Magdalenian adventure (year eight, continuation)

[Franz Gnaedinger]

My previous Magdalenian threads:

Lascaux, a lunisolar calendar
(early 2005 - early 2006)
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux.htm

what is etymology? (linguistics and biology)
subtitle
Magdalenian words and compounds 2006/7
(January 23, 2006, till October 3, 2008)
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux2.htm
(Magdalenian dictionary)

Magdalenian experiment (continuation)
(October 7, 2008, till February 2011)
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux4.htm
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux5.htm

Magdalenian experiment (year seven)
(February 24, 2011, till September 12, 2011)

Magdalenian experiment (year seven, continuation)
subtitle
Magdalenian experiment (year eight)
(September 13, 2011, till September 29, 2012)

My rules for a scientific discussion from the late 1990s,
adapted for sci.lang. Everybody who got something -
hopefully interesting - to say about language is welcome.
Only scientific / linguistic arguments count. If you are
not happy with the contributions by someone else,
focus on the claim you find most silly. Just complaining
won't help, offer something better.

[Arnaud F.]

Le samedi 29 septembre 2012 09:38:49 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :


What would happen if a lot of people declare this thread to be span?

Can it block it from growing?

A.

[Harlan Messinger]

For your information, the world doesn't go by your rules (a) which are
wrong; (b) from which you exempt yourself in every way anyway, expecting
only other people to follow them; (c) and which, when people do follow
them, you then discard if following them would mean you'd have to admit
a mistake.

All who are arriving at the beginning of this thread: It's a lost cause.

[Harlan Messinger]

One might well wonder how Franz counts time. Year 7 should be year 7 and
year 8 should be year 8, right? Yet he finished year 8 while something
called year 7 continuation is still running. Perhaps, like Billy
Pilgrim, he has come unstuck in time. That would explain his failure to
understand causality and the temporal disconnectedness of events he
imagines to be related.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Here again my rules for a scientific discussion from
the late 1990s, adopted for sci.lang.

Everybody who got something - hopefully interesting -
to say about language is welcome.

I got a lot to say about language, and so I have a place
in sci.lang. I also welcome people who got to say things
about language. While I do not welcome those who join
sci.lang for playing online killer games.

Only scientific / linguistic arguments count.

Meta-arguments and ad hominems do not count. Never
ending meta- and meta-meta- and meta-meta-meta-
discussions are the drag of the scientific groups on Usenet.
You have to confess your own opinion, you can't hide forever
behind meta-arguments. In August 2008 I formulated my
first Magdalenian test case, bear as the furry one versus
bear as the brown one. Harlan Messinger attacked me for
two year because of this test case, but in such a strange way
that I finally asked him directly: what is your opinion? do you
support the PIE etymology? or do you have your own etymology?
I wrote him into a corner, and finally he had to admit his own
opinion: he is not convinced of the PIE etymology of bear
as the brown one but could imagine that English bear goes
back to a verbal root meaning fur ... Harlan Messinger is
an example of someone who absolutely wants to be on
the right side, and therefore always always always argues
on meta-levels, hiding his opinion. That is not the way of
discussing in a scientific forum. A honest participant in
a scientific discussion begins with a clear declaration of
his opinion. In sci.lang we are not in a poker club. Nor have
ad hominems place in a scientific discussion. The same
for mobbing and stalking. Experts on stalking say that one
should ignore a narcissistic stalker but fight hard and decidedly
an aggressive stalker. What is one supposed to do about both
narcissistic and aggressive stalkers? I ignore them (plural)
as long as I can, but then, from time to time, I give back.
This message is another meta-message, I write it only
because I am being forced into one more meta-discussion.
Seen over all, my linguistic messages and arguments far
far outweigh my meta-messages and -arguments.

If you are not happy with the contributions by someone else,
focus on the claim you find most silly.

I behave also along this rule. If I find that someone is wrong,
I focus on the salient point. Which may also concern the
behaving of a poster. If you find Magdalenian daft, go for one
of my test cases, or focus on the claim you find most silly.

Just complaining won't help, offer something better.

I do also that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Arnaud F.]

Le lundi 1 octobre 2012 09:24:03 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> Here again my rules for a scientific discussion from
>
> the late 1990s, adopted for sci.lang.
>

***

These "my rules" are just imperial decree by nobody,
so they stand rejected, not adopted.

A.
***

>
>
> Everybody who got something - hopefully interesting -
>
> to say about language is welcome.
>
>
>
> I got a lot to say about language, and so I have a place
>
> in sci.lang. I also welcome people who got to say things
>
> about language.

***

You seldom state anything on language(s),

But it was nice when you tried to explain to the Bouskatobolic highflying harebrain what linguistics is about.

A.
***

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 1, 3:24 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> Here again my rules for a scientific discussion from
> the late 1990s, adopted for sci.lang.
>
>   Everybody who got something - hopefully interesting -
>   to say about language is welcome.
>
> I got a lot to say about language, and so I have a place
> in sci.lang. I also welcome people who got to say things
> about language. While I do not welcome those who join
> sci.lang for playing online killer games.
>
>   Only scientific / linguistic arguments count.
>
> Meta-arguments and ad hominems do not count. Never
> ending meta- and meta-meta- and meta-meta-meta-
> discussions are the drag of the scientific groups on Usenet.
> You have to confess your own opinion, you can't hide forever
> behind meta-arguments. In August 2008 I formulated my
> first Magdalenian test case, bear as the furry one versus
> bear as the brown one. Harlan Messinger attacked me for
> two year because of this test case, but in such a strange way
> that I finally asked him directly: what is your opinion? do you
> support the PIE etymology? or do you have your own etymology?

again it is easy to show that *your* etymology is wrong, regardless of
what the PIE is. and people, including myself have answered that in
simple, rational, prosaic manner, but you ignore it.

that has been done over and over again. actually I think it is
difficult to find what is "most silly" since there is not a serious
bone at all in Magdalenian (not even fossil bones!)

>   Just complaining won't help, offer something better.
>
> I do also that.
>

you offer something worse! and lately you are not even offering that,
just complaining and complaining.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Note that he does not call it "experiment" any more, but "adventure",
which is infinitely more realistic. Maybe he'll call it "legend" or
"mythology" next time.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 1, 5:34 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

or "flews over the coockoo's nest"

[Arnaud F.]

Le lundi 1 octobre 2012 12:16:47 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :

>
> or "flews over the coockoo's nest"

Do you really mean "flews"?

A.

[pauljk]

"The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army" <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:5efcd91b-f02d-4c39...@g4g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

Forever getting asymptotically closer to "blunder".

pjk

[Arnaud F.]

***

Sometimes, curves actually cut the un-get-at-able "a-sym-ptote" and then come back unto it from beyond.
Magdalenian may be one case.

A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

flights. my English is not that great.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

my sentence was taken from the movie / novel "One Flew Over the
Coockoo's Nest" referring to a stay in an insane asylum.

[pauljk]

"Arnaud F." <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:d94f975e-7025-4c69...@googlegroups.com...
> Le lundi 1 octobre 2012 12:36:07 UTC+2, pauljk a �crit :

>> "The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army" <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote
>> in
>>
>> message news:5efcd91b-f02d-4c39...@g4g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Sep 29, 2:34 pm, Harlan Messinger <h.rem...@gavelcade.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> One might well wonder how Franz counts time. Year 7 should be year 7 and
>>
>> >> year 8 should be year 8, right? Yet he finished year 8 while something
>>
>> >> called year 7 continuation is still running. Perhaps, like Billy
>>
>> >> Pilgrim, he has come unstuck in time. That would explain his failure to
>>
>> >> understand causality and the temporal disconnectedness of events he
>>
>> >> imagines to be related.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Note that he does not call it "experiment" any more, but "adventure",
>>
>> > which is infinitely more realistic. Maybe he'll call it "legend" or
>>
>> > "mythology" next time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Forever getting asymptotically closer to "blunder".
>>

> ***
>
> Sometimes, curves actually cut the un-get-at-able "a-sym-ptote" and then come back
> unto it from beyond.
> Magdalenian may be one case.

That must be one of the many transmogrifications of the "morphospace oscillation".

pjk

[Arnaud F.]

***

Yes, I understood the allusion,

but I wondered if you meant that Franz' "flews over a Gaggithaler nest" only generate empty and insane droolings.

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Have you been thinking of that as a noun phrase all these years?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

no just today in the wee hours of the morning.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

exactly.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

now Franz will start complaining that we are filling "his" "publishing
thread".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-10-01 11:34:36 +0200, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz

"fantasy" would be best.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

And why not? Maybe with a bit of effort we can get it up to 1000 (which
seems to be some sort of limit for Google gropers) in record time.


--
athel

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 1, 10:24 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> Here again my rules for a scientific discussion from
> the late 1990s, adopted for sci.lang.

Who are you to set the rules for scientific discussion. Even in the
case that you were a serious scholar, you would not set the rules. You
would adhere to the same rules as everybody else. That would be
serious science and scholarship.

Besides, you don't even follow your own rules. People other than you
often do say worthwhile things about language and languages here, but
you reject it as "chit-chat".

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 1, 10:24 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> Seen over all, my linguistic messages and arguments far
> far outweigh my meta-messages and -arguments.

You have no first-hand information about any language to offer, so you
have no linguistic messages or arguments.

You are accusing everybody else of memorized textbook ideas. This
would be a valid accusation, if you had done fieldwork on some really
existing language and would give first-hand information about the
language. However, you have never studied either linguistics or
particular languages. You don't even speak Russian for Chrissake.

As regards meta-argumentation, you don't even understand what it is
used for. If your "linguistic messages and arguments" fail on the meta
level, i.e. it it is easily demonstrated that they are not based on a
scientific method, they do not need to be examined further, and you
cannot change the situation with your own meta arguments.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Already my new thread is being filled with meta-babbling,
and once again I am entangled in a fruitless meta-discussion.
I gave all the answer regarding my first Magdalenian test
case 'bear as the furry one versus bear as the brown one'
in a long thread from past spring and early summer, about
650 messages. If someone believes that I did not give
all the answers, he can start a new thread on the etymology
of bear, and I shall participate, as long as linguistic arguments
are being brought forth. Harlan Messinger anticipated my new
thread with a host of titles; avoiding his titles made me choose
the word adventure instead of experiment, but of course it still
is an experiment, a hypothesis, a theory. For those who can't
count (Harlan Messinger again):

year 1 early 2005 till early 2006
year 2 early 2006 till early 2007
year 3 early 2007 till early 2008
year 4 early 2008 till early 2009
year 5 early 2009 till early 2010
year 6 early 2010 till early 2011
year 7 early 2011 till early 2012
year 8 early 2012 till early 2013

the Magdalenian experiment or adventure began with my
reconstruction of a lunisolar calendar I first ascribed to the
Halaf culture, then to the aera and era of the Göbekli Tepe,
on the turn of year 2004/05, followed by my reconstruction
of an amazing lunisolar calendar from symbols and
ideograms in the Lascaux cave in early 2005. I looked out
for a matching language, found none in literature, but
remembered the approach of Richard Fester - Prof. Dr.
Richard Fester, if you please - and started from there.
Richard Fester proposed five ur-words, BA and KALL
and TAL and ACQ and TAG, each of many meanings,
and believed there were some twenty ur-words. I began
with AC for an expanse of land with water, inverse CA
for sky, the latter present in Old Latin caelum for sky.
Richard Fester considered also a couple of inverse forms
and permutations, and so did I, formulating my first two
laws of Magdalenian in 2005, two more laws in 2006:

1) inverse forms have related meanings
2) permutations yield words around the same meme
3) D-words have comparative forms in S-words
4) important words can have lateral associations

Using these four laws of Magdalenian, I mined over
four hundred words, mainly in 2006, most often groups
of six or a dozen words, in one case a large group of
seventy-two words. The beauty and power of Magdalenian
came with compounds. I look how far I can get with my
vocabulary from 2005 and mainly 2006. In August 2008

I formulated my first Magdalenian test case, bear as the

furry one versus bear as the borwn one. More test cases
followed. Soft test cases - I provide the arguments for
my Magdalenian etymology, others can provide arguments
for the PIE view, then we look who got the better arguments
and can explain more. I also proposed a hard test case.
Word memory, I claim, is linked to the phonetical system
in the brain, and this can one day be testd with neurological
equipment. Sir Karl Popper asked for test cases. I offer
several test cases. But he did not only ask for test cases,
also for daring hypotheses - the more audacious the better.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 2, 6:01 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> Already my new thread is being filled with meta-babbling,
> and once again I am entangled in a fruitless meta-discussion.

you are not involved in any "discussion. I have the feeling that
people are just venting their frustration over your repetative posts
that have even lost their comic value.

> I gave all the answer regarding my first Magdalenian test

no you didn't give any *rational* answer. when put in a corner you
went off on a tangent about "oscillations in the verbal morphospace"
that is all gibberish. yet a reason why that was unscientific was
offered and yet you ignored it.

> case 'bear as the furry one versus bear as the brown one'
> in a long thread from past spring and early summer, about
> 650 messages. If someone believes that I did not give
> all the answers, he can start a new thread on the etymology

that's just not going to happen. everyone is simply not interested in
discussing with you as you ignor all rational arguments and no one is
further interested of what the etymology of "bear" as their is already
a simple theory behind it with no reason to reject.

> of bear, and I shall participate, as long as linguistic arguments
> are being brought forth. Harlan Messinger anticipated my new
> thread with a host of titles; avoiding his titles made me choose
> the word adventure instead of experiment, but of course it still
> is an experiment, a hypothesis, a theory. For those who can't

it is not meerly a "hypothesis" for you as you reject all the feedback
that was given to you.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------
>
>

[Franz Gnaedinger]

If you believe to have a case against Magdalenian, focus
on it, get help from others, and open a thread on that issue,
on your point. I will join the discussion in that separate thread.
But be aware that Magdalenian is a novel approach to early
language, not yet another stretcher of the comparative
method, and far from trivial. You have to get acquainted
with new concepts or insights like the verbal morphospace
(a loan from evolutionary biology) and oscillation (equivalent
of stasis in evolutionary theory), you have to study the
physiology of speaking via self-observation and experiments.
Just quoting from textbooks and dictionaries won't do.
Parallels between language and life are of the essence
in my approach, also a good understanding of visual language.
If you find that visual language has nothing to do with language,
you may open a thread on that issue. Or if you find oscillation
a silly concept, open a thread on oscillation in language.
Focus on the claim you find most silly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-10-03 08:22:36 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:

> If you believe to have a case against Magdalenian,

If you believe you have a case for Magdalenian (and apparently you do)
then why not set it out in a coherent way and take seriously the
discussion points raised...

>
>> Already my new thread is being filled with meta-babbling,

… and stop endlessly reposting the garbage you have already posted.
Anyone who wants to read all the stuff I've deleted below will have
done so already.

[ Lots of repetitive rubbish discarded ]


--
athel

[Arnaud F.]

Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 10:22:36 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :

[...]

I've been reading a book and they say that there's no strategy in many Turkic languages to create adverbs, like with -ly in English.

What's your opinion on that?

A.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 3, 11:22 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> If you believe to have a case against Magdalenian, focus
> on it, get help from others, and open a thread on that issue,

That's not how it works. You are presenting a novel theory so the
burden of proof is on you. We don't need to discuss the case against
Magdalenian. We are perfectly entitled to go on believing in
mainstream science, because you haven't been able to present a
coherent case for Magdalenian.

You can call us textbook believers as much as you want, but the fact
is that you haven't even read enough mainstream textbooks to explain
what is wrong with them. In fact, one of your "arguments" against
mainstream linguistics has been the fact that you find their phonetic
notation unintelligible. Do you object to mainstream mathematics for
the same reason?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

here's from "The Turkic Languages and Peoples ..." 2nd ed. (1995) by
Karl Menges p. 115

<<

Whle the adverb is no morphologically distinguished category either
{as with adjectives} ancient petrified cases, mostly local ones and
those of nomina loci vel temporis, have become fixed in adverbial
position, and those they function as adverbial expressions or
adverbs ...

The Siberian Turkic languages employ quite commonly gerundia
(adverbial verbal nouns) in the function as adverbs ... In all Altajic
languages, petrified cases of nomina loci vel temporis furnish
adverbial expressions.

>>

I would also add the equative case(s) and the not so productive
instrumentative case in -n and the equative -c^a and -teg (the last
not found in Oghuz). In Turkish -c^a is very productive.

[Arnaud F.]

Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 19:11:42 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
> On Oct 3, 6:31 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 10:22:36 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
>
> >
>
> > [...]
>
> >
>
> > I've been reading a book and they say that there's no strategy in many Turkic languages to create adverbs, like with -ly in English.
>
> >
>
> > What's your opinion on that?
>
> >
>
> > A.
>
>
>
> here's from "The Turkic Languages and Peoples ..." 2nd ed. (1995) by
>
> Karl Menges p. 115
>
>
>
> <<
>
>
>
> Whle the adverb is no morphologically distinguished category either
>
> {as with adjectives} ancient petrified cases, mostly local ones and
>
> those of nomina loci vel temporis, have become fixed in adverbial
>
> position, and those they function as adverbial expressions or
>
> adverbs ...
>
>
>
> The Siberian Turkic languages employ quite commonly gerundia
>
> (adverbial verbal nouns) in the function as adverbs ... In all Altajic
>
> languages, petrified cases of nomina loci vel temporis furnish
>
> adverbial expressions.
>

***

interesting,
do you have examples of these petrified case-markers?

A.
***

[Yusuf B Gursey]

directional: -ra, -aru
instrumentative (archaic): -ti
comutative: -le also with insrumentative: -leyin (le-y-in)
instrumetative: -n
equative: -c^a (priductive), -teg

[Arnaud F.]

Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 20:07:24 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :

>
> directional: -ra, -aru
>
> instrumentative (archaic): -ti
>
> comutative: -le also with insrumentative: -leyin (le-y-in)
>
> instrumetative: -n
>
> equative: -c^a (priductive), -teg

***

What would a translation into English prepositions be for these formatives?

A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 3, 3:12 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 20:07:24 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
>
>
> >  directional: -ra, -aru
>

dI$ "outer", dI$arI "out" (both adverb and noun). son "end' sonra
"later"

> >  instrumentative (archaic): -ti
>
> >  comutative: -le also with insrumentative: -leyin (le-y-in)
>

o"g~le "noontime" (from Old Turkic o"g~ "time") o"g~leyin "in the
afternoon" ak$am "evening" ak$amleyin (this suffix usually does not go
through vowel harmony in Turkish) "in the evening"

> >  instrumetative: -n
>

should be "instrumentative"

yaya "pedestrian" yayan "on foot" yaz "summer" yazIn "in the
summertime"

> >  equative: -c^a (priductive), -teg

ayrI "seperate" ayrIca "seperately

>
> ***
>
> What would a translation into English prepositions be for these formatives?
>
> A.

we don't have names for them. examples are given above for Turkish.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 3, 4:22 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> If you believe to have a case against Magdalenian, focus
> on it, get help from others, and open a thread on that issue,
> on your point. I will join the discussion in that separate thread.
> But be aware that Magdalenian is a novel approach to early
> language, not yet another stretcher of the comparative
> method, and far from trivial. You have to get acquainted
> with new concepts or insights like the verbal morphospace
> (a loan from evolutionary biology) and oscillation (equivalent
> of stasis in evolutionary theory), you have to study the
> physiology of speaking via self-observation and experiments.
> Just quoting from textbooks and dictionaries won't do.
> Parallels between language and life are of the essence
> in my approach, also a good understanding of visual language.
> If you find that visual language has nothing to do with language,
> you may open a thread on that issue. Or if you find oscillation
> a silly concept, open a thread on oscillation in language.
> Focus on the claim you find most silly.

we did that once, we didn't get a rational argument. why should we
focus on claims that we find silly, we have better things to do.

Franz, you are now just plain boring.

>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 3, 7:09 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 3:12 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > Le mercredi 3 octobre 2012 20:07:24 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> > >  directional: -ra, -aru
>
> dI$ "outer", dI$arI "out" (both adverb and noun). son "end' sonra
> "later"
>
> > >  instrumentative (archaic): -ti
>
> > >  comutative: -le also with insrumentative: -leyin (le-y-in)
>
> o"g~le "noontime" (from Old Turkic o"g~ "time") o"g~leyin "in the
> afternoon" ak$am "evening" ak$amleyin (this suffix usually does not go
> through vowel harmony in Turkish) "in the evening"
>
> > >  instrumetative: -n
>
> should be "instrumentative"
>
> yaya "pedestrian" yayan "on foot" yaz "summer" yazIn "in the
> summertime"
>
> > >  equative: -c^a (priductive), -teg
>
> ayrI "seperate" ayrIca "seperately

ayrica also means "in additon to"

c = [*dj*] the suffix gets voiced intervocalicaly and after a voiced
consonant in Turkish

[Franz Gnaedinger]

The mob of sci.lang is trying to ruin my new thread.
They have no scientific arguments, they can't focus on
the claim of mine they find most silly, they must always
harass me and molest me. They can't discuss in their
own threads, they must always come here and drop
verdicts from above. By doing so, they confirm my
novel approach to early language.

stasis and oscillation

Darwin proposed a model of gradual evolution, ignoring
the example of crocodiles that remained for a very long
time (one hundred and fifty million years) basically
unchanged. Meanwhile we know that features of the eye
persisted in phyla that were separated five hundred
million years ago. Stephen Jay Gould: "stasis is data."
How can stasis be explained? I hoped to answer that
question via language, and found an answer via the
oscillation of words within what I call the verbal morpho-
space. Over the years I gave several examples of verbal
oscillations. Oscillation may also work in evolution.
Individuals of a 'race' vary more among each other
than the 'races' differ from each other, yet the distance
from one to another 'race' appears to persist, which
is suggesting an oscillation within a 'race', variations
around a norm. Years ago I proposed that the genome
- perhaps the large parts we arrogantly call junk DNA -
may contain sort of a computer that checks on mutations,
favoring good ones, eliminating bad ones, directing
evolution to some degree. This internal 'computer' may
also contain the norm around which the individuals vary
and oscillate. Recently a big discovery has been made:
eighty per cent of the DNA, including what was called
junk DNA, controls the genes that make up only sixteen
per cent of the genome. I see this as a confirmation
of my idea. If some genetical mechanism is responsible
for oscillation in evolution, what about oscillation in
language, long time oscillations within the verbal
morphospace? I still ponder that question.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Arnaud F.]

***

Turkic is strikingly different from Uralic,
whereas Uralic and Mongolian are fairly close and share quite a lot of morphology.
This is something I plan to investigate deeper.

A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

in what way?

[Arnaud F.]

***

A lot of lexical formatives and verbal suffixes are shared.

I think that a combination of Isolationism in Uralic studies, more or less rooted in the rejection of any "Asiatic" connections, and of wild comparatism in so-called "Altaic" studies has resulted in a complete disregard for a specific link between Mongolian and Uralic.
The similarities between say Mordvin and Mongolian Halh are just as strong as that between Latin, Greek and Sanskrit.

A.
***

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 4, 2:35 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> The mob of sci.lang is trying to ruin my new thread.

It is not "your" thread, and it is not "ruined" by discussions that
are, from time to time, moderately interesting.

If you want a thread where no one can post anything you don't approve
of, then put a blog with moderated comments on your web site.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 4, 7:21 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 2:35 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > The mob of sci.lang is trying to ruin my new thread.
>
> It is not "your" thread, and it is not "ruined" by discussions that
> are, from time to time, moderately interesting.
>
> If you want a thread where no one can post anything you don't approve

I think he wants *no one* to post on his "publishing thread"

> of, then put a blog with moderated comments on your web site.

or he could set up his own Google Group (which is not USENET but
archived by Google) where he will be the moderator.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

These suggestions have been put to him before, but for some reason
(probably he fears that no one would visit the sort of site that would
allow him what he wants, so he'd never reach the eager young linguists
who hang on his every word today) he refuses to do it.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-10-04 08:35:37 +0200, Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> said:

> The mob of sci.lang is trying to ruin my new thread.

Succeeding too, I suspect.

> They have no scientific arguments, they can't focus on
> the claim of mine they find most silly, they must always
> harass me and molest me. They can't discuss in their
> own threads, they must always come here and drop
> verdicts from above. By doing so, they confirm my
> novel approach to early language.

Strange logic there.

>
> stasis and oscillation
>
> Darwin proposed a model of gradual evolution, ignoring
> the example of crocodiles

You don't seriously imagine that Darwin was unaware of the
characteristics of crocodiles, do you? There is a lot more to the
modern view of evolution than morphology. Even species that have
changed very little in morphology show the expected rates of evolution
at the molecular level.

> that remained for a very long
> time (one hundred and fifty million years) basically
> unchanged.

Not true.

> Meanwhile we know that features of the eye
> persisted in phyla that were separated five hundred
> million years ago.

What do you mean by "features"? The ability to respond to light, OK,
but what else? The organization of an octopus eye, say, is
superficially sium to that of a vertebrate eye, but if you look at them
properly you can see fundamental differences.

[ Remaining repetitive garbage clipped ]

--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 4, 8:14 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

He already has a web site.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 4, 2:35 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

language is not transmitted genetically. the genetic mechanism what
you refered to is called atavism. some genes are merely dormant, but
sometimes get switched. if the switching on is favorable to survival
and reproduction, it may be passed on. it's quite rare, though it
occasionally happens. but language is not transmitted genetically.
once a meaning or pronounciation is lost, both in speech and in
writing, it is lost forever.

you on the other hand invoke the mysterious proccess of "oscillation"
to justify your claims once they hae been shown to be histoically
impossible.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

My threads are a well of inspiration. That is the
reason why so many people hang around here,
and don't open their own threads, for example
on Turkic. Textbook knowledge alone remains
non-functional, the linear reasoning of computer
programmers can't cope with the problems of
etymology, and mere stretchers of the comparative
method are not revolutionary. In my threads you
can find really new ideas and approaches.

belief and promise

Fifty years ago I was upset by what my schoolbook
told me about animals having no language. My
teachers who had studied languages and linguistics
couldn't help me. So I decided to answer the open
questions myself. What is language? In 1974/75
I found this answer:

Language is the means of getting help, support
and understanding from those we depend upon
in one way or another, and every means of getting
help, support and understanding may be called
language, on whatever level of life it occurs ...

Language, in my opinion, is a basic feature of life,
and may be regarded as the intelligence of life
- together we achieve more than all on our own.

In this thread I shall ponder the role of belief and
promise for society guided by collective intelligence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 5, 3:33 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> My threads are a well of inspiration. That is the

they are not.

> reason why so many people hang around here,
> and don't open their own threads, for example
> on Turkic. Textbook knowledge alone remains
> non-functional, the linear reasoning of computer

in other words you reject rational thought.

> programmers can't cope with the problems of
> etymology, and mere stretchers of the comparative
> method are not revolutionary. In my threads you
> can find really new ideas and approaches.

you don't

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 5, 11:29 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 5, 3:33 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > My threads are a well of inspiration. That is the
>
> they are not.

Don't be so discouraging, Yusuf. His threads are a well of inspiration
for the rest of us to ruin them with what he dismisses as chit-chat.

>
> > In my threads you
> > can find really new ideas and approaches.
>
> you don't

Again, Yusuf, don't be so negative. The linguistic chit-chat that
"ruins" his threads is often quite interesting.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 5, 5:28 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

yes!

[Franz Gnaedinger]

boring

Yusuf Gursey complains about my boring messages.
Why, then, does he hang about in my threads? Why
does he follow me around? Why can't he start a thread
on Turkic, for example? Being bored by me apparently
is much more interesting than quoting and compiling
from dictionaries.

Peter T. Daniels complains about my boring messages
indirectly.

Recently I heard an interesting radio program on boredom.
Children have a right of being bored. Parents should not plan
each and every minute of their children's life. Boredom is
a passage to something interesting in touch with oneself.
If a child tells you

I am bored

you should say

Congratulations! It will be interesting to know
what will occupy you twenty minutes from now ...

I fear it will take twenty years instead of twenty minutes
with the old boys in sci.lang. I labored almost eight years
boring them with Magdalenian, so I will have to go a good
twelve years more. While preparing a boring series of
boring messages on the boring topic of belief and promise,
I might bore you with my etymology of English to bore.

Magdalenian BIR means fur, accounting for Greek byrsa
'hide, fur, also leather'. Piercing leather, perforating the
tough material in order to saw leather, is a hard job even
with needles of metal, and was much harder with needles
split and carved from bones. English to bore in the sense
of drill, pierce and perforate, may then be a derivative of
BIR, and as piercing the seams of hides and pieces
of leather in a manufactory would have been a boring job,
BIR may also account for to bore in the sense of boredom.

Boreant in pacem - may the mob of sci.lang be bored
in peace.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 6, 10:39 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> boring
>
> Yusuf Gursey complains about my boring messages.
> Why, then, does he hang about in my threads? Why
> does he follow me around?

I see Franz is beginning to see Yusuf as one of my aliases, hurling
the exactly same accusations at him as he used to throw at me. I am
extremely flattered by the implied comparison, although I obviously
don't deserve the honour.

[Arnaud F.]

***

In Franz's unwahnsinniger Weltanschauung, everybody in sci.lang should abide by his laws but his own thread should only involve himself.
In addition anybody who talks to him is an enemy.

A.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 6, 6:36 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

the honour is mine, General.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

stalking in sci.lang, Panu Petteri Höglund and
Arnaud Fournet

If sci.lang can't be had without mobbing and stalking,
I make the mob and the stalkers document their ways.
They openly declared their will to ruin my thread. I see
this as capitulation. They have no scientific arguments.
Yusuf Gursey sent me an email, making his usual short
comments on oscillation. I asked him why he doesn't
open a thread on oscillation? He replied that it wouldn't
be worth a thread. Whereupon I called him a coward.
Cowards feel strong as members of a mob. Follows
my report on my second and third online stalkers.

Panu Petteri Höglund posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women, joined sci.lang in early 2006, attacked
me out of the blue, and became my second longtime
online stalker, using a long list of pseudonyms, many
of them created for the sole purpose of molesting me:
Panu Petteri Höglund alias John Bulkington alias
Patrick Karl alias craoibhin66 alias he himself as his
own good friend and pupil Sean Connor soconn1 alias
he himself as his own brother in arms and stalking aide
John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk alias he himself
as his own bride Annina Kaartinen alias a Rumanian
professor who claims to have discovered the origin of
language alias he himself as his own bride Maria Kupari
alias esperanto doctoro alias John Karl alias Scott Turner
(who claimed to be my first stalker posting from the
beyond) alias some metastases of the craoibhin alias,
Pantokrator 'ruler of everything', Zurga Elphastor, Callous
Killer, Der psychopathische Entdärmer 'the psychopathic
eviscerator', and some Irish names, most frequently
Fánaí Gaelach na nGleannta, furthermore Joe Jabrone,
and The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow
Army ('shadow army' being one of my terms for his
many aliases). Here is what he wrote as Panu in my
thread "Google company: sci.lang is flooded with porn
and other ads" on July 10, 2010, 7:39 and 7:44 a.m.:

I have lots of ideas what I could do if I had you
and a good long sharp knife. However, because
of unjust laws I can't put my ideas into practice.

And when I say "unjust laws" I mean the very
deplorable fact that legally, Franz is still a human
being with rights, and I can't slaughter him without
being condemned as a murderer. But I hate him
so much that I find it very difficult to see him
as a fellow human being.

Panu Petteri Höglund attended three universities,
but he has nothing to offer beyond a little textbook
matter. Once he started an Irish publishing thread,
in competition with me, telling people that we shall
see whose thread will gain more attention. We saw.
His thread died after a couple of weeks. Later on
he started another Irish thread that withered away
even faster. Having no scientific arguments, he can't
go for even one of my four Magdalenian test cases.
Nor can he leave me in peace. He must always
show up in my publishing thread, declaring me for
dead by speaking of memorial lessons. He can only
be someone and feel alive in the act of aggression.
Arnaud Fournet alias yangg posted ugly messages to
cybalist_admin, joined sci.lang blindly attacking people
with unprecedented outbursts of scatology, and began
stalking me, stepping in my way and smearing dirt
on my wall. I warned him. In vain. So I started a series
of Serri and Hurri messages, seventy-five in all, written
and delivered on a daily basis, brimful of ideas. Nothing
came from him. He can't inform us about the Hurrites.
He can't pick out a claim of mine he considers nonsense
and refute it with scientific arguments. All he can is talk
out of the wrong end of his digestion track. He is a
Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer as my first
longtime online stalker Marie Jean Faucounau alias
grapheus, believing that the Phaistos Disc was written
in Phaisto-Hurrian, Hurrian being close to Proto-Indo-
European that originated 7,000 years ago in southeast
Anatolia, but he can't tell us about the Phaistos Disc.
Instead he told me nonsense, that sound rules are
actual laws holding one hundred percent, or that
Mycenaean (Late Helladic) is older than Middle Helladic
(relevant for the Phaistos Disc). His online etymologies
are nonsense (I reviewed one of them). He bedazzled
Allan Bomhard, if only for a while. Here an excerpt
from an e-mail Allan Bomhard wrote to Brian Zeisberger:

From: Allan Bomhard
To: Brian Zeisberger
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European
I had hoped to stay out of the fray on this, but I see that it is
not

going to be possible. I will not enter into a long discussion
about
this matter but will make a simple statement and let it go at that.

The Hurrian project was challenging when I was working on it with
Arnaud, but, as time has passed and I have had a chance to think
more on these issues, I have changed my mind. I no longer support
any of the theories advanced or conclusions drawn in that work.

All my warnings failed. I told Arnaud Fournet that he harms
himself. In vain. But then he was excluded from the cybalist,
and documented the ensuing nervous breakdown in sci.lang.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 7, 4:11 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> stalking in sci.lang, Panu Petteri Höglund and
> Arnaud Fournet
>
> If sci.lang can't be had without mobbing and stalking,
> I make the mob and the stalkers document their ways.
> They openly declared their will to ruin my thread. I see
> this as capitulation. They have no scientific arguments.
> Yusuf Gursey sent me an email, making his usual short

I didn't send you an e-mail (as far as I know) about oscillation. if
an e-mail was sent it was unintentional (I might have meant to post it
or a copy was sent to you). I don't care about oscillation. I can't
make heads or tails about it and I don't care about thaty nosense,

> comments on oscillation. I asked him why he doesn't
> open a thread on oscillation? He replied that it wouldn't
> be worth a thread. Whereupon I called him a coward.

exactly, it is not worth a thread. but that has nothing to do with
cowardice. even if I wanted to discuss it I would post it on this
thread.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 7, 4:20 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 7, 4:11 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > stalking in sci.lang, Panu Petteri Höglund and
> > Arnaud Fournet
>
> > If sci.lang can't be had without mobbing and stalking,
> > I make the mob and the stalkers document their ways.
> > They openly declared their will to ruin my thread. I see
> > this as capitulation. They have no scientific arguments.
> > Yusuf Gursey sent me an email, making his usual short
>
> I didn't send you an e-mail (as far as I know) about oscillation. if
> an e-mail was sent it was unintentional (I might have meant to post it
> or a copy was sent to you). I don't care about oscillation. I can't
> make heads or tails about it and I don't care about thaty nosense,
>

OK. I posted a somewhat longer comment, but before that I must have
hit the wrong button and e-mailed you the comment "language is not
transmitted genetically".

[Arnaud F.]

Le dimanche 7 octobre 2012 10:11:15 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> stalking in sci.lang, Panu Petteri Höglund and
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
>
>
> If sci.lang can't be had without mobbing and stalking,
>
> I make the mob and the stalkers document their ways.
>
> They openly declared their will to ruin my thread. I see
>
> this as capitulation. They have no scientific arguments.

***

There's nothing to be discussed scientifically in "your" thread.

Your "Magdalenian" Möngispeak is just another peepeekakalooloo junk theory as existed before linguistics began to find its way in the 16th century.

A.
***

[outpour of repetitive crap deleted]

> Instead he told me nonsense, that sound rules are
>
> actual laws holding one hundred percent,

***

There's no other method possible.

A.
***

>
> Mycenaean (Late Helladic) is older than Middle Helladic
>
> (relevant for the Phaistos Disc). His online etymologies
>
> are nonsense (I reviewed one of them). He bedazzled
>
> Allan Bomhard, if only for a while.

***

I'm quite sorry that Allan does not want to cooperate more closely with me.
It means I'll have to refute his theory, instead of building one together.

A.
***

Here an excerpt
>
> from an e-mail Allan Bomhard wrote to Brian Zeisberger:
>
>
>
> From: Allan Bomhard
>
> To: Brian Zeisberger
>
> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:57 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European
>
> I had hoped to stay out of the fray on this, but I see that it is
>
> not
>
> going to be possible. I will not enter into a long discussion
>
> about
>
> this matter but will make a simple statement and let it go at that.
>
>
>
> The Hurrian project was challenging when I was working on it with
>
> Arnaud, but, as time has passed and I have had a chance to think
>
> more on these issues, I have changed my mind. I no longer support
>
> any of the theories advanced or conclusions drawn in that work.
>
>

***

You forgot to mention that Zeisberger was himself banned because he's a toxic troll.

A.
***

>
> All my warnings failed. I told Arnaud Fournet that he harms
>
> himself. In vain. But then he was excluded from the cybalist,
>
> and documented the ensuing nervous breakdown in sci.lang.

***

Anyway it's been quite a long time that Cybalist lost any glory or worthiness.

A.
***

>
>

[outpour of repetitive crap deleted]

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 1, introduction

Let me begin with my definition of language from
1974/75: Language is the means of getting help,

support and understanding from those we depend
upon in one way or another, and every means of
getting help, support and understanding may be
called language, on whatever level of life it occurs ...

Language, in my opinion, is a basic feature of life,

and may be considered the intelligence of life,
since working together, coordinated by language,
we achieve more than if we worked all on our own,
or we achieve the same with less energy.

Beliefs organize the collective intelligence and go
along with promise, both in religion and in science.
Upon reading Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene,
edition from 1989, I was intrigued by the similarities
of the genes as described by Dawkins and the
Greek gods. Which is more than an aperçu, deities
originally having been worshipped ancestors,
in the view of geneticists phenotypes of favorable
combinations of genes.

In my new series of messages I shall interpret Lascaux
and other caves in the light of belief and promise that
organized the collective intelligence of the Ice Age people
in the Guyenne (represented by a birdman, the birdman
in the pit of Lascaux being a river map of the Guyenne,
his eye the region of Bordeaux, his heavenly eye Deneb),
of the Lower Rhone Valley (represented by a bull, his
back the valley, his horns the peaks of the Cevennes
and the western Haute Provence, his heavenly eye Vega),
and of the Pyrenées and the Cordilleras in Northern
Spain (represented by the bird on a pole, his heavenly
eye Aquila). Then I shall go over to the Göbekli Tepe,
and finally speak of our time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 8, 3:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> belief and promise
> part 1, introduction
>
> Let me begin with my definition of language from
> 1974/75: Language is the means of getting help,
> support and understanding from those we depend
> upon in one way or another, and every means of
> getting help, support and understanding may be

so according to this you are not using language right now.

having recurring dreams?

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 8, 10:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> belief and promise
> part 1, introduction
>
> Let me begin with my definition of language from
> 1974/75:

Why are you suggesting a scientific discussion of your ideas, when it
is obvious that you use your own definitions for basic concepts,
instead of following common rules?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 8, 3:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> belief and promise
> part 1, introduction
>
> Let me

No.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 2, Lascaux as initiation cave
(a lesson in visual language, dedicated to our own
Peter T. Daniels, who kindly allowed me to go on)

Lascaux, never inhabited, served ritual purposes.
In my opinion, the cave was used for the initiation
of aspiring tribal leaders from near and far,
from the Guyenne, but also from the Lower Rhone
Valley and from Northern Spain.

The shape of the ancient entrance evokes the orbital
cavity of the left eye (picture taken from a tv documentary)

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhjr88.JPG

and revealed a composite animal with a bearded head,
a lance growing as horn from the front, with the mottled
hide of a feline, the strong hind body of a bull, and the
swollen belly of a pregnant mare

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6f.JPG

We can read the composite animal as a message to
an aspiring tribal leader: Make a wise use of your weapon,
be patient and then decided in your attack as a lion, be
strong as a bull, and care for your own as a mare for
her foal ... In Magdalenian

GER SAP )EI TAC MUC CRA AMA CED

What can be gained from obeying this advice?
A good tribal leader will be rewarded by becoming
part of the cosmic order. The composite animal,
embodying the virtues of a good tribal leader,
follows the red mare of the rsing midsummer sun
and the bull of the full moon by her side (their
coincidence marking the ideal start of an eight-
year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux,
more later), and before them a group of divine stags
that guarded the fiery exits from (and entrances to)
the Underworld traversed by the sun horse and
moon bull

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6e.JPG
http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6a.JPG

Next time: the sun horse(s) of Lascaux

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> eye Atair). Then I shall go over to the Göbekli Tepe,

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Franz, this is a discussion group. Publishing and re-publishing the
same stuff again and again is not discussion, and it can be illegal
spamming in some jurisdictions.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 9, 5:39 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

<craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Franz, this is a discussion group. Publishing and re-publishing the

"publishing"?

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On Oct 9, 4:51 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 5:39 am, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army
>
> <craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Franz, this is a discussion group. Publishing and re-publishing the
>
> "publishing"?

His terminology.

[António Marques]

The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army <craoi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

You've caught the franz!
--
Sent from one of my newsreaders

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 3, sun horse(s) of Lascaux

Marie E.P. König identified the horse of Lascaux
and other caves as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
the descending horses in the niche at the rear end
of the axial gallery, coming from the left side, as
winter sun horse turning around and giving way
to a pair of opposing ibices as midwinter symbol

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhjr89.JPG

Starting from there, I read the axial gallery with
the rotunda and the niche at the rear end as year,
as representation of one solar year; the niche
at the rear end as midwinter; the gallery on the
side of the lovely Chinese horses as spring;
the rotunda as midsummer; and the other side
of the gallery as autumn.

View of the rotunda, with the composite animal
and the red mare of early midsummer morning
and the white bull of the full moon by her side,
heading for the axial gallery, moving in clockwise
direction

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6a.JPG

Axial gallery, seen from the rotunda, looking
toward the niche at the rear end; on the right side,
in perspectivic distortion, the pair of Chinese horses,
also they moving in clockwise direction, as the sun
in the sky

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6b.JPG

The name of the winter sun horse would have been
CA LAB, sky CA cold LAB, wherefrom gallop and
German Klepper for an old and tired horse. The name
of the spring sun horse, the lovely pair of Chinese
horses, one male one female, would have been
CA BEL, sky CA warm BEL, in a longer version
CA BEL IAS, sky CA warm BEL healing IAS, naming
the warm sun of spring that heals ailments of a long
and harsh Ice Age winter, wherefrom Greek ABelios
AFelios Helios, the Greek sun god on his chariot
pulled across the sky by his quadriga of horses.
The name of the summer sun horse would have
been CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, wherefrom Spanish
caballo, Latin cavallus, French cheval. Hear the
sun horses of winter and spring and summer
run along their heavenly trajectories

CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...

CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...

CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...

Next time: moon bull of Lascaux

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I'm pretty sure it is Latin caballus

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

How does this cabal thing relate to the Finnish word "kavallus"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 10, 1:09 pm, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

<craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How does this cabal thing relate to the Finnish word "kavallus"?

Does /b/ usually get borrowed into Finnish as /v/, or as /p/?

How early on was it "cheval" in French?

[Arnaud F.]

***

As early as French is French, idiot.

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Oaths of Strasbourg, then?

Yo jackass, when were Finns in contact with Romance languages?

[Arnaud F.]

***

Thru Slavic, idiot.

A.

[Arnaud F.]

***

What do you imagine Slavic kobyla means, Yo fountain of walking mental disorders?

[Peter T. Daniels]

> What do you imagine Slavic kobyla means, Yo fountain of walking mental disorders?-

No idea.

Does "Slavic" /b/ come into Finnish as /v/ or as /p/?

Describe the chronology for "Slavic" to borrow it from some Romance
language, with /b/, and then pass it on to Finnish.

[Arnaud F.]

***

That word *kaballos (Gaulish), *kappallos (Irish), *kabuul (Slavic) is obviously a wanderwort, idiot.

I suppose that Proto-Balto-Finnic may have find it convenient to render Slavic *b with *w as there was no *b in that language, got it, jerk?

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 10, 6:37 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Le jeudi 11 octobre 2012 00:14:11 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Oct 10, 5:44 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> > > Le mercredi 10 octobre 2012 23:37:42 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > On Oct 10, 2:42 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > How does this cabal thing relate to the Finnish word "kavallus"?
>
> > > > > > Does /b/ usually get borrowed into Finnish as /v/, or as /p/?
> > > > > > How early on was it "cheval" in French?
>
> > > > > ***
>
> > > > > As early as French is French, idiot.
>
> > > > Oaths of Strasbourg, then?
> > > > Yo jackass, when were Finns in contact with Romance languages?
>
> > > ***
>
> > > What do you imagine Slavic kobyla means, Yo fountain of walking mental disorders?-
>
> > No idea.
>
> > Does "Slavic" /b/ come into Finnish as /v/ or as /p/?
>
> > Describe the chronology for "Slavic" to borrow it from some Romance
> > language, with /b/, and then pass it on to Finnish.
>
> ***
>
> That word *kaballos (Gaulish), *kappallos (Irish), *kabuul (Slavic) is obviously a wanderwort, idiot.

Ah, well. That explains everything! No doubt the sound changes were
"for euphony."

> I suppose that Proto-Balto-Finnic may have find it convenient to render Slavic *b with *w as there was no *b in that language, got it, jerk?

Yo idiot, why was it more "convenient" than *p?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 4, moon bull of Lascaux

Along the front of the proud white bull by the side
of the red mare in the rotunda of Lascaux appears
a sign of nine elements (three plus three plus three),
marking the bull of the full moon, heading in clockwise
direction as the moon in the sky

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6e.JPG

The three others bulls of the rotunda move in counter-
clockwise direction, facing the bull of the full moon.
The first one has a sign of three elements (two plus one)
on his breast or upper foreleg. The next one has a sign
of six elements (four plus two) on his back or flank.
And the last one has a sign of again six elements
(four plus two) above his neck. From the signs marking
the bulls I derived the following lunar periods named
for permutations of GEN. A quote from my Magdalenian
dictionary:

GEN NGE GNE EGN NEG ENG --- durations of six lunar
phases

http://www.seshat.ch/home/gen.GIF

GEN --- 3 days or nights of the young moon; ancient Greek
genae for birth (…) time (…), Latin genus for birth, origin,
gena for cheek (the arc of the new moon resembling the
one of a cheek), eye, eye socket (consider the lunar aspect
of the Egyptian Horus eye)

NGE --- 6 days or nights of the waxing moon; ancient Greek
nikae for victory, Latin Nicaeus for Jupiter granting victory,
consider Zeus as young, strong and victorious bull

GNE --- 9 days or nights of the full moon LUN; ancient Greek
ganao for I shine, am resplendent, make a magnificient show

EGN --- 6 days or nights of the waning moon; Latin egenus
for I am in need, poor (something missing)

NEG --- sickle of the old moon, 3 days or nights; ancient Greek
nekros for dead, nekroo for I kill, take away strength and life,
Latin negare for to say no, deny

ENG --- 2 or 3 days of the empty moon NUL

The most important words are GEN for the young moon
and NEG for the old moon. An alternative name of the
full moon was CA LUN, analogous to CA LAB of the winter
sun horse, CA BEL of the spring sun horse, and CA BAL
of the summer sun horse, CA LUN accounting for Greek
Selaenae, the moon goddess, and for Latin Luna, the
Roman moon goddess. The inverse of LUN is NUL,
accounting for English nul, German Null 'zero', and
Latin nihil 'nothing'. Until now I gave no meaning of LUN.
If NUL names an empty round form, LUN might name
a partly or entirely filled round form. CA LUN, sky CA
of the filled round form LUN. This compound might
account for *klounis 'hip, haunch, tigh', New Welsh clun
'haunch', Latin clunis 'buttocks, haunch (of an animal)',
Old Norse hlaun 'buttocks, loin.' French lune means
moon, but also bared behind (colloquial). English has
moonshining for baring the behind, showing the roundest
form of the body. Consider the bull of the young moon
GEN in the rotunda of Lascaux, his behind forms a lunar
curve.

Next time: lunisolar calendar of Lascaux

Correction: the composite animal that embodies and
symbolizes the virtues of a good tribal leader has a pair
of horns (not just one horn) in the form of lances growing
out of the front of the head of a bearded man, advising an
aspiring tribal leader to make a wise use of his weapons

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

What about the Finnish word "kavallus"? How does it enter the equation?

[Arnaud F.]

Le jeudi 11 octobre 2012 05:14:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Oct 10, 6:37 pm, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>


>
> > That word *kaballos (Gaulish), *kappallos (Irish), *kabuul (Slavic) is obviously a wanderwort, idiot.
>
>
>
> Ah, well. That explains everything! No doubt the sound changes were
>
> "for euphony."

***

There's no room for "sound changes", idiot,
as we don't know what kind of form is wandering.

A.
***

>
>
>
> > I suppose that Proto-Balto-Finnic may have find it convenient to render Slavic *b with *w as there was no *b in that language, got it, jerk?
>
>
>
> Yo idiot, why was it more "convenient" than *p?

***

Because *w/v is closer to b than to p or pp.

Why don't you try phonetics, flyfarts?

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

How?

> Why don't you try phonetics, flyfarts?

Indeed.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 11, 7:13 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 5:42 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > Le jeudi 11 octobre 2012 05:14:49 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > > I suppose that Proto-Balto-Finnic may have find it convenient to render Slavic *b with *w as there was no *b in that language, got it, jerk?
>
> > > Yo idiot, why was it more "convenient" than *p?
>
> > ***
>
> > Because *w/v is closer to b than to p or pp.
>
> How?

it is voiced, but then not a stop. I would say that making a fricative
out of intervocalic stop is more common than devoicing it.

[Arnaud F.]

***

yes, quite so,

In addition, there's a hierarchy of strength

strong++: pp
strong+: p
weak: b
weak-: v/w

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There are voiced allophones of /p/.

[Arnaud F.]

***

Hey clown


You wrote:

>
> My familiarity with the recent literature makes you wrong.
>
***


>
> Then it's time you look at the various surveys by e.g. John
>
> Huehnergard, who contributed the relevant chapters to such standard
>
> references as Woodard's *Cambridge Encyclopedia of the Languages of
>
> the Ancient World* (2004) [sic!!]
>
> ***
>
>
>
> Is it the same as "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages"?
>
***

You have not answered that question, Flyfarts.

Read again how "familiar" [sic] you are with the literature...

A.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>You have not answered that question, Flyfarts.

You misspelled that. It's Fflyffarts. Welsh. Try to remember it for
next time, kaye?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

What is money?
http://rudhar.com/economi/monydebt/en/016money.htm

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 12 octobre 2012 01:32:06 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT): "Arnaud F."
>
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
>
>
>
> >You have not answered that question, Flyfarts.
>
>
>
> You misspelled that. It's Fflyffarts. Welsh. Try to remember it for
>
> next time, kaye?
>

***

This is not the intended meaning.

A.

[pauljk]

"Arnaud F." <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:346e9c22-5bcb-4ce4...@googlegroups.com...
> Le vendredi 12 octobre 2012 01:32:06 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a �crit :

>> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT): "Arnaud F."
>>
>> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >You have not answered that question, Flyfarts.
>>
>>
>>
>> You misspelled that. It's Fflyffarts. Welsh. Try to remember it for
>>
>> next time, kaye?
>>
> ***
>
> This is not the intended meaning.
>
> A.

What about Flyff arts? :-)

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=flyff+arts&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wIp3UMf_OqmwiQehlIGYBQ&ved=0CB0QsAQ&biw=1214&bih=686

pjk

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 5, lunisolar calendar of Lascaux

The Stone Age way of counting lunations or synodic
months (29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 2.9 seconds,
modern average) was to lay out syncopic lines of
30 29 30 ... or 29 30 29 ... pebbles, the first mode
yielding better results. An ideogram at the rear end
of the axial gallery can be read as a sequence of
eleven lunations, in clockwise direction, yielding
either 325 or 324 days:

30 29 30 29 30 29
-- 30 29 30 29 30

29 30 29 30 29 30
-- 29 30 29 30 29

The grid 3 by 3, found in complete and partial form,
can be read as a lunisolar calendar of nine periods:

h i b midsummer at end of period i
g a c midsummer at begin of period a
f e d midwinter in middle of period e

41 40 41
40 41 40
41 40 41

a Jun21 - Jul 31 midsummer at begin
b Aug 1 - Sep 10
c Sep 11 - Oct 20
d Oct 21 - Nov 30
e Dec 1 - Jan 9 midwinter in the middle
f Jan 10 - Feb 19
g Feb 20 - Mar 31
h Apr 1 - May 11
i May 12 - Jun 20 midsummer at end

A calendar cycle of eight years corresponds to
nine cycles of eleven lunations:

a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days
a b c d e f g h i -- 365 days ---- 2920 days

a b c d e f g h -- 325 days
i a b c d e f g -- 324 days
h i a b c d e f -- 325 days
g h i a b c d e -- 324 days
f g h i a b c d -- 325 days
e f g h i a b c -- 324 days
d e f g h i a b -- 325 days
c d e f g h i a -- 324 days
b c d e f g h i -- 324 days ---- 2920 days

Add 2 leap days, and readjust the sun (horse)
and moon (bull). The ideal start of a long cycle
of eight solar years or ninety-nine lunations
begins with a full moon in midsummer, but
then, slowly, the solar and lunar cycles will shift.
The ideal situation is given by the red mare in
the rotunda, sun horse of early midsummer
morning, and the bull of the full moon by her
side, but the bull is a little ahead of the horse,
indicating the slow shift over the years.

You can lay out a calendar period of 40 days
as syncopic square of 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 pebbles;
a period of 41 days as syncopic square of
5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 pebbles (regular square 4 by 4
inserted into the spaces of the regular square
5 by 5); and the regular year of 365 days as
syncopic square of 14 13 14 13 14 13 14 13
14 13 14 13 14 13 14 13 14 13 14 13 14 13 14
13 14 13 14 pebbles (regular square 13 by 13
inserted into the spaces of the regular square
14 by 14).

http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.GIF

Next time: Divine Stag, and an alternative solar
calendar of Lascaux

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 12 octobre 2012 05:18:15 UTC+2, pauljk a écrit :
> "Arnaud F." <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
>

>

> What about Flyff arts? :-)
>
>
>
> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=flyff+arts&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wIp3UMf_OqmwiQehlIGYBQ&ved=0CB0QsAQ&biw=1214&bih=686
>

***

Better applies to somebody else:

Here's Franz as Magdalenian Schwyzo:

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?hl=en&biw=1600&bih=760&tbm=isch&tbnid=9QIv0xa5Nj37VM:&imgrefurl=http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2205719&docid=frQpkM3qAk6ZgM&imgurl=http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/armiesofWAR/chaos/ChosenImg_03.jpg&w=900&h=1112&ei=AvN3UNb2HYrM0QWVnYHYBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=889&vpy=329&dur=2461&hovh=250&hovw=202&tx=123&ty=132&sig=104796339426960916391&page=3&tbnh=137&tbnw=125&start=63&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:46,s:20,i:266

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 11, 7:32 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:

Hey, nice to see you again!

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 12 octobre 2012 14:19:10 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Oct 11, 7:32 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey, nice to see you again!

***

Beware of clowns!

A.
***

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 6, Divine Stag, and an alternative
or complementary calendar of Lascaux

The Divine Stag CER KOS, stag CER heavenly vault
KOS, guarded the fiery eastern exits from and western
entrances to the Underworld, traversed by the sun horse
and moon bull. The proud antlers of the Divine Stag
were seen in the summer constellations we know as
Sagittarius and Scorpio. His tree was the oak, CER KOS
Latin quercus 'oak' Gaulish érkos 'oak forest'. A group
of stags can be seen in the rotunda, before the red mare
of the early midsummer morning and the white bull of
the full moon by her side. If you proceed from the rotunda
to the first room of the axial gallery, you can see a giant
stag megaceros on the southern wall, facing a pony
lower than him; behind the pony, in some distance,
follow the red and the yellow Chinese horses.
Under the head and neck of the megaceros appears
an ideogram that encodes one year in the alternative
or complementary calendar of Lascaux, a standing
rectangle, on the right side of its base a line of thirteen
dots, on the left side one single big dot - a regular
year of 365 days, consisting of 13 months of 28 days,
plus one more day, the day of midwinter. The format
of the standing rectangle is about 7 to 4. Multiply 7 by 4
and you obtain 28. Under the pony is a curved ascending
line of 28 dots, hence the pony stands for one month
in the alternative or complementary calendar. A sign
of five elements under its breast indicates month
number 5. While the lunisolar calendar starts with
midsummer, then alternative calendar ends on the
day of midwinter:

month 1 Dec 22 - Jan 18 following midwinter
month 2 Jan 19 - Feb 15
month 3 Feb 16 - Mar 15
month 4 Mar 16 - Apr 12
month 5 Apr 13 - Mar 10 pony before megaceros
month 6 May 11 - Jun 7
month 7 Jun 8 - Jul 5 midsummer in the middle
month 8 Jul 6 - Aug 2
month 9 Aug 3 - Aug 30
month 10 Aug 31 - Sep 27
month 11 Sep 28 - Oct 25
month 12 Oct 26 - Nov 22
month 13 Nov 23 - Dec 20
day of midwinter Dec 21

The red Chinese horse behind the pony has again
a sign of five marks, before the head - and behind
the head an incomplete grid 3 by 3, only the three
top squares given, the first of them (upper left corner)
being period h in the lunisolar calendar. Each sign
indicates the spring sun horse:

month 5 Apr 12 - May 9
period h Apr 1 - May 11

The aspect of spring is confirmed by the two twigs
adorning the red Chinese horse.

Also the alternative or complementary calendar
has a lunar aspect: one regular year of 365 days
plus 7 months of 28 days equals 19 lunations
counted in the 30 29 30 ... mode:

28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 1
28 28 28 28 28 28 28 sum 561

30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30
29 30 29 30 29 30 sum 561

The alternative or complementary calendar can
be located as follows:

months 1 - 6 southern wall of axial gallery
month 7 rotunda, midsummer
months 8 - 13 northern wall of axial gallery
day of midwinter niche at rear end of gallery

The meeting of solar and lunar calendar - one year
seven months and nineteen lunations - is then marked
by the hole above the entrance to the axial gallery,
above the back of the bull of the young moon, between
the horns of the bulls of the waxing and waning moon.

The calendar notations are amazingly modern once
we find the guiding ideas.

Next time: Divine Hind or Hind Woman

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 7, Divine Hind or Hind Woman

The Divine Hind or Hind woman CER -: I -: called life
into existence, animals, also plants, and provided
a second life in the beyond for worthy souls. Pronounce
the consonant given as -: by touching both lips with
the tip of the tongue. Her heavenly emanation was the
winter constellation we know as Orion, from ORE EON,
she on the beautiful ORE shore EON of the CA LAK
Galaxy Milky Way, the heavenly CA lake or stream LAK.
She also called moon bulls into life, thus creating time,
lunar periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ...
days. The moon bulls waiting to go on their heavenly
mission were present in Aldebaran, the Hyads, the
constellation we know as Taurus, from TOR meaning
bull in motion.

Altamira in northern Spain was the main sanctuary of
the Divine Hind. The cave is famous for the powerful
bulls that inspired Picasso, many of them in rounded,
compact form. However, by far the largest painted
animal is a beautiful hind, three meters long, licking
the horns of a small bison under her

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG

The head of another hind is drawn on a ledge, in such
a way that her tongue is given by a vertical fissure in
the rock

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind2.JPG

Animals in European cave art and in the rock art of
southern Africa are often shown as if emerging from
or disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock,
anticipating Vladimir Vernadzky's famous dictum
of life being the metamorphosis of rock.

Back to Lascaux and the niche at the rear end of the
axial gallery

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhjr89.JPG

The horses come down and give way to a pair of
opposing ibices (Latin plural) or ibexes (English plural),
symbol of midwinter according to Marie E.P. König.
These animals mate in winter, the males fighting for
the females. Between them appears an incomplete
calendar grid 3 by 3, only the bottom squares given,
midwinter occurring in the middle of the central square
or period of time. The curved lines of the horns and
heads form an hourglass and evoke Orion, constellation
of the Divine Hind Woman, invisibly present between
her emblematic animals, while Taurus may be indicated
by the lunar calendar ideogram next to the long cow
- mother of the young moon bull in the rotunda, linked
to him by the sign of three elements (GEN for the 3 days
of the young moon bull). Under the long cow appear
the pretty ponies - the young sun horse of a new year
following midwinter. Both the long cow and the frieze
of ponies indicate the band of the ecliptic.

CER -: I -: has a derivative in cow-eyed Hera, another
in northwest Proto-Indo-European *kerdeh- 'herd, series'.
-: I -: has many derivatives, among them the loba call
of Celtic herdsmen to their cattle, surviving in the locally
famous lyoba call of herdsmen in the Swiss Canton of
Fribourg. Further derivatives are German Leben English
life, German Liebe English love, Latin libido 'desire',
words for lip (licking the lips would once have been
a way of declaring love and desire, and still can signal
appetite and lust), Ugaritic dd 'beloved' and Phoenician
Dido 'Loved One', Ukrainian lyalka 'doll', the female
given name Lily and the flower lily, German Laub 'foliage'
and Laube 'arbor' wherefrom English lobby. Some of
the bulls of Altamira have regular tails in the form of
'paintbrushes', others have tails in the form of fir twiglets.
The goddess would have been worshipped in arbors
built in her honor.

Next time: polarity

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jim Heckman]

On 10-Oct-2012, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net>
wrote in message
<94fdfa23-19b5-4c15...@x14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>:

While waiting for Panu to get back to us, I see that the
contributors to this subthread appear to be assuming that Finnish
"kavallus" has something to do with the Romance words for 'horse'.
It doesn't, of course, which is Panu's whole point.

"Kavallus" means 'embezzlement', and is transparently derived from
the root "kavala" 'deceitful, traitorous' plus a transitive-verb
suffix -ta/tä- -> kavalta- 'betray; (money) embezzle', plus an
abstract-noun suffix -us/ys. (The change -lt- -> -ll- before a
closed syllable with a short vowel is part of a regular
morphophonemic process.)

I don't have a Finnish etymological dictionary on hand and have no
idea where "kavala" comes from. It doesn't look particularly
Finnish, having 3 syllables, unless maybe it's from something like
*kava (meaning?) plus the location suffix -la/lä (e.g., sairas
(stem sairaa-) 'sick, ill' -> sairaala 'hospital'), but that
doesn't seem likely.

Interestingly, there's also an abstract noun "kavaluus" 'deceit,
treachery' formed directly from "kavala". "Kavallus" vs. "kavaluus"
is a nice example of the pervasiveness of both vowel and consonant
gemination throughout the language.

--
Jim Heckman

[Franz Gnaedinger]

belief and promise
part 8, polarity

Sun horse and moon bull originate in the niche at the
rear end of the axial gallery in the Lascaux cave - winter -,
run along the southern wall of the gallery - spring - toward
the rotunda - summer - and return along the northern wall
of the gallery - autumn - toward the niche, where the sun
horse descends and gives way to the pair of opposing
ibices, midwinter symbol according to Marie E.P König.
A little father in the narrowing gallery is the horse turned
upside down, indicating the death of the sun horse in
midwinter, whereupon the sun horse of the next year
will be born and go on its heavenly mission in the frieze
of ponies, while the long cow above the ponies gave birth
to the bull of the young moon (sign of three elements
marking both the cow and the young bull in the rotunda).
The glorious rotunda stands for summer, midsummer,
life. Another passageway leads from the rotunda to
the nave and the chamber of felines that shows seven
or eight cave lions and may again involve the polarity
of life and death. If you turn from the passageway to
the right side you arrive in the apse and reach the pit
with a famous scene, the birdman and wounded bull
and bird on a pole, under them a wooly rhinoceros

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6d.GIF

Marie E.P König sees the rhinoceros as the goddess
of life - of giving life and taking life, and here she has
taken the life of the birdman and the bull and the bird
on the pole. Michael Rappenglück identified the
birdman with the constellation of Cygnus, the bull
with Lyra, and the bird on the pole with Atair. I see
the birdman as river map of the Guyenne, his eye
the region of Bordeaux

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6i.GIF

personifying the tribal leaders of the Guyenne, and his
heavenlys eye as Deneb in Cygnus, the bull as the tribal
leaders of the Lower Rhone Valley, his heavenly eye as
Vega in Lyra, and the bird on a pole as tribal leaders of
northern Spain, his heavenly eye as Atair in Aquila. Have
a closer look at the rhinocers in the pit of Lascaux: behind
her appear six dots, three behind her vagina, and three
behind her anus. The three dots behind her vagina
promise a new life in the sky for good tribal leaders,
while bad ones will be dropped - a big promise and
a drastic warning for the aspiring tribal leaders visiting
the Lascaux cave and having made the whole tour,
from the rotunda to the end of the axial gallery and back
to the rotunda, then to the passageway and nave and
chamber of the felines, then to the apse and pit.

Next time: claiming a second life in the beyond

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Oct 15, 1:05 pm, "Jim Heckman" <rot13(reply-to)@none.invalid>
wrote:

>
> While waiting for Panu to get back to us, I see that the
> contributors to this subthread appear to be assuming that Finnish
> "kavallus" has something to do with the Romance words for 'horse'.
> It doesn't, of course, which is Panu's whole point.
>
> "Kavallus" means 'embezzlement', and is transparently derived from
> the root "kavala" 'deceitful, traitorous' plus a transitive-verb
> suffix -ta/tä- -> kavalta- 'betray; (money) embezzle', plus an
> abstract-noun suffix -us/ys.  (The change -lt- -> -ll- before a
> closed syllable with a short vowel is part of a regular
> morphophonemic process.)
>
> I don't have a Finnish etymological dictionary on hand and have no
> idea where "kavala" comes from.  It doesn't look particularly
> Finnish, having 3 syllables, unless maybe it's from something like
> *kava (meaning?) plus the location suffix -la/lä (e.g., sairas
> (stem sairaa-) 'sick, ill' -> sairaala 'hospital'), but that
> doesn't seem likely.
>
> Interestingly, there's also an abstract noun "kavaluus" 'deceit,
> treachery' formed directly from "kavala".  "Kavallus" vs. "kavaluus"
> is a nice example of the pervasiveness of both vowel and consonant
> gemination throughout the language.

My etymology of cavallus 'horse' is CA BAL for the summer
sun horse, sky CA hot BAL, accounting for Latin caballus
Spanich caballo French cheval, also for cavalier, a polite
and brave guy standing up for his lady, no longer a horse,
but deriving from a knight, a rider and archer of former
times. Horse thieves are also part of the history around
horses, and so CA BAL could have accounted for kavala
'betray' - horse trading was full of deceit.

I'd appreciate if you would take your discussions elsewhere.
In this thread I publish and further develop my ideas, just
having finished my interpretation of Lascaux in eight concise
messages, now going over to Chauvet and other caves.

[Arnaud F.]

Le mardi 16 octobre 2012 09:00:55 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :

[gaggithaler crap deleted]

>
> I'd appreciate if you would take your discussions elsewhere.

***

Fuck you, idiot.

A.
***

>
> In this thread I publish and further develop my ideas, just
>
> having finished my interpretation of Lascaux in eight concise
>
> messages, now going over to Chauvet and other caves.

***

Concise !?

A.