explaining "cool" (not temperature)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
"cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
fashionable circles than I do.

[Nathan Sanders]

In article
<7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,

It's got quite a wide range of uses:

A: Sorry I stepped on your foot!
B: Don't worry, it's cool.
(=I'm fine or will be soon)

We're cool.
(=we're on relatively good terms, though perhaps
we weren't in the (possibly very recent) past)

He's cool.
(=he's a nice/fun/trustworthy guy) (more common meaning)
(=he's hip/suave/popular) (less frequent meaning)

Cool! (with a high-falling intonation)
(=nice!, good for you!, how fun!, etc.)

Cooool! (longer, with a low-falling intonation)
(=nifty!, interesting!, amazing!, etc.)

Cool. (very short, with a low-falling intonation)
(=I agree, alright, okay, I hear what you are saying, etc.;
often used as conversational filler, especially when you
aren't really invested in the conversation)

Cool story, bro. (very current sarcasm)
(=that story was too long/boring, cf. "TL;DR")

Stay cool. (=stay calm)

Cool it! (=settle down!) (not used as much nowadays)

That's just off the top of my head. I"m sure there are some I'm
missing.

Nathan

--
Department of Linguistics
Swarthmore College
http://sanders.phonologist.org/

[Peter Young]

On 1 Oct 2012 Nathan Sanders <san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article
> <7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
>> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
>> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
>> fashionable circles than I do.

> It's got quite a wide range of uses:

[snip]

An early use, maybe even the first, was in the late 1940s, when "Cool
Jazz" emerged as an alternative to the relative asperities of bebop.
"Birth of the Cool" was a reissue of a splendid series of recordings
by Miles Davis et al from 1949 and 1950.

Peter.

(a.u.e. follow-up. I haven't time to read sci.lang!)

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Don Phillipson]

"Yusuf B Gursey" <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

The two chief references in American speech are
1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
2. From Marshall McLuhan's classification of hot and cool
communications media, in a book Understanding Media (1964),
shortly thereafter taken up by US advertisers, broadcasters, etc.

Case 3 is current American teenager speech, formally documented
but widely distributed (e.g. Youtube.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Christopher Ingham]

According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):

“1. insolent; impudent; unabashed; (_hence_) daring.” [1825]

“2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]

“2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]

“3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
musicians after WWII.]” [1933]

“3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]

“4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]

“5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]

“6. safe or well.” [1952]

It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].

Christopher Ingham

[Tak To]

What about Cool Hand Luke?

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 1, 2:39 pm, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

>
> > real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > fashionable circles than I do.
>
> The two chief references in American speech are
> 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
> 2.  From Marshall McLuhan's classification of hot and cool
> communications media, in a book Understanding Media (1964),
> shortly thereafter taken up by US advertisers, broadcasters, etc.
>
> Case 3 is current American teenager speech, formally documented
> but widely distributed (e.g. Youtube.)

Are you claiming that the (basically obsolete) 1 and/or 2 somehow
underlie, or morphed into, or _are_, 3?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 1, 2:48 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Date of that dictionary?

There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
sense and the current sense.

Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 1, 1:24 pm, Peter Young <pnyo...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

> (a.u.e. follow-up. I haven't time to read sci.lang!)

Hunh? When you crosspost to scil.lang, how does that cause you to read
sci.lang?

[Christopher Ingham]

Vol. 1 (A-G) was published in 1994; vol 2 (H-O) in 1997.

>
> There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> sense and the current sense.
>

There isn’t one current sense of the word (and in many instances of
usage more than one sense is implied). I think Bernstein used it in
Lighter’s sense no. 5, although he may have thought it derived from
jazz jargon.

>
> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>

He missed that. He has “Cool as shit” in a 1973 example of 3a.

There’s also a column on the noun form of “cool” (1. composure, 2. a
period of truce (underworld), and 3. stylishness), and a page on its
meanings as a verb (1. to kill [underworld], 2a. to knock unconscious,
2b. to to deliver a finishing blow, 2c. to do well on, 2d. to subdue
[a person], 3a. to mollify or appease, as with flattery or a bribe,
3b. to administer or sell heroin to, 4a. to put a stop to [extended
from “Cool it”], 4b. to put off, 5. to die, and 6. to relax, enjoy
oneself [cool it]), with the phrases “cool in”[?], “cool it,” and
“cool (one’s) jets.”

Christopher Ingham

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>

I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
rest, but it's not slang.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 1, 1:01 pm, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article
> <7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d-9ea2-2c3558c6d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,

thanks everybody

[Christopher Ingham]

OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
cited above.

The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).

Christopher Ingham

[Steve Hayes]

There have been numerous discussions about this on aue in the past, mainly
sponsored by Richard Fontana who had a theory that "cool" as in dispassionate
disappeared in the late 60s and returned in the mid-1970s as a result of a TV
series called "Happy Days", in which it was used as a term of general
approval.

Perhaps it disappeared in the late 1960s because it was replaced by the term
"laid-back".

The related term "hipster" seems to have undergone a similar change of
meaning.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

That seems like a rather strange theory. I don't think "cool" as in
dispassionate has ever disappeared. And if "Happy Days" may have given
a boost to "cool" as a general term of approval, it had been around
for years if not decades before that series started. (After all,
wasn't "H.D." a retro-series supposedly recreating teenage life in the
1950s?)

Mr Fontana seems to have been observing a very narrow slice of actual
English usage.

>
> The related term "hipster" seems to have undergone a similar change of
> meaning.

In what way?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>

Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
"here" refers to in your "but here..."

> The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>
> Christopher Ingham

Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
conventional simile.

[Christopher Ingham]

On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>
> > > > He missed that.
>
> > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > rest, but it's not slang.
>
> > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > cited above.
>
> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> "here" refers to in your "but here..."

Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.

>
> > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>

> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> conventional simile.

Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.

Christopher Ingham

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>

We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
"cool" 2a in the Online version.

>
>
> > > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>
> > Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> > or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> > conventional simile.
>
> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
>
> Christopher Ingham

No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
Larry" might be more idiomatic.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>

> > > > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "coolas acucumber" slang?

>
> > > > > > He missed that.
>
> > > > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > > > rest, but it's not slang.
>

> > > > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Coolas a

> > > or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_cool. It's just a

> > > conventional simile.
>
> > Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
>
> > Christopher Ingham
>
> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel

> that with thecucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> Larry" might be more idiomatic.-

Cucumbers, being moist, are perceived as having a temperature lower
than the ambient one (hence, "cool" in the literal, on-the-way-to-cold
sense). But saying that someone is "cool as a cucumber" is not a
reference to whether they are not feverish, or are hypothermic; it
refers to their calm in the face of disruption. Thus it is at least an
idiom, certainly a catch phrase (in Partridge's sense), and unless it
is widespread in formal prose, is at least colloquial, if not slang.

[Christopher Ingham]

My version is The compact OED² (1991), which has for 2a,
“_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
that of actual coolness [...].”

[James Silverton]

On 10/2/2012 9:29 AM, Christopher Ingham wrote:
> On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>>
>>>>>>> He missed that.
>>
>>>>>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
>>>>>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
>>>>>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
>>>>>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
>>>>>> rest, but it's not slang.
>>

>>>>> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. �Cool as a
>>>>> cucumber� also has this meaning, but here�cool� means �moderately
>>>>> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,� etc. (OED

>>>>> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
>>>>> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
>>>>> cited above.
>>
>>>> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
>>>> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
>>>> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
>>

>>> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to �cucumber� 2b I
>>> thought you were referring to �cool,� where, under 4a, I saw, �Of

>>> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;

>>> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.�
>>> But regardless, this doesn�t affect my argument.

>>
>> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
>> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>>>>> The phrase, however, is considered � as I find on the first two pages
>>>>> of Google search results � either slang (Siefring, The Oxford

>>>>> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
>>>>> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
>>>>> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
>>>>> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
>>>>> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
>>>>> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
>>>>> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>>
>>>> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
>>>> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
>>>> conventional simile.
>

> My version is The compact OED� (1991), which has for 2a,
> �_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
> that of actual coolness [...].�

>>
>>> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
>>
>>> Christopher Ingham
>>
>> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
>> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
>> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
>> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
>

The complimentary usage for "cool" is pretty common and the online OED
has:
8.colloq. (orig. U.S.).

a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.

It is interesting that it is up to date enough to also also have "bad":
8.colloq. (orig. U.S.)

a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Jerry Friedman]

The way I remember it, he said "cool" as a _term of approval_
disappeared in the late '60s or was limited to irony and was
popularized for the second time by _H. D._ ("Whirl up sea--/ Whirl
your pointed pines").

> Mr Fontana seems to have been observing a very narrow slice of actual
> English usage.

...

I did have that impression once in a while, though my experience was
rather similar to his. Ben Zimmer said there was good lexicographical
evidence that that sense of "cool" hadn't disappeared. I wouldn't be
surprised if it did have a dip in popularity, at least in some sizable
regions circles.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Christopher Ingham]

On Oct 2, 10:17 am, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 9:29 AM, Christopher Ingham wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >>>> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>
> >>>>>>> He missed that.
>
> >>>>>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> >>>>>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> >>>>>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> >>>>>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> >>>>>> rest, but it's not slang.
>

> >>>>> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> >>>>> cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> >>>>> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED

> >>>>> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> >>>>> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> >>>>> cited above.
>
> >>>> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> >>>> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> >>>> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
>

> >>> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> >>> thought you were referring to  “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of

> >>> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;

> >>> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”

> >>> But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.

>
> >> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
> >> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
>

> >>>>> The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> >>>>> of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford

> >>>>> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> >>>>> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> >>>>> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> >>>>> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> >>>>> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> >>>>> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> >>>>> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>
> >>>> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> >>>> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> >>>> conventional simile.
>

> > My version is The compact OED² (1991), which has for 2a,
> > “_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
> > that of actual coolness [...].”

>
> >>> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
>
> >>> Christopher Ingham
>
> >> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> >> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
> >> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> >> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
>
> The complimentary usage for "cool" is pretty common and the online OED
> has:
> 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.).
>
>   a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
>
> It is interesting that it is up to date enough to also also have "bad":
> 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.)
>
>   a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.

I’m surprised to see in Lighter (“bad” 2) its occurrence in
“esp._Black E_” as early as 1897. I assumed this sense of “bad” was
new in the 1970s, when its (and that of 2a, "very tough, pugnacious,
formidable (_hence_) formidably skilled," dating at least to 1855)
usage became rather widespread mainly via cinema and the music
industry.

Christopher Ingham

[Christopher Ingham]

On Oct 2, 10:54 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>

That should be 1a.

[Don Phillipson]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

> There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> sense and the current sense.

> > > . . . references in American speech are

> > 1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.

which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.

> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?

Probably not: as literal a simile as "hot as a pistol."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

>
> >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.

It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.
Also, compare the date of publication with the period during which the
show was being written! Unfortunately Sondheim in his big book gives
no dates at all, neither for the beginning of the collaboration nor
for the opening of the show. But there are no comments on "Cool" to
suggest there was anything unusual about the usage.

> >  Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>
> Probably not:  as literal a simile as "hot as a pistol."

Which also doesn't refer to fever or hyperthermia.

[Christopher Ingham]

On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

>
> >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> >  Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>
> Probably not:  as literal a simile as "hot as a pistol."

No, it’s not literal. As he and I have explained, the person who is
described as cool as a cucumber is not being thermally assessed.

(The compact) OED’s definition of the phrase “cool as cucumber” (sub
“cucumber” 2b),

“perfectly ‘cool’ or self-possessed, showing no sign of excitement or
disturbance,”

is equivalent to its description of “cool” 4a,

“not heated by passion or emotion; unexcited; dispassionate;

deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”

However, the literal sense of the “cool” in “cool as a cucumber” is
meant, and thus the word is equivalent to neither the abovementioned
“cool” nor the phrase. The simile is not literal.

Christopher Ingham

[Christopher Ingham]

On Oct 2, 12:42 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> > which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
> likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.
> Also, compare the date of publication with the period during which the
> show was being written! Unfortunately Sondheim in his big book gives
> no dates at all, neither for the beginning of the collaboration nor
> for the opening of the show. But there are no comments on "Cool" to
> suggest there was anything unusual about the usage.

Many composers were experimenting with synthesizing classical and jazz
music in the 1950s (Third Stream emerged in 1957, for example).
Bernstein’s music in the song “Cool” is certainly jazzy, but the use
of the word therein, while presumably evoking jazz lingo, derives from
a more traditional slang sense (Lighter’s “cool” 5) unrelated to those
of jazz musicians.

Christopher Ingham

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Well, with definitions that broad, almost everything could end up
being all three.
I don't find it compositionally opaque, since "cool" is still
connected to its thermic sense. It does not fit with the contents of
Partridge's compilation (his attempts at formal definition of "catch
phrase" are unsuccessful), and as for slang/colloquial....well, I
guess that will depend on you checking its frequency, from John Gay
(1732) on, and deciding which of the works in which it appears are
"formal prose".

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Oct 3, 5:42 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> > which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
> likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.

I'd go with neither vice nor versa. A minute with COHA found "real
cool" as a term of approval in Carson McCullers' _The Heart Is A
Lonely Hunter_ (1940), and in a 1955 article in _Good Housekeeping_
describing what girls think about Robert Merrill [!]. It was well and
truly out there before Mailer, Bernstein or Sondheim 'popularized' it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 2, 1:23 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> On Oct 2, 12:42 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > > >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> > > which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> > It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
> > likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.
> > Also, compare the date of publication with the period during which the
> > show was being written! Unfortunately Sondheim in his big book gives
> > no dates at all, neither for the beginning of the collaboration nor
> > for the opening of the show. But there are no comments on "Cool" to
> > suggest there was anything unusual about the usage.
>
> Many composers were experimenting with synthesizing classical and jazz
> music in the 1950s (Third Stream emerged in 1957, for example).
> Bernstein’s music in the song “Cool” is certainly jazzy, but the use
> of the word therein, while presumably evoking jazz lingo, derives from
> a more traditional slang sense (Lighter’s “cool” 5) unrelated to those
> of jazz musicians.

A notable example is his only film score, the remarkably unsuccessful
one for "On the Waterfront." It was done about the same time such as
Andre Previn and Henry Mancini were creating a new movie-music
language. (Bernstein's partisans like to marvel that it wasn't even
_nominated_ for Best Score.) He was rarely successful when he
explicitly / consciously tried to write "jazz," as in the "Prelude,
Fugue, and Riffs" from about the same time. Eventually he discovered
how to use pop elements in thoroughly classical scores (just as Bach
and Mozart had!) such as the Chichester Psalms.

[DKleinecke]

Cool cucumbers are just as real as dead doornails.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Oct 3, 9:18 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 5:42 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > > >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> > > which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> > It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
> > likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.
>
> I'd go with neither vice nor versa. A minute with COHA found "real
> cool" as a term of approval in Carson McCullers' _The Heart Is A
> Lonely Hunter_ (1940), and in a 1955 article in _Good Housekeeping_
> describing what girls think about Robert Merrill [!]. It was well and
> truly out there before Mailer, Bernstein or Sondheim 'popularized' it.
>

Couldn't resist adding a few more of these, thanks to ProQuest. as
some of them are quite interesting in themselves. Mainly I was
searching "real cool" as a way of getting past all the uses of "cool"
in other senses. But I found a few others using different strategies.
So: Pre-1957 "cool" as general approbative, widely known:

Chicago Tribune 24/8/47: San Francisco Enjoys Real Cool Climate [It's
just a travel article, and doesn't even mention jazz, but I can't help
thinking the phrase lurks beneath the headline]

Chicago Tribune, 5/5/49: For anything completely sensational, defying
description, we list these bop adjectives: Cool , gone, crazy, bells,
knocked out, fly, too much, comes on, the end. [This is in a column
“Tower ticker” by someone signing himself Savage. About current slang
among jazz musicians]

NY Times 1/1/50: ...bebop, or bop, a style of music whose adherents
say a thing is “cool” when they mean it is hot. [Article on the
decline of 52nd St, which a few years earlier had been the birthplace
of bebop] …

Washington Post, 7/6/1950: This is the new sleeveless fashion! It’s
cool, Teener, it’s real cool! [Here as elsewhere we get a play on the
thermic sense; but first clear indication that this is (white) teenage
slang, not restricted to (black) beboppers.]

Baltimore Afro-American 26/4/52: “If you want a candidate that’s real
cool…don’t vote for the elephant or the mule.” [Song promoting Louis
Jordan for President] [I've left out a number of early occurrences in
this and the Chicago Defender, both papers with primarily black
readership.]

1953 seems to be the year it breaks out everywhere:

LA Times 23/1/53: “…I met this real cool chick” (specimen of ‘teen
language’)
Washington Post 8/3/53: [‘Sub-teens’] pronounce jumpers “real cool”.
LA Times 18/4/53: “…giving Jack a real cool watch for Christmas….”
LA Times 18/5/53: “Bands of Benny Goodman, Louis Armstrong Sound ‘Real
Cool’ to Modern Generation”
LA Times 21/6/53: “THAT’s real cool news…”
Chicago Tribune 11/10/53: Give us some more pictures of Judy Hawkins.
She’s real cool.
LA Times 31/12/53: “real cool” [in report of teen slang from Boston]

And finally a couple of ads:

Chicago Tribune, 14/08/55: KIDS! [An ad for "Breezy Buttons", bearing
catch phrases such as "Real George", "Crazy, Man, Crazy", "Cruisin for
a Bruisin" etc etc.] "These Breezy Buttons that come in packages of
Armour Star Franks are real c-o-o-l."

NY Times 13/05/56: 3 COOL SQUARES. We overheard one "hep" teenager say
about our dining room, "dig this crazy chop house!" This year with the
comforts of air conditioning added we've made it "real cool". With 3
sumptuous "square" meals daily in a luxurious atmosphere, in jive
talk...it's the most, the coolest! [Ad for Kutsher's Country Club,
Monticello NY]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 3, 4:56 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 9:18 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On Oct 3, 5:42 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 11:30 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> > > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:8b89de0f-361b-4fe9...@m4g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > >  There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > > > >  sense and the current sense.
> > > > > > > . . .  references in American speech are
> > > > > > 1.  From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > > > > > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
>
> > > > which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
>
> > > It's highly likely that Lenny, at least, read *Dissent*, but it's more
> > > likely that Mailer heard it from Bernstein's milieu than vice versa.
>
> > I'd go with neither vice nor versa. A minute with COHA found "real
> > cool" as a term of approval in Carson McCullers' _The Heart Is A
> > Lonely Hunter_ (1940), and in a 1955 article in _Good Housekeeping_
> > describing what girls think about Robert Merrill [!]. It was well and
> > truly out there before Mailer, Bernstein or Sondheim 'popularized' it.
>
> Couldn't resist adding a few more of these, thanks to ProQuest. as
> some of them are quite interesting in themselves. Mainly I was
> searching "real cool" as a way of getting past all the uses of "cool"
> in other senses. But I found a few others using different strategies.
> So: Pre-1957 "cool" as general approbative, widely known:

And somehow the fact that the term existed before 1956 is supposed to
refute the suggestion that it's more likely that Mailer learned it
from the NYC hipster crowd around Bernstein et al., than vice versa?

Do you imagine that either possibility precludes their having learned
it independently?

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 2, 6:41 pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <a9631c1f-d9cf-4905-9340-9556ce37b...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>

> Did he have any evidence to this?

I don't remember any.

> The time period between "late 60's"
> and "Happy Days" (Jan 1974) is very short. I would say it is far too
> short to track any sort of change in a word that common.

The revival wouldn't have started right away.

> > I did have that impression once in a while, though my experience was
> > rather similar to his.  Ben Zimmer said there was good lexicographical
> > evidence that that sense of "cool" hadn't disappeared.  I wouldn't be
> > surprised if it did have a dip in popularity, at least in some sizable
> > regions

and

> > circles.
>
> Asking my older siblings (b 1959/1962) they don't recall a lull in the
> usage of cool.
>
> My earliest memory of the word is my sister exclaiming "You look so
> cool!" to my mother after she returned from a trip carrying a guitar.
> This would have been in 1970-71 or so.

Where I was (among mostly white middle-class and upper-middle-class
people in the northeastern quarter of the U.S.), the lull seemed to be
from maybe the mid '70s to the late '80s. I remember being surprised
to hear a college friend use the word in the early '80s (describing a
prep-school teacher who you didn't have to hide your cigarette from).

--
Jerry Friedman

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

I'd say that on this evidence they would certainly have learned it
independently. That would seem to rule out the theory that either
learned it from the other.

[Peter T. Daniels]

> learned it from the other.-

No such theory was offered. The question was posed: Which direction
was more likely?, given the original suggestion (it seems to be from
Don Philipson) that Bernstein/Sondheim could have read it in Mailer.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

OK, if you want, Don Phillipson made a "suggestion" and you made a
counter-"suggestion". I've provided some evidence that suggests that
neither was the case.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <k4f1au$av3$3...@speranza.aioe.org>, "Don Phillipson"

Why are cucumbers considered "cool" and not at ambient tempetature? Are
they chilled as a matter of course?

--
charles

[Peter T. Daniels]

> neither was the case.-

So you have no opinion as to which direction was more likely?

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 3, 5:18 pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <776d88a3-43a3-4ea0-ae64-d6e5146db...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>

>   Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Where I was (among mostly white middle-class and upper-middle-class
> > people in the northeastern quarter of the U.S.), the lull seemed to be
> > from maybe the mid '70s to the late '80s.  I remember being surprised
> > to hear a college friend use the word in the early '80s (describing a
> > prep-school teacher who you didn't have to hide your cigarette from).
>

> Now *that* I would believe. There was a definite lull in some of the
> 'old' slang in the early 80s with the sudden emergence of Valley Speak
> and the whole New Wave where people were trying out all sorts of new
> words (none of which stuck). Tubular, Righteous, Rad, and Gnarly are
> some that come to mind. Seeing Valley Girl or Fast Times and Ridgemont
> High would cover a lot of this slang.

My lull started before that--when my friend said "We knew he was cool"
in maybe 1981 or '82, "Valley Girl" hadn't been recorded and my
friends and I were blissfully untouched by /Fast Times at Ridgemont
High/.

I still hear "gnarly" once in a while. I went rafting in August, and
as we took the bus to the put-in site, two teenage brothers were
talking loudly about looking forward to some "sweet gnar". That's my
spelling, but I think I guessed right.

I didn't notice "righteous" meaning "excellent" getting any more
popular in the '80s than it had been.

--
Jerry Friedman

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No. It's just too counter-factual. I'm not much good at alternative-
history.

[pauljk]

"Charles Bishop" <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ctbishop-031...@global-66-81-244-86.dialup.o1.com...

Good question.

Having been kept for a while in an open room, the cucumbers,
of course, stabilize at the room temperature. The only way
how they could possibly keep themselves at a lower
temperature would be by constant evaporation of internal
water. However, their skin is waxy, near impervious to water,
so that is not the case.

Their skin and water inside are reasonable good conductors
of heat (comparing to, say, paper or wood). The skin is thin
and the water inside has high specific heat, which means that
small quantities of water can absorb a lot of heat energy
to heat up. For these reason the cucumbers feel cool to touch
by quickly absorbing heat from the tips of our fingers.

If you had a cucumber in a room heated to over 37C,
it would feel hotter than the room temperature.

pjk

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 17:42:40 +1300, "pauljk" <paul....@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:

Yes.

I've just tested the relatives coolness of a couple of things when put
in my mouth. They were both at ambient temperature having been on my
bedside cabinet for hours. First I touched the body of a ballpoint pen
on my tongue, then after a delay I sipped some water. The water was
noticeably cooler than the pen. This, as you indicate, was due to the
water was better at conducting heat from the tongue than was the pen.

Strictly speaking I think we should say that water, or a cucumber, is
better at cooling rather than cooler. Because the water is better at
absorbing heat than the pen it will actually have been warmer than the
pen after contact with the tongue.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Tak To]

Water at ambient temperature still feels cool.

Something is cool to the touch if (1) it conducts heat
well (and thus conducts heat away from your body); and
(2) it has sufficient heat capacity so that it won't be
heat up by your body heat.

Ambient temperature is considerably lower than your
body temperature (37C/98.6F). One does not feel cool
at 20C/68F only because air is not a good conductor.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[pauljk]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:22uq68h50qemgjve6...@4ax.com...

Exactly.
When we touch a cucumber, all our sense of touch can tell
our brain is that something is smooth and "feels cool".
If we don't look at it, we can't tell the difference between cold
wood or room temperature cucumber. Marble or metal baton
would feel even cooler.

Without good experience with different materials and seeing what
we are touching, we are not very good at judging actual
temperature of objects.
However, we are quite good at determining if a child is running
even a slightly raised temperature. That is because we expect
the child be of the same temperature as our body, so even
a slight difference is noticeable.

pjk