Sportscasters
luvs...@my-deja.com
Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
"shhhhtrike???"
(and "straight" as "shhhtraight, " etc.)
I assume there is some famous sportscaster who does this and they,
unable to come up with something intelligent or creative to say, resort
to copying the mis-pronunciations of some famous person, to convinvce
themselves they're talented, too.
BUT, I could be wrong.
A regional thing? An incredible coincidence?
Thanks for your help.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Paul Davidson
--
Paul Davidson
<luvs...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7pfsq3$20r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Steven H. Mesnick
> Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> "shhhhtrike???"
Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
"comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
Grrrr...
Steve Mesnick
-----------------------------------
The preceding was my opinion. If this had
been an actual Divine Proclamation,
it would have been preceded by a
bolt of lightning and the aroma of
frankincense.
-----------------------------------
Joseph C Fineman
probably explained the general bizarreness of sportswriters &
sportscasters alike:
...Games and constests are exciting to take part in, interesting or
even exciting also to watch, but essentially (i.e. as bare facts)
dull to read about. Such a writer..., conscious that his matter and
his audience are both dull enough to require enlivening, thinks the
needed fillip may be given if he....
_MEU_ s.v. sobriquet
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Sometimes I don't know where my last meal is going to. :||
Peter T. Daniels
>
> > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> > "shhhhtrike???"
>
> Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
> that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
> RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
> "comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
> streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
A comebacker is usually a line drive hit directly to the pitcher.
And the plural of RBI is "ribbies." (20+ years of Harry Caray, first
with the Sox [I lived on the South Side for a while], mostly with the
Cubs.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter Moylan
>
>> Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
>> "shhhhtrike???"
>
>Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
>that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
>RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
>"comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
>streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
Lately I've been hearing that "favouritism" is what a team has if
most people think it's going to win. I keep meaning to write a
letter about it, but I'm not certain that the guilty party can read.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
Mike Wright
>
> In article <37BC7B75...@pobox.com>, posted on
> Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:47:33 -0400,> SM> > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> SM> > "shhhhtrike???"
> SM>
> SM> Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
> SM> that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
> SM> RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
> SM> "comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
> SM> streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
> SM>
> SM> Grrrr...
>
> What's wrong with it? If you spell out the plural, would you
> say Run Batted Ins or Runs Batted In?
I don't speak baseballese, but it appears that "RBI" has become a word to some
folks. Do the people who say "RBIs" also say things like "He RBIed"? This seems
comparatively rare with abbreviations that are not acronymns, but I've seen
"ETAs" and "CQed".
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Joseph C Fineman
>In article <37BC7B75...@pobox.com>, posted on
> Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:47:33 -0400,
> "Steven H. Mesnick" <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>SM> Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
>SM> that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more
>SM> common RBI's. He's very strict about that.
> What's wrong with it? If you spell out the plural, would you say
> Run Batted Ins or Runs Batted In?
You & the sportscaster have strict logic on your side, but not common
usage or, IMO, the reader/listener's best interest. It is convenient
to have some explicit sign of whether the singular or the plural is
meant, just as it is when words are used. RsBI would be pedantic to
the point of bizarreness; RBI will cause most people to blink when
used with a plural verb; RBIs is the usual & the sensible form.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: It is tasteless to recommend one's own taste, but scarcely :||
||: honest to recommend any other. :||
Harlan Messinger
>In article <37BC7B75...@pobox.com>, posted on
> Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:47:33 -0400,
> "Steven H. Mesnick" <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>SM> > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
>SM> > "shhhhtrike???"
>SM>
>SM> Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
>SM> that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
>SM> RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
>SM> "comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
>SM> streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
>SM>
>SM> Grrrr...
>
> What's wrong with it? If you spell out the plural, would you
> say Run Batted Ins or Runs Batted In?
>
Doesn't matter. What's called for is the plural of the acronym, not
the acronym of the plural.
--
Harlan Messinger
There are no Zs in my actual e-mail address.
Peter T. Daniels
> I don't speak baseballese, but it appears that "RBI" has become a word to some
> folks. Do the people who say "RBIs" also say things like "He RBIed"? This seems
> comparatively rare with abbreviations that are not acronymns, but I've seen
> "ETAs" and "CQed".
No, they don't say "He ribbied." Nor do they say "He ERAed" or "He
BAed." They don't even say "He batted in a run"; the expression is "He
drove in a run."
Brian M. Scott
> $news$005$@alquds.demon.co.uk (Shakib Otaqui) wrote:
> >In article <37BC7B75...@pobox.com>
> > "Steven H. Mesnick" <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >SM> > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> >SM> > "shhhhtrike???"
> >SM> Sportscasters are an odd bunch. There is one locally who insists
> >SM> that the plural of RBI (run batted-in) is RBI, not the more common
> >SM> RBI's. He's very strict about that. But then he uses words like
> >SM> "comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
> >SM> streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
> >SM> Grrrr...
> > What's wrong with it? If you spell out the plural, would you
> > say Run Batted Ins or Runs Batted In?
> Doesn't matter. What's called for is the plural of the acronym, not
> the acronym of the plural.
For many years I dealt with something called a Letter of Intent,
generally known as an LoI. It was mildly amusing to see who wrote
'LoIs' and who wrote 'LsoI' for the plural. (I *said* 'ell-oh-eyes' but
- predictably! - wrote 'LsoI'.)
Brian M. Scott
Larry Phillips
>
> No, they don't say "He ribbied." Nor do they say "He ERAed" or "He
> BAed." They don't even say "He batted in a run"; the expression is "He
> drove in a run."
Sorry Peter, but you are just flat wrong in this case. Perhaps
sportscasters you have heard do not say it, but I have heard the phrase
"he RBI'd" (he are bee eyed, not "he ribbied"). I have also heard
"batted in a run", and a host of other abominations, not all related
to "RBI".
--
I want to die quietly in my sleep, like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
Steven H. Mesnick
> > SM> "comebacking", as in "The Red Sox broke out of their losing
> > SM> streak with a comebacking win against the Yankees..."
> > SM>
> > SM> Grrrr...
> >
> > What's wrong with it? If you spell out the plural, would you
> > say Run Batted Ins or Runs Batted In?
As has been pointed out, among baseball fans, "RBI" is
a word, and so the plural is naturally RBI's ("are-bee-eyes").
It would be *far* too...pedantic, I suppose...to say,
"R's BI".
Look at it this way. When you speak of twenty
members of Parliament, do you say
"twenty MP" or "twenty M's P" or twenty M's of P"
or "twenty MP's". Right. So why not "RBI's"?
Steve Mesnick
--
-----------------------------------------
The preceding was my opinion. If this had
been an actual Divine Proclamation,
it would have been preceded by a
bolt of lightning and the aroma of
frankincense.
-----------------------------------------
Harlan Messinger
>
>Doesn't matter. What's called for is the plural of the acronym, not
>the acronym of the plural.
I thought I'd provide some support for my position. I can't think of
any real-world examples at the moment to make this point, so just
suppose that the acronym "UPC" had been coined some years ago for the
expression "underprivileged child", and that this acronym has come to
be commonly used for that concept. If I were to have reason to refer
to any half dozen of these deprived minors, would I say "six UPCren"?
No, I don't think so. One pluralizes the acronym. It would be "six
UPCs".
Mark Brader
> I can't think of any real-world examples at the moment to make this
> point, so just suppose that the acronym "UPC" had been coined some
> years ago for the expression "underprivileged child", and that this
For some reason this reminds me of an episode of "Yes, (Prime) Minister"
where, if I recall correctly, Sir Humphrey tries to drown Hacker in an
alphabet soup of acronyms, and Hacker retailates by inventing on the
spot the term "TPLAC".
Tin-Pot Little African Country.
--
Mark Brader | "After all, it is necessary to get behind
Toronto | someone before you can stab them in the back."
msbr...@interlog.com | -- Lynn & Jay, "Yes, Prime Minister"
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Golgo13
> zzzhme...@erols.com (Harlan Messinger) wrote:
>
> >
> >Doesn't matter. What's called for is the plural of the acronym, not
> >the acronym of the plural.
>
> I thought I'd provide some support for my position. I can't think of
> any real-world examples at the moment to make this point, so just
> suppose that the acronym "UPC" had been coined some years ago for the
> expression "underprivileged child", and that this acronym has come to
> be commonly used for that concept. If I were to have reason to refer
> to any half dozen of these deprived minors, would I say "six UPCren"?
> No, I don't think so. One pluralizes the acronym. It would be "six
> UPCs".
Of course that's right. All the exeptional acronyms work this way.
"RBI" belongs to a class of misfit compound nouns that break the
agreement-in-number requirement. It's toothbrush, not teethbrush, a
six-year-old cat, not a six-years-old one. But: Meals Ready-to-Eat,
Attorneys General, the Brothers Gibb (MREs, AGs, and BeeGees,
respectively).
In this discussion, the crusty old sportscaster who doggedly insists on
"three RBI" is a misguided rebel who makes up his own grammar on the
fly. That he does so is not as objectionable as his insistence that he's
conservatively correct.
DLS
--
D. Sosnoski
gol...@entercomp.com
"When you say the world is composed of nothing but value,
what are you talking about?" - RMP
{O-Grande-Mentecapto}
>This has been bothering me for a l-o-n-g time.
>
>Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
>"shhhhtrike???"
>
> (and "straight" as "shhhtraight, " etc.)
>
>I assume there is some famous sportscaster who does this and they,
>unable to come up with something intelligent or creative to say, resort
>to copying the mis-pronunciations of some famous person, to convinvce
>themselves they're talented, too.
>
>BUT, I could be wrong.
>A regional thing? An incredible coincidence?
>
>Thanks for your help.
That's an interesting point.. In english when we want to emphasize
some word or expression, we raise the tone. "What have *YOU* done for
me?". In latin languages like portuguese, it's common to prolong some
syllables like in this case "shhhhraight", I guess it wouldn't sound
so weird in Portugal or Brazil e.g.
Well, it seems just like a language mix or natural evolution...
Herbert F. W. Stahlke
"Steven H. Mesnick" wrote:
> > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> > "shhhhtrike???"
I've suspected for some time that sportscaster English is
Southern-influenced, and this is the third type of evidence I've seen
for that. What's happening here is perhaps a borrowing from the
Texas-Oklahoma-Kansas region. /s/ retroflexes in most dialects before
/r/, giving us, e.g. "shrimp" but in Louisiana "srimp" because it
doesn't retroflex, but in the central south, it retroflexes more
generally, and in "shtrike" the /r/ retroflexes the /t/ which in turn
retroflexes the /s/.
The other two kinds of evidence, BTW, are the Southern Stress Shift the
stressing of final -el in names. The stress shift is what gives us
GUItar, INsurance, UMbrella, and stress shifted forms are common among
sportscasters. The stressing of final -el in names is a peculiar thing
that's not restricted to sportscasters. The actor Harvey Keitel has a
German name that in English would normally be pronounce KEItel, but I've
commonly heard it as keiTEL. We had a football coach here at Ball State
for a few years in the '80s named Schudel. He was from NW Ohio where
the name was pronounced SCHUdel. When he began to move ahead in a
coaching career, he intentionally changed the pronunciation to schuDEL,
under, I suspect, the influence of sportscaster English.
Herb Stahlke
Ball State University
Richard Fontana
> I've suspected for some time that sportscaster English is
> Southern-influenced, and this is the third type of evidence I've seen
> for that. What's happening here is perhaps a borrowing from the
> Texas-Oklahoma-Kansas region. /s/ retroflexes in most dialects before
> /r/, giving us, e.g. "shrimp" but in Louisiana "srimp" because it
> doesn't retroflex, but in the central south, it retroflexes more
> generally, and in "shtrike" the /r/ retroflexes the /t/ which in turn
> retroflexes the /s/.
>
> The other two kinds of evidence, BTW, are the Southern Stress Shift the
> stressing of final -el in names. The stress shift is what gives us
> GUItar, INsurance, UMbrella, and stress shifted forms are common among
> sportscasters. The stressing of final -el in names is a peculiar thing
> that's not restricted to sportscasters.
> The actor Harvey Keitel has a
> German name that in English would normally be pronounce KEItel, but I've
> commonly heard it as keiTEL. We had a football coach here at Ball State
> for a few years in the '80s named Schudel. He was from NW Ohio where
> the name was pronounced SCHUdel. When he began to move ahead in a
> coaching career, he intentionally changed the pronunciation to schuDEL,
> under, I suspect, the influence of sportscaster English.
I find this last aspect of your argument confusing. You acknowledge
that the stressing of the final syllable of -el names is "not peculiar
to sportscasters", but you suggest that it is due to Southern influence
or sportscaster influence. I disagree strongly. Harvey Keitel is a
bizarre example, since he is not from the South and he is not a sports-
caster. I don't know what you mean when you say that the name "Keitel"
would "normally" be pronounced in English as KEItel. There may be a
very common tendency among American English speakers, regardless of region,
to stress names ending in -tel and -del, at least, on the final syllable.
Perhaps the influence of words like "hotel", "motel", and "cartel" is at
work.
Off the top of my head, the following surnames, borne by non-Southerners
and non-sportscasters I have known, receive stress on the final syllable:
Nadel, Rubel, Gastel, Mostel, Seidel, Dratel
I don't know if there's really any rule at work, because the Sobels I've
known have stressed the first syllable, but then that's -bel and not -tel
or -del.
Consider also "Carmel", which, in many places outside of Indiana, receives
stress on the second syllable; "Intel", which commonly receives stress on
the second syllable, whether or not that represents the 'official'
company pronunciation; and the venerable ice-cream chain "Carvel". If
anything, I'd expect Southerners to tend to pronounce such names with
the stress shifted to the first syllable.
Richard
Steve MacGregor
<<In this discussion, the crusty old sportscaster who doggedly insists on
"three RBI" is a misguided rebel who makes up his own grammar on the fly.>>
If I were that crusty, I would say, "Three Rs.B.I."
--
God grant me the senility to forget the people I don't like,
The good fortune to run into the ones I do,
And the eyesight to tell the difference.
Mike Wright
>
> "Steven H. Mesnick" wrote:
>
> > > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> > > "shhhhtrike???"
>
> Southern-influenced, and this is the third type of evidence I've seen
> for that. What's happening here is perhaps a borrowing from the
> Texas-Oklahoma-Kansas region. /s/ retroflexes in most dialects before
> /r/, giving us, e.g. "shrimp" but in Louisiana "srimp" because it
I'd think that "srimp" might be due to Cajun influence, since most shrimpers in
Louisiana, and even Texas, are Cajuns (or, were when I was growing up).
> doesn't retroflex, but in the central south, it retroflexes more
> generally, and in "shtrike" the /r/ retroflexes the /t/ which in turn
> retroflexes the /s/.
I don't recall ever hearing /S/ for /s/ anywhere in Texas, from the Rio Grande
Valley, to the Gulf Coast, to within walking distance of Oklahoma. On the other
hand, "srimp" sounds kind of natural to me.
I figure them ol' sportscasters maybe took a beer'r two into the booth with'm.
> The other two kinds of evidence, BTW, are the Southern Stress Shift the
> stressing of final -el in names. The stress shift is what gives us
> GUItar, INsurance, UMbrella, and stress shifted forms are common among
> sportscasters. The stressing of final -el in names is a peculiar thing
> that's not restricted to sportscasters. The actor Harvey Keitel has a
> German name that in English would normally be pronounce KEItel, but I've
> commonly heard it as keiTEL. We had a football coach here at Ball State
> for a few years in the '80s named Schudel. He was from NW Ohio where
> the name was pronounced SCHUdel. When he began to move ahead in a
> coaching career, he intentionally changed the pronunciation to schuDEL,
> under, I suspect, the influence of sportscaster English.
I guess you just left out an "and" after "Stress" in the first line?
Is the stressing of the final "-el" in names supposed to be due to Southern
influence, even though it goes against the Southern Stress Shift?
Ralph Jones
>
>
> The other two kinds of evidence, BTW, are the Southern Stress Shift the
> stressing of final -el in names. The stress shift is what gives us
> GUItar, INsurance, UMbrella, and stress shifted forms are common among
> sportscasters. The stressing of final -el in names is a peculiar thing
> that's not restricted to sportscasters. The actor Harvey Keitel has a
> German name that in English would normally be pronounce KEItel, but I've
> commonly heard it as keiTEL. We had a football coach here at Ball State
> for a few years in the '80s named Schudel. He was from NW Ohio where
> the name was pronounced SCHUdel. When he began to move ahead in a
> coaching career, he intentionally changed the pronunciation to schuDEL,
> under, I suspect, the influence of sportscaster English.
Tony DORsett, an All-American running back at The University of
Pennsylvania became Tony DorSETT when he moved south to become a Dallas
Cowboy.
I have never heard a newscaster pronounce Bret Favre's last name as
anything but Farve. In fact, there was a joke made about this particular
mispronunciation in the movie "There's Something About Mary" in which
Favre played himself.
--
The mediocre
Most reliable of all
Always at their best
- rmj http://www.hal-pc.org/~rmjones
Evan Kirshenbaum
> And the plural of RBI is "ribbies." (20+ years of Harry Caray, first
> with the Sox [I lived on the South Side for a while], mostly with
> the Cubs.)
"Ribbies" was one of the reasons I found Sox games unwatchable. The
plural of "RBI" was (and remains) "RBIs". I watched the Cubs, with
Jack Brickhouse.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
jdo...@math.ucr.edu
-zzzhme...@erols.com (Harlan Messinger) wrote:
-
->
->Doesn't matter. What's called for is the plural of the acronym, not
->the acronym of the plural.
-
-I thought I'd provide some support for my position. I can't think of
-any real-world examples at the moment to make this point, so just
-suppose that the acronym "UPC" had been coined some years ago for the
-expression "underprivileged child", and that this acronym has come to
-be commonly used for that concept. If I were to have reason to refer
-to any half dozen of these deprived minors, would I say "six UPCren"?
-No, I don't think so. One pluralizes the acronym. It would be "six
-UPCs".
and of course the only problem with that is that "rbi" was coined some
years ago as an abbreviation not for the expression "run batted in"
but for the much more common expression "runs batted in", much as
"mph" stands for "miles per hour" or "mpg" for "miles per gallon".
(actually i'm just guessing about this, but it seems likely.)
playing around with deja news suggests that although "rbis" or "rbi's"
is doing much better than "mpgs" or "mpg's", "rbi" is still the
preferred abbreviation for "runs batted in" on rec.sport.baseball, for
example.
Harlan Messinger
Is that right? Interesting. The "Xs per Y" strikes me as different,
though, because measurements traditionally *are* abbreviated without
indicating plural. One would also write "Distance: 55 mi." or "Height:
6 ft. 2 in." But then I realize that "lbs." is common. Hmmmm.
Dave Timpe
Ralph Jones <rmj...@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:37C1A99E...@hal-pc.org...
| I have never heard a newscaster pronounce Bret Favre's last name as
| anything but Farve. In fact, there was a joke made about this particular
| mispronunciation in the movie "There's Something About Mary" in which
| Favre played himself.
The local Green Bay sportscasters pronounced his name that way when he was a
rookie third-stringer. Usually such local media check with the individual
to find out how he pronounces his name when he plays for a team they
virtually live with (especially in Green Bay). In any event, either he
pronounced it that way all along, or they're the ones who invented it
--
Dave Timpe
davetimpe at cybrzn dot com
Steven H. Mesnick
> "Herbert F. W. Stahlke" wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > Why do so many sportscasters insist on pronouncing "strike" as
> > > > "shhhhtrike???"
> >
> > I've suspected for some time that sportscaster English is
> > Southern-influenced
Quotation-editing error.
In fact, I wrote neither that question (although
I responded to it) nor that answer.
Steve Mesnick
Dave Timpe
{O-Grande-Mentecapto} <mente...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:37c01564...@news.mandic.com.br...
| On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:14:18 GMT, luvs...@my-deja.com wrote:
|
| >This has been bothering me for a l-o-n-g time.
| >
| >"shhhhtrike???"
| >
| >
| >I assume there is some famous sportscaster who does this and they,
| >unable to come up with something intelligent or creative to say, resort
| >to copying the mis-pronunciations of some famous person, to convinvce
| >themselves they're talented, too.
| >
| >BUT, I could be wrong.
| >A regional thing? An incredible coincidence?
| >
| >Thanks for your help.
|
| That's an interesting point.. In english when we want to emphasize
| some word or expression, we raise the tone. "What have *YOU* done for
| me?".
I think the original poster was concerned with the way /st/ was pronounced
(evidently [St] by the announcer in question), but now that you mention it,
some baseball announcers (Vin Scully, I think) will lower their intonation
while pronouncing "strike" (usually after a long pause waiting for the
pitch). I think Scully says [Strajk], too.
I think a lot of the unusual aspects of baseball announcers speech comes
from filling in the pauses in a game which contains a lot of them. Also,
they listen to eachother when they get the chance (which might not be that
often for local radio announcers broadcasting all their team's games).
Every now and then Bob Uecker does Harry Caray (or at least he did before
the latter's death). Fortunately, no too many people do Bob Uecker
(although for awhile a lot of people were going around saying "I'm in the
front [ro::w]").