fiasco
retrosorter
that "the fig. use of the phrase far fiasco (lit. ‘to make a bottle’)
in the sense ‘to break down or fail in a performance’ is of obscure
origin; Italian etymologists have proposed various guesses, and
alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history are related to account
for it. "
Does anyone know of some of these fanciful "incidents in Italian
theatrical history?"
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
They are "obsure". They might never have happened.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fiasco&searchmode=none
fiasco
1855, theater slang for "a failure," by 1862 acquired the general sense of
any dismal flop, on or off the stage. Via Fr. phrase fiare fiasco "turn
out a failure," from It. far fiasco "suffer a complete breakdown in
performance," lit. "make a bottle," from fiasco "bottle," from L.L.
flasco, flasconem (see flask). The reason for all this is utterly obscure
today, but "the usual range of fanciful theories has been advanced"
[Ayto]. Weekley finds it utterly mysterious and compares Fr. ramasser un
pelle "to come a cropper (in bicycling), lit. to pick up a shovel." OED
makes nebulous reference to "alleged incidents in Italian theatrical
history." Klein suggests Venetian glass-crafters tossing aside imperfect
pieces to be made later into common flasks. But according to an Italian
dictionary, fare il fiasco used to mean "to play a game so that the one
that loses will pay the fiasco," in other words, he will buy the next
bottle (of wine). That plausibly connects the word with the notion of "a
costly mistake."
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>They are "obsure".
That is "obscure" with a "c" so obscure it is invisible.
Nick
> to "alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history." Klein suggests
> Venetian glass-crafters tossing aside imperfect pieces to be made
> later into common flasks.
Nothing common about the sort of flasks Klein is famous for.
It's interesting that if someone "bottles it" then the event is a fiasco.
--
Waterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk
James Silverton
>> to "alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history."
>> Klein suggests Venetian glass-crafters tossing aside
>> imperfect pieces to be made later into common flasks.
> Nothing common about the sort of flasks Klein is famous for.
It's never been suggested that Klein tried to make one of his bottles or
persuaded anyone else to. He lived from 1849 to 1925 so he could have
met (but AFAIK, did not) Mobius (1790-1868).
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Prai Jei
continuum:
The story I heard was that the fiasco was of military origin. The flask in
question was one's powder flask, and the original fiasco was where the
powder burnt - or exploded - while still in the flask, thus putting the
unfortunate musketeer out of the battle.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Adam Funk
> Nick wrote on 20 Nov 2008 19:50:56 GMT:
>
>>> to "alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history."
>>> Klein suggests Venetian glass-crafters tossing aside
>>> imperfect pieces to be made later into common flasks.
>
>> Nothing common about the sort of flasks Klein is famous for.
>
> It's never been suggested that Klein tried to make one of his bottles or
> persuaded anyone else to. He lived from 1849 to 1925 so he could have
> met (but AFAIK, did not) Mobius (1790-1868).
Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
--
I spend almost as time figuring out what's wrong with my computer as
I do actually using it. Networked software, especially, requires
frequent updates and maintenance, all of which gets in the way of
doing routine work. (Stoll 1995)
Hatunen
<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>On 2008-11-20, James Silverton wrote:
>
>> Nick wrote on 20 Nov 2008 19:50:56 GMT:
>>
>>>> to "alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history."
>>>> Klein suggests Venetian glass-crafters tossing aside
>>>> imperfect pieces to be made later into common flasks.
>>
>>> Nothing common about the sort of flasks Klein is famous for.
>>
>> It's never been suggested that Klein tried to make one of his bottles or
>> persuaded anyone else to. He lived from 1849 to 1925 so he could have
>> met (but AFAIK, did not) Mobius (1790-1868).
>
>Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
>
>http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web site's
claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface where
the small pipe enters.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
patpow...@gmail.com
wrote:
I read a biography of Hilbert and seem to recall that Klein was quite
enthusiastic about the manufacture of models of the Klein bottle as a
teaching aid. A real Klein bottle is 4D. I think it would be cool to
have a computer simulation that allows one to travel inside of a Klein
bottle topology.
Adam Funk
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:53:06 +0000, Adam Funk
><a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
>>
>>http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
>
> Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web site's
> claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface where
> the small pipe enters.
True. But it's probably the closest thing you can manufacture if you
only have three dimensions to work with. <g>
--
Oh, I do most of my quality thinking on the old sandbox. [Bucky Katt]
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
>> Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web site's
>> claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface where
>> the small pipe enters.
> True. But it's probably the closest thing you can manufacture if you
> only have three dimensions to work with. <g>
A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models of
manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you can pass
the strands making up one patch of surface through another patch,
with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics department threw his
models away a few years after he retired.
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
Amethyst Deceiver
bo...@purr.demon.co.uk says...
> >>> Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
> >>> http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
> >> Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web site's
> >> claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface where
> >> the small pipe enters.
> > True. But it's probably the closest thing you can manufacture if you
> > only have three dimensions to work with. <g>
>
> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models of
> manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you can pass
> the strands making up one patch of surface through another patch,
> with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics department threw his
> models away a few years after he retired.
Klein bottle hats: http://www.kleinbottle.com/klein_bottle_hats.htm
Knitted klein bottle: http://web.meson.org/topology/klein.php
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
James Silverton
>>>> Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
>>>> http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
>>> Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web
>>> site's claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface
>>> where the small pipe enters.
>> True. But it's probably the closest thing you can
>> manufacture if you only have three dimensions to work with.
>> <g>
> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models
> of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you
> can pass the strands making up one patch of surface through
> another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics
> department threw his models away a few years after he retired.
I'd like to have seen them. Do you know if any photographs remain?
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models
>> of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you
>> can pass the strands making up one patch of surface through
>> another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics
>> department threw his models away a few years after he retired.
> I'd like to have seen them. Do you know if any photographs remain?
None in Edinburgh. If anybody's got any it'll be Martin Gardner.
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models of
>manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you can pass
>the strands making up one patch of surface through another patch,
>with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics department threw his
>models away a few years after he retired.
A colleague of mine had his own knitted Klein bottles etc in his room to my
knowledge until a few years ago; I'm sure he hasn't thrown them away.
Katy
Roland Hutchinson
>>>> Acme (seriously) has taken over the mantle (and scarf):
>>>> http://www.kleinbottle.com/index.htm
>>> Not a true Klein bottle, of course. Contrary to the web site's
>>> claim, there is a boundary: the hole in the large surface where
>>> the small pipe enters.
>> True. But it's probably the closest thing you can manufacture if you
>> only have three dimensions to work with. <g>
>
> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models of
> manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you can pass
> the strands making up one patch of surface through another patch,
> with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics department threw his
> models away a few years after he retired.
I seem to recall that patterns are available somewhere or other for those
who want to knit their own.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
John Holmes
>
> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted models of
> manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With knitting you can pass
> the strands making up one patch of surface through another patch,
> with no holes. Unfortunately the mathematics department threw his
> models away a few years after he retired.
Well, what would you expect them to do with a pile of old knitting that
wouldn't fit anyone?
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
James Silverton
> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
> [of Klein bottles etc.]
>>
>> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted
>> models of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With
>> knitting you can pass the strands making up one patch of
>> surface through another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the
>> mathematics department threw his models away a few years after he
>> retired.
> Well, what would you expect them to do with a pile of old
> knitting that wouldn't fit anyone?
While the method of "making" a Klein bottle was ingenious, the thought
of a Math. Prof. spending time knitting conjures up the uncharitable
thought that standards have greatly improved at Edinburgh, which is now
a highly rated university.
Roland Hutchinson
> John wrote on Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:25:56 +1100:
>
>> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>> [of Klein bottles etc.]
>>>
>>> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted
>>> models of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With
>>> knitting you can pass the strands making up one patch of
>>> surface through another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the
>>> mathematics department threw his models away a few years after he
>>> retired.
>
>> Well, what would you expect them to do with a pile of old
>> knitting that wouldn't fit anyone?
>
> While the method of "making" a Klein bottle was ingenious, the thought
> of a Math. Prof. spending time knitting conjures up the uncharitable
> thought that standards have greatly improved at Edinburgh, which is now
> a highly rated university.
You can buy knitting instructions for a Klein bottle somewhere, I think. Is
that another one of Mr. Stoll's offerings, perhaps?
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted
>>> models of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With
>>> knitting you can pass the strands making up one patch of
>>> surface through another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the
>>> mathematics department threw his models away a few years after he
>>> retired.
>> Well, what would you expect them to do with a pile of old
>> knitting that wouldn't fit anyone?
Perhaps not in three dimensions, but you gotta think ahead.
> While the method of "making" a Klein bottle was ingenious, the thought
> of a Math. Prof. spending time knitting conjures up the uncharitable
> thought that standards have greatly improved at Edinburgh, which is now
> a highly rated university.
They once had a reputation for geometry and topology, back when that
guy was working - but not any more. And Alan Turing used to knit;
he may have got the idea for the way the Turing machine is programmed
from the formalism of knitting patterns.
So don't diss knitting, okay?
Adam Funk
> [of Klein bottles etc.]
>>>> A professor at the University of Edinburgh made knitted
>>>> models of manifolds like this, back in the 1960s. With
>>>> knitting you can pass the strands making up one patch of
>>>> surface through another patch, with no holes. Unfortunately the
>>>> mathematics department threw his models away a few years after he
>>>> retired.
>>> Well, what would you expect them to do with a pile of old
>>> knitting that wouldn't fit anyone?
>
> Perhaps not in three dimensions, but you gotta think ahead.
One man's "blue sky research" is another's advance planning.
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Stob 2001)