Where does it _really_ come from, anyway?
mike3
I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
languages)?
Also, is the term "Krishna" used in modern Indian languages for
"black" as well? Such as the "black" in terms like "Black Sea" and
"black hole"? Languages change, you know, and I'm curious.
John Atkinson
> Hi.
>
> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> languages)?
According to Buck, Sanskrit kr.s.na is cognate with Old Church Slavonic
c^rUnU (Russian cęrnyj -- as in Chernobyl) = black, Old Prussian kirsnan,
Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersę. (= spotted cow), and
Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian sorr@ (= crow). The
proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
[...]
John
John Swindle
Is this also the root of Russian krasnyii (= red)?
Trond Engen
Where did you find the meaning "ashes"? To me and my dictionaries 'harr'
can only be the name of the grayling (Thymallus thymallus). The geminate
r and the vowel of the Norwegian dialect form 'horr' points to Gmc.
*harzu-. Its closest correspondents are Lith. <kar~s^îs> "bream (Abramis
brama)" and <kirs^ly~s> "grayling". And they're all relatives of Krishna.
But there's some reason for caution. There's a Finnish 'harju(s)'
"grayling" that apparently won't fit in as Gmc. loan. Recent work on
loanwords in Finnish might have changed that, though.
--
Trond Engen
- salmonic
Craoi...@gmail.com
> John Atkinson skreiv:
>
>
>
> > mike3 wrote:
>
> >> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes
> >> from, and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But
> >> where does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European
> >> language, it may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from
> >> some non-IE language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old
> >> Indo-European root form be, and what words in other Indo-European
> >> languages would also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in
> >> non-Indian I-E languages)?
>
> > According to Buck, Sanskrit kr.s.na is cognate with Old Church
> > Prussian kirsnan, Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê. (=
> > spotted cow), and Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian
> > sorr@ (= crow). The proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
>
> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"? To me and my dictionaries 'harr'
> can only be the name of the grayling (Thymallus thymallus). The geminate
> r and the vowel of the Norwegian dialect form 'horr' points to Gmc.
> *harzu-. Its closest correspondents are Lith. <kar~s^îs> "bream (Abramis
> brama)" and <kirs^ly~s> "grayling". And they're all relatives of Krishna.
>
> But there's some reason for caution. There's a Finnish 'harju(s)'
> "grayling" that apparently won't fit in as Gmc. loan. Recent work on
> loanwords in Finnish might have changed that, though.
Harjus is indeed the word for grayling, along with the more recent
Swedish loanword harri. I guess that for many Finns the word seems
related to harja "brush; crest" or harju "ridge, esker, horst" - the
magnificent dorsal spine being the brush or the crest. If the name of
the fish is not etymologically related to these words, it might have
been influenced by folk etymology.
John Atkinson
> John Atkinson skreiv:
>
>> mike3 wrote:
>>
>>> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes
>>> from, and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But
>>> where does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European
>>> language, it may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from
>>> some non-IE language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old
>>> Indo-European root form be, and what words in other Indo-European
>>> languages would also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in
>>> non-Indian I-E languages)?
>>
>> According to Buck, Sanskrit kr.s.na is cognate with Old Church
>> Prussian kirsnan, Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersę. (=
>> spotted cow), and Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian
>> sorr@ (= crow). The proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
>
> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"?
Like I said, I was quoting Buck's "Dictionary of selected synonyms in the
principal IE languages". I didn't bother to check anywhere else. Buck
gives as reference "A. Walde, Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der indogermanischen
Sprachen, herausgegeben und bearbeitet von J Pokorny".
>To me and my dictionaries
> 'harr' can only be the name of the grayling (Thymallus thymallus).
My little Norwegian and Swedish dictionaries don't have it at all.
John.
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen wrote:
>
>> John Atkinson skreiv:
>>
>>> According to Buck, [...], Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes),
>>> [...].
>>
>> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"?
>
> Like I said, I was quoting Buck's "Dictionary of selected synonyms in
> the principal IE languages".
Sorry, can't read.
--
Trond Engen
- i sekk og aske
John Atkinson
> John Atkinson skreiv:
>
>> Trond Engen wrote:
>>
>>> John Atkinson skreiv:
>>>
>>>> According to Buck, [...], Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes),
>>>> [...].
>>>
>>> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"?
>>
>> Like I said, I was quoting Buck's "Dictionary of selected synonyms in
>> the principal IE languages".
>
> Sorry, can't read.
For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark". Is this the same
word as modern harr?
John.
John Atkinson
No, krasnyii comes from krasa, beauty (cf Polish kras, colour, especially
red colour, but also beauty) ; there's also Lithuanian kas^tas, hot and
kurti, to heat., but there don't seem to be any cognates outside
Balto-Slavic.
John.
anal...@hotmail.com
> mike3 wrote:
> > Hi.
>
> > I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> > and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> > does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> > may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> > language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> > root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> > also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> > languages)?
>
> According to Buck, Sanskrit kr.s.na is cognate with Old Church Slavonic
> Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê. (= spotted cow), and
> Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian sorr@ (= crow).
>The
> proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
You forgot to add fiction after PIE.
As usual - the fictional form is obtained by simple operations on the
Sanskrit form
= change an a or two to e or o, change a visarga or vowel lengthening
at the end to s, introduce the fictional "labio-velar" in place of a
sanskrit velar etc. I am at least glad that Krishna wasn't declared
to have had "laryngeals" in PIE.
krishna (black and also the God - although the God's name is usually
simplified to Kishan) is Hindi also (literary, poetic, religious
registers), but the everyday word for black is kAlA (masc.).
Interestingly, Tamil has the root karu (black).
Krishna has obviously spread to the Slavic area from India.
> [...]
>
> John
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sep 20, 4:23 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > mike3 wrote:
> > > Hi.
>
> > > I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> > > and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> > > does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> > > may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> > > language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> > > root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> > > also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> > > languages)?
>
> > According to Buck, Sanskrit kr.s.na is cognate with Old Church Slavonic
> > c^rUnU (Russian cêrnyj -- as in Chernobyl) = black, Old Prussian kirsnan,
> > Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê. (= spotted cow), and
> > Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian sorr@ (= crow).
> >The
> > proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
>
> You forgot to add fiction after PIE.
>
> As usual - the fictional form is obtained by simple operations on the
> Sanskrit form
> = change an a or two to e or o, change a visarga or vowel lengthening
> at the end to s, introduce the fictional "labio-velar" in place of a
> sanskrit velar etc.
Hey idiot, How do you know _which_ "a or two" to "change to e or o"?
How do you know whether to use e or o?
Because, idiot, the vowels are preserved in THE OTHER IE languages
even though they merged in Skt. (Greek preserves them best.)
How do you know _which_ "visarga or vowel lengthening" to "change to
s"?
Because, idiot, the s's are preserved in other IE languages. Including
its very close relative Avestan.
You could even say Sanskrit has _degenerated_ in these two respects.
Trond Engen
No. ON <hár> > No. <hå> with regular development. The final r is the
masculine case ending. This word is used for the cute little sharks
living in our waters (roughly like English 'dogfish', I think). It makes
a doublet with <hai>, a back-borrowing from Dutch <haai>, used for the
big hungry things around you.
The forms are said to reflect Gmc. *hánha- "peg, stick" < IE *k'ónko-,
which is found in its original sense in Celtic and Indic. This would
seem to mean that it was first used for the spiny or peaked dogfish
(Squalus acanthias), Norw. <pigghå>.
But then again, since the word is restricted to NGmc., the
reconstruction may be uncertain. Like many fish names, I think.
--
Trond Engen
- hai hå!
Brian M. Scott
<john...@bigpond.com> wrote in
<news:qc6Bk.38008$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
sci.lang:
> Trond Engen wrote:
>> John Atkinson skreiv:
>>> Trond Engen wrote:
>>>> John Atkinson skreiv:
>> Sorry, can't read.
No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that
the <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well
impossible.
There is a formally identical <hár> 'thole, rowlock' that De
Vries and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from
*hanha- (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV). (The plural of the
'rowlock' word is <háir>, which suggests an i- or u-stem,
and the modern Ic. and Far. forms of the 'shark' word are
<háfur> and <hávur>; I presume that this is the basis for
DV's reconstruction.) Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
<ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
*k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates.
DV says that Germ. <Hai> 'shark' is from the ON word via Du.
<haai>; he also takes Finn. <kanki> 'lever' and <hanka>
'thole-pin' to be loans.
Brian
anal...@hotmail.com
<bilious cluelessness>.
Peteyboy - your contributions have degenerated to sad levels.
Waiting for adult responses.
Trond Engen
> On Sep 20, 10:34 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> <bilious cluelessness>.
Bilious, perhaps, but you do seem to need help with digestion. Clueless,
no, and you wouldn't know a clue if it came up with your dinner.
> Peteyboy - your contributions have degenerated to sad levels.
>
> Waiting for adult responses.
No need to. Peter made all the relevant points. Also the extralinguistic
ones.
--
Trond Engen
- bilinguist
Harlan Messinger
In other words, you didn't understand what he told you (which falsify
your version of history).
anal...@hotmail.com
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Nope. It was Peteyboy who recited the unpoven assumptions of standard
comp ling 101 without understanding my point that European IE
languages can be obtained by vandalizing sanksirt in two stages - and
I outlined the first stage which went over petey's head. There is
another way to properly lay out the relationship - by reconstructing
Protoprakirt from which Sanskrit was derived through Sanskritization.
All relationships between European IE languages and Sanskirt can only
be understood via Protoprakrit and direct borrowings from Sanskrit
through contact for prestige forms.
Joachim Pense
>
> krishna (black and also the God - although the God's name is usually
> simplified to Kishan) is Hindi also (literary, poetic, religious
> registers), but the everyday word for black is kAlA (masc.).
> Interestingly, Tamil has the root karu (black).
>
> Krishna has obviously spread to the Slavic area from India.
>
Everyone knows that Krishna is a malapropism of Christian.
Joachim
anal...@hotmail.com
A correction: The above is applicable only to the IE words and IE
grammatical forms (for which the rule is even simpler - IE grammar is
Sanskrit grammar which is reflected in variously vandalized forms in
Eurpean IE languages) in the IE European languages.
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen wrote:
>> John Atkinson skreiv:
>>
>>> According to Buck, [...] Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes),
>>> [...].
>>
>> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"?
>
> Like I said, I was quoting Buck's "Dictionary of selected synonyms in
> the principal IE languages". I didn't bother to check anywhere
> else. Buck gives as reference "A. Walde, Vergleichendes Wörterbuch
> der indogermanischen Sprachen, herausgegeben und bearbeitet von J
> Pokorny".
>
>> To me and my dictionaries
>> 'harr' can only be the name of the grayling (Thymallus thymallus).
>
> My little Norwegian and Swedish dictionaries don't have it at all.
Using the brilliant translation tool, the list of other languages in
Wikipedia, I think I know what happened. Buck simply read the wrong
dictionary entry. The German word for harr/grayling/kiršlys is 'Äsche'.
It is telling, though, that its name is s derivation of 'Asche'. Also
English 'grayling' is a straightforward colour naming, as is French
'ombre' < Lat. 'umbra'.
Italian has 'temolo' < Lat. <tymallus> < Gk. <thýmallos>
(http://www.etimo.it/). In Slavic languages it's 'lipan' (with
variations), except in Ukrainian, where it's called <харіус>! What can
we make of that? Somehow I can't imagine current Ukrainian preferring a
Soviet era loan from Estonian.
--
Trond Engen
- harr & Krishna
Peter T. Daniels
If that were the case, then IE studies would have simply stopped in
1815 after Franz Bopp published his first book.
Why don't you read it, and find out why it turned out not to be an
adequate account of the Indo-European languages?
Harlan Messinger
> On Sep 20, 1:10 pm, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sep 20, 10:34 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> <bilious cluelessness>.
>>> Peteyboy - your contributions have degenerated to sad levels.
>>> Waiting for adult responses.
>> In other words, you didn't understand what he told you (which falsify
>> your version of history).
>
> Nope. It was Peteyboy who recited the unpoven assumptions of standard
> comp ling 101 without understanding my point that European IE
> languages can be obtained by vandalizing sanksirt in two stages
I understand that it's your *point*. And he explained why your *point*
cannot be *correct*.
Trond Engen
> [...] European IE languages can be obtained by vandalizing sanksirt
> in two stages - and I outlined the first stage [...]
Metathesis?
--
Trond Engen
- with a meta-thesis
mike3
Then I'll just remove the "idiot" snipes and then you should not have
a problem. Here's his argument, without the snipes:
---
Hey. How do you know _which_ "a or two" to "change to e or o"?
How do you know whether to use e or o?
Because, the vowels are preserved in THE OTHER IE languages
even though they merged in Skt. (Greek preserves them best.)
How do you know _which_ "visarga or vowel lengthening" to "change to
s"?
Because, the s's are preserved in other IE languages. Including
its very close relative Avestan.
You could even say Sanskrit has _degenerated_ in these two respects.
---
If you STILL cannot refute it then you should concede that you have
been
debunked.
mike3
Exactly!
anal...@hotmail.com
Whats there to refute? What he designates as preservations and
innovations are of course dependent on the original forms which can
only be theorized about. My theory (coming to a bookstore near you
one of these days) is much better than standard PIE boilerplate and
always has the Sanskrit form as orginal or more euphonic and/or
structured than the orginal (ProtoPrakrit).
mike3
> structured than the orginal (ProtoPrakrit).
Dispute his critique. Demolish his CRITIQUE.
And as for the 2 lines highlighed: why does this have to be so? What
_rule_
or _law_ requires that languages evolve from complex/structured to
simpler/
unstructured over time? What methods do you use to evidence this
_law_?
anal...@hotmail.com
Since his critique consists of unproven/unprovable (short of
attestation of the so called PIE) assertions such as "Sanskrit merged
PIE e a o to a" i don't know what I have to do to dispute it. If you
are asking for a refutation of things like the law of palatals, you
have to wait for my book ( i have given some hints in earlier posts).
>
> And as for the 2 lines highlighed: why does this have to be so? What
> _rule_
> or _law_ requires that languages evolve from complex/structured to
> simpler/
> unstructured over time? What methods do you use to evidence this
> _law_?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is no such law. It just so happens that Sanskrit arose through
euphonization and structuring of a protolanguage while all the other
IE languages descended through unconcious sound changes.
mike3
The _original_ Sanskrit language came about through unconscious
language
evolution.
Tapani Salminen
> Italian has 'temolo' < Lat. <tymallus> < Gk. <thýmallos>
> (http://www.etimo.it/). In Slavic languages it's 'lipan' (with
> variations), except in Ukrainian, where it's called <харіус>! What can
> we make of that? Somehow I can't imagine current Ukrainian preferring a
> Soviet era loan from Estonian.
Russian dialects have both xarius and lipan for grayling (Thymallus).
The standard word is xarius < Finnic harjus (long before the Soviet
era).
Tapani Salminen
Craoi...@gmail.com
> My theory (coming to a bookstore near you
> one of these days) is much better than standard PIE boilerplate
Because you say so?
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen wrote:
>
>> In Slavic languages it's 'lipan' (with variations), except in
>> Ukrainian, where it's called <харіус>! What can we make of that?
>> Somehow I can't imagine current Ukrainian preferring a Soviet era
>> loan from Estonian.
>
> Russian dialects have both xarius and lipan for grayling (Thymallus).
> The standard word is xarius < Finnic harjus (long before the Soviet
> era).
I should have guessed but didn't expect a Finnic loan to have entered
dialects that far south, so I thought it would be from the standard
terminology of Russian biology. Soviet era was stupid -- it would rather
have happened when the bulk of Russian scholarship was seated in
St.Petersburg.
I see that there's also a Russian article
(<http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хариус>), but as far as I can tell with
my non-existent Slavic there's no list of other names neither there nor
in the Ukrainian one.
--
Trond Engen
- out fishing
Trond Engen
> I should have guessed but didn't expect a Finnic loan to have entered
> dialects that far south, so I thought it would be from the standard
> terminology of Russian biology.
I seem to have made my reasoning sound rational. It wasn't. I vaguely
thought it could be from Russian terminology, but then I short-circuited
on the implications of the lacking Russian name.
--
Trond Engen
- bloody amateur
Peter T. Daniels
There's one slight difference between the standard view and your
"euphony" view. The standard view _explains_ the history. Yours
doesn't.
> > And as for the 2 lines highlighed: why does this have to be so? What
> > _rule_
> > or _law_ requires that languages evolve from complex/structured to
> > simpler/
> > unstructured over time? What methods do you use to evidence this
> > _law_?-
> There is no such law. It just so happens that Sanskrit arose through
> euphonization and structuring of a protolanguage while all the other
> IE languages descended through unconcious sound changes.-
And the reason that Sanskrit differs from all other human languages
would be ...?
Craoi...@gmail.com
The reason is, of course, that Sanskrit isn't a human language. In the
Hindutva view, it is a superhuman, divine language.
DKleinecke
I thought from Analyst's posts that the Hindutva (I don't actually
know that Analyst speaks for the Hindutva) position is that Sanskrit
was created by the Vedic sages using the raw material in the inferior
language(s) they spoke. Are you telling me that it was the gods that
put it together?
Heinlein used vaguely similar idea in "Gulf". He didn't have gods, of
course, just supermen. But perhaps in Hindutva nomenclature one of
Heinlein's supermen would be a god.
Franz Gnaedinger
> Hi.
>
> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> languages)?
>
> Also, is the term "Krishna" used in modern Indian languages for
> "black" as well? Such as the "black" in terms like "Black Sea" and
> "black hole"? Languages change, you know, and I'm curious.
Krishna is a syncretic personality, a prince
and founder of a religion combined with a god
of pastoralism - Krishna as lover of the cow herd
girls he created himself. I see the oldest origin
of the pastoral god in the Magdalenian divine hind
CER -: I -: (produce the sound given as -: by
touching both lips with the tip of the tongue). Her
picture is seen in the Altamira cave, northern Spain,
a beautiful hind, three meters long, licking the horns
of a small bull under her head and neck:
www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG
The divine hind licked moon bulls into life, thus
creating time, lunations, periods of 30 29 30 29 30
29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days or nights - the many bulls
in this cave, shown in compact form, rounded, so
as to come as close as possible to the shape of
the moon. Magdalenian CER means stag, French
cerf, but also hind, shaman and shamaness. The
name is present in Cernunnos, Celtic god of animals
wearing stag horns. CER -: I -: accounts for English
herd German Herde. The divine hind who licked moon
bulls into life had a counterpart in the divine stag who
protected the sun upon entering and leaving the
Underworld KAL. The divine stags can be seen in
the rotunda of the Lascaux cave, before the red mare,
sun horse of the early morning of the summer solstice,
on her side the white bull. On the sky, the antlers of
the divine stag are present in Scorpio and Sagittarius,
while the divine hind woman is present in Orion, and
the moon bulls, waiting to go on their heavenly mission,
are present in Aldebaran of Taurus. Now the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair was a sister of CER -: I -:
by the name of PIS NOS meaning water in motion
(pis) mind (nos), referring to the amniotic water and
to the rain irrigating meadows and fields and filling
river beds, a compound surviving in Venus and penis
and Vishnu, bringer of the monsoon, and Vishnu's
eight avataar is the love god Krishna. The meaning
of Black One comes from the divine stag CER
guarding the entrance to and exit from the Underworld
which was passed by the fiery sun. This guard of
the Underworld survived in the Greek hellhound
Ker-beros, a dangerous hound covered in flames,
while the lovely divine hind woman survived in the
cow-eyed goddes Her-a. The meanings of red and
black and ashes come from CER as guard of the
fiery entrance to and exit of the Underworld. For more
infomation see my Vision of the Paleolithic Sky. Here
you are with a Paleolithic relief of the three goddesses,
the goddess of the Underworld, the gooddess of
the Summer Triangle PIS NOS, and the divine hind
woman CER -: I -: www.seshat.ch/home/anglin.GIF
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sep 20, 7:21 am, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi.
>
> > I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> > and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> > does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> > may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> > language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> > root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> > also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> > languages)?
>
> > Also, is the term "Krishna" used in modern Indian languages for
> > "black" as well? Such as the "black" in terms like "Black Sea" and
> > "black hole"? Languages change, you know, and I'm curious.
>
> Krishna is a syncretic personality, a prince
See? Not a single datum in the entire paragraph, and no hint of how
"CER" becomes "Krishna" or any of the other cognate words.
> and founder of a religion combined with a god
> of pastoralism - Krishna as lover of the cow herd
> girls he created himself. I see the oldest origin
> of the pastoral god in the Magdalenian divine hind
> CER -: I -: (produce the sound given as -: by
> touching both lips with the tip of the tongue). Her
So you salute your goddess with a "raspberry." How devoted.
> picture is seen in the Altamira cave, northern Spain,
> a beautiful hind, three meters long, licking the horns
> of a small bull under her head and neck:www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG
> The divine hind licked moon bulls into life, thus
> creating time, lunations, periods of 30 29 30 29 30
> 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days or nights - the many bulls
> in this cave, shown in compact form, rounded, so
> as to come as close as possible to the shape of
> the moon. Magdalenian CER means stag, French
But "Krishna" (and the Slavic cognates) means 'black'.
> cerf, but also hind, shaman and shamaness. The
> name is present in Cernunnos, Celtic god of animals
> wearing stag horns. CER -: I -: accounts for English
> herd German Herde. The divine hind who licked moon
How does it "account for" them?
Does it also "account for" English heart, German Herz?
For English hart?
Not the slightest hint of how any of those forms derives from any of
those forms, or why they're different in different languages.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Sep 22, 2:36 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Sep 21, 3:16 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 20, 11:33 pm, analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > And the reason that Sanskrit differs from all other human languages
> > > would be ...?
>
> > The reason is, of course, that Sanskrit isn't a human language. In the
> > Hindutva view, it is a superhuman, divine language.
>
> I thought from Analyst's posts that the Hindutva (I don't actually
> know that Analyst speaks for the Hindutva) position is that Sanskrit
> was created by the Vedic sages using the raw material in the inferior
> language(s) they spoke. Are you telling me that it was the gods that
> put it together?
The Hindutva view seems to be that Hindus are superior to us white
honks and kirastanis anyway, so if not divine, then superhuman, or at
the very least, super-non-Hindu.
paul....@gmail.com
After having a look (one look, two Lux) at the article it seems to
me that Хариус is a specific type of losos. Well the text says
it's a Losos. In other (non-Rus/Ukr) Slavic languages it would
probably be called just losos, with some qualifying adjective(s),
if necessary.
> --
> Trond Engen
> - out fishing
pjk
salmon fishing
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> See? Not a single datum in the entire paragraph, and no hint of how
> "CER" becomes "Krishna" or any of the other cognate words.
You answer when you just read the first line. Why don't
you read the whole reply and answer then? One could
think you got the attention span of the MTV generation,
but you are too old for being part of that generation.
The Magdalenian lasted from roughly 18 000 to 12 000
BP, the paintings in the Lascaux cave are from this
period, the oldest ones about 18,000 years old, many
paintings have been painted again, when the colors of
a first painting faded away -- they restored their works
of art as the Sistine chapel was restored in our days,
bringing back the former glory in the most authentic
way. The divine stag CER is seen before the red mare
and the white bull by her side, while the divine hind
woman is present ex negativo between the pair of
ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery.
I said this many times before and can't repeat all of
it in one single message, not even for your Highness.
> So you salute your goddess with a "raspberry." How devoted.
???
> But "Krishna" (and the Slavic cognates) means 'black'.
Read my message before replying. The divine stag
guarded the entrance to and exit from the Underworld
that was passed by the sun horse, he survived in
Kerberos, the Greek hellhound covered in flames,
and the meanings of red and black and ashes
come from this aspect: guardian of the fiery entrance
to and exit from the Underworld. As I explained in my
message (further down).
> How does it "account for" them?
See Mallory and Adams 2006. I said it several times,
but you brag about not reading my messages.
> Does it also "account for" English heart, German Herz?
>
> For English hart?
No, the origin of this word is COR for the way
the young behave. I also talked a lot about this
word, in the very long discussion about the
Coruscean ocean started and kept alive by
the same Mike 3 who started this here discussion.
> Not the slightest hint of how any of those forms derives from any of
> those forms, or why they're different in different languages.
I explained it in former threads, for example in the
one on 'piss' that was started by Douglas G. Kilday.
But you always brag about not reading my messages.
Peter T. Daniels
When you, _just once_, provide a rigorous derivation of _any_ of your
"etymologies," comparable to those provided by Indo-Europeanists over
the past 175 years, showing step by step and regularity by regularity
exactly how the attested data emerge from your constructions, _then_
they will be considered seriously.
Adam Funk
> On Sep 23, 2:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> So you salute your goddess with a "raspberry." How devoted.
>
> ???
I think he thinks your -: symbol looks like a raspberry (or
sticking-tongue-out) emoticon, but
:P :p :-P :-p
are the only ones I've seen.
--
Usenet is a cesspool, a dung heap. [Patrick A. Townson]
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> When you, _just once_, provide a rigorous derivation of _any_ of your
> "etymologies," comparable to those provided by Indo-Europeanists over
> the past 175 years, showing step by step and regularity by regularity
> exactly how the attested data emerge from your constructions, _then_
> they will be considered seriously.
I began my Magdalenian experiment in early 2005,
since then I perform the whole experiment online,
in open daylight, for everyone to see, first in a more
intuitive way, then establishing my four Magdalenian
laws, then mining words using my four laws, always
and forever explaining every move and each and
every idea, and answering all questions, developing
every aspect in separate threads, then giving a concise
version in my etymological thread, and keeping the
latter thread alive, so that it can be consulted again.
But you brag about not reading my messages, now
don't expect that I repeat them all for you. Anyway,
I do not write for you, I write for hopeful young readers
with an open mind, and with enough background
in the sciences to evaluate my opinions on their own.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Anyway,
> I do not write for you, I write for hopeful young readers
> with an open mind, and with enough background
> in the sciences to evaluate my opinions on their own.
Poor, delusional Franz. Poor, poor delusional Franz. I do sometimes
almost pity you. If only you weren't such a detestable and arrogant
person.
Peter T. Daniels
Hopefully, "hopeful young readers" are familiar with scientific
procedure and will recognize your fantasies for fantasies. When you
start doing science, you will receive serious attention.
Peter T. Daniels
> On 2008-09-24, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
> > On Sep 23, 2:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> So you salute your goddess with a "raspberry." How devoted.
>
> > ???
>
> I think he thinks your -: symbol looks like a raspberry (or
> sticking-tongue-out) emoticon, but
>
> :P :p :-P :-p
>
> are the only ones I've seen.
I don't know what any of that refers to. He provided a phonetic
description of a "raspberry" or "bronx cheer" (protruding tongue
touching both lips).
Harlan Messinger
All these people here with enough background in the sciences to evaluate
your opinions are doing so, and then you tell them that they're not who
you're writing for. The fallacy in your thinking is that your concept of
"open mind", i.e., someone who will agree with you, is mutually
exclusive with having "enough background in the sciences to evaluate"
your opinion.
Trond Engen
> On Sep 21, 10:19 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> Tapani Salminen skreiv:
>>
>>> Trond Engen wrote:
>>>
>>>> In Slavic languages it's 'lipan' (with variations), except in
>>>> Ukrainian, where it's called <харіус>! What can we make of that?
>>>> Somehow I can't imagine current Ukrainian preferring a Soviet era
>>>> loan from Estonian.
>>>
>>> Russian dialects have both xarius and lipan for grayling
>>> (Thymallus). The standard word is xarius < Finnic harjus (long
>>> before the Soviet era).
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> I see that there's also a Russian article
>> (<http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хариус>), but as far as I can tell
>> with my non-existent Slavic there's no list of other names neither
>> there nor in the Ukrainian one.
>
> After having a look (one look, two Lux) at the article it seems to
> me that Хариус is a specific type of losos. Well the text says
> it's a Losos. In other (non-Rus/Ukr) Slavic languages it would
> probably be called just losos, with some qualifying adjective(s),
> if necessary.
I wouldn't think so. Although related, grayling and salmon are different
in appearance, meat quality, life cycle, catching season. More so than
are salmon and trout, both of which belong to the genus Salmo, or either
of these and many species of the genus Salvelinus. Doesn't the name
'lipan' sound native to a native speaker?
>> --
>> Trond Engen
>> - out fishing
>
> pjk
> salmon fishing
--
Trond Engen
- never caught anything but salmonella
Adam Funk
Oh! I thought you were joking about the -: symbol.
Maybe there's a good explanation for why what was originally a sound
of respect has since the Ice Age gone completely the other way.
--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Oh! I thought you were joking about the -: symbol.
>
> Maybe there's a good explanation for why what was originally a sound
> of respect has since the Ice Age gone completely the other way.
The past is another country: they do things differently there
(from a novel whose title and author I don't remember).
My Magdalenian experiment led me to several words
that were too close together and required a new phoneme
for distinction. One is the click of the tongue I give as arc )
curve your tongue, let the tip of your tongue glide along
the palate, and let your tongue smack into its wet bed ...
With a little exercise (I went on a walk in the woods for
exercising this special sound) you can produce a rather
loud click. The other special sound is the lip lick given as
-: touch both lips with the tip of your tongue. Licking the
lips must once have been a way of indicating love. It still is
a sign of desire, although it has become rather obscene
in our days. But you are still alllowed a lip lick as indication
of appetite: this apple tart looks so very delicious, I'd like
to have a piece ... The walls of the Altamira cave in northern
Spain are covered with bulls, but by far the largest animal
is a beautiful hind, some three meters long, and she is
licking the horns of a small bull under her head and neck:
www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG (which also answers
your question about a website of mine). I identified this
hind with the divine hind or hind woman CER -: I -:
The second word -: I -: has many derivatives, among
them Greek lilazo 'I desire', Ugaritic dd 'beloved',
Phoenician Dido 'loved one', German Liebe English
love, German Leben English life, then of course also lip,
and Latin bibo 'I drink', thirst being a powerful desire.
The divine hind CER -: I -: is licking moon bulls into life,
thus creating time, lunations, periods of 30 29 30 29 30
29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days or nights. Her counterpart
was the divine stag CER KOS who protected the entrance
to and exit from the Underworld passed by the fiery sun
horse during night. Now when Mike 3 asked about the
real meaning of Krishna, I was intrigued by the parallels
to the divine hind and divine stag of Magdalenian times:
Krishna created the cow herd girls, as the divine hind
created the moon bulls, and his name means black one,
as one of several derivatives of PIE *ker 'burn', linking
him to the fire associated with the divine stag.
Gestaltung, Umgestaltung,
Des ewigen Sinnes ewige Unterhaltung
Goethe wrote, meaning about: Creation, re-creation,
Eternal entertainment of the eternal spirit ... You can see
this principle at work everywhere, also in religion: so many
deities have disappeared, but their features emerged
again in new ones ...
Adam Funk
> Goethe wrote, meaning about: Creation, re-creation,
> Eternal entertainment of the eternal spirit ... You can see
> this principle at work everywhere, also in religion: so many
> deities have disappeared, but their features emerged
> again in new ones ...
Are you a Jungian?
Either way, you might be interested in Gaskell's _Dictionary of
Scripture and Myth_.
--
I put bomb in squirrel's briefcase and who gets blown up? Me!
lorad
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:23:09 GMT, "John Atkinson"
>
> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >mike3 wrote:
> >> Hi.
>
> >> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> >> and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> >> does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> >> may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> >> language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> >> root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> >> also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> >> languages)?
>
> >c^rUnU (Russian cêrnyj -- as in Chernobyl) = black, Old Prussian kirsnan,
> >Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê. (= spotted cow), and
> >Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian sorr@ (= crow). The
> >proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
>
> >[...]
>
> Is this also the root of Russian krasnyii (= red)?
Yes.. but Russian inherits it from Baltic.
Baltic (Latvian): 'krasniiga' (colorful) 'krasa' (color)
Krishna was colorful.
lorad
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:41:58 GMT, John Atkinson
> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote in
> <news:qc6Bk.38008$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
> sci.lang:
>
> > Trond Engen wrote:
> >> John Atkinson skreiv:
> >>> Trond Engen wrote:
> >>>> John Atkinson skreiv:
> >>>>> According to Buck, [...], Swedish and Norwegian harr
> >>>>> (= ashes), [...].
> >>>> Where did you find the meaning "ashes"?
> >>> Like I said, I was quoting Buck's "Dictionary of
> >>> selected synonyms in the principal IE languages".
> >> Sorry, can't read.
> > For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark".
> > Is this the same word as modern harr?
>
> No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that
> the <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well
> impossible.
>
> There is a formally identical <hár> 'thole, rowlock' that De
> Vries and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from
> *hanha- (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV). (The plural of the
> 'rowlock' word is <háir>, which suggests an i- or u-stem,
> and the modern Ic. and Far. forms of the 'shark' word are
> <háfur> and <hávur>; I presume that this is the basis for
> DV's reconstruction.) Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
> word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
> <ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
> scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
> *k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates.
>
> DV says that Germ. <Hai> 'shark' is from the ON word via Du.
> <haai>; he also takes Finn. <kanki> 'lever' and <hanka>
> 'thole-pin' to be loans.
>
> Brian
'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:b3560d6a-8c93-46d9...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Sep 20, 9:19 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:41:58 GMT, John Atkinson
>> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote in
>> <news:qc6Bk.38008$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
>> sci.lang:
[...]
>>> For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark".
>>> Is this the same word as modern harr?
>> No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that
>> the <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well
>> impossible.
>> There is a formally identical <hár> 'thole, rowlock' that De
>> Vries and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from
>> *hanha- (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV). (The plural of the
>> 'rowlock' word is <háir>, which suggests an i- or u-stem,
>> and the modern Ic. and Far. forms of the 'shark' word are
>> <háfur> and <hávur>; I presume that this is the basis for
>> DV's reconstruction.) Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
>> word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
>> <ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
>> scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
>> *k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates.
>> DV says that Germ. <Hai> 'shark' is from the ON word via Du.
>> <haai>; he also takes Finn. <kanki> 'lever' and <hanka>
>> 'thole-pin' to be loans.
> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
So? No word for 'oar' is under discussion.
> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone
described as Celtic.
> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as
well.
John Atkinson
> On Sep 20, 1:51 am, John Swindle <jcswin...@msn.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:23:09 GMT, "John Atkinson"
>>
>> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> mike3 wrote:
>>>> Hi.
>>
>>>> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes
>>>> from, and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black".
>>>> But where does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European
>>>> language, it may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing
>>>> from some non-IE language) an Indo-European root form. What might
>>>> the old Indo-European root form be, and what words in other
>>>> Indo-European languages would also come from it (i.e. cognates of
>>>> "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E languages)?
>>
>>> Slavonic c^rUnU (Russian cêrnyj -- as in Chernobyl) = black, Old
>>> Prussian kirsnan, Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê.
>>> (= spotted cow), and Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes), Albanian
>>> sorr@ (= crow). The proto-Indo-European was k^wr.snos.
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> Is this also the root of Russian krasnyii (= red)?
>
> Yes.. but Russian inherits it from Baltic.
No, and no. Both Slavic and Baltic inherit "krasa" from their common
ancestor.
> Baltic (Latvian): 'krasniiga' (colorful) 'krasa' (color)
Yep.
> Krishna was colorful.
No he wasn't. He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
other representations, sometimes black. And indeed, the meaning of the
Sanskrit word kṛṣṇa includes "dark" or "dark-blue" as well as "black".
John.
Trond Engen
> lorad:
>
>> Brian M. Scott:
>>
>>> John Atkinson:
>>>
>>>> For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark".
>>>> Is this the same word as modern harr?
>>>
>>> No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that the
>>> <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well impossible.
>>>
>>> There is a formally identical <hár> 'thole, rowlock' that De Vries
>>> and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from *hanha-
>>> (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV). (The plural of the 'rowlock' word is
>>> <háir>, which suggests an i- or u-stem, and the modern Ic. and Far.
>>> forms of the 'shark' word are <háfur> and <hávur>; I presume that
>>> this is the basis for DV's reconstruction.) Pokorny (p.523)
>>> assigns the 'thole' word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence
>>> also Goth. <ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
>>> scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as *k'o(n)kh-
>>> in discussing the Celtic cognates.
>>>
>>> DV says that Germ. <Hai> 'shark' is from the ON word via Du.
>>> <haai>; he also takes Finn. <kanki> 'lever' and <hanka> 'thole-pin'
>>> to be loans.
>>
>> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
>
> So? No word for 'oar' is under discussion.
And, anyway, even if my books don't tell I'll bet my trousers it's a
loan of Germanic *airo:- f., perhaps by way of Finnic.
>> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
>
> So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone described as
> Celtic.
If it belongs here at all, which I doubt, it's a loan. Somebody soon
will have to tell lorad that Latvian is a satem language.
>> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
>
> It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
>
>> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
>> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
>
> Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as well.
Predicting the answer to that, I'll add that the way of the loans is
obvious from internal variation in Germanic.
--
Trond Engen
- kan lorad ro utan åror?
lorad
> On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:22:10 -0700 (PDT), lorad
> <news:b3560d6a-8c93-46d9...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> > On Sep 20, 9:19 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:41:58 GMT, John Atkinson
> >> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote in
> >> <news:qc6Bk.38008$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
> >> sci.lang:
>
> >> Vries and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from
> >> *hanha- (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV). (The plural of the
> >> 'rowlock' word is <háir>, which suggests an i- or u-stem,
> >> and the modern Ic. and Far. forms of the 'shark' word are
> >> <háfur> and <hávur>; I presume that this is the basis for
> >> DV's reconstruction.) Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
> >> word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
> >> <ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
> >> scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
> >> *k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates.
> >> DV says that Germ. <Hai> 'shark' is from the ON word via Du.
> >> <haai>; he also takes Finn. <kanki> 'lever' and <hanka>
> >> 'thole-pin' to be loans.
> > 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
>
> So? No word for 'oar' is under discussion.
Where are your glasses?
You said:
"There is a formally identical <hár> 'thole, rowlock' that De
Vries and Koebler take to be ultimately the same word, from
*hanha- (Koebler) or *hanhu (DV)."
> > 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
>
> So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone
> described as Celtic.
Try again. You wrote:
"Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
<ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
*k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates."
What is it.. some form of convenient memory lapse?
> > And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
>
> It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
For the third time.. with the usual preamble and:
> For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark".
> Is this the same word as modern harr?
"No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that
the <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well
impossible."
> > Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
> > ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
>
> Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as
> well.
And this time you are seeing things that aren't there.
Do you have any substantiation for your worthless parochial
negativity?
lorad
???
Black or Blue (as he has been described also) are decided 'colorful'.
Don't you think?
>He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
> other representations, sometimes black.
Thank you for contradicting yourself, and proving my point.
I should have just let you do my work for me.. mucho gracias.
> And indeed, the meaning of the
> Sanskrit word kṛṣṇa includes "dark" or "dark-blue" as well as "black".
>
> John.
Thanks John. Again many thanks.
lorad
> > lorad:
> >
> > 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
> >
> And, anyway, even if my books don't tell I'll bet my trousers it's a
> loan of Germanic *airo:- f., perhaps by way of Finnic.
Well.. hand your trousers to someone. Not me.
Your baseless assertion isn't worth anything without substantiation.
You actually posit an unattested (non-existant) constructed word
having been derived from Finnic (which did not exist at the time in
question) - which is Ugric - as having been the source of an IE word
(which already existed in Baltic)???
Your mental capabilities are completely scary.
> >> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
> >
> > So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone described as
> > Celtic.
>
> If it belongs here at all, which I doubt, it's a loan.
A loan from what to what, pantless person?
> Somebody soon
> will have to tell lorad that Latvian is a satem language.
Keep it up, obsequious neophyte, and soon you will learn some more
words.
> >> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
> >
> > It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
> >
> >> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
> >> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
> >
> > Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as well.
Again...Borrowed from what to what?
Borrowed from one idiot's imagination to another's?
> Predicting the answer to that, I'll add that the way of the loans is
> obvious from internal variation in Germanic.
Your unsubstantiated predictions (along with your former pants) will
buy you a space cadet skull cap with the logo 'Space.. the final
frontier'.
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:5236a7f2-d077-473a...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
>>> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
So? Neither a thole nor a rowlock is an oar: they are
devices for holding the oar.
>>> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
>> So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone
>> described as Celtic.
> Try again. You wrote:
> "Pokorny (p.523) assigns the 'thole'
> word to *k'a(:)(n)k- 'branch, pole', whence also Goth.
> <ho:ha> 'plow' and ON <hæll> 'peg, pin; handle (of a
> scythe)' (from *hanhila-). Matasovic' gives the PIE as
> *k'o(n)kh- in discussing the Celtic cognates."
You obviously can't read: no word <koks> appears in that
passage.
> What is it.. some form of convenient memory lapse?
>>> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
>> It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
> For the third time.. with the usual preamble and:
>> For what it's worth, I notice that ha:r is ON for "shark".
>> Is this the same word as modern harr?
> "No: the long vowel makes it unlikely, and it turns out that
> the <-r> of <hár> is inflexional, which makes it pretty well
> impossible."
<Hai> isn't even mentioned there. And if you had quoted the
*right* passage, it still wouldn't have done you any good:
it clearly identifies the Dutch word as <haai>, not <Hai>.
>>> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
>>> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler fish'.
>> Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as
>> well.
> And this time you are seeing things that aren't there.
On the contrary, I'm seeing exactly what *is* there.
> Do you have any substantiation for your worthless parochial
> negativity?
None that is within your intellectual grasp.
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:4e837f23-6931-4c96...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> Trond Engen wrote:
>>> lorad:
>>> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
>> And, anyway, even if my books don't tell I'll bet my trousers it's a
>> loan of Germanic *airo:- f., perhaps by way of Finnic.
> Well.. hand your trousers to someone. Not me.
> Your baseless assertion isn't worth anything without substantiation.
> You actually posit an unattested (non-existant) constructed word
> having been derived from Finnic
No, he didn't. You can't read.
[...]
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen wrote:
>
>>> lorad:
>>>
>>> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
>>
>> And, anyway, even if my books don't tell I'll bet my trousers it's a
>> loan of Germanic *airo:- f., perhaps by way of Finnic.
>
> Well.. hand your trousers to someone. Not me.
> Your baseless assertion isn't worth anything without substantiation.
>
> You actually posit an unattested (non-existant) constructed word
> having been derived from Finnic (which did not exist at the time in
> question) - which is Ugric - as having been the source of an IE word
> (which already existed in Baltic)???
All NGmc languages and English have the 'oar' word. Bjorvand and
Lindeman give as the Gmc. pre-form a feminine *airo:- < *oy-ro:-,
possibly < *Hoy-so:- with clean cognates (with semantic variation around
"wooden pole") in Greek and Hittite and other reflexes of the root all
over the place. Köbler (<http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html>)
lists the IE root as *ei-/*oi- and the extended Greek/Germanic root as
*oies-/*ois-/*i:s-. (I wonder if it could be related to the 'yew' word.)
Anyway, it was borrowed into Finnic before the sixth century, maybe long
before. Latvian might have got it either directly from Germanic or by
way of Finnic.
(To counter my own case: The IE connection is rather slim and the AHD IE
Root Index doesn't mention the word at all. But I don't think it would
be any easier to establish an IE etymology from Latvian. What yields the
dipthong /ai-/ in Baltic?)
> Your mental capabilities are completely scary.
>
>>>> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
>>>
>>> So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone described as
>>> Celtic.
>>
>> If it belongs here at all, which I doubt, it's a loan.
>
> A loan from what to what, pantless person?
No idea. I didn't say I believe it to be a loan. The rest of the
explanation is here:
>> Somebody soon will have to tell lorad that Latvian is a satem
>> language.
>
> Keep it up, obsequious neophyte, and soon you will learn some more
> words.
Well, I didn't know 'obsequious'. That's one.
>>>> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
>>>
>>> It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
>>>
>>>> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
>>>> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler
>>>> fish'.
>>>
>>> Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as well.
>
> Again...Borrowed from what to what?
> Borrowed from one idiot's imagination to another's?
For obvious reasons German loans poured into Baltic for centuries. Both
words are known from upstream in forms that apparently would render the
forms you quote in Latvian. Loans the other way are excluded by a
variation of forms in Germanic that can't be derived from Baltic.
>> Predicting the answer to that, I'll add that the way of the loans is
>> obvious from internal variation in Germanic.
>
> Your unsubstantiated predictions
... one of which you just substantiated above, thank you.
> (along with your former pants) will buy you a space cadet skull cap
> with the logo 'Space.. the final frontier'.
I can't remember what a vacuum is but I know it's in my head.
--
Trond Engen
- braccatus ad astra
John Atkinson
> On Sep 27, 2:47 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> lorad wrote:
>>> On Sep 20, 1:51 am, John Swindle <jcswin...@msn.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:23:09 GMT, "John Atkinson"
>>
>>>> <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>> mike3 wrote:
>>>>>> Hi.
>>
>>>>>> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes
>>>>>> from, and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black".
>>>>>> But where does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European
>>>>>> language, it may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing
>>>>>> from some non-IE language) an Indo-European root form. What might
>>>>>> the old Indo-European root form be, and what words in other
>>>>>> Indo-European languages would also come from it (i.e. cognates of
>>>>>> "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E languages)?
>>
>>>>> According to Buck, Sanskrit kṛṣṇa is cognate with Old Church
>>>>> Slavonic c^rUnU (Russian cêrnyj -- as in Chernobyl) = black, Old
>>>>> Prussian kirsnan, Lithuanian kersâs (= black and white) and kersê.
>>>>> (= spotted cow), and Swedish and Norwegian harr (= ashes),
>>>>> Albanian sorr@ (= crow). The proto-Indo-European was *k^wr.snos.
>>
>>>>> [...]
>>
>>>> Is this also the root of Russian krasnyii (= red)?
>>
>>> Yes.. but Russian inherits it from Baltic.
>>
>> No, and no. Both Slavic and Baltic inherit "krasa" from their common
>> ancestor.
>>
>>> Baltic (Latvian): 'krasniiga' (colorful) 'krasa' (color)
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>>> Krishna was colorful.
>>
>> No he wasn't.
>
> ???
> Black or Blue (as he has been described also) are decided 'colorful'.
> Don't you think?
They're certainly not Red, in any language of the world. I suppose you
think that Spanish <colorado> means "black" too?
>> He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
>> other representations, sometimes black.
>
> Thank you for contradicting yourself,
Where did I contradict myself? I said that Sanskrit kṛṣṇa and Russian
cernyj are cognates, and that neither is related to Balto-Slavic *krasa.
That's true, and you're up yourself if you contend otherwise.
> and proving my point.
> I should have just let you do my work for me.. mucho gracias.
I don't need to do your work for you. You do a great job of tying yourself
in knots all by yourself.
[...]
J.
Paul J Kriha
Throwing peas against the wall!
>> Baltic (Latvian): 'krasniiga' (colorful) 'krasa' (color)
>
> Yep.
In W Slavic 'krasa' or 'krása' means beauty.
'Krásná dívka' = beautiful girl, nothing to do with her colour.
Is that also 'inheritted' from Baltic?
pjk
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> Hi.
>
> I once asked on this group about where the name "Krishna" comes from,
> and it was said it comes from a Sanskrit word for "black". But where
> does _that_ come from? If Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, it
> may have (probably does, unless it was a borrowing from some non-IE
> language) an Indo-European root form. What might the old Indo-European
> root form be, and what words in other Indo-European languages would
> also come from it (i.e. cognates of "Krishna" in non-Indian I-E
> languages)?
>
> "black" as well?
It's not used in modern Indian languages (except for referring to the
character named Krishna). The word is kAlA in Hindi and kara* in
Malayalam. It is kara in Turkic too.
> Such as the "black" in terms like "Black Sea" and
> "black hole"? Languages change, you know, and I'm curious.
lorad
> On Sep 22, 2:36 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Sep 21, 3:16 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 20, 11:33 pm, analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > And the reason that Sanskrit differs from all other human languages
> > > would be ...?
>
> > The reason is, of course, that Sanskrit isn't a human language. In the
> > Hindutva view, it is a superhuman, divine language.
>
> I thought from Analyst's posts that the Hindutva (I don't actually
> know that Analyst speaks for the Hindutva) position is that Sanskrit
> was created by the Vedic sages using the raw material in the inferior
> language(s) they spoke. Are you telling me that it was the gods that
> put it together?
>
> Heinlein used vaguely similar idea in "Gulf". He didn't have gods, of
> course, just supermen. But perhaps in Hindutva nomenclature one of
> Heinlein's supermen would be a god.
Arrived upon Earth via the viyamanas, no doubt.
PS: 'Veja manas' means 'wind aware' (aircraft) in Latvian, of course.
lorad
> On Sep 21, 10:19 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tapani Salminen skreiv:
>
> > > Trond Engen wrote:
>
> > >> In Slavic languages it's 'lipan' (with variations), except in
> > >> Ukrainian, where it's called <харіус>! What can we make of that?
> > >> Somehow I can't imagine current Ukrainian preferring a Soviet era
> > >> loan from Estonian.
>
> > > Russian dialects have both xarius and lipan for grayling (Thymallus).
> > > The standard word is xarius < Finnic harjus (long before the Soviet
> > > era).
>
> > dialects that far south, so I thought it would be from the standard
> > terminology of Russian biology. Soviet era was stupid -- it would rather
> > have happened when the bulk of Russian scholarship was seated in
> > St.Petersburg.
>
> > I see that there's also a Russian article
> > (<http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Хариус>), but as far as I can tell with
> > my non-existent Slavic there's no list of other names neither there nor
> > in the Ukrainian one.
>
> After having a look (one look, two Lux) at the article it seems to
> me that Хариус is a specific type of losos. Well the text says
> it's a Losos. In other (non-Rus/Ukr) Slavic languages it would
> probably be called just losos, with some qualifying adjective(s),
> if necessary.
>
> > Trond Engen
> > - out fishing
>
> pjk
> salmon fishing-
'Lasa' in Latvian.. 'loks' in Yiddish(?)
lorad
I certainly didn't say they were 'red'.
I said Krishna was 'colorful'.
Why do you think Krishna was 'red', when the texts say he was blue or
black?
> >> He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
> >> other representations, sometimes black.
>
> > Thank you for contradicting yourself,
>
> Where did I contradict myself? I said that Sanskrit kṛṣṇa and Russian
> cernyj are cognates, and that neither is related to Balto-Slavic *krasa.
> That's true, and you're up yourself if you contend otherwise.
'Chorny' is not cognate with 'krshna'...
Unless you would have Krishna equated with the Devil (Chort).
> > and proving my point.
> > I should have just let you do my work for me.. mucho gracias.
>
> I don't need to do your work for you. You do a great job of tying yourself
> in knots all by yourself.
Gaze above upon your own confusion.
QED
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:d56c22bf-6997-486d...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Sep 27, 7:23 pm, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Where did I contradict myself? I said that Sanskrit kṛṣṇa and Russian
>> cernyj are cognates, and that neither is related to Balto-Slavic *krasa.
>> That's true, and you're up yourself if you contend otherwise.
>
> 'Chorny' is not cognate with 'krshna'...
Russian <čërnyj> 'black' most certainly is cognate with
Sanskrit <kṛṣṇa-> 'black, dark'.
> Unless you would have Krishna equated with the Devil
> (Chort).
One has to be remarkably stupid, ignorant, or both to
imagine that the cognacy of the words implies identity of
the gods. Krishna and the Devil are associated with the
color black for different reasons.
lorad
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:30:26 -0700 (PDT), lorad
Let me make that clearer for you..
You would have to be stupid, ignorant, or both to contend that russian
'chorny' is cognate with 'krishna' and that its usage in Russian as
'black' does not apply to its closely attributed 'chort'.
As can be discerned by *direct inspection*, Russian 'krasnaya' is
'red' - not 'blue' or 'black'.
As can also be discerned by inspection, The Russian 'krasnaya' is far
more closely associated with Latvian 'krasa' - than any falsely
contended cognate association between 'Krshna' and 'chorny'.
Krshna was colorful and 'krasiigs' - and not black as the ' chornie
chort'.
lorad
>
> > Yep.
>
> In W Slavic 'krasa' or 'krása' means beauty.
> 'Krásná dívka' = beautiful girl, nothing to do with her colour.
Ever hear of colorful personalities'?
Maybe the proto-russians thought 'red' was beautiful.
Go ask.
> Is that also 'inheritted' from Baltic?
> pjk
Could very well be.. seeing as how Baltic is light years more
conservative than is Slavic.
> >> Krishna was colorful.
>
> > No he wasn't. He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
> > other representations, sometimes black. And indeed, the meaning of the
> > Sanskrit word kṛṣṇa includes "dark" or "dark-blue" as well as "black".
>
> > John.-
> Throwing peas against the wall!
Dried peas with a slingshot.
These peas punch holes in standardized ignorance.
Paul J Kriha
(1) Russian 'Chornyj' (black) is not a cognate of 'chort' (devil).
Panslavic 'chornyj' originates from the Old Slavonic *čьrnъ
while 'chort' is from Old Slavonic *čьrtъ.
(2) Re origins of Russian 'chornyj', Vasmer says:
<quote>
ORIGIN: Праслав. *čьrnъ из *čьrхnъ, которое родственно лит. Kirsnà
-- название реки, др.-прусск. kirsnan "черный", др.-инд. kr̥ṣṇás "черный",
далее сюда же лит. kéršas "черно-белый, пятнистый",
kéršė "корова-пеструха", kéršis "вол пестрой масти", karšìs "лещ",
kiršlỹs "хариус", шв., норв. harr -- то же (прагерм. *harzu-; см. Лиден,
РВВ 15; 510); см. И. Шмидт, Vok. 2, 33; Лескин, Bildg. 161; Буга,
РФВ 65, 308; Бернекер I, 169 и сл.; Траутман, ВSW 134 и сл.,
Арr. Sprd. 358 и сл.; Лёвенталь, Farbenn. 8; Педерсен, IF 5,
67; Шпехт 119; Перссон 750; Френкель, Lit. Wb. 245.
<end of quote>
So he says, there is др.-инд. kr̥ṣṇás "черный",
a rural ind. word kr̥ṣṇás meaning "black".
Could that be related to Krishna, I presume not.
pjk
Brian M. Scott
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
<news:48e1...@clear.net.nz> in sci.lang:
[...]
> (2) Re origins of Russian 'chornyj', Vasmer says:
> <quote>
> ORIGIN: Праслав. *čьrnъ из *čьrхnъ, которое родственно лит. Kirsnà
> -- название реки, др.-прусск. kirsnan "черный", др.-инд. kr̥ṣṇás "черный",
> далее сюда же лит. kéršas "черно-белый, пятнистый",
> kéršė "корова-пеструха", kéršis "вол пестрой масти", karšìs "лещ",
> kiršlỹs "хариус", шв., норв. harr -- то же (прагерм. *harzu-; см. Лиден,
> РВВ 15; 510); см. И. Шмидт, Vok. 2, 33; Лескин, Bildg. 161; Буга,
> РФВ 65, 308; Бернекер I, 169 и сл.; Траутман, ВSW 134 и сл.,
> Арr. Sprd. 358 и сл.; Лёвенталь, Farbenn. 8; Педерсен, IF 5,
> 67; Шпехт 119; Перссон 750; Френкель, Lit. Wb. 245.
> <end of quote>
> So he says, there is др.-инд. kr̥ṣṇás "черный",
> a rural ind. word kr̥ṣṇás meaning "black".
His dr.-ind. is Old Indic, from <drevnij>, just as
dr.-prussk. is Old Prussian.
> Could that be related to Krishna, I presume not.
It is taken to be, yes.
Brian
lorad
> lorad skreiv:
>
> > Trond Engen wrote:
> >>> lorad:
> >>> 'Aira' (oar) in Latvian.
>
> >> And, anyway, even if my books don't tell I'll bet my trousers it's a
> >> loan of Germanic *airo:- f., perhaps by way of Finnic.
>
> > Well.. hand your trousers to someone. Not me.
> > Your baseless assertion isn't worth anything without substantiation.
>
> > You actually posit an unattested (non-existant) constructed word
> > having been derived from Finnic (which did not exist at the time in
> > question) - which is Ugric - as having been the source of an IE word
> > (which already existed in Baltic)???
>
> All NGmc languages and English have the 'oar' word.
So does Baltic.. and Baltic was around way before NGmc and English.
> Bjorvand and
> Lindeman give as the Gmc. pre-form a feminine *airo:- < *oy-ro:-,
> possibly < *Hoy-so:- with clean cognates (with semantic variation around
> "wooden pole") in Greek and Hittite and other reflexes of the root all
> over the place.
Lindeman Shmindeman... Proto-germanic anything never existed.
There are no *oy-ro:- or *Hoy-so cognates to be found in Classical
Greek:
These are your only choices (perseus):
akônêtos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
amphêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 3 0.01 3 0.01
dekaskalmos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
dekêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
dikrotos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 3 0.01 3 0.01
diandicha LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 5 0.01 5 0.01
diêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 2 0.01 1 0.00
doru LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth oars 675 1.69 526 1.32
dolichêretmos LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 7 0.02 7 0.02
dôdekêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
hexêretmos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 0 0 0 0
hexêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 1 0.00 1 0.00
hexkaidekakrotos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
hendekêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
henêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
heptêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
enkôpon LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
ekkôpeô LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
ennêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
epêretmos LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 6 0.02 6 0.02
epêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
epikôpos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 4 0.01 4 0.01
eretês LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 29 0.07 29 0.07
eretmoô LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 22 0.06 1 0.00
eikosoros LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 3 0.01 3 0.01
eikosakôpos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
eikosêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
eiresia LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater oars, oarsmen 24 0.06 24 0.06
eukôpos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
euêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 9 0.02 9 0.02
hêmiolios LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 31 0.08 31 0.08
histiokôpos LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
isêretmos LSJ oars 1 0.00 1 0.00
katêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 4 0.01 4 0.01
kentron LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth oars 319 0.80 221
0.55
kôpê LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 69 0.17 67 0.17
kôpeô LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
kôpeus LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 7 0.02 5 0.01
kôpeuô LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 0 0 0 0
kôpêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 5 0.01 5 0.01
leukêretmos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 1 0.00 1 0.00
nêïos oars 0 0 0 0
parerettô LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
pentekaidekêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
pentêkonteros LSJ, Slater oars 20 0.05 0 0.00
pêdalion LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth oars 31 0.08 31 0.08
pitulos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 13 0.03 13 0.03
podêrês LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 14 0.04 14 0.04
poluêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
pteron LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth oars 127 0.32 69 0.17
pteroô LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 85 0.21 26 0.07
rhothios LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 21 0.05 9 0.02
rhothos LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater oars 3 0.01 3 0.01
tarsoomai LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
tarsos LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth oars 20 0.05 20 0.05
tessarakontêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
treiskaidekêrês LSJ oars 0 0 0 0
triakontazugos LSJ, Middle Liddell oars 0 0 0 0
triakontêrês LSJ
.. 'eres' is the only root that is possibly cognate with
'aires'/'oars'.
No 'oys' or ''ho-sos'.
> Köbler (<http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html>)
> lists the IE root as *ei-/*oi- and the extended Greek/Germanic root as
> *oies-/*ois-/*i:s-. (I wonder if it could be related to the 'yew' word.)
Kolber Shmobler.. the same evidence refutes.
> Anyway, it was borrowed into Finnic before the sixth century, maybe long
> before. Latvian might have got it either directly from Germanic or by
> way of Finnic.
Your Finnic assertion is a laugh.
The Finnic tribes that *arrived* at the Gulf of Bothnia in the 5th-6th
centuries had *no maritime terms at all*.
No native Finnic terms for Baltic fish, ships, sails, anchors, etc.
For you to contend that Europe awaited the arrival of Finnic tribes
from the continental interior for a name to ascribe to their millenia
old 'things they used to row a boat with' is.. forgive me... a crazy
idea.
> (To counter my own case: The IE connection is rather slim and the AHD IE
> Root Index doesn't mention the word at all. But I don't think it would
> be any easier to establish an IE etymology from Latvian. What yields the
> dipthong /ai-/ in Baltic?)
So then.. nomad yurt dwellers must have been the source of the concept
of oars?
What about the Classical Greek 'eres'?
A statistical anomaly?
> > Your mental capabilities are completely scary.
>
> >>>> 'Koks' (a length of wood) is Latvian - not Celtic.
>
> >>> So? The word <koks> has not been mentioned, let alone described as
> >>> Celtic.
>
> >> If it belongs here at all, which I doubt, it's a loan.
>
> > A loan from what to what, pantless person?
>
> No idea. I didn't say I believe it to be a loan. The rest of the
> explanation is here:
>
> >> Somebody soon will have to tell lorad that Latvian is a satem
> >> language.
>
> > Keep it up, obsequious neophyte, and soon you will learn some more
> > words.
>
> Well, I didn't know 'obsequious'. That's one.
>
> >>>> And 'Hai' is not necessarily Dutch.
>
> >>> It isn't Dutch, and no one said that it was.
>
> >>>> Latvian 'hai zivis' means 'shark fish'.
> >>>> ..just as 'val zivis' means 'whale' or idiomatically - 'ruler
> >>>> fish'.
>
> >>> Obviously <hai> here is borrowed; quite possibly <val> as well.
>
> > Again...Borrowed from what to what?
> > Borrowed from one idiot's imagination to another's?
>
> For obvious reasons German loans poured into Baltic for centuries.
For obvious reasons.. Germans were influenced by centuries of Baltic
contact.
(They invaded and colonized Baltic land. Most of Germany's Baltic
coast is former Baltic land)
(Baltic Prussian was still spoken in Prussia until the 1700s).
> Both
> words are known from upstream in forms that apparently would render the
> forms you quote in Latvian.
What does that mean?
What are your earliest sources (attested)?
> Loans the other way are excluded by a
> variation of forms in Germanic that can't be derived from Baltic.
No one can claim that 'germanic' is solely derived from any single
known source language...
The mish-mash of migrating tribes made that an impossibility.
However, you are doing the exact opposite. You are contending that
Baltic cannot have been the source of *any* German nomenclature.. just
as the original 'indo-germanicists' scribbled in their hyper-
nationalist taffels.
To this day it appears that such parochial conciets persist.. in the
face of evidence to the contrary.
> >> Predicting the answer to that, I'll add that the way of the loans is
> >> obvious from internal variation in Germanic.
>
> > Your unsubstantiated predictions
>
> ... one of which you just substantiated above, thank you.
Where? I missed it.
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:ed954249-f46e-4b35...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Sep 29, 8:40 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:30:26 -0700 (PDT), lorad
>> <lorad...@cs.com> wrote in
>> <news:d56c22bf-6997-486d...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
>> in sci.lang:
>>> On Sep 27, 7:23 pm, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Where did I contradict myself? I said that Sanskrit kṛṣṇa and Russian
>>>> cernyj are cognates, and that neither is related to Balto-Slavic *krasa.
>>>> That's true, and you're up yourself if you contend otherwise.
>>> 'Chorny' is not cognate with 'krshna'...
>> Russian <čërnyj> 'black' most certainly is cognate with
>> Sanskrit <kṛṣṇa-> 'black, dark'.
>>> Unless you would have Krishna equated with the Devil
>>> (Chort).
>> One has to be remarkably stupid, ignorant, or both to
>> imagine that the cognacy of the words implies identity of
>> the gods. Krishna and the Devil are associated with the
>> color black for different reasons.
> Let me make that clearer for you..
You can't: you don't know what you're talking about.
> You would have to be stupid, ignorant, or both to contend
> that russian 'chorny' is cognate with 'krishna'
Not in the least: you'd simply have to know what you were
talking about. Unfortunately, you don't. Indeed, in all
the years that you've hung around sci.lang you appear to
have learned nothing at all: you're still as pig-ignorant as
the first time I saw one of your posts.
> and that its usage in Russian as 'black' does not apply to
> its closely attributed 'chort'.
As Paul just pointed out, the two are quite distinct. In
fact, Vasmer says that <čort> is related to Lith. <kyré.ti>
'to be irritated, to be in a bad temper'.
> As can be discerned by *direct inspection*, Russian
> 'krasnaya' is 'red' - not 'blue' or 'black'.
So? It's a different word, unrelated to <čërnyj>, <čort>,
and <kṛṣṇa->.
[...]
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:0d60f9f9-6ced-4a32...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Sep 27, 4:41 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
[...]
>> Bjorvand and Lindeman give as the Gmc. pre-form a
>> feminine *airo:- < *oy-ro:-, possibly < *Hoy-so:- with
>> clean cognates (with semantic variation around "wooden
>> pole") in Greek and Hittite and other reflexes of the
>> root all over the place.
> Lindeman Shmindeman... Proto-germanic anything never existed.
Oh, there's no doubt that it existed; there are even a few
early runic inscriptions that show a stage of the language
very little later than PGmc.
> There are no *oy-ro:- or *Hoy-so cognates to be found in Classical
> Greek:
You wouldn't know: you haven't a clue what to look for.
[...]
>> For obvious reasons German loans poured into Baltic for
>> centuries.
> For obvious reasons.. Germans were influenced by centuries
> of Baltic contact.
Very little in linguistic terms. As you'd know if you ever
bothered to learn anything about the subject. But you never
will, because if you did, you'd have to give up your silly
fantasies, and that fragile ego of your would promptly
disintegrate.
[...]
>> Loans the other way are excluded by a variation of forms
>> in Germanic that can't be derived from Baltic.
> No one can claim that 'germanic' is solely derived from
> any single known source language...
No one does: it's well-known that it contains a significant
number of substrate words in addition to its PIE
inheritance.
> The mish-mash of migrating tribes made that an impossibility.
Not at all: it just shows that the period of PGmc.
linguistic unity predates the Völkerwanderung.
> However, you are doing the exact opposite. You are contending that
> Baltic cannot have been the source of *any* German nomenclature..
No, he isn't. You can't read. He's talking specifically
about the 'oar' word.
> just as the original 'indo-germanicists' scribbled in
> their hyper-nationalist taffels.
You don't know much history, either, I see.
> To this day it appears that such parochial conciets persist.. in the
> face of evidence to the contrary.
<splork!>
Look who's talking: Mr Linguistic Chauvinist himself!
>>>> Predicting the answer to that, I'll add that the way of the loans is
>>>> obvious from internal variation in Germanic.
>>> Your unsubstantiated predictions
>> ... one of which you just substantiated above, thank you.
> Where? I missed it.
Along with a lot of other things.
Dušan Vukotić
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:30:26 -0700 (PDT), lorad
First, the words cherniy (Russ.черный black; Serb. crn; Cz. černo;
OSl чрънъ) and chort (devil; Russ. черт; Cz. čert ) are not directly
related. Of course, both words are derived from the same ur-basis (Hor-
Gon), but with a different "evolutionary" path. Namely, these words
are distantly related to OSl горѣти (Russ. гореть, Serb. goreti; Russ.
горение burning, Serb. gorenje; Cz. hoření; Skt. kiraṇa ray; Lith.
karštas burning; OIr. gorim burning; Gr. θέρος summer heat; θερμός).
The Serbian verbs harati (devastate), po-harati (rob), po-koriti
(conqer, subjugate; Russ. покорять) are clearly related to the above
mentioned word "goreti" (burn). On the other side are the Serbian
words as gar (soot; Russ. нагар burn, snuff, soot), garav, garo
(black), garežan (coverd with soot), which are also evidently derived
from the earlier verb 'goreti' (burn). I means that Slavic chern comes
from horen; i.e. OSl. goreti, Serb. garan => cherni/crn (black).
As you can see, Serb. garežan (covered with soot, burned; cf. Russ.
nagar burned and Serb. nagoreo, Lat. niger black) is phonetically very
close to Skt. krishna (black) and it shows that Slavic 'chert' has
nothing essentially to do with 'chern' (black), because 'chert' is
related to Slavic 'harati' (devastate) and English 'hurt') despite the
above mentioned fact that 'harati' comes from the same basis as gar
(soot) and cherniy (black) and that both of these words are closely
related to the Slavic verb 'goreti/horeti' (burn) and the noun
'gorenje/horenje' (burning).
DV
Trond Engen
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:42:05 -0700 (PDT), lorad
> <lora...@cs.com> wrote in
> <news:0d60f9f9-6ced-4a32...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
>> On Sep 27, 4:41 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> For obvious reasons German loans poured into Baltic for
>>> centuries.
>>
>> For obvious reasons.. Germans were influenced by centuries
>> of Baltic contact.
>
> Very little in linguistic terms. As you'd know if you ever
> bothered to learn anything about the subject. But you never
> will, because if you did, you'd have to give up your silly
> fantasies, and that fragile ego of your would promptly
> disintegrate.
>
> [...]
>
>>> Loans the other way are excluded by a variation of forms
>>> in Germanic that can't be derived from Baltic.
>>
>> [...] You are contending that Baltic cannot have been the source of
>> *any* German nomenclature..
>
> No, he isn't. You can't read. He's talking specifically
> about the 'oar' word.
About <hai> and <val>, actually. <airo> was above. But the point is valid.
--
Trond Engen
- på valen
Franz Gnaedinger
Go farther back to PIE *ker 'burn' and you have
explained both words: flames are red, near the
wood also blue, and they leave dark and black
ashes. Going still further back in time you get to
CER KOS the divine stag guarding the fiery
entrance to and exit from the Underworld. CER
also means shaman, and a mythical shaman
must have been worshipped as bringer of fire
in very early times. CER KOS is present in
Latin quercus 'oak tree' - look at how branches
of the oak tree fork, nearly at right angles, like
stag antlers. The oak must have been the sacred
tree of shamans, perhaps even their world tree,
and fires made from oak wood could have led to
the above words, *ker and so on. CER *ker is
also present in the name of the Greek hellhound
Kerberos, guardian of the Underworld, which
became the realm of the Christian devil, so I
would not be astonished if also words for devil
have the same origin. PS. The entrance to and
exit from the Underworld were fiery because
the Underworld KAL was traversed by the sun
horse during night. The Underworld had once
been a lovely place, but KAL turned into Hell
with the labor of mining. An Armenian figurine
of Herkules as the androgynous sun archer Tyr
leading the hellhound Kerberos dates to the
Late Bronze Age, Kerberos is covered in flames.
Herkules is another derivative of CER. He is an
ambigous figure. There are many stories invovling
Herkules, but they have not been worked into an
epic (or if they have, it is lost). Otherwise we could
look deeper into the past.
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
Krasno is related to Serbian šareno (colorful, mottled; Russ.
красочный, яркий; Serb. jarko colorful)
DV
Harlan Messinger
> First, the words cherniy (Russ.черный black; Serb. crn; Cz. černo;
> OSl чрънъ) and chort (devil; Russ. черт; Cz. čert ) are not directly
> related. Of course, both words are derived from the same ur-basis (Hor-
> Gon), but with a different "evolutionary" path.
Hint: every time you write "of course" before something that is either
not known or not believed by anybody, you reveal a bit more of your
deluded perspective (unless the problem is really that you just don't
know what "of course" means).
Franz Gnaedinger
It was preordained that Herakles will die by fire,
and so, when he felt his end come near, he climbed
a pyre. From this we may conclude that shamans
of old, when they had died, were cremated on a pyre
of oak wood. Not only the name of Herakles goes
back to CER but also the name of rivalling Hera.
He might be a descendant of CER KOS while she
is a descendant of CER -: I -: as explained before,
and Krishna, as the pastoral god who created the
cow herd girls, is a decendant of CER -: I -: and
as the black one a descendant of CER KOS who
was involved with fire, as also explained before.
Peter T. Daniels
> So does Baltic.. and Baltic was around way before NGmc and English.
Baltic is neither older nor younger than Germanic.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sep 30, 7:43 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> Go farther back to PIE *ker 'burn' and you have
> explained both words: flames are red, near the
> wood also blue,
What kind of wood burns so hot as to show a blue flame?
Richard Herring
<ff2320fd-242e-4f42...@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> writes
Proto-wood, obviously. Not the degenerate and corrupt woods of today.
--
Richard Herring
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:TZednfvllJ-...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
[...]
> All NGmc languages and English have the 'oar' word.
> Bjorvand and Lindeman give as the Gmc. pre-form a
> feminine *airo:- < *oy-ro:-, possibly < *Hoy-so:- with
> clean cognates (with semantic variation around "wooden
> pole") in Greek and Hittite and other reflexes of the
> root all over the place.
Can you give a sampling, especially the Gk. and Hitt.?
[...]
> What yields the dipthong /ai-/ in Baltic?)
*ay- and *oy-, going along with the Baltic merger of *a and
*o as /a/.
[...]
Brian
Trond Engen
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 01:41:10 +0200, Trond Engen
> <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
> <news:TZednfvllJ-...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>
>> All NGmc languages and English have the 'oar' word.
>> Bjorvand and Lindeman give as the Gmc. pre-form a
>> feminine *airo:- < *oy-ro:-, possibly < *Hoy-so:- with
>> clean cognates (with semantic variation around "wooden
>> pole") in Greek and Hittite and other reflexes of the
>> root all over the place.
I see I've written *Hoy-so:-. The last o was supposed to read a, but
*Hoy-s- would have been better.
> Can you give a sampling, especially the Gk. and Hitt.?
It's more or less the same list as Köbler's. Note the "possibly", but
here is B&L in my usual ad hoc translation:
[quote] IE: The Gmc. word for 'oar' goes back to Pre-Gmc. *oy-ra:- f.,
where *oy- may reflect IE *Hoy-, found in Hitt. <hiss(a)-, <hess(a)->
"pole" (<Anat. *hays- < *Hoys-s-). It is possible to see this *Hoy-s-
also in Gk. (Homeric) <oie:ion> n. "rudder, helm", if <oie:> here is
from older *oysa:- < *HoyseH2. [...] Belonging here is also Lith. <íena>
f. "pole", if one takes <íe-> from Balt. *ai- < *oy- [hence my question.
TE]. In that case the <h-> of <hiss(a)-, <hess(a)-> etc. can be taken as
a reflex [*H3, so that *Hoy- above is from original *Hey-.]
A zero-grade may be present in OInd. <i:Sá> f. "pole", but [...] [/quote]
Köbler, with what I hope are transparent transcriptions:
[quote] **ei- (4), *oi-, idg., Sb.: nhd. Stange, Deichsel; ne. stake
(N.), shaft; RB.: Pokorny 298 (438/19), ind., gr., germ., balt., slaw.;
Hw.: s. *ojes-; W.: s. gr. <oié:ion>, N., Griff am Steuerruder; W.: s.
gr. <oíax>, M., Steuerruder, Jochring; W.: s. germ. *airo:, st. F. (æ),
Ruder; an. <a:-r> (1), <o.-r>, st. F. (o:), Ruder; W.: s. germ. *airo:,
st. F. (o:), Ruder; ae. <a:-r> (2), st. F. (o:), Ruder [/quote]
--
Trond Engen
- airo:dynamic
Paul J Kriha
What has that to do with the price of bread?
> Maybe the proto-russians thought 'red' was beautiful.
> Go ask.
You go and ask about the difference between krasnaja
and krasivaja.
>> Is that also 'inheritted' from Baltic?
>> pjk
>
> Could very well be.. seeing as how Baltic is light years more
> conservative than is Slavic.
But of course, you already said that before, silly me.
The word was 'inheritted' at speed of light into all Slavic
languages thousands of miles apart as a number of cognates
with different loosely related meanings.
>>>> Krishna was colorful.
>>
>>> No he wasn't. He's usually depicted with dark blue skin in paintings and
>>> other representations, sometimes black. And indeed, the meaning of the
>>> Sanskrit word kṛṣṇa includes "dark" or "dark-blue" as well as "black".
>>
>>> John.-
>
>> Throwing peas against the wall!
>
> Dried peas with a slingshot.
> These peas punch holes in standardized ignorance.
Unfortunately, so far John hasn't managed to punch any holes at all.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
Crumbs! I meant to say "it is" not "not"!
pjk
> Brian
Paul J Kriha
Proto-wood? Maybe, maybe.
My bet is on Magdalenian WOD.
That was the kind of WOD to BRN with RED and BLU FLM.
PJK
Franz Gnaedinger
wrote:
> Richard Herring wrote:
> > In message
> > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> writes
>
> >> What kind of wood burns so hot as to show a blue flame?
>
> > Proto-wood, obviously. Not the degenerate and corrupt woods of today.
>
> Proto-wood? Maybe, maybe.
>
> My bet is on Magdalenian WOD.
> That was the kind of WOD to BRN with RED and BLU FLM.
Your bet is no good. Magdalenian BRA means
right arm, the inverse ARB means branch, present
in French arbre 'tree', while, interestingly, English
branch is a derivative of BRA. Branches were seen
as 'arms' of trees.
Peter: did you never observe that flames of candles
are blue near the wicker? same for flames near
the surface of the wood, where there is not enough
oxygen. (Now don't tell me the concept of oxygen
is nonsense, it's phlogiston, actually.)
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Sep 24, 9:09 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 24, 2:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > When you, _just once_, provide a rigorous derivation of _any_ of your
> > > "etymologies," comparable to those provided by Indo-Europeanists over
> > > the past 175 years, showing step by step and regularity by regularity
> > > exactly how the attested data emerge from your constructions, _then_
> > > they will be considered seriously.
>
> > I began my Magdalenian experiment in early 2005,
> > since then I perform the whole experiment online,
> > in open daylight, for everyone to see, first in a more
> > intuitive way, then establishing my four Magdalenian
> > laws, then mining words using my four laws, always
> > and forever explaining every move and each and
> > every idea, and answering all questions, developing
> > every aspect in separate threads, then giving a concise
> > version in my etymological thread, and keeping the
> > latter thread alive, so that it can be consulted again.
> > But you brag about not reading my messages, now
> > don't expect that I repeat them all for you. Anyway,
> > I do not write for you, I write for hopeful young readers
> > with an open mind, and with enough background
> > in the sciences to evaluate my opinions on their own.
>
> Hopefully, "hopeful young readers" are familiar with scientific
> procedure and will recognize your fantasies for fantasies. When you
> start doing science, you will receive serious attention.
That will be the day. :)
I seem to recall that Franz told on his web pages that he has been
doing this for thirty years, until the WWW made it possible for him to
publish his thoughts. Surely his life is an unforgettable monument to
human futility.
Peter T. Daniels
If he has web pages, why does he type everything here? Why doesn't he
provide a link? (I don't think he does; he goes to the library to
email.)
Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:15:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>If he has web pages, why does he type everything here? Why doesn't he
>provide a link?
Don't know. But I will:
http://www.seshat.ch/home/homepage.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Dušan Vukotić
Of course! :-)
I am using "of course" (as well as any other people), when I am
talking about something what is undoubted. And there is no doubt that
the above words (chern and chort) sprang from the same ur-basis. At
this moment, I am the only one who is claiming that such basis is Hor-
Gon, but, because it is an undeniable truth... OF COURSE... my "of
course" in this case is at the right place.
DV
Harlan Messinger
> On Sep 30, 12:36 pm, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>> First, the words cherniy (Russ.черный black; Serb. crn; Cz. černo;
>>> OSl чрънъ) and chort (devil; Russ. черт; Cz. čert ) are not directly
>>> related. Of course, both words are derived from the same ur-basis (Hor-
>>> Gon), but with a different "evolutionary" path.
>> Hint: every time you write "of course" before something that is either
>> not known or not believed by anybody, you reveal a bit more of your
>> deluded perspective (unless the problem is really that you just don't
>> know what "of course" means).
>
> Of course! :-)
>
> I am using "of course" (as well as any other people), when I am
> talking about something what is undoubted.
The use of "of course" implies that what you are saying is undoubted by
the person/people you are talking to, the gist being "I know you know
this already, I'm only taking the time to mention it because it's an
essential step in my analysis". This is almost never the case when you
use the expression.