Roots of English language
Anti-imperialist Fighter
>
> "Anti-imperialist Fighter" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote...
> > Linguist speaking: English is a Germanic language. Old English was the
> > product of the languages of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes in northern
> > Germany and southern Denmark and eastern Netherlands. English is
> > *related* to German, and Dutch, and Danish, and Swedish, and especially
> > Frisian (straight up from Old Saxon). Approximately 1/2 of English is
> > French *borrowings* or loan words that went in during the rule of Norman
> > Kings from 1066? to 1500?, during which time tons of French language
> > poured into English, along with lots of Latin loans. The French also
> > brought a lot of good cooking to the Isle, too. ;)
>
> I grew up around Spanish and know quite a bit and took 2 years of German in
> high school. I'll admit that English has some grammatical resemblance to
> German, but overall I think the majority of its vocabulary resembles
> Spanish.
That's the Latin/French you are seeing there. A lot of the
scientific/medical, etc. terms. Actually the roots are about even
between German and French I think, and then some Latin, and then a
spinkling of a ton of other loans too - run "amok" - Tagalog I think.
"imbroglio" - Italian. Coyote, tomato = Aztec. Actually, there are
about a ton of them, esp Greek, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Spanish loans.
But English truly is unique, a language completely unto its own,
> and I think it has the largest vocabulary of any language on earth.
Actually we linguists think it is sort of sinister cuz it is
Microsoft-like in trying to assimilate the world to its Borgness.
I
> just love English's large vocabulary and ability to adopt words from any
> other language and even invent them when necessary.
It's cool, there is usually a word for something. What is weird though
if you study Linguistics is there are some concepts we don't have
English words for.
I enjoy the way
> Spanish sounds, but its vocabulary is much more limited than English - for
> example, AFAIK Spanish has only one word, "mal", to use to describe either
> bad or evil.
I think "evil" is a Spanish word.
German is very hard to pronounce and just sounds sinister.
It's guttural.
> Like Italian, Spanish is very beautiful when sung. I don't know how it
> might sound to non-European ears, but I don't think English sounds a bit
> like German.
None of us has any idea of what our native language sounds like to
another speaker, which is a weird concept right there.
But I do remember hearing Dutch being played on a background
> television set in a movie I saw, and if you're not listening closely it
> does sound quite a bit like English, at least in its rhythm.
As a matter of fact, no other language sounds more like English,
although look at a Bergman movie sometime to see how Swedish sounds = a
lot like English too. Dutch is actually a really beautiful language -
it sounds like German, Italian and French together. I hear it from time
to time.
And for those
> speaking Spanish, they always have a way of making whatever they're saying
> sound like the most important thing in the world, even if they're reciting
> a telephone book.
They are rather emotional people. :) Try a relationship with a Latin
woman sometime. On second thought, maybe not. :)
The most beautiful sexy incredible Spanish I ever heard was Bogotan
Colombian Spanish. It is absolutely out of this world and it is really
divergent. The Spanish of Catalan, Spain is also very odd. Argentina
too. You often don't think they are speaking Spanish! (Due to accent).
--
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Ruud Harmsen
<a...@anti-imperialist.net>: in sci.lang:
> But I do remember hearing Dutch being played on a background
>> television set in a movie I saw, and if you're not listening closely it
>> does sound quite a bit like English, at least in its rhythm.
>
>As a matter of fact, no other language sounds more like English,
>although look at a Bergman movie sometime to see how Swedish sounds = a
>lot like English too. Dutch is actually a really beautiful language -
>it sounds like German, Italian and French together. I hear it from time
>to time.
(I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
Netherlands).
Dutch is half-way between German and English., in some ways. Grammar,
vocabulary, sounds, all of them have traits like German and other like
English.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
Marc Adler
> (I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
> some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
> Netherlands).
The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
language. I think it's one of the coolest-sounding languages on earth,
but until the Dutch see that, their contribution to world art will
continue to be in architecture instead of literature.
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| marc....@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 |
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > (I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
> > some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
> > Netherlands).
>
> The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
> language. I think it's one of the coolest-sounding languages on earth,
> but until the Dutch see that, their contribution to world art will
> continue to be in architecture instead of literature.
You might want to check out painting, too.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Ruud Harmsen
>> (I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
>> some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
>> Netherlands).
Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:27:57 GMT: Marc Adler <marc....@gmail.com>: in
sci.lang:
>The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
>language.
True, the national custom is to pretend not to be nationalistic. Not
only with regard to the language. But in fact we are. We're
crypto-nationalists. And even that is a secret.
The only problem is where the language is concerned I really mean it.
And I have such negative attitudes also to some other languages that
are not my own and will never be in any way. American English is one,
some accents of British English too. Most kinds of British or Scottish
English I do like, soundwise.
To make it more complicated I am somehow fond of some languages the
sound of which I don't particularly like: Dutch and German among them.
And French too.
Harlan Messinger
"Anti-imperialist Fighter" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
news:413ECFDA...@anti-imperialist.net...
> Zim wrote:
> It's cool, there is usually a word for something. What is weird though
> if you study Linguistics is there are some concepts we don't have
> English words for.
If you mean, there are concepts for which we don't have a *single* word, why
is that weird, and why would you think it's a peculiarity of English?
>
> I enjoy the way
> > Spanish sounds, but its vocabulary is much more limited than English -
for
> > example, AFAIK Spanish has only one word, "mal", to use to describe
either
> > bad or evil.
Ridiculous. Anyway, English has only one word in ordinary use, "owl", to
cover those species that French divides into "hibou" and "chouette". You can
find examples like that in both directions for many pairs of languages.
Don't make or believe gross generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.
>
> I think "evil" is a Spanish word.
Incorrect. Old English "yfel".
>
> The most beautiful sexy incredible Spanish I ever heard was Bogotan
> Colombian Spanish. It is absolutely out of this world and it is really
> divergent. The Spanish of Catalan, Spain is also very odd.
"Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which *isn't*
Spanish. The region where it's spoken is Catalonia.
Kåre
<realemail...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:24:42 -0700: Anti-imperialist Fighter
><a...@anti-imperialist.net>: in sci.lang:
>
>> But I do remember hearing Dutch being played on a background
>>> television set in a movie I saw, and if you're not listening closely it
>>> does sound quite a bit like English, at least in its rhythm.
>>
>>As a matter of fact, no other language sounds more like English,
>>although look at a Bergman movie sometime to see how Swedish sounds = a
>>lot like English too. Dutch is actually a really beautiful language -
>>it sounds like German, Italian and French together. I hear it from time
>>to time.
>
>(I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
>some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
>Netherlands).
As a Norwegian, I find Dutch beautiful. Just listen to Liesbeth List
singing, or take a look at the beauty of this line:
De dag gaat open als een gouden roos ...
>Dutch is half-way between German and English., in some ways. Grammar,
>vocabulary, sounds, all of them have traits like German and other like
>English.
Dutch is the foreign language that is closest to Norwegian - apart
from the other Scandinavian languages, of course. It is easy for
Norwegians to learn Dutch, and for the Dutch to learn Norwegian.
Best regards,
Kåre A. Lie
http://www.lienet.no/
Zim
>> I think "evil" is a Spanish word.
>
> Incorrect. Old English "yfel".
I think I recently read about the problems in translating Aramaic, the language
Jebus and his disciples used. It has the same problem I described in Spanish
(if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from "bad"
to "evil." "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself). So the
entire contemporary xian universe of Good and Evil might simply be the result
of poor translation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words. Of course the great
wastage is in the verbs and adjectives, but there are hundreds of nouns
that can be got rid of as well. It isn't only the synonyms; there are
also the antonyms. After all, what justification is there for a word
which is simply the opposite of some other word? A word contains its
opposite in itself. Take 'good,' for instance. If you have a word like
'good,' what need is there for a word like 'bad?' 'Ungood' will do just
as well - better, because it's an exact opposite, which the other is
not. Or again, if you want a stronger version of 'good,' what sense is
there in having a whole string of vague useless words like 'excellent'
and 'splendid' and all the rest of them? 'Plusgood' covers the meaning,
or 'doubleplusgood' if you want something stronger still. Of course we
use those forms already. But in the final version of Newspeak there'll
be nothing else. In the end the whole notion of goodness and badness
will be covered by only six words - in reality, only one word. Don't
you see the beauty of that, Winston? It was B.B.'s idea originally, of
course,' he added as an afterthought."
-- George Orwell, "1984"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Dy
"Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:N8B%c.40997$aB1....@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > (I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
> > some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
> > Netherlands).
>
Maybe not beautiful, but it's the most adorable language I know. A language
where candy is "snoepje" is just too lovable in my book. Also love
"waarschuwing voor de scheepvaart," but in the Netherlands variety, which I
think is much nicer than the Belgian version. (Hmmm, but I also seem to
recall you prefering European Portuguese to Brazilian, which boogles my
mind. I think European Portuguese is one of the ugliest languages I've ever
heard.)
> The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
> language. I think it's one of the coolest-sounding languages on earth,
> but until the Dutch see that, their contribution to world art will
> continue to be in architecture instead of literature.
Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch. I was to go to an event where
both Hugo Claus and Lucebert would read from their works, but days earlier,
Lucebert got into a car crash, which he later died from. But it was nice to
hear Claus.
Peter
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Zim wrote:
> > I think I recently read about the problems in translating Aramaic, the
> > language Jebus and his disciples used.
Disciples of Jebus would be Jebusites:-)
> > It has the same problem I described in Spanish
> > (if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from
> > "bad" to "evil."
>
> No, I just found "malvado" which is equivalent to English "evil".
What does vado mean?
> "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
> > translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself).
>
> Spanish = "podrido" = bad as in rotten.
The English cognate seems to be "putrid".
> Spanish is not so limited.
How would one translate to Spanish:
"The contingency, while remote, is nevertheless a possibility"?
M. Ranjit Mathews
>
> Dutch is the foreign language that is closest to Norwegian - apart
> from the other Scandinavian languages, of course. It is easy for
> Norwegians to learn Dutch, and for the Dutch to learn Norwegian.
Of the Scandinavian languages, Nynorsk is supposedly the most similar
to Dutch. What did you mean by "Norwegian"?
Marc Adler
> What does vado mean?
'I go'
>> "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
>>
>>>translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself).
>>
>>Spanish = "podrido" = bad as in rotten.
>
>
> The English cognate seems to be "putrid".
But 'podrirse' has quotidian currency in Spanish, unlike 'putrify' in
English. The moral is: just because words share roots doesn't mean the
leaves all fall in autumn.
> How would one translate to Spanish:
> "The contingency, while remote, is nevertheless a possibility"?
"Pues evidentemente estáis hace ya mucho familiarizados con lo que
queréis decir propiamente cuando usáis la expresión ‘ente’, mientras que
nosotros creíamos antes comprenderla, mas ahora nos encontramos perplejos."
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> > Zim wrote:
>
> > > I think I recently read about the problems in translating Aramaic, the
> > > language Jebus and his disciples used.
>
> Disciples of Jebus would be Jebusites:-)
>
> > > It has the same problem I described in Spanish
> > > (if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from
> > > "bad" to "evil."
> >
> > No, I just found "malvado" which is equivalent to English "evil".
>
> What does vado mean?
Dunno, need a good Spanish dictionary for that one. I suspect it may be
cognate with English "malevolent". You may be interested that English
"evil" is related to Sanskrit "Upanishads" and "opal". Bizarre, huh?
You're Indian right?
>
> > "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
> > > translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself).
> >
> > Spanish = "podrido" = bad as in rotten.
>
> The English cognate seems to be "putrid". Think so.....Related words "foul" "filth" "defile" "fog" "fuzzy" "potpourri" "pus". Language is fun huh?
>
> > Spanish is not so limited.
>
> How would one translate to Spanish:
> "The contingency, while remote, is nevertheless a possibility"?
My Spanish is bad. "La contingenicia sin embargo es un posibilidad
remota". It doesn't really translate directly. "The contingency
nevertheless is a remote possibility" is the only way it comes out.
Marc Adler
> Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch.
I'm talking Shakespeare Camõens Balzac Cervantes Goethe Handke
Kierkegaard Ibsen Strindberg Petrarca ... famous.
Peter Dy
> Peter Dy wrote:
>
> > Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch.
>
> I'm talking Shakespeare Camõens Balzac Cervantes Goethe Handke
> Kierkegaard Ibsen Strindberg Petrarca ... famous.
Huh? Dude, that's a really mixed up list. Handke is hardly as famous as
Shakespeare, Balzac, Cervantes, Goethe, Kierkegaard, Ibsen, Strindberg or
Petrarch. Who do you think you are kidding? And who the heck is Camoens?
Multatuli, Couperus, Nooteboom, and Mulisch are all very famous
Dutch-language authors. But I could really care less if they were perhaps
less famous than some of the authors you mention--how many Chinese authors
would you consider to be "famous" in the West? Does that mean they are
lesser authors? No.
Peter
--
Heilige Leute, sagt man, sie wollten besonders dem Sünder
Und der Sünderin wohl. Geht's mir doch eben auch so.
--Goethe, Epigramme 72.
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> > Zim wrote:
>
> > > It has the same problem I described in Spanish
> > > (if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from
> > > "bad" to "evil."
> >
> > No, I just found "malvado" which is equivalent to English "evil".
>
> What does vado mean?
Looks like it means English "willed" or thereabouts. Like English
"ill-willed" "having a bad/evil will/disposition" etc.
Spanish "mal" relates to English "dismal" "grand mal seizures" "malady"
"malaria" "malice" "malign".
Spanish "vado" apparently relates to English "will" = "wealth" "well"
"William" "gallop" "gallant" "gala" "wallop" "volition" "voluntary"
"voluptuous". :)
Language is a blast, huh? :D
I Am What I Am
> Peter Dy wrote:
>
> > Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch.
>
Sorry, who is Camoens, Handke, Strindberg? What is so famous about these freaks?
Marc Adler
> Huh? Dude, that's a really mixed up list.
It's geographic, starting in the west. I think.
> Handke is hardly as famous as
> Shakespeare, Balzac, Cervantes, Goethe, Kierkegaard, Ibsen, Strindberg or
> Petrarch. Who do you think you are kidding?
You.
> And who the heck is Camoens?
Oh boy. Someone is bound to take care of that question, so I'll leave it
to them. Handke isn't famous, though. Handke was a stretch, I'll give
you that, but I couldn't think of any famous Austrian architects, and I
hated to see my architecture vs. literature balance topple.
> Multatuli, Couperus, Nooteboom, and Mulisch are all very famous
> Dutch-language authors.
That's practically the definition of an oxymoron.
> But I could really care less if they were perhaps
> less famous than some of the authors you mention
Well, at least we agree on that point.
> --how many Chinese authors
> would you consider to be "famous" in the West?
Seven.
> Does that mean they are
> lesser authors? No.
... and yes. You see how that works? I make a statement without any
particular profundity, and you ascribe to it all sorts of meaning.
You're responding to your own personal eschatological exegesis of my
post, and not to what I said. I said the Dutch haven't contributed major
names to world literature. I didn't say their writers were shit. There's
a world of difference, you know.
Peter Dy
> Peter Dy wrote:
>
> > Huh? Dude, that's a really mixed up list.
>
> It's geographic, starting in the west. I think.
>
> > Handke is hardly as famous as
> > Shakespeare, Balzac, Cervantes, Goethe, Kierkegaard, Ibsen, Strindberg
or
> > Petrarch. Who do you think you are kidding?
>
> You.
Lol. You probably are the type that thinks the bible is the most famous
book in the world, right? The earth's a lot larger than that, amigo.
> > And who the heck is Camoens?
>
> Oh boy. Someone is bound to take care of that question, so I'll leave it
> to them. Handke isn't famous, though. Handke was a stretch, I'll give
> you that, but I couldn't think of any famous Austrian architects, and I
> hated to see my architecture vs. literature balance topple.
Neither Handke nor your Camoens belongs in the list you gave.
> > Multatuli, Couperus, Nooteboom, and Mulisch are all very famous
> > Dutch-language authors.
>
> That's practically the definition of an oxymoron.
>
> > But I could really care less if they were perhaps
> > less famous than some of the authors you mention
>
> Well, at least we agree on that point.
You agree? But you were placing value on famousness.
> > --how many Chinese authors
> > would you consider to be "famous" in the West?
>
> Seven.
>
> > Does that mean they are
> > lesser authors? No.
>
> ... and yes. You see how that works? I make a statement without any
> particular profundity
Well said.
Kåre
Mathews) wrote:
I meant Bokmål, which is the most similar to Dutch. Nynorsk is less
similar.
anonymous
<news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net>:
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
>
> > "Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which
> > *isn't* Spanish.
>
> This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> have an MA in Linguistics, so there is no need to tell me that Catalan
> is a separate language from Spanish. :)
(follow-up 2 sci.lang)
Your MA obviously doesn't dissuade you from insisting on the not so
univocal terminology that you're using. So there's no need to brag about
your academic knowledge. Bragging has never been a display of authority,
or even of captivating personality. IMHO, academic titles should be a call
for a little bit of modesty.
Let's get things straight. Even though Catalan is a Romance language
spoken in Spain, it's not Spanish, it's not even 'Catalonian Spanish',
it's just 'Catalan'. And it's the native language of over 6 million people
in NE Spain and Andorra (having official status in both) and SW France,
with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of it, thus making it
the largest minority language in Europe. Can we finally come to terms on
this?
--
Polar
anonymous
<news:v860k01vpr6109fb3...@4ax.com>:
(follow-up 2 sci.lang)
I'd have to agree. Bokmål is arguably the easiest of the Scandinavian
languages to learn for a native speaker of Dutch.
--
Polar
anonymous
<news:wAR%c.17770$kx2....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>:
> "Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:N8B%c.40997$aB1....@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> > The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
> > language. I think it's one of the coolest-sounding languages on earth,
> > but until the Dutch see that, their contribution to world art will
> > continue to be in architecture instead of literature.
>
> Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch. I was to go to an event
> where both Hugo Claus and Lucebert would read from their works, but
> days earlier, Lucebert got into a car crash, which he later died from.
> But it was nice to hear Claus.
Albeit that Claus is not a Dutchman, but a Belgian. Where and when was
this event you were talking about?
--
Polar
Igor Sklar
> Anti-imperialist Fighter wrote:
>
> >>Spanish sounds, but its vocabulary is much more limited than English - for
> >>example, AFAIK Spanish has only one word, "mal", to use to describe either
> >>bad or evil.
> >
>
> maligno, malvado, nocivo, pérfido, perverso, ruin, vil... and lots more.
I suspect that 'ruin' or 'vil' isn't quite the same as 'malo', is it?
In Russian, we have half a dozen general words for bad which are quite
synonymous (plokhoi, durnoi, skvernyi, nekhoroshii, dryannoi,
negodnyi) and innumerable words with adjacent meanings 'evil',
'repulsive', 'abominable', &c (protivnyi, merzkii, otvratitelnyi, zloi
- I could go on for pages).
> Curiously, to both Spanish and Italian speakers, English feels like
> having a fairly limited vocabulary and expresivity.
I know that the Spanish will always defend their language. But to talk
about "fairly limited vocabulary" of English... I don't know. They say
that English has more words (or lemmas) than any other language.
My French teacher used to refer to Spanish disparagingly. He told us
that it's the poorest of Romance languages, and that the Spanish talk
much to say little. He also told us that it's hard to deal with
Spanish businessmen, because they have little use for precise terms.
For instance, when they say "the contract will be signed tomorrow" it
may also stand for "the contract may be signed sometime later".
I don't want to offend anyone. That's what I was told. But I have no
idea if this is correct. No flames please.
regards
Anti-imperialist
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Anti-imperialist wrote:
> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >
> >>Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> >>
> >>>Zim wrote:
> >>
> >>>> It has the same problem I described in Spanish
> >>>>(if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from
> >>>>"bad" to "evil."
> >>>
> >>>No, I just found "malvado" which is equivalent to English "evil".
> >>
> >>What does vado mean?
> >>
>
> But, as you ask: "vado", "path", derives from latin "vadus".
He who walks the "bad path". He who is on a "bad path"? Something like
that?
Anti-imperialist
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Anti-imperialist wrote:
>
> >>"The contingency, while remote, is nevertheless a possibility"?
> >> >
> > My Spanish is bad.
>
> that sentence accurately without some assistance.
>
> > "La contingenicia sin embargo es un posibilidad
> > remota".
>
> you (correctly) said here, has a quite different shade of meaning.
Ok.......
>
> > It doesn't really translate directly.
>
> It doesn't??? Why not???
I am guessing. I couldn't make it work directly, due to my poor
Spanish.
And how would you know, if, by your own
> admission, your Spanish is "bad"???
Based on my Spanish, I could not translate it directly. :)
>
> > "The contingency
> > nevertheless is a remote possibility" is the only way it comes out.
>
> No. How about "la contingencia, aunque remota, es sin embargo posible"?
Ah, I thought about using aunque, but I did not think I could use
"aunque remota" as a phrase. I only found "posibiliad remota" in my
dictionary, so that was the one I picked.
>
> Or: "Aunque el riesgo de que tal situación se de es mínimo, no debe sin
> embargo descartarse". Hum, quite a bit longer, but more natural sounding
> to my native "ear". There are many ways to express the same meaning
> anyway.
>
> (I strongly suspect that the original subject of this thread had nothing
> to do with the Spanish language before it was crossposted to sci.lang).
It actually started as a discussion about the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict, with a lot of asides into native-settler, native-invader
conflicts through history, onto "what is a native?" "What is an
invader?" "Who owns what land?" "Does the colonizer own the land or the
native?" then from there onto Britain during the Norman invasion, when
Britain was invaded by France. One poster did not believe France
invaded Britain, so as proof response came back about all the French in
English, another poster did not belive English was 1/2 French, then on
to borrowings vs. genetic roots, then on to roots of English language.
I don't know how it got to Spanish, do you? LOL.
Then I crossposted to sci.lang cuz the thread was off an a language
discussion.
Usenet is fun huh? LOL.
Richard Herring
<polarDONT_NE...@edpnet.be> writes
I have no MA in Linguistics, but I suspect that what he really meant by
>The Spanish of Catalan, Spain
was "what happens when Catalans try to speak Castilian".
--
Richard Herring
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> in
> <news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net>:
>
> > Harlan Messinger wrote:
> >
> > > "Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which
> > > *isn't* Spanish.
> >
> > This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> > have an MA in Linguistics, so there is no need to tell me that Catalan
> > is a separate language from Spanish. :)
>
> (follow-up 2 sci.lang)
>
> Your MA obviously doesn't dissuade you from insisting on the not so
> univocal terminology that you're using.
There must be a Catalonian dialect of Spanish.
So there's no need to brag about
> your academic knowledge. Bragging has never been a display of authority,
> or even of captivating personality. IMHO, academic titles should be a call
> for a little bit of modesty.
Right, but with that degree, surely I ought to know what Catalan is!
And I do. Which is why the pedantry annoyed me. I felt talked down
to.
>
> Let's get things straight. Even though Catalan is a Romance language
> spoken in Spain, it's not Spanish,
Of course not. I always thought of it as French-Spanish mix, sort of.
That's what it looks like on paper anyway, having browsed some books in
*Catalan*. Obviously, it has it's own unique Romance roots other than
"French-Spanish mix". That's just the impression it gives off on the
page and to the ear.
> it's not even 'Catalonian Spanish',
Indeed, however, I heard some Catalan women at the local coffee shop
speaking some weird language. I asked them where they were from. They
said Spain, Catalunya. Then I asked them if they were speaking Catalan
or Spanish. Spanish, they were. And you know, that was one of the
*weirdest* Spanishes I have ever heard in my life. I could barely even
understand it or even recognize it as Spanish. There must be some
distinct Spanish dialect down there, *in addition to the Catalan
language*.
> it's just 'Catalan'.
Yes we know.
And it's the native language of over 6 million people
> in NE Spain and Andorra (having official status in both) and SW France,
That many.....
> with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of it, thus making it
> the largest minority language in Europe.
Wow, impressive, largest minority lang.
Can we finally come to terms on
> this?
There is nothing to come to terms with. You are talking to the wall. I
referred to the Spanish dialect spoken in Catalunya, not Catalan.
Anti-imperialist
>
> >>>>>No, I just found "malvado" which is equivalent to English "evil".
> >>>>
> >>>>What does vado mean?
> >>>>
> >>
> >>"Malvado" derives from vulgar latin "malifatius".
> >>
> >>But, as you ask: "vado", "path", derives from latin "vadus".
> >> >
> > He who walks the "bad path". He who is on a "bad path"? Something like
> > that?
>
>
English cognate = "malefactor"?
anonymous
<news:41403EC8...@anti-imperialist.net>:
> There must be a Catalonian dialect of Spanish.
> ...
(removed crosspost 2 talk.politics.mideast)
Just a quick question: what use is it, in spite of my earlier follow-up to
sci.lang solely, to crosspost this to talk.politics.mideast, in which
Catalan, Spanish, or even the roots of the English language aren't of the
slightest consequence?
--
Polar
Peter T. Daniels
If that's where the two people talking at each other are, that's where
they post. They crossposted in order to get valid information. They
won't see your note.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Arpad
> anonymous wrote...
> >with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of it, thus making it
> >the largest minority language in Europe.
>
> Wow, impressive, largest minority lang.
I believe that the largest minority lang in Europe is Russian.
Arpad
Arpad
> But for us it is the language of the "supreme literature" (as it is
> commonly believed among us to be unsurpassed).
You must be crazy. The *only* great Spanish-language writer was
Borges, and he was sure that Spanish wasn't suitable for writing great
poetry:
"Oui, la langue espagnole est tres lourde. Si vous dites 'tristement',
'gaiment', vous en avez le triste et le gai, ou en anglais si vous
dites 'slowly', 'quickly', vous entendez slow et quick ; mais si en
espagnol vous dites 'lentamente', 'rapidemente', vous n'entendez plus
que "mente", qui est la partie mecanique du mot."
And to quote from his ENglish interview:
"I do think that Spanish literature began by being very fine. And then
somewhere, and already with such writers as Quevedo and Gongora, you
feel something has stiffened; the language doesn't flow as it did..."
A very apt description. Arpad
Arpad
> > the largest minority language in Europe.
>
> Wow, impressive, largest minority lang.
I think the largest minority language in Europe is Russian.
Arpad
anonymous
<news:b062caa9.0409...@posting.google.com>:
Any (official) figures on this?
(follow-up 2 sci.lang)
--
Polar
Harlan Messinger
"Anti-imperialist" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net...
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
> >
> > "Anti-imperialist Fighter" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
> > news:413ECFDA...@anti-imperialist.net...
> > > Zim wrote:
> > > It's cool, there is usually a word for something. What is weird
though
> > > if you study Linguistics is there are some concepts we don't have
> > > English words for.
> >
> > If you mean, there are concepts for which we don't have a *single* word,
why
> > is that weird,
>
> Because we have so many words, we English-speakers think we have a word
> for everything.
>
> and why would you think it's a peculiarity of English?
>
> Of course it is not.>
>
> > > I think "evil" is a Spanish word.
> >
> > Incorrect. Old English "yfel".
>
> I was wrong. There is malvado, though.
> > >
> > > The most beautiful sexy incredible Spanish I ever heard was Bogotan
> > > Colombian Spanish. It is absolutely out of this world and it is
really
> > > divergent. The Spanish of Catalan, Spain is also very odd.
> >
> > "Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which
*isn't*
> > Spanish.
>
> This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> have an MA in Linguistics, so there is no need to tell me that Catalan
> is a separate language from Spanish. :)
>
>
> Right, I mixed the two.
>
> Are you done with your pedantry for today, professor?
If by pedantry you mean "correcting someone who tried to make a point by
saying something so untrue that it wouldn't be remotely obvious that he had
a graduate degree in the subject", then guilty as charged.
Stefano MacGregor
> It's cool, there is usually a word for something. What is weird though
> if you study Linguistics is there are some concepts we don't have
> English words for.
Yes, but we could do without most of the words in the language. I
mean, do we really =need= a specific word for a rock sitting across
the tops of two other rocks? Or for a piece of broken pottery with
the word "yes" or "no" scratched on it, to be used for voting whether
a particular person should be banished from society for a time?
--
Stefano
http://steve-and-pattie.com/esperantujo/vocab.html#comp
Anti-imperialist
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Anti-imperialist wrote:
>
> > speaking some weird language. I asked them where they were from. They
> > said Spain, Catalunya. Then I asked them if they were speaking Catalan
> > or Spanish. Spanish, they were. And you know, that was one of the
> > *weirdest* Spanishes I have ever heard in my life. I could barely even
> > understand it or even recognize it as Spanish. There must be some
> > distinct Spanish dialect down there, *in addition to the Catalan
> > language*.
>
> Catalonia has its own accent, like any other part of Spain. And some
> people, those whose first language and everyday language is Catalan,
> have a "thicker" accent.
Maybe I was hearing that.....it sure was odd though, nothing like any
Castilian Spanish I have ever heard.
>
> Anyway, I never in my life thought of that accent as weird. It sounds
> like perfectly normal Castilian to me - Catalan accented, but just
> plain Spanish.
>
> Are you familiarised with the Spanish of Spain or that of Latin America?
Absolutely! I live in a tourist town in California and we get visitors
from all over the world. Plus, I had 4 years of Spanish in high school,
1 1/2 years in college, we hosted a bunch of Spanish kids on some
student home visit thing one year.......sure I am familiar with
Castilian Spanish. Not to mention, to some extent, the Spanish of Latin
America (though here we are mostly exposed to Mexican Spanish, and that
is not Castilian at all). However, I was hanging around with a woman
from Bogota a while back, and she had a full-on Castilian (but also
extremely variant) Spanish. Also, Chilean Spanish sounds somewhat
Castilian. And I have spoken Spanish with Ecuadorian (no Castilian to
hear) and Peruvian (interesting accent, but not Castilian), Venezuelan
(odd but not Castilian really). And then I had an Argentine girlfriend
for some months (and that is totally bizarre Spanish). But yes,
recently we had some Spaniards come in from Galicia.
So sure, I know the Castilian accent for sure, but this Catalan accent
was so divergent and strange I could not even tell it was Spanish. I
concluded they must speak some odd Spanish in Catalonia.
> I suspect most Spanish accents (with the possible exception of that of
> the Canary Islands and perhaps Western Andalusia) will sound weird,
Not to me really, though Bogotan Colombian Spanish is totally out of
this world. Got to be the sexiest Spanish out there too. And all the
Latin American Spanishes each sound a bit different, which is kind of
interesting.
or
> at least unfamiliar, to ears accostumed to Latin American Spanish
Well Mexican Spanish sounds nothing the Spanish from Spain.
> (which, to us, often sounds very UN-Spanish!).
If you heard Bogotan Colombian Spanish (especially whatever lect the
upper class speak) you would be right at home, I assure you. Extremely
Castilian, European flavor, very sensual, you can almost hear French in
it.
Jim Tyson
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> in
> <news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net>:
>
> > Harlan Messinger wrote:
> >
> > > *isn't* Spanish.
> >
> > This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> > have an MA in Linguistics,
*snigger* a whole MA? I tremble to speak in your presence.
> > so there is no need to tell me that Catalan
> > is a separate language from Spanish. :)
>
> (follow-up 2 sci.lang)
>
> Your MA obviously doesn't dissuade you from insisting on the not so
> univocal terminology that you're using. So there's no need to brag about
> your academic knowledge. Bragging has never been a display of authority,
> or even of captivating personality. IMHO, academic titles should be a call
> for a little bit of modesty.
>
> Let's get things straight. Even though Catalan is a Romance language
> spoken in Spain, it's not Spanish, it's not even 'Catalonian Spanish',
> it's just 'Catalan'. And it's the native language of over 6 million people
> in NE Spain and Andorra (having official status in both) and SW France,
> with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of it, thus making it
> the largest minority language in Europe. Can we finally come to terms on
> this?
Before it becomes set in stone as reported in sci.lang can we please
all remember to include Algher in Sardinia as Catalanophone.
Anti-imperialist
My nomination for one of the weirdest semantic distinctions I have come
across came from a California Indian language I was working with:
shipish = the feeling you get when you run through the tall grass and
get the sticky stuff (pollen) all over you.
I guess it must have been a common occurrence or they would not have
bothered to slice that semantic hair!
anonymous
<news:d6305c73.04090...@posting.google.com>:
> "anonymous" <polarDONT_NE...@edpnet.be> wrote in message
> news:<2qaldjF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> > Let's get things straight. Even though Catalan is a Romance language
> > spoken in Spain, it's not Spanish, it's not even 'Catalonian Spanish',
> > it's just 'Catalan'. And it's the native language of over 6 million
> > people in NE Spain and Andorra (having official status in both) and
> > SW France, with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of
> > it, thus making it the largest minority language in Europe. Can we
> > finally come to terms on this?
>
> Before it becomes set in stone as reported in sci.lang can we please
> all remember to include Algher in Sardinia as Catalanophone.
Officially, true. In practice, however, Algher Catalan and Catalan
Catalan (as in: spoken in Andorra, SW France, Catalunya, Valencia, the
Baleares) are mutually unintelligible. But your addition was rightly made.
Lynn Henderson
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
>
>>Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
>>
>>>Zim wrote:
>>
>>>> It has the same problem I described in Spanish
>>>>(if I was right), only a single word to describe the entire range from
>>>>"bad" to "evil."
>>>
>>
>>What does vado mean?
>
>
> "ill-willed" "having a bad/evil will/disposition" etc.
>
> Spanish "mal" relates to English "dismal" "grand mal seizures" "malady"
> "malaria" "malice" "malign".
>
> Spanish "vado" apparently relates to English "will" = "wealth" "well"
> "William" "gallop" "gallant" "gala" "wallop" "volition" "voluntary"
> "voluptuous". :)
>
> Language is a blast, huh? :D
According to Diccionario Anaya:
malvado, -a
I. Del lat. vulg. malifatius < malus = malo + fatum = destino.
1. (adjetivo, -a, femenino, sustantivo masculino). Perverso, vil.
Peter Dy
> Peter Dy <pet...@sbcglobal.net> in
> <news:wAR%c.17770$kx2....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>:
>
> > "Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:N8B%c.40997$aB1....@twister.socal.rr.com...
> >
> > > The mark of a true Dutchman is having a complex about his native
> > > language. I think it's one of the coolest-sounding languages on earth,
> > > but until the Dutch see that, their contribution to world art will
> > > continue to be in architecture instead of literature.
> >
> > Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch. I was to go to an event
> > where both Hugo Claus and Lucebert would read from their works, but
> > days earlier, Lucebert got into a car crash, which he later died from.
> > But it was nice to hear Claus.
>
> Albeit that Claus is not a Dutchman, but a Belgian.
Yeah, I know. That part of my post was just an aside.
Where and when was
> this event you were talking about?
In Münster, Germany, on October 17, 1993. The readings were part of a
two-week exhibition of their books and Lucebert drawings; there were also a
couple of lectures on their work.
Peter
Marc Adler
> Lol. You probably are the type that thinks the bible is the most famous
> book in the world, right?
It isn't? Is there a single book better known to more people than the bible?
(Pssst. The correct answer is 'the phone book' - that one gets them
every time!)
> The earth's a lot larger than that, amigo.
I don't know... I've seen some pretty big phone books.
> Neither Handke nor your Camoens belongs in the list you gave.
Hey, I didn't know either of them was Dutch. Or are you trying to change
the topic?
> You agree? But you were placing value on famousness.
No I wasn't. Obviously you've never heard of Camoens, and there's
probably people out there who've never heard of Goethe. I'm talking
about belonging to 'the canon,' not being famous. There's a difference.
> Well said.
Well worth the wait.
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| marc....@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 |
Marc Adler
> True, the national custom is to pretend not to be nationalistic. Not
> only with regard to the language. But in fact we are. We're
> crypto-nationalists. And even that is a secret.
Shhhhh!
Marc Adler
> Sorry, who is Camoens, Handke, Strindberg? What is so famous about these freaks?
Camoens, Handke, Stringberg is line-backers for Washington Red Skins.
These freaks is famous cuz they mega-ripped, comprende?
Peter Dy
> Peter Dy wrote:
>
> > Lol. You probably are the type that thinks the bible is the most famous
> > book in the world, right?
>
> It isn't? Is there a single book better known to more people than the
bible?
>
> (Pssst. The correct answer is 'the phone book' - that one gets them
> every time!)
>
> > The earth's a lot larger than that, amigo.
>
> I don't know... I've seen some pretty big phone books.
>
> > Neither Handke nor your Camoens belongs in the list you gave.
>
> Hey, I didn't know either of them was Dutch. Or are you trying to change
> the topic?
Uh, I really don't see what the topic is here. You seem to be simply
chattering or trolling, can't tell.
> > You agree? But you were placing value on famousness.
>
> No I wasn't.
Let's see. You questioned the Dutch contribution to world literature. Why?
Because there's no one as famous as those you listed.
Obviously you've never heard of Camoens, and there's
> probably people out there who've never heard of Goethe. I'm talking
> about belonging to 'the canon,' not being famous. There's a difference.
Well, I don't judge contributions to literature based on whether or not they
belong to the "canon."
Peter
Marc Adler
> Uh, I really don't see what the topic is here. You seem to be simply
> chattering or trolling, can't tell.
You overreacted to a simple tongue-in-cheek comment (that as soon as the
Dutch get over their complex about their native language they'll start
producing world-class literature - note the architecture-to-literature
ratio I included in the original post for the intended tongue-in-cheek
tone) by listing a bunch of authors that are very good but aren't /that/
good. Then you didn't respond in kind to my humorous inclusion of Handke
in the list, and really surprised me by never having heard of Camoens.
And then you tried to change the topic (the bible and the size of the
earth) and the language ('amigo'), and now you accuse me of trolling.
Who was it that said that usenet is a strange place?
> Let's see. You questioned the Dutch contribution to world literature. Why?
> Because there's no one as famous as those you listed.
The canon is a fuzzy concept anyway, and one that I don't really place
much stock in, and whose value I don't intend to argue. I'll swat at it
a bit, but don't expect a serious argument out of me about it.
> Well, I don't judge contributions to literature based on whether or not they
> belong to the "canon."
Well, you can't judge contemporary literature by membership in the
canon, certainly, since one of the criteria is withstanding the test of
time.
Peter Dy
> Peter Dy wrote:
>
> > Uh, I really don't see what the topic is here. You seem to be simply
> > chattering or trolling, can't tell.
>
> You overreacted to a simple tongue-in-cheek comment (that as soon as the
> Dutch get over their complex about their native language they'll start
> producing world-class literature - note the architecture-to-literature
> ratio I included in the original post for the intended tongue-in-cheek
> tone) by listing a bunch of authors that are very good but aren't /that/
> good.
I wrote:
> Nooteboom is pretty famous, as is Mulisch.
I don't see how that is an overreaction, and I still don't see that you have
much of a topic going here, so, adieu.
Peter
Marc Adler
> I don't see how that is an overreaction,
'Who do you think you are kidding?' 'I could care less if they were...'
'Does that mean they are lesser authors? No.'
Etc. Those are all symptoms of an overreaction. Especially the koan-like
answering of your own question at the end.
> and I still don't see that you have
> much of a topic going here, so, adieu.
You could've at least added 'amigo' after 'adieu'! The wasted comedic
potential!
Wugi
Kåre :
> >
> >> But I do remember hearing Dutch being played on a background
> >>> television set in a movie I saw, and if you're not listening closely
it
> >>> does sound quite a bit like English, at least in its rhythm.
As Dutch has more flection, I would expect that where E. would give sth.
like
popom popom popom pom pom popom, D. would be rather like
popom popopom popopom pom popom popopom :-)
Besides, E. stress is a strong rhythm marker.
D. stands between such strong stressing and the steady stream of, say,
French "ilnemel'apasdit".
> >>As a matter of fact, no other language sounds more like English,
> >>although look at a Bergman movie sometime to see how Swedish sounds = a
> >>lot like English too.
Yes, and at times a lot like West-Flemish too. But then, East-Flemish sounds
a lot like English as well.
> >>Dutch is actually a really beautiful language -
> >>it sounds like German, Italian and French together. I hear it from time
> >>to time.
It shares vowels like uu (ü) and eu (ö) with F. and G., diphthongs like
ij/ei (eille) and ui (euille) with F., pure basic long vowels with I. but
short vowels rather with E., consonant clusters with G... Aai and Ooi sound
(to me:) nicer than eye and -oy.
> >(I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
> >some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
> >Netherlands).
I think it can be beautiful when spoken with care, which only few people do.
Otherwise it can be a pain in the ear.
It comes in two main varieties:
- the Dutch one with a rather unimitable accent twitch, and which I take it
attracts quite a few foreigners (there have been threads about it as I
recall) and, BTW, also myself;
- the Flemish (Belgian) one which to me sounds more phonetic (the
Italian-Spanish-Greek basic vowel sounds) , so less "remarkable" :-)
But then again, if you want exotic or really weird sounds, go into Flemish
dialects: an incredible number and variety for such a small territory.
And, while talking 'Belgian', not only Flemish: French-speaking Wallonia
enjoys also (albeit disappearing) dialectical riches with Latino-Celtic
based Walloon. A Walloon dialect had the honour for being chosen as the
Extraterrestrial Lingo of some SF-movie, I forget which, and I dunno what
salty jokes were registered to give conversational body but they sounded
like having fun :-)
> As a Norwegian, I find Dutch beautiful. Just listen to Liesbeth List
> singing, or take a look at the beauty of this line:
>
> De dag gaat open als een gouden roos ...
Medieval D. was colourful too (from memory):
Alle dinghe syn my te inghe: ic ben soe wyt
(all things are 'me' too narrow: I am so wide...)
> >Dutch is half-way between German and English., in some ways. Grammar,
> >vocabulary, sounds, all of them have traits like German and other like
> >English.
When browsing in my pocket English etymological dico, it's weird how many
Middle-English words were written exactly (or almost) like present-day
Dutch!
(at least some relation with OP :)
> Dutch is the foreign language that is closest to Norwegian - apart
> from the other Scandinavian languages, of course. It is easy for
> Norwegians to learn Dutch, and for the Dutch to learn Norwegian.
For word-order, I find Scandinavian languages (well, Swedish;) steering
in-between English and Dutch/German. I suppose English took word order
(besides words) largely from Scandinavian (and French)?
(ditto as for OP :)
Anti-imperialist
>
> (reacting to various posters)
>
> Kåre :
> > >
> > >> But I do remember hearing Dutch being played on a background
> > >>> television set in a movie I saw, and if you're not listening closely
> it
> > >>> does sound quite a bit like English, at least in its rhythm.
>
> As Dutch has more flection, I would expect that where E. would give sth.
> like
> popom popom popom pom pom popom, D. would be rather like
> popom popopom popopom pom popom popopom :-)
> Besides, E. stress is a strong rhythm marker.
> D. stands between such strong stressing and the steady stream of, say,
> French "ilnemel'apasdit".
I have no idea what English what English sounds like to a non-native,
but I must say, Dutch is beautiful. I have the attitude (a bit) of
German being "guttural", ugly-sounding etc. (though it's not true if you
spend a lot of time around it) so I expected Dutch to be another harsh
guttural tongue. But to me, it sounds like Spanish, French, German and
especially Italian (rhythm?) but you know it's not really any of those.
>
> > >>As a matter of fact, no other language sounds more like English,
> > >>although look at a Bergman movie sometime to see how Swedish sounds = a
> > >>lot like English too.
>
> Yes, and at times a lot like West-Flemish too. But then, East-Flemish sounds
> a lot like English as well.
I was just at a US national park that gets visitors from the world
over. And I heard this language - beautiful - wonderful.......German
but so much prettier....I asked them if they were speaking German, not
really thinking they were. The 2 women said No, Dutch. Then they said
they spoke Flemish. I don't know which Flemish it was, but boy it sure
was a nice tongue!
>
> > >>Dutch is actually a really beautiful language -
> > >>it sounds like German, Italian and French together. I hear it from time
> > >>to time.
>
> It shares vowels like uu (ü) and eu (ö) with F. and G., diphthongs like
> ij/ei (eille) and ui (euille) with F.,
That's what I am hearing. :)
pure basic long vowels with I.
Ahh of course.
but
> short vowels rather with E., consonant clusters with G... Aai and Ooi sound
> (to me:) nicer than eye and -oy.
More melodic?
>
> > >(I don't think it's beautiful, although it's my own. Well, yes, in
> > >some varieties spoken in Belgium it's beautiful, but not in the
> > >Netherlands).
>
> I think it can be beautiful when spoken with care, which only few people do.
> Otherwise it can be a pain in the ear.
> It comes in two main varieties:
> - the Dutch one with a rather unimitable accent twitch, and which I take it
> attracts quite a few foreigners (there have been threads about it as I
> recall) and, BTW, also myself;
> - the Flemish (Belgian) one which to me sounds more phonetic (the
> Italian-Spanish-Greek basic vowel sounds) , so less "remarkable" :-)
> But then again, if you want exotic or really weird sounds, go into Flemish
> dialects: an incredible number and variety for such a small territory.
Is that so. Fascinating.
> And, while talking 'Belgian', not only Flemish: French-speaking Wallonia
> enjoys also (albeit disappearing) dialectical riches with Latino-Celtic
> based Walloon.
Ahhhhhh. Do the Walloons still lord it over the poor Flemish?
A Walloon dialect had the honour for being chosen as the
> Extraterrestrial Lingo of some SF-movie, I forget which, and I dunno what
> salty jokes were registered to give conversational body but they sounded
> like having fun :-)
>
> > As a Norwegian, I find Dutch beautiful. Just listen to Liesbeth List
> > singing, or take a look at the beauty of this line:
> >
> > De dag gaat open als een gouden roos ...
>
> Medieval D. was colourful too (from memory):
> Alle dinghe syn my te inghe: ic ben soe wyt
> (all things are 'me' too narrow: I am so wide...)
>
> > >Dutch is half-way between German and English., in some ways. Grammar,
> > >vocabulary, sounds, all of them have traits like German and other like
> > >English.
>
> When browsing in my pocket English etymological dico, it's weird how many
> Middle-English words were written exactly (or almost) like present-day
> Dutch!
> (at least some relation with OP :)
>
> > Dutch is the foreign language that is closest to Norwegian - apart
> > from the other Scandinavian languages, of course. It is easy for
> > Norwegians to learn Dutch, and for the Dutch to learn Norwegian.
>
> For word-order, I find Scandinavian languages (well, Swedish;) steering
> in-between English and Dutch/German. I suppose English took word order
> (besides words) largely from Scandinavian (and French)?
> (ditto as for OP :)
I know this sounds weird but I heard Norwegian spoken a while ago (I
live near that park that gets all the foreigners) and that was a really
cool language! These 2 young joker guys were speaking it and it was all
long o like ow - ooooooooooooooooooooow, and then these long u like uw -
uwwwwwwwwwwwww. So the conversation had all those fantastic vowels
going that were like way too long - owwwwwww uwwwwwww owwwwwwwww
uwwwwwww. And it had the effect of the language going up and down like
they were playing games with it. It sounded funny but not dorky. Never
heard anything like it.
On the same trip where I heard Flemish I heard (Copenhagen) Danish.
That language sounded really odd. I thought it was German but it was
really different, it was like whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh whosh
whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh. Nothing like Dutch or German or Norwegian
or Swedish or English. Danish was a sound all by its own. It was fast
too.
Kåre
<a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote:
>I know this sounds weird but I heard Norwegian spoken a while ago (I
>live near that park that gets all the foreigners) and that was a really
>cool language! These 2 young joker guys were speaking it and it was all
>long o like ow - ooooooooooooooooooooow, and then these long u like uw -
>uwwwwwwwwwwwww. So the conversation had all those fantastic vowels
>going that were like way too long - owwwwwww uwwwwwww owwwwwwwww
>uwwwwwww. And it had the effect of the language going up and down like
>they were playing games with it. It sounded funny but not dorky. Never
>heard anything like it.
Norwegian is a tonal language. Officially it has two tones, but these
two tones vary with the dialects, so if you hear people with different
dialects talking together, you may hear several different tones in
spoken Norwegian.
Best regards
Kåre A. Lie
http://www.lienet.no/
Peter T. Daniels
> I have no idea what English what English sounds like to a non-native,
> but I must say, Dutch is beautiful. I have the attitude (a bit) of
> German being "guttural", ugly-sounding etc. (though it's not true if you
> spend a lot of time around it) so I expected Dutch to be another harsh
> guttural tongue.
Dutch has a voiced velar fricative, German doesn't, so if "sounding
guttural" meant anything at all, it would apply more to Dutch than to
German.
alexV
"Anti-imperialist" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
news:41410AED...@anti-imperialist.net...
> The ultimate analysis of the Iraqi resistance; lists and analyzes 100
> (!) Iraqi insurgent groups:
> http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/inn-statements/
What an admirable piece of crap! Just read!
"Hopefully, this stirs some important discussion. Lastly, I think
Al-Moharer.net, who are doing original revolutionarly work by defending
President Saddam Hussein, should be thanked for the countless hours they
have spent so they can turn out articles and archive things of historical
value. For example this issue and the last, both contained speaches by
President Hussein on the role of women."
Some of the women he was talking about could not hear what he said since
they were lying in Iraqi mass graves. Just a small incongruence of Communist
ideology and real life.
> The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
> http://www.pflp.net/
The latest link commemorates a gallery of homicide murderers who have killed
countless women and children on public transportation in Israel.
Anti-Imperialists are truly concerned with the welfare of women and
children!
anonymous
<news:B7adnSAVNIA...@comcast.com>:
And how relevant this is to sci.lang! In so many ways too! Thanks a
bunch!
(follow-up 2 talk.politics.mideast)
--
Polar
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Anti-imperialist" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
> news:41410AED...@anti-imperialist.net...
> > The ultimate analysis of the Iraqi resistance; lists and analyzes 100
>
> > (!) Iraqi insurgent groups:
> > http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/inn-statements/
>
> What an admirable piece of crap! Just read!
>
> "Hopefully, this stirs some important discussion. Lastly, I think
> Al-Moharer.net, who are doing original revolutionarly work by defending
> President Saddam Hussein, should be thanked for the countless hours they
> have spent so they can turn out articles and archive things of historical
> value. For example this issue and the last, both contained speaches by
> President Hussein on the role of women."
>
> Some of the women he was talking about could not hear what he said since
> they were lying in Iraqi mass graves. Just a small incongruence of Communist
> ideology and real life.
What does Saddam Hussein have to do with communism, and why are you
posting your crap to sci.lang?
Jim Tyson
> anonymous wrote:
> >
> > Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> in
> > <news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net>:
> >
> > > Harlan Messinger wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which
> > > > *isn't* Spanish.
> > >
> > > This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> > > is a separate language from Spanish. :)
> >
> > (follow-up 2 sci.lang)
> >
[snipped for brevity]
> > Your MA obviously doesn't dissuade you from insisting on the not so
> > univocal terminology that you're using.
>
> There must be a Catalonian dialect of Spanish.
Why? What does this mean - is it analogous to something like
"Norwegian dialects of Russian" or those varieties of Swedish we call
"Finland Svenska"? Those are territorial determinations meaning "the
dialects of X spoken in Y". There is no "Catalonian Spanish" in the
Roussillon, or in Sardinia and in the Catalan region of Spain there
are several candidate interpretations: the Spanish spoken as a second
language by Catalanofons, the Spanish spoken by native Castilian
speakers in the Catalan region wherever they originate, and the
Castilian indigenous to the Catalan region of Spain. And the
exsitence of any one of these is not necessary but contingent.
> > Let's get things straight. Even though Catalan is a Romance language
> > spoken in Spain, it's not Spanish,
>
> Of course not. I always thought of it as French-Spanish mix, sort of.
> That's what it looks like on paper anyway, having browsed some books in
> *Catalan*. Obviously, it has it's own unique Romance roots other than
> "French-Spanish mix". That's just the impression it gives off on the
> page and to the ear.
>
> > it's not even 'Catalonian Spanish',
>
> Indeed, however, I heard some Catalan women at the local coffee shop
> speaking some weird language. I asked them where they were from. They
> said Spain, Catalunya. Then I asked them if they were speaking Catalan
> or Spanish. Spanish, they were. And you know, that was one of the
> *weirdest* Spanishes I have ever heard in my life. I could barely even
> understand it or even recognize it as Spanish. There must be some
> distinct Spanish dialect down there, *in addition to the Catalan
> language*.
There are some distinct dialects of Spanish all over Spain (and the
rest of the Hispanofone world). If you are talking about second
language speakers though that wouldn't be a matter of dialect would
it, but rather of interlanguage and Catalan-Castilian interlanguage
isn't particularly difficult in my experience - the biggest hurdle is
reduction of vowels but it's not that hard to understand. If you're
talking about varieties of Spanish indigenous to the Catalan region
then you have a rare treat coming when you hear Adalucian - the
constant aspiracion and elision make it much harder to understand in
my experience. The Spanish spoken in Catalunya by native Castilian
speakers is pretty close to the standard. Do you think you might have
mistaken these women's second language Spanish for dialect? You
should ponder that one.
>
> > it's just 'Catalan'.
>
> Yes we know.
>
> And it's the native language of over 6 million people
> > in NE Spain and Andorra (having official status in both) and SW France,
>
> That many.....
>
> > with another 4 to 5 million having passive knowledge of it, thus making it
> > the largest minority language in Europe.
>
> Wow, impressive, largest minority lang.
>
> Can we finally come to terms on
> > this?
>
> There is nothing to come to terms with. You are talking to the wall. I
> referred to the Spanish dialect spoken in Catalunya, not Catalan.
The phrase "the Spanish dialect spoken in Catalunya" is no more
sensible than "Catalonian Spanish": there is no single such dialect
and Catalunya includes parts of countries where no Spanish dialect is
indigenous at all: France and Italy and - arguably - Andorra.
Jim
Aki Moilanen
> Why? What does this mean - is it analogous to something like
> "Norwegian dialects of Russian" or those varieties of Swedish we call
> "Finland Svenska"?
"finlandssvenska"
--
Aki Moilanen
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Anti-imperialist wrote:
> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >>
> >>What does vado mean?
>
> According to Diccionario Anaya:
> malvado, -a
> I. Del lat. vulg. malifatius < malus = malo + fatum = destino.
> 1. (adjetivo, -a, femenino, sustantivo masculino). Perverso, vil.
Not cognate with malefic (evil-doing), then.
I Am What I Am
> But I could really care less if they were perhaps
> less famous than some of the authors you mention--how many Chinese authors
> would you consider to be "famous" in the West? Does that mean they are
> lesser authors? No.
The correct answer is Yes, and you know it.
neoholistic
>
> I think I recently read about the problems in translating Aramaic, the
> language
> Jebus and his disciples used. It has the same problem I described in
> Spanish
> (if I was right),
No, you weren't. Not even close.
> only a single word to describe the entire range from
> "bad"
> to "evil." "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
> translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself).
Bullshit. Refrain from speaking about languages you don't know shit
about.
Malo/a/os/as: adjective. Synonims: dañino, depravado, maléfico,
malicioso, maligno, malvado, nocivo, pérfido, perverso, ruin, vil... and
lots more.
Mal: noun or adverb.
As an adverb: "badly" or "wrongly". Lots of "dedicated" words for either
concept (the most common for "wrongly" would be "erróneamente").
Then there's the system of suffixes, which carry a semantic load...
As a noun, "evil" or "disgrace". For the latter, there exist, among many
others, the following synonims: calamidad, dolencia, padecimiento,
desgracia, infortunio... only a sample from, as I said, many others.
(You may be interested to know that to both Spanish and Italian
speakers, English often feels like having a fairly limited vocabulary
and expresivity. My guess: poor general knowledge of the language.
Sounds familar?).
--
Please keep the 'x-no-archive: yes' header.
To reach me by email: transform my account name like IBM -> HAL.
Anti-imperialist
>
> Zim wrote:
>
> >
> > I think I recently read about the problems in translating Aramaic, the
> > language
> > Jebus and his disciples used. It has the same problem I described in
> > Spanish
> > (if I was right),
>
> No, you weren't. Not even close.
>
> > only a single word to describe the entire range from
> > "bad"
> > to "evil." "The apple has gone bad" (it is rotten) might wind up being
> > translated as "Apples are evil" (as in the work of the devil himself).
>
> Bullshit. Refrain from speaking about languages you don't know shit
> about.
Now now be nice.
>
> Malo/a/os/as: adjective. Synonims: dañino, depravado, maléfico,
> malicioso, maligno, malvado, nocivo, pérfido, perverso, ruin, vil... and
> lots more.
Wow, cool, I need a better Spanish dictionary!
>
> Mal: noun or adverb.
>
> As an adverb: "badly" or "wrongly". Lots of "dedicated" words for either
> concept (the most common for "wrongly" would be "erróneamente").
>
> Then there's the system of suffixes, which carry a semantic load...
>
> As a noun, "evil" or "disgrace". For the latter, there exist, among many
> others, the following synonims: calamidad, dolencia, padecimiento,
> desgracia, infortunio... only a sample from, as I said, many others.
Wow, impressive....
>
> (You may be interested to know that to both Spanish and Italian
> speakers, English often feels like having a fairly limited vocabulary
> and expresivity. My guess: poor general knowledge of the language.
> Sounds familar?).
Interesting concept. I suppose that may be a universalism?
--
The ultimate analysis of the Iraqi resistance; lists and analyzes 100
(!) Iraqi insurgent groups:
http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/inn-statements/
The Jewish People's Liberation Organization (JPLO)
http://tinyurl.com/2jkeo
neoholistic
> Wow, impressive....
Well, the whole point was "there are more than one word for bad", and
I think it got through...
>
>>(You may be interested to know that to both Spanish and Italian
>>speakers, English often feels like having a fairly limited vocabulary
>>and expresivity. My guess: poor general knowledge of the language.
>>Sounds familar?).
>
>
> Interesting concept. I suppose that may be a universalism?
No idea. Maybe some sort of "linguistic patriotism"? Or perhaps just
plain old ignorance of languages other than your own native one(s).
In either case it could very well be a common occurrence.
Rolleston
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>What does Saddam Hussein have to do with communism, and why are you
>posting your crap to sci.lang?
A psychological experiment?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3667E72A.FAC51F50%40msn.com
R.
Anti-imperialist
>
> "Anti-imperialist" <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message
> news:41410AED...@anti-imperialist.net...
> > The ultimate analysis of the Iraqi resistance; lists and analyzes 100
>
> > (!) Iraqi insurgent groups:
> > http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/inn-statements/
>
> What an admirable piece of crap! Just read!
TY. Actually, the author was commended on his work by some of the top
US experts on the Iraqi insurgency at US war colleges. But
whatever.....
>
> "Hopefully, this stirs some important discussion.
I think so.......it is most detailed analysis of the resistance I have
yet seen. If anything, the US military ought to download it.
Lastly, I think
> Al-Moharer.net, who are doing original revolutionarly work by defending
> President Saddam Hussein, should be thanked for the countless hours they
> have spent so they can turn out articles and archive things of historical
> value. For example this issue and the last, both contained speaches by
> President Hussein on the role of women."
Al-Moharer is nothing other than the Iraqi Baath Party, in case you are
wondering. Saddam Hussein was far far better for women than the way it
is now, but he did move them backwards from the previous.
>
> Some of the women he was talking about could not hear what he said since
> they were lying in Iraqi mass graves. Just a small incongruence of Communist
> ideology
Hussein was not a Communist.
and real life.
>
> > The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
> > http://www.pflp.net/
>
> The latest link commemorates a gallery of homicide murderers who have killed
> countless women and children on public transportation in Israel.
PFLP have not detonated any suicide bombs on buses that I am aware of.
Lately, they just attack Israeli soldiers. They did a martyrdom
operation in December, but the target was a bus stop outside an Army
base in "Israel".
> Anti-Imperialists are truly concerned with the welfare of women and
> children!
Well, for the record, I don't agree with attacks on "Israeli" citizens
inside the Zionist entity. I make an exception for adult settlers in
the Territories though, they could kill them all for all I care! The
rationale of the anti-imperialists who support human bombs inside the
Zionist entity is that all citizens of the entity are invaders, and as
such, imperialists. Maybe they are, but I can't handle targeting
civilians. For the record, in settler-native conflicts, natives tend to
target invader settlers. See the US Indian Wars.
I have even had anti-imperialists tell me that the Palestinian conflict
is the top anti-imperialist conflict in the world today.
--
The ultimate analysis of the Iraqi resistance; lists and analyzes 100
(!) Iraqi insurgent groups:
http://www.iraq-news-net.de/?/news/inn-statements/
The Jewish People's Liberation Organization (JPLO)
http://tinyurl.com/2jkeo
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message news:<41403EC8...@anti-imperialist.net>...
> > anonymous wrote:
> > >
> > > Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> in
> > > <news:413F852F...@anti-imperialist.net>:
> > >
> > > > Harlan Messinger wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Catalan" isn't a place in Spain, it's the name of a language, which
> > > > > *isn't* Spanish.
> > > >
> > > > This would be Catalonian Spanish, which hardly sounds like Spanish. I
> > > > have an MA in Linguistics, so there is no need to tell me that Catalan
> > > > is a separate language from Spanish. :)
> > >
> > > (follow-up 2 sci.lang)
> > >>
> [snipped for brevity]
>
> > > Your MA obviously doesn't dissuade you from insisting on the not so
> > > univocal terminology that you're using.
> >
> > There must be a Catalonian dialect of Spanish.
>
> Why?
Obviously, there is no a priori reason for there to be one, except that
the Catalonian Castilian I heard seemed to me to be incredibly
divergent, so I assume it must be a lect.
What does this mean - is it analogous to something like
> "Norwegian dialects of Russian"
That makes no sense. Catalonia is a part of Spain, so it makes sense to
discuss whether Catalonian Castilian is a dialect of Castilian.
or those varieties of Swedish we call
> "Finland Svenska"?
If you mean the Swedish spoken on those islands west of Finland, yes.
Otherwise, no. Your analogy is hopelessly mangled as Catalonia is not a
sovereign state, and Castilian is not a foreign language in Catalonia,
in spite of the nationalist line!
Those are territorial determinations meaning "the
> dialects of X spoken in Y". There is no "Catalonian Spanish" in the
> Roussillon,
What's that?
or in Sardinia and in the Catalan region of Spain there
> are several candidate interpretations: the Spanish spoken as a second
> language by Catalanofons,
Most Catalan speakers probably just grow up bilingual, though I am
guessing.
the Spanish spoken by native Castilian
> speakers in the Catalan region wherever they originate,
That makes no sense.
and the
> Castilian indigenous to the Catalan region of Spain.
Probably it would be the third.
And the
> exsitence of any one of these is not necessary but contingent.
>
> > Indeed, however, I heard some Catalan women at the local coffee shop
> > speaking some weird language. I asked them where they were from. They
> > said Spain, Catalunya. Then I asked them if they were speaking Catalan
> > or Spanish. Spanish, they were. And you know, that was one of the
> > *weirdest* Spanishes I have ever heard in my life. I could barely even
> > understand it or even recognize it as Spanish. There must be some
> > distinct Spanish dialect down there, *in addition to the Catalan
> > language*.
>
> There are some distinct dialects of Spanish all over Spain (and the
> rest of the Hispanofone world).
No doubt.
If you are talking about second
> language speakers though that wouldn't be a matter of dialect would
> it, but rather of interlanguage
I suppose, but aren't most Catalans just bilingual from a young age?
and Catalan-Castilian interlanguage
> isn't particularly difficult in my experience - the biggest hurdle is
> reduction of vowels but it's not that hard to understand.
Catalonian Spanish exists, the guy below got a PhD describing it:
"In my doctoral dissertation (1996), I analyzed several linguistic
attributes of Catalonian Spanish based on interview data.1"
If you're
> talking about varieties of Spanish indigenous to the Catalan region
> then you have a rare treat coming when you hear Adalucian - the
> constant aspiracion and elision make it much harder to understand in
> my experience. The Spanish spoken in Catalunya by native Castilian
> speakers is pretty close to the standard.
Really?????? From the link below:
"The prolonged contact with Catalan has influenced the Spanish of this
region greatly, and most Spaniards recognize Catalonian Spanish
instantly." Most Spaniards notice it, but you can't? Maybe you pipe
down on this subject a bit, prof?
"Nevertheless, for largely political and ideological reasons having to
do with the Francoist dictatorship of the mid 20th century, this
publicly well-recognized dialect of Spanish has been all but ignored in
academic research on Spanish dialectology. Thus, Catalonian Spanish
remains largely overlooked in linguistic treatises, unrecognized as a
legitimate dialect of Spanish, and uninvestigated from a social
perspective (Vann, 2002)."
There are political reasons for failing to recognize this lect....
"Since Spain's transition from Francoism to democracy a quarter century
ago, scholars have begun to take some interest in the Spanish spoken in
Catalonia (cf. e.g. Badia i Margarit, 1980; Marsá, 1986; and Casanovas,
1996)."
Already 3 linguists wrote papers on this nonexistent lect! Amazing!
"This monograph will address significant voids in Spanish dialectology.
Moreover, it will provide a foundation for research on this dialect that
can subsequently be pursued by me and others, and this resulting
research will provide new perspectives on Spanish language and culture.
First, it addresses a significant problem in the traditional literature
of Spanish dialectology (cf., e.g. Zamora Vicente, 1989), which is the
lack of professional recognition of dialects of Spanish spoken in
contact with (and influenced by) Catalan. Even sociolinguistic
investigations that have specifically addressed Spanish in contact with
Catalan in Catalonia have not recognized Catalonian Spanish as a
distinct dialect of Spanish (cf. e.g. Badia i Margarit, 1980).
Therefore, the idea of recognizing this contact variety as a legitimate
Spanish dialect is a novel concept in the field."
So the dialect exists, but it is just unrecognized! The plot
deepens....
Do you think you might have
> mistaken these women's second language Spanish for dialect?
No, in fact Spaniards recognize this lect, and see it as an "Ebonics"
type degeneration:
"Many monolingual Spaniards view Catalonian Spanish as "bad" or "broken"
Spanish and hold low opinions of people who speak this dialect."
You
> should ponder that one.
Maybe........
> > There is nothing to come to terms with. You are talking to the wall. I
> > referred to the Spanish dialect spoken in Catalunya, not Catalan.
>
> The phrase "the Spanish dialect spoken in Catalunya" is no more
> sensible than "Catalonian Spanish":
there is no single such dialect
You would be wrong! Apparently........
http://www.emeld.org/workshop/2003/Vann_presentation.doc
"This paper describes the practices chosen to digitize and transcribe
analog cassette recordings in an ongoing project to document the variety
of Spanish spoken in Catalonia, Spain. The variety of Spanish spoken in
Catalonia (henceforth ?Catalonian Spanish?) has not been documented
previously with textual representations of spontaneous speech such as
published transcripts or digital audio recordings. After a brief
historical background on the dialect itself."
> and Catalunya includes parts of countries where no Spanish dialect is
> indigenous at all: France and Italy and - arguably - Andorra.
Well, shall we narrow it to Spanish Catalunya then?
M. Ranjit Mathews
> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> >>
> >>Spanish = "podrido" = bad as in rotten.
> >
> > The English cognate seems to be "putrid".
>
> But 'podrirse' has quotidian currency in Spanish, unlike 'putrify' in
> English. The moral is: just because words share roots doesn't mean the
> leaves all fall in autumn.
Yes; for example, comida is very common in Spanish whereas its English
cognate comestible is very rarely used.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > You may be interested that English
> "evil" is related to Sanskrit "Upanishads" and "opal".
I can't seem to find an "opal".
> Bizarre, huh?
Relation to "Upanishad" seems bizarre. <upa> doesn't mean evil.
Would you find it bizarre that Malayalam <tApanila> means, and is
cognate with, English temperature?
Sanskrit <tApas> = heat; cognate with "temper"
Tamil <nila> = level
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
>
> > > You may be interested that English
> > "evil" is related to Sanskrit "Upanishads" and "opal".
>
> I can't seem to find an "opal".
English "opal" is from Sanskrit "upala" (precious) stone. From
IndoEuropean (IE) "upo" - under, up from under, over -> "upelo" ->
Germanic "upilaz" - over the proper limits -> Old English "yfel" = evil.
IE "upo" under, up from under, over -> Sanskrit "upo" - near to (strange
semantic change) -> Sanskrit "upala" (precious) stone -> English "opal"
>
> > Bizarre, huh?
>
> Relation to "Upanishad" seems bizarre. <upa> doesn't mean evil.
IE "upo" under, up from under, over -> Sanskrit "upo" - near to (strange
semantic change) -> Sanskrit "Upanisad" - sitting down near to. "upa" =
near to + "ni" = down + "sad" = sit. "Ni" and "sad" are IE roots too.
"Ni" -> English "beneath" "underneath" "nether". "Sed" -> sit, sitz,
saddle, seat, soil, session, sewer, siege, chair, ephedrine, sedan,
sedate, hostage, settle, ersatz, obsess, dissident, sediment,
Sanhedrin. :D
> Would you find it bizarre that Malayalam <tApanila> means, and is
> cognate with, English temperature?
>
> Sanskrit <tApas> = heat; cognate with "temper"
> Tamil <nila> = level
This is probably a Tamil borrowing from Sanskrit "tapas" but you never
know, maybe you found another Nostratic root eh?
It couldn't be cognate unless you want to go into Greenberg's
Nostratic? Are you talking Nostratic here? Because Dravidian is not
formally recognized as related to IndoEuropean (IE).
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >
> > Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> >
> > > > You may be interested that English
> > > "evil" is related to Sanskrit "Upanishads" and "opal".
> >
> > I can't seem to find an "opal".
>
> English "opal" is from Sanskrit "upala" (precious) stone.
It had seemed like you were saying English evil has a Sanskrit cognate opal.
> > Relation to "Upanishad" seems bizarre. <upa> doesn't mean evil.
> IE "upo" under, up from under, over -> Sanskrit "upo" - near to (strange
> semantic change) -> Sanskrit "Upanisad" - sitting down near to. "upa" =
> near to + "ni" = down + "sad" = sit. "Ni" and "sad" are IE roots too.
> > Would you find it bizarre that Malayalam <tApanila> means, and is
> > cognate with, English temperature?
> >
> > Sanskrit <tApas> = heat; cognate with "temper"
> > Tamil <nila> = level
>
> This is probably a Tamil borrowing from Sanskrit "tapas"?
Only if you call Malayalam Tamil.
> It couldn't be cognate unless you want to go into Greenberg's
> Nostratic? Are you talking Nostratic here? Because Dravidian
> is not formally recognized as related to IndoEuropean (IE).
tapas is not of Dravidian provenance; it is from Sanskrit.
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote in message news:<4146A369...@anti-imperialist.net>...
> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> > >
> > > Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> > >
> > > > > You may be interested that English
> > > > "evil" is related to Sanskrit "Upanishads" and "opal".
> > >
> > > I can't seem to find an "opal".
> >
> > English "opal" is from Sanskrit "upala" (precious) stone.
>
> It had seemed like you were saying English evil has a Sanskrit cognate opal.
Okey.....
>
> > > Relation to "Upanishad" seems bizarre. <upa> doesn't mean evil.
> > IE "upo" under, up from under, over -> Sanskrit "upo" - near to (strange
> > semantic change) -> Sanskrit "Upanisad" - sitting down near to. "upa" =
> > near to + "ni" = down + "sad" = sit. "Ni" and "sad" are IE roots too.
>
> > > Would you find it bizarre that Malayalam <tApanila> means, and is
> > > cognate with, English temperature?
> > >
> > > Sanskrit <tApas> = heat; cognate with "temper"
> > > Tamil <nila> = level
> >
> > This is probably a Tamil borrowing from Sanskrit "tapas"?
>
> Only if you call Malayalam Tamil.
Okey, it's Dravidian. :D
>
> > It couldn't be cognate unless you want to go into Greenberg's
> > Nostratic? Are you talking Nostratic here? Because Dravidian
> > is not formally recognized as related to IndoEuropean (IE).
>
> tapas is not of Dravidian provenance; it is from Sanskrit.
Right, but Malayalam "tapanila" is apparently in part a Sanskrit
borrowing, right? So it can't be cognate unless you want to get into
Nostraticisms.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >
> > tapas is not of Dravidian provenance; it is from Sanskrit.
>
> Right, but Malayalam "tapanila" is apparently in part a Sanskrit
> borrowing, right?
What about it? Upto 80% of the Malayalam lexicon might be in part
Sanskrit borrowings.
> So it can't be cognate unless you want to get into
> Nostraticisms.
Can putrid in English not be cognate with podrido in Spanish unless
you get into PIEisms?
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> > >
> > > tapas is not of Dravidian provenance; it is from Sanskrit.
> >
> > Right, but Malayalam "tapanila" is apparently in part a Sanskrit
> > borrowing, right?
>
> What about it?
Now, now, be nice. :)
Upto 80% of the Malayalam lexicon might be in part
> Sanskrit borrowings.
Ahh ok, however, you said Malayalam "tapanila" was "cognate" with
"temperature". Not really. We only use the verb cognate to refer to
genetic relationships usually, not to borrowings.
>
> > So it can't be cognate unless you want to get into
> > Nostraticisms.
>
> Can putrid in English not be cognate with podrido in Spanish unless
> you get into PIEisms?
Yes, surely. You have to show that the 2 words have some sort of a
genetic relationship to each other, not a borrowing relationship. The
genetic relationship need not delve all the way back to PIE. I don't
even know the genesis of "putrid". From "putridus" Latin. Yes it
appears to be cognate. They both go back to IE "pu" - to rot.
In response to your question, genetic relationships between Spanish and
English words are not a problem. Genetics between English and Malayalam
are controversial indeed!
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Upto 80% of the Malayalam lexicon might be in part
> > Sanskrit borrowings.
>
> Ahh ok, however, you said Malayalam "tapanila" was "cognate" with
> "temperature". Not really. We only use the verb cognate to refer to
> genetic relationships usually,
... then, you're on sound ground because there is a genetic
relationship between tapa and temper.
> not to borrowings.
tapa is not borrowed from temper.
If Sanskrit tapas is related to temper, Malayalam tapa is equally
related to temper. To consider another example, German Frühstück and
Malayalam <prAtal> (both meaning breakfast) are related because German
Früh, Sanskrit <prAta> and English proto, all meaning early, are
related via PIE.
> > > So it can't be cognate unless you want to get into
> > > Nostraticisms.
> >
> > Can putrid in English not be cognate with podrido in Spanish unless
> > you get into PIEisms?
>
> Yes, surely. You have to show that the 2 words have some sort of a
> genetic relationship to each other, not a borrowing relationship.
Ah, by that yardstick, Malayalam <kARu> is not cognate with English
"car" because it's borrowed from "car". Conversely, tapa is not
borrowed from English temper and therefore has a genetic rather than a
borrowing relationship with temper.
> The
> genetic relationship need not delve all the way back to PIE.
Then, why the need to go back to Nostratic?
Anti-imperialist
>
> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
>
> > Upto 80% of the Malayalam lexicon might be in part
> > > Sanskrit borrowings.
> >
> > Ahh ok, however, you said Malayalam "tapanila" was "cognate" with
> > "temperature". Not really. We only use the verb cognate to refer to
> > genetic relationships usually,
>
> ... then, you're on sound ground because there is a genetic
> relationship between tapa and temper.
Right but the genetics is only between Sanskrit tapa and English
temper. I have not yet looked up the word so I don't know more about
it. There would be no genetic relationship between tapanila and
temperature because tapanila is in part a Sanskrit borrowing. The
relationship is based on a borrowing, not genetics.
>
> > not to borrowings.
>
> tapa is not borrowed from temper.
I know. But tapanila is borrowed from tapa in part, so the fact that
tapanila is borrowed negates genetics.
>
> If Sanskrit tapas is related to temper,
Genetically.
Malayalam tapa is equally
> related to temper.
Sure, but only via borrowing, so it's not "cognate", ISTR. Been out of
school a few years, sorry. :D
To consider another example, German Frühstück and
> Malayalam <prAtal> (both meaning breakfast) are related
Well maybe they are related in a borrowing sense but probably not
genetic.
because German
> Früh, Sanskrit <prAta> and English proto, all meaning early, are
> related via PIE.
Ok, but it's not genetic and we usually don't say cognate unless we talk
genetics, I think.....Maybe someone else can weigh in....
>
> > > > So it can't be cognate unless you want to get into
> > > > Nostraticisms.
> > >
> > > Can putrid in English not be cognate with podrido in Spanish unless
> > > you get into PIEisms?
> >
> > Yes, surely. You have to show that the 2 words have some sort of a
> > genetic relationship to each other, not a borrowing relationship.
>
> Ah, by that yardstick, Malayalam <kARu> is not cognate with English
> "car" because it's borrowed from "car".
Correct, nor are the Sanskrit borrowings into Malayalam cognate either.
Conversely, tapa is not
> borrowed from English temper and therefore has a genetic rather than a
> borrowing relationship with temper.
Right, they both go back to PIE, I guess. I have to look it up.
>
> > The
> > genetic relationship need not delve all the way back to PIE.
>
> Then, why the need to go back to Nostratic?
I thought you were trying to show genetics between Malayalam and English
- direct, not via Sanskrit or other borrowings. In that case, indeed
you off into the realm of Nostratic. Now I happen to believe in
Nostratic, but I bet a lot of guys on s.l. will flame the hell out of
it.
Nostratic:
PIE "pol" - half, side - is considered by some to be related to
Proto-Dravidian "pal" - part, portion. The root is also found in Tamil,
Malayalam, Kannada, Tulu, Telugu, Parji. The PIE root "pol" is also
found in Sanskrit "ka-palam" - half. The relationship between Sk
"ka-palam" and Malayalam "pal" - part - is NOT borrowing. It is either
coincidence or evidence of genetic relationship between Dravidian and
PIE.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Right but the genetics is only between Sanskrit tapa and English
> temper. I have not yet looked up the word so I don't know more about
> it. There would be no genetic relationship between tapanila and
> temperature because tapanila is in part a Sanskrit borrowing. The
> relationship is based on a borrowing, not genetics.
In Sanskrit, "of heat" (adj) is <tApasya> [tAp@sj@]; in Malayalam,
it's [tAp@]. <tApanila> means level (i.e., degree) of heat. BTW, Hindi
<garam> is cognate with Esperanto verma and presumably with both
English warm and English thermal.
> I thought you were trying to show genetics between Malayalam and English
> - direct, not via Sanskrit or other borrowings.
genetic relationship between a word and another word. A root in a word
doesn't cease to be related to one in another word merely because it
is borrowed.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > Malayalam <prAtal> (both meaning breakfast) are related
>
> Well maybe they are related in a borrowing sense but probably not
> genetic.
>
> > related via PIE.
>
> Ok, but it's not genetic
It is genetic. <prAta> and Früh have the same PIE origin.
> and we usually don't say cognate unless we talk
> genetics, I think.
Cognates are words of different languages that have a common etymology
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/cognate
<prAtal> and Frühstück have the same meaning and are cognates because
they have a common etymology.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Now I happen to believe in
> Nostratic, but I bet a lot of guys on s.l. will flame the hell out of
> it.
>
> Nostratic:
>
> PIE "pol" - half, side - is considered by some to be related to
> Proto-Dravidian "pal" - part, portion. The root is also found in Tamil,
> Malayalam, Kannada, Tulu, Telugu, Parji. The PIE root "pol" is also
> found in Sanskrit "ka-palam" - half. The relationship between Sk
> "ka-palam" and Malayalam "pal" - part - is NOT borrowing. It is either
> coincidence or evidence of genetic relationship between Dravidian and
> PIE.
Would this, too, be "either coincidence or genetic"?
Latin mulg-e:re 'to milk'
Saami mielga 'breast'
Hungarian mell 'breast'
Tamil mulai 'breast'
Malayalam mulai 'breast'
Anti-imperialist
Okey, but have you ever taken a Linguistics course? In my Historical
Linguistics grad level course, we only used cognates to mean direct
genetic relationship. Otherwise we say borrowing.
How do you know so much about Linguistics anyway? You really know a
lot.
Anti-imperialist
Yeh, that is the one of the other ones. To me, it is clearly evidence
of genetic relationship. But the skeptics really hate that kind of
talk.
Rex F. May
a...@anti-imperialist.net wrote on 9/16/04 6:11 PM:
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
>>
>> Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net> wrote ...
>>
>>> Now I happen to believe in
>>> Nostratic, but I bet a lot of guys on s.l. will flame the hell out of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Nostratic:
>>>
>>> PIE "pol" - half, side - is considered by some to be related to
>>> Proto-Dravidian "pal" - part, portion. The root is also found in Tamil,
>>> Malayalam, Kannada, Tulu, Telugu, Parji. The PIE root "pol" is also
>>> found in Sanskrit "ka-palam" - half. The relationship between Sk
>>> "ka-palam" and Malayalam "pal" - part - is NOT borrowing. It is either
>>> coincidence or evidence of genetic relationship between Dravidian and
>>> PIE.
>>
>> Would this, too, be "either coincidence or genetic"?
>> Latin mulg-e:re 'to milk'
>> Saami mielga 'breast'
>> Hungarian mell 'breast'
>> Tamil mulai 'breast'
>> Malayalam mulai 'breast'
>
> Yeh, that is the one of the other ones. To me, it is clearly evidence
> of genetic relationship. But the skeptics really hate that kind of
> talk.
Hm. I'm agnostic about the whole thing, but how many such examples are
there out there, and could they be explained by borrowing?