Etymology of these Serbian words
stefan...@hotmail.com
jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
komca.
stefan...@hotmail.com
also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
Yusuf B Gursey
some of them seem to be turkish, but to be sure I would have to know
their meanings.
Dušan Vukotić
These words are mostly Serbo-Slavic, although some of them (yogurt,
barjak for instance) could possible be of Turkic origin:
Turkish yelek (vest, waist, waistcoat); originally that word came from
Serbo-Slavic obleka (cloth; Gon-bel-Gon basis; i.e. heblek => jeblek =
jelek); cf. jagluk from (h)oglavak, a maiden scarf.
Serbian barjak is a borrowing from Tur. bayrak (flag); Turkmen baydak
(here is interesting to mention that this word resembles to Turkic bay
´r, bajrak /hill/ that might be a borrowing from Slavic breg /hill;
Ger. Berg/. Of course, I cannot find any logical connection between
Turkic bayrak (flag) and bajrak (hill).
Kavez (Tur. kafese) comes from the Gon-Bel basis; Serbo-Slavic okov
(fetter), hvatanje (catch), gvožđe/gvozd (iron), uvezati (fasten);
Serbian syntagma "baciti u gvožđa" (to shackle); cf. Serbian gvozd
and Hephaistos Ἡφαιστος; Serb. gvožđe (iron) => zvezda (star),
gvožđara (iron shop) => zvezdara (the place full of stars) and Gr.
εσεσιδηρωτο (overlaid with iron), also Gr. σεσιδηρω-μενοι; Lat.
sidereus starry).
Turkish kaşık (spoon) is not Turkish inherited word although even
Vasmer understood the Slavic word 'kašik/а' (Russ. кашик) as a Turkic
loanword. Serbo-Slavic kašika (spoon) is clearly related to the verb
'kvašenje' (wetting, soaking) and to the Serbo-Slavic word
'kaša' (soup; from kvašenica; see http://my.opera.com/vukotic/blog/2008/01/12/wet-wheat-oat
). It is the reason why we have the forms kašika and kovšika (Russ.
ковшик) as Slavic spoon).
Turkish yastık (Turkmen ÿassyk) could be compared to OE hassuc (coarse
grass); maybe it is related to English husk (Serb. ljuska).
Nevertheless, there is a more reliable possibility that Serbian jastuk
(pillow) is derived from the verb uzdignuti (lift up) or
'istaknuti' (jut, prominent, protrude) and we all know that jastuk
(pillow) is a part of bed that is bulged out from the bed surface.
The Russian word подушка/poduška (pillow) explains the Serbo-Slavic
word dušek (mattress), because poduška is derived from Serbo-Salvic
podloga (substratum, pillow, background, backing, bedding, basis,
floor, bottom), Serb. podloška (pillow, groundwork, pad, bed); it
means that 'dušek' (mattress) is an apheresis of the Serb-Slavic word
'po-dloška' (bed). Turkish döşek (bed, mattress) is a clear-cut
borrowing from Serbo-Slavic.
Butina (thigh) is also related to above-mentioned Serbo-Salvic podloga
(base); the same compund word from which English foot and leg were
derived; cf. Ice. fótleggur.
Kobasica appeared be related to Sanskrit gopas (shepherd), but it came
from the above-mentioned Serbian okov (fetter) and verbs okivati
(shackle, band) and očuvati (keep, preserve, beware). Logically,
nothing can be preserved if it is not "fettered" or "fastned" or put
into a shackles (cage); therefrom, kobasica is a food that can be
preserved from decaying for a long period (shepherd's food); cf.
Serbian čoban (shepherd), čuvanje (keeping), okivanje (shackling).
Turkish oda (room; Turkmen otag) is probably related to Serbian odaja
(room); but Serbian odaja is just one of the forms of the words as
odeljenje (section, department; cf. Ger. Teil, Eng. deal) or odeljak
(Ger. Abteil); from the Serbo-Slavic deliti (devide, separate).
Vampir (vampire) is the only word that allegedly was borrowed from
Serbian although that word seems to be more related to Latin vapor
(steam); yes, it could also come from Serbo-Slavic upariti (to steam;
para steam); cf. Old Russian упирь (vampire); here it would be
interesting to mention that English spirit (from Lat. spiritus soul)
sounds almost the same as Serbian ispariti (steam out) and ispiriti
(to exhale, expire!!).
At this moment I have no time to explain all the words you have posted
here, but I will do it in few days.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 5:44 am, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > komca.
>
> > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
> > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
> > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
> > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
> > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
>
> These words are mostly Serbo-Slavic, although some of them (yogurt,
> barjak for instance) could possible be of Turkic origin:
> Turkish yelek (vest, waist, waistcoat); originally that word came from
AFAIK it comes from yel "wind". a vest is a wind breaker.
> Serbo-Slavic obleka (cloth; Gon-bel-Gon basis; i.e. heblek => jeblek =
> jelek); cf. jagluk from (h)oglavak, a maiden scarf.
>
> Serbian barjak is a borrowing from Tur. bayrak (flag); Turkmen baydak
> (here is interesting to mention that this word resembles to Turkic bay
> ´r, bajrak /hill/ that might be a borrowing from Slavic breg /hill;
> Ger. Berg/. Of course, I cannot find any logical connection between
> Turkic bayrak (flag) and bajrak (hill).
>
> Kavez (Tur. kafese) comes from the Gon-Bel basis; Serbo-Slavic okov
> (fetter), hvatanje (catch), gvožđe/gvozd (iron), uvezati (fasten);
> Serbian syntagma "baciti u gvožđa" (to shackle); cf. Serbian gvozd
> and Hephaistos Ἡφαιστος; Serb. gvožđe (iron) => zvezda (star),
> gvožđara (iron shop) => zvezdara (the place full of stars) and Gr.
> εσεσιδηρωτο (overlaid with iron), also Gr. σεσιδηρω-μενοι; Lat.
> sidereus starry).
>
> Turkish kaşık (spoon) is not Turkish inherited word although even
> Vasmer understood the Slavic word 'kašik/а' (Russ. кашик) as a Turkic
> loanword. Serbo-Slavic kašika (spoon) is clearly related to the verb
> 'kvašenje' (wetting, soaking) and to the Serbo-Slavic word
> 'kaša' (soup; from kvašenica; seehttp://my.opera.com/vukotic/blog/2008/01/12/wet-wheat-oat
Yusuf B Gursey
since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
me if I'm wrong.
> On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > komca.
jastuk (pillow?), jogurt (yoghurt?) are also from turkish.
>
> > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
kasa (safe?) is from italian posssibly via turkish
katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
kazan (cauldron?) is turkish
> > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
alat (if "tool") is turkish < arabic
pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
boja (paint?) is turkish
budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
> > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
les (corpse?) is turkish
sanduk (chest?) is turkish < arabic
sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
> > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
celik (steel?) is turkish
cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
cizma (boot?) is turkish < ?
cicak (flower?) is turkish
coban (shepherd?) is turkish < iranian
para (money?) is turkish < persian
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 12:06 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
> jastuk (pillow?), jogurt (yoghurt?) are also from turkish.
>
>
>
>
> kasa (safe?) is from italian posssibly via turkish
> katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
> kazan (cauldron?) is turkish
>
>
> alat (if "tool") is turkish < arabic
> pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
> barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
> boja (paint?) is turkish
> budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
>
>
> dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
> les (corpse?) is turkish
> sanduk (chest?) is turkish < arabic
> sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
>
>
zejtin (olive?) is turkish < arabic
> tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
> celik (steel?) is turkish
> cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
> cizma (boot?) is turkish < ?
> cicak (flower?) is turkish
> coban (shepherd?) is turkish < iranian
> para (money?) is turkish < persian
>
>
>
> > > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
>
> > some of them seem to be turkish, but to be sure I would have to know
> > their meanings.-
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 12:06 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
> jastuk (pillow?), jogurt (yoghurt?) are also from turkish.
>
>
>
>
> kasa (safe?) is from italian posssibly via turkish
> katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
> kazan (cauldron?) is turkish
>
>
> alat (if "tool") is turkish < arabic
> pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
> barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
> boja (paint?) is turkish
> budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
>
>
> dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
> les (corpse?) is turkish
> sanduk (chest?) is turkish < arabic
> sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
>
majmun (monkey?) turkish < arabic
> > > sat, tavan, zejtin, èelik, èirak, èizma, èièak, èoban, para...i know
>
> tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
> celik (steel?) is turkish
> cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
> cizma (boot?) is turkish < ?
> cicak (flower?) is turkish
> coban (shepherd?) is turkish < iranian
> para (money?) is turkish < persian
>
>
>
> > > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
>
> > some of them seem to be turkish, but to be sure I would have to know
> > their meanings.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> arabic or persian. This doesn't prove anything. Dushan has a far
> better proof than this. What you have given me I could've found out by
> myself.
than why ask? the proof is that classsical arabic or persian or old
turkic didn't borrow from slavic, and some have internal etymologies
in these languages.
Yusuf B Gursey
I do straightforward linguistics. I don't specualte about protoworld
or fundamental syllables.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
I didn't claim it was original work. the only objection you might make
is that I guessed the meanings wrong - in which case I would be happy
to correct myself.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> turkish arabic and serbian have the same word it must come from
> turkish or arabic it's "impossible" to be serbian, great theory. You
> have to speculate what the root of the word is to have the right
> etymology. It's absurd what you are saying. You can't just look at the
> word and allocate it to whatever language you see fit.
no, there is the possibility of a few loans from serbian into turkish,
but these are not so. in which case it woudl have no persian or arabic
etymology, no old turkic or internal turkic etymology.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> semitic languages since pre Christian times.- Hide quoted text -
untrue.
lora...@cs.com
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> semitic languages since pre Christian times.
I agree with Yusuf B Gursey in also saying 'untrue'.
Further..There is no evidence Slavs even existed before Cyrill and
Methodius invented Slavic.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please, go and find any "inherited" Baltic word and I will explain its
exact history with the help of Serbo-Slavic. On the other side, I bet
you wouldn't be able to explain development of that word in your own
language.
Choose the word if you dare. :-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
> > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
> > > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
> > > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
> > > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
> > > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
Serbian and Turkish pamuk is a loanword from Greek βαμβακιον (cotton;
βαμβάκι); akin to Persian pambe (cotton);
Serbian kutija (box) is related to Serbian words kut (ugao), ćošak
(ugao), kocka (cube; cf. Serb. ćoškast = kockast /cubelike/), kuća
(house);
Leš (corpse) is probably related to Serbian verb 'ležati' (lie down);
cf. Serb. syntagma "leži mrtav" (he lies dead);
Kovrdža (curl) comes from kvrga (bump, nub), kvržica (a small nub),
kurgan; cf. Serb. kvrgast knotty (from krug /circle/); opposite to
kvrga is jaruga/jarak (ditch, furrow, harrow, Lat. corrugo -are);
Čelik (steel; kako se kalio čelik; Ostrovsky's novel "How the Steel
Was Tempered"); from Serbo-Slavic kaliti (to steel; Russ. за-каляю);
Czech ocel (steel); Serb. očeličiti (to steel, harden); okaliti/
prekaliti (harden, steel);
Budala (fool); metathesis from Serbian poludeti (mad, madden, craze),
bludeti (wanton); bludeo - poludeo - budala; hence the Serbian adverb
podlo (meanly); podlost (baseness);
Kapija (gate) is from Serbian poklopac (cover, lid), oklapati, za-
klapati (to cover, close); Serb. "za-klopi kapiju" (close the gate!;
oklop /shell/ => klapija => kapija);
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > komca.
>
> also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
komsija meaning?
> kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
kutija box? greek
> džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
kapija meaning?
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 1:55 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > komca.
>
> > > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
> > > > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
> > > > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
> > > > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
> > > > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
>
> Serbian and Turkish pamuk is a loanword from Greek βαμβακιον (cotton;
> βαμβάκι); akin to Persian pambe (cotton);
turkish borrowed it from middle iranian, as it is found in central
asian turkic and attested in turkish in the 11th cent.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > komca.
>
> > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
>
> komsija meaning?
>
> > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
>
> kutija box? greek
>
> > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
>
> kapija meaning?
thanks "gate" . from turkish.
>
>
>
> > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
> > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks-
Dušan Vukotić
Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to
foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to soap);
Barut (gunpowder); from Serbo-Slavic prah/porah (dust; Russ. порох);
from Serb. prsnuti (burst, break, explode, spray; Lat. aspergo spray);
cf. Serb. brašno (flour; Ukr. борошно), Russ. порошок; Arabic barud;
Greek πυρίτιδα, μπαρούτι; Aramaic b@rwt, ˁaprā dust; Akkadian eperu
(dust; cf. Serbian pra' dust, gunpowder). According to Xurbelanum HSF
formula the basis of all the above words is Bel-Hor-Gon (Latin
pulvereus!)...
Džep (pocket; Arabic jaib); also gajba (cage); cf. Serb. kavez; Ita.
gabbia (cage); from the Gon-Bel basis, kibla, kabal, kabao, kofa; from
Serbian kupilo (bucket, cupel), okupljati (to gather together);
English gap (?)
Sat (Turkish saat; Turkmen sagat; Hebrew sha`ah /hour/)... Aramaic
šāˁtā (moment of time) could be compared to the Serbian adverb
'sada' (now); Serb. vreme sadašnje (present tense); Russ. сегодня/
sevodnya (today); South-Serbian секогаш/sekogaš (ever, forever); svaki
all, ever; zauvek forever; Latin secunda... I hope, now you are able
to understand that the word sat (hour) is a clear.cut IE word that
cannot be explain neither in Turkish nor Semitic languages.
Dželat (executioner; Turkish cellat); cf. gallows; OE galga is related
to Serbian kolac (pole; cf. Turkish golcü executioner); In this case,
dželat (executioner) is the Turkish loanword in Serbian but this word
originally started from Serbian 'kolac' (pole, pale). We all know that
impaling was the most favorite punishment in Dark Ages. Serb. kolac
(pole) => Tur. golcü (executioner) => cellat/dželat (executioner).
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 8, 5:41 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
> > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
>
> > komsija meaning?
>
> > > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
>
> > kutija box? greek
>
> > > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> > kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
>
> > kapija meaning?
>
> thanks "gate" . from turkish.
Kapi is door/gate in Turkish, but there is no way that you can explain
the development of that word in Turkish.
Please, read again what I wrote before and you maybe will be able to
understand that kapi is Serbian loanword in Turkish (cf. Ger. Klappe /
flap, trapdoor, clapboard/)
http://my.opera.com/vukotic/blog/2008/02/07/stars-made-of-iron
DV
noesy_parker
news:fb3f27fe-4b89-4609...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to
> foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to soap);
Can't help but notice that Malay word for soap is sabun which is assumed to
be from Arabic. Are you claiming a Serbian origin?
Dušan Vukotić
> "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote innews:fb3f27fe-4b89-4609...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to
> > foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to soap);
>
> Can't help but notice that Malay word for soap is sabun which is assumed to
> be from Arabic. Are you claiming a Serbian origin?
What do you think? Arabic sabun (Pers. sâbun) is the same word as
English soap (Ger. Seife, Ita. sapone, Fr. savone, Spa. jabon, Por.
sabăo, Serb. sapun).
Does it mean that the English word soap is of Arabic origin too?
Be reasonable, please!
OE sipian is clerly related to Serbian sipanje (dripping).
Sapun (soap) is a clear-cut IE word which has been borrowed by Arabs,
Turks etc.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
arabic borrowedit from an IE language, persian or greek. the direction
of borrrowing is related to its invention.
>
> DV
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 9, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 5:41 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > komca.
>
>
>
> > > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> > > kutija box? greek
>
> > > > d¾ep, kajsija, kapija, le¹, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> > > kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
>
> > > kapija meaning?
>
> > thanks "gate" . from turkish.
>
> Kapi is door/gate in Turkish, but there is no way that you can explain
> the development of that word in Turkish.
its related to the verb "to close"
> Please, read again what I wrote before and you maybe will be able to
> understand that kapi is Serbian loanword in Turkish (cf. Ger. Klappe /
that's certainly not found in standard literature!
> flap, trapdoor, clapboard/)http://my.opera.com/vukotic/blog/2008/02/07/stars-made-of-iron
>
> DV- Hide quoted text -
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 9, 7:28 am, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 9, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 8, 5:41 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > > komca.
>
> > > > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
>
> > > > komsija meaning?
>
> > > > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> > > > kutija box? greek
>
> > > > > d¾ep, kajsija, kapija, le¹, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> > > > kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
>
> > > > kapija meaning?
>
> > > thanks "gate" . from turkish.
>
> > Kapi is door/gate in Turkish, but there is no way that you can explain
> > the development of that word in Turkish.
>
> its related to the verb "to close"
Of course, kapali (closed). But there is a great number of Serbian
words that have been derived from Gon-Bel-Bel basis, beginning with
oklop (armor, shell, shield, mail) and the verb oklopiti (enclose,
enfold, enwrap). From the same basis is the Serbian verb obljubiti (to
stick, intercourse, adhere, enclose, surround completely).
I know there is a small number of people who would be able to
understand how these two seemingly completely different words as
'oklopiti' and 'obljubiti' could be the closest cognates.
Nevertheless, as I told before, I would not exclude the possibility
that Turkic languages were developed from the same Xur-Bel-Gon
primordial basis as IE. There are Turkish 'zirh kaplamak' (armor) and
kalpak/kapak (cap; Serb. kapak cover, kaput coat; from klaput and
oklapati /enwrap/) that could confirm such a hypotheses as well as
many other word-examples in Turkic languages. As for Semitic, I am
almost 100% sure that these languages were born from the same source
as IE.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
the serbian word may be of romance origin.
>
>
>
Yusuf B Gursey
the origin seems to be latin or rormance, as far as I can tell.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> > > What do you think? Arabic sabun (Pers. sâbun) is the same word as
> > > English soap (Ger. Seife, Ita. sapone, Fr. savone, Spa. jabon, Por.
> > > sabăo, Serb. sapun).
> > > Does it mean that the English word soap is of Arabic origin too?
> > > Be reasonable, please!
> > > OE sipian is clerly related to Serbian sipanje (dripping).
> > > Sapun (soap) is a clear-cut IE word which has been borrowed by Arabs,
> > > Turks etc.
>
> > arabic borrowedit from an IE language, persian or greek. the direction
> > of borrrowing is related to its invention.
>
> the serbian word may be of romance origin.
No, the word sapun/sabun/soap could only be sufficiently explained
with the help of the Serbo-Slavic vocabulary. The principal and the
first visible characteristic of the soap is its foaming (Serb.
zapeniti /to foam/ => sapunati /to soap/);
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 9, 9:11 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > What do you think? Arabic sabun (Pers. sâbun) is the same word as
> > > > English soap (Ger. Seife, Ita. sapone, Fr. savone, Spa. jabon, Por.
> > > > Does it mean that the English word soap is of Arabic origin too?
> > > > Be reasonable, please!
> > > > OE sipian is clerly related to Serbian sipanje (dripping).
> > > > Sapun (soap) is a clear-cut IE word which has been borrowed by Arabs,
> > > > Turks etc.
>
> > > arabic borrowedit from an IE language, persian or greek. the direction
> > > of borrrowing is related to its invention.
>
> > the serbian word may be of romance origin.
>
> No, the word sapun/sabun/soap could only be sufficiently explained
> with the help of the Serbo-Slavic vocabulary. The principal and the
> first visible characteristic of the soap is its foaming (Serb.
> zapeniti /to foam/ => sapunati /to soap/);
>
> DV
Por. esponja (foam) and sabão, sabonete (soap) is also close in
meanings but these words are not clearly related to the verb fill (Sp.
llenar; Fr. plein /fool/; Ita. pieno /full/); cf. Serbian pena (foam),
puno (full), puniti (to fill); ispuniti (to fill) => zapeniti (to
foam) => sapunati (to soap)
DV
aslan
news:bffebec2-5a68-4ebe...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
DV
--
If "kapi" were a Serbian loan, I would expect it to be something like
"kapiya" not "kapi". Why should we drop the last syllable?
--
Aslan
aslan
news:c734a604-309b-42ee...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
DV
--
kap = cape, mantle, cover, case
We have some words derived from kap.
kapamak = kap + -a- + -mak (to close, to shut)
(-a- makes verb from nouns; kan&kan-a-mak, ad&ad-a-mak etc)
kapak = kap + -a- + -k (cover)
kapali = kap + -a- + ? + -li (closed, covered)
kaplamak = kap + -la- + -mak (to cover)
(-la- makes verb from nouns; kat&kat-la-mak, yok&yok-la-mak etc)
kapsamak = kap + -sa- + -mak (to contain, to include)
(-sa- makes verb from nouns; su&su-sa-mak, yok&yok-sa-mak etc)
kapsam = kap + -sa- + -m (scope, embrace)
kapi < kap-u < kap-? is probably another derived word of it.
--
Aslan
Yusuf B Gursey
thanks.
> "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com>, iletisinde şunu yazdı,news:c734a604-309b-42ee...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Yusuf B Gursey
> Dželat (executioner; Turkish cellat); cf. gallows; OE galga is related
> to Serbian kolac (pole; cf. Turkish golcü executioner); In this case,
where did you get this turkish word, which can't be native, since it
is non-vowel harmonic. in modern turkish it is a soccer term, goalee,
from english.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > komca.
>
> > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
>
> komsija meaning?
neighbor? if so, turkish.
>
> > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
>
> kutija box? greek
>
> > džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> kajsija apricot? turkish < persian
>
> kapija meaning?
>
>
>
> > sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik, čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know
> > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks- Hide quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > komca.
>
> also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
dzelat < turkish (celllat) < arabic jalla:d (lit. "flogger")
> džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > komca.
>
> > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika, komšija, kovrdžav, kula,
> > kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
>
> dzelat < turkish (celllat) < arabic jalla:d (lit. "flogger")
I do not know what kind of dictionary you are using. Literal menaning
of Arabic 'jallad' is 'hangman' and it shows that it may be related to
gallows (galg; gallows, cross, pole).
DV
Trond Engen
> Yes, i was genuine when asking for the etymology. That doesn't mean
> that i was putting their slavic origin into question.
There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Serbian.
These are mutually exclusive. To avoid confusion with verifiable
linguistic history, you should have made clear from the start that you
wanted a Serbian answer.
--
Trond Engen
- just as genuine
phog...@abo.fi
>
>
> There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Turkish/
> Arabic.
What a load of crap. If Serbian has lots of words that cannot be found
in other Slavic languages or traced back to known Slavic word stems,
the scientific conclusion is, that those words must have come in from
other languages. Serbian has been coexisting with Turkish for
centuries in the Balkans. Thus, if we find those words in Turkish, and
if those words can be explained as Turkish loanwords or Perso-Arabic
loanwords via Turkish, the natural explanation is that they must have
come in that way. The universal scientific principle called Occam's
Razor says, that we in this case must accept the Turkish or Perso-
Arabic origins of those words as the most plausible origins.
As long as this group is concerned, it indeed seems that Trond is
right as far as the Serbian approach to etymology is concerned. The
Serbs in this group have been a disgrace to humanity, while Yusuf is
easily the most civilized and cultured person in the group. His
learned contribution and humble manners are justly appreciated by all.
Dušan Vukotić
What are you talking about? I do respect Yusuf and I never told a
single word against him. We are just discussing some matters where we
can have different opinions.. that's all!
If someone is disgrace to humanity it could only be the people of your
kind who are constantly plotting and intriguing; people who do not
deserve to be called human beings at all.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 10, 11:05 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 10:26 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
> > > stefan_ste...@hotmail.com skreiv:
> > asked for the etymology and i said i never doubted their slavic
> > origin. I am not an expert so my beliefs could've been easily proven,
> > but as far as i know i haven't received one but the one that just
> > enforces my belief that they are serbian, Dusan's explanation. i have
> > stated on several occasions that if you have evidence that proves
> > otherwise go ahead and give it but other than just repeating the one
> > and only thing "they are turkish, they are arabic" no SCIENTIFIC or
> > LINGUISTIC proof has been given so unless you prove otherwise they ARE
> > serbian. Just deal with it, you and the rest. And what do you consider
> > SCINETIFIC, by not giving any detailed etymologies of those words and
> > by constantly discarding the opposing argument with no proof that they
> > are wrong? you want science but you're ignorant when one wants science
> > from you.
>
> There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Turkish/
> Arabic.
There is no need for harsh words, Stefan.
Yusuf is an old sci.lang member, honest, correct and his answers/posts
are often very useful.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
You are a very bad man, Dushan. Stefan is also a very bad man. You
both being Serbs suggests that there is some logical connection there.
Dušan Vukotić
> stefan_ste...@hotmail.com skreiv:
Engine, why don't you stop barking from behind the fence? Why don't
you get out of your kennel and fight like a noble canine warrior!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Hog Loony, you are a very good man... for mental institutions, of
course.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
the etymological meaning seems to be as I stated.
> gallows (galg; gallows, cross, pole).
no.
>
> DV
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 10, 10:26 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
> > stefan_ste...@hotmail.com skreiv:
> asked for the etymology and i said i never doubted their slavic
> origin. I am not an expert so my beliefs could've been easily proven,
> but as far as i know i haven't received one but the one that just
> enforces my belief that they are serbian, Dusan's explanation. i have
> stated on several occasions that if you have evidence that proves
> otherwise go ahead and give it but other than just repeating the one
> and only thing "they are turkish, they are arabic" no SCIENTIFIC or
I give answers that are generally accepted in linguistic sources. I
didn't give prooof for the sake of brevity and since no meanings were
given I wasn't sure what word I was dealing with.
phog...@abo.fi
I see that you are well acquainted with mental institutions. I hope
you will continue and deepen your acquaintance,
Dušan Vukotić
> On 10 helmi, 19:46, "Duðan Vukotiã" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 6:14 pm, phogl...@abo.fi wrote:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hog Loony, don't worry, I 'll do whatever is in my power to help
mentally deranged people of your kind.
Rauha is going to be reopened... specially for you!
Peace be upon you, Hog Loony!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 10, 2:51 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 4:16 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > komca.
>
>
> > > dzelat < turkish (celllat) < arabic jalla:d (lit. "flogger")
>
> > I do not know what kind of dictionary you are using. Literal menaning
> > of Arabic 'jallad' is 'hangman' and it shows that it may be related to
>
> the etymological meaning seems to be as I stated.
>
> > gallows (galg; gallows, cross, pole).
>
> no.
I found 'jallad' only as "executioner" or "hangman"; see the links
bellow:
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 10, 7:12 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 2:51 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 10, 4:16 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > > komca.
>
> > > > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
> > > > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> > > > dzelat < turkish (celllat) < arabic jalla:d (lit. "flogger")
>
> > > I do not know what kind of dictionary you are using. Literal menaning
> > > of Arabic 'jallad' is 'hangman' and it shows that it may be related to
>
> > the etymological meaning seems to be as I stated.
>
> > > gallows (galg; gallows, cross, pole).
>
> > no.
>
> I found 'jallad' only as "executioner" or "hangman"; see the links
> bellow:
that does not seem to be the original meaning, as jalada means to
flog.
later, it seems his duties were extended :)
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Xp8CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA578&dq=arabic+jall...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=42oUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=arabic+jalla...- Hide quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 10, 2:50 pm, "Dušan Vukotić" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 10, 7:12 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 10, 2:51 am, "Du¹an Vukotiæ" <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 10, 4:16 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > > > komca.
>
> > > > > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
> > > > > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> > > > > dzelat < turkish (celllat) < arabic jalla:d (lit. "flogger")
>
> > > > I do not know what kind of dictionary you are using. Literal menaning
> > > > of Arabic 'jallad' is 'hangman' and it shows that it may be related to
>
> > > the etymological meaning seems to be as I stated.
>
> > > > gallows (galg; gallows, cross, pole).
>
> > > no.
>
> > I found 'jallad' only as "executioner" or "hangman"; see the links
> > bellow:
>
> that does not seem to be the original meaning, as jalada means to
> flog.
BTW Sh. Sami (1901) confirms this
> later, it seems his duties were extended :)
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=Xp8CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA578&dq=arabic+jall...
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=42oUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=arabic+jalla...Hide quoted text -
>
Yusuf B Gursey
> zejtin (olive?) is turkish < arabic
turkish zeytin < arabic zaytu:n
>
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 12:06 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
>
>
>
> > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
>
> katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
> kazan (cauldron?) is turkish
>
> > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
> barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
> boja (paint?) is turkish
> budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
>
> > > d¾ep, kajsija, kapija, le¹, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
turkish cep <arabic jayb (originally "bossom" (an amulet hung there))
> les (corpse?) is turkish
> sanduk (chest?) is turkish < arabic
arabic Sandu:q , Sundu:q < old greek
> sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
>
> > > sat, tavan, zejtin, èelik, èirak, èizma, èièak, èoban, para...i know
>
> tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
> celik (steel?) is turkish
possibly < persian
> cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
> cizma (boot?) is turkish < ?
> cicak (flower?) is turkish
turkish c,ic,ek (chichek)
> coban (shepherd?) is turkish < iranian
> para (money?) is turkish < persian
turkish para (money, formerly also a monetary unit) < persian pa:ra
"piece"
>
>
>
> > > it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks
>
> > some of them seem to be turkish, but to be sure I would have to know
> > their meanings.- Hide quoted text -
Paul J Kriha
Hey, you forgot to mention the Baltic strain which seems to
be mutually exclusive with either of the two you mentioned.
pjk
- adding a dimension
P.S. In 1995, or thereabout, we also had here a Basque-Slavic
strain. I wonder what happened to that guy (was it Mike Wilton?).
He insisted that Basque was related to Slavic, especially to
Czech and Slovak.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Turkish çiçek (flower) is just another example of Serbian loanwords in
Turkish. Namely, čičak (in Serbian) doesn't mean flower but "thistle"
and it is related to IE *keg- (hook; Serb. kuka) and other Serbian
words like kačiti (attach, to hook), čačkanje (pick; from kačkanje,
kačenje hook, hinge), čačkalica (toothpick).
Para (money; Serb. pare) is known in Persian (pârce piece, segment)
but it is also a common IE word (Eng. parcel, portion; Serb. parče
piece; Lat. pars, partis).
Čizma (boot) is the Hungarian word (csizma); but Turkish bot, potin
(boot) is borrowed from Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb
obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb. obuća shoes, obleka
cloth).
DV
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Turkish tavan (ceiling) and Serbian tavan (attic, loft) are very
imteresting words because they seem to be related to Serbian adjective
'tavno/tavan' (dark); Aramaic ṭellālā (shade, ceiling; Arabic zallal
dark) might be in connection with Serbian/Turkish/Arabic tavan. Serbo-
Slavic tamno (Russ. темный/temniy; Czech temný, tma, tajemný, tmavý,
temno; Serb. tmina darkness, po-tamnilo darkened) is derived from Gon-
Bel-Gon basis similar to the other Serbian words as dubina (deepness),
tamnica/tavnica (prison, jail). In case of the Serbian words tavan/
taman (dark) the b=>m sound change is clearly visible. Serbian tavan
(loft) and tavanica (ceiling) are clearly related to Serbian tavnica/
tamnica (prison, jail). In reality, ancient man realized that as you
go deeper (Serbian dubina) under the ground the environment is getting
more and more dark (Serb. tavno/tamno); it means that prison is a dark
space as well as it is the space above the ceiling - Serb. tavan
(loft, attic).
Finally, if we compare English ceiling and cellar/cell (German Keller
basement; from Latin celare con-cealing covering, hiding) we will be
able to understand the logic of the development of Serbo-Slavic words
tavan (loft), tavanica, tavnica (ceiling), tavnica/tamnica (prison)
and tavan/taman (dark; tmina darkness).
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
çiçek is a very old owrd in turkish, itgcan't possibly be a serbian
loanowrd.
> Turkish. Namely, čičak (in Serbian) doesn't mean flower but "thistle"
> and it is related to IE *keg- (hook; Serb. kuka) and other Serbian
> words like kačiti (attach, to hook), čačkanje (pick; from kačkanje,
> kačenje hook, hinge), čačkalica (toothpick).
>
> Para (money; Serb. pare) is known in Persian (pârce piece, segment)
> but it is also a common IE word (Eng. parcel, portion; Serb. parče
> piece; Lat. pars, partis).
it is still a loanword and not a cognate.
>
> Čizma (boot) is the Hungarian word (csizma); but Turkish bot, potin
I don;tknwo the origin of c,izme.
> (boot) is borrowed from Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb
> obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb. obuća shoes, obleka
> cloth).
>
> DV- Hide quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
turkish bot is from french. it is a very recent word.
> (boot) is borrowed from Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb
> obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb. obuća shoes, obleka
> cloth).
>
> DV- Hide quoted text -
Yusuf B Gursey
OTOH it appears early in turkish,making it unlikley to be a loanword.
Paul J Kriha
news:cedeba84-4919-4350...@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 11, 4:39 pm, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
>wrote:
>> "Trond Engen" <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
>messagenews:2uednRDTV_R...@telenor.com...
>> > stefan_ste...@hotmail.com skreiv:
>>
>> > > Yes, i was genuine when asking for the etymology. That doesn't mean
>> > > that i was putting their slavic origin into question.
>>
>> > There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Serbian.
>> > These are mutually exclusive. To avoid confusion with verifiable
>> > linguistic history, you should have made clear from the start that you
>> > wanted a Serbian answer.
>> > --
>> > Trond Engen
>> > - just as genuine
>>
>> Hey, you forgot to mention the Baltic strain which seems to
>> be mutually exclusive with either of the two you mentioned.
>>
>> pjk
>> - adding a dimension
>>
>> P.S. In 1995, or thereabout, we also had here a Basque-Slavic
>> strain. I wonder what happened to that guy (was it Mike Wilton?).
>> He insisted that Basque was related to Slavic, especially to
>> Czech and Slovak.
>
Oh CRIKEY! Hello there!
So.... you've been hinding in Serbia for the last thirteen years
and changed your name.
pjk
Joachim Pense
>
> Basque is SCIENTIFICALLY proven to have 40% words identical to SERBIAN.
Baske has been scientifically proven to be the ancestor of every other
language of the world.
Harlan Messinger
> On Feb 11, 4:39 pm, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
>> "Trond Engen" <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in messagenews:2uednRDTV_R...@telenor.com...
>>>> Yes, i was genuine when asking for the etymology. That doesn't mean
>>>> that i was putting their slavic origin into question.
>>> There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Serbian.
>>> These are mutually exclusive. To avoid confusion with verifiable
>>> linguistic history, you should have made clear from the start that you
>>> wanted a Serbian answer.
>>> --
>>> Trond Engen
>>> - just as genuine
>> Hey, you forgot to mention the Baltic strain which seems to
>> be mutually exclusive with either of the two you mentioned.
>>
>> pjk
>> - adding a dimension
>>
>> P.S. In 1995, or thereabout, we also had here a Basque-Slavic
>> strain. I wonder what happened to that guy (was it Mike Wilton?).
>> He insisted that Basque was related to Slavic, especially to
>> Czech and Slovak.
>
"Identical"? Gosh, you'd think if 40% of the words were *identical* (you
do know what "identical" means, I assume), then it wouldn't take a
scientific proof for everyone who knows one of the language and has ever
looked at the other to see it instantly.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 12:06 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > komca.
>
> jastuk (pillow?), jogurt (yoghurt?) are also from turkish.
>
>
>
> > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
>
> kasa (safe?) is from italian posssibly via turkish
> katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
qaTra:n seems native to arabic.
> kazan (cauldron?) is turkish
>
> > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> alat (if "tool") is turkish < arabic
> pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
> barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
arabic ba:ru:d see Enc. of Islam II aricle for details
> boja (paint?) is turkish
> budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
>
> > > d¾ep, kajsija, kapija, le¹, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
> les (corpse?) is turkish
< persian
> sanduk (chest?) is turkish < arabic
> sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
>
> > > sat, tavan, zejtin, èelik, èirak, èizma, èièak, èoban, para...i know
>
> tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
> celik (steel?) is turkish
> cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
> cizma (boot?) is turkish < ?
> cicak (flower?) is turkish
> coban (shepherd?) is turkish < iranian
> para (money?) is turkish < persian
>
>
>
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 7, 1:51 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 12:06 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > since you didn't gived the meanings, I'll have to guess them. corrrect
> > me if I'm wrong.
>
> > > On Feb 6, 11:44 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 7, 3:20 pm, stefan_ste...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek,
> > > > > jastuk, dusek, butina, kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt,
> > > > > komca.
>
> > jastuk (pillow?), jogurt (yoghurt?) are also from turkish.
>
> > > > also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, ka¹ika, kom¹ija, kovrd¾av, kula,
>
> > kasa (safe?) is from italian posssibly via turkish
> > katran (tar?) is via turkish < arabic < ?
>
> > > > kutija, kvrèkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, duæan, d¾elat,
>
> > alat (if "tool") is turkish < arabic
> > pamuk (cotton?) is turkish < persian?
> > barut (gunpowder) is turkish < arabic
> > budala (stupid?) is turkish < arabic
>
> > > > d¾ep, kajsija, kapija, le¹, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun,
>
> > dzep (pocket?) is turkish < arabic
> > les (corpse?) is turkish
> > sapun (soap?) is turkish? < arabic < ?
>
>
>
turkish maymun < arabic maymu:n (originally "lucky:)
Yusuf B Gursey
> from.- Hide quoted text -
french did not borrow from serbian acc. to standard linguistics
Dušan Vukotić
> > > > Čizma (boot) is the Hungarian word (csizma); but Turkish bot, potin
>
> > > turkish bot is from french. it is a very recent word.
>
> > > > (boot) is borrowed from Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb
> > > > obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb. obuća shoes, obleka
> > > > cloth).
>
> > > > DV- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > just a proof of where the french botte/bottine and english boot come
> > from.- Hide quoted text -
>
> french did not borrow from serbian acc. to standard linguistics
Boot (French boots, botillon, bottine; Spanish bota) is a clear-cut
Serbo-Slavic word (Serbian buce, patike, opanke; Russian ботинок;
Czech bota, obuv, obout /to shoe/); from the verb obuti <= oblačiti
(shoe, clothe); from oblog (coating); from oblak (cloud); from Bel
(the sun deity);
All the above words are closely related to other IE words as hoof
(Serbian kopito; Russian копыто; Czech kopyto) and Latin words aqua
(water) and equus (horse) but in order to understand it we need the
highest possible linguistic education "garnished" with my Xur-Bel-Gon
- Human Speech Formula ;-)
Even Arabic hafir (pl. of huf, khif /hoof/) and Hebrew `aqeb
(horseshoofs, cf. Serb. okov fetter, shoe) belong to the same Bel-Gon
ur-basis; cf. Aramaic ˁeqbā heel/hoof.
DV
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Feb 11, 4:39 pm, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@paradise.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Trond Engen" <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in messagenews:2uednRDTV_R...@telenor.com...
>
> > > > Yes, i was genuine when asking for the etymology. That doesn't mean
> > > > that i was putting their slavic origin into question.
>
> > > There are two approaches to etymology, the scientific and the Serbian.
> > > These are mutually exclusive. To avoid confusion with verifiable
> > > linguistic history, you should have made clear from the start that you
> > > wanted a Serbian answer.
> > > --
> > > Trond Engen
> > > - just as genuine
>
> > Hey, you forgot to mention the Baltic strain which seems to
> > be mutually exclusive with either of the two you mentioned.
>
> > pjk
> > - adding a dimension
>
> > P.S. In 1995, or thereabout, we also had here a Basque-Slavic
> > strain. I wonder what happened to that guy (was it Mike Wilton?).
> > He insisted that Basque was related to Slavic, especially to
> > Czech and Slovak.
>
Wow! That's so cool! Could you translate 40% of this for me please?
NAFAR LURRAK KOLOREZ JANTZIZ
GURE HIZKUNTZ ZAHARRA DINEZ DOA
ETA DINEZ EUSKARARI ABESTUZ
HUAJOLOTEAK TUTERARA GOAZ.
BETI IZAN DA GURE ERRIBERA
NAFARROA HANDIKO ATEA
ETA ATE HORI ZABALIK DAGO
LUR HAU MAITE DUENARENTZAT.
ZATOZ BA NAFARROA DINEZ-ERA
IKUSI ESANDAKOA EGIA DELA
JENDEAREN ALAITASUNEAN
ETA NESKA-MUTIKOEN BEGIETAN.
TRIKI TA GAITAK ENTZUTEN DIRA
BERTSOLARIAK BIHOTZAK BIROTZEN
ETA ZUREA LAPURTU NAHIEAN
JOTA MAKARRA HAU DIZUGU KANTATZEN.
BERE HIZKUNTZA GALOU EZKERO
HERRIA HANKAMOTZ DABIL
TA NAFARROA DINEZ-EN ETXOITEN DIZUT
MAKULUEKIN BEHAR BALITZ.
Thanks!
Ross Clark
Dušan Vukotić
> On Feb 13, 5:22 am, Harlan Messinger
>
>
>
>
>
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> or historian' who (in reality) doesn't have a single brain cell or
> backed by the nordic school.Well i guess people intentionally didn't
> want to look at the similarity between serbian and basque. It wasn't
> the first time they turned a blind eye on Serbian and other slavic
> languages when trying to look for similarities and etymologies of
> languages, for example Ethruscan. 'scientists' and 'linguists' looked
> at CENTRAL AFRICAN languages to decipher Ethruscan along with asian,
> romance, germanic BUT conveniently enough didn't use Serbian. Why?
> because using Serbian even an amateur could read what the incriptions
> say. So take you pathetic little brain and go read something that
> wasn't written by one of the nordic charlatans but before the nordic
> school....Off you go.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Stefan, it is nice to be fervent when our Serbian nation is in
question but it cannot help us at all if we try to prove that Etruscan
has anything in common with Serbian and other Slavic languages.
Etruscan is an isolated language and for now no one knows exactly
where the Etruscan people originated from.
Mario Alinei connects Etruscans with the Turks and Magyars
(Hungarians), but I think such a tongue-parallels could be drawn
between Etruscan and any other (European or non-European) language.
For instance, Alinei compares Etruscan rasna (territory, region,
country) and Old Hungarian resz (region, territory; Modern Hungarian
rész portion, segment) not seeing at all that he chose the words that
could be explained by IE vocabulary, in this case even with the word
'region' (Latin regio -onis ; Serb. okrug, kraj; Gr. ουρανός heaven,
region of heaven; Serb. krug /circle/ from Hor-Gon basis; cf. Gr.
υπαρχεια district <=> Serb. parče part, Lat. pars, partis; Serb.
pokrajina province).
It is interesting that Alinei wasn't able to understand that the
Hungarian word úr (landowner, lord) is clearly related to Germanic
*her (sir), hero (Her-cules) and Latin rex (king), which is from its
side in connection with the above mentioned regio as well as with the
words like Eng. arrange-ment or Serbian uređenje (settlement, system,
regulation, organization), rank, Skt. rajan etc.
Above 'rasna' (Raseni) reminded us (the Serbs) to the "alternative"
name Rašani/Rasi, the name the Serbs called themselves in Middle Ages.
Nevertheless, there is a possibility that Serbian Rašani are
indirectly related to Raseni through the meaning of 'rasna' (region)
because the Slavic names Rašani, Rusi, Ukrajinci, Krajina, Krajišnici
belong to the names that are derived from Hor-Gon basis and the basic
meaning of these names is 'krug' (circle), 'okrug' (district) and
'kraj' (brink, edging, brim, verge, territory); i.e. "the people who
are living on the same teritory". Of course, we must know that Serbo-
Slavic 'krug' (circle; OE hring) comes from the Hor/s divinity (Gr.
Uranos and his son Cronos), "directly" from the Sun and it is the
reason why the H/Aryans are "noble, honorable and respectable" people
(cf. Irish, German from Hor-Bel-Gon basis; Herban => German;
Charlemagne/Carolingian.
Now, I hope, you are able to see that the names of Serbs, Slavs and
Germans are derived from the same H/Sur-Bel-Gon basis; i.e. my HSF
(Human Speech Formula) is indirectly based upon the names of Germans
and Serbs/Slavs.
There are other hypotheses for the origin of Etruscan (Semitic,
Etruscan - IE parallel via Armenian) but none of them could be
considered as correct or proven one. Some "experts" also "concluded"
that Etruscan name was in fact the "name of Russians" (Etruscan =>
русский/Russkiy).
Here is an example of Etruscan inscription
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruskTextsEn_files/image003.gif
and, as you can see, there is no Serb/Slav, even the most educated one
who would be able to decipher it with the help of the Serbian/Slavic
language.
Compare Serbian/Slavic vocabulary with the known list of Etruscan
words and you will understand that the "epic" stories, that some
Serbian quasi-scientists launched just to heat up the national
"pride", have nothing in common with the reality.
DV
Harlan Messinger
> Even if they look as i have it's one man against a 'learned linguist
> or historian' who (in reality) doesn't have a single brain cell or
> backed by the nordic school.Well i guess people intentionally didn't
> want to look at the similarity between serbian and basque. It wasn't
> the first time they turned a blind eye on Serbian and other slavic
> languages when trying to look for similarities and etymologies of
> languages, for example Ethruscan. 'scientists' and 'linguists' looked
> at CENTRAL AFRICAN languages to decipher Ethruscan along with asian,
> romance, germanic BUT conveniently enough didn't use Serbian. Why?
> because using Serbian even an amateur could read what the incriptions
> say. So take you pathetic little brain and go read something that
> wasn't written by one of the nordic charlatans but before the nordic
> school....Off you go.
OK, smarty-pants, tell me what this segment from today's Basque
Wikipedia home page says. Since 40% of it is identical to Serbian, I'm
sure you'll be able to translate a large chunk of it in an instant.
Bizkaia Euskal Herriko zazpi lurraldeetako bat da. Administratiboki,
Euskal Autonomia Erkidegoko foru probintzia edo lurralde historikoa da,
honen mendebaldean kokatua. Iparraldean Bizkaiko Golkoa du; hegoaldean
Burgos eta Araba; mendebaldean, Kantabria eta Burgos eta ekialdean
Gipuzkoa. 2.217km²-ko azalera eta 1.136.181 biztanle ditu Bizkaiak.
Euskal Herriko herrialderik populatuena da eta Bilbo Handiak osatzen du
gaur egun dagoen konurbazio garrantzitsu bakarra. Hiriburua Bilbo da.
Dušan Vukotić
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Are Etruscan and Basque the same language?
E(tr)uskara?
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Feb 13, 7:14 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > > Čizma (boot) is the Hungarian word (csizma); but Turkish bot, potin
>
> > > > turkish bot is from french. it is a very recent word.
>
> > > > > (boot) is borrowed from Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb
> > > > > obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb. obuća shoes, obleka
> > > > > cloth).
>
> > > > > DV- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > just a proof of where the french botte/bottine and english boot come
> > > from.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > french did not borrow from serbian acc. to standard linguistics
>
> Boot (French boots, botillon, bottine; Spanish bota) is a clear-cut
> Serbo-Slavic word (Serbian buce, patike, opanke; Russian ботинок;
> Czech bota, obuv, obout /to shoe/); from the verb obuti <= oblačiti
> (shoe, clothe); from oblog (coating); from oblak (cloud); from Bel
> (the sun deity);
I said acc. to standard linguistics, which is not what you are doing.
> All the above words are closely related to other IE words as hoof
> (Serbian kopito; Russian копыто; Czech kopyto) and Latin words aqua
> (water) and equus (horse) but in order to understand it we need the
> highest possible linguistic education "garnished" with my Xur-Bel-Gon
> - Human Speech Formula ;-)
> Even Arabic hafir (pl. of huf, khif /hoof/) and Hebrew `aqeb
hafir (whatever you mean by that) is no the plural of xuff (slippers)
> (horseshoofs, cf. Serb. okov fetter, shoe) belong to the same Bel-Gon
> ur-basis; cf. Aramaic ˁeqbā heel/hoof.
>
Dušan Vukotić
Typo... Arabic hawafir (pl. of hafir hoof)
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
Hawa:fir , Ha:fir
John Atkinson
> Are Etruscan and Basque the same language?
Of course they are. After all, two things that are equal to the same
thing are equal to each other. And we know that both Basque and
Etruscan are identical to Serbian.
J.
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Feb 7, 12:06?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
:> > sat, tavan, zejtin, ?elik, ?irak, ?izma, ?i?ak, ?oban, para...i know
: tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
: celik (steel?) is turkish
< persian?
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Feb 7, 12:06?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
: cirak (apprentice?) is turkish < ?
< persian
Dušan Vukotić
> In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote in <94875d1a-90c6-4e62-9b0e-90d944046...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>:
> : On Feb 7, 12:06?am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> :> > sat, tavan, zejtin, ?elik, ?irak, ?izma, ?i?ak, ?oban, para...i know
>
> : tavan (ceiling?) is turkish
> : celik (steel?) is turkish
> < persian?
Didn't you read what I wrote about čelik and tavan:
http://my.opera.com/vukotic/blog/2008/02/07/stars-made-of-iron
As you've already been told by Stefan, it makes no sense just to
repeat that a certain word is "Turkish", you should try to explain its
history.
Etymology is (if you didn't know) a history of a word.
http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/etymology
[..."Etymology the history of a linguistic form (as a word) shown by
tracing its development since its earliest recorded occurrence in the
language where it is found, by tracing its transmission from one
language to another, by analyzing it into its component parts, by
identifying its cognates in other languages, or by tracing it and its
cognates to a common ancestral form in an ancestral language"..]
DV
aslan
-ik makes nouns from verbs.
ex: kes& kes-ik, del&del-ik, yit&yit-ik, ez&ez-ik, oy&oy-uk, kon&kon-uk,
solu&solu-k, sol&sol-uk, iste& iste-k
çel-mek means hit, hammer, forge
çel-ik means hammered/forged (iron). thereby later steel.
--
Aslan
"Dušan Vukotić" <dusan....@gmail.com>, iletisinde şunu yazdi,
news:8e96e796-8ba5-4cef...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Yusuf B Gursey
: çelik = çel-ik
: -ik makes nouns from verbs.
: ex: kes& kes-ik, del&del-ik, yit&yit-ik, ez&ez-ik, oy&oy-uk, kon&kon-uk,
: solu&solu-k, sol&sol-uk, iste& iste-k
: çel-mek means hit, hammer, forge
: çel-ik means hammered/forged (iron). thereby later steel.
yes. that's one possibility. Nis,anyan also mentions a persian alternative
*ch*i:la:ng
: --
: Aslan
: "Duąan Vukotić" <dusan....@gmail.com>, iletisinde şunu yazdi,
aslan
--
Aslan
"Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@TheWorld.com>, iletisinde sunu yazdi,
news:fp4o5g$hql$1...@pcls6.std.com...
> In sci.lang aslan <aslans...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> <fp4674$mf0$1...@aioe.org>:
> : çelik = çel-ik
> : -ik makes nouns from verbs.
> : ex: kes& kes-ik, del&del-ik, yit&yit-ik, ez&ez-ik, oy&oy-uk, kon&kon-uk,
> : solu&solu-k, sol&sol-uk, iste& iste-k
>
> : çel-mek means hit, hammer, forge
> : çel-ik means hammered/forged (iron). thereby later steel.
>
>
> yes. that's one possibility. Nis,anyan also mentions a persian alternative
> *ch*i:la:ng
>
Yes, she (he?) also mentions it's possibly borrowed from Turkish.
>
> : --
>
> : Aslan
>
Yusuf B Gursey
: --
*he* mentions it may alsobe *derived* from turkish.
:>
:> : --
:>
:> : Aslan
:>
Dušan Vukotić
> In sci.lang aslan <aslanski2...@yahoo.com> wrote in <fp4674$mf...@aioe.org>:
> : çelik = çel-ik
> : -ik makes nouns from verbs.
> : ex: kes& kes-ik, del&del-ik, yit&yit-ik, ez&ez-ik, oy&oy-uk, kon&kon-uk,
> : solu&solu-k, sol&sol-uk, iste& iste-k
>
> : çel-mek means hit, hammer, forge
> : çel-ik means hammered/forged (iron). thereby later steel.
>
> yes. that's one possibility. Nis,anyan also mentions a persian alternative
> *ch*i:la:ng
>
> : --
>
> : Aslan
We can also say that Serbian verb čeličiti means 'to steel' (toughen,
harden) and it seems to be more logical because steel is a "hardened
iron". Serbian verb kaliti (case-harden; braze) additionaly
corroborates the vew that čelik (steel) is Serbo-Slavic word.
DV
aslan
"Dušan Vukotić" <dusan....@gmail.com>, iletisinde şunu yazdi,
news:f521885a-15ec-4c18...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
DV
*************
You may have made that word after çelik was borrowed from Turkish.
What do you mean by Serbo-Slavic? Bulgarian/Macedonian/Serbian? Any other?
Those 3 should have borrowed it fromTurkish. Those 3 languages have the same
form of the verb as in Turkish. That makes it likely that it's not so old in
those languages.
Aslan