Venedi
Trond Engen
etc. originally denoted the speakers of a separate, long extinct, IE
branch in what is now the Western Slavic countries and Eastern Germany.
There are some passages in the works of the early geographers that might
be interpreted that way, and the "urheimats" I've seen assigned to
Germanic, Slavic, and Baltic seem to leave this area void. Is there any
research into toponyms, phonology, or whatever, indicating a common
substratum in these areas?
--
Trond Engen
- introducing wendy to Neverland
Peter T. Daniels
Can you get to the 1994 Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics, ed.
Asher & Simpson? Eric Hamp's article on Indo-European mentions some
posited substrates, and gives a reference to an article where he
discusses them in slightly more detail.
Trond Engen
> On Jan 25, 7:54 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> I've come across suggestions that demonyms like Venedi, Veneti,
>> Wends etc. originally denoted the speakers of a separate, long
>> extinct, IE branch in what is now the Western Slavic countries and
>> Eastern Germany. There are some passages in the works of the early
>> geographers that might be interpreted that way, and the "urheimats"
>> I've seen assigned to Germanic, Slavic, and Baltic seem to leave
>> this area void. Is there any research into toponyms, phonology, or
>> whatever, indicating a common substratum in these areas?
>
> Can you get to the 1994 Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics, ed.
> Asher & Simpson?
Thanks. Perhaps I can, but not immediately.
(There are just a handful of copies in Norway and I'll probably have to
belong to an academic institution to get one. I'll check if my
occasional guest-starring as an external examinator on our local
wannabee-university will earn me a library ticket. Would be quite handy,
actually. This plan could turn traumatic for my kids, though. Eventually
the library would have to send armed police to my house to get its
property back.)
> Eric Hamp's article on Indo-European mentions some
> posited substrates, and gives a reference to an article where he
> discusses them in slightly more detail.
Volume 3, then?
The English Wikipedia article (replace that with a beep, Peter) on Wends
mentions this view, refering to Schenker's _The Dawn of Slavic; An
Introduction to Slavic Philology_ (Yale U.P. 1996). The first parts of
the first chapter are available at
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0300058462/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-6504346-7885569#reader-link>
(does the url work? Probably not) and, in a less readable format, at
<http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=9780300058468&referrer=frgl>.
I claim the fact that it's been made public as an approval to bring some
of the relevant paragraphs:
> 1.4. Were the Veneti Slavic? From various ancient sources we know of
> three different tribes bearing the name of the Veneti or Venedi. A
> large tribe of the Veneti, first mentioned by Herodotus, lived along
> the northern shores of the Adriatic Sea. [...]
> There was also a Celtic tribe of the Veneti living in the Morbihan
> district of Brittany. [...]
> Finally, a tribe of the Veneti was mentioned by Pliny the Elder (A.D.
> 23-79) who located it along the Vistula. [...]
>
> [... I]n most investigations dealing with Slavic prehistory, the
> Baltic Veneti are not considered Germanic, as Tacitus would have it,
> or Illyrian, like their namesakes on the Adriatic, or Celtic, like
> the Morbihan Veneti. Rather, they are generally regarded as Slavic.
> To justify such an identification, which if correct would directly
> confirm the autochthonous theory, three circumstances are mentioned.
> It is noted, in the first place, that the Veneti of the first and
> second centuries A.D. and the historic Slavs of the sixth century
> inhabited the same area. Second, the name of the Veneti has survived
> in German as Wenden or Winden, where it designates the Slavs who live
> in the closest proximity of Germany. And, last, the sixth-century
> Gothic historian Jordanes (1.10) applied the terms Veneti and Slavs
> to the same ethnic community (Niederle 1923:32-33).
>
> These arguments, however, are not decisive. There is no reason to
> doubt that by the sixth century the Slavs were on the Vistula (though
> it is quite unlikely that they had by then reached the Baltic). This
> does not mean, however, that they had to be there in the time of
> Tacitus. During the intervening four hundred years Europe underwent
> its most momentous transformations [...]
>
> Nor can the German practice of designating their Slavic neighbors by
> the names Wenden or Winden help us in solving the question of the
> ethnic character of the Veneti. Transfers of names from one ethnic
> group to another have frequently occurred in history [...]
>
> There is also no compelling evidence to justify the claim that
> Jordanes' identification of the Veneti with the Slavs reflects an
> ancient situation. The Slavicization of the Veneti is possible in the
> sixth century but most improbable in the first. [...]
>
> Quite aside from these considerations, the very fact that the ancient
> sources locate the Veneti on the Baltic provides the most persuasive
> argument against their identification with the Slavs. The point is
> that Slavic vocabulary does not contain any indication that the early
> Slavs were exposed to the sea. {...] Especially striking is the
> absence of a Proto-Slavic word for amber, the most important item of
> export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of
> this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic
> Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of
> his times with the Slavs.
>
> [...]
>
> Another piece of evidence countering the claim that the Veneti of the
> times preceding the Great Migrations were Slavic is furnished by
> Henry of Livonia (Henricus de Lettis), who in his Latin chronicle,
> dating from the very beginning of the thirteenth century, described a
> clearly non-Slavic tribe of the Vindi (German Winden, English Wends)
> which lived in Courland and Livonia (on the territory of today's
> Latvia). The tribe's memory lives on in the name of the river Windau
> (Latvian Venta), with the town of Windau (Latvian Ventspils) at its
> mouth, and in Wenden, the old name of the town of Cesis (East Slavic
> Kesb) in Livonia. The location of this tribe coupled with recently
> discovered archaeological evidence (Ochmanski 1982) suggest that the
> Vindi of Courland and Livonia may well be the descendants of the
> Baltic Veneti.
>
> 1.5. Evidence of place and river names. The autochthonists assume
> that the names of several Central European rivers and of the town of
> Kalisz in Poland (Ptolemy's Kalisa) have demonstrably Slavic
> etymologies. The highly conjectural nature of these etymologies,
> however, seriously undermines their value as underpinnings of any
> attempt to establish the habitat of the early Slavs. While an
> etymology of a common noun can be tested on the semantic level, most
> proper names do not lend themselves to such verification. This is the
> case of the Vistula (Polish Wisla), the only river of the area known
> by the same name or its variants (Vistla, Visculus, Viscla, Visula)
> to both the ancients and the moderns. Neither the Vistula nor Kalisz,
> however, has a transparent Slavic or Indo-European etymology. These
> names could be Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, or even pre-Indo-European
> (Schenker 1987).
Reading this, it appears as if he wants to see the Wends as the
ancestors of (at least some subset of) the Baltic peoples.
Geographically it makes sense, but I can't see it agreeing with the
cluster of Baltic hydronyms in Russia.
--
Trond Engen
- wound up by Wends
Peter T. Daniels
3: 1661-67.
The earlier treatment is "The Pre-Indo-European Language of Northern
(Central) Europe," in Markey & Greppin, eds., When Worlds Collide
(1990), 291-309.
IIRC Hamp refers to a "Cimmerian" substratum in Slavic and elsewhere
in N Europe IE and another in S Europe IE that is what used to be
called "Pelasgian" but he uses a different name because that one has
too many irrelevant associations; both Cimmerian and Pelasgian are
themselves IE.
> The English Wikipedia article (replace that with a beep, Peter) on Wends
> mentions this view, refering to Schenker's _The Dawn of Slavic; An
> Introduction to Slavic Philology_ (Yale U.P. 1996). The first parts of
> the first chapter are available at
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0300058462/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-6504346-...>
Somewhere he has to tell you whether he believes in a Balto-Slavic
unity or in two separate groups that grew together because of intimate
contact. (The language history is independent of the ethnic history,
of course.)
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Schenker wrongly claimed that the Slavic languages "lacked a native
term for beech".
What arguments he could present to prove that Slavic buk/bukva is a
borrowing from Germanic/Gothic bok? On the other hand, is there any
proof that could corroborate that the word bok/book/beech is of an
undisputed Germanic origin?
What are we going to do with Latin sambucus (elder-tree), Russian
базина, Serbian žbun (bush), smokva (fig-tree).
Namely, all the Slavic words mentioned above are related to the
following Slavic words: beleg (mark, landmark, nick, scotch), beležiti
(note, mark, notice), pisati (write; from Bel-Gon beleg => beležiti =>
blisati => pisati), beležnica (notebook). If we know that beech
tablets were used as writing surfaces in the ancient times we must
come to a conclusion that the Slavic word buk/bukva (beech) cannot be
the Germanic loanword; i.e. bukva (beech) is a clear-cut Slavic word.
For instance, Serbian pisar (scribe) is equal to English booker and it
means that both words were independently developed from the same
basis.
A similar relation could be found among words as English block, plunk,
log and Serbian oblog (lining, sheath), oblica (wooden cylinder), panj
(log), pladanj (a sheet of wood, plate, tray).
It seems that German Wald (wood, forest) is clearly related to English
wood, is it not? In addition, there are the words as English wild and
German Gewalt (force, violence). What is the relation between English
wood and German Wut (wroth, rage, ire).
DV
mb
...
> German Gewalt (force, violence). What is the relation between English
> wood and German Wut (wroth, rage, ire).
The latter tells one to use the former to beat on the head idiots who
confuse everything.
Dušan Vukotić
> On Jan 26, 2:29 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>
> > German Gewalt (force, violence). What is the relation between English
> > wood and German Wut (wroth, rage, ire).
>
> The latter tells one to use the former to beat on the head idiots who
> confuse everything.
No more talking...!
Get off you lazy asshole and start making the pizza-dough!
DV
mb
So you belong in the same category as that Faucounau retard. Fine.
One can only hope you are not into libel and physical aggression like
him, too.
Dušan Vukotić
Schenker also claimed that "Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology"
at all! What Schenker tried to achieve by such ludicrous statement?
For instance, it is much difficult to explain the history of the
English word "mast" than the history of the Serbo-Slavic word most
(bridge), motka (pole). In Serbian most is related to the other
Serbian/Slavic words as mesto (place; Czech misto, Russ. место),
premestiti (transfer; Czech přemísťovat; Russ. переместить), prenositi
(transfer; Czech přenášet, přenést; Russ. переносить; Slovene
prenesti) and premostiti (bridge over; Czech přemostit).
In Serbo-Slavic, most (bridge) was "born" from the prefixed word pre-
most-iti. Pre-mostiti literally means "to bring over"; i.e. in this
case "to go over to other side of river" (Serb. preko over, beyond;
Russ. пере-, Czech přes; cf. Lat. perago /to pass through/). Now we
can see that the ur-basis of all the above words is - Br-Gon. Of
course, the first syllable Br- is a reduced (assimilated) form of Bel-
Hor (bel-kret => pokret /movement/ => obrtati/vrteti => rotate).
English bridge is clearly related to the verb bring in the same way as
Serbian pritka/prečka (crossbar; Czech příčka; Russ. по-перечная
балка /crossbeam/) is related to the Serbian verbs 'prineti/
preneti' (bring, bring over; Czech přinášet, přines; Russ. переносить;
Slovene prenašati) and 'preći' (cross over; Czech přejít, přejet,
přejíždět). From this moment on we can understand why the English
words bridge and mast are closely related to Serbian/Slavic words
prečka (crossbar) and most (bridge).
Farther more, it becomes clear that the Slavic noun most (bridge)
sprang from the above mentioned verbs prenositi (bring over, carry
over, transfer) and premostiti (bridge over); pre-nositi => pre-mosit/
i => most (n => m sound change). From the same Br-Gon basis is
derived Serbian/Slavic prečka (crossbar); i.e. from preneti (bring
over, transfer) => preći (cross over) => prečka (crossbar).
Prečka <=> Bridge; Most <=> Mast
Trond Engen
> On Jan 25, 7:50 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> Peter T. Daniels skreiv:
>>
>>> On Jan 25, 7:54 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've come across suggestions that demonyms like Venedi, Veneti,
>>>> Wends etc. originally denoted the speakers of a separate, long
>>>> extinct, IE branch in what is now the Western Slavic countries and
>>>> Eastern Germany. There are some passages in the works of the early
>>>> geographers that might be interpreted that way, and the
>>>> "urheimats" I've seen assigned to Germanic, Slavic, and Baltic
>>>> seem to leave this area void. Is there any research into toponyms,
>>>> phonology, or whatever, indicating a common substratum in these
>>>> areas?
>>>
>>> Can you get to the 1994 Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics,
>>> ed. Asher & Simpson?
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Eric Hamp's article on Indo-European mentions some posited
>>> substrates, and gives a reference to an article where he discusses
>>> them in slightly more detail.
[...]
> The earlier treatment is "The Pre-Indo-European Language of Northern
> (Central) Europe," in Markey & Greppin, eds., When Worlds Collide
> (1990), 291-309.
Thank you. I haven't got that library ticket yet, though.
> IIRC Hamp refers to a "Cimmerian" substratum in Slavic and elsewhere
> in N Europe IE and another in S Europe IE that is what used to be
> called "Pelasgian" but he uses a different name because that one has
> too many irrelevant associations; both Cimmerian and Pelasgian are
> themselves IE.
He obviously chose the name 'Cimmerian' because of the wide distribution
of apparent cognates among ethno-/demo-/toponyms in NW Europe. If the
name is also meant to indicate a geographic correlation between these
onyms and the supposed substratum, I'm not sure if it can be the same as
the one I hypothesised.
OOH, since Venedic is mentioned in northern Central Europe at a time
well after the spread of Celtic, a common substratum in NEur IE, Celtic
included, must be significantly older than a possible Venedic substratum
in West Slavic and Eastern Germanic. OTOH, if the "Cimmerian" substratum
is also present in Western Slavic (and not the other branches of
Slavic), then it probably is identical to what was called "Venedic"
before the arrival of Slavic.
Utter speculation of course, given my laymanship and the scarse
evidence, but shouldn't we -- as a zero hypothesis -- expect an IE
branch in this area to share features with Germanic and Baltic? After
all, both of them were present along the shores of the Baltic Sea early
enough to provide the Western Finnic languages with a fair share of the
lexicon, neither of them are generally believed to have covered the area
around Oder and Vistula in their proto-states, and the whole Baltic
region took part in the export economy of the Nordic Bronze Age.
"Unshifted Germanic" or "Centum Baltic"? How would that sound?
>> [From Schenker's _The Dawn of Slavic; An Introduction to Slavic
>> Philology_ (Yale U.P. 1996):]
>>
>>> Another piece of evidence countering the claim that the Veneti of
>>> the times preceding the Great Migrations were Slavic is furnished
>>> by Henry of Livonia (Henricus de Lettis), who in his Latin
>>> chronicle, dating from the very beginning of the thirteenth
>>> century, described a clearly non-Slavic tribe of the Vindi (German
>>> Winden, English Wends) which lived in Courland and Livonia (on the
>>> territory of today's Latvia). The tribe's memory lives on in the
>>> name of the river Windau (Latvian Venta), with the town of Windau
>>> (Latvian Ventspils) at its mouth, and in Wenden, the old name of
>>> the town of Cesis (East Slavic Kesb) in Livonia. The location of
>>> this tribe coupled with recently discovered archaeological evidence
>>> (Ochmanski 1982) suggest that the Vindi of Courland and Livonia may
>>> well be the descendants of the Baltic Veneti.
>>
>> Reading this, it appears as if he wants to see the Wends as the
>> ancestors of (at least some subset of) the Baltic peoples.
>> Geographically it makes sense, but I can't see it agreeing with the
>> cluster of Baltic hydronyms in Russia.
>
> Somewhere he has to tell you whether he believes in a Balto-Slavic
> unity or in two separate groups that grew together because of
> intimate contact.
Judging from the titles of the chapters, he doesn't believe in B-Sl
unity. Chapter 2 is dedicated to historical linguistics, from PIE to
late PSl, and only the title of 2.6, 'The problem of Balto-Slavic',
contains the word Balt*. Thus, internal Baltic questions are of little
concern -- the above paragraph is just part of an argument that the
cradle of Slavic was rocked further east.
> (The language history is independent of the ethnic history, of
> course.)
Of course. Although language and ethnicity do tend to coincide for
(sufficiently short) periods of time.
--
Trond Engen
- mixing one thing with the Oder
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:j_2dnUsX5sI...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
[...]
> Trond Engen
> - mixing one thing with the Oder
And what could be Neisse than that?
Brian
Paul J Kriha
news:10fyrvxwuoo51$.19l0zkspiyhcl$.dlg@40tude.net...
pjk
Trond Engen
You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
--
Trond Engen
- the Chech pronunciation of 'Elbe' is labial.
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:47a1daf6$0$14987$8404...@news.wineasy.se> in
sci.lang:
> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>> news:10fyrvxwuoo51$.19l0zkspiyhcl$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:40:33 +0100, Trond Engen
>>> <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
>>> <news:j_2dnUsX5sI...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>>> [...]
>>>> Trond Engen
>>>> - mixing one thing with the Oder
>>> And what could be Neisse than that?
>> Said Brian sticking his Elbe in.
> You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
Ah, but what'll he Donau?
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:25:38 +0100, Trond Engen
> >>news:10fyrvxwuoo51$.19l0zkspiyhcl$.dlg@40tude.net...
> >>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:40:33 +0100, Trond Engen
> >>> <news:j_2dnUsX5sI...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
> >>> [...]
> >>>> Trond Engen
> >>>> - mixing one thing with the Oder
> >>> And what could be Neisse than that?
> >> Said Brian sticking his Elbe in.
> > You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
>
> Ah, but what'll he Donau?
You two are driving your readers in Seine.
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:55543148-c569-413c...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
>>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>>>>> [...]
Oh, how Havel!
Brian
Trond Engen
Brian M. Scott skreiv:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:31:57 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
> <news:55543148-c569-413c...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
>> On Jan 31, 12:38 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:25:38 +0100, Trond Engen
>>> <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
>>> <news:47a1daf6$0$14987$8404...@news.wineasy.se> in
>>> sci.lang:
>>>
>>>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>>>>
>>>>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
>>>>> news:10fyrvxwuoo51$.19l0zkspiyhcl$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:40:33 +0100, Trond Engen
>>>>>> <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
>>>>>> <news:j_2dnUsX5sI...@telenor.com> in sci.lang:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trond Engen
>>>>>>> - mixing one thing with the Oder
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what could be Neisse than that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Said Brian sticking his Elbe in.
>>>>
>>>> You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
>>>
>>> Ah, but what'll he Donau?
>>
>> You two are driving your readers in Seine.
>
> Oh, how Havel!
But we won't give Inn!
--
Trond Engen
- kjenner det river
Paul J Kriha
That doesn't Rhine. Is that an Inn joke?
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:47a2d76b$0$15000$8404...@news.wineasy.se...
Isar right or Rhône? Donau, but Yu Ara right, you Meuse me.
pjk
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen:
>> Brian M. Scott:
>>> Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> Brian M. Scott:
>>>>> Trond Engen:
>>>>>> Paul J Kriha:
>>>>>>> Brian M. Scott:
>>>>>>>> Trond Engen:
>>>>>>>>> - mixing one thing with the Oder
>>>>>>>> And what could be Neisse than that?
>>>>>>> Said Brian sticking his Elbe in.
>>>>>> You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
>>>>> Ah, but what'll he Donau?
>>>> You two are driving your readers in Seine.
>>> Oh, how Havel!
>> But we won't give Inn!
> Isar right or Rhône?
Tisza fact!
> Donau, but Yu Ara right, you Meuse me.
Oh, Loire! I Oise doing Waal till I saw this Maas. Now I'll Neva find
the Severn I need to beat you.
--
Trond Engen
- sending you back to your Hutt!
Paul J Kriha
I cheated, Donau was used before.
Ohm...Aire... Ebro, Einasleigh! Erguig, Ay EauClair Yu a winner.
> Trond Engen
> - sending you back to your Hutt!
That's a near hit, less than 200m from my house.
(meters, not miles! :-)
pjk
Michael Kuettner
"Paul J Kriha" schrieb :
> "Brian M. Scott" wrote :
>> Peter T. Daniels" wrote :
>> > Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>> >> Trond Engen wrote :
>> >>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>> >>>> "Brian M. Scott" wrote :
>> >>>>> Trond Engen wrote :
>> >>>>>> Trond Engen
>> >>>>>> - mixing one thing with the Oder
>> >>>>> And what could be Neisse than that?
>> >>>> Said Brian sticking his Elbe in.
>> >>> You're really on a Spree now, aren't you?
>> >> Ah, but what'll he Donau?
>> > You two are driving your readers in Seine.
>> Oh, how Havel!
>
> That doesn't Rhine. Is that an Inn joke?
Maas be one; but none of Main.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
~~~ Rheinhold (Rey) Aman ~~~
Paul J Kriha
Wye? Ayr Yu Noun Asa Wu Ong?
pjk
Trond Engen
Nea, Pecos Uruguay, En Aude Hwang Ho Let Saskatchewan Debed Tweed Elsa
Orinoco Sekampong Wied Delaware Lyena Kentucky.
--
Trond Engen
- Léfini
Trond Engen
Ohio, Yukon Tel Issa Bourne Tees.
--
Trond Engen
- running dry
Paul J Kriha
> - running dry
I'm too running dry like tributaries to Eyre.
Bad luck, there are no Martian or Venutian rivers of any
consequence either.
pjk
John Atkinson
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote...
> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote...
>> Paul J Kriha skreiv:
>> > "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote ...
Not any more mate!
http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/wrap_fwo.pl?IDQ20885.html
> Bad luck, there are no Martian or Venutian rivers of any
> consequence either.
Yeah?
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/20marsfloods/
http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars_Express/SEMIKO0DU8E_0.html
J.
Paul J Kriha
news:bXzpj.10966$421...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Hmm, it has recently also made the news on this side of Tasman.
Floods in Sydney and elsewhere in Oz usually being contrasted
with exceptionally dry weather over here.
I remembered about flooded Eyre only after I hit the Send and
then hoped nobody'd notice.
Does it mean, in order not to have lied, do I have to come up
with some more fiumary prattle(tm)?
> > Bad luck, there are no Martian or Venutian rivers of any
> > consequence either.
>
> Yeah?
> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/20marsfloods/
> http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars_Express/SEMIKO0DU8E_0.html
Yes, but it's next to impossible to come by the actual useful
names of _rivers_.
pjk
P.S. In any case, nice Martian pics, thanks.