Feathery bumpit (a number system for counting sheep)
Dara Connolly
Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers in Wales
or the West Country? I came across it only once, in a children's book years
ago. Since then I have been unable to find reference to it. All I remember
is that the words for nine and ten (or possibly nineteen and twenty) were
'feathery' and 'bumpit'. These I remember because these words were used as
the heading for the page in the book in question, and because the words, taken
as a phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
Yours,
dara connolly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dara Connolly Tel. +353 1 706 1753
Energy Conversion Centre Fax. +353 1 283 0534
University College Dublin e-mail dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie
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Colin Fine
In article <5408bh$e...@hermes.ucd.ie>, Dara Connolly
<dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie> writes
>Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers in Wales
>or the West Country? I came across it only once, in a children's book years
>ago. Since then I have been unable to find reference to it. All I remember
>is that the words for nine and ten (or possibly nineteen and twenty) were
>'feathery' and 'bumpit'. These I remember because these words were used as
>the heading for the page in the book in question, and because the words, taken
>as a phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
>
I've heard various versions of it, but don't have a reference,
definitive or otherwise.
Most versions I've heard start something like
yarn
tarn
tether (or tethera)
mether (or methera)
pip
(cf Welsh un, dau, tri/tair, pedwar/pedair, pump)
I suggest you 'feathery' and 'bumpit' are probably fourteen and fifteen
(Welsh pedwar-ar-ddeg and pymtheg)
I've most often seen these numbers described as from Northern England, a
remnant of Cumbrian (a dialect of British which has not otherwise
survived, but close to Welsh).
But if you watch the film of _The Music Man_, which is set in River
City, Iowa, there is a school pageant at which "We will now count to
twenty in the Indian tongue", and these numbers are what they proceed to
recite!
--
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Brian M. Scott
In article <5408bh$e...@hermes.ucd.ie>, dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie says...
>Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers in
>Wales
>or the West Country? I came across it only once, in a children's book years
>ago. Since then I have been unable to find reference to it. All I remember
>is that the words for nine and ten (or possibly nineteen and twenty) were
>'feathery' and 'bumpit'. These I remember because these words were used as
>the heading for the page in the book in question, and because the words,
>taken
>as a phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
This appears to be a variant of the counting scheme described by
Karl Menninger in _Number Words and Number Symbols_ as being used
in Lincolnshire to count sheep in the field and stitches in knitting:
1 - 5: yan, tan, tethera, pethera, pimp
6 - 10: sethera, lethera, hovera, covera, dik
11 - 15: yan a dik, tan a dik, , , bumpit
16 - 20: yan a bumpit, , , , figitt
(The gaps are present in Menninger; they can probably safely be filled
by analogy.) The first two multiples of 5 are evidently related to
Welsh pump, dec, and 'pethera' is related to Welsh 'petwar'. 11 - 14
and 16 are constructed as in Welsh lines. 'Bumpit' is mangled, and
6 - 9 are completely unrecognizable. 'Tethera' preserves the initial
[t] of 'tri' or the like but seems to have been influenced by 'pethera'.
With 'yan' compare Irish 'oin', Welsh 'un'; 'tan' seems again to show the
influence of its neighbor. And 'figitt' isn't all that close to Welsh
'ugeint', but note Irish 'fiche'. There seems to be an underlying Celtic
sequence, greatly modified over a long period of time; conceivably it goes
back to Cumbric rather that to Welsh proper.
Brian M. Scott
Simon Buck
Ysgrifennodd Dara Connolly (dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie):
Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers
in Wales or the West Country? I came across it only once, in a
children's book years ago. Since then I have been unable to find
reference to it. All I remember is that the words for nine and ten
(or possibly nineteen and twenty) were 'feathery' and 'bumpit'.
These I remember because these words were used as the heading for the
page in the book in question, and because the words, taken as a
phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
I believe they are generally taken as (elaborations on) relics of old
Celtic numerals. It strikes me that your <feathery / bumpit> are more
likely to be <four / five> (Welsh <pedwar / pump>) though i suppose
<fourteen / fifteen> (<pedwar ar ddeg / pymtheg>) is possible. I think
similar numerals were used quite recently, if not these days, in even
now-non-Celtic areas like the Peak District.
No, i have no references either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon.Buck @ Computing-Service.Cambridge.AC.UK
Gwasanaeth Cyfrifiadurol Prifysgol Caergrawnt, CB2 3QG, Y Deyrnas Unedig
John Cowan
Dara Connolly wrote:
> Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers in Wales
> or the West Country? I came across it only once, in a children's book years
> ago. Since then I have been unable to find reference to it. All I remember
> is that the words for nine and ten (or possibly nineteen and twenty) were
> 'feathery' and 'bumpit'. These I remember because these words were used as
> the heading for the page in the book in question, and because the words, taken
> as a phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
The scheme I saw was "Yan, tyan, tethera, methera, pimp, sethera,
lethera,
hovera, dovera, dick", which is plainly just counting in Welsh, with
some
corruptions. You use it to count sheep passing into or out of a
paddock.
--
John Cowan co...@ccil.org
e'osai ko sarji la lojban
Paul J Kriha
In article <5408bh$e...@hermes.ucd.ie>, dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie (Dara Connolly) wrote:
>Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers in Wales
>or the West Country?
>dara connolly.
There is a very strange counting system (both linguistically
and numerically) used by South Bohemian fisherman during
ceremonial emptying of the fish ponds. Unfortunately,
I don't remember any of the words. It was not recognizably
any local language and it was reputedly pre-Slavic perhaps
Celtic.
Paul JK.
Simon Buck
Ysgrifennodd Brian M. Scott (sc...@math.csuohio.edu):
This appears to be a variant of the counting scheme described by Karl
Menninger in _Number Words and Number Symbols_ as being used in
Lincolnshire to count sheep in the field and stitches in knitting:
1 - 5: yan, tan, tethera, pethera, pimp
6 - 10: sethera, lethera, hovera, covera, dik
11 - 15: yan a dik, tan a dik, , , bumpit
16 - 20: yan a bumpit, , , , figitt
(The gaps are present in Menninger; they can probably safely be
filled by analogy.) The first two multiples of 5 are evidently
related to Welsh pump, dec, and 'pethera' is related to Welsh
'petwar'. 11 - 14 and 16 are constructed as in Welsh lines. 'Bumpit'
is mangled, and 6 - 9 are completely unrecognizable. 'Tethera'
preserves the initial [t] of 'tri' or the like but seems to have been
influenced by 'pethera'. With 'yan' compare Irish 'oin', Welsh 'un';
'tan' seems again to show the influence of its neighbor. And
'figitt' isn't all that close to Welsh 'ugeint', but note Irish
'fiche'. There seems to be an underlying Celtic sequence, greatly
modified over a long period of time; conceivably it goes back to
Cumbric rather that to Welsh proper.
I know the discussion is about old words, but i must observe that these
`Welsh' numbers are Middle Welsh. The differing modern forms are <deg>,
<pedwar>, and <ugain>. Wild analogists should be warned that the Welsh
for <eighteen> is not *<tri ar bymtheg> but <deunaw> (`twice nine').
Pierre Jelenc
Simon Buck <Simon...@Computing-Service.Cambridge.AC.UK> writes:
> Ysgrifennodd Dara Connolly (dc...@ollamh.ucd.ie):
>
> Does anyone know of an unusual counting system used by sheep farmers
> children's book years ago. Since then I have been unable to find
> reference to it. All I remember is that the words for nine and ten
> (or possibly nineteen and twenty) were 'feathery' and 'bumpit'.
> These I remember because these words were used as the heading for the
> page in the book in question, and because the words, taken as a
> phrase, are very pleasing and memorable to the childish ear.
>
> Celtic numerals. It strikes me that your <feathery / bumpit> are more
> likely to be <four / five> (Welsh <pedwar / pump>) though i suppose
> <fourteen / fifteen> (<pedwar ar ddeg / pymtheg>) is possible. I think
> similar numerals were used quite recently, if not these days, in even
> now-non-Celtic areas like the Peak District.
The reference I have (unfortunately a magazine clipping without source) is
for the similar set of numbers used by women to count their stitches while
knitting. It goes:
1 yan 11 yan dik
2 tan 12 tan dik
3 tethera 13 tethera dik
4 methera 14 methera dik
5 pimp 15 bumfit
6 sethera 16 yan-a-bumfit
7 lethera 17 tan-a-bumfit
8 hovera 18 tethera bumfit
9 dovera 19 methera bumfit
10 dik 20 jiggit
This was attested in northern England, Lancashire if I remember right.
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc Know what's weird? Day by day nothing seems to
rc...@panix.com change, but pretty soon everything is different.
pie...@nycbeer.org Calvin & Hobbes
http://www.columbia.edu/~pcj1/
Donald Fisk
rc...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
>The reference I have (unfortunately a magazine clipping without source) is
>for the similar set of numbers used by women to count their stitches while
>knitting. It goes:
>1 yan 11 yan dik
>2 tan 12 tan dik
>3 tethera 13 tethera dik
>4 methera 14 methera dik
>5 pimp 15 bumfit
>6 sethera 16 yan-a-bumfit
>7 lethera 17 tan-a-bumfit
>8 hovera 18 tethera bumfit
>9 dovera 19 methera bumfit
>10 dik 20 jiggit
>This was attested in northern England, Lancashire if I remember right.
It's thought by one author (Glanvill Price, IIRC) that these numbers
are all that's left of Cumbrian, a P Celtic language spoken up until
the dark ages in northern England.
>Pierre
Le Hibou hi...@enterprise.net http://homepages.enterprise.net/hibou/
There are a number of mechanical devices which increase sexual
arousal, particularly in women. Chief among them is the
Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible. -- PJ O'Rourke.
Leland Bryant Ross
In a previous article, hi...@enterprise.net (Donald Fisk) says:
>rc...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
>>The reference I have (unfortunately a magazine clipping without source) is
>>for the similar set of numbers used by women to count their stitches while
>>knitting. It goes:
>
>>1 yan 11 yan dik
>>2 tan 12 tan dik
>>3 tethera 13 tethera dik
etc. etc.
>>10 dik 20 jiggit
>
>>This was attested in northern England, Lancashire if I remember right.
>
>It's thought by one author (Glanvill Price, IIRC) that these numbers
>are all that's left of Cumbrian, a P Celtic language spoken up until
>the dark ages in northern England.
On what (if any) grounds is Cumbrian (Cymru-an, n'est-ce pas?) held to be
"a P Celtic language spoken ... in northern England" rather than merely
^^^^^^^^
"Welsh as once spoken in a part of the island where English has now
supplanted it"? This strikes me as a sort of retrojection of the
"Bosnian language" phenomenon *sans* even the *political* rationale.
Unless, of course, Cumbrian is better attested than I imagine, and shows
marked dissimilarity to contemporaneous Welsh...
--
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P O Box 30091 quiise se pajyo, ax quinchihuilis tleno."
Seattle, WA 98103 Usono
Tel. (206) 633-2434 (Aj aj aj! Liland krokodiledas!)
Brian M. Scott
In article <Dzt5u...@scn.org>, lila...@scn.org says...
>In a previous article, hi...@enterprise.net (Donald Fisk) says:
[snip]
>>It's thought by one author (Glanvill Price, IIRC) that these numbers
>>are all that's left of Cumbrian, a P Celtic language spoken up until
>>the dark ages in northern England.
>On what (if any) grounds is Cumbrian (Cymru-an, n'est-ce pas?) held to be
>"a P Celtic language spoken ... in northern England" rather than merely
> ^^^^^^^^
>"Welsh as once spoken in a part of the island where English has now
>supplanted it"? This strikes me as a sort of retrojection of the
>"Bosnian language" phenomenon *sans* even the *political* rationale.
>Unless, of course, Cumbrian is better attested than I imagine, and shows
>marked dissimilarity to contemporaneous Welsh...
I no longer remember any of the details, but since the name 'Cumbric'
was suggested by Kenneth Jackson, his massive _Language History in
Early Britain_ (title given from memory, possibly slightly off) would
be a good place to start. I do know that place-name evidence suggests
that some cognate words had somewhat different meanings in Cumbric and
in early Welsh. In any case, 'Cumbric' seems a useful term for the
p-Celtic language whose time and place are roughly those of the kingdom
of Strathclyde.
Brian M. Scott
Colin Fine
In article <Dzt5u...@scn.org>, Leland Bryant Ross <lila...@scn.org>
writes
>On what (if any) grounds is Cumbrian (Cymru-an, n'est-ce pas?) held to be
>"a P Celtic language spoken ... in northern England" rather than merely
> ^^^^^^^^
>"Welsh as once spoken in a part of the island where English has now
>supplanted it"? This strikes me as a sort of retrojection of the
>"Bosnian language" phenomenon *sans* even the *political* rationale.
>Unless, of course, Cumbrian is better attested than I imagine, and shows
>marked dissimilarity to contemporaneous Welsh...
>
of early Welsh (the Gododdin) is set even further North in Strathclyde.
I think you are right; but the name Cumbrian has been around in the
literature for quite a while.
Donald Fisk
lila...@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross) wrote:
>On what (if any) grounds is Cumbrian (Cymru-an, n'est-ce pas?) held to be
>"a P Celtic language spoken ... in northern England" rather than merely
> ^^^^^^^^
>"Welsh as once spoken in a part of the island where English has now
>supplanted it"? This strikes me as a sort of retrojection of the
>"Bosnian language" phenomenon *sans* even the *political* rationale.
>Unless, of course, Cumbrian is better attested than I imagine, and shows
>marked dissimilarity to contemporaneous Welsh...
The only remnants of Cumbrian (yes, cognate with Cymru) are the
numbers for counting sheep, and place names. You might as well call
it Old Welsh, or a dialect of Old Welsh.
>Liland Brajant ROS' "Intla yajuanti quinitzquise cohuame o intla
Le Hibou hi...@enterprise.net http://homepages.enterprise.net/hibou/