word words

[Dieter Britz]

There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
(flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
"Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
so it was Fort Fort Fort.

What is the name for this sort of thing?

--
Dieter Britz

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not sure there is one, because linguistically it's not terribly
significant, but David Crystal has an example (maybe it's in Stories
of English?) of a place (was it a river or a hill?) with the same
meaning three times over.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Pleonasm. Except that it isn't, since these are words
that have not retained their meaning in the second language.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sep 13, 6:23 am, garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
wrote:

> Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
> > the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
> > (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> > originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> > "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> > so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> > What is the name for this sort of thing?
>
> Pleonasm. Except that it isn't, since these are words
> that have not retained their meaning in the second language.
>
> --

"Trans-lingual pseudo-pleonasm"?

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:05:14 -0700 (PDT),
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in
<news:c94fc7bb-5360-4a96...@g7g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:

> On Sep 13, 6:23�am, garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> wrote:

>> Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

>>> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebr�d, which means

>>> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
>>> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
>>> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
>>> so it was Fort Fort Fort.

>>> What is the name for this sort of thing?

>> Pleonasm. Except that it isn't, since these are words
>> that have not retained their meaning in the second language.

> "Trans-lingual pseudo-pleonasm"?

I'd just call it toponymic pleonasm.

Which reminds me that I recently biked past the delightfully
name Pond Brook; sadly, there does not seem to be an
associated Brook Pond.

Brian

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sep 12, 6:37 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:05:14 -0700 (PDT),

> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in

> <news:c94fc7bb-5360-4a96...@g7g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> > On Sep 13, 6:23 am, garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> > wrote:
> >> Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> >>> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means

> >>> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> >>> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> >>> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> >>> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
> >>> What is the name for this sort of thing?
> >> Pleonasm. Except that it isn't, since these are words
> >> that have not retained their meaning in the second language.
> > "Trans-lingual pseudo-pleonasm"?
>
> I'd just call it toponymic pleonasm.
>
> Which reminds me that I recently biked past the delightfully
> name Pond Brook; sadly, there does not seem to be an
> associated Brook Pond.

There's Bound Brook, NJ, which seems pretty close ...

both Wood-Ridge and Woodbridge ...

how about Plainfield?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 11, 4:21 am, Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that

pide means "faltbread" in Turkish.

> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>

I would like to know more about that

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 12, 11:52 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 11, 4:21 am, Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
> > the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
> > (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
>
> pide means "faltbread" in Turkish.
>

there is also "chai tea"

in Persian and Turkic *ch*a:y / *ch*ay means "tea" from Chinese
(Mandarin). tea is from Cantonese.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:18:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:bce56d1a-1b72-4764...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:

> On Sep 12, 6:37�pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

[...]

>> Which reminds me that I recently biked past the delightfully
>> name Pond Brook; sadly, there does not seem to be an
>> associated Brook Pond.

> There's Bound Brook, NJ, which seems pretty close ...

> both Wood-Ridge and Woodbridge ...

> how about Plainfield?

None of them has the mild incongruity of 'Pond Brook'. Now
if you find a Sea River, ...

[pauljk]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:8zq33s1wzql2.n...@40tude.net...

Couldn't be easier, there's one in our part of the world! :-)

Sea River, Vanuatu.

It's not a river, it's a reef, and it's in the ocean.
http://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Sea-River

pjk

[Joe Fineman]

Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> writes:

> in Persian and Turkic *ch*a:y / *ch*ay means "tea" from Chinese
> (Mandarin). tea is from Cantonese.

So also in Russian. The specialized sense of the import into English,
tho, seems to refer to Indian styles.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: It's much more fun to imagine how I might have behaved :||
||: worse than how I might have behaved better. :||

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 13, 5:57 pm, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > in Persian and Turkic *ch*a:y / *ch*ay means "tea" from Chinese
> > (Mandarin). tea is from Cantonese.

in Mandarin it is *ch*a there are various explanations for -y in
Turkic, Mongolian and Persian.

>
> So also in Russian.  The specialized sense of the import into English,

from Turkic during the Mongol period.

[Tak To]

On 9/13/2012 12:12 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On Sep 12, 11:52 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 4:21 am, Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

>>> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebr�d, which means

>>> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
>>
>> pide means "faltbread" in Turkish.
>>
>
> there is also "chai tea"
>
> in Persian and Turkic *ch*a:y / *ch*ay means "tea" from Chinese
> (Mandarin). tea is from Cantonese.

Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
has "te". I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 14, 12:30 am, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
> On 9/13/2012 12:12 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
> > On Sep 12, 11:52 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sep 11, 4:21 am, Dieter Britz <dieterhansbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> >>> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means

> >>> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
>
> >> pide means "faltbread" in Turkish.
>
> > there is also "chai tea"
>
> > in Persian and Turkic *ch*a:y / *ch*ay means "tea" from Chinese
> > (Mandarin). tea is from Cantonese.
>
> Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
> has "te".  I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
> from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.

Hindustani has both *ch*a:y and *ch*a: . *ch*a:y being from Persian.

the question is the origin of final -y . the early borrowing theory
assumes it comes from cha ye "tea leaf". such borrowings in Old Turkic
are attested chên chu "genuine pearl" > Old Turkic yin*ch*ü (yän*ch*ü
is also attested) yin*ch*ü ögüz "Pearl River) is translated as chên
chu ho "Genuine Pearl River" (Syr Derya / Jaxartes) BTW syr means
"glaze" (also a Chinese lw.). initial y is explained as *j- > y- is
well known in Turkic (y- > j- also occurs).

but Doerfer points out that a: > a:y ; o: ( > u:) > o:y (> u:y) is a
common sound change in Persian, leading to doublets. in this scenario
Chinese > Persian > Turkic > Mongolian. pa: "foot" ~ pa:y ; ro: ( >
ru:) "face" ~ ro:y ( > ru:y) in this scenario Chinese > Persian >
Turkic > Mongolian. I doubt that the Turks and Mongols had to borrow
"tea" from Persian, though Mongolian does have a hadful of Persian
words.

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 07:55:59 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :


>
> > Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
>
> > has "te".  I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
>
> > from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.
>
>
>
> Hindustani has both *ch*a:y and *ch*a: . *ch*a:y being from Persian.
>
>
>
> the question is the origin of final -y . the early borrowing theory
>
> assumes it comes from cha ye "tea leaf".

***

That's clever
but the pronunciation ye4 for "leaf" is rather recent, less than 1000 y.

Tang Chinese was yep with final -p
so you have to wait until final stops fall in Mandarin to have that idea stand on its feet.

In my opinion, something better is needed.

A.
***

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 14, 3:34 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 07:55:59 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
>
> > > has "te".  I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
>
> > > from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.
>
> > Hindustani has both *ch*a:y and *ch*a: .  *ch*a:y being from Persian.
>
> > the question is the origin of final -y . the early borrowing theory
>
> > assumes it comes from cha ye "tea leaf".
>
> ***
>
> That's clever
> but the pronunciation ye4 for "leaf" is rather recent, less than 1000 y.
>
> Tang Chinese was yep with final -p
> so you have to wait until final stops fall in Mandarin to have that idea stand on its feet.
>
> In my opinion, something better is needed.
>

I'll try to look up what timeline Laufer and Menges had in mind.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 14, 3:55 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 14, 3:34 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 07:55:59 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> > > > Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
>
> > > > has "te".  I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
>
> > > > from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.
>
> > > Hindustani has both *ch*a:y and *ch*a: .  *ch*a:y being from Persian.
>
> > > the question is the origin of final -y . the early borrowing theory
>
> > > assumes it comes from cha ye "tea leaf".
>
> > ***
>
> > That's clever
> > but the pronunciation ye4 for "leaf" is rather recent, less than 1000 y.
>
> > Tang Chinese was yep with final -p
> > so you have to wait until final stops fall in Mandarin to have that idea stand on its feet.
>
> > In my opinion, something better is needed.
>
> I'll try to look up what timeline Laufer and Menges had in mind.
>
>

Enc. Iranica says relying earlier on Laufer, 1919 ("Sino-Iranica ...")

<<

The habit of drinking tea apparently did not spread to western Asia
before the 7th/13th century, and the Mongols may have been involved in
propagating it (Laufer, p. 553).

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 10:49:32 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
> On Sep 14, 3:55 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 14, 3:34 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Le vendredi 14 septembre 2012 07:55:59 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> >
>
> > > > > Mandarin has "cha", Cantonese has "tsa", and Minnan
>
> >
>
> > > > > has "te".  I would imagine Persian and Turkic came
>
> >
>
> > > > > from Early Mandarin if not Middle Chinese.
>
> >
>
> > > > Hindustani has both *ch*a:y and *ch*a: .  *ch*a:y being from Persian.
>
> >
>
> > > > the question is the origin of final -y . the early borrowing theory
>
> >
>
> > > > assumes it comes from cha ye "tea leaf".
>
> >
>
> > > ***
>
> >
>
> > > That's clever
>
> > > but the pronunciation ye4 for "leaf" is rather recent, less than 1000 y.
>
> >
>
> > > Tang Chinese was yep with final -p
>
> > > so you have to wait until final stops fall in Mandarin to have that idea stand on its feet.
>
> >
>
> > > In my opinion, something better is needed.
>
> >
>
> > I'll try to look up what timeline Laufer and Menges had in mind.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> Enc. Iranica says relying earlier on Laufer, 1919 ("Sino-Iranica ...")
>
>
>
> <<
>
>
>
> The habit of drinking tea apparently did not spread to western Asia
>
> before the 7th/13th century, and the Mongols may have been involved in
>
> propagating it (Laufer, p. 553).
>

***

ok

So fairly recent datings like the 11 or 12 centuries are ok

A.

[wugi]

Dieter Britz wrote:
> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebr�d, which means

> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> What is the name for this sort of thing?

After benlizro, a pseudonasm?
Personally, being named Guido Wuyts, I'm really your Forest Wolde man :-o

guido google:wugi

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-09-11 08:21:47 +0000, Dieter Britz said:

> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebr�d, which means

> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> What is the name for this sort of thing?

I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned "River Avon", of
which there are numerous examples, especially in England but also
elsewere, "afon" being the Welsh for "river".


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Not to mention Mount Berg (Canada) and Mount Sierra (California --
where they ought to know better -- and South Africa).
--
athel

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 15, 4:44 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2012-09-15 05:44:43 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
> > On 2012-09-11 08:21:47 +0000, Dieter Britz said:
>
> >> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> >> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means

> >> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> >> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> >> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> >> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> >> What is the name for this sort of thing?
>
> > I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned "River Avon", of
> > which there are numerous examples, especially in England but also
> > elsewere, "afon" being the Welsh for "river".
>
> Not to mention Mount Berg (Canada) and Mount Sierra (California --
> where they ought to know better -- and South Africa).

hey! you are forgetting Quebec! French is an official language in
Canada. they ought to know better in Canada more so than in
California.

> --
> athel

[Harlan Messinger]

How about Norwegian Nynorsk? "The Norwegian Language Council recommends
the name Norwegian Nynorsk when referring to this language in English,"
according to the wikis. "Nynorsk" = "New Norwegian".

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 15, 4:44 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2012-09-15 05:44:43 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
> > On 2012-09-11 08:21:47 +0000, Dieter Britz said:
>
> >> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.

> >> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means

> >> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> >> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> >> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> >> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> >> What is the name for this sort of thing?
>
> > I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned "River Avon", of
> > which there are numerous examples, especially in England but also
> > elsewere, "afon" being the Welsh for "river".
>
> Not to mention Mount Berg (Canada) and Mount Sierra (California --
> where they ought to know better -- and South Africa).

in Turkey this sentence is used to mock people who don't know Perso-
Arabisms:

Bab-I A^li^'nin yUksek kapIsInda ayIn mehtab I$Ig~Inda bir atlI
sUvariye tesadUfen rastladIm.

"at the high gate of the Sublime Porte in the light of the moon's
moonlight l coincidentally met by chance a horseback cavalryman."

bab : Arabic ba:b "gate"
a^li^ : Arabic 3a:li: "high"
yUksek : Turkish "high"
ay : Turkish "moon"
mehtab : Persian moonlight (ma:h, mah "moon"; ta:b light)
I$Ik : Turkish "light"
atlI "horseback"; at "horse"
sUvari : Persian su:va:ri: "cavalryman"
tesadUfen : Arabic tasa:duf-an "coincidentally"
rastla= to meet by chance; based on Persian ra:st "right, correct,
good".

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 16, 1:36 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 4:44 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2012-09-15 05:44:43 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
> > > On 2012-09-11 08:21:47 +0000, Dieter Britz said:
>
> > >> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
> > >> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
> > >> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> > >> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> > >> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> > >> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> > >> What is the name for this sort of thing?
>
> > > I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned "River Avon", of
> > > which there are numerous examples, especially in England but also
> > > elsewere, "afon" being the Welsh for "river".
>
> > Not to mention Mount Berg (Canada) and Mount Sierra (California --
> > where they ought to know better -- and South Africa).
>
> in Turkey this sentence is used to mock people who don't know Perso-
> Arabisms:
>
> Bab-I A^li^'nin yUksek kapIsInda ayIn mehtab I$Ig~Inda bir atlI
> sUvariye tesadUfen rastladIm.
>
> "at the high gate of the Sublime Porte in the light of the moon's
> moonlight l coincidentally met by chance a horseback cavalryman."
>

the Sublime Porte was the seat of the Ottoman government in the 19th
and early 20th cent. the building does indeed have a tall gate. it now
houses the governor's office of Istanbul province (which is
essentially the city and some outlying districts).

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 16, 1:36 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:

should be taSa:duf-an with emphatic s.

> rastla= to meet by chance; based on Persian ra:st "right, correct,

> good".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Sep 16, 1:36 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sep 15, 4:44 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2012-09-15 05:44:43 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:
>
> > > On 2012-09-11 08:21:47 +0000, Dieter Britz said:
>
> > >> There are words made up that repeat themselves. E.g.
> > >> the Turkish bread I bought was called pidebrød, which means
> > >> (flat)bread bread. I once read about a fort in Turkey that
> > >> originally had a Turkish name meaning "Fort", then became
> > >> "Redoubt <turkish name>", and later "Fort Redoubt <..>",
> > >> so it was Fort Fort Fort.
>
> > >> What is the name for this sort of thing?
>
> > > I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned "River Avon", of
> > > which there are numerous examples, especially in England but also
> > > elsewere, "afon" being the Welsh for "river".
>
> > Not to mention Mount Berg (Canada) and Mount Sierra (California --
> > where they ought to know better -- and South Africa).
>
> in Turkey this sentence is used to mock people who don't know Perso-
> Arabisms:
>
> Bab-I A^li^'nin yUksek kapIsInda ayIn mehtab I$Ig~Inda bir atlI

the recent orthography is BabIali as one word.

> sUvariye tesadUfen rastladIm.
>
> "at the high gate of the Sublime Porte in the light of the moon's
> moonlight l coincidentally met by chance a horseback cavalryman."
>
> bab : Arabic ba:b "gate"
> a^li^ : Arabic 3a:li: "high"

the above are the only two words not in current usage.

> yUksek : Turkish "high"
> ay  : Turkish "moon"
> mehtab : Persian moonlight (ma:h, mah "moon"; ta:b light)
> I$Ik : Turkish "light"
> atlI "horseback"; at "horse"

or a man on horseback, also native Turkish word for "cavalryman".

> sUvari : Persian su:va:ri: "cavalryman"

strictly speaking in Persian su:va:r