zaftig/ zusstig in German

[Felix Tilley]

Do these words really mean effervesence? Or do they mean a woman with big
boobs?

Felix

[Joachim Pense]

Am 01.03.2012 05:00, schrieb Felix Tilley:
> Do these words really mean effervesence? Or do they mean a woman with big
> boobs?

I am German, and I don't know these words. I guess they are Dutch.

Joachim

[Pierre Jelenc]

Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean "with
big boobs". I never heard of zusstig, but I don't speak Yiddish, I'm just
a New Yorker...

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Ruud Harmsen]

Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> schreef/wrote:

No.

--
Ruud Harmsen,
http://rudhar.com/new

[Dan Smeu]

On 01.03.2012 08:06, Pierre Jelenc wrote:

>I never heard of zusstig, but I don't speak Yiddish, I'm just
>a New Yorker...

<zusstig> : perhaps <jesty> + the German/Yiddish suffix <-ig> ?

Dan

[Christian Weisgerber]

Pierre Jelenc <rc...@panix.com> wrote:

> Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean "with
> big boobs".

Merriam-Webster glosses it as "(of a woman) having a full rounded
figure, pleasingly plump".

> I never heard of zusstig,

Neither has Google.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[pauljk]

"Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote in message
news:jio4qn$177c$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de...

> Pierre Jelenc <rc...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean "with
>> big boobs".
>
> Merriam-Webster glosses it as "(of a woman) having a full rounded
> figure, pleasingly plump".
>
>> I never heard of zusstig,
>
> Neither has Google.

The closest I can find in any Germanic language is Dutch zestig.

pjk

[Ruud Harmsen]

"pauljk" <paul....@xtra.co.nz> schreef/wrote:

Which is pronounced sestig, means 60 and has no physical or sexual
connotations whatsoever.

[pauljk]

"Ruud Harmsen" <r...@rudhar.com> wrote in message
news:8r11l7p8pr15km25v...@4ax.com...

Yes, of course. I meant it as a jocular remark. Zestig is the 'closest'
looking one I managed to find but clearly not related at all by
meaning or otherwise.

pjk

[Ruud Harmsen]

"pauljk" <paul....@xtra.co.nz> schreef/wrote:

>>>>> I never heard of zusstig,
>>>>
>>>> Neither has Google.
>>>
>>>The closest I can find in any Germanic language is Dutch zestig.
>>
>> Which is pronounced sestig, means 60 and has no physical or sexual
>> connotations whatsoever.
>
>Yes, of course. I meant it as a jocular remark. Zestig is the 'closest'
>looking one I managed to find but clearly not related at all by
>meaning or otherwise.

OK. Sigh of relief. I was really so worried!

[wugi]

Unlike negenenzestig ;-)
I suppose zusstig is connectable with suess/Süß, as zaftig with saftig, but
the -t- doesn't seem to fit. Or with lustig as second thought?

guido google:wugi

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 3, 6:06 am, "wugi" <wugiB...@scarlet.be> wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > "pauljk" <paul.kr...@xtra.co.nz> schreef/wrote:

> >> "Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote in message
> >>news:jio4qn$177c$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de...

> >>> Pierre Jelenc <r...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean
> >>>> "with big boobs".
>
> >>> Merriam-Webster glosses it as "(of a woman) having a full rounded
> >>> figure, pleasingly plump".
>
> >>>> I never heard of zusstig,
>
> >>> Neither has Google.
>
> >> The closest I can find in any Germanic language is Dutch zestig.
>
> > Which is pronounced sestig, means 60 and has no physical or sexual
> > connotations whatsoever.
>
> Unlike negenenzestig ;-)
> I suppose zusstig is connectable with suess/Süß, as zaftig with saftig, but
> the -t- doesn't seem to fit. Or with lustig as second thought?

Um, there's no evidence that a "zusstig" exists outside of OP's
fevered imagination.

[António Marques]

And I thought Miss Sixty was to enter the story at some point.
--
Sent from one of my newsreaders

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 1, 8:06 am, r...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
>
> Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean "with
> big boobs". I never heard of zusstig, but I don't speak Yiddish, I'm just
> a New Yorker...

Perhaps Felix means the noun Zustieg, from the verb
zusteigen = to climb the entrance of a train or bus?
In Switzerland we have Ziischdig for Tuesday.
Saftig means juicy. Saftig and Zusteigen / Zustieg
and Ziischdig 'Tuesday' are completely different
words that have nothing at all to do with each other.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On 4 mar, 12:12, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 8:06 am, r...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
>
>
>
> > Zaftig is Yiddish (German saftig) and besides "juicy" it does mean "with
> > big boobs". I never heard of zusstig, but I don't speak Yiddish, I'm just
> > a New Yorker...
>
> Perhaps Felix means the noun Zustieg

No, he does not. What he means is an adjective. Zusstig is probably
just a misheard zaftig.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

The usual verb for climbing a train or a bus is einsteigen.
Zusteigen has the additional meaning of joining the passengers
inside. From earlier times I remember a call of the Schaffner
on the Perron in a train station: Zueschdiige bitte!, trying to make
people climb into an already almost full train that will leave
shortly. The noun Einstieg names an entrance that involves
some climbing, also used metaphorically. I don't know whether
Zustieg actually exists, but in principle it could name a special
upway leading to an inhabited place, for example the steep
access to a Greek monastery perched on a rock needle.
Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries
but are plausible, and easily understood from the context.
Poets are allowed to form their own words. In a beautiful song
Bob Dylan mentions a silver-singing river. You understand
without understanding. I imagine young Robert on the bank of
a river, plucking his guitar, gazing into the swift play of the
silvery
light reflexes on the water and 'translating' them into melodies ...

The meaning of a word is defined by its use. In what context
appears the curious zusstig?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 5, 3:13 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries

Every writer of German uses "compounds that are not found in
dictionaries."

[Adam Funk]

You could argue that people do the same in English; it's just that
compounds aren't clearly marked as such.


--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Stob 2001)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 5, 9:54 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-03-05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 3:13 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> >> Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries
>
> > Every writer of German uses "compounds that are not found in
> > dictionaries."
>
> You could argue that people do the same in English; it's just that
> compounds aren't clearly marked as such.

It's called "linguistic creativity."

When Franz says something silly about English, I'll comment on that,
too.

[Helmut Wollmersdorfer]

On 03/01/2012 05:00 AM, Felix Tilley wrote:
> Do these words really mean effervesence?

Both are not current Standard-German.

As a guess into the dark "zusstig" is maybe formed from the verb
"zussern" (variants: züssern, zusern), which maybe survived in "zuzeln"
= EN: to suck. Then it means something like "süffig" = EN: palatable.

More context, or a larger quote would be nice.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 5, 2:50 pm, Helmut Wollmersdorfer <hel...@wollmersdorfer.at>
wrote:

Please see the thread. There is no evidence at all that any such word
exists or has existed. ("Zaftig" is good Yinglish and probably Yiddish
also.)

[Christian Weisgerber]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> >> Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries
> >
> > Every writer of German uses "compounds that are not found in
> > dictionaries."
>
> You could argue that people do the same in English; it's just that
> compounds aren't clearly marked as such.

I've just argued this over in a.u.e., in the "lower key or more
low-key?" thread...

[Franz Gnaedinger]

German zusteigen 'to get on, to board' derives from a surpising
Middle High German verb, zuostigen 'to ascend to the stars,
into heaven'. Quote from the online version of the Wörterbuch
by the Grimm brothers:

zusteigen, v., mhd. zuostîgen L. 3, 1168. in der barockliteratur
den sternen, dem himmel z. Lohenstein Agrippina (1685) 89;
Haller ged. (1882) 50.

The verb could have become a noun, zuostigen zuostig zusstig,
and the noun might have named a peculiar climbing device
that will be explained shortly. Imagine a Yiddish love song
from rural Poland in an earlier century, about a young man
climbing secretly at night into the window of his girlfriend,
a zaftig or luscious young woman, and finding heaven in
her arms ... Romeo climbed up to the balcony of Julia.
Farm hands climbed into the windows of their girlfriends
in Switzerland, a practice called Fänschderle, verb to the noun
Fänschder 'window'. In the fairy tale Rapunzel, one of the many
folk tales recollected by the Grimm brothers, a young woman
held captive in a high chamber of a tower lets down her very
long hair, so that her lover can climb up to her window.
A Polish farm girl might have let down a simple climbing
device, a cheap version of a knotted rope, made of rags
knotted together, and would have done so when she heard
her lover gently singing or whistling or meowing under
her window. That simple climbing device could have been
a zuosstig or zusstig, for it allowed the enamoured young man
to climb into the chamber of his girl, to ascend into seventh
heaven, as it were, according to the meaning of the Middle
High German zuostigen (with long i, zuostiigen).

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 6, 2:19 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> > The meaning of a word is defined by its use. In what context
> > appears the curious zusstig?

In no context whatsoever. Lack of evidence, however, does not dissuade
Franz from fantasizing.

> German zusteigen 'to get on, to board' derives from a surpising
> Middle High German verb, zuostigen 'to ascend to the stars,
> into heaven'. Quote from the online version of the Wörterbuch
> by the Grimm brothers:
>
>   zusteigen, v., mhd. zuostîgen L. 3, 1168. in der barockliteratur
>   den sternen, dem himmel z. Lohenstein Agrippina (1685) 89;
>   Haller ged. (1882) 50.
>
> The verb could have become

Unlike "Magdalenian" studies, the linguistics of real languages
doesn't deal in "could have"s. Attested evidence is required for
semantic interpretations.

> a noun, zuostigen zuostig zusstig,
> and the noun might have named a peculiar climbing device

There is no evidence for such a "device."

> that will be explained shortly. Imagine a Yiddish love song
> from rural Poland in an earlier century, about a young man
> climbing secretly at night into the window of his girlfriend,
> a zaftig or luscious young woman, and finding heaven in
> her arms ...

There is no "heaven" in Judaism.

> Romeo climbed up to the balcony of Julia.

Not according to Shakespeare, he didn't. Or did Lessing rearrange the
scenes in the German version?

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-05, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries
>> >
>> > Every writer of German uses "compounds that are not found in
>> > dictionaries."
>>
>> You could argue that people do the same in English; it's just that
>> compounds aren't clearly marked as such.

(I meant: not as clearly marked as compounds in English as in German;
hyphenated compounds are more obvious than spaced ones.)

> I've just argued this over in a.u.e., in the "lower key or more
> low-key?" thread...

Yes I've just picked that up.


--
Oh, I am just a student, sir, and I only want to learn
But it's hard to read through the rising smoke
of the books that you want to burn
[Phil Ochs]

[António Marques]

Adam Funk wrote (06-03-2012 13:22):
> On 2012-03-05, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Goethe used compounds that are not found in dictionaries
>>>>
>>>> Every writer of German uses "compounds that are not found in
>>>> dictionaries."
>>>
>>> You could argue that people do the same in English; it's just that
>>> compounds aren't clearly marked as such.

>> I've just argued this over in a.u.e., in the "lower key or more
>> low-key?" thread...
>
> Yes I've just picked that up.

I'm sure it's interesting to tears.

[Helmut Wollmersdorfer]

On 03/05/2012 10:17 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2:50 pm, Helmut Wollmersdorfer<hel...@wollmersdorfer.at>
> wrote:
>> On 03/01/2012 05:00 AM, Felix Tilley wrote:
>>
>>> Do these words really mean effervesence?
>>
>> Both are not current Standard-German.
>>
>> As a guess into the dark "zusstig" is maybe formed from the verb
>> "zussern" (variants: züssern, zusern), which maybe survived in "zuzeln"
>> = EN: to suck. Then it means something like "süffig" = EN: palatable.
>>
>> More context, or a larger quote would be nice.
>
> Please see the thread.

Why do you believe that I didn't read the thread before writing?

> There is no evidence at all that any such word
> exists or has existed.

We cannot find any evidence and the OP does not give us one.

But this does not mean that the word zusstig was never used in one of
the ~800 variants/dialects of German.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Besides, in zaftig and probably also in the apocryphal zusstig the z-
stands for [z], not [ts], Thus, if there is such a noun as zusstig, it
should be *susstig.

My guess is that this *zustig is a contamination of süss and saftig/
zaftig, and it is probable that this contamination happened in the
OP's mind. The *zustig might also be his mishearing of zaftig, which
indeed is good Yinglish and known to all devoted readers of Leo Rosten.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 6, 4:59 pm, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

> indeed is good Yinglish and known to all devoted readers of Leo Rosten.-

It's one of the fairly few words he treats that has currency far
beyond the lexicons.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 6, 5:06 pm, Helmut Wollmersdorfer <hel...@wollmersdorfer.at>

wrote:
> On 03/05/2012 10:17 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Mar 5, 2:50 pm, Helmut Wollmersdorfer<hel...@wollmersdorfer.at>
> > wrote:
> >> On 03/01/2012 05:00 AM, Felix Tilley wrote:
>
> >>> Do these words really mean effervesence?
>
> >> Both are not current Standard-German.
>
> >> As a guess into the dark "zusstig" is maybe formed from the verb
> >> "zussern" (variants: züssern, zusern), which maybe survived in "zuzeln"
> >> = EN: to suck. Then it means something like "süffig" = EN: palatable.
>
> >> More context, or a larger quote would be nice.
>
> > Please see the thread.
>
> Why do you believe that I didn't read the thread before writing?

Because despite all the testimony to the contrary, you believe that a
context or a quote could be produced.

> > There is no evidence at all that any such word
> > exists or has existed.
>
> We cannot find any evidence and the OP does not give us one.
>
> But this does not mean that the word zusstig was never used in one of
> the ~800 variants/dialects of German.

And if it were, what would it mean? who would understand it?

Is not German one of the best documented languages in the world?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

The noun Zustieg exists and has the assumed main meaning
of a steep and difficult upway to some dwelling, for example
a hut or house of the Swiss Alpine Club SAC, built high up
in the mountains, in rocky altitudes above the forest, providing
shelter for climbers and well experienced wanderers.

zuostîgen zusteigen

zuostîgen zuostig zusstig ??

zuostîgen Zustieg

Felix, we need more infomation. Where and how did you
encounter the word zusstig? in written or spoken form?
Did you hear a word but were uncertain about the spelling,
so you rendered it in two versions, the correct one, zaftig,
and a wrong one, zusstig? Or did you hear two different words
and assumed that they are variants of the same word?

Peter, many old professions and customs disappeared,
with them a lot of tools and objects and practices, and
tens of thousands of words that named them. You'd be
amazed about the many strange words in our Idioticon
- the many volumes of the dictionary of my language -,
and they are only words that survived in written form,
all the others are lost completely.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 6, 2:06 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Not according to Shakespeare, he didn't. Or did Lessing rearrange the
> scenes in the German version?

You are right, Romeo did not climb to the balcony
of Julia. But the elements of the old practice are there,
first the famous balcony scene, Julia appearing in
a window overhead, then the planned escape in Act 2
Scene 4

Juliet is to go to the Friar's cell and Romeo will arrange
for a rope ladder to be placed at Juliet's window within
the hour to facilitate her escape.

All the elements are present. You can be sure that there
were a lot of stories about this topic, and all possible
variants. The rope ladder used for such adventures,
for climbing into the window of the girlfriend, in order
to spend time with her, or to get her and escape
with her, as the lover in the fairy tale Rapunzel did,
could have had a name in various languages, and
it was not always a classical rope ladder, it could also
have been a rope with knots, or, among poor farm hands,
just old rags knotted together. There is no heaven in
Yiddish, but certainly a sky with stars? Middle High German
zuostigen meant to ascend to the stars, into heaven.
Seventh heaven is a term for bliss, not a religious heaven.
Romeo, in the balcony scene, compares the eyes of
Julia in her window overhead with moon and sun.
All the elements are there.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

> Peter, many old professions and customs disappeared,
> with them a lot of tools and objects and practices, and
> tens of thousands of words that named them. You'd be
> amazed about the many strange words in our Idioticon
> - the many volumes of the dictionary of my language -,
> and they are only words that survived in written form,
> all the others are lost completely.

I just looked up the Idioticon. They have not yet arrived
at the volume Z, so I consulted words of the form stig
and found Stigel(en) for a stick with a forked end used
in spanning up a linen one wanted to bleach, also in
climbing a difficult part of a rock face. Stigelen was
also a game played by children, jumping and leaping
over sticks, which explains a word I heard as a boy,
stigelisinning, over-exited, especially of children.
A Stigel could also have been used for climbing to
a not so high window. Combine zuo 'toward, upward'
with Stigel for the climbing stick and you get zuo-stigel,
in a shortened form zuostig and zusstig. So the climbing
help could also have been a stick with a forked end
instead of a rope ladder or a rope with knots or old rags
knotted together.

[Adam Funk]

It's a hoot!


--
XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
use more.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
nonexistent *zusstig.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Actually, if the word is supposed to be an adjective, the morpheme is -
ig added to a probably nonexistent *zusst-, or in German orthography,
*susst-.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 7, 5:52 pm, The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army

> *susst-.-

A fortiori, if there _were_ a content morpheme stig, it could not be
found in this nonexistent word.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 7, 2:05 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
> nonexistent *zusstig.

Yes, there is, look up the Idioticon, there is an online
version available, modest compared to the many volumes
in print.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 6, 2:06 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> There is no "heaven" in Judaism.

Quotes from Job, a novel by Jospeh Roth in the English
translation by Dorothy Thompson. Near the begin:

(Deborah) no longer dared to call up on God.
He seemed too lofty, too great, too far away, infinitely
far away behind an infinite Heaven. She would have
needed a ladder of a million prayers to touch a hem
of God's garment. She thought after the dead who
might intercede for her, called upon her parents,
upon Menuchim's grandfather, after whom the child
had been named, then upon the ancestors of the Jews,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, upon the bones of Moses,
and, finally, upon Mother Eve herself.
She directed her sighs wherever an advocate
might be found. She beat upon a hundred graves,
knocket at a hundred doors of Paradise.

Close to the end:

Deborah was dead. Perhaps with strange otherworldly
eyes she saw the miracle from the other side.

Heaven, worthy ancestors in Paradise, otherworld and
other side ... Now for a passage in the middle of the book.
Deborah's daughter Miriam has a Cossack for a lover
and meets him one more time before she departs for
America, alone, without him:

They embraced, as they had done in the middle
of the field, bedded amidst the fruits of the earth,
surrounded and shaded by the vaulted arch of
the wheat (......) They lay for a long time, exhausted,
helpless, speechless, as though sorely wounded.
A thousand thoughts went to and fro in their brains.
They did not notice the rain, which had come at last.
It began softly and craftily; it was a long time before
the drops were heavy enough to break through
the thick golden enclosure of the ears.

The "vaulted arch of the wheat" and "golden enclosure"
invoke the heavenly vault, subtly endorsed by the ancient
parallel between grains of cereals and rain drops (gold
signet ring from Tiryns, La Dame Blanche in an abri
on the Tassili n'Ajjer in the Sahara). Miriam and her
Cossack find heaven on earth, in each other's arms.

[Ruud Harmsen]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
>nonexistent *zusstig.

Lästig!
--
Ruud Harmsen,
http://rudhar.com/new

[António Marques]

How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
and stress?)

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

You obviously don't know what a morpheme is.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 8, 6:47 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
> and stress?)

the Masoretic voweling is:

d&*bh*o:rA

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Wikipedia:

Hebrew: דְבוֹרָה, Modern Dvora Tiberian Dəḇôrā

[Yusuf B Gursey]

curiously the LXX has two beta's

Δεββωρά

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 8, 12:07 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>
> >There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
> >nonexistent *zusstig.
>
> Lästig!

No, lästig is an adjective, composed of Last 'heavy weight'
(akin to load), and -ig, marker of an adjective. Stig is an
old form of steig-. One of my messages from yesterday
did not arrive. I corrected my mistake about the Swiss Idiotikon.
The full PDF version is online. You can find it under
www.idiotikon.ch . Give in stig in the field Wortsuche
and you get a long list of words, genuine stig words like
a(n)gestig, a(n)-ge-stig 'ascent', and false stig words like
lustig 'funny', composed of Last 'heavy weight (akin to load)'
and the adjective marker -ig. It is a long list full of some common
and many old words. I tried to send it again this morning, in vain
again, so you must look it up yourself.

[Ruud Harmsen]

António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:

>How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
>and stress?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah is a start.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 9, 8:33 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 12:07 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > >There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
> > >nonexistent *zusstig.
>
> > Lästig!
>
> No, lästig is an adjective, composed of Last 'heavy weight'
> (akin to load), and -ig, marker of an adjective. Stig is an
> old form of steig-. One of my messages from yesterday
> did not arrive. I corrected my mistake about the Swiss Idiotikon.
> The full PDF version is online. You can find it under

> www.idiotikon.ch. Give in stig in the field Wortsuche

> and you get a long list of words, genuine stig words like
> a(n)gestig, a(n)-ge-stig 'ascent', and false stig words like
> lustig 'funny', composed of Last 'heavy weight (akin to load)'
> and the adjective marker -ig. It is a long list full of some common
> and many old words. I tried to send it again this morning, in vain
> again, so you must look it up yourself.

Sorry for the typo. The adjective lustig is composed of Lust
(same meaning as in English) and the suffix -ig. Trying again
and again, in vain, was turning my fun or lust into a Last.
Google accepted my posts that included the long list of words,
Your message was successful, I was told, twice, but my posts
do not show up. Maybe the diacritic signs can't be rendered.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:

I already quoted from it.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

On 9 mar, 09:33, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 12:07 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > >There is no morpheme "stig" in German that could be part of the
> > >nonexistent *zusstig.
>
> > Lästig!
>
> No, lästig is an adjective, composed of Last 'heavy weight'
> (akin to load), and -ig, marker of an adjective.

Hey, Franz does know after all what a morpheme is, although he does
not know the word.

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

I know Franz does not read my posts, but his post and his diacritic
sign showed up just fine for me.

[António Marques]

Yusuf B Gursey wrote (09-03-2012 08:36):
> On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen<r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:
>>
>>> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
>>> and stress?)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah is a start.

Why do you think I said 'really' and 'stress', Ruud?

> I already quoted from it.

I thank you both, but I'm still in the dark.
It's indeed interesting that the LXX has -bb-. But why the epsilon for the
schwa? NB the epsilon seems to have stuck - english has ['dEbr@], portuguese
has ['dEbUr@].

[pauljk]

"The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army" <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:229c8f5c-a142-40d8...@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Don't be too hasty to discount chance and/or coincidence. :-)

pjk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 9, 2:50 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> Sorry for the typo. The adjective lustig is composed of Lust
> (same meaning as in English)

Ger. "Lust" and Eng. "lust" do _not_ have the same meaning.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 9, 5:52 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote (09-03-2012 08:36):
>
> > On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen<r...@rudhar.com>  wrote:
> >> António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt>  schreef/wrote:
>
> >>> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
> >>> and stress?)
>

> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborahis a start.

>
> Why do you think I said 'really' and 'stress', Ruud?
>
> > I already quoted from it.
>
> I thank you both, but I'm still in the dark.
> It's indeed interesting that the LXX has -bb-. But why the epsilon for the
> schwa? NB the epsilon seems to have stuck - english has ['dEbr@], portuguese
> has ['dEbUr@].

What does LXX usually use for shwa? (Remember that the symbol <shwa>
would not be invented until 800 or 900 years after the LXX was
written.)

[Ruud Harmsen]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

Yes, they have (meaningS, not meaning), except that the degrees of
obsoleteness vary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lust?show=0&t=1331295270
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Lust

Same for Dutch, by the way.

[Helmut Richter]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> >On Mar 9, 2:50 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry for the typo. The adjective lustig is composed of Lust
> >> (same meaning as in English)
> >
> >Ger. "Lust" and Eng. "lust" do _not_ have the same meaning.
>
> Yes, they have (meaningS, not meaning), except that the degrees of
> obsoleteness vary:
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lust?show=0&t=1331295270
> http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Lust

Most meanings of this word in one language are possible meanings in the
other one as well. But as the range of meanings in both languages include
strong sexual desire and morbid desires (including "Mordlust" = "lust to
kill"), there is in *both* languages a danger to use the word in a context
where it will taken for something that was not intended.

For German, there is never anything wrong with the expression "Lust haben,
etwas zu tun" = "feel like doing something" whereas most other expressions
could have unwanted connotations, in particular the plural "Lüste" and the
adjective "lüstern". As far as I know, the danger of running into unwanted
connotations is still greater with the English word "lust".

The adjective "lustig", obviously a cognate, is no longer associated with
"Lust": having "Lust" is normally not "lustig" and vice versa.

--
Helmut Richter

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 9, 8:25 am, Helmut Richter <hh...@web.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

There's a non-bad connotaton in the phrase "lust for life," which is
the title of a biography of van Gogh that was made into a mawkish
movie.

What's the German name of the relevant Deadly Sin?

(The advertising for the magnificent Peter Cook / Dudley Moore movie
*Bedazzled* included the line "... and Raquel Welch as Lust!")

(There was a really awful remake a few years ago.)

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Wollust, probably from wohl + lust.

Not really everyday vocabulary.

> (The advertising for the magnificent Peter Cook / Dudley Moore movie
> *Bedazzled* included the line "... and Raquel Welch as Lust!")

In Germany, it was called "Mephisto '68", I never knew. The
Remake, "Teuflisch".

--
Skyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?
Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors
do to food, right?
Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley

[Christian Weisgerber]

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > >http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lust?show=0&t=1331295270
> > >http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Lust
> >
> > Most meanings of this word in one language are possible meanings in the
> > other one as well.
>

> What's the German name of the relevant Deadly Sin?

Wollust

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 9, 5:52 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:

> Yusuf B Gursey wrote (09-03-2012 08:36):
>
> > On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen<r...@rudhar.com>  wrote:
> >> António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt>  schreef/wrote:
>
> >>> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
> >>> and stress?)
>

> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborahis a start.

>
> Why do you think I said 'really' and 'stress', Ruud?
>
> > I already quoted from it.
>
> I thank you both, but I'm still in the dark.
> It's indeed interesting that the LXX has -bb-. But why the epsilon for the
> schwa? NB the epsilon seems to have stuck - english has ['dEbr@], portuguese
> has ['dEbUr@].

there was no Greek or Roman symbol for the schwa. one could also
legitimatley ask if Hebrew had a schwa at the time in the first first
place. there are some differences between the LXX voweling and even
the consonantism (Heth and also `ayin represented two different
phonemes at the time), and probably lack of spirintization of stops.
also differences like Mariam vs. Miriam that are attributed to a
change due to stress (acc. to a previous poster here).

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 9, 3:40 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 5:52 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yusuf B Gursey wrote (09-03-2012 08:36):
>
> > > On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen<r...@rudhar.com>  wrote:
> > >> António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt>  schreef/wrote:
>
> > >>> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
> > >>> and stress?)
>

> > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborahisa start.

>
> > Why do you think I said 'really' and 'stress', Ruud?
>
> > > I already quoted from it.
>
> > I thank you both, but I'm still in the dark.
> > It's indeed interesting that the LXX has -bb-. But why the epsilon for the
> > schwa? NB the epsilon seems to have stuck - english has ['dEbr@], portuguese
> > has ['dEbUr@].
>
> there was no Greek or Roman symbol for the schwa. one could also
> legitimatley ask if Hebrew had a schwa at the time in the first first

I remeber a comment that it had, due to the rather arbitrary choice of
vowels in its place (I think F. de Blois commneted on that)

[Joachim Pense]

Am 09.03.2012 19:18, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

>

>>
>> What's the German name of the relevant Deadly Sin?
>
> Wollust, probably from wohl + lust.
>

The official latin term for Wollust is luxuria. From just looking at the
word, I wouldn't relate it to anything sexual.

Joachim

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 9, 3:40 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 9, 5:52 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yusuf B Gursey wrote (09-03-2012 08:36):
>
> > > On Mar 9, 3:24 am, Ruud Harmsen<r...@rudhar.com>  wrote:
> > >> António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt>  schreef/wrote:
>
> > >>> How does one really pronounce Deborah in Hebrew? (old and modern?) (vowels
> > >>> and stress?)
>

> > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborahisa start.

>
> > Why do you think I said 'really' and 'stress', Ruud?
>
> > > I already quoted from it.
>
> > I thank you both, but I'm still in the dark.
> > It's indeed interesting that the LXX has -bb-. But why the epsilon for the
> > schwa? NB the epsilon seems to have stuck - english has ['dEbr@], portuguese
> > has ['dEbUr@].
>
> there was no Greek or Roman symbol for the schwa. one could also
> legitimatley ask if Hebrew had a schwa at the time in the first first
> place. there are some differences between the LXX voweling and even
> the consonantism (Heth and also `ayin represented two different
> phonemes at the time), and probably lack of spirintization of stops.
> also differences like Mariam vs. Miriam that are attributed to a

> change due to stress (acc. to a previous poster here).-

The most systematic treatment of the Greek transcriptions of Hebrew is
in Rudolf Meyer's Hebraeische Grammatik (4 vols. in the Sammlung
Goeschen; not too long ago reprinted in one volume by de Gruyter).

[Oliver Cromm]

* Joachim Pense:

Luxury is not widely counted as sin these days.

But even "Wollust" is used surprisingly broadly, if you look at
actual usage examples.

| Ach, Segen und Freude um sich her zu verbreiten, welche Wollust,
| welche Entzückung!
<www.bruehlmeier.info/gemeinnuetzigkeit.htm>

--
*Multitasking* /v./ Screwing up several things at once

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 8, 9:46 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> curiously the LXX has two beta's
>
> Δεββωρά

Thank you, once again, for a precious information.
The double beta allows me to go for a Magdalenian
reading of Deborah as DAP BIR RAA and to suggest
a very ancient ceremony of baptizing a child.

PAD means activity of feet and is present in the name
of David, from DA PAD, away from DA activity of feet PAD
--- David in the Bible having been delivered from the paw
of the lion, from the paw of the bear, and from the 'paw'
of Goliath. Inverse DAP means activity of hands. BIR
means fur, especially the fur on which a newborn
was placed. RAA means light. And the compound
would name a woman who held a newborn placed
on the fur, and exposed the child to the light in a very
ancient ceremony of baptizing. The German formula
Das Licht der Welt erblicken, to see the light of the world,
means to be born. The bear fur on which a newborn
was placed in ancient Greece for example gave way to
the bearing cloth in which a child in Britain was carried
to be baptized (Edward de Vere alias William Shakespeare
in A Winter's Tale). And when John baptized Christ in the
river Jordan, a ray of light radiating from the beak of the
Holy Spirit in the guise of a dove shone on Christ
(at least in the famous painting by Piero della Francesca).
RAA is also present in the name of Sarah, from SA RAA,
downward SA light RAA, a light shining down on the woman,
sent from the Lord in heaven, blessing her with a child.
RAA is again present in Israel, byname of Jacob who
saw the Lord in an aureole of light at the top of a heavenly
ladder when sleeping in the wilderness near Beersheba,
Israel from AS RAA ) or AS RAA L, in the longer form
AS AAR RAA ) or AS AAR RAA L, upward AS air AAR
light RAA to have the say ) or L, up above AS the Lord
composed of air AAR and light RAA has the say ) or L.
Jacob was on his way to Harran or Haran that is near
the Göbekli Tepe (only forty kilometers south of the
Göbekli Tepe). A big limestone ring from that hill shows
the heavenly Lord composed of air and light, ex negatiivo,
really made of air and light:
www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 9, 2:25 pm, Helmut Richter <hh...@web.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

As I said, lustig means funny and is composed of Lust

[Joachim Pense]

Am 10.03.2012 00:35, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
> * Joachim Pense:
>
>> Am 09.03.2012 19:18, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> What's the German name of the relevant Deadly Sin?
>>>
>>> Wollust, probably from wohl + lust.
>>>
>>
>> The official latin term for Wollust is luxuria. From just looking at the
>> word, I wouldn't relate it to anything sexual.
>
> Luxury is not widely counted as sin these days.
>
> But even "Wollust" is used surprisingly broadly, if you look at
> actual usage examples.
>

A few years ago, a lot of little wool shops were founded in Germany, and
many of them got the name "Wollust" (pun on "Wolle"='wool').

Joachim

[Ruud Harmsen]

Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> schreef/wrote:

Interestingly, the Dutch word wellust means the same, and wel = wohl.

[Joachim Pense]

The same as what? Luxury, or voluptuousness?

Joachim

[Ruud Harmsen]

The latter. Wollust doesn't mean luxury, does it?
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Wollust
"sinnliche, sexuelle Begierde, Lust".

Latin luxuria doesn't only mean luxury.

[Trond Engen]

Ruud Harmsen:

And from another part of the German ichnosphere, the Scandinavian word
'vellyst'.

--
Trond Engen

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Seems that Felix encountered the word zusstig in an
essay Tolkin wrote on Beowulf, hence in written form.
Can we have a quote, please?

Debbora Deborah calls herself "a mother in Israel"
(Judges 5:7). She was a prophetess and a judge,
became a military leader and gained victory in a grim
battle on Mount Tabor (Judges 4). Her double role
as mother and military leader evokes a female bear,
devoted mother and fiercly defending her cubs.
Bears were numerous in ancient Palestine.
A divine bear mother and bear nurse had been
worshipped in the Neolithic Balkans (clay figurines
of the Vinca culture). Newborns were placed on bear
fur in ancient Greece (according to a written testimony
from the sencond century AD), a custom that survived
until the twentieth century in parts of the eastern
Slavic world (Marija Gimbutas) and most probably
goes back to the Stone Age, BIR meaning fur,

especially the fur on which a newborn was placed

(a particular meaning imposed by the meme of
the permutation group). Deborah would have been
a priestess in the role of the divine bear mother
and bear nurse, wrapping a child into warming
bear fur and holding it up into the light, perhaps
the first rays of the morning sun, also giving advice
to the parents in her function as prophetess.
In Psalm 89, the heavenly Lord is praised for
having created North and South, Karmel and Tabor,
Mount Karmel standing for West and Mount Tabor
for East, where the sun rises in the morning.
Mount Tabor is 588 meters high, in the province
of Sebuhan, east of Nazareth and west of the Jordan
reaver leaving Lake Kinneret or Genezareth.
At the eastern base of Mount Tabor was a village
called Daberat. DAP BIR RAA Debbora Deborah
Tabor Daberat ???

Next time: etymology of Judaea, and the Lord
as "father of day" (Bob Dylan, New Morning)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 10, 4:46 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 9:46 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > curiously the LXX has two beta's
>
> > Δεββωρά
>
> Thank you, once again, for a precious information.
> The double beta allows me to go for a Magdalenian
> reading of Deborah as DAP BIR RAA and to suggest
> a very ancient ceremony of baptizing a child.
>

gee! what about simply "bee"

[The General of the Faceless Anti-Franz Shadow Army]

Very good, Franz. Now, would you analyze in a similar way the word
Geluste? I remember that when I was a teenage boy, I saw a wonderful
porn video called Lauras Gelüste.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

A double formula invoked the ancient weather god

ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA

ruler ShA able DhAG activity of feet PAD to overcome
in the double sense of rule and give TYR upward AS
sky CA - the able ruler goes ahead and overcomes
in the double sense of rule and give up above in
the sky ... This double formula is a quarry of divine
names. ShA PAD TYR became Jupitter Jupiter Jovis
Giove, originally a weather god in the guise of a bull.
DhAG PAD TYR became Dis Pater, byname of Jupiter.
ShA PAD TYR AS CA Giobe AS CA Giubiasco names
a village on a bend of the river Ticino in southern
Switzerland, where the lovely Italian landscape of
the Lago Maggiore with Ascona and Locarno goes
over into the grim scenery of the Alps, a place where
tradesmen heading for north implored good weather,
while those who came from the north thanked for the
good weather and the luck they had in traversing
the mountains by throwing precious objects into
the river (many have been found, many more are
still buried in the river bed). TYR became emphatic
Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. Also
Zeus was originally a weather god, and also he could
appear as a bull. DhAG became Dios, byname of Zeus.
TYR CA became Turc-. ShA PAD became Shiva, and
TYR CA Durga, an emanation of Shiva's wife. TYR
became the androgynous sun archer TIr of the
Armenain Bronze Age. The variation SA TYR NOS,
mind NOS of the one who overcomes in the double
sense of rule and give TYR from above, in downward
direction SA, became Saturnus Saturn, founder of the
golden age in Latium, mentioned as TYRSANOS on
an Etruscan shard found in the agora of Athens.
TYR AS became *tiwaz and then Tir, Norse god of
justice and war, TYR alone Thor, god of thunder.
TYR in the emphatic Middle Helladic form of Sseyr
has a cognate in the Serri bull of the Hurrians and
Hittites, a weather god. Another cognate is the name
of Mount Seir in the Negev, abode of Jahwe, a storm
god and 'rider of clouds', worshipped as a bull on top
of a hill near Samaria. His name enfolds the long
double formula to ShA CA and DhAG CA, while
ShA DhAG may account for Judaea, (land under
the heavenly) ruler, the able one. DhAG meaning
able, good in the sense of able, is a word of very
many derivatives, among them English day, invoking
the god as "father of day" (Bob Dylan, New Morning).

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 12, 8:44 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> gee! what about simply "bee"

Deborah in my interpretation has parallels to Artemis
of Ephesos who assisted women in giving birth and
could appear in several guises, for example wearing
a bear mask or head, or as bee (Melissa). Hebrew
Deborah 'bee' remembers the bee aspect of the
polymorph goddess. Deborah could have been
an alter ego of Artemis, if not her Neolithic ancestor,
divine bear mother or bear nurse on the older level,
divine bee queen on the younger level. Her Neolithic
name could have been the double formula

DAP BIR RAA
DAP BIR RYT

the first line invoking the baptizing goddess, the second
one the mother goddess defending her children, RYT
meaning spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer,
protector', cf. Artemis the hunting goddess. Deborah
may have been worshipped east of Mount Tabor, at
Daberat, and at Dabbura south of Lake Hazor, on the
Jordanian bank of the Jordan, and in the inner sanctorum
of the temple at Jerusalem, called Dabir in the Vulgata.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

(compiling my Deborah messages)

Double formula invoking the mother goddess,
long double formula invoking the weather god

Yusuf Gursey mentioned that the name Deborah
is given as Debbora in the Vulgata. Here my replies,
taken together und slightly edited:

Thank you, once again, for a precious information.
The double beta allows me to go for a Magdalenian
reading of Deborah as DAP BIR RAA and to suggest
a very ancient ceremony of baptizing a child.

river leaving Lake Kinneret or Genezareth.

Deborah in my interpretation has parallels to Artemis
of Ephesos who assisted women in giving birth and
could appear in several guises, for example wearing
a bear mask or head, or as bee (Melissa). Hebrew
Deborah 'bee' remembers the bee aspect of the
polymorph goddess. Deborah could have been
an alter ego of Artemis, if not her Neolithic ancestor,
divine bear mother or bear nurse on the older level,
divine bee queen on the younger level. Her Neolithic
name could have been the double formula

DAP BIR RAA
DAP BIR RYT


the first line invoking the baptizing goddess, the second
one the mother goddess defending her children, RYT
meaning spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer,
protector', cf. Artemis the hunting goddess. Deborah
may have been worshipped east of Mount Tabor, at
Daberat, and at Dabbura south of Lake Hazor, on the

Jordanian bank of the Jordan river, and in the sanctum
sanctorum, holy of the holies of the Tabernacle and
Temple in Jerusalem, called Debir, Dabir in the Vulgata.

The double formula invoking the mother goddess
is justified by a long double formula invoking
the weather god.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Shape shifting was part of mythology and is reflected
in variations of the religious formulae. DhAG PAD TYR
became Dis pater, byname of ShA PAD TYR Jupitter
Jupiter Jovis Giove, dyaus pita in Vedic Sanskrit,
and Illyrian Dei-patrous. The Greek version would have
been Dios pataer, however, DhAG Dios was replaced by
TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus, and the formula became Zeus pataer.
DhAG meaning able, good in the sense of able, and TYR
meaning overcomer, as verb to overcome in the double
sense of rule and give, are part of an older formula
invoking the goddess, DhAG TYR DhAG, wherefrom Greek
thygataer Dios and Sanskrit duhita dive, while the
variation DhAG DhAG TYR became Lithuanian dievo dukte.
The able overcomer who ruled and gave had once been
the goddess but was turned into the daughter of the god,
for example Athene, one of many emanations of the goddess,
became the daughter of Zeus, emerging from his head in
full armour, sign of her ancient power.

[Italo]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:

<snip>

> Hebrew
> Deborah 'bee' remembers the bee aspect of the
> polymorph goddess.

<snip>

> Deborah
> may have been worshipped east of Mount Tabor, at
> Daberat, and at Dabbura south of Lake Hazor,

Genesis 15 has Dabar-Jahweh as "the Word of Jahweh".
Perhaps Dabar, as epithet for Jahweh, is akin to Deborah?
(Eblaite Dabir?)





--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

[Italo]

Italo <italo...@operamail.com> schreef:

>
> Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:
>
> <snip>
> > Hebrew
> > Deborah 'bee' remembers the bee aspect of the
> > polymorph goddess.
> <snip>
> > Deborah
> > may have been worshipped east of Mount Tabor, at
> > Daberat, and at Dabbura south of Lake Hazor,
>
> Genesis 15 has Dabar-Jahweh as "the Word of Jahweh".
> Perhaps Dabar, as epithet for Jahweh,

On second thought, forget that.

> is akin to Deborah? (Eblaite Dabir?)

Both Deborah and Dabir may've been named after a toponym,
Tabor/Daberath in the case of Deborah, but there is too much
distance between these two to be same deity.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 16, 3:49 pm, Italo <italo_2...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
> Genesis 15 has Dabar-Jahweh as "the Word of Jahweh".
> Perhaps Dabar, as epithet for Jahweh, is akin to Deborah?
> (Eblaite Dabir?)

Good question. I see a possible connection
if I imagine the act of babtizing a child by wrapping
it in warming bear fur and holding it up into the light,
activity of hands DAB fur BIR light RAA. Now picture
that the bear fur was kept in a sacred shrine called
DAB BIR ??? that became tabernacle (perhaps
DAB BIR NYG). When a newborn child was brought
to the shrine or temple, the priestess took out the
fur and performed the ceremony. That fur could also
have played a role in the law, remember that Deborah
was a judge. We may pronounce an oath on the Bible,
they may have pronounced an oath on the sacred fur
of Deborah. Touching the fur would have meant: I now
say the truth and nothing but the truth, and if you prove
me wrong, I deserve severe punishment. Touching the
sacred fur of Deborah kept in the tabernacle would
have been the equivalent of speaking the truth,
as Jahwe is speaking the truth -- being God,
Jahwe can't but speak the truth, as if holding
the sacred fur of the mother goddess.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Genesis 15, begin, from the New International Version:

The LORD’s Covenant With Abram

After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram
in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,
your very great reward.”

But Abram said, “Sovereign LORD, what can you give me
since I remain childless and the one who will inherit
my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said,
“You have given me no children; so a servant in my
household will be my heir.”

Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man
will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh
and blood will be your heir.” He took him outside and said,
“Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can
count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

The Lord kept his word, and he made his promise in the
context of children, offspring numerous as the stars in the sky.

[Italo]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:

> On Mar 16, 3:49 pm, Italo <italo_2...@operamail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Genesis 15 has Dabar-Jahweh as "the Word of Jahweh".
> > Perhaps Dabar, as epithet for Jahweh, is akin to Deborah?
> > (Eblaite Dabir?)

> Good question. I see a possible connection
> if I imagine the act of babtizing a child by wrapping
> it in warming bear fur and holding it up into the light,
> activity of hands DAB fur BIR light RAA. Now picture
> that the bear fur was kept in a sacred shrine called
> DAB BIR ??? that became tabernacle (perhaps
> DAB BIR NYG). When a newborn child was brought
> to the shrine or temple, the priestess took out the
> fur and performed the ceremony. That fur could also
> have played a role in the law, remember that Deborah
> was a judge.

An euhemerized goddess.

> We may pronounce an oath on the Bible,
> they may have pronounced an oath on the sacred fur
> of Deborah. Touching the fur would have meant: I now
> say the truth and nothing but the truth, and if you prove
> me wrong, I deserve severe punishment. Touching the
> sacred fur of Deborah kept in the tabernacle would
> have been the equivalent of speaking the truth,
> as Jahwe is speaking the truth -- being God,
> Jahwe can't but speak the truth, as if holding
> the sacred fur of the mother goddess.

I don't believe that dabar "speech, word" has anything to do with
'Deborah'.
Possibly that Deber ("pestilence, plague") was renamed Deborah "bee,
wasp", by analogy of the "hornet", tsirah, that clears the way for the
conquest of the Canaanites' lands (Ex.23:28, Joshua 24:12, Deut.7:20).
Now tsirah does not only have the meaning 'hornet' but also 'leprosy',
and any other diseases that affect the skin (bubonic plague?).
As such then perhaps a feminine variant of Reseph.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 17, 9:32 pm, Italo <italo_2...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't believe that dabar "speech, word" has anything to do with
> 'Deborah'.
> Possibly that Deber ("pestilence, plague") was renamed Deborah "bee,
> wasp", by analogy of the "hornet", tsirah, that clears the way for the
> conquest of the Canaanites' lands (Ex.23:28, Joshua 24:12, Deut.7:20).
> Now tsirah does not only have the meaning 'hornet' but also 'leprosy',
> and any other diseases that affect the skin (bubonic plague?).
> As such then perhaps a feminine variant of Reseph.

The hypothetical Deborah formula DAP BIR RAA
DAP BIIR RYT implies an archer via RYT, Greek
rhytaer. Consider Apollo who was an archer,
a sun god, god of the fine arts, music and poetry,
bu also a god spreading pestilence with his arrows.
The double formula can be read in a double way,
as I shall explain in my next message.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Mallory and Adams mention "the custom of grasping
some sacred object while one makes an oath (cf.
the practice of swearing with one's hand on the Bible
in a contemporary court)." In earlier times one might
have sworn on the sacred fur of a shaman or a
shamaness in the role of a judge. If the fur was hung
on a pole, in some height, one would have had to raise
the arm in order to touch it, AS BIR, upward AS fur BIR,
upward to the sacred fur, perhaps the origin of English
swear Old English swerian, and of answer, to answer
the questions posed by the judge while reaching upward
to the fur, AS BIR, obliged to tell the truth. Latin veritas
'truth' and verus 'true' may go back to the same BIR,
also English very, verily I say unto you, telling the truth.
A swearing gesture consists in raising the right arm
and three fingers of the right hand. It may keep a distant
memory of three sacred furs hung on the pole of
a shaman or shamaness in the function of a judge.
I raise my hand and touch the three sacred furs,
I swear to tell the truth, all the truth, and nothing but
the truth, by the divine powers present in the three
sacred furs. English true and truth might perhaps
derive from the number of the three sacred furs.
English true is akin to German treu 'faithful'.
As boys and members of the Catholic pathfinders
we were faithful to our penon, a cane with a triangular
flag and a fox tail. When we became soldiers we made
an oath on the Swiss flag. Many pillars on the Göbekli
Tepe are pierced. Klaus Schmidt believes that the holes
were used for hanging up feathers and necklaces and
furs and other shamanistic paraphernalia. The inscription
on the 'neck' of the female central pillar of temple D
contains the hieroglyph of the 'bowl' I read as BIR,
invoking the cosmic fur of BIR GID used in scooping
the primeval hill BIR LAD out of the primeval sea.
The reading BIR is confirmed by the recently discovered
hieroglyph at the base of the same pillar and frontal
face, the 'bowl' going over into the hind body and bushy
tail of a fox. If one of the stone pillar temples served
as a court, the participants in a legal case may have
sworn by the fox tails hung on pillars, and theiir oath
may have been the same formula that invoked the
mother goddess in the baptizing ceremony,
DAP BIR RAA, DAP BIR RYT - may the priestess
of the mother goddess hold the child wrapped in
the sacred fur, hold it up into the light, and may
the mother goddess protect the child held in the
sacred fur. In the legal context, this formula got
another meaning - I touch the sacred fur in full
daylight, for everyone to see, and if I touch the
sacred fur without telling the truth, all the truth
and nothing but the truth, the arrow of the divine
archer may hit me ... Light RAA and archer RYT
are combined in the proverbial lightning that may
struck me if I don't say the truth. RYT means spear
thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'.
The mother goddess as archer can protect her
children, she can also punish someone who lies
in court and is guilty of a crime, she can even punish
a whole tribe with a disease, as the divine archer
Apollo. Deborah as "a mother in Israel" and a judge
would then be a priestess in the tradition of the
Göbekli Tepe (while the hieroglyphic inscription
on the neck of the female central pillar of temple D
anticipates Genesis 1:1 and is complemented by
the complex hieroglyph on the 'neck' of the male
central pillar of temple D, which I explained at length
in previous messages).

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Here is a quote from a website, on Mongolian and
Siberian shamans and their Ongons (tools) made
from different materials including fur. Animal furs
played an important role in shamanism of any kind.
The ancient custom of placing a newborn on a bear
fur survived in parts of the eastern Slavic world
until the twentieth century.

A special site of contact between spirits and
the physical world are Ongons, specially created
houses for spirits. These are beneficial as long
as they are treated with honor. Ongons are one
of the most important shaman tools (spirit house)
in Mongolia and Siberia, and almost all tribes
use them. They come in many different forms;
they can be carved out of wood, painted on leather,
mounted on a wooden hoop or made out of metal.
Materials used to make Ongons are wood, leather,
felt, rocks, paper, fur, feathers, and metal. Some
Ongons are abstract and some resemble dolls.
Most Ongons are occupied by ancestor spirits
or animal spirits, but some contain very powerful
nature spirits. After being quickened, an Ongon
is honored by being placed in the sacred place of
the ger and fed offerings of liquor, blood, milk,or fat.
Two of the most important Ongons which are found
in Mongolian households are Zol Zayaach and Avgaldai.
Zol Zayaach is depicted as a male-female pair and is
a protector of the household and herds; Avgaldai is
a copper mask of the bear ancestor and is occasionally
worn by a shaman in the triennial ominan ritual which
honors all of the spirits and initiates new shamans.
Shamans normally have a large set of Ongons (tools)
which are the house of their helper spirits; in fact the
shaman costume itself is an Ongon of the shaman’s
utha spirit (Heaven power). Special Ongons may be
created for healing and soul retrieval ceremonies and
left with a patient in order to carry on the healing process
and protect the patient’s souls. Temporary Ongons of
wood or grass are sometimes used in rituals to hold
a disease spirit which is then released when the Ongon
is discarded out in nature afterward. Ongons are passed
down from generation to generation because the spirit
will continue to live in them, and neglect of the spirit
may make it turn hostile.

As for the male-female pair: you may remember that
I equated Deborah, or the goddess whose priestess
Deborah in Judges 4 and 5 was, with Artemis of
Ephesos. Her brother was Apollo. Deborah as goddess
would have incorporated features of both Artemis and
Apollo, or, the other way round, the goddess invoked
by the double formula of the double meaning, one
in the baptizing ceremony, and one in the context
of a legal case, DAP BIR RAA, DAP BIR RYT
would have been the ancestor of the later siblings
Artemis and Apollo.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

I don't discuss in my Magdalenian thread, so I answer
questions here. This time Paul J. Kriha's question
about the custom of placing newborns on bear fur.
I told you all in August 2008, and many times since.
Here once again againer againestly. Marija Gimbutas,
in her book Civilization of the Goddess, mentions
the divine bear mother and bear nurse, and says
that a peculiar custom survived in eastern regions
of the Slavic world until the twentieth century, namely,
that grandmothers placed newborns on bear fur,
and this custom is known from ancient Greece,
testified to by Porphyrios of the third century AD.
I mentioned this for the first time in August 2008,
when I established my first Magdalenian test case.
The custom, in my opinion, had been much older,
judging by the divine bear mother and bear nurse
from the Balkans, clay figurines about 6,500 years
old. The longer I look out for derivatives of BIR
the more I find, so this was one of the most productive
Magdalenian words. Bear skulls were deliberately
placed on sort of pedestals in the center of caves,
testifying to long lasting bear cults. In PIE there are
six homonyms *bher- of six different meanings.
I derive all of them from BIR meaning fur. Shamans
used furs for a variety of purposes. A fur on a seat
allowed divination if the seer placed himself or
herself on that seat and fur. Norse berserks smeared
certain herbs inside of fur coats that were then
absorbed by their skin and made them go wild.
The same practice could well account for the *bher-
of medical meaning, a patient wrapped in bear fur
that was coated in a mixture of fat and medical herbs
on the inside, for the patient to absorb through the skin,
and the bear fur kept him warm. Joseph Beuys
survived in Siberia thanks to shamans who oiled his
body and wrapped him in warming felt, he stayed like
this for days, unconscious, until he finally woke up
and was completely restored. Fur played a most
important role in the Paleolithic and Neolithic.
It makes me wonder why nobody aks for traces
of this once paramount topic in language.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Copy of an e-mail I just sent to Paul J. Kriha,
answering the question he posed in my Magdalenian
thread:

I answered your question this morning, not in my
Magdalenian thread (I don't discuss in this thread)
but in the zaftig / zusstig thread, where the discussion
originated, however, Google, let a wong message appear
this morning, not the one I posted (don't know what is
going on there, may have to do with the installation
of the new Google Groups and the new interface
to sci.lang). Unfortunately I didn't copy my reply,
so I can't retrieve it from anywhere. So I make it short.
Consult Marija Gimbutas, The Civilization of the Goddess,
look up the second part about the Neolithic mother cults
and the divine bear mother and bear nurse. A peculiar
custom survived in eastern regions of the Slavic world
until the twentieth century, namely, the grandmother
placed a newborn on a bear fur, and the same custom
was reported by the Greek author Porphyrios in the
third century AD. I said all this many times, beginning
on August 2008 when formulating my first Magdalenian
test case, bear as the furry one v. bear as the brown one.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 19, 4:34 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> I don't discuss in my Magdalenian thread,

So you don't even understand how newsgroups/Usenet work(s)?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Not only do I know how Usenet works now,
but I also anticipate how it will work in a near
future, when the scientific groups may be divided
into several sections, a chatting corner and
a discussing arena and a sector for publishing
ideas, where you can work in peace, without
being disturbed by high speed chatting and by
stalking. I project that future Usenet into the
present, discussing in various threads wherein
I develop my ideas, then gathering the results
in my publishing thread, linking my messages
four levels deep (projecting the future Usenet
into the present interface results in distortions,
comparable to when you project a geometrical
body of four or more dimensions into the plane).

This afternoon, on a program of radio Wisconsin,
To the Best of Our Knowledge, I heard an anthropolgist
mention a 60,000-year old Neanderthal tomb wherein
bear bones have been placed carefully next to the
human body. I thought perhaps the bear mother cult
was already known among Neanderthals? German
Bahre 'hearse' also derives from BIR meaning fur,
especially the fur on which a newborn was placed.
Placing a dead body on a bear fur would then have
invoked the mother goddess to give the dead person
a new life as a child in the beyond, and the bear bones
in the Neanderthal tomb might have had the same
meaning, invoking the divine bear mother in order
to give the defunct a new life in the beyond.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 19, 12:51 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 2:29 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 19, 4:34 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > > I don't discuss in my Magdalenian thread,
>
> > So you don't even understand how newsgroups/Usenet work(s)?
>
> Not only do I know how Usenet works now,
> but I also anticipate how it will work in a near
> future, when the scientific groups may be divided
> into several sections, a chatting corner and
> a discussing arena and a sector for publishing
> ideas, where you can work in peace, without
> being disturbed by high speed chatting and by

if you want the last condition, set up your own Google group, you will
have control of who can post and what.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 19, 12:51 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2:29 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 19, 4:34 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > > I don't discuss in my Magdalenian thread,
>
> > So you don't even understand how newsgroups/Usenet work(s)?
>
> Not only do I know how Usenet works now,
> but I also anticipate how it will work in a near
> future,

The "near future" is already here.

> when the scientific groups may be divided
> into several sections, a chatting corner and

that's called IMing

> a discussing arena

that's called Usenet

> and a sector for publishing
> ideas, where you can work in peace, without

That's called a Web page

> being disturbed by high speed chatting and by

That's called tweeting

> stalking.

That is potentially any of the above, because you cry out for it.

> I project that future Usenet into the
> present, discussing in various threads wherein
> I develop my ideas, then gathering the results
> in my publishing thread, linking my messages
> four levels deep (projecting the future Usenet
> into the present interface results in distortions,
> comparable to when you project a geometrical
> body of four or more dimensions into the plane).

Since you are apparently the only person in the world who does that,
you are probably insane.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 19, 8:57 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Since you are apparently the only person in the world who does that,
> you are probably insane.

Insane because I use a scientific forum as a scientific forum,
and not as a chatroom as most other members of sci.lang?
The Usenet has been invented for me, I see the fantastic
possibilities, a forum where you can develop ideas on a daily
basis. Others would never do that, for they find Usenet
not prestigious enough. In a former time, you were not
considered a scientist when you wrote, say, in vernacular
Italian instead of in Latin. That changed. Also the Usenet
will be regarded differently in a couple of years, or within
a decade. However, it requires an evolved structure, different
interfaces for different groups. A scientific group needs
another interface than, say, a gardening group. Small
dfferences had been allowed by Google in early 2006,
when they introduced proportional font. Members of sci.math
and alt.ascii.drawing or so complained, and it helped,
fixed font was re-installed in sci.math. I could well imagine
different interfaces for different groups, and different virtual
spaces within one and the same group. Everything is possible
in the virtual online world, they told us, even marrying Marilyn
Monroe. I don't want to marry a virtual Marilyn Monroe, but
I ask for a more evolved and developed version of sci.lang
(Google interface to sci.lang). If everything is possible,
I see no reason why this should not be possible.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef/wrote:

>Italian instead of in Latin. That changed. Also the Usenet
>will be regarded differently in a couple of years, or within
>a decade. However, it requires an evolved structure, different
>interfaces for different groups. A scientific group needs
>another interface than, say, a gardening group. Small
>dfferences had been allowed by Google in early 2006,
>when they introduced proportional font.

Again, Google Groups IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT Usenet.

>Members of sci.math
>and alt.ascii.drawing or so complained, and it helped,
>fixed font was re-installed in sci.math.

Google Groups is only one of many user interfaces to Usenet (and
certainly not the best one), in addition to being an archive.

>I could well imagine
>different interfaces for different groups, and different virtual
>spaces within one and the same group. Everything is possible
>in the virtual online world, they told us, even marrying Marilyn
>Monroe. I don't want to marry a virtual Marilyn Monroe, but
>I ask for a more evolved and developed version of sci.lang
>(Google interface to sci.lang). If everything is possible,
>I see no reason why this should not be possible.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 20, 3:43 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 8:57 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Since you are apparently the only person in the world who does that,
> > you are probably insane.
>
> Insane because I use a scientific forum as a scientific forum,
> and not as a chatroom as most other members of sci.lang?
> The Usenet has been invented for me, I see the fantastic
> possibilities, a forum where you can develop ideas on a daily
> basis. Others would never do that, for they find Usenet
> not prestigious enough. In a former time, you were not
> considered a scientist when you wrote, say, in vernacular
> Italian instead of in Latin. That changed. Also the Usenet

Galileo wrote in Italian

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 20, 3:43 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 8:57 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Since you are apparently the only person in the world who does that,
> > you are probably insane.
>
> Insane because I use a scientific forum as a scientific forum,

Where did you get the ideas that (a) it is a scientific forum, and (b)
the way you use it is scientific?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 20, 10:02 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Galileo wrote in Italian

Leonardo da Vinci wrote a vernacular Italian and was
therefore not accepted as a scholar. He didn't care and
said he goes for what others omit and ignore and neglect.
Not a bad policy. I have been told many times that Usenet
is on the decline, will disappear shortly, is not a place
where one would publish insights and ideas. I am of
a different opinion. Usenet is an absoultely fantastic facility,
allowing to develop ideas on a daily basis, and this in
a time when scientific journals can't cope with the
scientific progress anymore, the editor-in-chief of the
American Mathematical monthly once wrote me in a letter
that they must refuse many very good papers, because
they lack the space to publish them. The Usenet is the
answer, for me a dream come through.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 20, 12:36 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Where did you get the ideas that (a) it is a scientific forum, and (b)
> the way you use it is scientific?

It may have escaped your notion that 'sci' in sci.lang
is the abbreviation of scientific, sci.lang means that
this forum is meant to deal with language in scientific
ways, using scientific arguments. I propose scientific ideas,
daring ideas of my own, and that they are worthwhile is
evident to me, because you can't refute them with other
scientific arguments, only and always with meta-arguments
and ad hominems. The scientific way of dealing with my
work is to focus on a claim of mine you find silly, or to go
for one of my four Magdalenian test cases. Recently you
you focused on a claim of mine, for the first time I remember,
but only for a week or so, then you gave up (it was my method
of following sound changes along the arrow of time, over
long and very long periodes of time), and you never went
for one of my four Magdalenian test cases. The new
Magdalenian etymology of Debbora Deborah is part of my
first Magdalenian test case, bear as the furry one versus
bear as the brown one, a further chapter in that story.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Mar 20, 9:04 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> schreef/wrote:

>
> >Italian instead of in Latin. That changed. Also the Usenet
> >will be regarded differently in a couple of years, or within
> >a decade. However, it requires an evolved structure, different
> >interfaces for different groups. A scientific group needs
> >another interface than, say, a gardening group. Small
> >dfferences had been allowed by Google in early 2006,
> >when they introduced proportional font.
>
> Again, Google Groups IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT Usenet.

If you had read my message before replying in a hurry
and a flurry of fingers, you had seen that I included
the Google interface to sci.lang further down in my reply: