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Kindertotenlieder
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benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 12, 2012, 3:24:28 PM1/12/12
to
"Kindertotenlieder (Songs on the Death of Children, though more
closely translated as Children's songs about Death)..."
So begins the Wikipedia article on Mahler's song cycle. This proposed
"closer translation" seems to run counter to what the songs are
manifestly about. Is there any linguistic justification for the
parenthetical comment?
closely translated as Children's songs about Death)..."
So begins the Wikipedia article on Mahler's song cycle. This proposed
"closer translation" seems to run counter to what the songs are
manifestly about. Is there any linguistic justification for the
parenthetical comment?
Adam Funk
Jan 12, 2012, 3:35:37 PM1/12/12
to
"Country Death Song" (by the Violent Femmes), which I suppose could be
parsed a few ways.
--
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Christian Weisgerber
Jan 12, 2012, 5:37:20 PM1/12/12
to
As in English, there is no fixed rule how to interpret the relationship
between those nouns. "Totenlied" is more or less a fixed term, but
whether it's laments about dead children or laments performed by
children is not clear without context.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 12, 2012, 8:23:57 PM1/12/12
to
On Jan 13, 11:37 am, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
Thanks. So if "Totenlied" is a conventional term, it could be read as
"death-songs (about) children", which would be appropriate. But the
parenthesist's translation implies that the songs are sung by children
-- which, though theoretically possible, is clearly wrong in this
context.
"death-songs (about) children", which would be appropriate. But the
parenthesist's translation implies that the songs are sung by children
-- which, though theoretically possible, is clearly wrong in this
context.
Joachim Pense
Jan 13, 2012, 12:04:21 PM1/13/12
to
Compounded by "Kinder-". It could mean "songs of the dead, to be sung by
children", "songs of the dead, specifically children". The latter one
happens to be the right one in this case.
Joachim
Hans Aberg
Jan 13, 2012, 2:13:06 PM1/13/12
to
songs (laments) about children.
Hans
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 13, 2012, 3:45:38 PM1/13/12
to
On Jan 13, 2:13 pm, Hans Aberg <haberg-n...@telia.com> wrote:
> On 2012/01/13 18:04, Joachim Pense wrote:
>
> On 2012/01/13 18:04, Joachim Pense wrote:
>
> > Am 12.01.2012 21:24, schrieb benli...@ihug.co.nz:
> >> "Kindertotenlieder (Songs on the Death of Children, though more
> >> closely translated as Children's songs about Death)..."
>
> >> So begins the Wikipedia article on Mahler's song cycle. This proposed
> >> "closer translation" seems to run counter to what the songs are
> >> manifestly about. Is there any linguistic justification for the
> >> parenthetical comment?
>
> > Literally, it's "Totenlieder" (songs of the dead, not about Death),
> > Compounded by "Kinder-". It could mean "songs of the dead, to be sung by
> > children", "songs of the dead, specifically children". The latter one
> > happens to be the right one in this case.
>
> My Swedish encyclopedia translates it as "sorgesånger om barn" or death
> songs (laments) about children.
It may be helpful to distinguish what Mahler meant by the title, and
> >> "Kindertotenlieder (Songs on the Death of Children, though more
> >> closely translated as Children's songs about Death)..."
>
> >> So begins the Wikipedia article on Mahler's song cycle. This proposed
> >> "closer translation" seems to run counter to what the songs are
> >> manifestly about. Is there any linguistic justification for the
> >> parenthetical comment?
>
> > Literally, it's "Totenlieder" (songs of the dead, not about Death),
> > Compounded by "Kinder-". It could mean "songs of the dead, to be sung by
> > children", "songs of the dead, specifically children". The latter one
> > happens to be the right one in this case.
>
> My Swedish encyclopedia translates it as "sorgesånger om barn" or death
> songs (laments) about children.
what Rueckert had meant many years earlier. Friedrich Rueckert is
basically forgotten except that some of the greatest song composers
set some of his poems. (Usually indifferent poems make better song
texts than great poems.) According to Edward F. Kravitt, *The Lied:
Mirror of Late Romanticism* (Yale UP, 1996), "In the 428 poems he
called _Kndertotenlieder_, Rueckert recorded his experiences during
the illness and subsequent death of his children, Luise (1830-33) and
his beloved Ernst (1829-34)." Mahler chose 1% of them.
Joachim Pense
Jan 13, 2012, 3:59:57 PM1/13/12
to
Am 13.01.2012 21:45, schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>
> It may be helpful to distinguish what Mahler meant by the title, and
> what Rueckert had meant many years earlier. Friedrich Rueckert is
> basically forgotten except that some of the greatest song composers
> set some of his poems. (Usually indifferent poems make better song
> texts than great poems.) According to Edward F. Kravitt, *The Lied:
> Mirror of Late Romanticism* (Yale UP, 1996), "In the 428 poems he
> called _Kndertotenlieder_, Rueckert recorded his experiences during
> the illness and subsequent death of his children, Luise (1830-33) and
> his beloved Ernst (1829-34)." Mahler chose 1% of them.
R�ckert was known to be extremely prolific, and they say that the
>
> It may be helpful to distinguish what Mahler meant by the title, and
> what Rueckert had meant many years earlier. Friedrich Rueckert is
> basically forgotten except that some of the greatest song composers
> set some of his poems. (Usually indifferent poems make better song
> texts than great poems.) According to Edward F. Kravitt, *The Lied:
> Mirror of Late Romanticism* (Yale UP, 1996), "In the 428 poems he
> called _Kndertotenlieder_, Rueckert recorded his experiences during
> the illness and subsequent death of his children, Luise (1830-33) and
> his beloved Ernst (1829-34)." Mahler chose 1% of them.
greater part of his work is not particularly good.
He was a professor of oriental languages (Arabian, Persian), translated
parts of the Quran as well as some of the gems of Sanskrit literature
(like Nala and Damayanti).
Joachim
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 13, 2012, 5:58:36 PM1/13/12
to
On Jan 14, 6:04 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
I don't know if English can achieve the same ambiguity with this
example, but perhaps "children's death songs" could be interpreted
both ways.
example, but perhaps "children's death songs" could be interpreted
both ways.
Hans Aberg
Jan 13, 2012, 6:21:39 PM1/13/12
to
fever. I forgot to mention that.
> Mahler chose 1% of them.
same proportion from a collection of Swedish folk tunes. That seems to
be a good way to work.
Hans
Curlytop
Jan 24, 2012, 3:56:37 PM1/24/12
to
Hans Aberg set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:
>> Rueckert recorded his experiences during
>> the illness and subsequent death of his children, Luise (1830-33) and
>> his beloved Ernst (1829-34)."
>
> Yes, the WPs says that Friedrich Rückert's children died of scarlet
> fever. I forgot to mention that.
Many of Mahler's own siblings died in childhood, which has led some
commentators to "explain" his fascination with death and the writing of
funeral marches.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly
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continuum:
>> Rueckert recorded his experiences during
>> the illness and subsequent death of his children, Luise (1830-33) and
>> his beloved Ernst (1829-34)."
>
> Yes, the WPs says that Friedrich Rückert's children died of scarlet
> fever. I forgot to mention that.
commentators to "explain" his fascination with death and the writing of
funeral marches.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
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