záři" is a valid word, it happens to be an accusative or
> > locative of "zář" or "záře" (light glare), as in "polární zář" (aurora borealis).
>
> I have corrected it.
>
>
> >> I can only say: what a mixup...
> >
> > We are all unfortunate victims of dictionary writers' job protection
> > conspiracy that is going on unchecked for centuries.
> > (Eh. No need for any smiley here.)
> >
> >
> > BTW, what does "svibanj" and "rujan" mean?
>
> It seems that rujan comes from deer's "troating", in Slovene that would
> be "rukanje" and in Croatian "rujanje". The page compares it with Czech
> "říjen"
Oh, of course, Cz "říje" (time of deer mating) is a cognate of "ruja(nje)".
> And the name svibanj comes from a plant called 'sviba'. The page says
> that the older name was "rožnjak", which is again one month difference
> from Slovene 'rožnik' (=flowery).
>
> http://wapedia.mobi/hr/Rujan
> http://wapedia.mobi/hr/Svibanj
>
> http://wapedia.mobi/hr/Sviba
>
> > And what's "sušec"(March)? To me it doesn't look like having anything
> > to do with cattle getting pregnant like it does in some other languages.
>
> 'Suh' means 'dry', it is a dry month, I guess.
I see.
Not in the North, though, with the slosh of melting ice and snow
often still around the countryside. :-)
> > Does Croatian "ožujak" mean the same thing as Czech "březen"?
> > That is, cattle getting "březí"?
>
> No. That page says: "it is assumed, that is comes from the word "lie"
> ("laž"), which could mean variable, unstable weather of that month."
Okay, a cognate of the Cz "lež" then.
Or the Cz "žulit", meaning "to trick".
pjk
> http://wapedia.mobi/hr/O%C5%BEujak
Paul J Kriha
news:27c345b7-48c8-40c7...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
I haven't cancelled mine.
I wrote:
<quote>
Don't you need to master at least 1000 word vocabulary to be able
to have the simplest of conversations in any language. Would the
extra twelve (meaningful) words be really such an insurmountable
obstacle? :-)
I can think of many _real_ showstoppers for you, such as many complex
verbal tenses combined with three aspects. Handling correctly cases,
animity and "humanity" of many noun paradigms as well as of adjectives,
are often things the foreigners find impossible to master even after
having lived in the country for decades.
BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
everybody would still understand you. :-)
How long does it take to learn an ordered list of twelve words anyway? :-)
I wonder if anybody ever decided not to learn English because
the weekdays had difficult to learn "arbitrary" names reflecting
some old "long-forgotten" paganic deities.
</quote>
pjk
lora...@cs.com
wrote:
> "Nikolaj" <nikolaj.kor...@bla.si> wrote in messagenews:frqigc$ji5$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
related info:
"rut (2)
"animal mating season" (originally of deer), c.1410, from O.Fr. rut,
ruit, from L.L. rutigum (nom. rugitus) "a bellowing," from pp. of L.
rugire "to bellow." The verb is recorded from c.1625. "
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> Similarly to Slavonia being a district of Croatia,
Slavonia never was a part of Croatia (as well as Dalmatia) before the
creation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croates and Slovenes (laater
Yugoslavia). In the Austria.Hungarian Empire it was the Kingdom of
Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Slavonia02.png
It means that Slavonia and Dalmatia were separate lands during the
whole history, untill they were treated as the same administrative
district under the name of "Croatian Banovina" on the eve of WWII
(1939 ).
DV
Craoi...@gmail.com
wrote:
> <Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
They would, because I would certainly confuse them with Polish month-
names.
>
> BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
> everybody would still understand you. :-)
I think I am going to learn Slovak anyway. It is easier and everybody
will understand me anyway.
>
Andrew Woode
wrote:
> >> Polish seems to be correct. But yes, it is quite a mixup. In fact, the
> >> names of the months are one of the reasons why I think I am never
> >> going to learn Czech.
>
>
> BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
> everybody would still understand you. :-)
>
Not _quite_ everyone, from my personal experience; I had pupils in
Liberec in 1995-6 who didn't get all their English months right, and a
campsite on Lake Lipno in 1999 failed to interpret the month name on
my British passport correctly when entering it in figures on their
computer.
(But you are right that 12 words are not a great burden on the memory;
I never found remembering the Czech months to be much of a problem.)
Paul J Kriha
news:167a6b17-2fbe-4df5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On 20 Mar, 04:02, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > >> Polish seems to be correct. But yes, it is quite a mixup. In fact, the
> > >> names of the months are one of the reasons why I think I am never
> > >> going to learn Czech.
>
> > BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
> > everybody would still understand you. :-)
>
> Not _quite_ everyone, from my personal experience; I had pupils in
> Liberec in 1995-6 who didn't get all their English months right, and a
> campsite on Lake Lipno in 1999 failed to interpret the month name on
> my British passport correctly when entering it in figures on their
> computer.
Well, I did say Slovak or German.
I didn't say so, but admitedly I was thinking of trying both languages,
Slovak and German (not English with English pronunciation) and
I was also thinking of talking with adults, not young pupils.
> (But you are right that 12 words are not a great burden on the memory;
> I never found remembering the Czech months to be much of a problem.)
T's right. It doesn't take much time to learn twelve Czech names.
However, the real problems involving divorce layers start when you
book holidays in other Slavic countries and without giving it a second
thought you automatically assume that Slovenian "prosinec" and
Croatian "srpanj" and "listopad" are the same months as Czech
"prosinec", "srpen", and "listopad" respectively.
pjk
"srp" = sickle
"list" = leaf
"pad" = fall
Paul J Kriha
news:be7a3b76-7327-4174...@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
What's wrong with you already? Your horse is so high that
your head is permanently stuck in the clouds.
Obviously, by Croatia I meant the present state of Croatia.
Don't maps in your country show Slavonija and Posavina
as parts of Eastern Croatia? All my atlases certainly do.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:218bb93c-19e6-4f3a...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>On Mar 20, 6:02 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> <Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:27c345b7-48c8-40c7...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...>On Mar 18, 12:21 pm,
>Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >I wonder why I can't read Paul's and Nikolaj's answer to this one.
>> >They are shown in the tree view, but the posts themselves cannot be
>> >viewed. Have yiz cancelled them?
>>
>> I haven't cancelled mine.
>>
>> I wrote:
>>
>> <quote>
>> Don't you need to master at least 1000 word vocabulary to be able
>> to have the simplest of conversations in any language. Would the
>> extra twelve (meaningful) words be really such an insurmountable
>> obstacle? :-)
>
>They would, because I would certainly confuse them with Polish month-
>names.
>
>> BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
>> everybody would still understand you. :-)
>
>I think I am going to learn Slovak anyway. It is easier and everybody
>will understand me anyway.
If you understand Polish, then you indeed find Slovak easier to learn
and understand. Having learned Slovak, you may find it relatively
easy to converse with Czechs and Moravians which beyond extremely
rudimentary stuff is virtually impossible with Polish only.
So it might be a good scheme. The only real problem might be
the lack of good selection of Slovak textbooks, DVDs and tapes.
You will find it easier choosing from wide selection of various
good Czech (and Polish) language teaching tools than finding
equivalent Slovak tools.
pjk
Andrew Woode
wrote:
> "Andrew Woode" <andrew_wo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:167a6b17-2fbe-4df5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On 20 Mar, 04:02, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> > wrote:
>
> > > >> Polish seems to be correct. But yes, it is quite a mixup. In fact, the
> > > >> names of the months are one of the reasons why I think I am never
> > > >> going to learn Czech.
>
> > > BTW, you could always use Slovak or German months names and
> > > everybody would still understand you. :-)
>
> > Not _quite_ everyone, from my personal experience; I had pupils in
> > Liberec in 1995-6 who didn't get all their English months right, and a
> > campsite on Lake Lipno in 1999 failed to interpret the month name on
> > my British passport correctly when entering it in figures on their
> > computer.
>
> Well, I did say Slovak or German.
>
> I didn't say so, but admitedly I was thinking of trying both languages,
> Slovak and German (not English with English pronunciation) and
> I was also thinking of talking with adults, not young pupils.
The pronunciation shouldn't have been an issue in the second case at
least, where they were reading the English; and that case did involve
adults (who didn't seem to be great linguists, judging from the
complaints of other campers; I didn't try to speak anything but Czech
with them).
But there may well be an age issue; my pupils were already of a
generation which had minimal media exposure to Slovak. (About half of
them were actually learning most subjects through German in a
bilingual stream - I presume those who got it wrong were among the
ones who were in the normal Czech system).
Nikolaj
>>> Czech: "slovinský, slovanský, slovenský, slavonský"
>> Yes, you wrote all those already above. Except Slavonian, which has, I
>> guess, the same root in all languages: slavons...
>
> Similarly to Slavonia being a district of Croatia, there is a part of
> Eastern Moravia called "Slovácko", or "Moravské Slovácko". I suppose
> Slovácko overlaps eastern border of Czech Republic with Slovakia.
>
> I don't know what is the Slovácko's name in other Slavic languages
> and if it collides in any way with other names.
Except for Czech and Slovak languages, I would say that it does collide.
I don't think it has gotten any specific name in Slovene, so when
someone would refer to that district, he would probably use the original
name with the local ending. So maybe "Slovaška" (the state) and
"Moravska Slovaška" (district).
>>> And what's "sušec"(March)? To me it doesn't look like having anything
>>> to do with cattle getting pregnant like it does in some other languages.
>> 'Suh' means 'dry', it is a dry month, I guess.
>
> I see.
>
> Not in the North, though, with the slosh of melting ice and snow
> often still around the countryside. :-)
Yeah, well, it seems here as the winter has barely started: there was
the first snow this winter a few days back and cold temperatues. But
there was some kind of drought before that, I even watered some plants
(which are blossoming already from November). Weather has gone crazy in
recent years...
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha pravi:
>
> >>> Czech: "slovinský, slovanský, slovenský, slavonský"
>
> >> Yes, you wrote all those already above. Except Slavonian, which has, I
> >> guess, the same root in all languages: slavons...
> >
> > Similarly to Slavonia being a district of Croatia, there is a part of
> > Eastern Moravia called "Slovácko", or "Moravské Slovácko". I suppose
> > Slovácko overlaps eastern border of Czech Republic with Slovakia.
> >
> > I don't know what is the Slovácko's name in other Slavic languages
> > and if it collides in any way with other names.
>
> Except for Czech and Slovak languages, I would say that it does collide.
> I don't think it has gotten any specific name in Slovene, so when
> someone would refer to that district, he would probably use the original
> name with the local ending. So maybe "Slovaška" (the state) and
> "Moravska Slovaška" (district).
In Czech there are distinct words "Slovácko" and "Slovensko".
"Slovácko" is a cultural region with a distinct dialect which
overlaps from Moravian part of Czech Republic into Slovakia
(i.e."Slovensko").
I suppose "Moravska Slovaška" in Slovene language is okay,
but what would you call the part of "Slovácko" which is not in
Moravia but in Western Slovakia?
"Slovaška Slovaška"? :-)
> >>> And what's "sušec"(March)? To me it doesn't look like having anything
> >>> to do with cattle getting pregnant like it does in some other languages.
> >> 'Suh' means 'dry', it is a dry month, I guess.
> >
> > I see.
> >
> > Not in the North, though, with the slosh of melting ice and snow
> > often still around the countryside. :-)
>
> Yeah, well, it seems here as the winter has barely started: there was
> the first snow this winter a few days back and cold temperatues. But
> there was some kind of drought before that, I even watered some plants
> (which are blossoming already from November). Weather has gone crazy in
> recent years...
The weather down here in the Pacific is also not what it used to be.
It's all fault of the French, of course. Some people say the weather
has gone extra lousy ever since they stopped testing their atomic
bombs down here.
pjk
Craoi...@gmail.com
<paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> <Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:218bb93c-19e6-4f3a...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >On Mar 20, 6:02 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >> <Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Well, you are basically right, but I have, years ago, purchased
several textbooks in both Czech and Slovak, so I have quite an
impressive set of tools already. :)
Nikolaj
>>> I don't know what is the Slovácko's name in other Slavic languages
>>> and if it collides in any way with other names.
>> Except for Czech and Slovak languages, I would say that it does collide.
>> I don't think it has gotten any specific name in Slovene, so when
>> someone would refer to that district, he would probably use the original
>> name with the local ending. So maybe "Slovaška" (the state) and
>> "Moravska Slovaška" (district).
>
> In Czech there are distinct words "Slovácko" and "Slovensko".
> "Slovácko" is a cultural region with a distinct dialect which
> overlaps from Moravian part of Czech Republic into Slovakia
> (i.e."Slovensko").
>
> I suppose "Moravska Slovaška" in Slovene language is okay,
> but what would you call the part of "Slovácko" which is not in
> Moravia but in Western Slovakia?
> "Slovaška Slovaška"? :-)
Yes ;) And then there are also the names for whole dictrict:
Moravsko-Slovaška Slovaška or Češko-Slovaška Slovaška :)
>>>>> And what's "sušec"(March)? To me it doesn't look like having anything
>>>>> to do with cattle getting pregnant like it does in some other languages.
>>>> 'Suh' means 'dry', it is a dry month, I guess.
>>> I see.
>>>
>>> Not in the North, though, with the slosh of melting ice and snow
>>> often still around the countryside. :-)
>> Yeah, well, it seems here as the winter has barely started: there was
>> the first snow this winter a few days back and cold temperatues. But
>> there was some kind of drought before that, I even watered some plants
>> (which are blossoming already from November). Weather has gone crazy in
>> recent years...
>
> The weather down here in the Pacific is also not what it used to be.
> It's all fault of the French, of course. Some people say the weather
> has gone extra lousy ever since they stopped testing their atomic
> bombs down here.
You should blame the Greenpeace.
But I am not complaining, I don't like the snow very much as I was born
down there in the no-snow land. And the intense heats of summer also
stop in recent years in July to be followed by a rainy August, which
suits me as well. Maybe it is time to invent new Slavic names for
months: August - "dežec", March would become "lažec" (what is more lying
as the first winter snow two weeks before the beginning of spring) and
November should change to "cvetnik" (after flower/cvet, the time when
the spring flowers blossom) :)
piotrpanek
> Paul J Kriha pravi:
>>>>>>> What are the different words in various Slav(on)ic languages to
>>>>>>> distinguish between Slovakian, Slovenian and Slavonic?
>
>
> Russian: слoвацкий, словенский, славянский
> Czech: slovenský, slovinský, slovanský
> Slovak: slovensk?, ?, ?
> Slovene: slovaški, slovenski, slovanski
> Croatian and Bosnian: slovački, slovenski, slavenski
> Serbian: slovački, slovenački, slovenski
> Macedonian: slovački, slovenečki, slovenski
>
Polish: słowacki, słoweński, słowiański (slawoński for East Croatian
region) and słowiński for the region of Pomerania.
Moravian Slovacko seems not to have polonised name.
pzdr
piotrek
Craoi...@gmail.com
<DROSOPHILApiotrpanekCEANORHABDI...@gazetaARABIDOPSIS.plESCHERICHIA>
wrote:
like Slowacja Morawska?
I have read a Polish translation of "All the world's beauty" by
Seifert, and the translator spoke about "morawsko-slowackie
pogranicze" or something like that, which probably meant Slovácko.
BTW, where do the Czech dialects end and the Slovak ones begin? Is the
dialectological boundary simply the extension of the r^, or?
Andrew Woode
That certainly seems to be the view of the _Historická Mluvnice
Češtiny_ by
Lamprecht/Ślosar/Bauer (p 85 and the maps on p 422 etc).
piotrpanek
>> Moravian Slovacko seems not to have polonised name.
>>
> In German, I have seen it called Mährische Slowakei. How would you
> like Slowacja Morawska?
Google says that there are such attmepts, eg:
'Tereny po "czeskiej stronie" nazywa się Morawską Słowacją, zaś po
słowackiej Zagórzem. Na Słowacji niewielu uważa Zagórzan za Słowaków,
nikt nie uważa ich gwary za język słowacki.'
<http://wyborcza.pl/1,76842,4787909.html>
Translation:
'Areas at "Czech side" [of Morava River] are called Moravian Slovakia,
while at Slovak one - Zagórze (=Transmontania). In Slovakia Zagorians
are rarely recognised as Slovaks, noone recognises their dialect as
Slovak labguage.'
But tourist folders usually left Czech (Moravian?) name - Slovacko (with
"v" letter, which is foreign for Polish script). Sometimes it gets
disclaimer - "not to be mistaken with Slovakia".
>
> I have read a Polish translation of "All the world's beauty" by
> Seifert, and the translator spoke about "morawsko-slowackie
> pogranicze" or something like that, which probably meant Slovácko.
"Morawsko-słowackie pogranicze" means just "Moravian-Slovak borderline
area". The same paradigm would be used in frases like "Pireneje leżą na
pograniczu francusko-hiszpańskim".
>
> BTW, where do the Czech dialects end and the Slovak ones begin? Is the
> dialectological boundary simply the extension of the r^, or?
Well, I know nothing about Moravian dialects...
pzdr
piotrek