Pre-islamic 'islam'
António Marques
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
- are there cognates in other AA languages?
Ruud Harmsen
sci.lang:
>We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
>- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
salaam meaning peace is of the same root.
>- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
>to refer to the religion?
>- are there cognates in other AA languages?
Shalom!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
Yusuf B Gursey
> We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
> - was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
> - does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
> to refer to the religion?
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
> - are there cognates in other AA languages?
the root salima "to be safe, sound" is a genuine Arabic word, with
cognates in other but the use of 'aslama ("he submitted", the finite
verbal form of 'isla:m) as a techical religious term is probably
borrowed from Aramaic, acc. Jeffreys "The Foreign Vocabulary of the
Qur'an" p. 62 -63 found online for free:
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/part2.htm
Harlan Messinger
> On Nov 5, 11:16 am, Ant�nio Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
>> - was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
>> - does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
>> to refer to the religion?
>
> the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
> anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
> the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
> as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
> followers are considered "muslims".
Interesting. Then what word is used in Arabic to mean what we mean by
"Muslim"?
António Marques
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
I think you're implying a distinction they don't make.
Yusuf B Gursey
yes. they are considered to be different only in details of religious
law that for some reason God has not seen fit to reveal yet.
Yusuf B Gursey
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself". NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
António Marques
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
> ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
> inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
> to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
> NB islamic tradition
> mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
> contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Well, thank you all for the discussion,
>
> On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
> > ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
> > inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
> > to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
>
> Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
> AA languages?
Hamida (3rd pers. sing. perfect) means in arabic "praise, eulogize,
approve of; commend, laud, extol" Hammada is the intensive form,
"to praise highly (someone)". from the this one has the passive
participle muHammad(un) (the things in paranthesis are the nominal
case endings) "praised, commendable, laudable". from the first form
one has the elative adjective 'aHmad(u) "more (most) laudable, more
(most) commendable". these are arabic dervatives of the verbal forms.
looking for cognates of the roots (verbs) is easier. BDB, the old
etymological dictionary of Biblical Hebrew gives the following
West Semitic cognates: Biblical Hebrew HAmad "desire, take pleasure
in" = Aramaic (not in Syriac) Hămad ; Sabaic <Hmdm> "in gratitude
[praise]".
arab tradition gives muHammad as a pre-islamic proper name.
>
> > NB islamic tradition
> > mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
> > contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
>
> And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
more later.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, thank you all for the discussion,
>
> > On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
> > > ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
> > > inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
> > > to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
>
> > Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
> > AA languages?
>
> Hamida (3rd pers. sing. perfect) means in arabic "praise, eulogize,
> approve of; commend, laud, extol" Hammada is the intensive form,
> "to praise highly (someone)". from the this one has the passive
> participle muHammad(un) (the things in paranthesis are the nominal
> case endings) "praised, commendable, laudable". from the first form
> one has the elative adjective 'aHmad(u) "more (most) laudable, more
> (most) commendable". these are arabic dervatives of the verbal forms.
> looking for cognates of the roots (verbs) is easier. BDB, the old
> etymological dictionary of Biblical Hebrew gives the following
> West Semitic cognates: Biblical Hebrew HAmad "desire, take pleasure
> in" = Aramaic (not in Syriac) Hămad ; Sabaic <Hmdm> "in gratitude
> [praise]".
>
> arab tradition gives muHammad as a pre-islamic proper name.
>
from Enc. of Islam II "Muhammad"
<<
Muhammad , the Prophet of Islam .
...
The name “Muh.ammad” is reported to have occurred previously among the
Arabs (e.g. Ibn Durayd, ed. Wüstenfeld, 6 f.; Ibn Sa`d, i/1, 111 f.)
and therefore need not be regarded as an epithet adopted later in life
by the Prophet. It should be noted, however, that the brief section on
such persons given by Ibn Saʿd has the heading, “Account of those who
were named Muh.ammad in the days of the dja:hiliyya [q.v.] in the hope
of being called to prophethood which had been predicted”, which
indicates the tendentious nature of some of these accounts. The fact
that the sources say frequently that in his youth Muh.ammad was called
Ami:n, a common Arab name meaning “faithful, trustworthy”, suggests
the possibility that this could have been his given name, a masculine
form from the same root as his mother's name, A:mina. The name
Muh.ammada for women occurs several times in the Syrian Book of the
Himyarites.
>>
also there is an inscription in a grotto in the Hijaz saying "I am
Muhmmad b. Abdullah" (without any epithets), the second in a list of
names, the first being an unknown personage (probably the scribe),
along with Muhammad's followers, in a place where they have been said
to have taken refuge during battle. the suthenticity of the
inscription was not challenged in a scholarly journal.
Yusuf B Gursey
actually, it is usually regarded as a dimunitiveof maslama(t) , but
that is of the same root.
from Enc. of Islam II "Musaylima"
<<
Musaylima b. H.abi:b, Abu: Thuma:ma , a man of Banu: H.ani:fa who
lived al-Yama:ma and led a large section of his tribe in revolt during
the wars of the ridda [q.v.].
The suggestion of some European scholars (as in the article in EI 1)
that Musaylima is a contemptuous diminutive of Maslama appears to be
mistaken. Because he claimed to be a prophet he is often called al-
Kadhdha:b, the liar or false prophet.
...
About the end of the year 10 (beginning of 632) Musaylima is said to
have written a letter to Muh.ammad suggesting some division of spheres
of authority, but the suggestion was rebuffed by Muh.ammad. His
following among Banu: H.ani:fa increased greatly after Muh.ammad's
death, and he was felt to be a serious threat to the nascent Islamic
state. Abu: Bakr therefore sent a large army against him under Kha:lid
b. al-Wali:d. A fierce battle took place at al-`Ak.raba:' [q.v.] with
its centre in a walled garden or orchard (h.adi:k.a), which came to be
known as “the garden of death” because of the numbers on both sides
killed there. The Muslims were victorious, but lost many k.urra:' or
K.ur'a:n-reciters. Responsibility for the death of Musaylima was
claimed by various men, including Wah.shi:, the Abyssinian slave who
had killed H.amza. Shortly before this battle Musaylima is said to
have married Sadja:h. [q.v.], the prophetess of the tribe of Tami:m.
W.G. Palgrave, travelling in Nadjd in 1862, found Musaylima regarded
as a prophet, and people quoted what Palgrave calls “burlesque
imitations” of the K.ur'a:n, though he does not reproduce any.
...
W.G. Palgrave, Narrative of a year's journey through Central and
Eastern Arabia, London 1865, i, 382.
...
(W. Montgomery Watt)
Yusuf B Gursey
> from Enc. of Islam II "Muhammad"
by Assia Maria Harwazinski
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well, thank you all for the discussion,
>
> > On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > > NB islamic tradition
> > > mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
> > > contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
>
> > And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
>
> actually, it is usually regarded as a dimunitiveof maslama(t) , but
> that is of the same root.
from Encyclopedia of the Qur'an "Musaylima"
<<
Musaylima
Musaylima b. Thuma:ma b. Kabi:r b. H.abi:b b. al-H.a:rith b. `Abd al-
H.a:rith, a leader of the Banu: H.ani:fa and rival of the Prophet.
Muslim sources derisively nickname him “Musaylima the liar” (al-
kadhdha:b, see lie ). Musaylima is a diminutive form of Maslama; this
can be deduced from a verse of `Uma:ra b. `Ukayl (Mubarrad, Ka:mil,
iii, 26).
...
The belief in the prophethood of Musaylima survived among his
believers in the first decades of Islam. His adherents used to gather
in the mosque of the Banu: Hani:fa in Ku:fa and the call la: ila:ha
illa: lla:h wa-Musaylima rasu:lu lla:h was heard from the minaret.
`Abdalla:h b. Mas`u:d ordered the detention of the followers of
Musaylima. Some repented and were released. Those who clung to their
faith were executed.
M.J. Kister
>>
Yusuf B Gursey
the inscriptions are to be found at (the most relevant one is the
second)
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html
the journal references are:
[1] M. Hamidullah, "Some Arabic Inscriptions Of Medinah Of The Early
Years Of Hijrah", Islamic Culture, 1939, Volume XIII, p. 438.
[2] G. C. Miles, "Early Islamic Inscriptions Near Ta'if In The Hijaz",
Journal Of Near Eastern Studies, 1948, Volume VII, p. 240.
[3] Y. H. Safadi, Islamic Calligraphy, 1979, Shambhala Publications,
Inc.: Boulder (Colorado), p. 15.
[4] A. Grohmann, "The Problem Of Dating Early Qur'ans", Der Islam,
1958, p. 221.
DKleinecke
Does Kister indicate where he got that story? I don't find it in al-
Tabari.
Yusuf B Gursey
here is the complete list of references and it includes Tabari:
<<
Bibliography
Ibn Hisha:m , 312-13, 566, 945-6, 964-5
Wa:k.idi:, ed. Jones, 82, 269, 286-7, 863
Bala:dhuri:, 86
Ṭabari:, i, 1560, 1737-9, 1748-50, 1795-8, 1871, 1880, 1915-21,
1929-57
Ibn K.utayba, Ma`a:rif , 206
Ibn Sa`d, i/1, 88, 108, i/2, 18, 55
J. Wellhausen, Skizzen und Vorarbeiten, iv, 102, 115, 167-7; vi, 15-19
Caetani, Annali dell' Islam , ii, 450-1, 635-48, 727-38
W.M. Watt, Muhammad at Medina , Oxford 1956, 132-7
D.S. Margoliouth, in JRAS (1903), 485 ff.
C.J. Lyall, in ibid., 771-8
W.G. Palgrave, Narrative of a year's journey through Central and
Eastern Arabia, London 1865, i, 382.
>>
(the last one I had posted in connection with survivals of verses
attributed to Musaylima amongst 19th. cent. Nejdi Bedouin)
for example, I have Ibn Hisham 964-965
"The Liars Musaylima al-H.anafi: and al-Aswad al`Ansi:" and
"Musaylima's :atter and the Apostole's Answer Thereto"
("The Farwell Pilgrimage" follows the last one). al-Aswad al`Ansi was
another "false" prophet in Yemen.
on p. 648 - 649 of
Author: Ibn Hisha:m, `Abd al-Malik, d. 834.
Title: The life of Muhammad : a translation of Ish.̣a:q’s Si:rat
rasu:l Alla:h / with introd. and notes by A. Guillaume.
Published: Karachi ; New York, Oxford University Press 1967.
Description: xlvii, 813, [3] p. 21 cm.
Yusuf B Gursey
sorry, I thought you meant the Enc. of Islam II article. the above
references are for Enc. of Islam II article, not that of Kister in
Enc. of the Qur'an
Yusuf B Gursey
Here is the bibliography of Kister in Encyclopedia of the Qur'an
"Musaylima"
I quoted the passage directly and there is no mention from which
source he got the last story.
Bibliography
Primary:
al-Balādhurī, Ah.mad b. Yah.yā b. Jābir, Futūh. al-buldān, ed. ʿA.
Anīs al-T.abbā` and `U. Anīs al-Tabbā`, Beirut 1958, 119-20
al-Bayhaqī, Abū Bakr Ah.mad b. al-Ḥusayn, Dalā'il al-nubuwwa, ed. `A.
al-Qal`ajī, 7 vols., Beirut 1985, iv, 79; v, 330
al-Bayhaqī, Ibrāhīm b. Muh.ammad, al-Mah.āsin wa-l-masāwi', ed. M. Abū
l-Fad.l Ibrāhīm, 2 vols., Cairo 1961, i, 49
al-Diyārbakrī, H.usayn b. Muh.ammad, Ta'rīkh al-khamīs, 2 vols. in 1,
Cairo 1283, repr. Beirut, ii, 157
Ibn `Abd al-Barr al-Namarī, al-Durar fī ikhtis.ār al-maghāzī wa-l-
siyar, ed. Sh. D.ayf, Cairo 1966, 270
Ibn H.ubaysh, `Abd al-Raḥmān b. Muḥammad, al-Ghazawāt, ed. S. Zakkār,
Beirut 1992
Ibn Sa`d, Ṭabaqāt, Beirut 1957, v, 550
al-Kalā`ī, Abū l-Rabīʿ Sulaymān b. Mūsā, al-Iktifā' fī maghāzī rasūl
Allāh wa-l-thalāta al-khulafā', ed. M. ʿAbd al-Wāḥid, 2 vols., Cairo
1970, ii, 435
al-Kalbī, Hishām b. Muḥammad b. al-Sā'ib, Jamharat al-nasab, ed. N.
Ḥasan, Beirut 1986, 543
al-Maqrīzī, Taqī l-Dīn Abū l-`Abbās Ah.mad b. `Alī, Imtā' al-asmā',
ed. M.M. Shākir, Cairo 1941, 508-9
ed. M.A. al-Nāmisī, 15 vols., Beirut 1999, ii, 100-1
Muqātil, Tafsīr, ii, 555
al-Nuwayrī, Ah.mad b. ʿAbd al-Wahhāb, Nihāyat al-arab fī funūn al-
adab, 31 vols., Cairo 1964-92, xix (1975; ed. M. Ibrāhīm), 85-7
Suhaylī, al-Rawḍ al-unuf, ed. ʿA. al-Wakīl, 7 vols., Cairo 1969, iv,
38-9
T.abarī, Ta'rīkh, ed. Cairo, iii, 276-300
al-Wāqidī, Kitāb al-Ridda, ed. M. Ḥamīdullah, Paris 1989, index
DKleinecke
Thank you. I will, of course, not be able to see most of these
references because I do not have easy access to a big enough library.
I might mention that my interest is not in Musaylima but in Abdullah
ibn Mas'ud. If I ever need that story I guess I will have to reference
Kister. IMHO lousy scholarship.
Yusuf B Gursey
> W.G. Palgrave, travelling in Nadjd in 1862, found Musaylima regarded
> as a prophet, and people quoted what Palgrave calls “burlesque
> imitations” of the K.ur'a:n, though he does not reproduce any.
>
apparently there was a tradition of the sayings of Musaylima preserved
in Arabic Literature as well. from Enc. of Islam I "Musailima" (the
article by F. Buhl contends, following D. S. Margoliouth that
Muhammad was influenced by Musaylima, rather than meeting him later in
life):
<<
... It is also worthy of note that the prophetic utterances attributed
to Musailima recall the earliest Mecca:n su-ras with their short
rhyming sentences and curious oaths and have no resemblence at all to
the Medi:nese su:ras. ... It is interesting that Palgrave on his
journey into Nadjd found a number of sayings still current under
Musailima's name; unfortunately he did not trouble to record them so
that we cannot compare them with what is reocrded of his utterances in
literature. ...
Yusuf B Gursey
should be "Encyclopaedia"
> "Musaylima"
> I quoted the passage directly and there is no mention from which
> source he got the last story.
>
> Bibliography
> Primary:
Secondary:
V.V. Barthold, Musaylima, in id., Sočineniya, 10 vols., Moscow
1963-73, vi, 549-74
D. Eickelmann, Musaylima.
An approach to the social anthropology of seventh century Arabia, in
jesho 10 (1967), 17-52
V. Vacca, Sadjāḥ, in ei 2, viii, 738-9
W.M. Watt, Musaylima, in ei 2, vii, 664-5
Yusuf B Gursey
should be "Encyclopaedia"
> > "Musaylima"
> > I quoted the passage directly and there is no mention from which
> > source he got the last story.
>
> > Bibliography
> > Primary:
...
>
> Thank you. I will, of course, not be able to see most of these
> references because I do not have easy access to a big enough library.
>
> I might mention that my interest is not in Musaylima but in Abdullah
> ibn Mas'ud. If I ever need that story I guess I will have to reference
> Kister. IMHO lousy scholarship.
Enc. of the Qur'an is less detailed referenced than Enc. of Islam
BTW then you might need this:
[Print Version: Volume 3, page 460, column 2]
Citation:
Kister, M.J. "Musaylima." Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān. General Editor:
Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Georgetown University, Washington DC. Brill,
2009.
DKleinecke
I just found the hadith I was asking about in the Wikipedia article on
Musaylima. There is a reference there to #1187 in some collection.
Unfortunately the collection named is only given in what appears to
Telugu. This in the English Wikipedia.
Could somebody look at the article in the Wikipedia and verify what I
saw and, I hope, tell me what the Telugu (?) says?
I don't expect perfection from the Wikipedia but this is going too far.
Peter T. Daniels
It is Telugu, and if you click on it, it takes you to a google page
with lots of results, including some in the Telugu wikipedia.
DKleinecke
How did you do that?
There are no links that I can discover.
I did discover the hadith in question is in Sunan Abu Daud (as 2756 in
the edition I have). I still need the isnad to complete my research
and my Abu Daud is an English Translation so it looks like I am going
to have to find an Arabic version.
Peter T. Daniels
I hovered over the Telugu word and a square icon appeared next to it,
so I clicked it.
> There are no links that I can discover.
>
> I did discover the hadith in question is in Sunan Abu Daud (as 2756 in
> the edition I have). I still need the isnad to complete my research
> and my Abu Daud is an English Translation so it looks like I am going
> to have to find an Arabic version.-
I know nothing about hadith. I don't even know the plural -- huduth?
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:4842cd76-4322-45f6...@o31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[...]
> I know nothing about hadith. I don't even know the plural
> -- huduth?
It seems to be <aHadi:th>. (The English plurals are
<hadith> and <hadiths>.)
Brian
alan
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:aakhxifm1kg5.16...@40tude.net...
Actually, it's aHa:di:th (أحاديث)
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:37:08 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <news:4842cd76-4322-45f6...@o31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > I know nothing about hadith. I don't even know the plural
> > -- huduth?
>
> It seems to be <aHadi:th>. (The English plurals are
> <hadith> and <hadiths>.)
>
> Brian
it's useful to know the arabic plural because some pedantic muslims
use it in english sentences.
Yusuf B Gursey
I found the english version online here:
<<
http://www.islam.us/hadith/abudawud/014.sat.html
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Book 14, Number 2755:
Narrated Nu'aym ibn Mas'ud:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say when he read the
letter of Musaylimah: What do you believe yourselves? They said: We
believe as he believes. He said: I swear by Allah that were it not
that messengers are not killed, I would cut off your heads.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 14, Number 2756:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
Harithah ibn Mudarrib said that he came to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and
said (to him): There is no enmity between me and any of the Arabs. I
passed a mosque of Banu Hanifah. They (the people) believed in
Musaylimah. Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud) sent for them. They were brought,
and he asked them to repent, except Ibn an-Nawwahah. He said to him: I
heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: Were it not that
you were not a messenger, I would behead you. But today you are not a
messenger. He then ordered Qarazah ibn Ka'b (to kill him). He beheaded
him in the market. Anyone who wants to see Ibn an-Nawwahah slain in
the market (he may see him).
>>
my library has the arabic version of the collection, but as yet I have
not found what you are looking for. I'll keep you posted when I do.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Book 14, Number 2756:
> Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
>
> Harithah ibn Mudarrib said that he came to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and
> said (to him): There is no enmity between me and any of the Arabs. I
> passed a mosque of Banu Hanifah. They (the people) believed in
> Musaylimah. Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud) sent for them. They were brought,
> and he asked them to repent, except Ibn an-Nawwahah. He said to him: I
> heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: Were it not that
> you were not a messenger, I would behead you. But today you are not a
> messenger. He then ordered Qarazah ibn Ka'b (to kill him). He beheaded
> him in the market. Anyone who wants to see Ibn an-Nawwahah slain in
> the market (he may see him).
>
> >>
>
> my library has the arabic version of the collection, but as yet I have
> not found what you are looking for. I'll keep you posted when I do.
here is the arabic of the Kitabu~l-jiha:d where the Hadith is supposed
to be, but I couldn't find the above in the number given in the
english version:
DKleinecke
The printed editions of the Arabic classics are a mess. Every edition
seems to use a different counting method. My Dar as-Salam Arabic
Sahih Muslim has three different numerations of hadiths and chapters
(babs) and its list of books is different than in the Englist online
translation which has a fourth version of hadith and bab numbering.
Obviously numbering is a recent (last century or less) innovation. I
would guess that Muslim himself made no division in the text smaller
than books. I think al-Bukhari must have some chapter division in mind
(not necessarily what we see in modern copies). The substructure in
the Muwatta is easy to detect. I haven't studied the other collections
enough to have an opinion about them.
What we need is variorum editions of the classics - even of the
Qur'an. At the moment I am unsure whether we even know how many
manuscripts of something like Sahih Mulsim exist much less which were
copied from which.
Probably not in my lifetime.
DKleinecke
I hovered and I hovered and I hovered.
Nothing happened.
I am using Firefox 3.5.5 on an Ubuntu Linux machine. That suggest
anything?
Hadith is one of those words. It may not have made the dictionaries
yet but it's part of English now and the English plural is hadiths.
Some old-fashioned people use the Arabic broken plural.
You'll recognize it if you see it.
António Marques
DKleinecke
In case anybody is following this discussion the story is in al-
Baladhuri as well as Abu Daud. But al-Baladhuri has only one messenger
from Musaylima so he is following a different tradition. Al-Baladhuri
has it that Abdullah ibn Masud was qadi (judge) as well as treasurer
in Kufa. That legitimizes the hadith because if Ibn Masud had only
been treasurer (as al-Tabari has it) he would not be executing anyone.
The whole thrust of these stories seems to be how to treat messengers
and Musaylima's involvement is incidental.
Now it is time for me to edit the Wikipedia to remove the Telugu. Do I
use al-Baladhuri or Abu Daud?
Yusuf B Gursey
> > Book 14, Number 2756:
> > Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
>
> > Harithah ibn Mudarrib said that he came to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and
> > said (to him): There is no enmity between me and any of the Arabs. I
> > passed a mosque of Banu Hanifah. They (the people) believed in
> > Musaylimah. Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud) sent for them. They were brought,
> > and he asked them to repent, except Ibn an-Nawwahah. He said to him: I
> > heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: Were it not that
> > you were not a messenger, I would behead you. But today you are not a
> > messenger. He then ordered Qarazah ibn Ka'b (to kill him). He beheaded
> > him in the market. Anyone who wants to see Ibn an-Nawwahah slain in
> > the market (he may see him).
>
> > >>
>
> > my library has the arabic version of the collection, but as yet I have
> > not found what you are looking for. I'll keep you posted when I do.
>
> In case anybody is following this discussion the story is in al-
> Baladhuri as well as Abu Daud. But al-Baladhuri has only one messenger
> from Musaylima so he is following a different tradition. Al-Baladhuri
> has it that Abdullah ibn Masud was qadi (judge) as well as treasurer
> in Kufa. That legitimizes the hadith because if Ibn Masud had only
> been treasurer (as al-Tabari has it) he would not be executing anyone.
> The whole thrust of these stories seems to be how to treat messengers
> and Musaylima's involvement is incidental.
>
> Now it is time for me to edit the Wikipedia to remove the Telugu. Do I
> use al-Baladhuri or Abu Daud?
you made a strong case for al-Baladhuri. though the tradionalists may
still prefer Abu Daud, as his main thrust is more theological. I'd go
for al-Bladhuri base don what you told me.