Arabic nadzar, Serbian nadzor - false cognates?
Dušan Vukotić
Czech do-zor; Pol. nadzór (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. nâzer (overseer), nazar (sight,
vision);
False cognates? :-)
For Kriha and Brainy: Slavic nadzor is nad- (over-) prefixed word (nad-
zor).
DV
phog...@abo.fi
> Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. над-зор/nad-zor (supervision);
> Czech do-zor; Pol. nadzór (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
> Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. nâzer (overseer), nazar (sight,
> vision);
> False cognates? :-)
Long live free, independent Kosovo! Shefki Kuqi! Perparim Hetemaj!
Yusuf B Gursey
: Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. ??????-??????/nad-zor (supervision);
: Czech do-zor; Pol. nadz??r (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
na*DH*a:ra(t)
: Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. n??zer (overseer), nazar (sight,
Dušan Vukotić
Hog Loony, if you want to talk about your potentially desired lovers
and your weird amorous dreams why don't you go to alt.homosexuality.
This is a language forum.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> : Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. nad-zor (supervision);
> : Czech do-zor; Pol. nadz??r (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
>
> na*DH*a:ra(t)
And what is your point? Do you think of Aramaic NDR (vow; nthar;
nethra, nziru), Arabic nadhara (vow, dedicate, promise), Hebrew nazar
(dedicate, consecrate, separate)?
Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
is very near to "supervise" and those who "supervise" are called
Na(d)zarite; cf. Akkadian nazaru (curse; Tur. nazar "an evil eye";
Arabic nadzar sight, look; Akkadian nassaru, Heb natzar /look, watch,
keep, guard/).
DV
phog...@abo.fi
Look who is talking. You are the one who accuses everyone and his cow-
milking stool for homosexuality.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hog Loony, be reasonable... everyone can see your queerness ("Shefki
Kuqi! Perparim Hetemaj!").
In fact, I have nothing against your orientation whatever it can be...
but I think you should choose a more apropriate forum for such a kind
of "hemorrhage" from the ruptured or unrequited posterior
affectionateness.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
> On Feb 21, 11:20 am, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 9:12 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 21, 1:13 am, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 21, 1:17 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. над-зор/nad-zor (supervision);
> > > > > Czech do-zor; Pol. nadzór (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
> > > > > Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. nâzer (overseer), nazar (sight,
> > > > > vision);
> > > > > False cognates? :-)
>
> > > > Long live free, independent Kosovo! Shefki Kuqi! Perparim Hetemaj!
>
> > > Hog Loony, if you want to talk about your potentially desired lovers
> > > and your weird amorous dreams why don't you go to alt.homosexuality.
>
> > > This is a language forum.
>
> > Look who is talking. You are the one who accuses everyone and his cow-
> > milking stool for homosexuality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hog Loony, be reasonable... everyone can see your queerness ("Shefki
> Kuqi! Perparim Hetemaj!").
So you suggest that only homosexuals are interested in soccer?
phog...@abo.fi
> but I think you should choose a more apropriate forum for such a kind
> of "hemorrhage" from the ruptured or unrequited posterior
> affectionateness.
Oh, now I understand: you are suggesting Kosovo Albanians are gays,
aren't you? Then why are you so afraid of them outbreeding the rest of
Europe? Is that Serbian logic?
Dušan Vukotić
Hog Loony, are you really so stupid?
How many times I have to tell you that this is a language forum?
Are you trying to outplay the Maharaja's mental dullness and a similar
unmitigated effrontery?
DV
Marc
> And what is your point?
He was correcting your transliteration.
> Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
> is very near to "supervise" and those who "supervise" are called
In the Slavic languages, "nad" (and variants) is a prefix attached to
"zor" (and variants), "zor" being the root. Therefore "nadzor" (and
variants) doesn't constitute a root. In Arabic, n*DH*r is a root
meaning "to look."
Now, if you want to try to argue that the first letter of the Arabic
root is also a "prefix," and further to explain the missing "d" from
"nad," and further still that your newly posited *DH*r is related to
the Slavic root "z[o]r.", then go for it, but you'd still be wasting
your time, since they are unrelated. It's just a coincidence.
"Any given language pair contains just enough coincidental lexical
similarities to convince linguistic neophytes that there is an
undiscovered genetic link between the two languages." - The Adler
theory of coincidental lexical similarity between languages
And if you don't believe me, you should see the list of linguistic
coincidences I've compiled for Japanese and English.
Not that any of this will stop you.
Marc
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Feb 21, 1:13?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
:> : Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. nad-zor (supervision);
:> : Czech do-zor; Pol. nadz??r (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
:>
:> na*DH*a:ra(t)
: And what is your point? Do you think of Aramaic NDR (vow; nthar;
ifyou change the transliteration to a more proper the similarity
dissapears.
: nethra, nziru), Arabic nadhara (vow, dedicate, promise), Hebrew nazar
: (dedicate, consecrate, separate)?
that's nonemphatic *dh* different word,different root.
: Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Feb 21, 2:04 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And what is your point?
>
> He was correcting your transliteration.
>
> > Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
> > is very near to "supervise" and those who "supervise" are called
>
> In the Slavic languages, "nad" (and variants) is a prefix attached to
> "zor" (and variants), "zor" being the root.
Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
Ross Clark
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 21, 2:04 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And what is your point?
>
> He was correcting your transliteration.
>
> > Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
> > is very near to "supervise" and those who "supervise" are called
>
> In the Slavic languages, "nad" (and variants) is a prefix attached to
> "zor" (and variants), "zor" being the root. Therefore "nadzor" (and
> variants) doesn't constitute a root. In Arabic, n*DH*r is a root
> meaning "to look."
First, the Arabic "root" for look cannot be your n*DH*r because the
Arabic word nadzar is derived from two basis: n@(d) + zhr (to be
visible, light; cf. Serb/Slav. zora dawn; Arabic sahhar; Serb.
Zornjača Venus; Arabic Zuhara Venus; Serbian personal name Zora,
Arabic Zohra - both with the meaning "dawn"). The way in which the
linguistic science treats Semitic "roots" is absolutely wrong; it
means that reality is quite different - Semitic "primal bases" (of
words) are probably the same as those in IE.
> Now, if you want to try to argue that the first letter of the Arabic
> root is also a "prefix," and further to explain the missing "d" from
> "nad," and further still that your newly posited *DH*r is related to
> the Slavic root "z[o]r.", then go for it, but you'd still be wasting
> your time, since they are unrelated. It's just a coincidence.
>
> "Any given language pair contains just enough coincidental lexical
> similarities to convince linguistic neophytes that there is an
> undiscovered genetic link between the two languages." - The Adler
> theory of coincidental lexical similarity between languages
This definition seem to be incomplete. You say "language pair...
between two languages". Between which languages? Maybe you thought
"between two languages of different language families"? The so called
"false friends" between two Europen IE languages are just a kind of
semantic changes, while "false cognates" are absolutely impossible
among European languages (excluding Albanian and Armenian).
> And if you don't believe me, you should see the list of linguistic
> coincidences I've compiled for Japanese and English.
Yes, in case of English and Japanese "false cognates/" are quite
normal... nothing unusual. These languages do not belong to the same
language family and, according to probability calculus, similar
linguistic (randomly "matching") coincidences are resonable and
clearly possible (foreseeable) result.
> Not that any of this will stop you.
Stop me!?
I do not understand what are you aiming at?
DV
Marc
> Stop me!?
> I do not understand what are you aiming at?
I've said what I have to say about the matter. Enjoy your theorizing.
Marc
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 21, 2:43 pm, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Stop me!?
> > I do not understand what are you aiming at?
>
> I've said what I have to say about the matter. Enjoy your theorizing.
>
> Marc
You are theorizing with your "theory of coincidental lexical
similarity between languages". Anyone can see that it is not the same
if we speak about relation between English and Japanese or English and
German. Your "coincidental formula" is generalizing and putting under
the same "umbrella" very complex and very different language families,
what is (from the scientific point of view) absolutely inadmissible.
It means that you neglected obvious differences among languages
originating from different language families (on one side), and
ignored the internal relations among languages within the one specific
language family (on the other).
Maybe you believe that you have said something significant via your
"coincidental theory", but in reality, your "theory of coincidental
lexical similarity between languages" is nothing else but a pure
"philosophy of emptiness".
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:9e5a6964-39e4-4d3c...@b29g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > And what is your point?
>>
>> He was correcting your transliteration.
>>
>> > Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate"
>> > is very near to "supervise" and those who "supervise" are called
>>
>> In the Slavic languages, "nad" (and variants) is a prefix attached to
>> "zor" (and variants), "zor" being the root.
>
>Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
>calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
>Ross Clark
I thought of "beaufsichtigen", "ueberwachung", and "surveiller".
The one that I know is a bit unusual is Czech "dozor".
Instead of "nad" (over), it uses "do" (towards).
>> Therefore "nadzor" (and
>> variants) doesn't constitute a root. In Arabic, n*DH*r is a root
>> meaning "to look."
>>
>> Now, if you want to try to argue that the first letter of the Arabic
>> root is also a "prefix," and further to explain the missing "d" from
>> "nad," and further still that your newly posited *DH*r is related to
>> the Slavic root "z[o]r.", then go for it, but you'd still be wasting
>> your time, since they are unrelated. It's just a coincidence.
This has been pointed out to Dusan several times over the last
several months and years. We have to accept the fact that he is
not going to change his mind about comparing apples with oranges.
He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
pjk
Marc
<paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> >Ross Clark
The fact that such calques work has always fascinated me. Could there
be a kind of conceptual substrate that allows such calques to make
sense? They certainly don't in Japanese, for example.
I was surprised to find out that vliyat' is a one-to-one calque on "in-
fluence" ("flow in"), but there are other turns of phrases which are
clearly ancient, and which match similar phrases in other European
languages.
> The one that I know is a bit unusual is Czech "dozor".
> Instead of "nad" (over), it uses "do" (towards).
Well, "supervise" would actually be "verxzor" in Russian, wouldn't it?
"Do" does seem like a bit of a departure, but luckily for Dushan,
that's not the way it works in his native language, so he can easily
dismiss it.
> He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
Well, he seems a lot more harmless than global warming.
Then again, I'm not a rabid right-winger, so my views on global
warming are probably a lot more stringent than, say, a Bush
supporter's are.
Marc
Heidi Graw
>"Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
>news:fpifn6$aaa$1...@pcls6.std.com...
(snip)
>>Dusan wrote:
>>Arabic nadzara (supervision);
>
> Yusuf corrected:
> na*DH*a:ra(t)
Heidi chimes in with:
MHG:
nadharat...nater-rat...snake rede...snake advice...a salesman's snake oil.
A lot of folks buy into it. One of the earliest consumers of nadharat
(nater-rat) was Eve. Thank goodness Embla wasn't quite so gullible. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Paul J Kriha
news:4bc07735-2945-44e1...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "Paul J Kriha"
> <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> > >Ross Clark
>
> The fact that such calques work has always fascinated me. Could there
> be a kind of conceptual substrate that allows such calques to make
> sense? They certainly don't in Japanese, for example.
>
> I was surprised to find out that vliyat' is a one-to-one calque on "in-
> fluence" ("flow in"), but there are other turns of phrases which are
> clearly ancient, and which match similar phrases in other European
> languages.
The Slavic languages are full of calques like that. For centuries
calquing was a prefered method of acquiring new vocabulary
from other languages rather than outright borrowing. Like many
other calques, the R. "vliyat'" or Cz. "vliv" are based on Slavic
roots, prefixes (or sufixes); while E. "influence" is borrowing
from medieval Latin.
> > The one that I know is a bit unusual is Czech "dozor".
> > Instead of "nad" (over), it uses "do" (towards).
>
> Well, "supervise" would actually be "verxzor" in Russian, wouldn't it?
"Verx" feels too static, it means just top or summit. My guess is
that "super" is more likely to be calqued as "sverx" which gives
it a sense of direction from top down. Let's see if I can recall any
examples... Oh yes, superman is "sverxchelovyek". Having
studied electrical engineering and having read some Russian
technical literature I should remember superconductor as
"sverxprovodnik".
The added bonus is that the Russian superman is not gender
specific. :-)
> "Do" does seem like a bit of a departure, but luckily for Dushan,
> that's not the way it works in his native language, so he can easily
> dismiss it.
I guess, Czechs found the adjacent voiced "d" and "z" in "nadzor"
to difficult to pronounce and when they reduced it to "nazor"
it clashed with another Cz word (another calque?) "názor" (opinion).
So they plumbed for "dozor", "do" (into/towards) + "zor" (sight)
followed by more words derived from that.
> > He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
>
> Well, he seems a lot more harmless than global warming.
Would he still be harmless, if everybody started to believe him?
:-)
> Then again, I'm not a rabid right-winger, so my views on global
> warming are probably a lot more stringent than, say, a Bush
> supporter's are.
Unfortunately, American politics is a "spanish village" to me. :-)
pjk
> Marc
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "Paul J Kriha"
> <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> > >Ross Clark
Ross, could you be more specific? What do you mean by saying that
"'nadzor' is clearly a European-area calque"? If Slavic 'nad-zor' is
a loan translation, does it mean that that word is borrowed and
translated from Latin, Greek...? For instance, English superman is a
calque for the German Übermensch, but Serbian natčovek (superman)
couldn't be taken as a strict calque because there "always" were the
Serbian words natčovečanski (superhuman) and natprirodan
(supernatural).
> The fact that such calques work has always fascinated me. Could there
> be a kind of conceptual substrate that allows such calques to make
> sense? They certainly don't in Japanese, for example.
I would like to hear Mark's definition of "calque" too. I think that a
certain (maybe highly developed?) form of philosophical thinking was
present in human mind even before the ancient man was able to
articulate his thoughts with the help of vocal tract. It could have
meant that any specific language must have followed the "prescribed
model" or an inborn "internal pattern" in order to verbalize the
"global understanding" of the Earthly and Heavenly "reality".
> I was surprised to find out that vliyat' is a one-to-one calque on "in-
> fluence" ("flow in"), but there are other turns of phrases which are
> clearly ancient, and which match similar phrases in other European
> languages.
Serbian 'u-pliv' (flow in, influence) is much closer to English flow.
You are mentioning "calque" again? What makes you sure that Russian
влияние/vlyaniye (Czech vliv, Serb. upliv) are calques on Latin
'influentem'?
> > The one that I know is a bit unusual is Czech "dozor".
> > Instead of "nad" (over), it uses "do" (towards).
>
> Well, "supervise" would actually be "verxzor" in Russian, wouldn't it?
> "Do" does seem like a bit of a departure, but luckily for Dushan,
> that's not the way it works in his native language, so he can easily
> dismiss it.
Russian 'verh' (top, peak, mountain; Serb. vrh, Czech vrch) is related
to Slavic breg (hill, coast) and German berg;
Would you like to know how? ;-)
DV
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Feb 22, 5:32 am, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "Paul J Kriha"
> > <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > > >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> > > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> > > >Ross Clark
>
> Ross, could you be more specific? What do you mean by saying that
> "'nadzor' is clearly a European-area calque"? If Slavic 'nad-zor' is
> a loan translation, does it mean that that word is borrowed and
> translated from Latin, Greek...? For instance, English superman is a
> calque for the German Übermensch, but Serbian natčovek (superman)
> couldn't be taken as a strict calque because there "always" were the
> Serbian words natčovečanski (superhuman) and natprirodan
> (supernatural).
"Always"? How on earth would you know? Maybe you just mean "already".
"Superhuman" and "supernatural" are some centuries older than
"Ubermensch". That doesn't make any of them any less a calque.
Ross Clark
phog...@abo.fi
wrote:
>
> He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
LOL!
You could say the same about Fränzeli the Zytglogge and Heidi the
Hebrew-is-German.
phog...@abo.fi
>
>
> Hog Loony, are you really so stupid?
> How many times I have to tell you that this is a language forum?
> Are you trying to outplay the Maharaja's mental dullness and a similar
> unmitigated effrontery?
You are a very bad man, Dushan.
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> On Feb 22, 10:35 pm, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 22, 5:32 am, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "Paul J Kriha"
> > > <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > > > >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> > > > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> > > > >Ross Clark
>
> > Ross, could you be more specific? What do you mean by saying that
> > "'nadzor' is clearly a European-area calque"? If Slavic 'nad-zor' is
> > a loan translation, does it mean that that word is borrowed and
> > translated from Latin, Greek...? For instance, English superman is a
> > calque for the German Übermensch, but Serbian natčovek (superman)
> > couldn't be taken as a strict calque because there "always" were the
> > Serbian words natčovečanski (superhuman) and natprirodan
> > (supernatural).
>
> "Always"? How on earth would you know? Maybe you just mean "already".
> "Superhuman" and "supernatural" are some centuries older than
> "Ubermensch". That doesn't make any of them any less a calque.
>
> Ross Clark
As you can see, I used quotations ("always")! It means that
'natčovečanski' and 'natprirodno' are very old words. These two words
existed from the most ancient times; i.e. from those times in the past
we are able to comprehend.
If these words were a calque than the whole Slavic vocabulary could be
understood as a "collection" of translated loan words.
A very daring assumption, indeed!
DV
> > DV- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Dušan Vukotić
Adder: Old Irish nathir, Welsh neidr, Cornish nader (probably from
Latin natrix /a water snake/; also related to Spanish 'nadar' (swim);
All these seem to be related to the Aramaic lemma NHR (shine,
illuminate, to be clear; /nahrā/ river, nāhar /morning time/).
Of course, the above words demand a much deeper explanation ;-)
DV
phog...@abo.fi
>
> As you can see, I used quotations ("always")! It means that
> 'natčovečanski' and 'natprirodno' are very old words. These two words
> existed from the most ancient times; i.e. from those times in the past
> we are able to comprehend.
LOL!
You should take the trouble of reading a scholarly volume about
Slavonic languages some time.
http://www.routledgelanguages.com/books/The-Slavonic-Languages-isbn9780415280785
benl...@ihug.co.nz
In the case of Serbian, how far back would that be?
> If these words were a calque than the whole Slavic vocabulary could be
> understood as a "collection" of translated loan words.
?? Non sequitur.
Ross Clark
Paul J Kriha
news:1f4791e1-a733-4088...@z70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
No, I see Fränzeli more like a slow but inexorable, unstoppable
flood, pushing ahead of him an ever-growing mudslide of three
letter objects, and Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
Time-to-time Dusan to turns up in his black guard uniform and
translates for her a few words in PIS (Proto Indo-Serbian).
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Marc" <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4bc07735-2945-44e1...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "Paul J Kriha"
> > <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > > >Someone should mention that "nadzor" is clearly a European-area
> > > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
> > > >Ross Clark
>
> > The fact that such calques work has always fascinated me. Could there
> > be a kind of conceptual substrate that allows such calques to make
> > sense? They certainly don't in Japanese, for example.
>
> > I was surprised to find out that vliyat' is a one-to-one calque on "in-
> > fluence" ("flow in"), but there are other turns of phrases which are
> > clearly ancient, and which match similar phrases in other European
> > languages.
>
> The Slavic languages are full of calques like that.
Kriha, your surname is an abortive calque of German Kirche. Is there
any prefixed Slavic word that is not calque? I bet you would say that
AS neálǽcan (approach) is the "father" of Serbian naleganje
(adjacency) as well as Serbian prići (approach) is a wrongly heard
French aprochier. Can you imagine that Latin privatus (private) is a
counterpart word to Serbian pripadati/pripada (belong, belongs;
privatus <= pribatus)?
Following your, Mark's and Ross' twisted logic and considering the
above-mentioned words we could have concluded that Serbian nalaktiti
(to elbow) is a calque of Latin incubo, Serbian prići is a calque of
Latin propinquo (cf. Serbian oblaziti /ob-bilaziti going around, near/
and Latin appulsus), and, finally, Serbian pripadati is a translated
Latin loanword pertineo?!
> > Well, "supervise" would actually be "verxzor" in Russian, wouldn't it?
AFAK, there is no such word in Russian. Of course, it could be coined
as a neologism "over-see". English over (German ober; über) is related
to Russian verh (Serbian vrh/vr; Serbian 'u vrhu'; 'u vr:u' or just
'uvr' /on top/).
DV
Heidi Graw
>"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:47bf...@clear.net.nz...
> <phog...@abo.fi> wrote in message
> news:1f4791e1-a733-4088...@z70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>On Feb 22, 6:25 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
>>
>>>LOL!
>>phog wrote:
>>You could say the same about Fränzeli the Zytglogge and Heidi the
>>Hebrew-is-German.
You might want to wipe off the steam from your lenses.
> Paul wrote:
> No, I see Fränzeli more like a slow but inexorable, unstoppable
> flood, pushing ahead of him an ever-growing mudslide of three
> letter objects,
Well, Franzelchen did play in the sandbox with his toy
trucks and tractors.
>and Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
Amazing insight, Paul. I'm massively impressed. As a toddler
I used to sit in the laundry basket looking at picture books and
imagining a story. I had my teddies and my dollies as companions
while Mother was busy doing other things. I'd be in that laundry
basket for hours on end, happy as can be entertaining myself
with my own stories. ;-)
> Time-to-time Dusan to turns up in his black guard uniform and
> translates for her a few words in PIS (Proto Indo-Serbian).
Well, I dunno, Paul. I think you got your present name
via a series of spelling mistakes.
Krecho*, Krehho, Krehha, Krihha, Kriha...
Krehho in AHG means "Schwätzer...chatterbox."
Heidi
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> <phogl...@abo.fi> wrote in message
You forgot to mention your own idée (pre)fixe, calqued as Paul-loony
Kirke-(b)lund` ;-)
DV
`Compare Danish blund (slumber) and Serbian bludan, bludeti (waste
time; spend time idly or inefficiently) and poludeti (madden); Serbian
bludan (wanton) is opposite of budan (awake)
Dušan Vukotić
> >"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> >news:47bf...@clear.net.nz...
> > <phogl...@abo.fi> wrote in message
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> As a toddler
> I used to sit in the laundry basket looking at picture books and
> imagining a story. I had my teddies and my dollies as companions
> while Mother was busy doing other things. I'd be in that laundry
> basket for hours on end, happy as can be entertaining myself
> with my own stories. ;-)
Ahá! Spending all that time in a laundry basket explains why Heidi von
Hühnerhirn turned into a basket case.
~~~ Reinhold (Rey) Aman ~~~
Dušan Vukotić
Well done Heidi, well done!
As any intelligent person can see, you are the invincible Empress of
Wisdom!
In "PIS", mentioned by Kriha, his name could be compared to the
following Serbian words: krik (Schrei, cry), kričati (shouting like a
spoiled child or a crazed preacher).
Evidently, it doesn't matter if we look at "Proto-Indo-Slavic" or
"Proto-Indo-Germanic", because in both language families Kriha's name
has the same or close meaning: chatterer, magpie..
Serbian 'kreja' (black-and-white crow that utters a raucous chattering
call)
Kriha the Prater ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
We all can see now how grotesque it looks when a "gifted" fool
(Raymond - Rain Man) tries to be witty.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Now I spotted that the Raymond's (Rain Man) real name is Reinhold.
What a peculiar phenomenon!
DV
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:fe831076-0b2d-4a2e...@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 22, 8:51 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> "Marc" <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4bc07735-2945-44e1...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > > >calque, exactly matching "oversee", "supervise" and even "episkopos".
>> > > >Ross Clark
>>
>> > The fact that such calques work has always fascinated me. Could there
>> > be a kind of conceptual substrate that allows such calques to make
>> > sense? They certainly don't in Japanese, for example.
>>
>> > I was surprised to find out that vliyat' is a one-to-one calque on "in-
>> > fluence" ("flow in"), but there are other turns of phrases which are
>> > clearly ancient, and which match similar phrases in other European
>> > languages.
>>
>> The Slavic languages are full of calques like that.
>
>Kriha, your surname is an abortive calque of German Kirche.
You know how to spell calque, now it's time to learn what it means.
My name is definitely not related to "kirche", but EVEN IF it were,
it would be either borrowing or cognate. I have no doubt, you'd find
it very, very, useful if you learned the difference between the three.
However, since my name is praying on your mind. I put your mind
at rest regarding the history of it. When some 1000 years ago
Europeans accepted Christianity a number of freshly baptised people
were christened in various versions of the (borrowed) name, "Kristos".
Over the following centuries the names became spelled and pronounced
in even greater different ways in various, from obvious "Christian"
and "Christianson" to "Krisha", "Kryha", and many others. In Southern
Bohemia, the name already spelled "Kriha" (a farming estate) is first
documented around the 15th century. It's about 600 years too late
to be originated there so it probably crossed over from Bavaria/Upper
Austria where it is also known.
>Is there any prefixed Slavic word that is not calque?
Co?
Of course there is. Good grief, what are you talking about? :-(
Vast majority of them, obviously, are not calques of any sort.
>I bet you would say that
>AS neálǽcan (approach) is the "father" of Serbian naleganje
>(adjacency) as well as Serbian prići (approach) is a wrongly heard
>French aprochier. Can you imagine that Latin privatus (private) is a
>counterpart word to Serbian pripadati/pripada (belong, belongs;
>privatus <= pribatus)?
Ke?
>Following your, Mark's and Ross' twisted logic and considering the
>above-mentioned words we could have concluded that Serbian nalaktiti
>(to elbow) is a calque of Latin incubo, Serbian prići is a calque of
>Latin propinquo (cf. Serbian oblaziti /ob-bilaziti going around, near/
>and Latin appulsus), and, finally, Serbian pripadati is a translated
>Latin loanword pertineo?!
Bzzzzzzzt.
That went completely way out over my head.
>> > Well, "supervise" would actually be "verxzor" in Russian, wouldn't it?
>
>AFAK, there is no such word in Russian. Of course, it could be coined
>as a neologism "over-see". English over (German ober; über) is related
>to Russian verh (Serbian vrh/vr; Serbian 'u vrhu'; 'u vr:u' or just
>'uvr' /on top/).
As I already said elsewhere, Russian often calques "super" as "sverx",
as in the calque of superman and suchlike. In case of "nadzor",
they used "nad". It's likely it was another Slavic language which
calqued it first and since it was already making sense in all Slavic
languages most of them borrowed it unchanged.
I guess, in majority of Slavic languages it's in fact a borrowed calque.
pjk
>
>DV
lora...@cs.com
They aren't... at least not directly; Latin 'flu' is quite at a
distance from both 'pli' and 'vil'.
The intervening missing link would likely be 'plu' ; the basis of
Baltic 'plude' ('flood') and Germanic 'flood')...
And looks to be the antecedent of the Serbian example 'u-pliv';
literally 'flood in/on'... which is quite separate from the meaning of
'overseeing' or 'directing' anything.
And the proof of that statement lies in the prior existence of Baltic
'plivi' and 'vili(nat)' roots (to 'wave' and to 'compell').
It is unlikely that medieval Latin (or Turkic) would be the source of
allegedly calqued Slavic variants when genetically related roots were
more proximal and perhaps even indigenous (at that point in time).
...and again, these latter are *two different roots* that apparently
have been adapted (compounded) in the above Slavic examples.
And once again all of you linguists have exhibited typical lacunae as
regards the influential existence of Baltic in Europe.
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> >> The Slavic languages are full of calques like that.
> >Kriha, your surname is an abortive calque of German Kirche.
> You know how to spell calque, now it's time to learn what it means.
Not calque but "abortive calque", can't you read!
> My name is definitely not related to "kirche", but EVEN IF it were,
> it would be either borrowing or cognate. I have no doubt, you'd find
> it very, very, useful if you learned the difference between the three.
Of course, it is not related to Kirche...I was joking; but when Heidi
mentioned Germanic 'kriha' I realized that your surname might have
been connected to the Czech křičet, křičící, křik (cry, crying); cf.
Serb. Kričković, Kričko/v, Plačković (from kričati. plakati /cry,
shout, whine/; Czech křičet, plakat, pláč; Russ. кричать, плакать;
Slavic krik /cry/).
There are the Serbian names as Krsto, Krstan, Krstina or family name
Krstić, Križanić, Krišković clearly related to the word 'cross' (krst,
križati, križanje; Czech kříž; surname Križan) .
All the above words are derived from the primal Hor-Gon basis; i.e.
from the Egyptian Horus or Slavic Hors sun divinity. As everyone can
see, the sun has a rounded form (Slavic krug, Greek krikos, Latin
circus; Eng. circle), and according to the other characteristics of
the sun: the emanation of light/heat we "obtained" the words like
Slavic 'goreti/gorenje' (burn, burning) and grom (thunder; from
grunuti => grmnuti => grmeti /explode, blow up, thunder; crack,
crackle/; Czech hrom, hřmět).
Could you imagine that English 'burning' is a word that has been born
from Bel-Hor-Gon basis (Serb. pogoreti /burn down/; poharati /
plunder/). The same happened to the words as English 'fire' and
Serbian 'požar' (fire; Hittite pahhur; Greek φρύγω fry; φρυγανον
firewood; Serb. prženje frying; Greek πυριγονος producing fire, Serb.
purenje burning).
Now, let us analyse the Czech word kruh (circle; okruh, kružnice). Is
it not possible that Czech kruh (or Serbian krug) is a source of the
words gyrate (Lat. girus circle) and rotate; Latin torno -are; OE
turnian (from hurnian and gyrate; Serb. okret turn)? We are entering
the most interesting part of our story: is the Czech word kruh
(circle) related to križ (cross)? When I talked earlier that "circle"
and "cross" (krug, križ, krst) are the words derived from the same Hor-
Gon basis, you denied it emphatically. Compare the Serbian word kruh
(bread) and kriška (slice; from križanje cutting); obviously Serbian
bread is called like that (kruh) in accordance with its rounded shape
and "kriška hleba" is a "piece/slice of bread".
In this moment, I hope, you are able to understand that Slavic word
kružok (Russ. кружок coterie, a small society, a small circle of
people) is a "source" of the other Slavic word as družina (company)
and društvo (society; a clear-cut velar to dental sound change; cf.
group => troupe; Czech družba friendship; Serb. drugovi friends; Russ.
дружба from druže-ljublje; дружелюбие; Slavic drug/druh friend; družba
from Hor-Gon-Bel basis). In addition, I believe that you now could
grasp that Slavic word deržava (Serb. država; Русс. держава /state,
country/) is equal to Slavic kraj, krajina, okrug (district; Russ.
округ, район; Lat. (x)regio -onis).
Finaly, compare Serbian words država (state, country) and kraljevina
(kingdom; Czech království; Russ. королевство) and you will see that
both of these words were derived from the same Hor-Gon-Bel basis as
well as the Slavic word cerkva (Serb. crkva; Russ. церковь; Czech
církev from krugovi /circles/ => drugovi /friends/; kruženje /
circling/ => kružok /coterie/ => druženje /frienship/).
DV
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> >Is there any prefixed Slavic word that is not calque?
>
> Co?
>
> Of course there is. Good grief, what are you talking about? :-(
> Vast majority of them, obviously, are not calques of any sort.
And what is difference between "obvious calque" and "obvious not
calque"? Why the Russian vord vliyanie (Czech vliv, ovlivňovat;
Serbian upliv) should be treated as calque? What are we going to do
with the words as Serbian uploviti (sail into), uplivati (swim into)
and even u/balaviti (salivate; cf. Serbian sliv /watershed/, slivati /
pouring down, merge/)? Is there any relations between Czech vliv and
Latin velivolus (Serbian plovljenje, oplovljavanje sailing; sailing
around)? I hope you are now able to grasp all the absurdity of your
statement that Slavic v/liv, u/plov-, po/plav-, u/pliv-, is/plov-
etc. are calques on an uknown word from non-Slavic IE vocabulary.
> >I bet you would say that
> >AS neálǽcan (approach) is the "father" of Serbian naleganje
> >(adjacency) as well as Serbian prići (approach) is a wrongly heard
> >French aprochier. Can you imagine that Latin privatus (private) is a
> >counterpart word to Serbian pripadati/pripada (belong, belongs;
> >privatus <= pribatus)?
>
> Ke?
> >Following your, Mark's and Ross' twisted logic and considering the
> >above-mentioned words we could have concluded that Serbian nalaktiti
> >(to elbow) is a calque of Latin incubo, Serbian prići is a calque of
> >Latin propinquo (cf. Serbian oblaziti /ob-bilaziti going around, near/
> >and Latin appulsus), and, finally, Serbian pripadati is a translated
> >Latin loanword pertineo?!
>
> Bzzzzzzzt.
>
> That went completely way out over my head.
I believed you are more levelheaded... Sorry for bothering your
wretched intellectual functions. ;-)
DV
Marc
> All the above words are derived from the primal Hor-Gon basis; i.e.
> from the Egyptian Horus or Slavic Hors sun divinity. As everyone can
Paul, dude, seriously? You're actually going to engage this guy in a
discussion?
Dušan, Heidi, Franz, and their ilk always remind me of a scene in
Tarkovsky's "Stalker" where one of the guys tells a joke: "A man is
walking and finds another man neck-deep in a swamp. He pulls him out
after much effort, and they collapse on the ground. The guy who had
been in the swamp turns to his rescuer and says: What the hell are you
doing? That's where I live!" (Paraphrased from memory.)
In other words, Paul, these people live in the swamp. They don't want
to be rescued.
Marc
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 24, 4:12 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > All the above words are derived from the primal Hor-Gon basis; i.e.
> > from the Egyptian Horus or Slavic Hors sun divinity. As everyone can
>
> Paul, dude, seriously? You're actually going to engage this guy in a
> discussion?
>
> Tarkovsky's "Stalker" where one of the guys tells a joke: "A man is
> walking and finds another man neck-deep in a swamp. He pulls him out
> after much effort, and they collapse on the ground. The guy who had
> been in the swamp turns to his rescuer and says: What the hell are you
> doing? That's where I live!" (Paraphrased from memory.)
>
> In other words, Paul, these people live in the swamp. They don't want
> to be rescued.
>
> Marc
Sorry Marc,
But you have disqualified yourself by your stupified "coincidental
language pair theory"; where you demonstrated a striking intellectual
incapability to distinguish relations among languages of the same
language family from the relation between a pair of languages from
different lnguage families.
Now you are trying to find an ally who is in a similar subdued
position as you are! ;-)
Poor Marc, why do you not try to stand up and fight like a man? No one
likes the stupid loser, especially not the whining one.
DV
Marc
> But you have disqualified yourself by your stupified "coincidental
> language pair theory"; where you demonstrated a striking intellectual
> incapability to distinguish relations among languages of the same
> language family from the relation between a pair of languages from
> different lnguage families.
Well, at least I'm in good company.
Marc
Dušan Vukotić
I doubt that anyone on sci.lang would like to be seen in company with
a person who is old-fashioned-swamp-mind-minder and who, through his
own words, showed himself not only as a linguistically ignorant fop
but also as an unrivaled example of an irreparable intellectual
wreckage.
DV
Marc
> a linguistically ignorant fop
> but also as an unrivaled example of an irreparable intellectual
> wreckage.
You're too kind.
No, really.
Marc
benl...@ihug.co.nz
On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he concludes
that attempting rational discussion with you is a waste of time.
Ross Clark
Brian M. Scott
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in
<news:dba3ed04-1aa9-462d...@41g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Feb 25, 5:27 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 24, 4:32 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 24, 8:48 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> But you have disqualified yourself by your stupified
>>>> "coincidental language pair theory"; where you
>>>> demonstrated a striking intellectual incapability to
>>>> distinguish relations among languages of the same
>>>> language family from the relation between a pair of
>>>> languages from different lnguage families.
>>> Well, at least I'm in good company.
>> I doubt that anyone on sci.lang would like to be seen in
>> company with a person who is
>> old-fashioned-swamp-mind-minder and who, through his own
>> words, showed himself not only as a linguistically
>> ignorant fop but also as an unrivaled example of an
>> irreparable intellectual wreckage.
> On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he
> concludes that attempting rational discussion with you is
> a waste of time.
I'll join this disreputable association.
Brian
Yusuf B Gursey
: In sci.lang Du?an Vukoti? <dusan....@gmail.com> wrote in
<5f324fe8-a34e-4347...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>:
: : Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. ??????-??????/nad-zor (supervision);
: : Czech do-zor; Pol. nadz??r (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision);
: na*DH*a:ra(t)
: : Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. n??zer (overseer), nazar (sight,
: : vision);
the persian and turkish words are loanwords from arabic.
: : False cognates? :-)
: : For Kriha and Brainy: Slavic nadzor is nad- (over-) prefixed word (nad-
: : zor).
: : DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:33:27 -0800 (PST),
> <news:dba3ed04-1aa9-462d...@41g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 5:27 am, "Duðan Vukotiã" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 24, 4:32 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> But you have disqualified yourself by your stupified
> >>>> "coincidental language pair theory"; where you
> >>>> demonstrated a striking intellectual incapability to
> >>>> distinguish relations among languages of the same
> >>>> language family from the relation between a pair of
> >>>> languages from different lnguage families.
> >>> Well, at least I'm in good company.
> >> I doubt that anyone on sci.lang would like to be seen in
> >> company with a person who is
> >> old-fashioned-swamp-mind-minder and who, through his own
> >> words, showed himself not only as a linguistically
> >> ignorant fop but also as an unrivaled example of an
> >> irreparable intellectual wreckage.
> > On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he
> > concludes that attempting rational discussion with you is
> > a waste of time.
>
> I'll join this disreputable association.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Anybody else? :-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he concludes
> that attempting rational discussion with you is a waste of time.
Very good; but you are not in company with Marc when his stupid
"coincidental theory" is in question, are you? ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> <news:dba3ed04-1aa9-462d...@41g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 5:27 am, "Duðan Vukotiã" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 24, 4:32 pm, Marc <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> But you have disqualified yourself by your stupified
> >>>> "coincidental language pair theory"; where you
> >>>> demonstrated a striking intellectual incapability to
> >>>> distinguish relations among languages of the same
> >>>> language family from the relation between a pair of
> >>>> languages from different lnguage families.
> >>> Well, at least I'm in good company.
> >> I doubt that anyone on sci.lang would like to be seen in
> >> company with a person who is
> >> old-fashioned-swamp-mind-minder and who, through his own
> >> words, showed himself not only as a linguistically
> >> ignorant fop but also as an unrivaled example of an
> >> irreparable intellectual wreckage.
> > On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he
> > concludes that attempting rational discussion with you is
> > a waste of time.
>
> I'll join this disreputable association.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
It could not be regarded as an advantage to have the copy/paste Brainy
on your side.:-)
DV
benl...@ihug.co.nz
You mean the "theory" that form-meaning resemblances may be the result
of coincidence?
Hardly a theory, rather a common observation.
Only the seriously deluded try to deny it.
Ross Clark
Dušan Vukotić
OK, you are trying to avoid the direct answer... or you hadn't been
reading the famous Marc's "theory" (The Adler theory of coincidental
lexical similarity between languages; http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/a29972df307fcdf4?
).
If you support Marc and his scientific gibberish, how do you dare to
denigrate one of his most important "contributions" to linguistic
science by saying that it is "hardly a theory"?
DV
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Marc's "theory" is an amusing observation of a special case of the
above general truth.
I have seen it exemplified time and time again on sci.lang.
Someone like you, who is playing a private word-game, could reduce
confusion by not misrepresenting it as "linguistics" or parading words
like "scientific" around.
Ross Clark
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 25, 8:41 pm, "Duðan Vukotiã" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 7:43 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> > > > > On the contrary, I am already in company with Marc when he concludes
> > > > > that attempting rational discussion with you is a waste of time.
>
> > > > Very good; but you are not in company with Marc when his stupid
> > > > "coincidental theory" is in question, are you? ;-)
>
> > > > DV
>
> > > You mean the "theory" that form-meaning resemblances may be the result
> > > of coincidence?
> > > Hardly a theory, rather a common observation.
> > > Only the seriously deluded try to deny it.
>
> > > Ross Clark
>
> > OK, you are trying to avoid the direct answer... or you hadn't been
> > reading the famous Marc's "theory" (The Adler theory of coincidental
> > lexical similarity between languages;http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/a29972df307fcdf4?
> > ).
>
> > If you support Marc and his scientific gibberish, how do you dare to
> > denigrate one of his most important "contributions" to linguistic
> > science by saying that it is "hardly a theory"?
>
> > DV
>
> Marc's "theory" is an amusing observation of a special case of the
> above general truth.
In other words - a "scientific" joke? I admit I didn't know that Adler
is a harlequin. ;-)
DV
Richard Herring
<hg...@telus.net> writes
[...]
>> Paul wrote:
>> No, I see Fränzeli more like a slow but inexorable, unstoppable
>> flood, pushing ahead of him an ever-growing mudslide of three
>> letter objects,
>
>Well, Franzelchen did play in the sandbox with his toy
>trucks and tractors.
>
>>and Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
>> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
>> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
>> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
>
<applause> ;-)
>
>Amazing insight, Paul. I'm massively impressed. As a toddler
>I used to sit in the laundry basket looking at
[note the verb]
>picture books and
>imagining a story. I had my teddies and my dollies as companions
>while Mother was busy doing other things. I'd be in that laundry
>basket for hours on end, happy as can be entertaining myself
>with my own stories. ;-)
Evidently you haven't changed a bit. It's so much easier to make up your
own stories than to read those big hard books :-(
--
Richard Herring
phog...@abo.fi
phog...@abo.fi
wrote:
> <phogl...@abo.fi> wrote in message
>
> news:1f4791e1-a733-4088...@z70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Feb 22, 6:25 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> >wrote:
>
> >> He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
>
> >LOL!
>
> >Hebrew-is-German.
>
> flood, pushing ahead of him an ever-growing mudslide of three
> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
> translates for her a few words in PIS (Proto Indo-Serbian).
Make it Proto-Indo-Slaveno-Serbian (Slaveno-Serbian is a term
referring to the kind of Serbian-Church-Slavonic mixture used for
literary purposes in Serbia before Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic introduced
the modern literary language). In that way, you can use the more to
the point abbreviation PISS.
phog...@abo.fi
>
> Well, I dunno, Paul. I think you got your present name
> via a series of spelling mistakes.
>
> Krecho*, Krehho, Krehha, Krihha, Kriha...
>
> Krehho in AHG means "Schwätzer...chatterbox."
I knew that you weren't very bright, Heidi, but I didn't know that you
shared Herr Hitler's views on Czechs and their language. From now on,
I will call you Hitleidi.
phog...@abo.fi
> On Feb 23, 9:11 am, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > >>> He is like an unstoppable force of nature, a global warming.
>
> > >>>LOL!
> > >>You could say the same about Fränzeli the Zytglogge and Heidi the
> > >>Hebrew-is-German.
>
>
> > > Paul wrote:
> > > No, I see Fränzeli more like a slow but inexorable, unstoppable
> > > flood, pushing ahead of him an ever-growing mudslide of three
> > > letter objects,
>
> > trucks and tractors.
>
> > > in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
> > > bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
> > > written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
>
> > imagining a story. I had my teddies and my dollies as companions
> > while Mother was busy doing other things. I'd be in that laundry
> > basket for hours on end, happy as can be entertaining myself
> > with my own stories. ;-)
>
> > > translates for her a few words in PIS (Proto Indo-Serbian).
>
> > via a series of spelling mistakes.
>
> > Krecho*, Krehho, Krehha, Krihha, Kriha...
>
> > Krehho in AHG means "Schwätzer...chatterbox."
>
>
> Well done Heidi, well done!
> As any intelligent person can see, you are the invincible Empress of
> Wisdom!
>
> In "PIS", mentioned by Kriha, his name could be compared to the
> following Serbian words:
So, you don't even know enough about Slavonic languages to know, that
the Czech h uzually corresponds a Serbian g?
If you are looking for a cognate of Kriha (with hacek over the r and
an acute accent over the i, I presume) in Serbian, you should note
that 1) in Czech the old g's have turned into h's, and 2) in Czech
just about anything after a soft consonant has turned into a long i.
(A case in point is the verb líbit se "to please", cf. Polish podobac'
sie, and Russian nravit'sya, which is a cognate of Polish lubic' "to
like" and Russian lyubit' "to like, to love".)
Dušan Vukotić
Hog Loony, you are still alive. Thanks God... I heard the wild boar
hunters shot you?
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:ca72a199-abba-4f0e...@o77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Oh, God, another one who confuses calques with cognates.
Dusan's language is Gibberish most of the time, but when he
said "calque" he meant calque.
Paul J Kriha
news:7e6d4c58-30b2-4122...@72g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...
You presume correctly, which doesn't surprise me.
> in Serbian, you should note
>that 1) in Czech the old g's have turned into h's, and 2) in Czech
>just about anything after a soft consonant has turned into a long i.
Sometimes the sequence of events is slightly different.
Most of the Old Cz dipththongs are reduced into simple,
usually long, Cz vowels sometimes palatalising the originally
hard preceeding consonants.
E.g.: OCz. "rieka" (river) became Cz "r^eka".
"r^" is soft palatalized "r" followed by hard "e".
Compare that to, for example, Russian "ryeka".
>(A case in point is the verb líbit se "to please", cf. Polish podobac'
>sie, and Russian nravit'sya, which is a cognate of Polish lubic' "to
>like" and Russian lyubit' "to like, to love".)
OCz "bieliy" (masc. white) - Cz "bílý"
diphthong "ie" becomes long soft "í". And later still, the
difference in pronunciation of soft "i" and hard "y" is lost.
Today, both "í" and "ý" in "bílý" sound identical. The preceeding
"b" cannot be palatalized and stays unchanged.
pjk
phog...@abo.fi
wrote:
> <phogl...@abo.fi> wrote in message
Nice to hear that my abortive studies of Modern Czech haven't been
entirely wasted.
>
> > in Serbian, you should note
> >that 1) in Czech the old g's have turned into h's, and 2) in Czech
> >just about anything after a soft consonant has turned into a long i.
>
> Sometimes the sequence of events is slightly different.
> Most of the Old Cz dipththongs are reduced into simple,
> usually long, Cz vowels sometimes palatalising the originally
> hard preceeding consonants.
>
> E.g.: OCz. "rieka" (river) became Cz "r^eka".
> "r^" is soft palatalized "r" followed by hard "e".
> Compare that to, for example, Russian "ryeka".
Old Czech looks very similar to Slovak!
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kriha is an eccentric wisecracker, don't you see? :-)
DV
Patrick Karl
> It could not be regarded as an advantage to have the copy/paste Brainy
> on your side.:-)
How you figure? Certainly better than your cockamamie Bel-Gon basis crap.
Brian M. Scott
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
<news:47bf...@clear.net.nz> in sci.lang:
[...]
> No, I see [...] Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
Perfect!
[...]
Brian
Heidi Graw
>"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>news:1a2233d1i7fdh$.dvl6nog0p5xx.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:13:08 +1300, Paul J Kriha
> <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
> <news:47bf...@clear.net.nz> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>> No, I see [...] Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
>> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
>> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
>> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
>
> Perfect!
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
Yes, I *really* like it, too. I know Paul meant to insult me
with the above. But, I think this description is cute and
soooooo utterly me!
I don't find anything offensive about it at all. I want to
be in a place like that. ;-)
Heidi
Paul J Kriha
news:b04f868c-c6fa-4a39...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>DV
Eccentric wisecracker? Why are you so nice all of a sudden?
Is it because I speak three times as many Slavic languages
as you do?
Oh, no, I take that back. You can also speak three:
Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian. :-)
pjk
Paul J Kriha
> >"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> >news:1a2233d1i7fdh$.dvl6nog0p5xx.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:13:08 +1300, Paul J Kriha
> > <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
> > <news:47bf...@clear.net.nz> in sci.lang:
> > [...]
> >>Paul wrote:
> >> No, I see [...] Heidi-hi as a little child left alone by accident
> >> in a large old library, building medieval castles out of old leather-
> >> bound volumes of language dictionaries full of wonderful words
> >> written in weird pictoresque and totally incomprehensible scripts.
> >
> > Perfect!
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Brian
>
> Yes, I *really* like it, too. I know Paul meant to insult me
No, you don't.
Using improved world-wide known Fränzeli method (night, darkness,
bed, closed eyes, whispering, mumbling, humming, Remi Martin, etc.),
I collected my hypoconscious impressions and verbalized them as well,
and as honestly, as I could.
Insults or lack of them happen to be purely co-incidental.
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Dusan Vukotic" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
You forgot Montenegrian! :-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> night, darkness,
> bed, closed eyes, whispering, mumbling, humming, Remi Martin, etc
You have described yourself... subconsciously!
DV
phog...@abo.fi
> On Feb 23, 10:40 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 23, 9:45 am, "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <a...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> > > [...]
>
> > > > As a toddler
> > > > I used to sit in the laundry basket looking at picture books and
> > > > imagining a story. I had my teddies and my dollies as companions
> > > > while Mother was busy doing other things. I'd be in that laundry
> > > > basket for hours on end, happy as can be entertaining myself
> > > > with my own stories. ;-)
>
> > > Hühnerhirn turned into a basket case.
>
> > We all can see now how grotesque it looks when a "gifted" fool
> > (Raymond - Rain Man) tries to be witty.
>
> > DV
>
> Now I spotted that the Raymond's (Rain Man) real name is Reinhold.
What is peculiar, your dyslexia maybe?
phog...@abo.fi
It's Montenegrin, in correct English.
Paul J Kriha
news:46ab2e0f-b70c-4efd...@q70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 24, 5:42 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> >Is there any prefixed Slavic word that is not calque?
>>
>> Co?
>> Of course there is. Good grief, what are you talking about? :-(
>> Vast majority of them, obviously, are not calques of any sort.
>
>And what is difference between "obvious calque" and "obvious not
>calque"?
Quite often there is no way of telling just by looking at the word
whether it's a calque or just one of the zillions of ordinary Slavic
coumpounds. You have to know. If you are lucky you may find
out by other means, e.g. from historical references.
However, there are words that look like having been dropped in
from outer space. They have meaning that cannot be easily explained
by their Slavic environment. "Vliv" meaning influence, seems to be
such a word. Slavic "-liv-", "-lít-", "-lij-", have all something to do with
pouring, raining, floating, etc. One wouldn't normally expect to associate
"vliv" (in-pouring or in-floating) with influence. "Vliv" ("In-fluence") meaning
influence is transplanted from Latin.
You must remember that for a long long time, for a number of centuries,
all (and I mean ALL) educated people in some parts of Europe were
taught and educated in Latin, they readily spoke and wrote medieval Latin.
They may have also spoken in various dialects of their native languages,
but they seldom wrote anything down anything else than Latin or
perhaps Greek. It was quite natural for the Slavs amongst them to calque
words like "influence" into their Slavic ideolects by translating the
constituent parts of the word.
>Why the Russian vord vliyanie (Czech vliv, ovlivňovat;
>Serbian upliv) should be treated as calque? What are we going to do
>with the words as Serbian uploviti (sail into), uplivati (swim into)
>and even u/balaviti (salivate; cf. Serbian sliv /watershed/, slivati /
>pouring down, merge/)? Is there any relations between Czech vliv and
>Latin velivolus (Serbian plovljenje, oplovljavanje sailing; sailing
>around)? I hope you are now able to grasp all the absurdity of your
>statement that Slavic v/liv, u/plov-, po/plav-, u/pliv-, is/plov-
>etc. are calques on an uknown word from non-Slavic IE vocabulary.
It wasn't absurd at all to calque words, very well known words at that,
from non-Slavic vocabulary.
>> >I bet you would say that
>> >AS neálǽcan (approach) is the "father" of Serbian naleganje
>> >(adjacency) as well as Serbian prići (approach) is a wrongly heard
>> >French aprochier. Can you imagine that Latin privatus (private) is a
>> >counterpart word to Serbian pripadati/pripada (belong, belongs;
>> >privatus <= pribatus)?
>>
>> Ke?
>
>> >Following your, Mark's and Ross' twisted logic and considering the
>> >above-mentioned words we could have concluded that Serbian nalaktiti
>> >(to elbow) is a calque of Latin incubo, Serbian prići is a calque of
>> >Latin propinquo (cf. Serbian oblaziti /ob-bilaziti going around, near/
>> >and Latin appulsus), and, finally, Serbian pripadati is a translated
>> >Latin loanword pertineo?!
>>
>> Bzzzzzzzt.
>>
>> That went completely way out over my head.
>
>I believed you are more levelheaded... Sorry for bothering your
>wretched intellectual functions. ;-)
Perhaps being levelheaded, the things may more easily go
over my head?
pjk
>DV
Paul J Kriha
>DV
True, true.... Drats!
But, does that mean they are not all Serbian after all?
pjk
(Caution: Anything you say will be used against you in the court of law)
Marc
wrote:
> But, does that mean they are not all Serbian after all?
Did you hear? Belgrade is buzzing with rumors that Serbia is going to
secede from Serbia. It's got the Serbians hopping mad, of course, but
cooler heads are talking of a compromise along the lines of Bosnia-
Herzegovina. The proposed state would be called Serbia-Serbia.
Let's hope a settlement can be reached without blood.
Marc
Dušan Vukotić
What do you know about blood you bloody idiot!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Every single Slav in the world is the Serb; as well as it is every
German and (H)Roman; or every Serb (Slav) is a German or (H)Roman.
That's what language is telling us.
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:adb9fa0d-06fa-468b...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 27, 1:46 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > But, does that mean they are not all Serbian after all?
>
> Did you hear? Belgrade is buzzing with rumors that Serbia is going to
> secede from Serbia. It's got the Serbians hopping mad, of course, but
> cooler heads are talking of a compromise along the lines of Bosnia-
> Herzegovina. The proposed state would be called Serbia-Serbia.
Oh, I see. Serbia-Serbia, I guess that could a stable federal set-up.
Providing all the states within Serbia-Serbia would receive guaranteed
equal treatment.
> Let's hope a settlement can be reached without blood.
You mean all blood spilled before it's reached?
Surely, you didn't really mean that.
pjk
> Marc
Paul J Kriha
[...]
>Every single Slav in the world is the Serb; as well as it is every
>German and (H)Roman; or every Serb (Slav) is a German or (H)Roman.
>That's what language is telling us.
Yeah, right!
pjk