Palestine during/around Jesus' time
Stem sells
least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
Aramaic.
When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
Also, how did Christianity survive early on? To whom did this early
counter-culture religion appeal to? I would think idealistic
youngsters, left-leaners, and possibly people against the Roman
occupation.
Were the people of that region occupied by the Romans, or were did
they regard themselves as Romans? I'm under the impression that
although their lands were part of the Roman empire, that the Hebrews
did *NOT* regard themselves as Romans or Roman citizens.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>
> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac?
Different names for the same dialect continuum.
> What modern day
> languages are most similar to each?
1) Athuriya. 2) Talmudic Aramaic which is frozen in time due to being
liturgical.
> I realize that Jesus spoke Aramaic.
>
> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
After it was populated by Jews resettled from Babylon, perhaps.
> Also, how did Christianity survive early on? To whom did this early
> counter-culture religion appeal to?
Look up the Theodoseki, for a start.
Peter T. Daniels
> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>
> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> Aramaic.
Aramaic is a very diversified group of languages. One contemporary
scholar says there's more diversity just within North East Neo-Aramaic
than in the entire continuum of Arabic dialects.
Jesus spoke Palestinian Aramaic, a West Aramaic language. Syriac is an
East Aramaic language, first attested in inscriptions dated during
Jesus's lifetime. (When the Mel Gibson movie had people speaking
Syriac, it chose the wrong variety of Aramaic, but the one that is
best attested. It would not have been possible to translate the script
into Jewish Palestinian Aramaic of the 1st c. CE.)
West Aramaic survives in just three villages in Syria, on the east
side of Mt..Lebanon. All the other varieties of Aramaic spoken today
(including the Classical Syriac used as a lingua franca in monasteries
in eastern Turkey) are forms of East Aramaic.
> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
Some have argued that Hebrew continued to be spoken into the 1st-2nd
c. CE, so that the Mishnah was written in a still-living language.
(Below isn't relevant to sci.lang.)
Matt Giwer
> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
From what language? There is no evidence of Hebrew prior to the appearance of
the Greek Septuagint. The inscriptions found are Phoenician so you might mean
from Phoenician.
> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> Aramaic.
>
> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
of any, please present it. And if you are going to say "proto-Hebrew" then be
certain to show from the words and letters themselves, not from where it is
found, that in fact it is a different language from Phoenician.
> Also, how did Christianity survive early on? To whom did this early
> counter-culture religion appeal to? I would think idealistic
> youngsters, left-leaners, and possibly people against the Roman
> occupation.
> Were the people of that region occupied by the Romans, or were did
> they regard themselves as Romans? I'm under the impression that
> although their lands were part of the Roman empire, that the Hebrews
> did *NOT* regard themselves as Romans or Roman citizens.
A Roman was a citizen of Rome. It was an official, legal status.
--
In time of war both sides claim to be defending themselves to the public but
in retrospect we know both governments wanted the war but the people did
not.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4843
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
commentary http://www.giwersworld.org/opinion/running.phtml a5
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Stem sells wrote:
> > Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> > least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>
> From what language? There is no evidence of Hebrew prior to the appearance of
> the Greek Septuagint. The inscriptions found are Phoenician so you might mean
> from Phoenician.
My, my, my. the antisemitic retard shows up again.
He can't even distinguish a Hebrew inscription from a Phoenician one!
He's probably never even heard of matres lectionis.
> > What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> > languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> > Aramaic.
>
> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>
> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> of any, please present it. And if you are going to say "proto-Hebrew" then be
> certain to show from the words and letters themselves, not from where it is
> found, that in fact it is a different language from Phoenician.
Look at any grammar of the inscriptions, retard.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>
> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> of any, please present it.
In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
paleoHebrew script used for?
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> Jesus spoke Palestinian Aramaic, a West Aramaic language. Syriac is an
> East Aramaic language, first attested in inscriptions dated during
> Jesus's lifetime.
At one time, Christians had a convention of referring to their
dialects as Syriac and non-Christians' dialects as Aramaic. So, there
are the terms West Syriac (Edessa/ Lebanon) and East Syriac (Assyria/
Chaldea).
Herman Rubin
Stem sells <gestureo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>Aramaic.
>When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
Hebrew was the language commonly spoken only before
the Captivity. Upon the return, the Aramaic learned
in Babylonia, which was the commercial language of
most of the Assyrian Empire even before, supplanted
it for common use. Hebrew remained as the language
of the religious texts.
>Also, how did Christianity survive early on? To whom did this early
>counter-culture religion appeal to? I would think idealistic
>youngsters, left-leaners, and possibly people against the Roman
>occupation.
This may be disputed, but Paul modified the early versions
to appeal to the pagan Hellenists. This area had been under
Roman occupation for a long time, and there was no rising
against the Roman occupation, as the Jews did later in the
century.
>Were the people of that region occupied by the Romans, or were did
>they regard themselves as Romans? I'm under the impression that
>although their lands were part of the Roman empire, that the Hebrews
>did *NOT* regard themselves as Romans or Roman citizens.
Most did not consider themselves Romans, although some
did have the rights of Roman citizens. The Roman Empire,
as distinct from the formally Roman Republic, was still
in its infancy.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Herman Rubin
Not just the Tetragrammaton, but most books of the Hebrew
Bible are found in both scripts.
Yusuf B Gursey
both forms of Syriac belong to the eastern aramaic branch.
Peter T. Daniels
The most salient differences between them is that in West Syriac, a: >
o: (an areal feature found in Phoenician, Hebrew to some extent, and
Modern Arabic) and Western mss. use miniature Greek vowels for
vocalization, while Eastern ones use the earlier pattern of dots in
various configurations.
Peter T. Daniels
> In article <1187977427.898457.223...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >> of any, please present it.
> >In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> >being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> >written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> >paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> Not just the Tetragrammaton, but most books of the Hebrew
> Bible are found in both scripts.
More tommyrot. Where are you GETTING this stuff??
The only Paleo-Hebrew among the DSS, aside from the Tetragrammaton in
some mss., is fragments of a Leviticus scroll.
Yusuf B Gursey
examples in modern arabic?
Agamemnon
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>
>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
>> there any
>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
>> know
>> of any, please present it.
>
> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
Phoenician Sea God. Elyon was also a Phoenician God as was El. In fact all
of the seven Gods mentioned in the bible that the so-called Hebrews
worshiped were Phoenicians Gods. So what can we conclude from that? That the
people depicted were in fact Phoenicians, plain and simple with no room for
further debate since all those who worshiped the Greek Gods by their Greek
names where considered Greek, those that worshiped the Roman Gods by their
Roman names were considered Romans and those that worshiped the Babylonians
Gods by their Babylonian names were considered Babylonians and so on. And
why was that. Its because the Gods were their biological ancestors who ruled
over them as kings in the past, and that is what all the founding fathers of
the Christians Church said.
> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> paleoHebrew script used for?
Phoenician. Why were so-called Hebrews worshiping Phoenicians Gods if they
were not Phoenicians themselves? The term Hebrew itself is the name of a
tribe of horse riding bandits who were exterminated by Mernepah. The people
who lived in Judea in Roman times called themselves Judeans after Judas
Maccabbee.
Agamemnon
"Stem sells" <gestureo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187846725.0...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>
> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> Aramaic.
Jesus actually spoke Greek which he learned while in Egypt. That's why he
was able to communicated with Roman soldiers and why his disciples were able
to spread the gospel to foreigners, since Greek was the lingua franca in the
eastern part of the Roman Empire.
>
> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>
> Also, how did Christianity survive early on? To whom did this early
> counter-culture religion appeal to? I would think idealistic
> youngsters, left-leaners, and possibly people against the Roman
> occupation.
Jesus was another defied ancestor to add to the thousands of other defied
ancestors who the people of the Roman Empire already worshiped. His cult was
a rip-off of the Tammuz/Adonis/Adonai death and resurrection cult so it was
already part of the Jewish religion since the Jews in Jesus time were
polytheists as can be seen by the abundance of idols and temples to all the
Phoenician Gods in Jerusalem.
>
> Were the people of that region occupied by the Romans, or were did
> they regard themselves as Romans? I'm under the impression that
> although their lands were part of the Roman empire, that the Hebrews
> did *NOT* regard themselves as Romans or Roman citizens.
The only Romans were the citizens of Rome.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>
> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
> Phoenician Sea God. Elyon was also a Phoenician God as was El. In fact all
> of the seven Gods mentioned in the bible that the so-called Hebrews
> worshiped were Phoenicians Gods.
Where can we find a Phonecian writing in the so-called paleoHebrew
script, which writing mentions Jehovah?
Peter T. Daniels
No, just something I learned in Semitic linguistics class 30-odd years
ago, or maybe from Lynn Killean -- remember, she's the prof who got
asked to leave Syria after Assad found out she was researching Syrian
rather than Classical Arabic.
I could try looking in Fischer/Jastrow or Mitchell, Pronouncing Arabic
2, but that would be uninteresting..
Peter T. Daniels
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
> >> there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
> >> know
> >> of any, please present it.
>
> > In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>
> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
Wow, Aggie hasn't been here in years!
No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
(they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
and easily identifiable.
"Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
of use in the 6th c. BCE.
> > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> Phoenician.
Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
that one known DSS of Leviticus.
The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
script) for the other.
Yusuf B Gursey
AFAIK it is at least rare.
Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 12:16 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> Stem sells wrote:
>>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>> From what language? There is no evidence of Hebrew prior to the appearance of
>> the Greek Septuagint. The inscriptions found are Phoenician so you might mean
>> from Phoenician.
>
> My, my, my. the antisemitic retard shows up again.
Yes you are an ignorant twit who has never produced any physical evidence to
support your religious belief in the bible.
> He can't even distinguish a Hebrew inscription from a Phoenician one!
Perhaps you will present one of each and show the intrinsic difference. You
said INSCRIPTIONS so I expect inscriptions. If you know there is a difference
you certainly know of a few good examples.
I do give you credit for having claimed the alphabets were different. That lead
me to look at "both" and to find one letter was slightly different. You did
provide a method to show there was no difference between them.
> He's probably never even heard of matres lectionis.
How does that constitute physical evidence Hebrew was once an everyday language
spoken by a local population?
>>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>>> Aramaic.
>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
>> of any, please present it. And if you are going to say "proto-Hebrew" then be
>> certain to show from the words and letters themselves, not from where it is
>> found, that in fact it is a different language from Phoenician.
> Look at any grammar of the inscriptions, retard.
Which is what I did last time you made the suggestion and confirmed the
inscriptions found were indistinguishable from Phoenician. Perhaps you can do
better this time?
--
A mining town of 1000 people has all the families interelated. 100 of them
die in a mine accident. Each of the 900 survivors has lost 100 relatives for
a grand total of 90,000 dead relatives. I give you the holocaust.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3850
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7
Matt Giwer
All the DSS are dated after the Septuagint first appear in history. If all you
mean in YHWH, both Yahweh and his consort Astarte were born of El as described
in tablets found at Ugarit dating to 1000BC.
If you look into "paleo" Hebrew you can learn how it is identified. They use
the circular method. If it was found in a place where the OT says the Judeans
ruled it is given that name. Without the bible it would not be considered
different.
--
As of July 2007, the Iraq war is costing the same as three nuclear aircraft
carriers every month. Never again question the cost of a carrier.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3841
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Zionism http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/disinfo.phtml a4
Matt Giwer
> In article <1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
>>> of any, please present it.
>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> Not just the Tetragrammaton, but most books of the Hebrew
> Bible are found in both scripts.
But all appear AFTER the Septuagint first appears in history in the late 3rd c.
BC.
Were there not a popular religion attached the Septuagint would be considered
the creation of the religion similar to the Book of Mormon, Dianetics and the
Koran.
--
Intelligent Design is abbreviated ID because those are the first two letters
in the word idiot.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3851
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
http://www.giwersworld.org
Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
>>>> there any
>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
>>>> know
>>>> of any, please present it.
>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
> Wow, Aggie hasn't been here in years!
Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers so a soc.history.ancient
post for some unknown reason. Perhaps whoever it was got tired of fundie bible
believers.
> No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
> (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
> and easily identifiable.
And physical examples of it are? Please post. Argumentation is always
meaningless and mendacious when believers are involved.
> "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
> letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
> of use in the 6th c. BCE.
You will of course produce URLs to images which support your religious belief.
>>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>> Phoenician.
> Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
> coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
> that one known DSS of Leviticus.
> The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
> used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
> script) for the other.
So here we are faced with a serious problem for believers in addition to their
inability to produce physical evidence for their claim Hebrew as once a commonly
spoken language.
Herodotus traveled the region and made many mentions of the Palestinians by
that name. Later there were two surveys of the conquests of Alexander and there
are the Palestinians again. But in all three cases there is no mention of any
Hebrews or Israelis or Judeans nor any people who could have been them.
The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
Hadrian. After that no more are found.
--
No one complained when Jews drove Palestinians into the sea.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3858
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Matt Giwer
> In article <1187846725.0...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Stem sells <gestureo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>> Aramaic.
>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> Hebrew was the language commonly spoken only before
> the Captivity. Upon the return, the Aramaic learned
> in Babylonia, which was the commercial language of
> most of the Assyrian Empire even before, supplanted
> it for common use. Hebrew remained as the language
> of the religious texts.
Are you aware there is no physical evidence for a Babylonian captivity? And you
have to want to believe to torture two mentions into referring to the mythical
bible people.
The problem is there is no time for a unique Hebrew language to have appeared
and disappeared in addition to no mention of any such thing in any contemporary
inscription or writing. Until around 1000-900 BC Egypt's New Kingdom ruled the
land all the way to the Euphrates. The region has a few other languages in and
around it including Phoenician and Aramaic and later Persian and Greek. The
country itself is on one of the two major trade routes to and from Egypt.
(Today's Israel with an extent to the Red Sea is a modern invention so they were
not on the other trade route to Yemen for funerary spice.) In the 5th c. BC,
according to Herodotus the land was ruled by Syria and its inhabitants were
called the Palestine Syrian.
When these people first appear in history in the 2nd c. BC they are speaking
Aramaic.
So at most we have between after Herodotus in the 5th c. BC for Hebrew to both
evolve and disappear as a spoken language before the 2nd c BC. There are no
known examples of such a thing ever happening.
--
No one complained when Jews drove Palestinians into the sea.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3858
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Israel says no extermination
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a13
Martin Edwards
> On Aug 23, 1:25 am, Stem sells <gestureofresp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>>
>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>> Aramaic.
>
> Aramaic is a very diversified group of languages. One contemporary
> scholar says there's more diversity just within North East Neo-Aramaic
> than in the entire continuum of Arabic dialects.
>
> Jesus spoke Palestinian Aramaic, a West Aramaic language. Syriac is an
> East Aramaic language, first attested in inscriptions dated during
> Jesus's lifetime. (When the Mel Gibson movie had people speaking
> Syriac, it chose the wrong variety of Aramaic, but the one that is
> best attested. It would not have been possible to translate the script
> into Jewish Palestinian Aramaic of the 1st c. CE.)
>
would have spoken to each other in Greek, a second language for both of
them.
--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”
Martin Edwards
where I have slagged him off. I was subject to Christian indoctrination
from the age of five, which happened in the /state/ schools in England
of that period. Baseless preconceptions are remarkably persistent.
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
> Herman Rubin wrote:
>> In article <1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language
>>>> nor is there any
>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint.
>>>> If you know
>>>> of any, please present it.
>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>>
>> Not just the Tetragrammaton, but most books of the Hebrew
>> Bible are found in both scripts.
>
> But all appear AFTER the Septuagint first appears in history in the
> late 3rd c. BC.
>
> Were there not a popular religion attached the Septuagint would be
> considered the creation of the religion similar to the Book of Mormon,
> Dianetics and the Koran.
>
the period. The NT varies from good Greek of its own period to gibberish.
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
>
> "Stem sells" <gestureo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1187846725.0...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>>
>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>> Aramaic.
>
> Jesus actually spoke Greek which he learned while in Egypt. That's why
> he was able to communicated with Roman soldiers and why his disciples
> were able to spread the gospel to foreigners, since Greek was the lingua
> franca in the eastern part of the Roman Empire.
>
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 23, 1:25 am, Stem sells <gestureofresp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> >> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>
> >> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> >> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> >> Aramaic.
>
> > Aramaic is a very diversified group of languages. One contemporary
> > scholar says there's more diversity just within North East Neo-Aramaic
> > than in the entire continuum of Arabic dialects.
>
> > Jesus spoke Palestinian Aramaic, a West Aramaic language. Syriac is an
> > East Aramaic language, first attested in inscriptions dated during
> > Jesus's lifetime. (When the Mel Gibson movie had people speaking
> > Syriac, it chose the wrong variety of Aramaic, but the one that is
> > best attested. It would not have been possible to translate the script
> > into Jewish Palestinian Aramaic of the 1st c. CE.)
>
> Also, stipulating historicity for the moment, Jesus and Pontius Pilate
> would have spoken to each other in Greek, a second language for both of
> them.
Everyone already knows that doint the rest of the movie in Vatican
Latin was a bit inappropriate.
Peter T. Daniels
So you confirm that it exists. That's how areal features work.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 12:16 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Stem sells wrote:
> >>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
> >>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
> >> From what language? There is no evidence of Hebrew prior to the appearance of
> >> the Greek Septuagint. The inscriptions found are Phoenician so you might mean
> >> from Phoenician.
>
> > My, my, my. the antisemitic retard shows up again.
>
> Yes you are an ignorant twit who has never produced any physical evidence to
> support your religious belief in the bible.
Eh? When have I ever said anything indicating a "religious belief in
the Bible"?
What do _you_ mean by "religious belief in the Bible"?
Are you unaware that a very large majority of biblical scholars hold
nothing that you would recognize as "religious belief in the Bible"?
> > He can't even distinguish a Hebrew inscription from a Phoenician one!
>
> Perhaps you will present one of each and show the intrinsic difference. You
> said INSCRIPTIONS so I expect inscriptions. If you know there is a difference
> you certainly know of a few good examples.
Of course I do. I don't need to go any farther than Donner & Roellig's
famous textbook *Kanaanaeische und Aramaeische Inschriften*, which has
been the standard textbook for forty years.
The earliest yet discovered Hebrew inscription is known as the Gezer
Calendar, the earliest yet discovered Phoenician inscription is known
as the Ahiram Sarcophagus Inscription, and they don't look or read
remotely alike.
If you can't handle German, you can go to J. C. L. Gibson's *Textbook
of Syrian Semitic Inscriptions*, vol. 1, *Hebrew and Moabite
Inscriptions*, and vol. 3, *Phoenician Inscriptions* (maybe it's
Phoenician and Punic, it was too expensive for me to buy). Vol. 2 is
*Aramaic Inscriptions*.
> I do give you credit for having claimed the alphabets were different. That lead
> me to look at "both" and to find one letter was slightly different. You did
> provide a method to show there was no difference between them.
If you can look at Gezer and Ahiram and see no difference between
them, then there's something wrong with your eyes.
If you will turn to p.91 of *The World's Writing Systems*, you will
find in cols. III and V the letterforms side by side The
characteristic differences are already emerging. Now go to p. 93 and
compare cols. IX and X, which give you the scripts of cursive ink
inscriptions.
For the grammatical differences, you'll have to consult any historical
grammar of Phoenician (it will be considerably smaller than a
historical grammar of Hebrew, because there is so much less material).
Krahmalkov's published a few years ago by Brill brings out the
_similarities_ with Hebrew, so you might find it expecially rewarding
(and it's in English).
> > He's probably never even heard of matres lectionis.
>
> How does that constitute physical evidence Hebrew was once an everyday language
> spoken by a local population?
(a) That wasn't the question but (b) Hebrew ostraca deal with some
very mundane matters and are written in very everyday Hebrew.
(Do you know what "ostracon" means?) We're talking about the Lachish
Letters, the Samaria Letters, the Mesad Hashevyahu letter, etc.
> >>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
> >>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
> >>> Aramaic.
> >>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >> of any, please present it. And if you are going to say "proto-Hebrew" then be
> >> certain to show from the words and letters themselves, not from where it is
> >> found, that in fact it is a different language from Phoenician.
> > Look at any grammar of the inscriptions, retard.
>
> Which is what I did last time you made the suggestion and confirmed the
> inscriptions found were indistinguishable from Phoenician. Perhaps you can do
> better this time?
Evidently you looked at a grammar of Phoenician inscriptions. Now try
looking at a grammar of Hebrew inscriptions.
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 12:16 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Stem sells wrote:
> >>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >> of any, please present it. And if you are going to say "proto-Hebrew" then be
> >> certain to show from the words and letters themselves, not from where it is
> >> found, that in fact it is a different language from Phoenician.
> > Look at any grammar of the inscriptions, retard.
> He has a point. If you think I am on his side look up some of the posts
> where I have slagged him off.
Maybe I don't know what "slag off" means, but I don't recall any such
thing?
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Herman Rubin wrote:
> > In article <1187977427.898457.223...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >>> of any, please present it.
> >> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> >> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> >> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> >> paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> > Not just the Tetragrammaton, but most books of the Hebrew
> > Bible are found in both scripts.
>
> But all appear AFTER the Septuagint first appears in history in the late 3rd c.
> BC.
Can you cite some examples of Bible mss. (other than the fragments of
the Leviticus scroll from Qumran) in Paleo-Hebrew script. whatever
their date?
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
To conquer Jews in particular, he would have to come across them.
After taking Tyre, did Alexander go to Israel (meaning the places in
the Levant that Cyrus had earmarked for resettlement with Jews)?
> The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
> system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
> for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
>
> Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
> from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
> around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
> Hadrian. After that no more are found.
> No one complained when Jews drove Palestinians into the sea.
Jews didn't drive Palestinians into the sea. They either killed them
or forced them to become Jews.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> >> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
> >>>> there any
> >>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
> >>>> know
> >>>> of any, please present it.
> >>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> >>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> >> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
> > Wow, Aggie hasn't been here in years!
>
> Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers
Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
> so a soc.history.ancient
> post for some unknown reason. Perhaps whoever it was got tired of fundie bible
> believers.
The only identifiable fundies at sci.lang are a Muslim troll and a
Hindu troll.
> > No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
> > (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
> > and easily identifiable.
>
> And physical examples of it are? Please post. Argumentation is always
> meaningless and mendacious when believers are involved.
We do like to repeat ourselves, don't we. I gave some examples when I
got to this question earlier in the thread.
> > "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
> > letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
> > of use in the 6th c. BCE.
>
> You will of course produce URLs to images which support your religious belief.
What "religious belief"?
I don't do urls. I do books.
But if you google the names of inscriptions I gave you, you will
doubtless find photographs of them.
> >>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> >>> paleoHebrew script used for?
> >> Phoenician.
> > Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
> > coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
> > that one known DSS of Leviticus.
> > The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
> > used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
> > script) for the other.
>
> So here we are faced with a serious problem for believers in addition to their
> inability to produce physical evidence for their claim Hebrew as once a commonly
> spoken language.
And what, praytell, would be "physical evidence [that any language
w]as once a commonly spoken language"?
> Herodotus traveled the region and made many mentions of the Palestinians by
> that name. Later there were two surveys of the conquests of Alexander and there
> are the Palestinians again. But in all three cases there is no mention of any
> Hebrews or Israelis or Judeans nor any people who could have been them.
I'm not a historian. That's not my problem. They were leaving their
inscriptions all over the place. And Herodotus had no interest at all
in the languages of the peoples he described.
> The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
> system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
> for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
>
> Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
> from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
> around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
> Hadrian. After that no more are found.
Who did all this "finding"? Jerusalem has never been excavated, except
by some rather indiscriminate tunneling in the mid 19th century --
because it has been continuously occupied for millennia. (The same
goes for Aleppo, which has an enormous tell right in the middle.)
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >> of any, please present it.
> > In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> All the DSS are dated after the Septuagint first appear in history. If all you
> mean in YHWH, both Yahweh and his consort Astarte were born of El as described
> in tablets found at Ugarit dating to 1000BC.
Wow -- tablets from Ugarit centuries after it was destroyed? Howcome
Ugariticists have never heard of these?
> If you look into "paleo" Hebrew you can learn how it is identified. They use
> the circular method. If it was found in a place where the OT says the Judeans
> ruled it is given that name. Without the bible it would not be considered
> different.
He that hath eyes, let him see.
The language of such inscriptions as the Siloam Tunnel inscription is
indistinguishable from Biblical Hebrew of the time.
Peter T. Daniels
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
> >> of any, please present it.
>
> > In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> Phonician
Paleo-Hebrew was never used for Phoenician. By the time Paleo-Hebrew
was revived, Phoenician was written with Late Punic scripts.
Harlan Messinger
>
> "Stem sells" <gestureo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1187846725.0...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Just after Jesus' time, prayers in that region were translated in at
>> least 4 languages: Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Syriac.
>>
>> What were the differences of Aramaic and Syriac? What modern day
>> languages are most similar to each? I realize that Jesus spoke
>> Aramaic.
>
> Jesus actually spoke Greek which he learned while in Egypt.
So, before he went to Egypt and learned Greek, he didn't know how to
speak anything?
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> The problem is there is no time for a unique Hebrew language to have appeared and disappeared
If Phoenician had time to develop, then Hebrew had time to develop.
They were the north end and south end of the Canaanite dialect
continuum:
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew.htm#historysect
We have only fragments of most of the various Canaanite dialects, of
the period 1000-500 BCE such as those of Samaria, Galilee, Coastal
Plain, Ammon, Edom or Moab. However, it would seem that they were
mutually intelligible[13]. Two dialects, from opposite ends of the
Canaanite spectrum, have left major literary remains. In the extreme
north, on the Lebanese coast, was Phoenician[14] and its North African
Carthaginian offshoot Punic, have left inscriptions[15] dating from
10th-1st centuries BCE and 9th C BCE to 2nd CE respectively. This
tended to be a rapidly developing language very open to foreign
influences as we would expect for a language of a sea-faring people.
In the extreme South we have the literary dialect of Jerusalem i.e.
Biblical Hebrew. Before we leave the other languages, we could point
out one of the many benefits to the understanding of Hebrew gained
through the comparative study of Semitic languages. As I said before,
the Semitic languages are closely related. For example "A survey of
the first 100 Phoenician words in the dictionary shows that 82 percent
have the same meaning in Hebrew.
> in addition to no mention of any such thing in any contemporary
> inscription or writing.
There would obviously be no such mention. Hebrew is a modern name for
the literary form of a south Canaanite dialect.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> Agamemnon wrote:
> > Jesus actually spoke Greek which he learned while in Egypt. That's why
> > he was able to communicated with Roman soldiers and why his disciples
> > were able to spread the gospel to foreigners, since Greek was the lingua
> > franca in the eastern part of the Roman Empire.
>
> That would not be necessary: plenty of people spoke it in Palestine.
Those who grew up in Egypt would have learnt it in Egypt, not
Palestine.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Agamemnon wrote:
> > Jesus actually spoke Greek which he learned while in Egypt.
> So, before he went to Egypt and learned Greek, he didn't know how to
> speak anything?
According to Agamemnon, he grew up in Egypt and spoke Greek before he
went to Palestine and learnt Aramaic.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>
> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
> >> there any
> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
> >> know
> >> of any, please present it.
>
> > In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>
> of the seven Gods mentioned in the bible that the so-called Hebrews
> worshiped were Phoenicians Gods. So what can we conclude from that? That the
> people depicted were in fact Phoenicians, plain and simple with no room for
> further debate since all those who worshiped the Greek Gods by their Greek
> names where considered Greek, those that worshiped the Roman Gods by their
> Roman names were considered Romans and those that worshiped the Babylonians
> Gods by their Babylonian names were considered Babylonians and so on. And
> why was that. Its because the Gods were their biological ancestors who ruled
> over them as kings in the past, and that is what all the founding fathers of
> the Christians Church said.
>
> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
Phoenician would be north Canaanite dialects. At the time the
paleoHebrew script was used, Phoenician was written using the very
similar Phoenician script. They're very similar because the 10-
century paleoHebrew is dervived from the 11+ century Phoenician
script.
> Why were so-called Hebrews worshiping Phoenicians Gods if they
> were not Phoenicians themselves?
That's like asking: Why were so-called Ionians worshipping Achaeans'
gods if they were not Achaeans themselves? People speaking similar
dialects and who are in close contact can have enough interaction and
enough common ancestry to worship the same gods. That they shared gods
with Achaeans didn't make the Ionians Achaeans.
> The term Hebrew itself is the name of a
> tribe of horse riding bandits who were exterminated by Mernepah.
References?
> The people
> who lived in Judea in Roman times called themselves Judeans after Judas
> Maccabbee.
Does this look like it was authored in (of after) the time of Judas
Maccabeus?
Thus says King Cyrus of Persia, "YHWH the God of heaven has given me
all the kingdoms of the earth. He has commanded me to build him a
house in Jerusalem of Judah." - Ezra 1:2
Yusuf B Gursey
I don't, at least for modern arabic. C. Rabin postulates it for Old
Hijazi.
Peter T. Daniels
> or forced them to become Jews.-
What _are_ you talking about?
Peter T. Daniels
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
> > "Stem sells" <gestureofresp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Mommy and foster-daddy presumably spoke Galilean Aramaic at home. They
came back to Israel when Herod was dead and Jesus was a young child
(Matt 1:19-21). (If you're going to follow the going-down-to-Egypt
story, then you need to follow the coming-back story in the same
source.) He presumably acquired Aramaic at home and Greek (and
possibly Egyptian?) when outside playing with his friends.
Now Herod died in 4 BC, so if Jesus was born in 4 BC, he didn't
acquire any languages at all in Egypt.
Peter T. Daniels
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 8:07 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem is there is no time for a unique Hebrew language to have appeared and disappeared
>
> If Phoenician had time to develop, then Hebrew had time to develop.
> They were the north end and south end of the Canaanite dialect
> continuum:http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew.htm#historysect
That's an excellent survey. I wonder who David Steinberg is.
Peter T. Daniels
Peter T. Daniels
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 4:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> > > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> > > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> > Phoenician.
>
> Phoenician would be north Canaanite dialects. At the time the
> paleoHebrew script was used, Phoenician was written using the very
> similar Phoenician script. They're very similar because the 10-
> century paleoHebrew is dervived from the 11+ century Phoenician
> script.
Please pay attention. "Paleo-Hebrew" is the name of the revived
imitation of Old Hebrew found between about the 2nd c. BCE and the 2nd
c. CE. It is _not_ the Old Hebrew script of the early Hebrew
inscriptions.
Peter T. Daniels
> > > > > examples in modern arabic?
> Hijazi.-
Which is utterly irrelevant for an areal feature in the Levant.
You made me do it. Mitchell, Pronouncing Arabic 2 (1993), p. 131:
"A closer variant of /a(a)/ often occurs in Lebanon and coastal Syria
where the opener and retracted variety (towards /A/ {I mean alpha})
regularly appears in Damascus. Retraction is also noticeable in much
Palestinian speech when the vowel preceds pause, e.g. Haka 'he spoke',
bada 'he began'. ... In KA, and the Iraqi position is likely to be
similar, though further investigation is desirable, /a/ and /aa/
differ greatly from a qualitative standpoint; /a/ broadly accords with
the indications given above, but /aa/ in e.g. saal 'it flowed', jaab
'he brought', yxaaf 'he is afraid', laakin 'but', laazim 'necessary'
is for many speakers a back vowel, though less retracted than /AA/ in
the emphatic context of e.g. TAAH 'he fell' or SAArAx 'he shouted'. /
aa/ in jaab etc. occurs with genuinely front vowel quality only in F-
style educated speech. ... : (KA = Kuwaiti, F-style = formal)
Richard Wordingham
>> > > On Aug 24, 8:59 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > > > > On Aug 24, 3:56 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > The most salient differences between them is that in West
>> > > > > > Syriac, a: >
>> > > > > > o: (an areal feature found in Phoenician, Hebrew to some
>> > > > > > extent, and
>> > > > > > Modern Arabic) and Western mss. use miniature Greek vowels for
>> > > > No, just something I learned in Semitic linguistics class 30-odd
>> > > > years
>> > > > ago, or maybe from Lynn Killean -- remember, she's the prof who got
>> > > > asked to leave Syria after Assad found out she was researching
>> > > > Syrian
>> > > > rather than Classical Arabic.
> You made me do it. Mitchell, Pronouncing Arabic 2 (1993), p. 131:
> "A closer variant of /a(a)/ often occurs in Lebanon and coastal Syria
> where the opener and retracted variety (towards /A/ {I mean alpha})
> regularly appears in Damascus. Retraction is also noticeable in much
> Palestinian speech when the vowel preceds pause, e.g. Haka 'he spoke',
> bada 'he began'. ... In KA, and the Iraqi position is likely to be
> similar, though further investigation is desirable, /a/ and /aa/
> differ greatly from a qualitative standpoint; /a/ broadly accords with
> the indications given above, but /aa/ in e.g. saal 'it flowed', jaab
> 'he brought', yxaaf 'he is afraid', laakin 'but', laazim 'necessary'
> is for many speakers a back vowel, though less retracted than /AA/ in
> the emphatic context of e.g. TAAH 'he fell' or SAArAx 'he shouted'. /
> aa/ in jaab etc. occurs with genuinely front vowel quality only in F-
> style educated speech. ... : (KA = Kuwaiti, F-style = formal)
Don't you need rounding rather than mere backness to call it a: > o:? Have
I missed something in this account, because I see no report of roundness.
Richard.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Aug 25, 1:04 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 25, 7:38 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Aug 24, 11:29 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > > > On Aug 24, 8:59 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Aug 24, 4:15 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 24, 3:56 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > The most salient differences between them is that in West Syriac, a: >
> > > > > > > o: (an areal feature found in Phoenician, Hebrew to some extent, and
> > > > > > > Modern Arabic) and Western mss. use miniature Greek vowels for
> > > > > > examples in modern arabic?
> > > > > No, just something I learned in Semitic linguistics class 30-odd years
> > > > > ago, or maybe from Lynn Killean -- remember, she's the prof who got
> > > > > asked to leave Syria after Assad found out she was researching Syrian
> > > > > rather than Classical Arabic.
> > > > > I could try looking in Fischer/Jastrow or Mitchell, Pronouncing Arabic 2, but that would be uninteresting..
> > > > AFAIK it is at least rare.-
> > > So you confirm that it exists. That's how areal features work.
> > I don't, at least for modern arabic. C. Rabin postulates it for Old
> > Hijazi.-
>
> Which is utterly irrelevant for an areal feature in the Levant.
I agree. I never experienced /a:/ as rounded in arabic speech.
>
> You made me do it. Mitchell, Pronouncing Arabic 2 (1993), p. 131:
>
> "A closer variant of /a(a)/ often occurs in Lebanon and coastal Syria
> where the opener and retracted variety (towards /A/ {I mean alpha})
> regularly appears in Damascus. Retraction is also noticeable in much
> Palestinian speech when the vowel preceds pause, e.g. Haka 'he spoke',
> bada 'he began'. ... In KA, and the Iraqi position is likely to be
> similar, though further investigation is desirable, /a/ and /aa/
> differ greatly from a qualitative standpoint; /a/ broadly accords with
> the indications given above, but /aa/ in e.g. saal 'it flowed', jaab
> 'he brought', yxaaf 'he is afraid', laakin 'but', laazim 'necessary'
> is for many speakers a back vowel, though less retracted than /AA/ in
> the emphatic context of e.g. TAAH 'he fell' or SAArAx 'he shouted'. /
> aa/ in jaab etc. occurs with genuinely front vowel quality only in F-
> style educated speech. ... : (KA = Kuwaiti, F-style = formal)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
I agree.
> Richard.
Harlan Messinger
Peter T. Daniels
Vermes would never claim to be a linguist!
Peter T. Daniels
There's plenty more where that came from. Does something of Mitchell's
style (or lack of it) come through in that excerpt? And there are no
paragraph breaks, so finding _anything_ in that book is a trial.
(There's an index, but what would you look under??)
Matt Giwer
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Herman Rubin wrote:
>>> ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language
>>>>> nor is there any
>>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint.
>>>>> If you know
>>>>> of any, please present it.
>>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>>> Bible are found in both scripts.
>> But all appear AFTER the Septuagint first appears in history in
>> the late 3rd c. BC.
>> considered the creation of the religion similar to the Book of Mormon,
>> Dianetics and the Koran.
> I can add to that that it reads like good, and quite jejune, Greek of
> the period. The NT varies from good Greek of its own period to gibberish.
When observing fundamentalist muslims who refuse to study anything but the
Koran we correctly call them ignorant.
When observing Orthodox Jews who refuse to study anything but the Torah we
incorrectly assume they were educated and learned. The whole Maccabe revolt is
against the Greek ideals of learning and art.
--
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Palestinians themselves.
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Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> When observing Orthodox Jews who refuse to study anything but the Torah we
> incorrectly assume they were educated and learned.
You do love to parade your ignorance of what you hate!
The only Jews who study nothing but Torah are Samaritans (a few
hundred survive) and Karaites (are there any at all left)?
Matt Giwer
And naming things which appeared after the Septuagint will serve what purpose?
--
Intelligent Design is abbreviated ID because those are the first two letters
in the word idiot.
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Matt Giwer
As there is no physical evidence of any Babylonian captivity there is no
involvement of Cyrus. And unless you are claiming Alexander launched a sea
invasion of Egypt from Tyre is is clear his armies went through the land of the
mythical Judeans. As he did rule Syria which did include the land of the
Palestine Syrians where are you going to hide those Judeans so no one can find
them?
>> The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
>> system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
>> for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
>> Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
>> from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
>> around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
>> Hadrian. After that no more are found.
>> --
>> No one complained when Jews drove Palestinians into the sea.
> Jews didn't drive Palestinians into the sea. They either killed them
> or forced them to become Jews.
That is what we call a sig. It refers to the murderous zionist thieves.
--
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murder and executed. Who said we cannot learn from the Chinese?
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Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 10:52 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>>>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
>>>>>> there any
>>>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> of any, please present it.
>>>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
>>> Wow, Aggie hasn't been here in years!
>> Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers
> Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
You for one. You accept the OT stories when there is no physical evidence to
support them.
>> so a soc.history.ancient
>> post for some unknown reason. Perhaps whoever it was got tired of fundie bible
>> believers.
> The only identifiable fundies at sci.lang are a Muslim troll and a
> Hindu troll.
And a bible believer, you.
>>> No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
>>> (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
>>> and easily identifiable.
>> And physical examples of it are? Please post. Argumentation is always
>> meaningless and mendacious when believers are involved.
> We do like to repeat ourselves, don't we. I gave some examples when I
> got to this question earlier in the thread.
Citations of books written by others is an appeal to authority. That was
identified as a logical fallacy about 2500 years ago.
>>> "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
>>> letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
>>> of use in the 6th c. BCE.
>> You will of course produce URLs to images which support your religious belief.
> What "religious belief"?
> I don't do urls. I do books.
You do nothing but appeals to authority?
> But if you google the names of inscriptions I gave you, you will
> doubtless find photographs of them.
So you have nothing but logical fallacies to offer.
>>>>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
>>>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>>>> Phoenician.
>>> Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
>>> coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
>>> that one known DSS of Leviticus.
>>> The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
>>> used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
>>> script) for the other.
>> So here we are faced with a serious problem for believers in addition to their
>> inability to produce physical evidence for their claim Hebrew as once a commonly
>> spoken language.
> And what, praytell, would be "physical evidence [that any language
> w]as once a commonly spoken language"?
Something you must have to claim it was. I was merely pointing out there is
none. For other languages there are contemporary mentions of people speaking
other languages but not a single contemporary mention of Judeans prior to the
Septuagint. When they are mentioned their language is described as what we call
Aramaic.
>> Herodotus traveled the region and made many mentions of the Palestinians by
>> that name. Later there were two surveys of the conquests of Alexander and there
>> are the Palestinians again. But in all three cases there is no mention of any
>> Hebrews or Israelis or Judeans nor any people who could have been them.
> I'm not a historian. That's not my problem. They were leaving their
> inscriptions all over the place. And Herodotus had no interest at all
> in the languages of the peoples he described.
Nor he describe any people whose customs would be those attributable to the
people in the OT and he did make lists of people who practiced circumcision and
none of them are the OT people. But he made six mentions of the Palestinians by
name.
As for it not being your problem, you are building a belief system on a
non-existent foundation of falsely assuming the Judean religion was not invented
shortly before the Judeans first appear in history.
>> The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
>> system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
>> for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
>> Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
>> from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
>> around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
>> Hadrian. After that no more are found.
> Who did all this "finding"? Jerusalem has never been excavated, except
> by some rather indiscriminate tunneling in the mid 19th century --
> because it has been continuously occupied for millennia. (The same
> goes for Aleppo, which has an enormous tell right in the middle.)
Trash dumps and wells of course. It is a very non-intrusive method and pottery
was commonly disposed of in wells and the statues are easily found in them.
Trash dumps are even better as no one claims them or that they are holy places.
--
A mining town of 1000 people has all the families interelated. 100 of them
die in a mine accident. Each of the 900 survivors has lost 100 relatives for
a grand total of 90,000 dead relatives. I give you the holocaust.
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Matt Giwer
More secret Hebrew inscriptions?
--
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Palestine from ever being free of the Israel occupation.
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Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 10:38 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is there any
>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you know
>>>> of any, please present it.
>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
>> mean in YHWH, both Yahweh and his consort Astarte were born of El as described
>> in tablets found at Ugarit dating to 1000BC.
> Wow -- tablets from Ugarit centuries after it was destroyed? Howcome
> Ugariticists have never heard of these?
Why did you not know of them before now?
>> If you look into "paleo" Hebrew you can learn how it is identified. They use
>> the circular method. If it was found in a place where the OT says the Judeans
>> ruled it is given that name. Without the bible it would not be considered
>> different.
> He that hath eyes, let him see.
> The language of such inscriptions as the Siloam Tunnel inscription is
> indistinguishable from Biblical Hebrew of the time.
Containing no biblical content whatsoever BUT you assume it vanished from
history shortly after it was made until modern times. You assume it was unknown
to the Maccabes for no reason. And you assume there were Hebrews even though
there is no physical evidence there were ever such people.
And of course you thump the bible the way a Latter Day Saints thumps the Book
of Mormon and as a Scientologist thumps Dianetics. You are a believer no matter
your denials as your positions are transparently those of a believer.
--
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morality to kill Americans to balance the scales.
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Matt Giwer
Would you be the first to produce an archaeological find showing that any
people in the region referred to themselves as Canaanites? Can you show any
contemporary mention of a people called by that name other than the OT?
As you cannot what makes you think they are other than another of the
inventions is a collections of stories of magic and miracles?
> At the time the
> paleoHebrew script was used, Phoenician was written using the very
> similar Phoenician script. They're very similar because the 10-
> century paleoHebrew is dervived from the 11+ century Phoenician
> script.
Save there is no proper identification of anything as paleo-hebrew. It is all
circular reasoning which is a logical fallacy.
>> Why were so-called Hebrews worshiping Phoenicians Gods if they
>> were not Phoenicians themselves?
> That's like asking: Why were so-called Ionians worshipping Achaeans'
> gods if they were not Achaeans themselves? People speaking similar
> dialects and who are in close contact can have enough interaction and
> enough common ancestry to worship the same gods. That they shared gods
> with Achaeans didn't make the Ionians Achaeans.
From Ugarit we learn the divine couple Astarte and Yahweh were born of El. How
much more obvious do you want it?
>> The term Hebrew itself is the name of a
>> tribe of horse riding bandits who were exterminated by Mernepah.
>
> References?
>
>> The people
>> who lived in Judea in Roman times called themselves Judeans after Judas
>> Maccabbee.
> Does this look like it was authored in (of after) the time of Judas
> Maccabeus?
Yes. Of course you could give a reason it was impossible to invent Ezra should
you wish to have a go at it.
> Thus says King Cyrus of Persia, "YHWH the God of heaven has given me
> all the kingdoms of the earth. He has commanded me to build him a
> house in Jerusalem of Judah." - Ezra 1:2
Sure would be nice to have that found in Persia rather than in something that
does not appear in history until centuries after the supposed event.
--
Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, Wilson, Roosevelt, Johnson and Bush have all
tricked the US into war. Why do people resist the facts?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3844
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Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 8:07 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>> The problem is there is no time for a unique Hebrew language to have appeared and disappeared
>
> If Phoenician had time to develop, then Hebrew had time to develop.
I have given you the times of mentions of other languages being spoken. You are
left with the window of time between them. The Phoenicians were around for
centuries, by some estimates more than a thousand years before the founding of
Tyre.
> They were the north end and south end of the Canaanite dialect
> continuum:
> http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew.htm#historysect
> We have only fragments of most of the various Canaanite dialects, of
> the period 1000-500 BCE such as those of Samaria, Galilee, Coastal
> Plain, Ammon, Edom or Moab. However, it would seem that they were
> mutually intelligible[13]. Two dialects, from opposite ends of the
> Canaanite spectrum, have left major literary remains. In the extreme
> north, on the Lebanese coast, was Phoenician[14] and its North African
> Carthaginian offshoot Punic, have left inscriptions[15] dating from
> 10th-1st centuries BCE and 9th C BCE to 2nd CE respectively. This
> tended to be a rapidly developing language very open to foreign
> influences as we would expect for a language of a sea-faring people.
> In the extreme South we have the literary dialect of Jerusalem i.e.
> Biblical Hebrew. Before we leave the other languages, we could point
> out one of the many benefits to the understanding of Hebrew gained
> through the comparative study of Semitic languages. As I said before,
> the Semitic languages are closely related. For example "A survey of
> the first 100 Phoenician words in the dictionary shows that 82 percent
> have the same meaning in Hebrew.
The problem is we know believers can convince themselves of anything they want
and usually do. There are so many examples of it that they cannot be taken as
authorities of any sort. We must examine the physical evidence ourselves.
>> in addition to no mention of any such thing in any contemporary
>> inscription or writing.
> There would obviously be no such mention. Hebrew is a modern name for
> the literary form of a south Canaanite dialect.
Canaanites are found only the books of magic and miracles we call the Old
Testament.
--
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them. I have no idea why Americans are pissed when Iraqis do the same thing.
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Matt Giwer
Canaanites and the land of Canaan exist only in the mythical Old Testament. You
might as well say it is a dialect of the Land of Oz or of Atlantis.
--
As of July 2007, the Iraq war is costing the same as three nuclear aircraft
carriers every month. Never again question the cost of a carrier.
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Matt Giwer
> On Aug 24, 10:52 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
>>>>>> there any
>>>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> of any, please present it.
>>>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
>>>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
>> Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers
>
> Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
All those who give the OT myths more credibility than they give the Book of
Mormon or Dianetics or the Koran for that matter.
--
When a Chinese company causes the death of customers the CEO is charged with
murder and executed. Who said we cannot learn from the Chinese?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3854
Dominic Bojarski
Yes, there are. They are the smallest officially recognized minority
in Poland, with about 100 members that still practice the religion. I
don't know whether they still speak the language though. There is a
larger community in Troki, Lithuania (not sure about the Lithuanian
spelling- I think it's Trakai). They still do speak the language.
Dominic Bojarski
mb
> > Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
>
> All those who give the OT myths more credibility than they give the Book of
> Mormon or Dianetics or the Koran for that matter.
Thanks, we needed that.
I'll copy just the passage so we have a focused post.
Matt Giwer
I am talking about the Judeans in Greek and Roman times. If you read the first
couple lines of 1 Maccabe you can read that as the reason.
Later we have Josephus
Source is http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/apion1.html
He undoubtedly was familiar with the Judean holy books of the time,
what we call the Old Testament. So when he states
"8. For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us,
disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,]
but only twenty-two books,"
Clearly a reference to a different OT but you should get the point.
I would also suggest you must have noted bibleland is not known to have or even
credited with a single contribution to civilization. Art, architecture,
literature, philosophy including natural, math, nothing whatsoever. And while
you may think monotheism a contribution we know for a fact they worshiped both
Yahweh and Astarte/Ashara/Ishtar/Aphrodite. We have a surviving mention of her
temple in Jerusalem having eight sides just like the Mosque.
--
Every paid position as a university professor originated as a labor of love
without any form of financial reward.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3849
Matt Giwer
> On Aug 25, 8:57 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
>> All those who give the OT myths more credibility than they give the Book of
>> Mormon or Dianetics or the Koran for that matter.
> Thanks, we needed that.
> I'll copy just the passage so we have a focused post.
There are so many who while declaiming abject, servile acceptance of religious
teachings and stories do in fact accept what is left after they strip away what
they do not like. It is an attempt to salvage a belief rather than examine a
belief. A rational person insists on evidence from the ground up for any and
every thing in the religion. They are eager to do it for the religions of other
people but not to their own.
A common thing is for them to accept biblical Israel is an exaggeration but
claim there really was an Israel. If there there was no Israel as described in
the bible then there was no biblical Israel, period.
Trying the fallback to Solomon being a hilltop warlord shitcans everything and
puts the stories beyond the realm of exaggeration and into total fantasy. So
tell me how a small group run by a hilltop warlord develops a separate language
they want to call Hebrew?
How do these people who left no signs of being other than farmers and goat
herders develop an independent culture or religion or anything of interest?
Every place else in the world it took prosperous cities to do such things and
there are no such cities identifiable as originating locally with any connection
to bible stories. There is no evidence Jerusalem existed before the 6th c. BC.
But because the bible says it did the physical evidence required to date every
other city in the ancient world is not required for Jerusalem.
Over a century ago the start of the science of archaeology was the realization
the bible was worthless as a guide. Even a passing familiarity with ancient
Egypt from TV documentaries shows the Egypt of Exodus and Genesis did not exist
and the stories cannot be true.
But believers have been digging in bible land for over a century and can't
learn anything. In the early 20th c. everything found was given a bible
connection and still today believers do the same thing. All of those finds were
later revised and have no bible connection. Even Jericho, no one can find
serious evidence of walls.
But the clincher is the museums in Israel itself. They are on the web. You can
read up on their exhibits. They have lots of Roman period material, much less
Greek period material and a few questionable fragments from earlier times. It is
only when it gets very old that they Egyptian finds.
And place else in the world where we find official Egyptian seals we conclude
Egyptian rule. But in bibleland it means the locals used a system they learned
from Egypt.
--
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other dictators around the world. Is it any surprise the US supports Israel?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3852
Dominic Bojarski
I think it's time for you to take your meds, buddy.
Dominic Bojarski
mb
...
> How do these people who left no signs of being other than farmers and goat
> herders develop an independent culture or religion or anything of interest?
Wrong. Religion is by definition the production of superstitious
hillbillies; you cannot expect its ideators to have produced much of
interest. Especially so with the three "monotheistic" ones.
Joachim Pense
>
> Now Herod died in 4 BC, so if Jesus was born in 4 BC, he didn't
> acquire any languages at all in Egypt.
Did you deliberately write BC rather then BCE here?
Joachim
Matt Giwer
> On Aug 25, 10:39 pm, Matt Giwer
Notice the key word INDEPENDENT.
--
The difference between the President of France and the President of the
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Matt Giwer
I should take meds because I recite the facts? Rather like Brave New World
don't you think?
--
The number of people required to be involved to keep the JFK assassination
conspiracy a secret makes it highly improbable. And that is why we all know
about it.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3845
Matt Giwer
The difference is?
--
The difference between the President of France and the President of the
United States is the President of France can speak proper English.
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Dominic Bojarski
No, I don't. You should take meds because you're pathologically
delusional. Rather like standard medical practice, don't you think?
Dominic Bojarski
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 25, 10:58 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> When observing Orthodox Jews who refuse to study anything but the Torah we
> >> incorrectly assume they were educated and learned.
> > You do love to parade your ignorance of what you hate!
> > The only Jews who study nothing but Torah are Samaritans (a few
> > hundred survive) and Karaites (are there any at all left)?
>
> I am talking about the Judeans in Greek and Roman times.
Then why did you say "Orthodox Jews"? That's a category that was
invented in the early 19th century CE.
> If you read the first
> couple lines of 1 Maccabe you can read that as the reason.
>
> Later we have Josephus
>
> Source ishttp://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/apion1.html
> He undoubtedly was familiar with the Judean holy books of the time,
> what we call the Old Testament. So when he states
> "8. For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us,
> disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,]
> but only twenty-two books,"
>
> Clearly a reference to a different OT but you should get the point.
Different from what???
What books other than the OT do you think Josephus is excluding?
Isn't the _first_ rule in propaganda, "Know your enemy"? You obviously
know nothing at all about what you attack.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 10:52 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> >>>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:1187977427.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
> >>>>>> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor is
> >>>>>> there any
> >>>>>> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If you
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>> of any, please present it.
> >>>>> In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are instances of the Tetragrammaton
> >>>>> being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
> >>>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
> >>> Wow, Aggie hasn't been here in years!
> >> Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers
> > Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
>
> You for one. You accept the OT stories when there is no physical evidence to
> support them.
????? What "story" did I accept? We have not discussed a single
narrative from the "OT"!
> >> so a soc.history.ancient
> >> post for some unknown reason. Perhaps whoever it was got tired of fundie bible
> >> believers.
> > The only identifiable fundies at sci.lang are a Muslim troll and a
> > Hindu troll.
>
> And a bible believer, you.
?????
Evidence?
> >>> No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
> >>> (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
> >>> and easily identifiable.
> >> And physical examples of it are? Please post. Argumentation is always
> >> meaningless and mendacious when believers are involved.
> > We do like to repeat ourselves, don't we. I gave some examples when I
> > got to this question earlier in the thread.
>
> Citations of books written by others is an appeal to authority. That was
> identified as a logical fallacy about 2500 years ago.
So accprding to "Matt Giwer," every physicist should begin by
reinventing fluxions -- they're not allowed to consult the writings of
Isaac Newton??
> >>> "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
> >>> letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
> >>> of use in the 6th c. BCE.
> >> You will of course produce URLs to images which support your religious belief.
> > What "religious belief"?
> > I don't do urls. I do books.
>
> You do nothing but appeals to authority?
When I write an article or book, I go back to the evidence behind the
sources. This, however, is "usenet," and I'm certainly not going to
waste that sort of time on the likes of you.
> > But if you google the names of inscriptions I gave you, you will
> > doubtless find photographs of them.
>
> So you have nothing but logical fallacies to offer.
If you're too lazy to type a few words yourself, you're too lazy to
bother with.
> >>>>> written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> >>>>> paleoHebrew script used for?
> >>>> Phoenician.
> >>> Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
> >>> coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
> >>> that one known DSS of Leviticus.
> >>> The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
> >>> used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
> >>> script) for the other.
> >> So here we are faced with a serious problem for believers in addition to their
> >> inability to produce physical evidence for their claim Hebrew as once a commonly
> >> spoken language.
> > And what, praytell, would be "physical evidence [that any language
> > w]as once a commonly spoken language"?
>
> Something you must have to claim it was. I was merely pointing out there is
> none. For other languages there are contemporary mentions of people speaking
> other languages but not a single contemporary mention of Judeans prior to the
> Septuagint. When they are mentioned their language is described as what we call
> Aramaic.
Either they;re not mentioned, or they're mentioned. You've just
committed the "logical fallacy" of asserting a contradiction, so
everything you say is worthless.
> >> Herodotus traveled the region and made many mentions of the Palestinians by
> >> that name. Later there were two surveys of the conquests of Alexander and there
> >> are the Palestinians again. But in all three cases there is no mention of any
> >> Hebrews or Israelis or Judeans nor any people who could have been them.
> > I'm not a historian. That's not my problem. They were leaving their
> > inscriptions all over the place. And Herodotus had no interest at all
> > in the languages of the peoples he described.
>
> Nor he describe any people whose customs would be those attributable to the
> people in the OT and he did make lists of people who practiced circumcision and
> none of them are the OT people. But he made six mentions of the Palestinians by
> name.
>
> As for it not being your problem, you are building a belief system on a
> non-existent foundation of falsely assuming the Judean religion was not invented
> shortly before the Judeans first appear in history.
I have no interest in "Judean religion." My interest is the writing
systems of them and everyone else in the world.
> >> The absence of mention has an additional problem for believers. By the belief
> >> system of their religion, their bible people were the strangest in all the world
> >> for having only one god. Yet these unique people escape all mention.
> >> Of course we know the simpler explanation, the statues of Ashara with breasts
> >> from shoulders to crotch (40 of them not 2 big ones) found at all levels in and
> >> around Jerusalem until Judeans are forbidden to enter the city by the emperor
> >> Hadrian. After that no more are found.
> > Who did all this "finding"? Jerusalem has never been excavated, except
> > by some rather indiscriminate tunneling in the mid 19th century --
> > because it has been continuously occupied for millennia. (The same
> > goes for Aleppo, which has an enormous tell right in the middle.)
>
> Trash dumps and wells of course. It is a very non-intrusive method and pottery
> was commonly disposed of in wells and the statues are easily found in them.
> Trash dumps are even better as no one claims them or that they are holy places.
Kindly document these "excavations" of "trash dumps and wells."
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Actually someone added the sci.lang bible thumpers
>
> > Please identify even one "sci.lang bible thumper"?
>
> All those who give the OT myths more credibility than they give the Book of
> Mormon or Dianetics or the Koran for that matter.
I will say it again. Identify even one.
Peter T. Daniels
> How do these people who left no signs of being other than farmers and goat
> herders develop an independent culture or religion or anything of interest?
> Every place else in the world it took prosperous cities to do such things
Wow! You don't know anything about anything!
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Please pay attention. "Paleo-Hebrew" is the name of the revived
> > imitation of Old Hebrew found between about the 2nd c. BCE and the 2nd
> > c. CE. It is _not_ the Old Hebrew script of the early Hebrew
> > inscriptions.
>
> More secret Hebrew inscriptions?
Secret??
If you're too stupid to open a book (or search for a website) and look
at the photos, drawings, transliterations, transcriptions,
translations, and commentary, then you can go see the objects in the
museums. The Gezer Calendar and Siloam Tunnel Inscription are in
Istanbul, the Silwan inscription is in London, the Lachish letters are
split between London and Jerusalem, the Moabite Stone is in Paris.
Donner & Roellig don't say where the other ostraca are; the Samarian
ostraca might, at least in part, be in Cambridge, since they were
found in a Harvard excavation.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
Amarna letters 8, 9, 14, 109, 110, 131, 137, 145, 151, 162, and 367.
Next question?
> >> The term Hebrew itself is the name of a
> >> tribe of horse riding bandits who were exterminated by Mernepah.
>
> > References?
We're still waiting.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 10:38 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> as described
> >> in tablets found at Ugarit dating to 1000BC.
> > Wow -- tablets from Ugarit centuries after it was destroyed? Howcome
> > Ugariticists have never heard of these?
>
> Why did you not know of them before now?
Because there is no such thing.
> >> If you look into "paleo" Hebrew you can learn how it is identified. They use
> >> the circular method. If it was found in a place where the OT says the Judeans
> >> ruled it is given that name. Without the bible it would not be considered
> >> different.
> > He that hath eyes, let him see.
> > The language of such inscriptions as the Siloam Tunnel inscription is
> > indistinguishable from Biblical Hebrew of the time.
>
> Containing no biblical content whatsoever
??? It confirms the account of the Siloam Tunnel in 2 Chr 30:30.
(Just as the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser depicts Jehu of the House of
Omri paying tribute, and the Moabite Stone gives the other side of the
conflict described in 2 Kgs 3.)
If you would bother to read even the most basic commentary on the
Bible, you would learn what narratives find outside confirmation and
which ones don't.
> BUT you assume it vanished from
> history shortly after it was made until modern times. You assume it was unknown
> to the Maccabes for no reason.
Why are you making up lies? Hebrew did not "vanish from history"! It
remained in full,.productive use for 2000 years (just not as anyone's
native language).
> And you assume there were Hebrews even though
> there is no physical evidence there were ever such people.
You just claimed that the Hebrews were horse-riders destroyed by
Merneptah. Either they existed, or they didn't exist. You assert
contradictions, therefore everything you say is worthless.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> The problem is we know believers can convince themselves of anything they want
> and usually do. There are so many examples of it that they cannot be taken as
> authorities of any sort. We must examine the physical evidence ourselves.
then go "examine" the fucking inscriptions in the museums, moron.
> Canaanites are found only the books of magic and miracles we call the Old
> Testament.
And the Amarna letters.
Peter T. Daniels
No, just force of habit. But it is kind of fun to point out Dionysus
Exiguus's mistake every so often.
Peter T. Daniels
> Joachim Pense wrote:
> > Am Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:24:20 -0700 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>
> >> Now Herod died in 4 BC, so if Jesus was born in 4 BC, he didn't
> >> acquire any languages at all in Egypt.
>
> > Did you deliberately write BC rather then BCE here?
>
> The difference is?
The former is sectarian ("before Christ"), the latter isn't ("before
the common era").
Agamemnon
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188001162....@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 24, 4:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>
>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
>> Phoenician Sea God. Elyon was also a Phoenician God as was El. In fact
>> all
>> of the seven Gods mentioned in the bible that the so-called Hebrews
>> worshiped were Phoenicians Gods.
>
> script, which writing mentions Jehovah?
Plenty of writing. The Elephantine letters mention Jehovah and the
Phoenician goddess Assura. The Baal Epic mentions Jehovah and Assura and
Astarte who were syncretised by the Jews into Asteroth.
Peter T. Daniels
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Where can we find a Phonecian writing in the so-called paleoHebrew
> > script, which writing mentions Jehovah?
>
> Plenty of writing. The Elephantine letters mention Jehovah and the
> Phoenician goddess Assura. The Baal Epic mentions Jehovah and Assura and
> Astarte who were syncretised by the Jews into Asteroth.
Tyhe Elephantine letters are not written in Old Hebrew script, and
they're not in Phoenician. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you
like the play?.
enough
> mb wrote:
> > On Aug 25, 10:39 pm, Matt Giwer
> > ....
> >> How do these people who left no signs of being other than farmers and goat
> >> herders develop an independent culture or religion or anything of interest?
> > Wrong. Religion is by definition the production of superstitious
> > hillbillies; you cannot expect its ideators to have produced much of
> > interest. Especially so with the three "monotheistic" ones.
>
> Notice the key word INDEPENDENT.
Bull. Of course none of even the backwardest tribes are ever wholly
independent; their superstitions are interrelated. But still, what
these guys developed in three strains is certainly the most
obscurantist form even for religion --why do you continue to mention
culture?
Agamemnon
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1188003854.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 23, 9:16 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> > When was Hebrew supplanted in that region?
>>
>> >> There is no evidence it ever existed as a spoken language nor
>> >> is
>> >> there any
>> >> evidence it existed as a written language prior to the Septuagint. If
>> >> you
>> >> know
>> >> of any, please present it.
>>
>> > being written in a paleoHebrew script. If Hebrew didn't exist as a
>>
>> No, it is actually written in Phoenician script because Jehovah was a
>
>
> (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
> and easily identifiable.
Twaddle. Both scripts are essentially identical. There is less difference
between them than there is between Ionic and Attic scripts.
>
> "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
> letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
> of use in the 6th c. BCE.
It was not Hebrew. It was Eastern Phoenician.
>
>> > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
>> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>>
>> Phoenician.
>
> Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
> coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
> that one known DSS of Leviticus.
>
> The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
> used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
> script) for the other.
More twaddle. Hebrew was invented in Hellenistic times.
Mar...@martinandsue.demon.co.uk
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 8:07 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem is there is no time for a unique Hebrew language to have appeared and disappeared
>
> If Phoenician had time to develop, then Hebrew had time to develop.
> They were the north end and south end of the Canaanite dialect
> continuum:http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew.htm#historysect
> We have only fragments of most of the various Canaanite dialects, of
> the period 1000-500 BCE such as those of Samaria, Galilee, Coastal
> Plain, Ammon, Edom or Moab. However, it would seem that they were
> mutually intelligible[13]. Two dialects, from opposite ends of the
> Canaanite spectrum, have left major literary remains. In the extreme
> north, on the Lebanese coast, was Phoenician[14] and its North African
> Carthaginian offshoot Punic, have left inscriptions[15] dating from
> 10th-1st centuries BCE and 9th C BCE to 2nd CE respectively. This
> tended to be a rapidly developing language very open to foreign
> influences as we would expect for a language of a sea-faring people.
> In the extreme South we have the literary dialect of Jerusalem i.e.
> Biblical Hebrew. Before we leave the other languages, we could point
> out one of the many benefits to the understanding of Hebrew gained
> through the comparative study of Semitic languages. As I said before,
> the Semitic languages are closely related. For example "A survey of
> the first 100 Phoenician words in the dictionary shows that 82 percent
> have the same meaning in Hebrew.
>
> > in addition to no mention of any such thing in any contemporary
> > inscription or writing.
>
> There would obviously be no such mention. Hebrew is a modern name for
> the literary form of a south Canaanite dialect.
I am a mere lurker in this conversation: but I cannot help wondering
whether any light would be thrown on the development of Hebrew by
considering the arguments put forward by a gentleman named Kamal
Salibi in his book "The Bible Came From Arabia"?
His thesis, supported primarily by analysis of place-names, is that OT
history took place not in present-day Palestine, but in what is now
the Asir province of Sa'udi Arabia.
On the face of it, this might offer an opportunity to dispose of
difficulties which have been mentioned, concerning the timescales for
development of Hebrew.
Can I assume that those taking part are aware of this work? I make no
comment as to the validity of its conclusions - I am not qualified to
do so - but the thesis is intriguing, to say the least. However, for
all I know, it may have been debunked since the book's publication in
1985.
MT
mb
...
> whether any light would be thrown on the development of Hebrew by
> considering the arguments put forward by a gentleman named Kamal
> Salibi in his book "The Bible Came From Arabia"?
>
> His thesis, supported primarily by analysis of place-names, is that OT
> history took place not in present-day Palestine, but in what is now
> the Asir province of Sa'udi Arabia.
Exact same question as for the Odyssey: Before you place it in the
Ionian Sea, Southern Italy, Sicily, Tunisia or even the British
Channel or the Baltic Sea, as has been done, you may want to see how
much of the mythical tale has any kind of likelihood.
Mar...@martinandsue.demon.co.uk
I may be misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that questions
regarding the provenance of the Bible, and incidentally of the
language in which it is written, must be considered moot, or
pointless, unless one accepts the historical truth of the document
itself? I'd appreciate clarification of your point.
MT
mb
If no established historical fact, then no place where it could have
happened and no need to check places. As for "provenance" and
language, that of course is a totally different question of philology
and mythopoieia: Guessing the possible limits of the authors'
imagination is not likely to become factual by discussing place names.
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:1188003854.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > No, Phoenician and Hebrew scripts are quite different from each other
> > (they diverged from a common ancestor before either is first attested)
> > and easily identifiable.
>
> Twaddle. Both scripts are essentially identical. There is less difference
> between them than there is between Ionic and Attic scripts.
If you have trouble distinguishing between Ionic and Attic scripts,
then you're not much of a Greek scholar. They don't even have the same
inventory of letters!
> > "Paleo-Hebrew" refers specifically to the revival of the ancient
> > letters in DSS times, not to the earlier Hebrew script that went out
> > of use in the 6th c. BCE.
>
> It was not Hebrew. It was Eastern Phoenician.
_What_ "wasn't Hebrew"? Do you want to put some label other than "Old
Hebrew" on the script used for writing Hebrew between the 10th=11th c.
BCE and the 6th c. BCE? That seems rather silly.
> >> > written language, which language(s) was(were) the so-called
> >> > paleoHebrew script used for?
>
> >> Phoenician.
>
> > Paleo-Hebrew was used only for the Tetragrammaton, for legends on
> > coins struck by some nationalistic factions in the Roman period, and
> > that one known DSS of Leviticus.
>
> > The older Hebrew script was used for Hebrew, the Phoenician script was
> > used for Phoenician, and it's impossible to mistake one (language or
> > script) for the other.
>
> More twaddle. Hebrew was invented in Hellenistic times.
Aggie = Giwer ????
How do you "invent" a language? And make it look strangely similar to
a language that had gone extinct nearly a millennium earlier
(Ugaritic), and that exhibits in its principal collection of writings
an easliy identifiable historical sequence of successive varieties?
> http://www.grecoreport.com/hebrew_is_greek.htm-
I wonder if I'll bother going there for a laugh.
Peter T. Daniels
> I am a mere lurker in this conversation: but I cannot help wondering
> whether any light would be thrown on the development of Hebrew by
> considering the arguments put forward by a gentleman named Kamal
> Salibi in his book "The Bible Came From Arabia"?
>
> His thesis, supported primarily by analysis of place-names, is that OT
> history took place not in present-day Palestine, but in what is now
> the Asir province of Sa'udi Arabia.
>
> On the face of it, this might offer an opportunity to dispose of
> difficulties which have been mentioned, concerning the timescales for
> development of Hebrew.
>
> Can I assume that those taking part are aware of this work? I make no
> comment as to the validity of its conclusions - I am not qualified to
> do so - but the thesis is intriguing, to say the least. However, for
> all I know, it may have been debunked since the book's publication in
> 1985.
I do in fact own a copy of that book (though it's unlikely many
biblical scholars are aware of it), and it is indeed (to use Aggie's
word) utter twaddle, but that has nothing to do with the Hebrew
language. Why do you think it's relevant to the history of Hebrew?
Agamemnon
> On Aug 26, 12:39 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1188001162....@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > Where can we find a Phonecian writing in the so-called paleoHebrew
>> > script, which writing mentions Jehovah?
>>
>> Plenty of writing. The Elephantine letters mention Jehovah and the
>> Phoenician goddess Assura. The Baal Epic mentions Jehovah and Assura and
>> Astarte who were syncretised by the Jews into Asteroth.
>
> Tyhe Elephantine letters are not written in Old Hebrew script, and
That depends on what you decide to call Paleo-Hebrew. You could call Old
High Germanic Paleo-Hebrew but it wouldn't disguise the fact the
Paleo-Hebrew is a nonsense term invented by Historical revisionists that
they could apply to literally anything.
> they're not in Phoenician. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you
> like the play?.
How does it feel being caught and bowled for a duck, schmuck?