Hungarian GY (was Trilled R)
CLM777
and the Czech R-HACEK were very helpful. Can anyone explain how to
pronounce the "GY" in Hungarian? This sound also appears in Latvian as G'
. CLMoore, Arlington, VA
Rich Wales
Can anyone explain how to pronounce the "GY" in
Hungarian?
Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
Put the middle of your tongue in contact with your hard palate. The
point of greatest pressure between tongue and palate is near the front
of the palate -- farther forward than for "g", but farther back than
for "d".
With your tongue in this position, start vibrating your vocal cords,
and then immediately pull the tongue back and down to release the air
stream.
"Gy" sounds kind of like English soft "g" (as in "cage"), but it isn't
the same because the point of articulation for English soft "g" is at
the tip of the tongue rather than in the middle. The English soft "g"
does exist in some Hungarian words, where it is spelled "dzs".
Hungarian "ty" (a palatalized "t") is the voiceless, unaspirated coun-
terpart of "gy". Again, it is important to distinguish "ty" from the
English "ch" sound (which is common in Hungarian and is spelled "cs").
The same tongue position is also used for "ny" (a palatalized "n").
Rich Wales (ri...@opentext.com; formerly ri...@mks.com)
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Paul Talacko
ri...@opentext.com (Rich Wales) wrote:
>Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
Does that make it the same as the Czech d-hacek?
Paul Talacko
ta...@yarn.demon.co.uk
ptal...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Daniel von Brighoff
Paul Talacko <ta...@yarn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <41oaag$r...@ia.mks.com>,
>ri...@opentext.com (Rich Wales) wrote:
>
>>Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
>
>Does that make it the same as the Czech d-hacek?
It would if there were such a letter. ^_^
Seriously, Hungarian gy is approximately equivalent to Czech
d' or to d before i, /i, or e-ha^cek and to Croation barred-d/
dj.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Joerg Knappen
:In article <AC6DCE5D...@yarn.demon.co.uk>,
:Paul Talacko <ta...@yarn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>In article <41oaag$r...@ia.mks.com>,
:>ri...@opentext.com (Rich Wales) wrote:
:>
:>>Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
:>
:>Does that make it the same as the Czech d-hacek?
:
:It would if there were such a letter. ^_^
It is in fact a d-hachek, look at the capital d': D
--J"org Knappen.
:
:Seriously, Hungarian gy is approximately equivalent to Czech
Paul J. Kriha
de...@woodlawn.uchicago.edu (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <AC6DCE5D...@yarn.demon.co.uk>,
>Paul Talacko <ta...@yarn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <41oaag$r...@ia.mks.com>,
>>ri...@opentext.com (Rich Wales) wrote:
>>
>>>Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
>>
>>Does that make it the same as the Czech d-hacek?
>
>It would if there were such a letter. ^_^
>
>d' or to d before i, /i, or e-ha^cek and to Croation barred-d/
>dj.
Well there _is_ d-hacek (as well as t-hacek).
Handwritten d' is usually written as d-with-hacek.
It's only in machine print that na apostrophy is used
to qualify soft d or t.
Paul JK
Paul Talacko
>>>Hungarian "gy" is a palatalized version of "d".
>>
>>Does that make it the same as the Czech d-hacek?
>
>It would if there were such a letter. ^_^
>
>Seriously, Hungarian gy is approximately equivalent to Czech
>d' or to d before i, /i, or e-ha^cek and to Croation barred-d/
>dj.
That explains why Hungary (Magyar....or however it is spelt) is in Czech
Mad^arsko.
Paul Talacko
ta...@yarn.demon.co.uk
ptal...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Paul J. Kriha
Exactly!
Mad^ar = Magyar, i.e. a Hungarian person
Which is a Czech phonetic transcription of what
a male Hungarian would call himself.
-sko is a Czech suffix.
Paul JK
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
>Seriously, Hungarian gy is approximately equivalent to Czech
>d' or to d before i, /i, or e-ha^cek and to Croation barred-d/
>dj.
How about the Japanese sound represented in the usual Romaji
by "j"?
Coby
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
Paul J. Kriha <kri...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>Mad^ar = Magyar, i.e. a Hungarian person
>
>Which is a Czech phonetic transcription of what
>a male Hungarian would call himself.
What about the vowels, though? Wouldn't Hungarian _a_ (without an
acute accent) sound closer to Czech _o_?
Coby
Rich Wales
What about the vowels, though? Wouldn't Hungarian _a_
(without an acute accent) sound closer to Czech _o_?
Not really. Hungarian short A is slightly rounded, but it is still
noticeably more open than Czech O.
Paul J. Kriha
>Paul J. Kriha <kri...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>
>>Mad^ar = Magyar, i.e. a Hungarian person
>>
>>Which is a Czech phonetic transcription of what
>>a male Hungarian would call himself.
>
>acute accent) sound closer to Czech _o_?
>
You could be right. As with many loan words, this is
probably another case of what Czechs hear, believe
to hear or *expect* to hear rather than what Hungarians
actually say.
Czechs/Slovaks have exchanged a few words with Hungarians.
They do get mangled somewhat in either direction. :-)
Paul JK
Rich Wales
Yes, I believe Magyarorszag is the Hungarian name for
Hungary, where Magyaror might be the plural of Magyar?
Magyarorsza'g = magyar (Hungarian) + orsza'g (country).
Note, of course, that accent marks in Hungarian indicate vowel length
(and, in the case of accented A and E, also a difference in vowel qual-
ity). The stress accent in Hungarian is always on the first syllable.
The plural of "magyar" is "magyarok".
Alexander Kiefer
>In article <42fa08$3...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> co...@euler.Berkeley.EDU (Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) wrote:
>>In article <42ek4h$p4_...@actrix.gen.nz>,
>>Paul J. Kriha <kri...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>Mad^ar = Magyar, i.e. a Hungarian person
>>>
>>>Which is a Czech phonetic transcription of what
>>>a male Hungarian would call himself.
>>
>>What about the vowels, though? Wouldn't Hungarian _a_ (without an
>>acute accent) sound closer to Czech _o_?
Yes, indeed, both pronounciations exist.
The one with "a" and the one with "o".
They both seem to have diffrent meaning though:-)
>You could be right. As with many loan words, this is
>probably another case of what Czechs hear, believe
>to hear or *expect* to hear rather than what Hungarians
>actually say.
I think that it has to do with phonemes of a particular
language. Some French words and expressions in English
have a double pronounciation too, one English and one
French which conveys a slightly different meaning too.
When you say Quebecois instead of Quebecker better watch
your head:-)
>Czechs/Slovaks have exchanged a few words with Hungarians.
>They do get mangled somewhat in either direction. :-)
Thats still far away from how English "mangles":-)
Ever heard an Anglophone pronounce Latin:-)
Alexander
Ruud Harmsen
>>>Seriously, Hungarian gy is approximately equivalent to Czech
>>>d' or to d before i, /i, or e-ha^cek and to Croation barred-d/
>>>dj.
>>
>>Mad^arsko.
>>
>Exactly!
>Mad^ar = Magyar, i.e. a Hungarian person
>Which is a Czech phonetic transcription of what
>a male Hungarian would call himself.
>-sko is a Czech suffix.
>Paul JK
Karoly Banicz
,
Magyarorszag Magyar 'Hungarian' in Hungarian
, There are no genders in Hungarian.
orszag {OR-sahg] land, country
GY is indeed the same sound as the Czech D'. The reason why it's spelled
this way (not following the the pattern of other palatalized consonants:
n-->ny, t-->ty and thus D-->DY) is that this sound used to be closer to
[j] (like GIorno in Italian), and the writers, probably influenced by the
Italian spelling, chose GY centuries ago.
I haven't heard in other languages an equivalent of the Hungarian A. In
English, the closest approximation I can think of is in the American
pronunciation of
'law'.
,
Karoly Banicz (a Magyar)
Rich Wales
I haven't heard in other languages an equivalent of the
Hungarian A. In English, the closest approximation I can
think of is in the American pronunciation of 'law'.
The Hungarian short A is also similar to the vowel sound in the southern
Ontario pronunciation of "father" or "hot".
It differs from the vowel sound in "say 'ahhhh'" in that the lips are
very =slightly= pushed forward and rounded in the Hungarian vowel. Fur-
ther, the Hungarian sound is short; Hungarian long A' is a totally dif-
ferent sound.
Jan-Willem
>
>I haven't heard in other languages an equivalent of the Hungarian A. In
>English, the closest approximation I can think of is in the American
>pronunciation of
>'law'.
>
Well, I'm not an expert on sounds, but could it be somewhat like the the
Scandinavian dotted A (you know, an A with a tiny circle above it)?
After what you told, it should almost sound the same.
> ,
>Karoly Banicz (a Magyar)
>
greetings
Jan-Willem
Fred Hamori
just ad an interesting historic footnote. Based on the old Hungarian
script of Asiatic origin. One can see, with a little immagination that
several of the palatalized consonants like G>GY T>TY and N>NY seem to
be derived from a doubling of the primary consonat which gave them their
origin. Hungarian hates consonant clusters and creates from the doubling
of such a non silibant consonant a short semivowel.
The letters :
\|
| =T while TY is like an X with one diagonal having the small
slash on top and bottom like this T symbol was just crossed
to duplicate it.
The G is like an upside down wide V with a slash on the righ leg to the
center of the base. In the GY version one leg becomes vertical then a
copy of it is flipped vertically and horizontally and joined creating a
large vertical staff with two large cross hatches as a result.
/\ | _|
/ /\ G while GY is -+- __|
| = |_ +
-+- |__
| the horizontal members may
be slanted.
The N and NY is with a stretch of the immagination like that,
N is an arch with its end on the left and bowed toward the right.
NY could have been this flipped horizontally and added to the other arc
except that curves are a pain to engrave and had been simplified and the
left arc became more vertical resulting in NY looking like a D.
This alphabet is of Asiatic origins found among Turkic inscriptions and
on the possibly Hun (some say scythic) bowl of the Golden Man of Issik.
Hope this helps.
Fred Hamori
Ruud Harmsen
>I haven't heard in other languages an equivalent of the Hungarian A. In
>English, the closest approximation I can think of is in the American
>pronunciation of
>'law'.
Harlan Messinger
: No, that's not right. "Å" (A-ring) in Swedish is [o:] or [O],
: and thus pronouced the same as "o" and "ó" (o-acute) in Hungarian.
: Many Swedes hear Hungarian short "A" as "Å", though. People with
: the name Nagy are often called "Nådj" [nOdj].
:
: My understanding is that Hungarian short "a" is fairly close to
: [A], and thus the same sound as the long "A" in Swedish. Or the
: "a" in the RP variety of "glass" for that matter. (Although the
: Swedish [A:] is closer, I believe.) Furthermore, this would imply
: that it's fairly close to the short "A" in Dutch, or I am com-
: pletely off track now?
:
I believe you are, because all descriptions I have read of Hungarian "a"
liken it to, for example, a staccato version of "au" in the English word
"taut", and my pronunciation tapes back this up. This would make it
similar to a-ring in Swedish, and _not_ similar to Dutch short "a", which,
in relation to English long "a" as in "father" or to Dutch or Hungarian
long "a", is in the direction of the short "u" in the English word "cup"
(especially the UK rendering of "cup", but also the US rendering), not in
the direction of "aw". (Portuguese short "a" is also similar to Dutch
short "a", at least as I hear them.)
Erland Sommarskog
>In article <DEHn3...@news.cern.ch>, Karoly Banicz <banicz> writes:
>>I haven't heard in other languages an equivalent of the Hungarian A.
>>In English, the closest approximation I can think of is in the
>>American pronunciation of 'law'.
>
>the Scandinavian dotted A (you know, an A with a tiny circle above it)?
>After what you told, it should almost sound the same.
No, that's not right. "Å" (A-ring) in Swedish is [o:] or [O],
and thus pronouced the same as "o" and "ó" (o-acute) in Hungarian.
Many Swedes hear Hungarian short "A" as "Å", though. People with
the name Nagy are often called "Nådj" [nOdj].
My understanding is that Hungarian short "a" is fairly close to
[A], and thus the same sound as the long "A" in Swedish. Or the
"a" in the RP variety of "glass" for that matter. (Although the
Swedish [A:] is closer, I believe.) Furthermore, this would imply
that it's fairly close to the short "A" in Dutch, or I am com-
pletely off track now?
Erland Sommarskog, som...@enea.se, Stockholm
Jan-Willem
[discussion deleted]
>No, that's not right. "Å" (A-ring) in Swedish is [o:] or [O],
>and thus pronouced the same as "o" and "ó" (o-acute) in Hungarian.
>Many Swedes hear Hungarian short "A" as "Å", though. People with
>the name Nagy are often called "Nådj" [nOdj].
>
>My understanding is that Hungarian short "a" is fairly close to
>[A], and thus the same sound as the long "A" in Swedish. Or the
>"a" in the RP variety of "glass" for that matter. (Although the
>Swedish [A:] is closer, I believe.) Furthermore, this would imply
>that it's fairly close to the short "A" in Dutch, or I am com-
>pletely off track now?
>
You're not competely off track, I mean, it is Not close to the A in Standard-
Dutch, but there are a number of regions in the Netherlands where it has got
some hint of O. For example, Rotterdam is usually by the natives called
something like Rotterdom (which is quite funny, as 'dom' means 'stupid')
>
>Erland Sommarskog, som...@enea.se, Stockholm
Jan-Willem
Fred Hamori
file for various languages with a WAV sound file of its pronunciation?
In that way perhaps we could compare easier. Perhaps with an example word
or two for each letter. I could supply the Hungarian alphabet and others
various other languages. Is there anywhere we could store permanent
files, like this and perhaps standard vocabulary like (dictionary files)
for reference?
Fred Hamori
Ruud Harmsen
>You're not competely off track, I mean, it is Not close to the A in Standard-
>Dutch, but there are a number of regions in the Netherlands where it has got
>some hint of O. For example, Rotterdam is usually by the natives called
>something like Rotterdom (which is quite funny, as 'dom' means 'stupid')
distinct. So Rotterdam doesn't sound completely like Rotterdom, it only goes
into that direction. In other words, a is back, short, rounded, and open
(half-open perhaps) and o is half close, rounded, back.
Paulo da Costa
[...] Dutch short "a", which,
>in relation to English long "a" as in "father" or to Dutch or Hungarian
>long "a", is in the direction of the short "u" in the English word "cup"
>(especially the UK rendering of "cup", but also the US rendering), not in
>the direction of "aw". (Portuguese short "a" is also similar to Dutch
>short "a", at least as I hear them.)
Dutch short "a" is "in the direction of aw", especially here in Brabant.
The Dutch hear Portuguese short "a" as short "e" (my name always becomes
"da Coste" if I pronounce it correctly). Hungarian short "a" sounds to me
like the short "a" in Dutch and in some varieties of German and English
(the ones where "my" is pronounced "moy").
--
Paulo M. C(astello) da Costa, /\/\/\ Minha terra tem palmeiras /\/\/\
dac...@natlab.research.philips.com \/\/\/ Onde canta o sabia'... \/\/\/
Philips Research Laboratories, Building WY8.11, /\ Tel: +31 40 2742965 /\
Prof. Holstlaan 4, 5656 AA Eindhoven, The Netherlands \/ FAX: +31 40 2744675 \/