AS gebúr; bauer; neighbour
Dušan Vukotić
between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and English inhabitancy?
In addition, what the words neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak
(peasant) have in common?
DV
Joachim Pense
> Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the relation
> between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and English inhabitancy?
Das Nasobem
Auf seinen Nasen schreitet
einher das Nasobem,
von seinem Kind begleitet.
Es steht noch nicht im Brehm.
Es steht noch nicht im Meyer.
Und auch im Brockhaus nicht.
Es trat aus meiner Leyer
zum ersten Mal ans Licht.
Auf seinen Nasen schreitet
(wie schon gesagt) seitdem,
von seinem Kind begleitet,
einher das Nasobem.
von Christian Morgenstern
Joachim
Craoi...@gmail.com
You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be known that
the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the stem word there is -sel-,
which occurs in Russian as -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-. So, the
stem is probably a very old borrowing from Germanic into Slavic, and
related to German siedeln. But of course you are not interested
anyway, so forget about it.
Brian M. Scott
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in
<news:fr6g71$2mo$01$2...@news.t-online.com> in sci.lang:
[...]
> von Christian Morgenstern
Gee, I'd never have guessed! <g>
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the
>> relation between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and
>> English inhabitancy? In addition, what the words
>> neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in
>> common?
<Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
(Balto-)Slavic.
<Neighbor> and <Bauer> are from PGmc. *bu:ram 'dweller, esp.
a farmer', from PIE *bHeuh- 'to be, exist, grow'.
(<Neighbor> contains two other elements as well.)
> You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be
> known that the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the
> stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as
> -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-.
Two different roots, I think: the one with /d/ probably does
go with PGmc. *setlaz, German <siedeln>, etc., as you
suggest:
> So, the stem is probably a very old borrowing from
> Germanic into Slavic, and related to German siedeln.
>But of course you are not
> interested anyway, so forget about it.
Brian
Marc
Well, neighbour obviously comes from German bauer plus "near," which
sounds kind of like naseobina (close enough, anyway), which obviously
must mean they are all the same word originally.
Here's my list of words which prove Japanese and English are dialects
of the same language:
Jpn - Eng
kiru ('kill') - kill
no ('brain') - know
aru ('to be') - are
ken ('wisdom') - ken
bin ('bottle') - bin
gun ('military') - gun
kan ('can') - can
bai ('double') - bi
toku ('preach') - talk
miru ('look') - mirror
kin ('close') - kin
so ('so') - so
iyake ('yucky') - yucky
This is definitive proof - only a lunatic could chalk so many
"coincidences" up to random chance!
Marc
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
> <news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> > You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be
> > known that the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the
> > stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as
> > -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-.
>
> Two different roots, I think: the one with /d/ probably does
> go with PGmc. *setlaz, German <siedeln>, etc., as you
> suggest:
Well, I am very bad at historical linguistics, but if "szedl/" "he
went" is matched by "shël" in Russian, I don't think it is that
impossible that the -d- would have been lost elsewhere before the -
l-.
Dušan Vukotić
My congratulation!
You are absolutely right about the sound <l>; naseobina comes from
naseob(l)ina; i.e. from (g)na-heh-b(l)i-(g)na; but you are not right
when you conclude that German Siedlung (settlment) is directly related
to the Slavic/Serbian selo (Russ. село). Slavic selo is a form of the
word se(b)lo and na-seob(l)ina (cf. Serb. soba (!) room). On the other
side, German Siedlung (settlment) is derived from the same primal Gon-
Bel-Gon basis, but with the quite different semantic. Namely, Siedlung
is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat, saddle) and this is related to
sagnuti (bend, bow); similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent
and bed (Ger. Bett). It means that the lengthened-grade form for
Siedlung is *sed- (not *sel-) and *sed-lo- is *sed-li-gn sufixed form
(Serb. sedenje seating; sedlanje saddling).
If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian govor-iti (speak) I
hope you would be able to understand the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is
used in building of stem words as well as an addition to the stem.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Mar 11, 12:03 pm, Du¹an Vukotiæ <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the relation
> > between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and English inhabitancy?
> > In addition, what the words neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak
> > (peasant) have in common?
>
> Well, neighbour obviously comes from German bauer plus "near," which
> sounds kind of like naseobina (close enough, anyway), which obviously
> must mean they are all the same word originally.
Do not forget gebúr! Is that word related to neighbour (Bauer)?
> Here's my list of words which prove Japanese and English are dialects
> of the same language:
>
> Jpn - Eng
> kiru ('kill') - kill
> no ('brain') - know
> aru ('to be') - are
> ken ('wisdom') - ken
> bin ('bottle') - bin
> gun ('military') - gun
> kan ('can') - can
> bai ('double') - bi
> toku ('preach') - talk
> miru ('look') - mirror
> kin ('close') - kin
> so ('so') - so
> iyake ('yucky') - yucky
>
> This is definitive proof - only a lunatic could chalk so many
> "coincidences" up to random chance!
>
> Marc
You are a real genius... Marx!
DV
Brian M. Scott
<dusan....@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:6cd37819-c206-4a85...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[...]
> Namely, Siedlung is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat,
> saddle)
Mirabile visu! The jackass actually got one right.
> and this is related to sagnuti (bend, bow);
But of course it couldn't last.
> similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
> (Ger. Bett).
Which is to say, none at all: no two of the three have the
same PGmc. or even PIE source.
> It means that the lengthened-grade form
<snicker>
Dressing up in mum's clothes now, are we?
[...]
> If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian
> govor-iti (speak) I hope you would be able to understand
> the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is used in building of stem
> words as well as an addition to the stem.
Obviously you meant <hablablablar>.
Brian M. Scott
<dusan....@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:c75858ba-d603-47be...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[...]
> Do not forget gebúr! Is that word related to neighbour (Bauer)?
neighbor < néahgebúr = néah + gebúr
[...]
Bart Mathias
Too late. I already proved it in 1967 (I didn't find out until final
exam time how successful my proof had been):
-ed/-t : -ta
amass : amas-
anchor : ikari
are : ar-
be : wi- < *bi-
beat/butt : but-
belly : hara/-bara < para
bogeyman : bakemono
bone : hone/-bone < p...
box : hako/-bako < p...
boy : booya
cold : koori
demo(cracy) : tami
dew : tuyu
door : to
ease : yas(u-/asi-) [see tea for (-)ea(-):(-)ya(-)]
eros : iro
garb/garment : koromo
gate : kado
howl : hoeru
ire : ira (-datsu, -irasuru)
jabber : shaber-
kill : kir-
manner : mane
mare : uma
measure : hakar- < *bakaru (see "treasure" for -easur-:-akar-)
mole : mogura
more : moo
name : namae
occur : okor-
patch (garden): hatake < p...
puke : huk-/hak- < p...
scold : sikar-
sip : suw- < sup-
so 'tis : soo-desu
stick : tsuk-
tea : tya
trap : torae- < torap(e)-
treasure : takara (cf. "measure")
trip : tabi
up : uhe < upe
walk : aruk-
woman : oNna < womina
yam : imo
Dušan Vukotić
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT), Du¹an Vukotiæ
> <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in
Copy-paste Brainy, you'd better stay away from this discussion; it is
too complicated for your simple-minded crappy Brian to understand!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Du¹an Vukotiæ
> <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:c75858ba-d603-47be...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > Do not forget gebúr! Is that word related to neighbour (Bauer)?
>
> neighbor < néahgebúr = néah + gebúr
>
> [...]
Yeah... neáh-búend; neáh-gebýren (neighbor); Is neáh-búend related to
husbund and Serb. gospodin (gentleman)?
If you were not so stupid Brainy I would show you what Serbian
"uz" (near, beside) "neáh" and "next" have in common.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT), Du¹an Vukotiæ
> <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:6cd37819-c206-4a85...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > Namely, Siedlung is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat,
> > saddle)
>
> Mirabile visu! The jackass actually got one right.
>
> > and this is related to sagnuti (bend, bow);
>
> But of course it couldn't last.
>
> > similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
> > (Ger. Bett).
Beugen, bent, bind, wind (wrap); compare bed and wed; use tha
Brian! :-)
Serbian krevet (bed); from po-krivati (cover, wrap), krov (roof; OE
hrof)
DV
Trond Engen
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
>> On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the
>>> relation between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and
>>> English inhabitancy? In addition, what the words
>>> neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in
>>> common?
>
> <Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
> village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
> far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
> (Balto-)Slavic.
>
> [...]
>
>> You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be
>> known that the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the
>> stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as
>> -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-.
>
> Two different roots, I think: the one with /d/ probably does
> go with PGmc. *setlaz, German <siedeln>, etc., as you
> suggest:
>
>> So, the stem is probably a very old borrowing from
>> Germanic into Slavic, and related to German siedeln.
This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention ON/OIc
<salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl> n., etc.,
find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell that it's not
possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or s-stem. They cite
Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil" as cognates, leading
back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to take Slav. <selo> <
*sed-lo-. They recount, but reject, the objection that the semantic
connection between the Germanic and Baltic words is thin. For some
reason they don't mention any semantic problem with Lat. <solum>.
Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective pair? Bjorvand
(1994) doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his example, I
think that a neuter *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a
non-individualizing collective feminine plural *sal(j)az. This would
logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl. "grassland" is
derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land". (The feminine plural of <sel>,
<seljar>, is known from toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of
neuters.) The dominant forms of this feminine plural are equal to the
masculine and might in turn have yielded an analogous mascculine <salr>.
This is not as far-fetched as it may sound, since it happened to several
words, e.g. <óss> "rivermouth", which has been a masculine in Ins.
Scsnd. and W. Norw. for a long time. (Bjorvand, BTW, takes Lat. <o:ra>
f. "rim, coast" as a creation from the collective feminine plural of
<o:s> "mouth".) Baltic has lost the neuter and would have replaced the
old neuter singulars with secondary feminines.
The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take". I
think one would need a verbal noun *sVl- "taking" > "farmland", perhaps
surviving in Lat. <solum>, and take the a-stems as derivations meaning
something like "house on farmland". But now I'm far out.
It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I suppose
it can be done, but I don't know how. Also the often-but-never-well
explained ON <sæll> "good, happy, (by implication of its negations:)
well off" is a tempting target, but the long vowel is a problem.
--
Trond Engen
- doing seldom right
Dušan Vukotić
> Brian M. Scott skreiv:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
> > <news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> > in sci.lang:
>
> >> On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the
> >>> relation between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and
> >>> English inhabitancy? In addition, what the words
> >>> neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in
> >>> common?
>
> > <Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
> > village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
> > far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
> > (Balto-)Slavic.
>
> > [...]
>
> >> You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be
> >> known that the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the
> >> stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as
> >> -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-.
>
> > Two different roots, I think: the one with /d/ probably does
> > go with PGmc. *setlaz, German <siedeln>, etc., as you
> > suggest:
>
> >> So, the stem is probably a very old borrowing from
> >> Germanic into Slavic, and related to German siedeln.
>
> This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention ON/OIc
> <salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl> n., etc.,
That's OK These words are derived from Gon-Bel basis; similar as
Serbian koliba (hut) and kula (tower)
> find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell that it's not
> possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or s-stem. They cite
> Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil" as cognates, leading
> back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to take Slav. <selo> <
> *sed-lo-.
English soil is related to Serbo-Slavic zemlja (earth; Skt. samala /
soiled/; OFrs. sulenge soiling; Serb. zameljan /soiled/, meljati /
smear/; Gr. μελαινω blacken, to stain black). Of course, no one could
understand these processes without knowing that Slavic zemlja (Russ.
земля; Cz. země earth) is closely related to Latin globus and that
Slavic selo is closely related to the other Slavic words as zemlja
(earth) and nebo (sky). In order to grasp the secret of the
development of language one need to aplly the Xur-Bel-Gon Human Speech
Formula (HSF). The English word hamlet (home) is derived from the same
basis (Gon-Bel-Gon) as zemlja, selo; cf. Russ. семья (simya; family).
DV
> - doing seldom right- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Paul J Kriha
news:xkt1rnuljgbc$.qsd7iuvk1xv9.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT), Dušan Vukotić
> <dusan....@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:6cd37819-c206-4a85...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > Namely, Siedlung is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat,
> > saddle)
>
> Mirabile visu! The jackass actually got one right.
It's bound to happen once in a blue moon.
> > and this is related to sagnuti (bend, bow);
>
> But of course it couldn't last.
Another brick wall came along in the form of a prefix(sa-)+
stem(gnuti, hnuti, hnouti, or hnu, meaning "to move").
BTW, cognates of this "to move" can be found in many IE
languages. Particularly in Slavic, there are reflexes of it
in hundreds of different words.
pjk
> > similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
> > (Ger. Bett).
>
> Which is to say, none at all: no two of the three have the
> same PGmc. or even PIE source.
>
> > It means that the lengthened-grade form
>
> <snicker>
>
> Dressing up in mum's clothes now, are we?
>
> [...]
>
> > If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian
> > govor-iti (speak) I hope you would be able to understand
> > the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is used in building of stem
> > words as well as an addition to the stem.
>
> Obviously you meant <hablablablar>.
Yes, I see. It's because "used in building of stem words"
should be "used in bubbling of stream words".
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote in messagenews:xkt1rnuljgbc$.qsd7iuvk1xv9.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT), Du¹an Vukotiæ
> > <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > <news:6cd37819-c206-4a85...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> > in sci.lang:
>
> > [...]
>
> > > Namely, Siedlung is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat,
> > > saddle)
>
> > Mirabile visu! The jackass actually got one right.
>
> It's bound to happen once in a blue moon.
>
> > > and this is related to sagnuti (bend, bow);
>
> > But of course it couldn't last.
>
> Another brick wall came along in the form of a prefix(sa-)+
> stem(gnuti, hnuti, hnouti, or hnu, meaning "to move").
> BTW, cognates of this "to move" can be found in many IE
> languages. Particularly in Slavic, there are reflexes of it
> in hundreds of different words.
>
> pjk
Kriha, your stupidity is immeasurable. Your intellectual ability is
nothing but a rotten idée pre-fixe :-)
I thought you have learned something from our earlier discussins about
words as porod (partus, birth, brat, parthenos) but it seems your
brain is aborting any sound thinking "baby"! Slavic kuka, ugnuti,
pognuti are the same words as English hook and bend (German beugen).
Compare Serb. počinjati, Russ. начать, начинать; Slov. začínať, all
with meaning "begin", and you will "see" that these words are po-, na-
or za- prefixed. These verbs are connected to the nouns pogon (drive),
nagon (impetus), izgon (exodus), iskon (origin, bginning). Following
the logic you used in case of Slavic, I do not understand what is
priventing you to apply the same "pattern" to Germanic be + ginnan.
I know you are not as stupid as you look and that you are far more
intelligent than our copy/paste Brainy:
- compare Latin generatio (from genero beget, produce, bring to life)
and Serbo-Slavic narod (people) and, I hope, you will finally be able
to understand why the words as Serbian porod (birth) and English birth
(Latin partus) are most closely related.
DV
>
> > > similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
> > > (Ger. Bett).
>
> > Which is to say, none at all: no two of the three have the
> > same PGmc. or even PIE source.
>
> > > It means that the lengthened-grade form
>
> > <snicker>
>
> > Dressing up in mum's clothes now, are we?
>
> > [...]
>
> > > If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian
> > > govor-iti (speak) I hope you would be able to understand
> > > the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is used in building of stem
> > > words as well as an addition to the stem.
>
> > Obviously you meant <hablablablar>.
>
> Yes, I see. It's because "used in building of stem words"
> should be "used in bubbling of stream words".- Hide quoted text -
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:goOdnU07i8a...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott skreiv:
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
>> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
>> in sci.lang:
>> [...]
Derksen keeps PSl. *selo and *sedlo distinct; he's not sure
whether the latter is actually a PSl. formation and notes
that if it is, 'we must assume that in those languages where
*dl- > *l- the etymon merged with <selo>', adding that in
West Slavic the two seem to have influenced each other.
Both are listed as neuter o-stems.
By the way, Derksen glosses Lith. <salà> (fem. a:-stem) as
'island, (dial.) field surrounded by meadows (or vice
versa), (E. Lith.) village' in his Slavic inherited lexicon;
in his Baltic inherited lexicon he makes it 'island, high
spot in a swamp, grove, village'. He wonders whether <salà>
is cognate with <sálti> 'to flow (slowly)', which he refers
to a PIE *solh- with no further cognates; for <salà> he
gives the expected *sol(h)-eh2. Pokorny puts <sálti> under
*sel-(4) 'to spring'.
> Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective
> pair? Bjorvand (1994) doesn't touch this word, but
> trying to follow his example, I think that a neuter
> *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a non-individualizing
> collective feminine plural *sal(j)az. This would
> logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl.
> "grassland" is derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land".
So the fem. <eng> is derived from <engjar>?
> (The feminine plural of <sel>, <seljar>, is known from
> toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of
> neuters.)
Aha. You've just cleared up something that had been
bothering me recently, the place-name <Hrísar> in
Landnámabók: obviously plural, but apparently the wrong
plural.
[...]
Brian
Trond Engen
Harald Bjorvand's book "Holt og Holtar" (1994) is a study in the
development of the Indo-European abstracts/collectives ending in *-eH2.
He argues the well-known case that the original inanimate paradigm
consisted of what is now the neuter singular and the feminine plural.
Neuter plurals and feminine singulars are younger.
In the penultimate chapter Bjorvand lists some examples of what he
considers to be relics of the collective plural. Latv. <beigas> fpl.
"end" may be compared with Lith. <baigà> fs. "end", and the Lith.
compound <pa:reigos> fpl. "service, post" with Lith. <eigà> fs. "walk".
The feminine singulars are derived from plurals in -a:s. According to
this, Lith. <salà> fs. would be regular from *salos fpl. < *sola:s.
>> Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective
>> pair? Bjorvand (1994) doesn't touch this word, but
>> trying to follow his example, I think that a neuter
>> *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a non-individualizing
>> collective feminine plural *sal(j)az.
The Germanic forms seems to suggest forms both with and without -j-.
>> This would logically mean "village" in the same way as
>> <engjar> fpl. "grassland" is derived from <engi> ns.
>> "piece of land".
>
> So the fem. <eng> is derived from <engjar>?
As I understand it, yes.
>> (The feminine plural of <sel>, <seljar>, is known from
>> toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of
>> neuters.)
>
> Aha. You've just cleared up something that had been
> bothering me recently, the place-name <Hrísar> in
> Landnámabók: obviously plural, but apparently the wrong
> plural.
<Hrísar> is cognate with Norwegian farm names like 'Rise' and 'Risa'.
Since feminine plurals of neuter nouns are archaisms, they are more
common in toponyms.
--
Trond Engen
- selling his view
Paul J Kriha
news:f90d209b-c175-469b...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Oh, triffic! All this potpouri of gobbledygook is supposed to convince me that
"Siedlung and Serbian sed(a)lo (seat, saddle) is related to sagnuti (bend, bow)"?
You failed your task again, young grasshopper!
pjk
P.S. Forget for the moment Germanic words like "beugen", etc. Do you
realize you suggested that Slavic words "sed(a)lo" and "sagnuti" were
cognates? Didn't your high school language teacher have anything to
say about OSlavic/PIE stems -sed- and -gnu-?
Tak co profesore?
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
The root *sed- is absolutely impossible! One of the most important
rules of HSF is that "the dentals originated from velars"; dentals are
not the primal sounds. Slavic sedeti is derived from se/gen- (Serb.
dial. seđenje, siđenje seating; Lat. sessio seat).
You and Brainy are the famous "sound-law experts"... please, would you
tell us (sound-law ignorant) what phonetic changes the Latin word
sessio (Eng. session; Serb. siđenje) has undergone?
DV
P.S.
Why are you avoiding the answer to my previous "pre-fixed" question?
Do not be afraid to say that you do not know what to say!
> >> > > similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
> >> > > (Ger. Bett).
>
> >> > Which is to say, none at all: no two of the three have the
> >> > same PGmc. or even PIE source.
>
> >> > > It means that the lengthened-grade form
>
> >> > <snicker>
>
> >> > Dressing up in mum's clothes now, are we?
>
> >> > [...]
>
> >> > > If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian
> >> > > govor-iti (speak) I hope you would be able to understand
> >> > > the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is used in building of stem
> >> > > words as well as an addition to the stem.
>
> >> > Obviously you meant <hablablablar>.
>
> >> Yes, I see. It's because "used in building of stem words"
> >> should be "used in bubbling of stream words".- Hide quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Marc
Don't forget
sor(a) - cel(estial)
sukuu - scoop
kooru - cold
tsukau - scout
dan - down
bikou - beak
furu - fall
kuru - cull
ada - other
and my personal favorite...
yaa! - yar!
Marc
Trond Engen
> Brian M. Scott skreiv:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:35:03 +0100, Trond Engen
>> <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
>> <news:goOdnU07i8a...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>>
For those who might wonder:
Bjorvand's main project is to explain the pluralic -a-stems based on the
IE colletive. He also goes into the early history of the -a-stems, and
even the reinterpretation that led to the occurence of the feminine
gender. To do so he first explores a large number of words.
It's the first book on historical linguistics that I ever bought (a
stray find at a sale some ten years ago), and I've read it a couple of
times. I think I get the general message, but I've had hard times trying
to grasp the details. I took this opportunity to pick it up again and
see if I'm getting wiser. I don't like the answer.
Bjorvand's argument is, of course, the other way around: These plurals
are more common in toponyms, and especially in toponyms that are named
with the generic term for a nearby natural formation, while the generic
terms that are part of names of the actual natural formations, OTOH,
seem to evolve along with grammar. Thus these secondary toponyms are
likely to be archaisms. What's more, for many toponyms it's not possible
to connect the plural to multiple natural formations, a fact that has
spurred a wide variety of explanations in the literature.
I think Bjorvand's suggesting that settlements were named with
collectives since they consisted of several homes. (My note: This might
of course at some point have been generalized to any toponym). Or
perhaps he's suggesting that the generic words for settlements were
feminines based in neuter and/or masculine collectives, and that the
names followed that class. E.g. <Tune> and <Uppsala> show that also the
words for settlement became feminine plurals in toponyms. And I think
they show that the collective is not due to the transition of the name
from a natural formation outside the settlement.
--
Trond Engen
- using sci.lang as a test audience
Paul J Kriha
Okay, yers in my post got swallowed, so it was *sedь.
Display this quote from Vasmer in UTF-8:
ORIGIN: Праслав. *sedьlo или *sedъlo (ввиду укр. -í-, а также русск., укр. -дл-),
родственно гот. sitls "сидение", д.-в.-н. sеʒʒаl "кресло", лат. sella "сидение",
греч. лакон. ἑλλά ̇ καθέδρα (Гесихий), галльск. -sedlon; с др. ступенью
вокализма: англос. sadol, д.-в.-н. satul, sаtаl "седло" (из *sotlo-, *sodtlo-),
далее связано с сиде́ть (Мейе, Ét. 419; Фик, KZ 44, 341; Траутман, ВSW 259;
Лиден, РВВ 15, 515; Вальде--Гофм. 2, 511). Неправильна реконструкция
праслав. *sedlo и предположение о калькировании д.-в.-н. sаtаl через Чехию,
вопреки Вайану (RЕS 12, 235), что опровергается укр. и ст.-слав.
свидетельствами. Лтш. sęgli (из *sedli) "седло" заимств. из слав.
(М.--Э. 3, 812; Траутман, там же).
>You and Brainy are the famous "sound-law experts"... please, would you
>tell us (sound-law ignorant) what phonetic changes the Latin word
>sessio (Eng. session; Serb. siđenje) has undergone?
Why should I care?
>DV
>
>P.S.
>
>Why are you avoiding the answer to my previous "pre-fixed" question?
>Do not be afraid to say that you do not know what to say!
Life's too short.
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
wrote:
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7d6ffea8-aac4-4900...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...>On Mar 13, 6:54 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> >wrote:
> >> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Why don't you try to find a job as a court jester?
Ars longa, vita brevis! :-)
DV
Paul J Kriha
>On Mar 14, 5:17 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:7d6ffea8-aac4-4900...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...>On Mar 13, 6:54 am,
"Paul J Kriha" ><paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>> >wrote:
[...]
It's not easy, I am just a lowly amateur and the world these days is full
of experienced clowns who parade their art around for free.
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:994118a2-62b1-40d3...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...>On Mar 14, 5:17 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> >wrote:
> >> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Nevertheless, why don't you concentrate on one subject and forget the
rest.
These questions (underneath) are still waiting for your answer:
1) I thought you have learned something from our earlier discussins
your brain is aborting any sound thinking "baby"! Slavic kuka, ugnuti,
pognuti are the same words as English hook and bend (German beugen).
Compare Serb. počinjati, Russ. начать, начинать; Slov. začínať, all
with meaning "begin", and you will "see" that these words are po-, na-
or za- prefixed. These verbs are connected to the nouns pogon (drive),
2) I know you are not as stupid as you look and that you are far more
Dušan Vukotić
> On Mar 15, 5:48 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
I see, Kriha is terrified!
It seems, you and copy/paste Brainy are suffering from the well known
drunkard-negation-syndrome; if you are drunk (stupid) enough that you
cannot grasp what the people are talking, you will apply the simplest
defense mechanism in order to protect your self-esteem; you will
constatly wave your hand in a negatory manner and mumble incessantly:
"It's nothing"!
DV
lora...@cs.com
> Brian M. Scott skreiv:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
> > <news:afe93d6f-5514-469e...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
> > in sci.lang:
>
> >> On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the
> >>> relation between Serbian word naseobina (settlement) and
> >>> English inhabitancy? In addition, what the words
> >>> neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in
> >>> common?
>
> > <Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
> > village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
> > far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
> > (Balto-)Slavic.
>
> > [...]
>
> >> You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be
> >> known that the -o- in naseobina is related to l, so the
> >> stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as
> >> -sel- and in Polish as -siedl-.
>
> > Two different roots, I think: the one with /d/ probably does
> > go with PGmc. *setlaz, German <siedeln>, etc., as you
> > suggest:
>
> >> So, the stem is probably a very old borrowing from
> >> Germanic into Slavic, and related to German siedeln.
Umm.. I disagree.
Baltic 'sedele' means 'a place to sit'
And Baltic is more closely related to 'germanic' than is Slavic.
And Baltic is more closely related to Slavic than is 'germanic'.
> This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention ON/OIc
> <salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl> n., etc.,
> find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell that it's not
> possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or s-stem. They cite
> Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil" as cognates, leading
> back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to take Slav. <selo> <
> *sed-lo-. They recount, but reject, the objection that the semantic
> connection between the Germanic and Baltic words is thin. For some
> reason they don't mention any semantic problem with Lat. <solum>.
>
> Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective pair? Bjorvand
> (1994) doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his example, I
> think that a neuter *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a
> non-individualizing collective feminine plural *sal(j)az.
Very nice synthesis... 'salasa' means 'a collection'; Latv. ..
Perhaps the origin of 'sala' (village).
> This would
> logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl. "grassland" is
> derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land". (The feminine plural of <sel>,
> <seljar>, is known from toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of
> neuters.) The dominant forms of this feminine plural are equal to the
> masculine and might in turn have yielded an analogous mascculine <salr>.
> This is not as far-fetched as it may sound, since it happened to several
> words, e.g. <óss> "rivermouth", which has been a masculine in Ins.
> Scsnd. and W. Norw. for a long time. (Bjorvand, BTW, takes Lat. <o:ra>
> f. "rim, coast" as a creation from the collective feminine plural of
> <o:s> "mouth".) Baltic has lost the neuter and would have replaced the
> old neuter singulars with secondary feminines.
Why this concern over gender anyway?
The roots are of greater concern..
'Osa' is Latv. for 'river mouth', also.
And also looks to be related to the Latin 'ostia'.
> The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".
'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.
> think one would need a verbal noun *sVl- "taking" > "farmland", perhaps
> surviving in Lat. <solum>, and take the a-stems as derivations meaning
> something like "house on farmland". But now I'm far out.
>
> It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I suppose
> it can be done, but I don't know how.
Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..
Trond Engen
> On Mar 11, 4:35 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> Brian M. Scott skreiv:
>>
>>> [<Craoibhi...@gmail.com>:]
>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Could anyone [...] explain [...] what the words neighbour, Ger.
>>>>> Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in common?
>>>
>>> <Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
>>> village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
>>> far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
>>> (Balto-)Slavic.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention
>> ON/OIc <salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl>
>> n., etc., find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell
>> that it's not possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or
>> s-stem. They cite Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil"
>> as cognates, leading back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to
>> take Slav. <selo> < *sed-lo-. They recount, but reject, the
>> objection that the semantic connection between the Germanic and
>> Baltic words is thin. For some reason they don't mention any
>> semantic problem with Lat. <solum>.
>>
>> Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective pair?
>> Bjorvand (1994) doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his
>> example, I think that a neuter *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a
>> non-individualizing collective feminine plural *sal(j)az.
>
> Very nice synthesis... 'salasa' means 'a collection'; Latv. ..
> Perhaps the origin of 'sala' (village).
If, and this is a big if, 'salasa' is related, I'd expect it to be a
fairly recent singular based on 'sala' or on the collective plural
*salas "takings, possessions". Is -sa to a feminine or -a to a plural a
regular derivational ending?
>> This would logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl.
>> "grassland" is derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land". (The
>> feminine plural of <sel>, <seljar>, is known from toponyms, as are
>> many other feminine plurals of neuters.) The dominant forms of this
>> feminine plural are equal to the masculine and might in turn have
>> yielded an analogous mascculine <salr>. This is not as far-fetched
>> as it may sound, since it happened to several words, e.g. <óss>
>> "rivermouth", which has been a masculine in Ins. Scsnd. and W. Norw.
>> for a long time. (Bjorvand, BTW, takes Lat. <o:ra> f. "rim, coast"
>> as a creation from the collective feminine plural of <o:s> "mouth".)
>> Baltic has lost the neuter and would have replaced the old neuter
>> singulars with secondary feminines.
>
> Why this concern over gender anyway?
> The roots are of greater concern..
Because disturbing details have to be explained. Now the difference in
gender and semantics between the Germanic and Baltic forms seemed to fit
the hypothesis of the collective feminine plural. If so, the disturbing
differences are explained and entirely regular, and both the common
etymology and the hypothesis are strengthened.
> 'Osa' is Latv. for 'river mouth', also.
> And also looks to be related to the Latin 'ostia'.
Yes, that's part of the explanation. I was too short.
>> The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".
>
> 'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.
I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" > "village"
and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".
>> think one would need a verbal noun *sVl- "taking" > "farmland",
>> perhaps surviving in Lat. <solum>, and take the a-stems as
>> derivations meaning something like "house on farmland". But now I'm
>> far out.
>>
>> It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I
>> suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.
>
> Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..
Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to the
Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and the stem
vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent formation from the same
verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More disturbing details.
--
Trond Engen
- men Sala, Sala Palmer, Sala Palmer er pen, har alltid vært feminin
lora...@cs.com
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:35:03 +0100, Trond Engen
> <news:goOdnU07i8a...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>
> > Brian M. Scott skreiv:
> >> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT),
Too bad neither is a native speaker.
Latvian also alternatively has 'sala' as 'island', but <sálti> imo,
is off base; different roots.
'Saldit' means 'to freeze'; and frozen water moves (very) slowly.
The closest possibility following 'salti' appears to be
'stalti' ..'lofty', 'stately', 'tall', or 'shapely'.. but is more
distant.
Trond Engen
> On Mar 18, 1:55 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>> lorad...@cs.com skreiv:
> Nominative sing.feminine for 'sala'.
> Same for 'salasa'.. although the related 'salashnas' is atypical
> ('as').
OK. No way to derive it as sala-sa or salas-a, then.
[...]
>>>> The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".
>>>
>>> 'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.
>>
>> I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" >
>> "village" and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".
>
> 'Gather' is the most I can offer.
[Moving up:]
> PS: Upon looking more closely.. the Latv.'salasa' is a compound... It
> is a construct; from the perfective 'sa' + 'lasiit' meaning 'to
> gather together'.
That makes sense, and I should have guessed. The originally strong verb
'lese' < *las- is used for "gather (fruits etc.) (arch.); interpret
(signs); read". The multiple meanings may be due to a calque based on
Lat. <lect->. The weak verb 'lære' "teach" is possibly from a causative
*laisijan- or some such, in which case the calque is old.
'Salašnas' above is a starightforward derivation with the ending -nas.
"Collectedness"?
> This may not preclude any direct genetic relationship as regards
> 'germanic' or Slavic (sala/selo) related words.. but does reduce the
> possiblity of the existence of any previous root having been common
> to all three on independent tracks (*pie).
The Baltic and Germanic forms based on *sal- seem to be close
correspondences. Salasa is based on *las-, which also has a close
correspondence in Germanic.
>>>> It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I
>>>> suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.
>>>
>>> Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..
>>
>> Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to the
>> Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and the stem
>> vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent formation from the
>> same verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More disturbing details.
>
> Only disturbing if you adhere to that formulaic recepie.
Without regularity, there's nothing.
> PPS: interesting happenstance: 'Upsala' means 'river island' or
> 'river town' in Baltic.. can I presume a meaning of 'high town' in
> Old Swedish?
"Uptown" or "inland town", perhaps, if we accept the collective meaning
of the feminine plural. A more traditional explanation would be "the
upper (or upland) halls", with some ad-hoc fix added to account for the
feminine. 'Upp' is like its English cognate 'up', a directional adverb
with a literal, geographical meaning.
--
Trond Engen
- saler opp
Dušan Vukotić
> Too bad neither is a native speaker.
> Latvian also alternatively has 'sala' as 'island', but <sálti> imo,
> is off base; different roots.
> 'Saldit' means 'to freeze'; and frozen water moves (very) slowly.
Would you mind explaining the etymology of the Baltic word "saldit/
salt"?
DV
lora...@cs.com
Oops .. should have been more precise.. 'salti' does exist as a
conjugation of 'saldiit'
And frozen water does produce 'islands' of a sort.. but seems to be a
long-shot.
lora...@cs.com
> > Same for 'salasa'.. although the related 'salashnas' is atypical
> > ('as').
>
> OK. No way to derive it as sala-sa or salas-a, then.
>
> [...]
> >>>> The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".
>
> >>> 'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.
>
> >> I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" >
> >> "village" and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".
>
> > 'Gather' is the most I can offer.
>
> [Moving up:]
>
> > PS: Upon looking more closely.. the Latv.'salasa' is a compound... It
> > is a construct; from the perfective 'sa' + 'lasiit' meaning 'to
> > gather together'.
>
> That makes sense, and I should have guessed. The originally strong verb
> 'lese'
No. The original verb root is 'las'.
> *las- is used for "gather (fruits etc.) (arch.); interpret
> (signs); read". The multiple meanings may be due to a calque based on
> Lat. <lect->.
???
No evidence of calqing is evidenced.
And certainly not from geographically remote Latin.
> The weak verb 'lære' "teach" is possibly from a causative
> *laisijan- or some such, in which case the calque is old.
???
Wrong.
It is from the same Baltic root; 'lasiit'.
Fruits are not being gathered here - letters are - to form meaning.
Latv. 'Lasit' (also) means 'to read'.. ie. 'reading' = 'teaching'
> 'Salašnas' above is a starightforward derivation with the ending -nas.
> "Collectedness"?
A 'collection of leftovers' is the current understanding.
' *salasniiba' would be 'collectedness'.
As I said 'salašnas' is atypical and has a Lithuanian flavor to it...
so to speak.
> > This may not preclude any direct genetic relationship as regards
> > 'germanic' or Slavic (sala/selo) related words.. but does reduce the
> > possiblity of the existence of any previous root having been common
> > to all three on independent tracks (*pie).
>
> The Baltic and Germanic forms based on *sal- seem to be close
> correspondences. Salasa is based on *las-, which also has a close
> correspondence in Germanic.
That doesn't surprise me at all.. given geographic placement.
> >>>> It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I
> >>>> suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.
>
> >>> Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..
>
> >> Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to the
> >> Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and the stem
> >> vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent formation from the
> >> same verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More disturbing details.
>
> > Only disturbing if you adhere to that formulaic recepie.
>
> Without regularity, there's nothing.
Oh, I know.. order/understanding makes working backwards much easier.
But I do not think that a sufficiently complete data base containing
all variables has been amassed in order to regularize patterns into
conversion laws as yet.
The data boundaries that *PIE have been constructed from are way too
small and unverified in order to confidently rely upon that construct
in forming extrapolations to be imposed upon reality. Not wishing to
be too critical, I would say that you too, are waxing a Mercedes that
doesn't yet have much under its hood...
You will have some limited successes within selected languages..and it
will look prettier.. but it still won't go very far.
Consider a small yet necessary corpus of data.. Latvian has over 253
dialects within its limited boundaries.
Has that data been incorporated into the *PIE data base? Now multiply
that missing requirement by all other IE languages (past and present)
and you should see that a body of knowledge necessary to make
confident inferences has not yet been amassed into discrete arrays.
Until such completeness has been achieved, small limited pieces of the
puzzle remain the most promising prizes..
Which is why I have been discussing 'sala' with you.
> > PPS: interesting happenstance: 'Upsala' means 'river island' or
> > 'river town' in Baltic.. can I presume a meaning of 'high town' in
> > Old Swedish?
>
> "Uptown" or "inland town", perhaps, if we accept the collective meaning
> of the feminine plural. A more traditional explanation would be "the
> upper (or upland) halls", with some ad-hoc fix added to account for the
> feminine.
Not if 'sala' was a feminine gendered noun to begin with.
'Ostia' was feminine too, you know.
> 'Upp' is like its English cognate 'up', a directional adverb
> with a literal, geographical meaning.
I see.. just like 'up a river'... or 'up (a river) town'.
lora...@cs.com
No problem..
Standard:'saldet'.. 'to cool down'.. (usually to a frozen state).
(Chill water too much and you get (ice) islands - 'salas'.. of
course)
Vernacular; 'salt'
'Saldeti' and 'salti' are respective conjugations.
Standard: 'iesaldet' - 'to freeze'
Standard: 'iesalt' - 'to freeze in' (to make ice bound)
[(ie+ salas+*lande)? (would mean 'ice bound' +*land)?]
[Old Norse: <íss> ice, icicle [Pokorny 2: ei-s-, ei-n- :: ice,
frost] ]
Standard: 'sasaldejs' - 'chilled person/chilled masculine gendered
thing'
Vernacular: 'sasalis' - 'chilled person/chilled masculine gendered
thing'
Bonus confusing info:
Standard: 'saldinat' - 'to sweeten'
'saldudens' - 'freshwater'
'iesals' - 'malt' (which is sweet)
And to top it off: 'saldejums' - 'icecream' ... which is both frozen
*and* sweet (!)
'Salt' as in table salt is just 'sals'
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Excuse me if this is already obvious to both participants, but
"saldeti" is clearly from the Balto-Slavic root -led- "ice", with
prefix sa-, and thus has nothing to do with any putative root *sal-.
Ross Clark
Paul J Kriha
news:ce4b8c71-1efe-4588...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Of course, sure enough he is conflating the old -led- (ice)
and -slad- (sweet).
The contemporary Czech "led" means ice, and "slad" means
sweet (especially sweet beer malt). If I really wanted to annoy
lorad I'd claim that Slovak and Czech are older and more archaic
then Baltic languages.
pjk
lora...@cs.com
Yes yes, I know.. it was a major stretch.
But pidgin has been known to have occurred elsewhere.
I did not aver anything - just noted phonological coincidences.
Dušan Vukotić
> Excuse me if this is already obvious to both participants, but
> "saldeti" is clearly from the Balto-Slavic root -led- "ice", with
> prefix sa-, and thus has nothing to do with any putative root *sal-.
>
> Ross Clark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Excellent Ross!
This is exactlly what I expected Lorad to answer; but, obviously, he
missed the "target".
In fact, the "root" iz not led- but *glad- (hlad-); (Serbian gladak
[smooth, sleek; Russ. гладкий; Cz. hladký]; hlad shade, hladan/leden
[cold, frigid, chill, kool; Russ. холод cold; Cz. chlad]); from Slavic
okolo (around, about), kolanje (circulation), glađenje (stroking),
klizanje (skating, slide, gliding; cf. Eng. glide and cold!).
DV
lora...@cs.com
wrote:
> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:ce4b8c71-1efe-4588...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Mar 20, 12:09 pm, lorad...@cs.com wrote:
No I wasn't. Please re-read.
> The contemporary Czech "led" means ice, and "slad" means
> sweet (especially sweet beer malt).
Again that strange Slavic consonantal flip;
'Vald' to ''vlad' ... and now 'sald' to 'slad'.
> If I really wanted to annoy
> lorad I'd claim that Slovak and Czech are older and more archaic
> then Baltic languages.
You could say that.. but then you would have to prove it.
Tell you what...
Let's use the oldest (most archaic) latinized Slavic text in
existence; the Freising manuscript..
Give me the following Slovak and Czech 'cognates' or 'equivalents' of
the following terms written.
Make it convincing and I might believe you:
(Use http://nl.ijs.si/e-zrc/bs/html/bsTR.html as an excellent resouce)
božijem
pravdnym
rabe
hoćų
byvši
rotě
zavisti
měga posta
nebese
tělo
sųnt
v cirkvah
vsty
balij
želězny
lěpoćam
v tatbinah
komuždo
Dušan Vukotić
>
> božijem
> pravdnym
> rabe
> hoćų
> byvši
> rotě
> zavisti
> měga posta
> nebese
> tělo
> sųnt
> v cirkvah
> vsty
> balij
> želězny
> lěpoćam
> v tatbinah
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would say that Baltic is a variant of Slavic with a speech
defect :-)
DV
lora...@cs.com
> On Mar 20, 2:26 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > Excuse me if this is already obvious to both participants, but
> > "saldeti" is clearly from the Balto-Slavic root -led- "ice", with
> > prefix sa-, and thus has nothing to do with any putative root *sal-.
>
> > Ross Clark- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Excellent Ross!
> This is exactlly what I expected Lorad to answer; but, obviously, he
> missed the "target".
Hmm..You did not ask about the Baltic root 'led' - 'ice' (neither did
Clark)
You asked about 'salti'.. do not confuse yourself needlessly.
What Clark said is neither here nor there as regards 'saldiit'.. and
was off topic.
(Cheap tagential thrills not allowed)
> In fact, the "root" iz not led- but *glad- (hlad-); (Serbian gladak
> [smooth, sleek; Russ. гладкий; Cz. hladký]; hlad shade, hladan/leden
> [cold, frigid, chill, kool; Russ. холод cold; Cz. chlad]); from Slavic
> okolo (around, about), kolanje (circulation), glađenje (stroking),
> klizanje (skating, slide, gliding; cf. Eng. glide and cold!).
>
> DV
I see.. your Serbian derivative 'hlad' combined with Russian glad
'stroking' in the shade gives you all your necessary confirmation for
an original primal 'Serbian exemplar. You are simply amazing....
Especially since you (somehow) omit mentioning Serbian :
ice - n. 'led' - (same as Baltic)
ice - v. 'zaledti'
freeze v. 'zalediti' (from Baltic 'saldeti')
freeeze up - 'zalediti' ' '
Just so you don't forget your Serbian vocabulary next time, try this
place:
http://slavicnet.com/pls/cgi/web3.pre_search?in_word=ice&direction=1&x=57&y=11
Dušan Vukotić
Do not be ridiculous!
Ross mentioned -led- (ice) as a Balto-Slavic stem and its sa- prefixed
forms (s-lediti, za-lediti)
I didn't mention many other words, like Serb gleđ (enamel) for
instance; or the verb gledati (look), which came from the same Gon-bel
basis as led (ice) or gleđ (enamel); cf. Slav. okolo (around); Serb.
syntagm "kliziti po-gledom" (klizeći po-gled; gliding look). Compare
Eng. glide and Serb. gled-anje (watching, looking). Moreover, compare
Serb. gledanje (looking) with Eng. looking! Do you see anything in
common between these two words? Let me help you: AS ge-lócian and
Russ. глаза/glaza (eyes; Ger. begleiten [attend] = Serb. pogledati
[look after, attend]). Finally, can you understand the relation
between Russian glaza (eyes) and English glass?
There are thousands of words that are derived from the primordial Gon-
Bel basis (kolo; circle) and all of them are easy explainable if you
know how to use my HSF - Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula. ;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Do not be ridiculous!
Ross mentioned -led- (ice) as a Balto-Slavic stem and its sa- prefixed
forms (s-lediti, za-lediti)
I didn't mention many other words, like Serb gleđ (enamel) for
instance; or the verb gledati (look), which came from the same Gon-bel
basis as led (ice) or gleđ (enamel); cf. Slav. okolo (around); Serb.
syntagm "kliziti po-gledom" (klizeći po-gled; gliding look). Compare
Eng. glide and Serb. gled-anje (watching, looking). Moreover, compare
Serb. gledanje (looking) with Eng. looking! Do you see anything in
common between these two words? Let me help you: AS ge-lócian and
Russ. глаза/glaza (eyes; Ger. begleiten [attend] = Serb. pogledati
[look after, attend]). Finally, can you understand the relation
between Russian glaza (eyes) and English glass?
There are thousands of words that are derived from the primordial Gon-
Bel basis (kolo; circle) and all of them are easy explainable if you
know how to use my HSF - Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula. ;-)
DV
P.S.
Google seems to have become a glutton monster (Serb. gladan hungry)
who its our messages; it swallowed a few of my earlier posts.
Trond Engen
> On Mar 19, 6:50 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>> lorad...@cs.com skreiv:
>>> Nominative sing.feminine for 'sala'.
>>> Same for 'salasa'.. although the related 'salashnas' is atypical
>>> ('as').
>> OK. No way to derive it as sala-sa or salas-a, then.
>>
>> [...]
>>>>>> The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".
>>>>> 'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.
>>>> I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" >
>>>> "village" and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".
>>> 'Gather' is the most I can offer.
>> [Moving up:]
>>
>>> PS: Upon looking more closely.. the Latv.'salasa' is a compound... It
>>> is a construct; from the perfective 'sa' + 'lasiit' meaning 'to
>>> gather together'.
>> That makes sense, and I should have guessed. The originally strong verb
>> 'lese'
>
> No. The original verb root is 'las'.
It all got confusing because I somehow thought it obvious that I
switched to Germanic. But I know the verb root:
>> *las- is used for "gather (fruits etc.) (arch.); interpret
>> (signs); read". The multiple meanings may be due to a calque based on
>> Lat. <lect->.
>
> ???
> No evidence of calqing is evidenced.
> And certainly not from geographically remote Latin.
I'm not certain of its being a calque. The "pick up and put together"
metaphor may have been obvious more than once.
>> The weak verb 'lære' "teach" is possibly from a causative
>> *laisijan- or some such, in which case the calque is old.
>
> ???
> Wrong.
> It is from the same Baltic root; 'lasiit'.
> Fruits are not being gathered here - letters are - to form meaning.
> Latv. 'Lasit' (also) means 'to read'.. ie. 'reading' = 'teaching'
I know the semantics. My point was supposed to be that 'lære' "teach",
if related, is a very old causative, and this goes to show that the
metaphorical meaning is at least as old.
>> 'Salašnas' above is a starightforward derivation with the ending
>> -nas. "Collectedness"?
>
> A 'collection of leftovers' is the current understanding.
> ' *salasniiba' would be 'collectedness'.
> As I said 'salašnas' is atypical and has a Lithuanian flavor to it...
> so to speak.
>
>>> This may not preclude any direct genetic relationship as regards
>>> 'germanic' or Slavic (sala/selo) related words.. but does reduce the
>>> possiblity of the existence of any previous root having been common
>>> to all three on independent tracks (*pie).
>>
>> The Baltic and Germanic forms based on *sal- seem to be close
>> correspondences. Salasa is based on *las-, which also has a close
>> correspondence in Germanic.
>
> That doesn't surprise me at all.. given geographic placement.
It shouldn't surprise anyone. But there's a leap from an isogloss once
in a while to the kind of systematic relationship that would suggest a
closer genetic relationship than with the other branches.
>>>>>> It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I
>>>>>> suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..
>>>>
>>>> Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to
>>>> the Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and
>>>> the stem vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent
>>>> formation from the same verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More
>>>> disturbing details.
>>>
>>> Only disturbing if you adhere to that formulaic recepie.
>>
>> Without regularity, there's nothing.
>
> Oh, I know.. order/understanding makes working backwards much easier.
> But I do not think that a sufficiently complete data base containing
> all variables has been amassed in order to regularize patterns into
> conversion laws as yet.
>
> The data boundaries that *PIE have been constructed from are way too
> small and unverified in order to confidently rely upon that construct
> in forming extrapolations to be imposed upon reality. Not wishing to
> be too critical, I would say that you too, are waxing a Mercedes that
> doesn't yet have much under its hood...
> You will have some limited successes within selected languages..and
> it will look prettier.. but it still won't go very far.
And how does looking for a systematic framework instead of pointing at
random similarities equal polishing the surface?
> Consider a small yet necessary corpus of data.. Latvian has over 253
> dialects within its limited boundaries.
> Has that data been incorporated into the *PIE data base? Now multiply
> that missing requirement by all other IE languages (past and present)
> and you should see that a body of knowledge necessary to make
> confident inferences has not yet been amassed into discrete arrays.
At least for some languages the etymological dictionaries treat dialect
forms. I don't know why this hasn't been done for Latvian. No systematic
19th century lexicography?
> Until such completeness has been achieved, small limited pieces of
> the puzzle remain the most promising prizes..
> Which is why I have been discussing 'sala' with you.
The interesting thing about 'sala', from my point of view, is that it
looks like something more than a limited piece. It's part of a system.
>>> PPS: interesting happenstance: 'Upsala' means 'river island' or
>>> 'river town' in Baltic.. can I presume a meaning of 'high town' in
>>> Old Swedish?
>> "Uptown" or "inland town", perhaps, if we accept the collective
>> meaning of the feminine plural. A more traditional explanation would
>> be "the upper (or upland) halls", with some ad-hoc fix added to
>> account for the feminine.
>
> Not if 'sala' was a feminine gendered noun to begin with.
It wasn't. There's a broad range of doubtless masculine and neuter
Germanic words that historically took feminine gender only in the plural
(in some circumstances), 'Sal'/'sel' fits the pattern. What's more,
Baltic merged the neuter into the feminine, so it's far easier to
account for neuters becoming feminine in Baltic than feminines becoming
neuters in Germanic. (Actually, Bjorvand seems to suggest that, while
most other branches developed a split between the neuter and feminine
genders, Baltic took the replacement of the neuter singulars a bit
farther and merged it all into the feminine at an early stage.)
> 'Ostia' was feminine too, you know.
'Ostia' is a derivation. 'Os' is a neuter.
>> 'Upp' is like its English cognate 'up', a directional adverb with a
>> literal, geographical meaning.
>
> I see.. just like 'up a river'... or 'up (a river) town'.
It's no cognate of Latvian 'up' "river".
--
Trond Engen
- following his agender
Trond Engen
> lora...@cs.com skreiv:
>
>> Consider a small yet necessary corpus of data.. Latvian has over 253
>> dialects within its limited boundaries.
>> Has that data been incorporated into the *PIE data base? Now
>> multiply that missing requirement by all other IE languages (past
>> and present) and you should see that a body of knowledge necessary
>> to make confident inferences has not yet been amassed into discrete
>> arrays.
>
> At least for some languages the etymological dictionaries treat
> dialect forms. I don't know why this hasn't been done for Latvian. No
> systematic 19th century lexicography?
Such work, both lexicography and reconstruction, should preferably be
done by native speakers. Another, but evil, thought is that Baltic
historical linguistics is stuck with a virginity complex. Any suggestion
of a history of change is a threat to a carefully built image of
unspoiled youth.
To rescue myself from this quagmire of prejudice, I'm looking for an
introduction to Baltic linguistics. Any suggestions?
--
Trond Engen
- leaving mainstream to follow Schmalstieg?
Paul J Kriha
news:eede1b60-b93e-4f0a...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...>[...]
The language of the Freising document is Old Slovenian which
is not quite the same as Old Czech which I did a little bit of at school.
Without context it is impossible for me to correctly identify all
words in your list. Often one needs to be sure of the declension
of the word and its context and function in the sentence before one
can correctly identify it.
As I don't have an ASCII (or any other complete) version of the Freising
manuscript, the following are just off-the-cuff modern Cz cognates
I've managed to come up with without identifying individual words in
the original document.
božijem = božím
pravdnym = pravdivým? (I need context)
rabe = ? (need context, can't identify declension)
hoćų = hoci (or ho, or jeho)
byvši = byvší
rotě = ? (need context)
zavisti = závisti
měga posta = mého (need context to identify "posta")
nebese = nebesa (or nebes depending on the case, need context)
tělo = tělo
sųnt = jest? jsou? (need context)
v cirkvah = v církvích
vsty = transgressive vstavaje? (need context)
balij = ?
želězny = železný
lěpoćam = ?
v tatbinah = ?
komuždo = komukoli (arch. komukdo or komuco?)
pjk
Paul J Kriha
Pay extra attention to all pre-16th century Baltic documents and
manuscripts.
> Trond Engen
> - leaving mainstream to follow Schmalstieg?
Which Schmalstieg is that? Who is it you are following? Virtual reality
of Dr. Dieter Schmalstieg, Schmalstieg's Pedal Tractor, or, I know,
I bet it's William Schmalstieg who is said to "draw parallels between
the Tokharian and Baltic subfamilies of IE languages".
I hope, it's not F.C. Schmalstieg who writes about the "Effects of
Postnatal Dexamethasone on Oxygen Toxicity in Neonatal Rats"?
pjk
Trond Engen
> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> news:8qGdnfKNEaT...@telenor.com...
>
>> To rescue myself from this quagmire of prejudice, I'm looking for an
>> introduction to Baltic linguistics. Any suggestions?
>
> Pay extra attention to all pre-16th century Baltic documents and
> manuscripts.
The Elbing Prussian vocabulary? Done that. I think what I really should
have asked is "Does anyone know when the Routledge volume on Baltic will
come out?"
>> Trond Engen
>> - leaving mainstream to follow Schmalstieg?
>
> Which Schmalstieg is that? Who is it you are following? Virtual
> reality of Dr. Dieter Schmalstieg, Schmalstieg's Pedal Tractor, or, I
> know, I bet it's William Schmalstieg who is said to "draw parallels
> between the Tokharian and Baltic subfamilies of IE languages".
That one. Pretty much everything that's written about Baltic seems to
carry his name. I was trying to make a multilingual joke on the name,
though, but I think it would have been better if I'd said "going for
something off-Broadway like Schmalstieg".
There's also a long-time mayor of Hanover, Germany, who for some reason
is the only German Wikipedia entry for that surname.
> I hope, it's not F.C. Schmalstieg who writes about the "Effects of
> Postnatal Dexamethasone on Oxygen Toxicity in Neonatal Rats"?
Neonatal? Don't they speak Afrikaans there?
--
Trond Engen
- in iambic dexameter
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>
> > "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> > news:8qGdnfKNEaT...@telenor.com...
> >
> >> To rescue myself from this quagmire of prejudice, I'm looking for an
> >> introduction to Baltic linguistics. Any suggestions?
> >
> > Pay extra attention to all pre-16th century Baltic documents and
> > manuscripts.
>
> The Elbing Prussian vocabulary? Done that.
Sorry, that was a flippant comment I made hinting at not much
of anything written in the old Lithuanian, Latvian, or Estonian
before the 17th century.
> I think what I really should
> have asked is "Does anyone know when the Routledge volume on Baltic will
> come out?"
>
> >> Trond Engen
> >> - leaving mainstream to follow Schmalstieg?
> >
> > Which Schmalstieg is that? Who is it you are following? Virtual
> > reality of Dr. Dieter Schmalstieg, Schmalstieg's Pedal Tractor, or, I
> > know, I bet it's William Schmalstieg who is said to "draw parallels
> > between the Tokharian and Baltic subfamilies of IE languages".
>
> That one. Pretty much everything that's written about Baltic seems to
> carry his name. I was trying to make a multilingual joke on the name,
> though, but I think it would have been better if I'd said "going for
> something off-Broadway like Schmalstieg".
>
> There's also a long-time mayor of Hanover, Germany, who for some reason
> is the only German Wikipedia entry for that surname.
>
> > I hope, it's not F.C. Schmalstieg who writes about the "Effects of
> > Postnatal Dexamethasone on Oxygen Toxicity in Neonatal Rats"?
>
> Neonatal? Don't they speak Afrikaans there?
Well, it could be Indonesian or even Brazilian Portugese.
> Trond Engen
> - in iambic dexameter
pjk
- still sorry it wasn't Schmalstieg of the Pedal Tractor fame
Trond Engen
> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> news:47e3d98b$0$8177$8404...@news.wineasy.se...
>
>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>>
>>> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
>>> news:8qGdnfKNEaT...@telenor.com...
>>>
>>>> To rescue myself from this quagmire of prejudice, I'm looking for
>>>> an introduction to Baltic linguistics. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> Pay extra attention to all pre-16th century Baltic documents and
>>> manuscripts.
>>
>> The Elbing Prussian vocabulary? Done that.
>
> Sorry, that was a flippant comment I made hinting at not much
> of anything written in the old Lithuanian, Latvian, or Estonian
> before the 17th century.
I know. Just once in a while I take something literally. This time it
was to rephrase my question.
[Estonian is Finnic. It's somewhat interesting that Tacitus mentioned
the Aesti as living east of the Vistula and speaking a language similar
to that of Britain. Whatever he may have meant by that -- perhaps just
that it didn't sound Germanic.]
>>> Which Schmalstieg is that? Who is it you are following? Virtual
>>> reality of Dr. Dieter Schmalstieg, Schmalstieg's Pedal Tractor, or,
>>> I know, I bet it's William Schmalstieg who is said to "draw
>>> parallels between the Tokharian and Baltic subfamilies of IE
>>> languages".
>>
>> That one. Pretty much everything that's written about Baltic seems
>> to carry his name. [...]
>>
>> There's also a long-time mayor of Hanover, Germany, who for some
>> reason is the only German Wikipedia entry for that surname.
>>
>>> I hope, it's not F.C. Schmalstieg who writes about the "Effects of
>>> Postnatal Dexamethasone on Oxygen Toxicity in Neonatal Rats"?
>>
>> Neonatal? Don't they speak Afrikaans there?
>
> Well, it could be Indonesian or even Brazilian Portugese.
That's why they're called Prenatal, Postnatal and Neonatal. But which is
which? A search for "Prenatal language" gives just one hit with some
hint of geography, "Euphoric tones and Eastern chimes resonate like
prenatal language [...]", so that would probably be the Indonesian. For
"Postnatal language", I get several instances of "Cocaine, cigarettes
linked to postnatal language delay", two products of plants that are
indigenous to South America. That leaves us with Neonatal in Africa.
> pjk
> - still sorry it wasn't Schmalstieg of the Pedal Tractor fame
The real shame is that they aren't all the same guy. We should merge
them into a Breitschtieg.
--
Trond Engen
- for a simpler "Who is who?"
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
> > "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> > news:47e3d98b$0$8177$8404...@news.wineasy.se...
> >> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
> >>> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> >>> news:8qGdnfKNEaT...@telenor.com...
> >>>
> >>>> To rescue myself from this quagmire of prejudice, I'm looking for
> >>>> an introduction to Baltic linguistics. Any suggestions?
> >>>
> >>> Pay extra attention to all pre-16th century Baltic documents and
> >>> manuscripts.
> >>
> >> The Elbing Prussian vocabulary? Done that.
> >
> > Sorry, that was a flippant comment I made hinting at not much
> > of anything written in the old Lithuanian, Latvian, or Estonian
> > before the 17th century.
>
> I know. Just once in a while I take something literally. This time it
> was to rephrase my question.
>
> [Estonian is Finnic. It's somewhat interesting that Tacitus mentioned
> the Aesti as living east of the Vistula and speaking a language similar
> to that of Britain. Whatever he may have meant by that -- perhaps just
> that it didn't sound Germanic.]
It's amazing how studiously uninterested in anything other than
Latin or Greek were most of the Romans. Their comments were
often so pathetically useless. Was it Tacitus who once commented
on a remote "Scythian" territory. He noticed that the farmer-like
"Scythians" couldn't understand at all the other nearby war-like
"Scythians". If he was right about them not being able to understand
each other at all then they were likely to belong to different language
(sub-)families. One or perhaps either group were not real Scythians
at all.
> >>> Which Schmalstieg is that? Who is it you are following? Virtual
> >>> reality of Dr. Dieter Schmalstieg, Schmalstieg's Pedal Tractor, or,
> >>> I know, I bet it's William Schmalstieg who is said to "draw
> >>> parallels between the Tokharian and Baltic subfamilies of IE
> >>> languages".
> >>
> >> That one. Pretty much everything that's written about Baltic seems
> >> to carry his name. [...]
> >>
> >> There's also a long-time mayor of Hanover, Germany, who for some
> >> reason is the only German Wikipedia entry for that surname.
> >>
> >>> I hope, it's not F.C. Schmalstieg who writes about the "Effects of
> >>> Postnatal Dexamethasone on Oxygen Toxicity in Neonatal Rats"?
> >>
> >> Neonatal? Don't they speak Afrikaans there?
> >
> > Well, it could be Indonesian or even Brazilian Portugese.
>
> That's why they're called Prenatal, Postnatal and Neonatal. But which is
> which? A search for "Prenatal language" gives just one hit with some
> hint of geography, "Euphoric tones and Eastern chimes resonate like
> prenatal language [...]", so that would probably be the Indonesian. For
> "Postnatal language", I get several instances of "Cocaine, cigarettes
> linked to postnatal language delay", two products of plants that are
> indigenous to South America. That leaves us with Neonatal in Africa.
>
> > pjk
> > - still sorry it wasn't Schmalstieg of the Pedal Tractor fame
>
> The real shame is that they aren't all the same guy. We should merge
> them into a Breitschtieg.
Breitgrinsen :-)
-scht- in German? Some old French borrowing?
BTW those Breitstiegs were of course the ehemalig Holzstiegs.
> Trond Engen
> - for a simpler "Who is who?"
pjk
- figuring out who's who with a regular help from Gnaedinger's method of
hummed trancemogrifying linguocircumambulatory hyperthurification.
Trond Engen
> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> news:47e40949$0$8165$8404...@news.wineasy.se...
>
>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>>
>>> - still sorry it wasn't Schmalstieg of the Pedal Tractor fame
>>
>> The real shame is that they aren't all the same guy. We should merge
>> them into a Breitschtieg.
>
> -scht- in German? Some old French borrowing?
Nah. Norwegian Überdeutch. I think I write <ch> after <s> by default.
--
Trond Engen
- schpiekink Tschörmän laik ä nätif -- Nohrvitschän
Trond Engen
> Nah. Norwegian Überdeutch. I think I write <ch> after <s> by default.
But I can do without the s, apparently.
--
Trond Engen
- überdeutlich, ... -lisch, ...-lich!
Paul J Kriha
> Trond Engen skreiv:
>
> > Nah. Norwegian Überdeutch. I think I write <ch> after <s> by default.
>
> But I can do without the s, apparently.
I knew it, I said that before, you do have francophile gremlins
in your keyboard.
OK, I translate - Norvídz^jan Ýbrdojc^ - that should drive all gremlins potty.
pjk