Harač
Dušan Vukotić
non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( خراج kharaj tax, a
tribute, toll). There are the Persian words شریتا sharītā (king) and
شاهوار shāhwār (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can
be related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. царь). On the
other hand, there is the Persian transitive verb آراستن (arastan)
with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti
(arrange; uređenje 'system, regime, order') and ukrasiti (to
decorate).
Comparing Turkish haraç (racketeering, extortion) to the Serbian word
harati (plunder, ravage) we can come to the conclusion that these two
words are closely related.
Finally, Serbian word carina (toll, tax) seems to be derived from the
noun car (tsar, emperor) - the tax that must be paid to the emperor.
My question is: is it possible that the words for kings like Lat. rex,
Slavic kralj, Russ. tsar, Pers. Sharukeen were all derived from the
same ur-basis or the same agglutinated proto IE form *hor-gon? :-)
grammatim
I sure didn't have to wait long for you to again try to derive a non-
IE word from Serbian.
The English name "Sargon" has nothing whatsoever to do with IE "shah";
it is from Akkadian sharru 'king'/
Dušan Vukotić
Your head must have been "derived" from a rotten log, you idiot!
Why wouldn't you visit your shrink and try to understand where all
those delusions are coming from... from which part of your fucked-up
mind?
> The English name "Sargon" has nothing whatsoever to do with IE "shah";
> it is from Akkadian sharru 'king'/
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
grammatim
Turkish xxx is "closely related" to Serbian yyy. Was it just yeterday
that you claimed I was making up the fact that you frequently assign
Serbian etymologies to non-IE words?
> > The English name "Sargon" has nothing whatsoever to do with IE "shah";
> > it is from Akkadian sharru 'king'/
>
> Are you sure you know what you are talking about?-
Of course. The fellow's name was Sharru-ukin, something like 'the king
establishes', and "Sargon" is the English version of the Greek version
of the Hebrew verson.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> Turkish xxx is "closely related" to Serbian yyy. Was it just yeterday
> that you claimed I was making up the fact that you frequently assign
> Serbian etymologies to non-IE words?
But you missed one thing: Persian kharaj (tax, a tribute, toll).
Turkish, if you didn't know, borrowed a great number of words from
Persian. In addition, Persian kharaj is most probably related to
Serbian krađa (theft, stealing; Russ. кража, украденные вещи; Pol.
kradzież, Cz. krádež; OCSl кражда)
> > > The English name "Sargon" has nothing whatsoever to do with IE "shah";
> > > it is from Akkadian sharru 'king'/
>
> > Are you sure you know what you are talking about?-
>
> Of course. The fellow's name was Sharru-ukin, something like 'the king
> establishes', and "Sargon" is the English version of the Greek version
> of the Hebrew verson.
We have still one IE language in that area - Kurdish. Encyclopedia
Britannica supposed that Sargon (Sharukeen) was the "father" of the
Russian word tsar. There are other theories too, but none of them can
be taken as definitive and unquestionable.
Harlan Messinger
> Turkish word haraççı, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
> non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( خراج kharaj tax, a
> tribute, toll). There are the Persian words شریتا sharītā (king) and
> شاهوار shāhwār (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can
> be related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. царь). On the
> other hand, there is the Persian transitive verb آراستن (arastan)
> with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
> which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti
> (arrange; uređenje 'system, regime, order') and ukrasiti (to
> decorate).
What exactly is it that you think makes "arrange" an "obvious" cognate
of "arastan", assuming that it is one at all? Do you have any idea where
"arrange" came from?
anal...@hotmail.com
If the word for "king" is from semitic languages (weren't they
organized into what we would call kingdoms today way before IE people)
then it is only an assumption that PIE had a word for king. Perhaps
when the semitic "king" came to the IE world, IE dialects we can
recognize now were already in existence.
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > Turkish word haraççı, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
> > non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( خراج kharaj tax, a
> > tribute, toll). There are the Persian words شریتا sharītā (king) and
> > شاهوار shāhwār (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can
> > be related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. царь). On the
> > other hand, there is the Persian transitive verb آراستن (arastan)
> > with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
> > which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti
> > (arrange; uređenje 'system, regime, order') and ukrasiti (to
> > decorate).
>
> What exactly is it that you think makes "arrange" an "obvious" cognate
> of "arastan", assuming that it is one at all? Do you have any idea where
> "arrange" came from?
First, Serb. u-rediti (arrange; Cz. za-řídit; po-řádat; Russ.
приводить в по-рядок; also Serb. noun uređenje 'system, regime'; Cz. z-
řízení 'regime') is a clear cognate to English arrange and organize.
Also, English raw is a cognate to Serbian red (raw, line; Cz. řádek;
rząd; Russ. ряд), because all these words are derived from PIE *hreig-
(Gmc. *hreig-vo; Ger. Reihe from 'reig', OHG rihan) - ultimately from
*hor-gon (Gmc. hring, Slav. krug, Lat. circus; Gr. κρίκος/κίρκος).
Greek ἄριστος (best, most useful, noblest) is a cognat to Serb.
koristan (useful; cf. gr. ἀρωγός useful, beneficial) as well as
Serb. krasan 'fine, beautiful, gorgeous' (Russ. пре-красный, Cz.
krásný); and ukrasiti 'decorate' (Russ. украшать; Cz. při-krášlit is
related to both Pers. arastan and Gr. ἄριστος. Persian 'circle' is
جرگه (jarga) or جرگه (jargeh).
fr...@bluemail.ch
> it is from Akkadian sharru 'king'/
And the Akkadian sharru 'king' is derived from
Magdalenian ShA RAG, ruler ShA ruler RAG.
RAG originally meant the line of head and back
of an animal in cave art, the first line drawn by
the Paleolithic artists according to Leroi Gourhan,
strongly evocative of the whole animal. Greek
rakhos 'back, mountain ridge', German Rücken
'back' Bergrücken 'mountain ridge' ragen 'to loom,
tower', German recht 'right' and Recht 'law',
English right, Latin rex 'king' regina 'queen',
Sanskrit raj 'king' - kings represent what is right,
their word is the law, they tower above the society
and appear with a straight back in public, their
back enforced and prolonged by a throne,
their stature heightened by a crown.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Turkish word hara??????, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
: non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( ???????? kharaj tax, a
: tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ?????????? shar??t?? (king) and
Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll
look up some other sources to get a more definite answer.
: ???????????? sh??hw??r (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can
: be related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. ????????). On the
: other hand, there is the Persian transitive verb ???????????? (arastan)
: with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
: which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti
: (arrange; ure??enje 'system, regime, order') and ukrasiti (to
: decorate).
: Comparing Turkish hara?? (racketeering, extortion) to the Serbian word
Dušan Vukotić
No, it cannot be from Semitic, but it is possible that Semitic and IE
used the same initial word to describe a circle or a round object [cf.
Aram. qrqws (circle, ring); Arab. daira (circle), Akk. sâru (rotate,
turn, to circle), sûrtu (circle)]. It could be interesting to mention
that Turks borrowed Arabic daira (circle) and according to that word
they named a musical instrument - tambourine (daire; because of its
round shape; lit. circle), which later was spread across the North
Africa (Arab. bendeir), Europe (Serb. daire, Spanish pandero - via
Arabic) and Asia (Azerb. doire, Pers. daire).
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> In sci.lang Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in <1a00695b-636d-446d-ba41-b7bccf7f4...@o27g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>:
> : Turkish word hara??????, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
> : non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( ???????? kharaj tax, a
> : tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ?????????? shar??t?? (king) and
>
> Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll
> look up some other sources to get a more definite answer.
>
Sanskrit word kara (royal revenue , toll , tax , tribute) and this
word is recorded in Mahābhārata; so it is hardly possible that it was
borrowed from Arabic a few hundreds years B. C. Also, Sanskrit hara
means 'taking away , carrying off , removing , destroying; destroyer'
and it matches to Serbian harati 'destroy'.
DV
Harlan Messinger
> On May 4, 2:07 am, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>> Turkish word haraççı, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
>>> non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( خراج kharaj tax, a
>>> tribute, toll). There are the Persian words شریتا sharītā (king) and
>>> شاهوار shāhwār (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can
>>> be related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. царь). On the
>>> other hand, there is the Persian transitive verb آراستن (arastan)
>>> with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
>>> which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti
>>> (arrange; uređenje 'system, regime, order') and ukrasiti (to
>>> decorate).
>> What exactly is it that you think makes "arrange" an "obvious" cognate
>> of "arastan", assuming that it is one at all? Do you have any idea where
>> "arrange" came from?
>
> First, Serb. u-rediti (arrange; Cz. za-řídit; po-řádat; Russ.
> приводить в по-рядок; also Serb. noun uređenje 'system, regime'; Cz. z-
> řízení 'regime') is a clear cognate to English arrange and organize.
So you think if you throw in a bunch of other words that don't look any
closer to "arrange" than "arastan" does and use the word "clear" instead
of "obvious", you've accomplished something.
> Also, English raw is a cognate to Serbian red (raw, line; Cz. řádek;
And now you go into completely irrelevant territory.
> rząd; Russ. ряд), because all these words are derived from PIE *hreig-
> (Gmc. *hreig-vo; Ger. Reihe from 'reig', OHG rihan) - ultimately from
> *hor-gon (Gmc. hring, Slav. krug, Lat. circus; Gr. κρίκος/κίρκος).
> Greek ἄριστος (best, most useful, noblest) is a cognat to Serb.
Oh, of course, your precious circle. God forbid everything in the
universe shouldn't relate to either clouds or circles.
We're right where we started: you haven't proven anything, and the
length and rambling nature of your "demonstration" certainly shows that
it's the opposite of "obvious".
Dušan Vukotić
And the things are right if they are standing in a row (Ger. Reihe;
Serb. red). Of course, Ger. Rücken is derived from the above mentioned
*hor-gon (hring, circle) and its meaning is the same as Serbian grba/
grbina/hrbat (hump, back; Russ. хребет; Cz. hřbet; related to Lat.
curvo and cervix 'back of the neck'; cf. Serb. krivo 'curved, not
right'). In fact, you can see that Rücken came from OE hrycg, or more
precise, from OHG hrukki, which sounded very similar (almost the same)
to Slavic krug 'circle'. There is a Serbian syntagm 'nositi krkače',
with the meaning "to carry something/someone on the back", and it
shows that Serb. krkača (back) is equal to German Rücken.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
I forgot to say that Greek ῥᾰχις (spine) is also derived from the
"circle" (Gr. κρίκος, Lat. circus).
Dušan Vukotić
OHG rihan is the same word as Serbian ređanje (from *regan-) and
therefore Serb. red (row) must be related to Eng row.
> > rząd; Russ. ряд), because all these words are derived from PIE *hreig-
> > (Gmc. *hreig-vo; Ger. Reihe from 'reig', OHG rihan) - ultimately from
> > *hor-gon (Gmc. hring, Slav. krug, Lat. circus; Gr. κρίκος/κίρκος).
> > Greek ἄριστος (best, most useful, noblest) is a cognat to Serb.
>
> Oh, of course, your precious circle. God forbid everything in the
> universe shouldn't relate to either clouds or circles.
>
> We're right where we started: you haven't proven anything, and the
> length and rambling nature of your "demonstration" certainly shows that
> it's the opposite of "obvious".
Don't say "we" because you are the one who do not understand what I am
talking about; and, please, speak in your own name only.
craoi...@gmail.com
>
>
> Your head must have been "derived" from a rotten log, you idiot!
You are a radically bad man, Dushan.
Harlan Messinger
What does "raw" have to do with this?
>
>>> rząd; Russ. ряд), because all these words are derived from PIE *hreig-
>>> (Gmc. *hreig-vo; Ger. Reihe from 'reig', OHG rihan) - ultimately from
>>> *hor-gon (Gmc. hring, Slav. krug, Lat. circus; Gr. κρίκος/κίρκος).
>>> Greek ἄριστος (best, most useful, noblest) is a cognat to Serb.
>> Oh, of course, your precious circle. God forbid everything in the
>> universe shouldn't relate to either clouds or circles.
>>
>> We're right where we started: you haven't proven anything, and the
>> length and rambling nature of your "demonstration" certainly shows that
>> it's the opposite of "obvious".
>
> Don't say "we" because you are the one who do not understand what I am
> talking about; and, please, speak in your own name only.
If you are unable to explain it without masses and masses of side
explanations of dubious relevance, and then, EVEN THEN, the people you
are talking to don't understand it, then it, by definition, ISN'T
OBVIOUS. Do you know what "obvious" means or don't you?
anal...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
right or wrong he is conducting deep investigations and unlike the
excruciatingly trivial, self-indulgent crap that shows up in threads
such as "special British accents".
Harlan Messinger
> right or wrong he is conducting deep investigations
No, he's pretending to. Making up connections with no basis is not
investigating.
> and unlike the
> excruciatingly trivial, self-indulgent crap that shows up in threads
> such as "special British accents".
The guy calls things "obvious", while unable to explain them without
going off in all directions, into paragraphs and paragraphs of
digressions, and you think *he* isn't self-indulgent?
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Oh, of course, your precious circle. God forbid everything in the
> universe shouldn't relate to either clouds or circles.
Yeah... very good Harlan! You are starting to understand my theory
properly!
Congratulation!
DV
Harlan Messinger
I've understood for a very long time that that was your nonsensical
theory. And, as ever, it all comes down to "because I say so".
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Maybe you should reread what I wrote above and try to think it over
again without any prejudices. Moreover, wouldn't it be more convincing
if you, instead of stubborn denials, pointed out directly to my
"obvious" errors and "futile digressions"? As told you many times
before, there is nothing easiest than to be seating in a bar, drinking
beer and shouting over the swollen tongue and spittle-spiteful lips:
Yo..you kn..knooow noth...eeeeng!
DV
Harlan Messinger
> On May 4, 7:12 pm, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> right or wrong he is conducting deep investigations
>> No, he's pretending to. Making up connections with no basis is not
>> investigating.
>>
>>> and unlike the
>>> excruciatingly trivial, self-indulgent crap that shows up in threads
>>> such as "special British accents".
>> The guy calls things "obvious", while unable to explain them without
>> going off in all directions, into paragraphs and paragraphs of
>> digressions, and you think *he* isn't self-indulgent?
>
> Maybe you should reread what I wrote above and try to think it over
> again without any prejudices.
You wrote that something that you yourself can't explain without massive
verbiage is "obvious". It isn't obvious. Prejudices have nothing to do
with it.
A-R-A-S-T-A-N
and
A-R-R-A-N-G-E
are not *obviously* related, even if they are related at all.
Dušan Vukotić
One thing you seem not to understand: it is a linguistic distinction
or, I would name it, the 'notion distinction'. You must change
something in a word in order to change its meaning. For instance:
Serb. resa means 'fringe' and it was understood as a decoration on
garment (Serb. ukras 'decoration') ; hence the Serb. verb ukrasiti (to
decorate). Through the metonymy this meaning shifted (bifurcated) to
different sememes: krasan (beautiful; Russ. красотка, прекрасный,
красивый) and to the name of red color in Russian (красный).
Therefore, Serb. ukrašen (embellished, ornate, decorated; Russ.
украшенный) is the word of the same origin as urešen (garnish) and, as
you can see, you cannot make fringes (Serb. resa) without arranging
(Serb. urediti, uređen) it into the row (Serb. red).
I hope your perspective and the ability of apprehension is much better
(clearer) after the above explanation.
fr...@bluemail.ch
I wish to add German richtig 'right' Richter 'judge'
richten 'to judge' Regel 'rule' regeln 'to regulate,
settle' - kings were also judges, consider Solomon,
and made the rules and regulations and settled
conflicts.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On May 4, 8:17 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote:> In sci.lang Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in <1a00695b-636d-446d-ba41-b7bccf7f4...@o27g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>:
> > : Turkish word hara??????, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by
> > : non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( ???????? kharaj tax, a
> > : tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ?????????? shar??t?? (king) and
>
> > Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll
> > look up some other sources to get a more definite answer.
acc. to Enc. of Islam II "Kharadj" arabic xara:j comes from greek (via
syriac) khore:gia . in arabic it was attached to the native root <xrj>
and put into a native noun pattern. from arabic it spread to the
peoples under muslim rule, including turkish and from there to
serbian
>
> Yes, I know; it is a wide spread opinion. Nevertheless, there is a
> Sanskrit word kara (royal revenue , toll , tax , tribute) and this
> word is recorded in Mahâbhârata; so it is hardly possible that it was
Yusuf B Gursey
: On May 4, 3:14?am, Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> On May 4, 8:17?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote:> In sci.lang Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in <1a00695b-636d-446d-ba41-b7bccf7f4...@o27g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>:
:> > : Turkish word hara??????, during the Ottoman Empire, meant ?"tax paid by
:> > : non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( ???????? ?kharaj tax, a
:> > : tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ??????????? shar??t?? (king) and
:>
:> > Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll
:> > look up some other sources to get a more definite answer.
: acc. to Enc. of Islam II "Kharadj" arabic xara:j comes from greek (via
: syriac) khore:gia . in arabic it was attached to the native root <xrj>
I would appreciate it if someone gave the meaning of the greek word.
: and put into a native noun pattern. from arabic it spread to the
: peoples under muslim rule, including turkish and from there to
: serbian
in original arabic usage xara:j meant "land tax" but in later usages it
was occasionally for taxes in general.
:>
:> Yes, I know; it is a wide spread opinion. Nevertheless, there is a
:> Sanskrit word kara (royal revenue , toll , tax , tribute) and this
:> word is recorded in Mah?bh?rata; so it is hardly possible that it was
fr...@bluemail.ch
Panu Petteri Höglund phoglund alias craoibhin66
alias he himself as his own good friend and pupil
Sean Connor soconn1 alias he himself as his own
brother in arms and stalking aide John Hobart Kyle
alias he himself as his own feminist foe and e-mail
call bird Annina Kartinen alias a Romanian professor
claiming to have discovered the origin of language
goes on with his killrating campain. Having attended
three universities to no avail he is desperately trying
to gain influence by multiplying himself and speaking
and acting as a mob of his own.
Yusuf B Gursey
the meaning "racketeering, extortion" is a later coined meaning.
: :>
: :> DV
Yusuf B Gursey
: In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote in <gtqo0a$5la$1...@pcls4.std.com>:
: : In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote in <cf6b55a3-9832-43ec...@x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>:
: : : On May 4, 3:14?am, Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
: : :> On May 4, 8:17?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote:> In sci.lang Du?an Vukoti? <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in <1a00695b-636d-446d-ba41-b7bccf7f4...@o27g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>:
: : :> > : Turkish word hara??????, during the Ottoman Empire, meant ?"tax paid by
: : :> > : non-Moslems". The same word exist in Persian ( ???????? ?kharaj tax, a
: : :> > : tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ??????????? shar??t?? (king) and
: : :>
: : :> > Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll
: : :> > look up some other sources to get a more definite answer.
: : : acc. to Enc. of Islam II "Kharadj" arabic xara:j comes from greek (via
: : : syriac) khore:gia . in arabic it was attached to the native root <xrj>
: : I would appreciate it if someone gave the meaning of the greek word.
apparently khore:gia in classical greek meantthe office of the khorgos who
payed for the expenses of the choruses of the theater,which was
particularly costly. later the word meant the expenses of something. the
word is apparently related to xoros "dance".
: : : and put into a native noun pattern. from arabic it spread to the
Dušan Vukotić
> In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote in <gtt6df$dm...@pcls6.std.com>:
> : In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote in <gtqo0a$5l...@pcls4.std.com>:
Gr. χορηγός (chorus-leader; one who pays the costs) is related to
χορός (dance, chorus, choir) and its meaning is similar to κορυφαι̂ος
(Serb, krugovođa, kolovođa; Eng. ringleader). All these words are
derived from the noun circle (Gr. κίρκος/κρίκος; Serb. krug, Ger.
Ring; OE hring).
DV