Re: A Hidden Secret
Dušan Vukotić
Is there any relation between the English word "secret" and Serbo-
Slavic verb "sakriti" (hide; Russian скры/ва/ть; Czech skrýt)?
Slavic 'sakriti' is related to the other Slavic words as
'skrenuti' (deviate) and 'strana' (side); hence Serbian
'stranac' (stranger; Russ. странный strange);
Is it the reason why Latin 'secretus' (set apart; from "secerno") is
phonetically very close to the Serbian werb "skrenuti,
skrenuo" (deviate, avert)?
And all this wouldn't have been "strange" (all the above words belong
to the IE vocabulary), if the Slavic word "sakriti" hadn't been a sa-
prefixed word.
Any idea?
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:045a69ce-0226-48f2...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>Is there any relation between the English word "secret" and Serbo-
>Slavic verb "sakriti" (hide; Russian скры/ва/ть; Czech skrýt)?
You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching
unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem) devised within
the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek
origin which are several times older.
"sakriti", "skrýt", "zaskrýti" are all constructed as compound of
prefix(behind/down)+stem(to shield).
>Slavic 'sakriti' is related to the other Slavic words as
>'skrenuti' (deviate) and 'strana' (side);
poppycock
> and 'strana' (side); hence Serbian
>'stranac' (stranger; Russ. странный strange);
>
>Is it the reason why Latin 'secretus' (set apart; from "secerno") is
>phonetically very close to the Serbian werb "skrenuti,
>skrenuo" (deviate, avert)?
>
> And all this wouldn't have been "strange" (all the above words belong
>to the IE vocabulary), if the Slavic word "sakriti" hadn't been a sa-
>prefixed word.
>
>Any idea?
Closely related to "secretions"?
>DV
Trond Engen
> poppycock
Oh, no! The ghost of the fake Greek,
may-his-name-never-be-whispered-tenderly, has taken Paul!
--
Trond Engen
- Mene tekel ...
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:8uWdneKY-PR...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
[...]
> Trond Engen
> - Mene tekel ...
No, no, no: that's '- Meanie tickle -', as in 'Meanie,
meanie, tickle a parson'!
Brian
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >Is there any relation between the English word "secret" and Serbo-
> >Slavic verb "sakriti" (hide; Russian скры/ва/ть; Czech skrýt)?
>
> You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching
> unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem) devised within
> the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek
> origin which are several times older.
First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were
(as you say) "devised" during the "last millennium"? Does it mean that
Slavs were so much plain spoken (honest) people that they needed no
words to express or descibe "secrets"? What are we going to do with
the Greek word απόκρυφος/apocryphos (Lat. apocryphus) and Serbian
pokrivati (to cover), pokrov (land cover, a screen placed over dead
person or coffin), κρύφιος / κρύπτω (keep secret, cover in the
earth, bury; crypt grave) krivati, skrivati, sa-krivati (keep
secret), Serbian grob (grave, tomb).
I would say, it is impossible to see clear relations between Greek
απόκρυφος and Latin secretus (secerno) without "deploying" the Serbo-
Slavic words sakriti and sakrivati/pokrivati.
> "sakriti", "skrýt", "zaskrýti" are all constructed as compound of
> prefix(behind/down)+stem(to shield).
Of course! I mentioned it in my initial post on this thread (see
above).
> >Slavic 'sakriti' is related to the other Slavic words as
> >'skrenuti' (deviate) and 'strana' (side);
>
> poppycock
Use the logic: whatever is strange to the human mind that must be a
secret. What is etymology of the English word "screen"? Is there any
relation among Latin secerno (set apart), Serb. skrenuti (deviate) and
Eng. screen? Can you not see that this is not a chance resemblance?
Try to relate the other words, Eng. deviate, devide and devoid?; or
Latin divido and deviantem (devius) where the prefix de- is clearly
visible (Slavic od-)? What is the meaning of the Czech word odvádět
(Serbian odvoditi, odvajati lead away, separate)?. Do you see the
clear-cut relation between the Slavic words voda (water) and put
(road, path, way)?
Let us take another example: English short (from OE sceort) has its
counterpart word in German kurz and Serbo-Slavic s-kratiti (from
kratak short; Russ. сокращать; Czech zkrácený shortened; Serbian imp.
skrati! cut short!). As you can see, German form kurz, Swedish kort,
Danish kort are phonetically very close to the Serbian verb kratiti,
krati (shorten), Czech krátce or Russian короткий / korotkiy (short).
We can see that in Slavic the word skratiti is a sa- prefixed kratiti
(shorten). My question is where the initial sound "S" came from in OE
sceort (short)?
> >Any idea?
> Closely related to "secretions"?
Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin
secerno.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Are you thinking about Belshazzar's palace or the "white powder" has
touched you so deeply? :-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:06:56 +0100, Trond Engen
> <news:8uWdneKY-PR...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > Trond Engen
> > - Mene tekel ...
>
> No, no, no: that's '- Meanie tickle -', as in 'Meanie,
> meanie, tickle a parson'!
>
> Brian
Although you are the one of the biggest brains on sci.lan I doubt you
will be able to grasp the relation among words as tackle, tickle,
touch, Serb. taći, taknuti (touch), tension, tug, Serb. otegnuti, is-
tegnuti (extend), teg (weight), tegliti (pull, tow, tug); tank, tin,
thin; Serb. tanko (thin), tanjiti (make thiner);
What about English long and Serbian dužina (length) and količina
(amount, quantity). Are these words derived from the same basis or
not? If yes why yes and how, if not why not?
Brainy, if you dare to start a debate on the above subject/s I am
going to show you what the real science is! :-)
DV
ps
You are allowed to consult any book, paper, published material and
even your Cyba-Cave-List Slavic Slaves if you like...:-)
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>
> > poppycock
>
> Oh, no! The ghost of the fake Greek,
> may-his-name-never-be-whispered-tenderly, has taken Paul!
Aaaah... aaah... aaah... what? :-)
It's a Dutch ghost of pappekak.
Something like a softdunk?
pjk
Paul J Kriha
>On Dec 31, 2:37 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>
>> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >Is there any relation between the English word "secret" and Serbo-
>> >Slavic verb "sakriti" (hide; Russian скры/ва/ть; Czech skrýt)?
>>
>> You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching
>> unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem) devised within
>> the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek
>> origin which are several times older.
>
>First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were
>(as you say) "devised" during the "last millennium"? Does it mean that
>Slavs were so much plain spoken (honest) people that they needed no
>words to express or descibe "secrets"?
There are zillions of different Sl. words for "secrets" and there
always have been.
>What are we going to do with
>the Greek word απόκρυφος/apocryphos (Lat. apocryphus) and Serbian
>pokrivati (to cover), pokrov (land cover, a screen placed over dead
>person or coffin), κρύφιος / κρύπτω (keep secret, cover in the
>earth, bury; crypt grave) krivati, skrivati, sa-krivati (keep
>secret), Serbian grob (grave, tomb).
>
>I would say, it is impossible to see clear relations between Greek
>απόκρυφος and Latin secretus (secerno) without "deploying" the Serbo-
>Slavic words sakriti and sakrivati/pokrivati.
pappekak
>> "sakriti", "skrýt", "zaskrýti" are all constructed as compound of
>> prefix(behind/down)+stem(to shield).
>
>Of course! I mentioned it in my initial post on this thread (see
>above).
>
>> >Slavic 'sakriti' is related to the other Slavic words as
>> >'skrenuti' (deviate) and 'strana' (side);
>>
>> poppycock
>
>Use the logic: whatever is strange to the human mind that must be a
>secret. What is etymology of the English word "screen"? Is there any
>relation among Latin secerno (set apart), Serb. skrenuti (deviate) and
>Eng. screen? Can you not see that this is not a chance resemblance?
>Try to relate the other words, Eng. deviate, devide and devoid?; or
>Latin divido and deviantem (devius) where the prefix de- is clearly
>visible (Slavic od-)?
poppy-poppy-poopy-pap
> What is the meaning of the Czech word odvádět
>(Serbian odvoditi, odvajati lead away, separate)?. Do you see the
>clear-cut relation between the Slavic words voda (water) and put
>(road, path, way)?
Jeezwayne.
"odvádět" = "od-" (from/away) + "ved(U)-" ("vád-" continuous form
of higly productive stem 'to lead') + "-t(i)" (infinitive marker)
The meaning is clearly "to lead away", absolutely nothing to
do with water.
>Let us take another example: English short (from OE sceort) has its
>counterpart word in German kurz and Serbo-Slavic s-kratiti (from
>kratak short; Russ. сокращать; Czech zkrácený shortened; Serbian imp.
>skrati! cut short!). As you can see, German form kurz, Swedish kort,
>Danish kort are phonetically very close to the Serbian verb kratiti,
>krati (shorten), Czech krátce or Russian короткий / korotkiy (short).
>We can see that in Slavic the word skratiti is a sa- prefixed kratiti
>(shorten). My question is where the initial sound "S" came from in OE
>sceort (short)?
There is quite a big difference between prefixes "s-" and "z-".
AFAIK, their OSlavic predecesors had separate meaning with
different etymologies. In the conteporary West Slavic they
are still separate with totally different meanings. The voicing
and devoicing (which may vary in different dialects of Czech)
sometimes heavily modifies their pronunciations, one may
_sound_ like the other, but they are always written down
to correctly represent their respective meanings.
AFAICT, more recently they got mixed up to various degrees
in the East and South Slavic languages. Your failure to
distinguish between them demonstrates effects of that.
"s-" indicates swiping movement off the top of something, or
gathering movement together.
E.g. "smetl" he swiped off, "sebral" he collected, "sec^etl" he added up.
"z-" indicates change of status (no movement implied),
E.g. "zrudl" he became red, "zmlkl" he became quiet
"zkra'tit" to shorten
>> >Any idea?
>
>> Closely related to "secretions"?
>
>Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin
>secerno.
No, English "secretion" is from Med. Latin "se-cre-tio-"
while English "secern" is from Latin "se-cernere" (to separate).
So, "secretion" was not derived directly from L. "se-cernere".
pjk
>DV
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Trond Engen" <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in messagenews:8uWdneKY-PR...@telenor.com...
> > Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>
> > > poppycock
>
> > Oh, no! The ghost of the fake Greek,
> > may-his-name-never-be-whispered-tenderly, has taken Paul!
>
> Aaaah... aaah... aaah... what? :-)
>
> It's a Dutch ghost of pappekak.
> Something like a softdunk?
> pjk
>
>
>
> > Trond Engen
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are a big papak Kriha! .-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> >First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were
If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
history of the language development.
DV
All the same Kriha. Czech z-rudnout (turn red) or Serbian za-rudeti
are the za- prefixed (from the verb rudeti; Czeh rudost redness). The
same happened to the word zkrátit (shorten; Serbin skratiti), Czech
krátkost (shortness).
I asked you, are the Germanic and Slavic words for "shortness" related
or not? If they are related (and obviously they are) how do you
explain that Slavic "short" is a prefixed word?
> >> >Any idea?
>
> >> Closely related to "secretions"?
>
> >Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin
> >secerno.
>
> No, English "secretion" is from Med. Latin "se-cre-tio-"
> while English "secern" is from Latin "se-cernere" (to separate).
>
> So, "secretion" was not derived directly from L. "se-cernere".
Books are made for reading, did you not know it?
DV
lora...@cs.com
wrote:
> On Dec 31, 2:37 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> > You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching
> > unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem) devised within
> > the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek
> > origin which are several times older.
>
> First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were
> (as you say) "devised" during the "last millennium"? Does it mean that
> Slavs were so much plain spoken (honest) people that they needed no
> words to express or descibe "secrets"? What are we going to do with
> the Greek word απόκρυφος/apocryphos (Lat. apocryphus) and Serbian
> pokrivati (to cover), pokrov (land cover, a screen placed over dead
> person or coffin), κρύφιος / κρύπτω (keep secret, cover in the
> earth, bury; crypt grave) krivati, skrivati, sa-krivati (keep
> secret), Serbian grob (grave, tomb).
You just proved Kriha correct again!
(Forget about books... you need to consider serial thought first)
'Pokrivati', and 'pokrov' do not equate to κρύφιος / κρύπτω .
'Sa-krivati' is also a compound formed with a prefix.
lora...@cs.com
> If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
> are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
> history of the language development.
>
> DV
Your inability to identify roots constantly undermines your efforts.
'Voda' (water) has nothing to do with " vodja (leader)" or "vladar
(ruler)".
The more original Baltic forms are: 'vadis' (leader) and
'valdis' (ruler).
(imo 'vadis' cf. 'Woden' and 'Odin')
The shifted 'L' in 'vladar' indicates a later secondary development.
And the more original Baltic form of 'voda' is 'udens'.. different
root entirely.
Trond Engen
> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message news:8uWdneKY-PR...@telenor.com...
>
>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>>
>>> poppycock
>>
>> Oh, no! The ghost of the fake Greek,
>> may-his-name-never-be-whispered-tenderly, has taken Paul!
>
> Aaaah... aaah... aaah... what? :-)
>
> It's a Dutch ghost of pappekak.
> Something like a softdunk?
It's also the favourite expression of our agamnemonic acquaintance.
Thank heavens you're safe and sound.
--
Trond Engen
- ghostwriter
Dušan Vukotić
> On Dec 31 2007, 12:56 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 31, 2:37 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> > > You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching
> > > unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem) devised within
> > > the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek
> > > origin which are several times older.
>
> > First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were
> > (as you say) "devised" during the "last millennium"? Does it mean that
> > Slavs were so much plain spoken (honest) people that they needed no
> > words to express or descibe "secrets"? What are we going to do with
> > the Greek word απόκρυφος/apocryphos (Lat. apocryphus) and Serbian
> > pokrivati (to cover), pokrov (land cover, a screen placed over dead
> > person or coffin), κρύφιος / κρύπτω (keep secret, cover in the
> > earth, bury; crypt grave) krivati, skrivati, sa-krivati (keep
> > secret), Serbian grob (grave, tomb).
>
> You just proved Kriha correct again!
Would you mind telling me how I did it?
> (Forget about books... you need to consider serial thought first)
You mean the books written by serial killers?
> 'Pokrivati', and 'pokrov' do not equate to κρύφιος / κρύπτω .
Why not?
> 'Sa-krivati' is also a compound formed with a prefix.
Greek apocryphos is also a prefixed word ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> Your inability to identify roots constantly undermines your efforts.
> 'Voda' (water) has nothing to do with " vodja (leader)" or "vladar
> (ruler)".
Serbo-Slavic verbs voditi (lead, steer), navoditi (navigate; cf.
Serbian na-vodjenje from na-vo-genje means "navigation") are the words
clearly related to water (Slavic voda); originally Serb. navođenje and
Latin navigatio were derived from the Bel-Gon basis.
> The more original Baltic forms are: 'vadis' (leader) and
> 'valdis' (ruler).
Maybe God himself created Baltic as a "capo di tutti capi" of all
languages.
> (imo 'vadis' cf. 'Woden' and 'Odin')
>
> The shifted 'L' in 'vladar' indicates a later secondary development.
Just the opposite! Vladati (reign) is older that voditi (lead); Serbo-
Slavic vlaga (wetness) comes before voda (water)
> And the more original Baltic form of 'voda' is 'udens'.. different
> root entirely.
I am not shure what happened here but suppose that 'uden' is the same
word as Slavic 'voden' (watery) where sound "u" replaced the sound
"v"; the similar is in Latin: unda (water) but there is also vadum -i
(shoal, water)
DV
Paul J Kriha
[...] some pappekaks removed
>> > What is the meaning of the Czech word odvádět
>> >(Serbian odvoditi, odvajati lead away, separate)?. Do you see the
>> >clear-cut relation between the Slavic words voda (water) and put
>> >(road, path, way)?
>>
>> Jeezwayne.
>>
>> "odvádět" = "od-" (from/away) + "ved(U)-" ("vád-" continuous form
>> of higly productive stem 'to lead') + "-t(i)" (infinitive marker)
>>
>> The meaning is clearly "to lead away", absolutely nothing to
>> do with water.
>
>If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
>are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
>history of the language development.
I didn't know that any two of these three Slavic words for
water, leader, and ruler were related. I didn't know it last
time it was discussed here, or several times before then.
Obviously, I know nothing about the history of the language
development according to Dusan. And I stubbornly refuse
to learn.
By Jove, are you so SHORTsighted?
The Slavic for adj. "short" is "krátký" (or similar cognate in
different Sl. languages). The verb "to shorten" is "krátit"
(or something like that in various Sl. languages).
Where is your prefix, dingbat?
The aspect of the Czech "zkrátit" (Serb. skratiti) is a single action.
The aspect of the original stem verb "krátit" is of a continuous action.
The form of the third Czech aspect, repeated single action,
would be "zkracovat".
As I said before, the prefix "z-" implies a sudden change of status.
Sl. languages have a largish family of various prefixes one can use.
(Prefixes like u- s- z-, etc., etc.)
The prefixes and multiple prefixes serve as aspect modifiers
and/or meaning modifiers. There is nothing special about
the s- prefix. It's time for you to get out of that s- grove and
get obsessed with another prefix.
Why don't you pick on k- next?
There are tonnes of Greek k- words. :-)
>> >> >Any idea?
>>
>> >> Closely related to "secretions"?
>>
>> >Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin
>> >secerno.
>>
>> No, English "secretion" is from Med. Latin "se-cre-tio-"
>> while English "secern" is from Latin "se-cernere" (to separate).
>>
>> So, "secretion" was not derived directly from L. "se-cernere".
>
>Books are made for reading, did you not know it?
Nah, don't you know I use them for decoration and thermal insulation
against the southern walls of my house?
pjk
>DV
lora...@cs.com
> On Jan 2, 10:03 am, lorad...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > Your inability to identify roots constantly undermines your efforts.
> > 'Voda' (water) has nothing to do with "vodja (leader)" or "vladar
> > (ruler)".
>
> Serbo-Slavic verbs voditi (lead, steer), navoditi (navigate; cf.
> Serbian na-vodjenje from na-vo-genje means "navigation") are the words
> Latin navigatio were derived from the Bel-Gon basis.
No. Once again your are repeating the same innacuracy. The root of
'vodit' is not the same root of 'voda' - even though orthographic
modifications in Slavic have caused identical current day spelling.
These are the more original forms and Slavic derivatives:
'vadis' - 'vodja' leader
'valdis' - 'vladar' ruler
but...
'udens' - 'voda' water
Three different roots.
> > The more original Baltic forms are: 'vadis' (leader) and
> > 'valdis' (ruler).
>
> Maybe God himself created Baltic as a "capo di tutti capi" of all
> languages.
Perhaps. But more certainly the general view that Baltic preserves
more archaisms and is more conservative than Slavic does, lends
credence to that view.
> > (imo 'vadis' cf. 'Woden' and 'Odin')
>
> > The shifted 'L' in 'vladar' indicates a later secondary development.
>
> Just the opposite! Vladati (reign) is older that voditi (lead); Serbo-
> Slavic vlaga (wetness) comes before voda (water)
I see... So you believe that wetness indicates primeval leadership?
What about those wet behind the ears?
> > And the more original Baltic form of 'voda' is 'udens'.. different
> > root entirely.
>
> I am not shure what happened here but suppose that 'uden' is the same
> word as Slavic 'voden' (watery) where sound "u" replaced the sound
> "v"; the similar is in Latin: unda (water) but there is also vadum -i
> (shoal, water)
Again.. 'udens' is cognate with 'voda'.. yes.
But 'udens' is not a cf. of 'vodit' or 'vladar'
PS: I mentioned my opinion of Baltic 'vadis' (leader) as a probable
source of 'Woden' or 'Odin'.
More appropriate would be Baltic Latv. 'vadon|s' (leader) ('s' just
indicates nom. sing.)
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
>
> >If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
> >are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
> >history of the language development.
>
> I didn't know that any two of these three Slavic words for
> water, leader, and ruler were related. I didn't know it last
> time it was discussed here, or several times before then.
> Obviously, I know nothing about the history of the language
> development according to Dusan. And I stubbornly refuse
> to learn
> >> >Let us take another example: English short (from OE sceort) has its
The same as with the Serbian verbs graditi (build, create) and sa-
graditi.
SA-GRADITI is a single action
GRADITI is continues action
SA-GRAĐIVATI (IZ-GRAĐIVATI) repated action
That's OK but I asked you about relatedness between Slavic "skratiti"
and Germanic "short"!
You are avoiding to answer my question directly. I know you are
terrible confused: you would rather say that these two words are
unrelated, but you cannot do it. Simply, books are saying
differently. ;-)
Once again, how do you explain that a prefixed Slavic word (skratiti,
skrati) is the cognate of the English "short"?
DV
> Sl. languages have a largish family of various prefixes one can use.
> (Prefixes like u- s- z-, etc., etc.)
> The prefixes and multiple prefixes serve as aspect modifiers
> and/or meaning modifiers. There is nothing special about
> the s- prefix. It's time for you to get out of that s- grove and
> get obsessed with another prefix.
> Why don't you pick on k- next?
> There are tonnes of Greek k- words. :-)
>
> >> >> >Any idea?
>
> >> >> Closely related to "secretions"?
>
> >> >Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin
> >> >secerno.
>
> >> No, English "secretion" is from Med. Latin "se-cre-tio-"
> >> while English "secern" is from Latin "se-cernere" (to separate).
>
> >> So, "secretion" was not derived directly from L. "se-cernere".
>
> >Books are made for reading, did you not know it?
>
> Nah, don't you know I use them for decoration and thermal insulation
> against the southern walls of my house?
>
> pjk
>
>
>
> >DV- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Dušan Vukotić
> On Jan 2, 1:58 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 10:03 am, lorad...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > > Your inability to identify roots constantly undermines your efforts.
> > > 'Voda' (water) has nothing to do with "vodja (leader)" or "vladar
> > > (ruler)".
>
> > Serbo-Slavic verbs voditi (lead, steer), navoditi (navigate; cf.
> > Serbian na-vodjenje from na-vo-genje means "navigation") are the words
> > clearly related to water (Slavic voda); originally Serb. navoðenje and
> > Latin navigatio were derived from the Bel-Gon basis.
>
> No. Once again your are repeating the same innacuracy. The root of
> 'vodit' is not the same root of 'voda' - even though orthographic
> modifications in Slavic have caused identical current day spelling.
I am tired of your emphatic NO which you repeat constantly without the
offering of any counter-explanation. Tell me why your answer is NO?
What are the "roots" you are talking about? What Slavic orthographic
changes are you reffering too? Can you coroborate any of your above
statements? The facts, please!
> These are the more original forms and Slavic derivatives:
> 'vadis' - 'vodja' leader
> 'valdis' - 'vladar' ruler
Why? Just because you say so?
> but...
> 'udens' - 'voda' water
>
> Three different roots.
What "roots"? Why wouldn't you write your "roots" down and made your
divine "argimentation" visible to anyone?
> > > The more original Baltic forms are: 'vadis' (leader) and
> > > 'valdis' (ruler).
>
> > Maybe God himself created Baltic as a "capo di tutti capi" of all
> > languages.
>
> Perhaps. But more certainly the general view that Baltic preserves
> more archaisms and is more conservative than Slavic does, lends
> credence to that view.
How do you measure the "conservativism" of languages? Would you be
able to present a single example of your Baltic "archaisms"?
> > > (imo 'vadis' cf. 'Woden' and 'Odin')
>
> > > The shifted 'L' in 'vladar' indicates a later secondary development.
>
> > Just the opposite! Vladati (reign) is older that voditi (lead); Serbo-
> > Slavic vlaga (wetness) comes before voda (water)
>
> I see... So you believe that wetness indicates primeval leadership?
> What about those wet behind the ears?
Simply, the words vlaga (wetness) and voda (water) were both born from
the same primeval Bel-Gon matrix. Compare Italian bagnare (to water)
and localitŕ balneare (spa), Serbian banja (spa), kupanje, banjanje
(swim), Spanish bańar (swim), balneario (spa); Italian bagnato (wet);
Latin uvidus -a (wet, moist). All these words are the Bel-Gon
derivatives.
Even naive but averagely intelligent people would understand such
phonetic changes without much difficulties.
DV
> > > And the more original Baltic form of 'voda' is 'udens'.. different
> > > root entirely.
What root? Unknown one?
> > I am not shure what happened here but suppose that 'uden' is the same
> > word as Slavic 'voden' (watery) where sound "u" replaced the sound
> > "v"; the similar is in Latin: unda (water) but there is also vadum -i
> > (shoal, water)
>
> Again.. 'udens' is cognate with 'voda'.. yes.
> But 'udens' is not a cf. of 'vodit' or 'vladar'
Any kindergarten child could say it. What evidences you have to
substantiate your above assertion?
> PS: I mentioned my opinion of Baltic 'vadis' (leader) as a probable
> source of 'Woden' or 'Odin'.
> More appropriate would be Baltic Latv. 'vadon|s' (leader) ('s' just
> indicates nom. sing.)
What is appropriate or not appropriate is one thing and quite the
other thing is the truth that must be proven beyond any doubt.
DV
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>Düsenjäger wrote to Paul:
>If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
>are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
>history of the language development.
Hi Dusan,
I came across something that might be of interest to you:
From: Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Rudolf Simek;
ISBN 0859915131...
there are entries for:
Vatviae. Matron name. Twelve inscriptions have been found to date
recording the name Vatviae. Three of the inscriptions come from
Rödingen (Kreis Jülich) and five from Morken-Harff (Kreis Bergheim,
Germany). Half of the inscriptions give the dative Vatviabus, and the
others Vatvims, which confirms the Germanic character of the name.
The most frequent interpretation relates the Vatviae etymologically
to a Germanic word base meaning 'water', but the exact application of
this is disputed. More original, but not more likely, is the
connexion of the Vatviae with Latin vates 'seer'.
Veteranehae. Matron name. A number of inscriptions on votive stones
from Embken and Wollersheim (Kreis Düren, Germany) are dedicated to
the 'matronibus Veteranehis'. In addition to this there are two
monuments with the name variant Veterahenae and three with
Vataranehae from the same area, so that a cult centre in Embken may
be postulated; four of the inscriptions with the Veteranehae come
from donors from the same family. Another newly found inscription, of
which only Veter . . . is extant is not found in the same area of the
other stones (Rommerskirchen, Kreis Neuß), but it was used as a
building stone and could therefore also come from Embken originally.
The link of the name with veteranus 'veteran' is unlikely.
Gutenbrunner suggested the form Vataranehae was the correct one and
related the name etyrmologically to Germanic *watar- 'water' as
numerous matron names are derived from river names. The great
frequency of the form on Veter-, however, makes this interpretation
somewhat improbable, and a derivation from the name of a camp Castra
Vetera is to be preferred.
Take care,
Heidi
Dušan Vukotić
My dear Empress von Gnaben/Heaven-Stein! Oh, you goddess of beauty and
wisdom!
Welcome back, we haven't heard from you for ages.
Let me start from the second name - Veteranehae. First, Gutenbrunner
is right when he claimed that this name must be somehow related to
Germanic "water". Second, hypothetically is quite possible that
Veteranehae is related to veteranus as well as it is possible that
veteranus is related to water. Following the same logic I used in my
former message when I was talking about the Slavic words
"voda" (water) and vođa (leader) I could say that Germanic *watar
(water) is related to Germanic *fader (father). In Greek water is ύδωρ
(hydor; also hygros) and leader is ηγήτηρ (hegeter). In this case, it
could be supposed that Greek 'ydor (water) originally sounded as
'wydor' (cf. English otter, Greek hydra, Slavic vidra; all seem to be
derived from "water"). Another Greek word can throw more light upon
this problem. It is the word ποτίζω (potizo water), equal to Serbian
vodica (small water) or the verb poticati/poteći (to flow, running as
water).
Taking all the above facts in a serious consideration, we could
conclude that Germanic *fader is just a synonym for the leader (Germ.
water => father; Slav. voda => vođa). We could corroborate the above
etymology with the Upper Sorbian words wótc, wóćec (father), which
are phonetically almost the same as Serbian vožd (leader; vođa; cf.
Russ. вотчина/votčina patrimony). It means that Slavic word otac
(father) also had its primary meaning of "leader", just in the same
way as it happened to the Germanic *fader. Now we can also understand
why we have the name "apa" (papa, babo) or hypocorism "ata" (tata;
from voditi /lead/) with the meaning "father".
What we yet left unexplained is the Latin word veteranus (old). We all
know that in old times the tribal leader was always the oldest member
of the family. It means that "father" of those tribal-ages was at the
same time the leader of the tribe and the father to all the members of
the clan. Even today, when we observe the religious life and
tradition, we will recognize the tribal conscience and system of
organization among our religious LEADERS who are still bearing the
"titles" of FATER, PATER, PADRE, V-OTAC, and POPE.
Your humble Servian servant :-)
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić
> >news:b3691f78-d45d-47aa...@75g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> >Düsenjäger wrote to Paul:
Perfect! Thank you Heidi!
Düsenjäger, just what I am!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
All the best to you and your family!
Dušan
Dušan Vukotić
> >news:b3691f78-d45d-47aa...@75g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> >Düsenjäger wrote to Paul:
> >If you do not know that Slavic words vodja (leader) and vladar (ruler)
> >are related to voda, water and leader then you know nothing about the
> >history of the language development.
>
> Hi Dusan,
>
> I came across something that might be of interest to you:
>
> From: Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Rudolf Simek;
> ISBN 0859915131...
>
> there are entries for:
>
> Vatviae. Matron name. Twelve inscriptions have been found to date
> recording the name Vatviae. Three of the inscriptions come from
> Rödingen (Kreis Jülich) and five from Morken-Harff (Kreis Bergheim,
> Germany). Half of the inscriptions give the dative Vatviabus, and the
> others Vatvims, which confirms the Germanic character of the name.
> The most frequent interpretation relates the Vatviae etymologically
> to a Germanic word base meaning 'water', but the exact application of
> this is disputed. More original, but not more likely, is the
> connexion of the Vatviae with Latin vates 'seer'.
I think Vatviae is equal to the modern German word Witwe (widow). In
Slavic widow is udova (Serb. udovica) and it is related to the Serbo-
Slavic verbs odvoditi or odvojiti (take away, separate); i.e. it is a
cognate of English devoid or Latin divido -videre (separate). It will
become clearer if we say that Slavic name for maiden is "devojka"; cf.
Serbian devica (virgin). It means devojka (Russ. девушка; Czech děvče,
dívka) is a girl ready for marriage, the girl that is ready to be
taken out or separated (odvojiti) from her parental home. Slavic udova
and German Witwe represent woman who is ready to be re-married or
married again (she is a maiden or devojka /girl/ again!).
Of course, in this case the word widow is indirectly related to water
(Slavic odvoditi, odvojiti, devojka; from voda water); also Latin
vadum -i (water); de + vadi.
Finally, if the married woman is willing to be young again (maiden)
she must pray FATHER for her husbands death! What an amazing elixir of
youth!
DV
Heidi Graw
>On Jan 3, 4:19 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>My dear Empress von Gnaben/Heaven-Stein! Oh, you goddess of beauty and
>wisdom!
>Welcome back, we haven't heard from you for ages.
Hello, Your Right Honorable Excellency!
Thank you for the grand reception, although I have never been
far away. I've just been extremely busy and could only pop in
now and again to see how things are going in this happy
little newsgroup. ;-)
I have only just recently stumbled across the "Dictionary
of Northern Mythology" by Rudolf Simek;
ISBN 0859915131...
It looks like a worthwhile book to get ahold of. I had
no idea just how many venerable matrons existed
in pre-Christian times. I must learn more about them.
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
On Jan 3, 4:19 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
> >"Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:b3691f78-d45d-47aa...@75g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
> >Düsenjäger wrote to Paul:
>Dusan wrote:
>Perfect! Thank you Heidi!
>Düsenjäger, just what I am!
Yes, I thought you would like it.
I already mentioned to you how
your name reminds me of "Düsen,"
and considering how you keep chasing
around fellow sci.lang members and pressing
on them to examine your ideas...well...
"Düsen"- hunter...jäger, came to mind.
>His Excellency wrote:
>Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
>All the best to you and your family!
Thank you, Dusan.
Do you celebrate the "Crissmess" in the
Orthodox manner?
I found something cute about Serbian
Crissmess customs: Holding up family
members for ransom! LOL... I love it...
http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/library/religious/Lord_Teach_Us_To_Pray/Christmas.html
It's so true, though, isn't it? I know my
kids hold me up for ransom so they can
get what they want for gifts! Hmmmm...
Btw, Dusan, I've decided to use the word
"Crissmess" instead of Christmas. The
reason for that is that Christians are at
such odds about these winter festivals
that it has turned into nothing but
a criss-crossing mess.
Here in Canada and the US, all sorts
of Christian fundies whine about the
lack of religious observance. They
demand, "Put Christ back into
Christmas."
Of course, to that I reply, "There's no
Christ in Fröhliche Weihnachten!" ;-)
Happy Holy Nights, Dusan. May
you and your family enjoy the very
best in the New Year!
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>On Jan 3, 4:19 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>>Heidi wrote:
>> Hi Dusan,
>>
>> I came across something that might be of interest to you:
>>
>> From: Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Rudolf Simek;
>> ISBN 0859915131...
>>
>> there are entries for:
>>
>> Vatviae. Matron name. Twelve inscriptions have been found to date
>> recording the name Vatviae. Three of the inscriptions come from
>> Rödingen (Kreis Jülich) and five from Morken-Harff (Kreis Bergheim,
>> Germany). Half of the inscriptions give the dative Vatviabus, and the
>> others Vatvims, which confirms the Germanic character of the name.
>> The most frequent interpretation relates the Vatviae etymologically
>> to a Germanic word base meaning 'water', but the exact application of
>> this is disputed. More original, but not more likely, is the
>> connexion of the Vatviae with Latin vates 'seer'.
>Dusan wrote:
>I think Vatviae is equal to the modern German word Witwe (widow). In
>Slavic widow is udova (Serb. udovica) and it is related to the Serbo-
>Slavic verbs odvoditi or odvojiti (take away, separate); i.e. it is a
>cognate of English devoid or Latin divido -videre (separate). It will
>become clearer if we say that Slavic name for maiden is "devojka"; cf.
>Serbian devica (virgin). It means devojka (Russ. девушка; Czech děvče,
>dívka) is a girl ready for marriage, the girl that is ready to be
>taken out or separated (odvojiti) from her parental home. Slavic udova
>and German Witwe represent woman who is ready to be re-married or
>married again (she is a maiden or devojka /girl/ again!).
>Of course, in this case the word widow is indirectly related to water
>(Slavic odvoditi, odvojiti, devojka; from voda water); also Latin
>vadum -i (water); de + vadi.
>Finally, if the married woman is willing to be young again (maiden)
>she must pray FATHER for her husbands death! What an amazing elixir of
>youth!
<chuckle> There must be some truth to that. It appears even in
ancient times, they knew about "merry widows." ;-)
I've actually witnessed widows regaining more of their
youthful vitality once their husbands have died. Does that
mean if I want to get rid of a wrinkle, I should just lose the
hubby? LOL... ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Dušan Vukotić
> >"Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:2b8bc88b-c794-4610...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Jan 3, 4:19 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > >news:b3691f78-d45d-47aa...@75g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> > (snip)
> >>Heidi had written:
> > >Düsenjäger wrote to Paul:
> >Dusan wrote:
> >Perfect! Thank you Heidi!
> >Düsenjäger, just what I am!
>
> Yes, I thought you would like it.
>
> I already mentioned to you how
> your name reminds me of "Düsen,"
> and considering how you keep chasing
> around fellow sci.lang members and pressing
> on them to examine your ideas...well...
> "Düsen"- hunter...jäger, came to mind.
>
> >His Excellency wrote:
> >Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
> >All the best to you and your family!
>
> Thank you, Dusan.
> Do you celebrate the "Crissmess" in the
> Orthodox manner?
>
> I found something cute about Serbian
> Crissmess customs: Holding up family
> members for ransom! LOL... I love it...
>
>
> It's so true, though, isn't it? I know my
> kids hold me up for ransom so they can
> get what they want for gifts! Hmmmm...
>
> Btw, Dusan, I've decided to use the word
> "Crissmess" instead of Christmas. The
> reason for that is that Christians are at
> such odds about these winter festivals
> that it has turned into nothing but
> a criss-crossing mess.
>
> Here in Canada and the US, all sorts
> of Christian fundies whine about the
> lack of religious observance. They
> demand, "Put Christ back into
> Christmas."
>
> Of course, to that I reply, "There's no
> Christ in Fröhliche Weihnachten!" ;-)
>
> Happy Holy Nights, Dusan. May
> you and your family enjoy the very
> best in the New Year!
>
> Take care,
> Heidi
Christianity (as well as other modern religions) is nothing else but a
blood-freezing cry of a primitive hunting-pack-society. In addition,
our basic worshiping rituals are the worships of death. We are talking
about resurrection, at the same time, we are eating our God, and we
are drinking his blood.
Christmas (or your nicely "christened" Crissmess) is a big opportunity
for profit and it bears no risk of loss. :-)
Our heathen ancestors celebrated the life, the sun, the new birth,
rivers, trees and flowers and holy fires (springs of eternal love);
they worshiped wolfs, eagles, bulls.... Most of the Serbian
"Christian" customs are in fact the pagan rites, which have survived
through many centuries after the Serbs have been baptized.
Dušan
Paul J Kriha
[...]
>> The Slavic for adj. "short" is "krátký" (or similar cognate in
>> different Sl. languages). The verb "to shorten" is "krátit"
>> (or something like that in various Sl. languages).
>> Where is your prefix, dingbat?
>
>> The aspect of the Czech "zkrátit" (Serb. skratiti) is a single action.
>> The aspect of the original stem verb "krátit" is of a continuous action.
>> The form of the third Czech aspect, repeated single action,
>> would be "zkracovat".
>> As I said before, the prefix "z-" implies a sudden change of status.
>
>The same as with the Serbian verbs graditi (build, create) and sa-
>graditi.
>SA-GRADITI is a single action
>GRADITI is continues action
>SA-GRAĐIVATI (IZ-GRAĐIVATI) repated action
>
>That's OK but I asked you about relatedness between Slavic "skratiti"
>and Germanic "short"!
>
>You are avoiding to answer my question directly. I know you are
>terrible confused: you would rather say that these two words are
>unrelated, but you cannot do it. Simply, books are saying
>differently. ;-)
>
>Once again, how do you explain that a prefixed Slavic word (skratiti,
>skrati) is the cognate of the English "short"?
What is there to explain? There is nothing to explain.
If a word-stem happens to be a cognate of a word in another
language, then ALL it's prefixed, suffixed, declined, tensed
and whatever forms are ALSO cognates of the same word.
Once again, you do insist on asking extremely silly questions.
If (and I say, IF) "krat-" is a cognate of "short" then "ukra'tit",
"zkra'tit", "zkra'cet", "ukracovat", "kratinky'", "krat'ouc^ky",
"zkra'ceny'", "zkratka", "zkra'tka", "zkratkou", "kra'tka'", "kra'tky'",
"kra'tit", "kra'ceny'", "krats^i'", "nejkrats^i'", "zkratovy'", "zkratovac^",
"zkratovna", "zkratovy'", "zkratove^js^i'", "nejzkratove^js^i'", and
so on, and so on, are all equally cognates of the same word.
Obviously, the prefix "s-" (or "z-") itself is not a cognate of
anything in "short", certainly not of the "s" or "sh".
pjk
>DV
Dušan Vukotić
> >"Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Of course! It was not the Lana Turner's invention.
> I've actually witnessed widows regaining more of their
> youthful vitality once their husbands have died. Does that
> mean if I want to get rid of a wrinkle, I should just lose the
> hubby? LOL... ;-)
May be I am wrong but I think there is no woman in the world that has
not been imagining her husband’s lifeless body being laid on a
catafalque. Being a "sorrowfully merry" widow must be an exiting
"idea" for any woman. Look at the faces of widows during the funeral
procession - I bet they have never been (and they will never be)
handsomer (more attractive) in their whole life, than in those moments
of the deepest and sweetest "spiritual" suffering. :-)
Regards,
Dušan
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
It seems you are unable to understand my question. Let us say that a
supposed 'korot-' (Russ. короткий, Lat. curtus) is a common basis for
both Germanic and Slavic short. Slavic skratiti is a sa- prefixed word
(sa + korot). Could we say, what is the meaning of the Germanic s- (OE
s-ceort)?
There are many similar examples. Some of them are very complicated;
English sip and Serbian sipati (infuse, rain, pour), Greek σιγοπίνω
(sip). Is the word sip related to slurp and how? According to the
similar meaning they have, they are. By using the HSF it is possible
to reconstruct the initial form of these words (surpeln; from the Xur-
Bel-Gon). In addition, by applying my HSF principles it becomes clear
that Latin sorbeo is a cognate of slurp and sip and other IE words
with the same semantic values. I can demonstrate in any of the IE
languages how effective my Human Speech Formula is. Even in a compiled
IE tongues as Albanian! What's the history of the Albanian words gjerp
and gjarpër (slurp and snake/serpent)? Ask Abdullah or his mentors G.
Starostin, A. Lubotsky, Cybalist-Cave-members and the only possible
answer you could had "pulled out" of them would have been "maybe it
is...". ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> >My dear Empress von Gnaben/Heaven-Stein! Oh, you goddess of beauty and
> >wisdom!
> >Welcome back, we haven't heard from you for ages.
>
> Hello, Your Right Honorable Excellency!
>
> Thank you for the grand reception, although I have never been
> far away. I've just been extremely busy and could only pop in
> now and again to see how things are going in this happy
> little newsgroup. ;-)
You are the best of the best that has ever happened to this group.
Your appearance here is much more important than anyone can realize
and your Divine/Heathen Brilliance is comparable only to the light of
the rising Sun.
I am sure that all sci.lang members are sharing the same delight -
our Mighty Empress von Gnaben/Heaven-Stein!
> It looks like a worthwhile book to get ahold of. I had
> no idea just how many venerable matrons existed
> in pre-Christian times. I must learn more about them.
There are thousands and thousands of mythological creatures who are
eagerly waiting for a chance to reveal their long kept stories!
All the best
Dušan