When was Latin Languages supplanted from Dalmatia/Yugoslavia area?
Stem sells
Bosnia&Herz'a, etc. Eventually, these lands spoke a Latin-based
language.
Here are my questions:
1. As the natives adopted the Latin based language, did they loose
track of their Illyrian language?
2. Were they monolingual in this language?
3. When/How did they become Slavicized/Albanized?
phog...@abo.fi
> The Romans conquered the area of modern-day Serbia/Montenegro/
> Bosnia&Herz'a, etc. Eventually, these lands spoke a Latin-based
> language.
>
> Here are my questions:
> 1. As the natives adopted the Latin based language, did they loose
> track of their Illyrian language?
If the place was so early and so thoroughly latinized as it is usually
postulated, they probably did.
> 2. Were they monolingual in this language?
In Latin? I don't exactly know, but with Latin as the sole written
language, and with Rome so near, they probably had little use for
Illyrian.
> 3. When/How did they become Slavicized/Albanized?
How and why do languages die anyway? That is a whole thread's worth of
discussion. Interested as I am in the topic, I am happy to discuss it
for weeks, if needed. I am unfortunately not familiar with the history
of the region, so I cannot yet present a hypothesis. Any ideas?
Dušan Vukoti
1. There is no one in the world who can say that Illyrian language
ever existed; also, no one can say that Illyrians were ever a compact
nation. The name Illyric might be connected to the instrument lyra and
Latin hilaro -are [to make joyful , to cheer up]. In fact, Illyrians
could be named Kolarici in Serbian (cf. today pejorative name for
Serbs and Yugoslavs in Germany - Kolaritsch). Of course, the initial
velar is omitted in Illyric, just as it happened in thousands of other
IE words (cf. Greek /'elios the sun). (H)elios (the sun) was
named like that thanks to the round shape of the sun (Serbian kolo
circle). The Serbian word KOLO also means 'dance' (kolo igrati -
dance, celebrate; here we can see that Latin celebratio clearly
corresponds to the Serbian word 'kolovrat' [vrteti se u kolu - to
rotate in a circle]).
Now we know that Latin 'hilaro' is the same word as Serbian
'kolari' (those who dance, celebrate, kolovrte or vrte se u kolu). The
name Slavs also comes from the verb 'slaviti' (celebrate or dance in a
circle). Additionally, Serbian words 'slaviti' (celebrate) and
'sloboda' (freedom, liberty) came from the same paleo-basis (shur-
bhel-ghon). Interesting, the same logic was present when Albanians
took the Latin word 'hilaro' as their 'liri' (liberty).
I would like if Abdullah were not so afraid of my arguments and if he
tried to rebut my above statement.
2. What language?
3. The Roman province of Illyria was inhabited with a multitude of
different people: Romans, Goths, Celts, Avars, Huns, Slavs,
Greeks....The nation under name Illyrians never existed and there is
neither written nor oral rdocuments from the ancient era which could
have proven otherwise.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
>
>
> I would like if Abdullah were not so afraid of my arguments and if he
> tried to rebut my above statement.
I would like that you would find better arguments than calling
everybody and everything a homosexual.
Dušan Vukoti
You must have picked the wrong thread or even the wrong newsgroup.
Boozed again?
DV
phog...@abo.fi
It is entirely in character of you to pretend that you don't remember
all the coarse abuse that you have liberally spouted all over the
place every time someone has questioned your crackpot ideas.
António Marques
> The Romans conquered the area of modern-day Serbia/Montenegro/
> Bosnia&Herz'a, etc. Eventually, these lands spoke a Latin-based
> language.
>
> Here are my questions:
> 1. As the natives adopted the Latin based language, did they loose
> track of their Illyrian language?
Just as much as the french lost track of gaulish, I think.
> 2. Were they monolingual in this language?
Illyrian? Some illyrian speakers were, probably. But there may have been
other languages spoken nearby.
> 3. When/How did they become Slavicized/Albanized?
They didn't become slavicised/albanised. The albanians were there from
the beginning, and may reprsent a group of illyrians who never lost
their language, though it bowwored heavily from latin, greek, and later
slavic and turkish.
The illyrian hinterland was settled by slavs from the 6th century on.
It's not clear which language was spoken there before. It may even have
been romanian. The only definite dalmatian known is from the
now-croatian coastal areas.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Dušan Vukoti
>The albanians were there from
> the beginning, and may reprsent a group of illyrians who never lost
> their language, though it bowwored heavily from latin, greek, and later
> slavic and turkish.
Have you any proof to substantiate the above statement?
DV
António Marques
>> The albanians were there from
>> the beginning, and may reprsent a group of illyrians who never lost
>> their language, though it bowwored heavily from latin, greek, and later
>> slavic and turkish.
>
> Have you any proof to substantiate the above statement?
Which of the two? (the second has 'may', btw.)
Have you any evidence to cast doubt over them? And your ramblings about
what's logical and what isn't aren't 'evidence'. On the minimum, you
must present a theory about where did the albanians come from and when,
and that theory must be backed up by some evidence, and your ramblings
about what's logical and what isn't aren't 'evidence'.
And your ramblings about what's logical and what isn't aren't 'evidence'.
Dušan Vukoti
Please, do not be so (Il)lyric and choleric. My hearing is still
well...therefore, there is no need neither for shouting nor
parroting. :-)
1) Illyrian "langage" is based on a handful of words, which, by the
way, could be completely assigned to the Slavic vocabulary
http://vukotic.atspace.com/illyr.htm
2) Atalliota says: [...Unfortunately, the people who had once beenour
allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same
religion, i.e. the _Albanians and_the_Latins_, who live in the Italian
regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became
enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command
againsttheir leaders...]
3) Ana Komnnena: [..."Robert was being worried on all sides by the SO-
CALLED Albanians and by the NATIVES of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus".
4) Albanian originally does not belong to the IE branch of
languages.
Could you explain how 'mother' became 'sister' (Alb. motër = sister)
in Albanian?
Albanian tamël (mjel milk) could be explained with the PIE root
*melg- (Gr. amelgo, Lat. mulgeo), but what to say about the origin of
qumësht 'milk' (or klumësht). Orel tried to compare that word with
Latin colostrum (first milk; probably from L. callosus solid; cf.
English curd, from OE crudan; Serb. gruda lump; English earth) but, as
you can see, it does not seem plausible at all. In reality, above-
mentioned klumësht sounds close to Serbian kolomast/kolomaz (grease),
but this comparison also could hardly be possible.
Some other "common" IE words: "love" for instance (Alb. dashuri; verb
dua to love) does not sound Indo-European in Albanian. Nevertheless,
we can see here that dashuri has come from the earlier form (dashuni)
and that 'dashun' is an equivalent to the Serbian word
'tezhnja' (aspiration; cf. Gr.deuo /edeuesen want, to miss).
Albanian gjelbër (green) and verdhë (yellow) are the words evidently
borrowed from the Latin vocabulary (virdis green; gilvus yellow;
galbinus greenish-yellow); What do you think, why Albanian verdhë has
the meaning yellow? And why yellow looks green in shqipe?
5) What can we say about Albanian word bardhë (white)? Could it be
related to the Greek parthen-ios (maidenly; metaphorical pure,
undefiled, white)? :-)
6) Do you know what was the name of the capital of the Caucasian
Albania?
B rd ! Either Bärdä! Interesting, is it not?
Phonetically, the name of this Azerbaijani town sounds the same as the
Balkan-Albanian word 'bardhë' white!
Chance resemblance? May be yes may be no, but this example showed
clearly how delicate the problem of Albanian origin could be.
http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v3f7/v3f7a076.html
DV
>From an earlier discussion with Abdullah about the name Barthylis
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_frm/thread/93596a18e61af66b/36f17a680d5cdbd8?lnk=gst&q=bratojle#36f17a680d5cdbd8
I agree here with you. Ur-basis of the Albanian 'bredh' (fir) and
'bardhë' (white) obviously was BR-GON (or the "root" *bherHg'-) as
it was the source of other words, Albanian 'bredh' (wander), Albanian
'prag' (threshold; loan word from Serbian -prag-) or the English
'bread'. For instance, English bread probably came from OHG prio an
(Latin frangere, Serbian prsnuti) but it could have also come from
the
English 'burn' (Serbian purenje); i.e. from 'brewing' (Serb. 'vrenje'
yeast fermenting process). In fact, it doesn't matter (at all!) from
which of the three above "sources" bread appeared, because all the
above processes are clearly and logically connected.
There is no doubt that the Albanian 'bardhë' and English 'bright' are
the descendants of the same above progenitor. Nevertheless, I could
not agree with you that 'birch' (Serbian 'breza') means
"white tree" because 'percus' ("Perk nas, Latvian P rkons,
Prussian Perkonis, in name and function closely associated with the
Slavic Perun, Hittite Peruna, Old Indic Parj nya" /Marija Gimbutas
The Balts/) has the meaning 'oak'. Most of the modern linguists
believe that Latin 'quercus' is coming from 'percus'; in
reality, 'quercus' is related to Serbian 'hrast' and Celtic
'Hercynia', both from the basis HOR-GON. Perkunas, like Perun, Thor
and Donnar, is a Thunder god and, as we know, thunder strikes the oak
tree very often. Serbian 'brest' might be translated as
'bel-hrast' (elm; white oak), or it just happened to look so
because <brest> is the tree of the god Bel. If we consider carefully
the Serbian word 'drvo' we will see that this word comes from the
ancient basis HOR-BEL (compare Russian / erevo, Serbian
'gorivo' /fuel/, 'ogrev' /fuel/ and you will be able to grasp
what I am talking about).
Romanian 'barza' is coming from the same well spring as the Serbian
word 'roda' (stork). In fact barza (roda, stork) is considered as
to be the BIRD that BRINGS babies. As you see I intentionally
capitalized words BIRD and BRING trying to show you the way in which
the English words BIRD, BRING and BIRTH are mutually connected
(Serbian
POROD = BIRTH). Hence, Romanian BARZA has nothing to do with your
'white bird'?
Let me finish. I do also agree with you that no one with the sound
mind would have ever claimed that Bardhylis was not derived from BR-
GON
basis (or your *bhr.H2g'-o "root"). The ur-basis BR-GON means
literally 'opposite driving' and there from we have the Serbian
words 'obrtati' (rotate), 'obratiti se' (address),
'obrnuti' (convert), 'obratno' (inverse), 'vrteti' (spin),
'obratiti se nekome' (come up to). If you were in trouble to whom
would you come up to for help? Of course, probably you would have
addressed first to your brother (Serbian BRAT). There are a lot of
Serbian names and surnames that have been derived from the word BRAT
(brother) - BRACAN, BRATKO, BRATISLAV, BRATOVOJE, BRATOMIR, BRAJAN
(medieval Serbian name, the same as today's BRIAN in UK), BRATOLJUB
(often nicknamed as BRATOJLE); and some other names (old and modern)
as
BRACA, BRAJO, BRALE, BRAJLE, BRAJILO.
According to the above analysis Bardhylis appears to be a clear
Slavic
name, and I admit, it opposes the official historic view about "the
great migration of the Slavs" during the 6-7th century AD. It shows,
together with the clear Slavic geographical names across the whole
Central and South Europe, that Slavs were indigenous Balkan people.
DV
Milan Heinz
Serb (they are all nationalists and chauvinist);
Nevertheless, in this particular case, he seems to be right.
> 1) Illyrian "langage" is based on a handful of words, which, by the
> way, could be completely assigned to the Slavic vocabulary http://vukotic.atspace.com/illyr.htm
>From the point of the Slovenian (Venetic) vocabulary almost all the
above Illyric words are completely transparent.
> 2) Atalliota says: [...Unfortunately, the people who had once beenour
> allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same
> religion, i.e. the _Albanians and_the_Latins_, who live in the Italian
> regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became
> enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command
> againsttheir leaders...]
>
Attaliota lived about 1070 A. D. and he couldn't be wrong when he
claimed that the Albanians were the rightful citizens of Western Rome
in the first half of the 11th century.
Historia by Michael Attaliata (1853; page 9) says:
[...etiam priores socii aequales nobis civitatis participes ut etiam
eiusdem deorum cultus, Albani et Latini, quicunque post occidentalem
Romam ltalicis regionibus adhaerent...]
Chalcocondyles also thinks that "Albanians came from the other side of
the Adriatic".
> 3) Ana Komnnena: [..."Robert was being worried on all sides by the SO-
> CALLED Albanians and by the NATIVES of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus".
If we follow the Attaliota's claim "that Albanians were the rightful
citizens of Western Rome" we must realise why Comnena claims that the
Albanians are not native to the Balkan peninsula.
MHeinz
Dušan Vukoti
> I am a Slovenian and I know that Dusan cannot be better than any other
> Serb (they are all nationalists and chauvinist);
> Nevertheless, in this particular case, he seems to be right.
>
> > 1) Illyrian "langage" is based on a handful of words, which, by the
> >From the point of the Slovenian (Venetic) vocabulary almost all the
>
> above Illyric words are completely transparent.
>
> > 2) Atalliota says: [...Unfortunately, the people who had once beenour
> > allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same
> > religion, i.e. the _Albanians and_the_Latins_, who live in the Italian
> > regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became
> > enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command
> > againsttheir leaders...]
>
> Attaliota lived about 1070 A. D. and he couldn't be wrong when he
> claimed that the Albanians were the rightful citizens of Western Rome
> in the first half of the 11th century.
> Historia by Michael Attaliata (1853; page 9) says:
> [...etiam priores socii aequales nobis civitatis participes ut etiam
> eiusdem deorum cultus, Albani et Latini, quicunque post occidentalem
> Romam ltalicis regionibus adhaerent...]
>
> Chalcocondyles also thinks that "Albanians came from the other side of
> the Adriatic".
>
> > 3) Ana Komnnena: [..."Robert was being worried on all sides by the SO-
> > CALLED Albanians and by the NATIVES of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus".
>
> If we follow the Attaliota's claim "that Albanians were the rightful
> citizens of Western Rome" we must realise why Comnena claims that the
> Albanians are not native to the Balkan peninsula.
>
> MHeinz
Heinz,
Slovenians are trying to pursuade the rest of the world that they are
descendants and undisputed heirs of the Veneten, (Wends, Vindi) and,
of course, they are neither fervent nationalists nor compulsive
chauvinists. ;-)
DV
Did you know that the name of Slavs, Slovenians, Slovaks and Serbs
(Serbli) share the same Sur-Bel-Gon Ur-basis? The solution of the
above riddle lies in words like Lat. sorbeo, Germ. surpeln => slurpen
slurp and Slavic 'slaviti' (fete);
What a WINDY celebration! ;-)
mb
...
> Did you know that the name of Slavs, Slovenians, Slovaks and Serbs
> (Serbli) share the same Sur-Bel-Gon Ur-basis?
Retard.
Dušan Vukoti
> Retard.
Do not worry;
I do understand that your backwardness is the Mother Nature's fault
Neverthless, Retard please, do not sign someone else's statement in
the future.
DV
Milan Heinz
>
> - Show quoted text -
Autochtonic Servian School? According to wich the Serbs are older than
amoebas?
As far as I know, Vasmer stated that the Slavic name originated from a
certain river's name (I cannot remember which one exactly). I can't
see how sorbeo and slurp could be related to the name of Slavs?
MHeinz
Dušan Vukoti
>
> - Show quoted text -
Vasmer? Eh!
I do not know where he found the river Slavnica... :-)
He is right that the name of Slavs originated from "water-like"
characteristics, but he was unable to understand that the Slavic words
'slava' (glory), slaviti (celebrate), slovo (letter, word), sloviti
(speak) have been developed from the same Ur-basis as
'sliv' (confluent), slivati (spill out, decant); for instance
'slovo' (letter) came from slivati, izlivati (mold, form by pouring);
cf. Serb. olovo (plumb, lead).
For Vasmer the parallel between words Slav and Sloboda (freedom) is
"unbelievable" and it shows that he was anable to understand the
process in which the IE vocabularies have been generated; cf. liberty
and celebrate and you will see for yourself what I am aiming at.
DV
phog...@abo.fi
That *would* explain a lot.
phog...@abo.fi
> I can't
> see how sorbeo and slurp could be related to the name of Slavs?
Maybe sljivovica is the missing link here? Not to mention...
"vodka, vodka, mat' rodnaya,
vodka, russkaya reka".
Vega
Dusan Vucotice You are a Serb we know that and you want to change
history facts, NO my friend that's not going to happen!
Ignoring the fact that the slavs came to ballcans in 7th century is
more than ridiculous therefore please don't try to make us fools
becuase there are other sources as well in the world!
Vegim!