english words absorbed into Asian languages during WW2
retrosorter
came into English during WW2 such as kamikaze, gung-ho and boondocks.
Can someone give me some examples of words that Jpanese, Chinese and
Tagalog absorbed from English during the same period?
Thanks
John Atkinson
"retrosorter" <hric...@sympatico.ca> wrote ...
> I'm writing an article that mentions some words of Asian lineage that
> came into English during WW2 such as kamikaze, gung-ho and boondocks.
> Can someone give me some examples of words that Jpanese, Chinese and
Boondocks was borrowed into English by American soldiers stationed in
the Philippines following the Spanish-American War (1898). (There was a
thread on it here some months ago)
John.
Peter T. Daniels
And the New Yorker writer, E. J. Kahn, in A Reporter in Micronesia (or
else another journalist looking into the aftermath of the War there),
stated that it came into English from one of the Caroline Islands
languages during WWII.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
"Jeep" and "jeepney" would seem obvious examples in Tagalog. I have a
large Tagalog dictionary and it lists these as adoptions from English
but does not give a date. The dictionary gives the Tagalog spellings
"dyip", "diyi'p", "dyipni" and "diyipni" ("i'" should be an "i" with an
acute accent indicating stress) but these spellings are rarely seen
outside school books. The spellings "jeep" and "jeepney" are much more
common.
I would expect that a large proportion of the other many English words
used in Tagalog entered in this period but it is hard to confirm since
my dictionary lists only the source of a borrowing and not the date.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
John Atkinson
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote...
> John Atkinson wrote:
> >
> > Boondocks was borrowed into English by American soldiers stationed
in
> > the Philippines following the Spanish-American War (1898). (There
was a
> > thread on it here some months ago)
> > John.
>
> And the New Yorker writer, E. J. Kahn, in A Reporter in Micronesia (or
> else another journalist looking into the aftermath of the War there),
> stated that it came into English from one of the Caroline Islands
> languages during WWII.
You brought that up last time. I thought it was pretty well established
in that thread that Kahn didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground.
It's from Tagalog, and was used in English, especially by the USA
military, for several decades before WWII.
J.
Nigel Greenwood
Quite a number of Eng words entered Chinese before WW2 (eg Mai4ke4feng1
= microphone; Ka3che1 = "car" vehicle = truck).
Then there's the Indonesian Buset (= hell!/damn!), which I believe
comes from Bullshit.
Nigel
--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk
Mary Cassidy
>
> Then there's the Indonesian Buset (= hell!/damn!), which I believe
> comes from Bullshit.
>
> Nigel
There's also "bangkrut", which means "bankrupt" - don't know whether it
comes directly from English or from Dutch, though.
--
Mary
Steven (remove wax and invalid for reply)
That reminds me ... in some Andean countries in South America (Peru,
Bolivia) a farm tractor is usually called a "yondil". The first
tractors sold there came from the John Deere company. Not sure it's in
the dictionary, but it's on the signs outside the dealerships.
--
Steven M
Evertjan.
> There's also "bangkrut", which means "bankrupt" - don't know whether it
> comes directly from English or from Dutch, though.
>
Dutch: "bankroet" from
Italian: "bancarotta" [Broken bank] from
Latin: "bancus ruptus"
btw:
French: banqueroute
German: Bankrott
Russian: something like that
Spanish: bancarrota
etc.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)
Nathan
Nigel Greenwood wrote:
> Then there's the Indonesian Buset (= hell!/damn!), which I believe
> comes from Bullshit.
This reminds me of the claim I once read that some Filipinos named
their children Ababis (with final stress), in honor of San Ababis,
the saint to whom American GIs were heard to cry out in stressful
moments. Sorry, I have no source.
Harlan Messinger
Likely the latter, since that represents the pronunciation of the Dutch
"bankroet". (The second syllable sounds like English "root").
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I don't know Kahn and cannot comment on his claims but my Tagalog
dictionary lists "bundo'k" as if it is a native word. I checked with a
couple of Filipinos today and they do not regard it as foreign. It
participates in Tagalog grammar as if it were native e.g.
"ma'mumundo'k" = "mountaineer". (The ' marks should be read as acute
accents on the preceding vowel).
The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a similar
sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
manner.
"Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt the
word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Peter T. Daniels
>
> John Atkinson wrote:
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote...
> > > John Atkinson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Boondocks was borrowed into English by American soldiers stationed in
> > > > the Philippines following the Spanish-American War (1898). (There was a
> > > > thread on it here some months ago)
> > > > John.
> > >
> > > And the New Yorker writer, E. J. Kahn, in A Reporter in Micronesia (or
> > > else another journalist looking into the aftermath of the War there),
> > > stated that it came into English from one of the Caroline Islands
> > > languages during WWII.
> >
> > You brought that up last time. I thought it was pretty well established
> > in that thread that Kahn didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground.
> > It's from Tagalog, and was used in English, especially by the USA
> > military, for several decades before WWII.
> >
> > J.
>
> I don't know Kahn and cannot comment on his claims but my Tagalog
> dictionary lists "bundo'k" as if it is a native word. I checked with a
> couple of Filipinos today and they do not regard it as foreign. It
> participates in Tagalog grammar as if it were native e.g.
> "ma'mumundo'k" = "mountaineer". (The ' marks should be read as acute
> accents on the preceding vowel).
Why would a Tagalog word not have a cognate in a Micronesian language?
I.e., what's your point? No one is suggesting Tagalog borrowed it from
English or anywhere else.
> The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a similar
> sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
> manner.
>
> "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt the
> word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
Were there British soldiers in the North Pacific during WWII?
benlizross
It becomes ever clearer that E.J.Kahn was (in Bogart's words)
"misinformed". Consider: Even the OED, which is not exactly up with the
play on this one, has a citation from a book published in 1944 referring
to "the sand and boondocks of Paris Island [South Carolina, major US
Marine base]". At this time the US forces were still fighting bloody
battles to take Micronesia from the Japanese. Ponape, mentioned in
connection with Kahn's experience, was not occupied by the Americans
until after the Japanese surrender in 1945. There is no way a loanword
from there or elsewhere in the Carolines could have been adopted,
domesticated and found its way into print by 1944.
Ross Clark
J. W. Love
> Even the OED, which is not exactly up with the play on this one, has
> a citation from a book published in 1944 referring to "the sand and
> boondocks of Paris Island [South Carolina, major US Marine base]".
FYI, Ross: it's usually given as _Parris Island._
Fernando Moreiras (Rosetta)
containing explosives, and they were named after an Indian city. Dunno if it
was borrowed during WWII, but it is in fact used in a WWII game...
DF
"retrosorter" <hric...@sympatico.ca> escribió en el mensaje
news:1116335662.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Geoff
> A word I learnt playing Medal of Honor: "bangalore". It is a metal tube
> containing explosives, and they were named after an Indian city. Dunno if it
> was borrowed during WWII, but it is in fact used in a WWII game...
>
> DF
Short for "Bangalore torpedo."
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Bangalore_Torpedo
rrh...@acme.com
The September 12, 1943 New York Times has a review of _Out in the
Boondocks: Marines in Action in the Pacific_. The review says that
"'Boondocks' is a marine word that is as puzzling as it is pure. A
marine is 'out in the boondocks' when he is practicing his profession
in far places which are meanly endowed with comforts, overgrown with
vegetation and overpopulated with savage enemies."
The earliest citation of 'boondocks' in ProQuest historical newspapers
database is an ad for Camel cigarettes from April 12, 1943: "In the
marines they say: 'walkie-talkie' ...for signalman with portable 2-way
radio set 'boondocks' ...for wild country--outposts 'ding how' ...for
very good 'camel' ... for the favorite cigarette with men in the
Marines" (ellipses in the original). There is also a picture of an
improbably happy Marine exclaiming "Camels sure are DING HOW! They're
EXTRA MILD and that RICH FLAVOR holds up pack after pack." Ah, the
good old days!
Richard R. Hershberger
rrh...@acme.com
As an additional point of information, the US forces didn't land in the
Carolines until mid-1944. The US military had no signficant
involvement in that area prior to the war. The Carolines had been a
German possession prior to WWI, and Japan had the League of Nations
mandate there between the wars.
Richard R. Hershberger
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I was not making a point, is that required? I was just supplying some
data that others may find useful.
Of course, the Tagalog word could be a cognate of your unspecified word
in an unspecified Micronesian language. On the other hand, it could
also be the source of "boondocks" itself. If it is a cognate of the
real source then it is one that matches the English word at least as
well.
What is the actual word and language that you believe to be the source
of "boondocks"? Why are you so confident that it is the source rather
than the Tagalog word? There were a lot of Americans in the
Philippines before, during, and after the war.
Is there necessarily only one correct answer? Is it not possible that
some Americans took it from one place and others from another?
> > The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a
similar
> > sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
> > manner.
> >
> > "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt
the
> > word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
>
> Were there British soldiers in the North Pacific during WWII?
I am not familiar with that area of WWII history. My guess would be
that few, if any, British soldiers were in the area. Certainly much
fewer than Americans. Anyway, even if there were many Brits there,
they may not have found this a useful word to import into their own
language. The only fact that I am claiming here is that I heard this
word in Tagalog before I heard it in English. When later, I heard it
from an American, I was surprised since he did not have any connection
to the Philippines. It turned out that he was unaware of a Filipino
connection or its true source (if different).
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Peter T. Daniels
> > > I don't know Kahn and cannot comment on his claims but my Tagalog
> > > dictionary lists "bundo'k" as if it is a native word. I checked with a
> > > couple of Filipinos today and they do not regard it as foreign. It
> > > participates in Tagalog grammar as if it were native e.g.
> > > "ma'mumundo'k" = "mountaineer". (The ' marks should be read as acute
> > > accents on the preceding vowel).
(Why not just type á ó?)
> > Why would a Tagalog word not have a cognate in a Micronesian language?
> > I.e., what's your point? No one is suggesting Tagalog borrowed it from
> > English or anywhere else.
>
> I was not making a point, is that required? I was just supplying some
> data that others may find useful.
Usually when one supplies data, one does so for a reason! And your
uncertainty as to its status -- "as if it is a native word," "do not
regard it as foreign" -- suggests you were entertaining the possibility
that Tagalog got it from English (or elsewhere) recently.
> Of course, the Tagalog word could be a cognate of your unspecified word
> in an unspecified Micronesian language. On the other hand, it could
> also be the source of "boondocks" itself. If it is a cognate of the
> real source then it is one that matches the English word at least as
> well.
>
> What is the actual word and language that you believe to be the source
> of "boondocks"? Why are you so confident that it is the source rather
> than the Tagalog word? There were a lot of Americans in the
> Philippines before, during, and after the war.
I read it in a book.
Whichever book it was -- I read a lot about Micronesia about 15 years
ago -- left the impression that in whichever Micronesian language was
cited, the meaning was a better match than is the Tagalog meaning you
cite.
> Is there necessarily only one correct answer? Is it not possible that
> some Americans took it from one place and others from another?
It would be unlikely to be borrowed in exactly the same form and meaning
on two separate occasions. The sense 'mountain/large hill' isn't
particularly close to the American sense of 'out in the middle of
nowhere'.
> > > The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a similar
> > > sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
> > > manner.
> > >
> > > "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt the
> > > word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
> >
> > Were there British soldiers in the North Pacific during WWII?
>
> I am not familiar with that area of WWII history. My guess would be
> that few, if any, British soldiers were in the area. Certainly much
Then it's not surprising that the word isn't known in Britain.
> fewer than Americans. Anyway, even if there were many Brits there,
> they may not have found this a useful word to import into their own
> language. The only fact that I am claiming here is that I heard this
> word in Tagalog before I heard it in English. When later, I heard it
> from an American, I was surprised since he did not have any connection
> to the Philippines. It turned out that he was unaware of a Filipino
> connection or its true source (if different).
Americans, perhaps mistakenly, associate it with the North Pacific
campaign.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
>
> > > > I don't know Kahn and cannot comment on his claims but my
Tagalog
> > > > dictionary lists "bundo'k" as if it is a native word. I
checked with a
> > > > couple of Filipinos today and they do not regard it as foreign.
It
> > > > participates in Tagalog grammar as if it were native e.g.
> > > > "ma'mumundo'k" = "mountaineer". (The ' marks should be read as
acute
> > > > accents on the preceding vowel).
>
> (Why not just type á ó?)
I frequently see the accents in my signature mangled so I tried to
avoid the problem.
> > > Why would a Tagalog word not have a cognate in a Micronesian
language?
> > > I.e., what's your point? No one is suggesting Tagalog borrowed it
from
> > > English or anywhere else.
> >
> > I was not making a point, is that required? I was just supplying
some
> > data that others may find useful.
>
> Usually when one supplies data, one does so for a reason! And your
> uncertainty as to its status -- "as if it is a native word," "do not
> regard it as foreign" -- suggests you were entertaining the
possibility
> that Tagalog got it from English (or elsewhere) recently.
I saw a disagreement about the origin of this word. I was able to
supply some information about it. I don't always have an ulterior
motive for my actions. Do you?
The uncertainty was because I do not have strong evidence of its native
status. My dictionary does not state a source but I am not sure if it
would if the source was not European. The Filipinos I have asked
regard it as a native word. If that is enough for you then I am
certain that it is native. Since I am an amateur in this field, I try
to avoid strong claims. I certainly was not suggesting that "bundok"
was a borrowing into Tagalog.
> > Of course, the Tagalog word could be a cognate of your unspecified
word
> > in an unspecified Micronesian language. On the other hand, it
could
> > also be the source of "boondocks" itself. If it is a cognate of
the
> > real source then it is one that matches the English word at least
as
> > well.
> >
> > What is the actual word and language that you believe to be the
source
> > of "boondocks"? Why are you so confident that it is the source
rather
> > than the Tagalog word? There were a lot of Americans in the
> > Philippines before, during, and after the war.
>
> I read it in a book.
And you believe everything that you read in every book?
> Whichever book it was -- I read a lot about Micronesia about 15 years
> ago -- left the impression that in whichever Micronesian language was
> cited, the meaning was a better match than is the Tagalog meaning you
> cite.
You don't remember the book, the claimed language, or the claimed word
yet you are still sure that it is correct?
> > Is there necessarily only one correct answer? Is it not possible
that
> > some Americans took it from one place and others from another?
>
> It would be unlikely to be borrowed in exactly the same form and
meaning
> on two separate occasions. The sense 'mountain/large hill' isn't
> particularly close to the American sense of 'out in the middle of
> nowhere'.
The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain but it is also used
when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The Filipinos that I have
asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting with their usage,
just more restricted. If you heard an English speaker say: "He is from
the hills", would you not interpret as being similar to: "from the
middle of nowhere / boondocks". If two sources are not possible then I
would feel that Tagalog has the better claim (just my non-expert
opinion).
> > > > The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a
similar
> > > > sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more
prosaic
> > > > manner.
> > > >
> > > > "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I
learnt the
> > > > word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
> > >
> > > Were there British soldiers in the North Pacific during WWII?
> >
> > I am not familiar with that area of WWII history. My guess would
be
> > that few, if any, British soldiers were in the area. Certainly
much
>
> Then it's not surprising that the word isn't known in Britain.
Or we feel that the need is well met by the expression: "The middle of
nowhere". Even when there is significant contact, not all words are
borrowed. There was significant contact between the Brits and the
Indians but not all Hindi and Tamil words were adopted into English.
> > fewer than Americans. Anyway, even if there were many Brits there,
> > they may not have found this a useful word to import into their own
> > language. The only fact that I am claiming here is that I heard
this
> > word in Tagalog before I heard it in English. When later, I heard
it
> > from an American, I was surprised since he did not have any
connection
> > to the Philippines. It turned out that he was unaware of a
Filipino
> > connection or its true source (if different).
>
> Americans, perhaps mistakenly, associate it with the North Pacific
> campaign.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
mvil...@gmail.com
[snip]
>
> It would be unlikely to be borrowed in exactly the same form
> and meaning
> on two separate occasions. The sense 'mountain/large hill' isn't
> particularly close to the American sense of 'out in the middle of
> nowhere'.
>
"Bundok" in the strictest sense of the noun in Tagalog means "mountain"
in english. But there are really no mountains in Philippines, just
some fairly large ranges of foothills covered with thick jungle canopy.
If you were to picture the Rice Terraces of Banaue minus the
terraforming then that's pretty much as "mountainous" the Philippines
gets.
In colloquial usage "bundok" can admittedly be used as a noun
representing a geologic feature:
"Ang laki ng bundok"
(What a huge mountain.)
But more often it is used as a noun representing a location, with the
intended meaning of referring to some faraway place that is very
inaccessible and detached from the rest of normal society.
"Tingnan mo ang kutis at makinig ka sa usap niya, baka galing siya sa
bundok."
(Look at his complexion and listen to his speech, maybe he is from the
mountains.)
"Walang hiya ang mga NPA, dapat huwag na sila mag riklamo, bumaba na
lang sila sa tinatagoan nilang bundok at tulungan na lang nila ang mga
tao."
(The NPA has no shame, they should just stop complaining, come down
from the mountains they are hiding in and help the people.)
Finally, if you wanted to call a Filipino a "redneck" then you would
say that he was "taga bundok" meaning he's "from the mountains."
"Bundok" in Tagalog can and is used in the same way as one would use
"boondocks" in English.
benlizross
Yes, though frequently enough mis-spelled, apparently even by Marines.
The single-r spelling is what appears in OED.
Ross Clark
benlizross
Thanks for the interesting quotes. A few small points.
- You're right to point out that, apart from Guam (which it took from
Spain in 1898) the US had no official role in Micronesia pre-WWII - no
colonial administration, no troops stationed there.
- Refreshing my own recollection of the chronology, I would put the
occupation of the Carolines even later. They appear to have hopped
straight from Kwajalein and the Marshalls (February 1944) to the far
west -- Saipan and Tinian (June), Guam (July) and Palau (Sept-Nov). And
from there on to the Philippines and Japan. From what I was able to
gather, they did not even occupy the islands in between until after the
Japanese surrender in 1945.
- I've finally had a chance to check Blust and the Micronesian
dictionaries I have on hand, and there are no cognates of Tagalog bundok
(mountain) outside the Philippines.
- What seems clearly to have happened (which your quotes help to
confirm) is that this was picked up in the Philippines in the post
Spanish-American war period, but remained strictly USMC slang until the
40s, which explains the dearth of early quotes. It must have broken out
into general usage, at least in North America, after the war, since it
was well known by the late 50s, when I would have learned it, in Canada,
having no particular connection to the Marines or even to the USA.
Ross Clark
J. W. Love
> - What seems clearly to have happened (which your quotes help to
> confirm) is that this was picked up in the Philippines in the post
> Spanish-American war period, but remained strictly USMC slang until
the
> 40s, which explains the dearth of early quotes. It must have broken
out
> into general usage, at least in North America, after the war, since
it
> was well known by the late 50s, when I would have learned it, in
Canada,
> having no particular connection to the Marines or even to the USA.
Pretty much my experience (in Florida), and I'd guess _boonies_ came
later.
FWIW, Merriam-Webster claims to know of a use of _boondocks_ from 1925.
Peter T. Daniels
> The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain but it is also used
> when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The Filipinos that I have
> asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting with their usage,
> just more restricted. If you heard an English speaker say: "He is from
> the hills", would you not interpret as being similar to: "from the
> middle of nowhere / boondocks".
No. I'd think it referred literally to that rolling higher ground over
there, or else to a cultural group of "hillbillies."
Peter T. Daniels
They used, at least, to say that if you inquired about the datum behind
the date, they'd supply it.
benlizross
I think "middle of nowhere" is a somewhat misleading gloss. Better
"rough country; jungle; an isolated or wild region" (OED), or "remote
places, rural regions" (Chapman). Relative to where most people live,
the mountains are uncultivated, unpopulated, uncivilized and difficult
of access. It is no accident that "hillbillies" live there. Of course,
to a big-city person such as yourself, such places are "nowhere", or
"I-don't-know-where". And of course the meaning is quite capable of
broadening: if the words of the 1965 pop song "Down in the boondocks"
reflect actual usage, it could just refer to the wrong side of town.
Ross Clark
John Atkinson
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote...
> J. W. Love wrote:
Here's what I said last year when you made the same claim (according to
Google Groups):
[begin quote]
John Atkinson May 8 2004, 3:51 pm
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english, sci.lang
Subject: Re: hustings
"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote...
> Robert Lipton wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > "Boondocks" entered (American) English from a Micronesian
language,
> > > during WWII.
The earliest citation in American English seems to be 1909.
[Sorry, I can't remember where I got this, but I'm sure Google knows.
JA, 2005]
> > Tagalog, according to Partridge.
According to just about everyone else too. Here's a quote from one of
the
more detailed ones (turoturo.com):
"The Tagalog word bundok: (pronounced boon-DOCK, stress on the last
syllable) is a noun, meaning mountain or a very high hill. It also means
Mount. Bundok ng Makiling means Mount Makiling. Kabundukan is a
descriptive
word for mountain fastness or mountain ranges. Taga-bundok means a
person
who lives in the mountains, indigenous (uncivilized as the Christianized
world would say) and primitive. Its antonym is taga-bukid, a person from
the
plain fields - primitive, simple but civilized into Christianity.
Gabundok
is a metaphor for hugeness, as in gabundok na alon, a mountainous wave.
Ma
mundok is to foray into the mountains. Bulubundukin means wild, heavily
forested, mountainous area. [...]"
It goes on to explain in rather fanciful detail how the word may have
got
into English during the American-Philipino war, around 1898.
[end quote]
15 or 20 posts later in the thread, PTD closed the discussion with (on
10 May 04):
When I got Kahn's book in my hands, I realized it wasn't where I'd read
the discussion of "boondocks." I had an eidetic memory of a
library-style brown buckram binding, with the soft paper that was
popular in the 1950s. I don't have any such book on my Micronesia
shelves, so it must have actually come from a library, probably in
Chicago, possibly CPL but more likely U of C. Sorry!
--
Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Thanks. I was considering developing some examples but I could not
have done a job as good as that.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I did not intend to suggest that "middle of nowhere" was an exact
translation but only that the phrases are liable to be used in similar
circumstances. When a Filipino is likely to say: "We are in the
boondocks", I would probably say: "We are in the middle of nowhere".
In both cases, we just mean that we are far from what we regard as
civilisation. If your home is Manila then most of the rest of country
may be the boondocks.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
benlizross
>
> benlizross wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >
> > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> > >
> > > > The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain but it is also
> used
> > > > when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The Filipinos that I
> have
> > > > asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting with their
> usage,
> > > > just more restricted. If you heard an English speaker say: "He
> is from
> > > > the hills", would you not interpret as being similar to: "from
> the
> > > > middle of nowhere / boondocks".
> > >
> > > No. I'd think it referred literally to that rolling higher ground
> over
> > > there, or else to a cultural group of "hillbillies."
> > > --
> > > Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
> >
> > I think "middle of nowhere" is a somewhat misleading gloss. Better
> > places, rural regions" (Chapman). Relative to where most people live,
> > the mountains are uncultivated, unpopulated, uncivilized and
> difficult
> > of access. It is no accident that "hillbillies" live there. Of
> course,
> > to a big-city person such as yourself, such places are "nowhere", or
> > "I-don't-know-where". And of course the meaning is quite capable of
> > broadening: if the words of the 1965 pop song "Down in the boondocks"
> > reflect actual usage, it could just refer to the wrong side of town.
> >
> > Ross Clark
>
> I did not intend to suggest that "middle of nowhere" was an exact
> translation but only that the phrases are liable to be used in similar
> circumstances. When a Filipino is likely to say: "We are in the
> boondocks", I would probably say: "We are in the middle of nowhere".
> In both cases, we just mean that we are far from what we regard as
> civilisation. If your home is Manila then most of the rest of country
> may be the boondocks.
>
> --
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Actually the "middle of nowhere" gloss was originally given by Peter,
who was claiming to see no connection between that and "mountain". So my
remarks were directed at him; I don't think you and I disagree.
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
"Boondocks" suggests featureless, flat terrain -- the Great Plains, the
Badlands, the scrubland; or the jungle.
American mountains are a goal, sometimes a sacred place, a topos in
painting, photography, and literature -- not, though, "the middle of
nowhere." Contrast the OED and the Chapman definitions!
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Is there a large difference between a hillbilly and someone from the
boondocks? Even if there was, a city slicker would probably not care.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
In the Philippines, I don't think that the mountains are so special.
Maybe a nice place for a short break but not sacred. I am not
suggesting that English adopted the full range of meanings of Tagalog
bundok, just the remote from civilisation one. An American's notion of
remote from civilisation may be quite different to that of a Filipino.
Do you still think that boondocks comes from an unknown word of an
unknown language which you read in an unknown book by an unknown
author?
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Peter T. Daniels
Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are alien,
harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern Europeans.
There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
> Do you still think that boondocks comes from an unknown word of an
> unknown language which you read in an unknown book by an unknown
> author?
If it'll feed your bias, sure.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> >
> > > The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain but it is also used
> > > when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The Filipinos that I have
> > > asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting with their usage,
> > > just more restricted. If you heard an English speaker say: "He is from
> > > the hills", would you not interpret as being similar to: "from the
> > > middle of nowhere / boondocks".
> >
> > No. I'd think it referred literally to that rolling higher ground over
> > there, or else to a cultural group of "hillbillies."
> Is there a large difference between a hillbilly and someone from the
> boondocks? Even if there was, a city slicker would probably not care.
No one is _from_ the boondocks. There's no there there to _be_ from. And
they're not hills (or mountains).
rrh...@acme.com
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> "Boondocks" suggests featureless, flat terrain -- the Great Plains,
the
> Badlands, the scrubland; or the jungle.
I take it you have never visited Badlands National Park.
http://www.roadnoise.com/photos/badlands.jpg shows its typical terrain:
hardly featureless or flat.
Richard R. Hershberger
David Wright Sr.
news:428DF5...@worldnet.att.net:
(snip)
> No one is _from_ the boondocks. There's no there there to _be_ from. And
> they're not hills (or mountains).
>
Excuse me. Can you please explain this? I know a lot of 'hillbillies' who
live in the 'mountains' way up in the 'boondocks', as opposed to my 'flatland
cousins', who live way out in the 'boondocks'.
--
David Wright Sr.
http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/index.html
To e-mail me, remove 't' from dwrightsr
rrh...@acme.com
Perhaps in your use of the word. As a proud graduate of Twentynine
Palms High School, I characterize myself as from the boondocks. Google
on 'twentynine' and 'palms' and 'boondocks' and you will find I am not
alone in this opinion. Note in particular at
http://home.att.net/~uncamarvy/4Palms/4palms.html this:
'"We called ourselves, the Five Boondockers..." Since "boondocks" means
somewhere out in the backwoods, away from all civilization, it was a
fitting name for a group from Twentynine Palms.'
Richard R. Hershberger
Colin Fine
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>
>
> I think "middle of nowhere" is a somewhat misleading gloss. Better
> "rough country; jungle; an isolated or wild region" (OED), or "remote
> places, rural regions" (Chapman). Relative to where most people live,
> the mountains are uncultivated, unpopulated, uncivilized and difficult
> of access. It is no accident that "hillbillies" live there. Of course,
> to a big-city person such as yourself, such places are "nowhere", or
> "I-don't-know-where". And of course the meaning is quite capable of
> broadening: if the words of the 1965 pop song "Down in the boondocks"
> reflect actual usage, it could just refer to the wrong side of town.
>
Fiction (probably Heinlein) I imagined an urban wasteland - probably
suggested by 'docks'.
Colin
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
<snip>
> > In the Philippines, I don't think that the mountains are so
special.
> > Maybe a nice place for a short break but not sacred. I am not
> > suggesting that English adopted the full range of meanings of
Tagalog
> > bundok, just the remote from civilisation one. An American's
notion of
> > remote from civilisation may be quite different to that of a
Filipino.
>
> Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are
alien,
> harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern
Europeans.
> There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
>
> > Do you still think that boondocks comes from an unknown word of an
> > unknown language which you read in an unknown book by an unknown
> > author?
>
> If it'll feed your bias, sure.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
My bias? Several people have presented problems with your theory yet
you stick to it. And it is you who likes to bash Britain so much. Who
is the biased one here?
Was Middle Earth in Britain? I though that it was in New Zealand. (*)
(*) Warning, joke. The real location is Birmingham, close to here.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:428DE8...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
[...]
> "Boondocks" suggests featureless, flat terrain -- the Great Plains, the
> Badlands, the scrubland; or the jungle.
Not to me. To me it merely suggests distance from
civilization. And I don't think that I'd describe jungle as
featureless, precisely, let alone the Badlands.
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
Only in the movies. It's flat with jagged protuberances and chasms. Bad.
rrh...@acme.com
Of course the same thing can be said for the Grand Canyon and the
Rockies. It's not my idea of a useful definition, but your mileage
apparently varies from mine.
Prai Jei
message <1116447107.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a similar
> sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
> manner.
>
> "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt the
> word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
The only time I have seen the word is in the country song "Down in the
Boondocks" sung by Lynn Anderson. It has definitely *not* been adopted into
the Queen's English. From the context of the song it seemed to be the
equivalent of what another song would call "the wrong side of town", but
that does not seem to click with the now-revealed original meaning of the
word.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
benlizross
Geez, Peter, you sound like a literary critic, and you probably have the
utter self-assurance that goes with it, so I won't try to argue with
your grandiloquent generalizations about "American mountains" (and
British mountains), highly disputable though they are. I will accept
them as testimony that _for you_ there is no conceptual connection
between "boondocks" and mountains. And that's entirely possible, a
century after the word entered the language. What I am trying to get you
to do is to step outside the world of Peter T.Daniels 2005 and see that
there is in fact a plausible semantic connection between the Tagalog
word for "mountain", as it would have been heard by US Marines ca.1900,
and the various senses of "boondock" which we have seen developing in
American English.
Ross Clark
Geoff
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
> message <1116447107.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>
>
>>The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a similar
>>sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more prosaic
>>manner.
>>
>>"Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I learnt the
>>word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
>
>
> The only time I have seen the word is in the country song "Down in the
> Boondocks" sung by Lynn Anderson. It has definitely *not* been adopted into
> the Queen's English. From the context of the song it seemed to be the
> equivalent of what another song would call "the wrong side of town", but
> that does not seem to click with the now-revealed original meaning of the
> word.
Maybe not the Queen's, but certainly into my mother's. The bondocks in
her dialect means way off in the middle of nowhere: "He's from way out
in the boondocks someplace."
Peter T. Daniels
1900 is a century closer to discourse of "the beautiful" and "the
sublime" -- which originated, incidentally, with Ruskin in England in
IIRC 1847, exalting the Gothic over the Classical -- which was a
philosophy that captured the Hudson River School painters of that era: a
school that had a branch in (are you ready for this) New Zealand. (There
was a fascinating show at the Corcoran some years ago, that paired
famous paintings by Cole, Church, etc., with their lesser known
counterparts from the Antipodes.)
Before the Hudson River School painters were thrilled by the Catskills,
they painted Niagara Falls; and then they went west and painted the
Rockies. New Zealand has such terrain (as Mr. Jackson has displayed on
the wide screen), but England doesn't. Nor does the Philippines. The
connotations of mountains are different here, and they don't include
"boondock"hood.
benlizross
OK, I take it back, an art critic. Once again, I will leave it to others
to dispute your dogmatic statements about matters you know little of.
So on the basis of this slide-show, you have managed to convince
yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology which
derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on the
testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and place
which the documentary record shows to be impossible?
Ross Clark
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:428E9C...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
[...]
> Before the Hudson River School painters were thrilled by
> the Catskills, they painted Niagara Falls; and then they
> went west and painted the Rockies. New Zealand has such
> terrain (as Mr. Jackson has displayed on the wide
> screen), but England doesn't. Nor does the Philippines.
> The connotations of mountains are different here, and
> they don't include "boondock"hood.
The primary connotation of 'boondocks' and 'boonies' is
distance from the trappings of civilization, which one can
certainly achieve in the mountains, yea, even in the Rockies
and Himalayas.
Brian
rrh...@acme.com
He seems to have backed off slightly from the Caroline Island claim,
without actually saying so or presenting any coherent thought on the
subject. I took this as his graceful way of admitting he was wrong, so
that he could move on to being wrong about other things (badlands
necessarily being flat, for example).
Richard R. Hershberger
benlizross
Maybe you're right.
For those who are following this, let me post the compilation of
citations. Since they came from different directions, it was getting
hard to keep track of them all:
1909:
|| bun-doc' Also bondoc. [Tag..] A mountain. Also, in colloq. English
(usually pl., pronounced bun'dooks), the hills and woods in general; the
wilds; any place at a distance from a center of population. Phil.I.
- Webster's New International Dictionary
1927:
By we, I mean the remainder of the 57th Company, 11th Regiment,
Marines, and I'm writing this to tell you that though we may be
situated away out here in the "Boondocks" of Nicaragua, we held up
the good old traditional Fourth.
- Leatherneck, September 1927 [ProQuest, posted by Evan Kirshenbaum
2004/5/9]
1943:
In the marines they say: 'walkie-talkie' ...for signalman with portable
2-way radio set 'boondocks' ...for wild country--outposts 'ding how'
...for very good 'camel' ... for the favorite cigarette with men in the
Marines" (ellipses in the original).
- Advertisement for Camel cigarettes, April 12, 1943 [from ProQuest
historical newspapers database, posted by Richard R.Hershberger
2005/5/20]
1944:
- The sand and boondocks of Paris Island.
- C. WYNN in C. Metcalf Marine Corps Reader III. 139 [cited in OED
Online]
One interesting point is the pronunciation given by Webster I.
I couldn't manage the diacritics on their phonetic notation, but the
first syllable (stressed) is "bun", and the second rhymes with "hooks".
The stress has shifted, but the vowels are not as we know them.
I also find it interesting that this remained within the USMC for a good
40 years before it became generally known. War or no war, the military
have a certain continuity of tradition. I remember how when Vietnam war
slang began to be discussed there were a number of items ("hooch",
"mama-san") which had clearly been passed down from (post-) WWII
Japanese.
BTW, I guess "ding how" is Chinese, dating from the same period as "gung
ho"? What's the "ding" part? (Could the old "Ding Ho" restaurant in
Vancouver have had the same origin? muse...mumble...good night
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
slide-show? I have never seen a slide-show on this.
> yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
> about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology which
> derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on the
> testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and place
> which the documentary record shows to be impossible?
Where do I exhibit such a "preference"?
Peter T. Daniels
> that he could move on to being wrong about other things (badlands
> necessarily being flat, for example).
"necessarily"?
Peter T. Daniels
Do you have any examples of mountains being called boondocks?
Prai Jei
<D5wje.4084$Lc1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>:
The meaning would therefore be "rough, uncivilised country" and an
equivalent UK English expression would be "out in the sticks".
Geoff
> BTW, I guess "ding how" is Chinese, dating from the same period as "gung
> ho"? What's the "ding" part? (Could the old "Ding Ho" restaurant in
> Vancouver have had the same origin? muse...mumble...good night
>
In ding3 hao3, ding3 頂 (more literally the top of one's head) works
like "very" or "extremely."
Brian M. Scott
<pvsto...@zyx-abc.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
<news:d6nj1i$nat$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> in sci.lang:
[...]
> The meaning would therefore be "rough, uncivilised country" and an
> equivalent UK English expression would be "out in the sticks".
Also used in the U.S.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:428F41...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2005 02:29:32 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>> <news:428E9C...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>>> Before the Hudson River School painters were thrilled by
>>> the Catskills, they painted Niagara Falls; and then they
>>> went west and painted the Rockies. New Zealand has such
>>> terrain (as Mr. Jackson has displayed on the wide
>>> screen), but England doesn't. Nor does the Philippines.
>>> The connotations of mountains are different here, and
>>> they don't include "boondock"hood.
>> The primary connotation of 'boondocks' and 'boonies' is
>> distance from the trappings of civilization, which one can
>> certainly achieve in the mountains, yea, even in the Rockies
>> and Himalayas.
> Do you have any examples of mountains being called boondocks?
I have certainly heard people say of someone who lived in
isolation in the mountains that he lived out in the
boondocks or out in the boonies.
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 14:12:35 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> <news:428F41...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2005 02:29:32 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> >> <news:428E9C...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> >>> Before the Hudson River School painters were thrilled by
> >>> the Catskills, they painted Niagara Falls; and then they
> >>> went west and painted the Rockies. New Zealand has such
> >>> terrain (as Mr. Jackson has displayed on the wide
> >>> screen), but England doesn't. Nor does the Philippines.
> >>> The connotations of mountains are different here, and
> >>> they don't include "boondock"hood.
>
> >> The primary connotation of 'boondocks' and 'boonies' is
> >> distance from the trappings of civilization, which one can
> >> certainly achieve in the mountains, yea, even in the Rockies
> >> and Himalayas.
>
> > Do you have any examples of mountains being called boondocks?
>
> I have certainly heard people say of someone who lived in
> isolation in the mountains that he lived out in the
> boondocks or out in the boonies.
I think "boonies" has severed its connection with "boondocks." "Boonies"
is just slang for 'not sivilized', i.e. rural or suburban, but
"boondocks" is fairly specific.
benlizross
Forgive me, O Literalist, this was my term for your divagation on art
history, as if the Philippines had been occupied by battalions of
landscape painters.
>
> > yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
> > about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology which
> > derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on the
> > testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and place
> > which the documentary record shows to be impossible?
>
> Where do I exhibit such a "preference"?
So you don't actually prefer the Micronesian theory?
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
> > > OK, I take it back, an art critic. Once again, I will leave it to others
> > > to dispute your dogmatic statements about matters you know little of.
> > > So on the basis of this slide-show, you have managed to convince
> >
> > slide-show? I have never seen a slide-show on this.
>
> Forgive me, O Literalist, this was my term for your divagation on art
> history, as if the Philippines had been occupied by battalions of
> landscape painters.
Not the Philippines. New Zealand.
Did you overlook the fact that I saw an exhibit of NZ landscape
paintings alongside Hudson River School paintings a few years ago?
And have read quite a bit on the Hudson River School. I've seen some of
Church's paintings in three different places, not including their home
base at his own mansion in upstate New York.
> > > yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
> > > about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology which
> > > derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on the
> > > testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and place
> > > which the documentary record shows to be impossible?
> >
> > Where do I exhibit such a "preference"?
>
> So you don't actually prefer the Micronesian theory?
I like Micronesia better than the Philippines, but that's not a reason
to prefer an etymology!
benlizross
>
> benlizross wrote:
>
> > > > OK, I take it back, an art critic. Once again, I will leave it to others
> > > > to dispute your dogmatic statements about matters you know little of.
> > > > So on the basis of this slide-show, you have managed to convince
> > >
> > > slide-show? I have never seen a slide-show on this.
> >
> > Forgive me, O Literalist, this was my term for your divagation on art
> > history, as if the Philippines had been occupied by battalions of
> > landscape painters.
>
> Not the Philippines. New Zealand.
Aw, stop being so dense. Your argument, based on art history, was that
Americans (all of them) had such a reverential attitude towards
mountains that it was inconceivable that any American would have looked
at whatever they call "bundok" in the Philippines and had crass,
boondockish thoughts about it. I was trying gently to point out the vast
irrelevance of this argument to the actual history of the word.
> Did you overlook the fact that I saw an exhibit of NZ landscape
> paintings alongside Hudson River School paintings a few years ago?
I overlooked it as part of a vast landscape of irrelevance.
> And have read quite a bit on the Hudson River School. I've seen some of
> Church's paintings in three different places, not including their home
> base at his own mansion in upstate New York.
I would be interested to hear the opinions of NZ art historians on the
idea that their 19th century landscape painters were a "branch" of the
Hudson River School, like Burger King.
> > > > yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
> > > > about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology which
> > > > derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on the
> > > > testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and place
> > > > which the documentary record shows to be impossible?
> > >
> > > Where do I exhibit such a "preference"?
> >
> > So you don't actually prefer the Micronesian theory?
>
> I like Micronesia better than the Philippines, but that's not a reason
> to prefer an etymology!
So indeed you do "like better" [i.e. prefer] the above-described
hopeless theory.
Ross Clark
Geoff
Forgot to mention, that "Ding Ho" is the same phrase, maybe with a
Cantonese accent in play (Ho/Hao). I've also seen it "Di Ho" at a
grocery store in Chicago way back when I lived there, but the staff were
Mandarin speakers, so should have known better. I can't think of any
dialect that drops the -ng in that series....
rrh...@acme.com
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>
> > that he could move on to being wrong about other things (badlands
> > necessarily being flat, for example).
>
> "necessarily"?
Ah, upon further review you are right: you made the weaker claim that
'badlands' suggests flat terrain. You were wrong about that, of
course, but I should have been more careful.
You might make a note, by the way, on how that paragraph was written.
You identified a factual error on my part. I confirmed that I had
indeed made a factual error and I acknowledged it. You might usefully
contrast this with, say, defending a position long after it is tenable
and then going off and sulking.
Richard R. Hershberger
Lee Sau Dan
Geoff> Forgot to mention, that "Ding Ho" is the same phrase, maybe
Geoff> with a Cantonese accent in play (Ho/Hao). I've also seen it
Geoff> "Di Ho" at a grocery store in Chicago way back when I lived
Geoff> there, but the staff were Mandarin speakers, so should have
Geoff> known better. I can't think of any dialect that drops the
Geoff> -ng in that series....
Does Shanghainese drop the /-ng/ in that word?
Or the "Di" actually means [ti~], but the shop owner didn't know how
to spell it and hence used "Di"?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Geoff
>>>>>>"Geoff" == Geoff <grw...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
> Geoff> Forgot to mention, that "Ding Ho" is the same phrase, maybe
> Geoff> with a Cantonese accent in play (Ho/Hao). I've also seen it
> Geoff> "Di Ho" at a grocery store in Chicago way back when I lived
> Geoff> there, but the staff were Mandarin speakers, so should have
> Geoff> known better. I can't think of any dialect that drops the
> Geoff> -ng in that series....
>
> Does Shanghainese drop the /-ng/ in that word?
>
> Or the "Di" actually means [ti~], but the shop owner didn't know how
> to spell it and hence used "Di"?
>
>
I suspected Shanghainese as well, but the Hanyu Fangyin Zihui 汉语方音字
汇 gives (for Suzhou) tiN44 hE52 and my little Wu dialect dictionary 简
明吴方言字典 gives tiN53 hO34. [E=ash/ae digraph. O=open o/reversed c].
Even so, my impression of Shanghainese when I hear it is that the
endings transcribed -iN sound more like a nasalized -i, so Shanghainese
is possible.
Or maybe the storekeeper was too cheap to have the other letters
painted, figuring Chinese would see the characters ding hao 頂好 and
foreign devils wouldn't know the difference.
Douglas G. Kilday
[SLT omitted]
"Evertjan." <exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote ...
>
> [...]
>
> Dutch: "bankroet" from
> Italian: "bancarotta" [Broken bank] from
> Latin: "bancus ruptus"
>
> btw:
> French: banqueroute
> German: Bankrott
> Russian: something like that
> Spanish: bancarrota
> etc.
The AHD1 derives Italian <banca> 'bench, moneychanger's table' from OHG
<banc> (cognate with English <bench>, of course). There is no mention of a
(Medieval) Latin <bancus> as intermediate between OHG and Italian. Souter
cites a Late Latin <bancus> 'unidentified fish' from Caelius Aurelianus (5th
c.), but that is certainly a different word. It seems unlikely that
<bancarotta> in the sense 'bankrupt' would have been used before the rise of
modern commercialism anyway (13th c.).
Tak To
> Forgot to mention, that "Ding Ho" is the same phrase, maybe
> with a Cantonese accent in play (Ho/Hao). I've also seen it
> "Di Ho" at a grocery store in Chicago way back when I lived
> there, but the staff were Mandarin speakers, so should have
> known better. I can't think of any dialect that drops the -ng
> in that series....
"Di Ho" could also be Cantonese or Taishanese for 至好
(<dzi33 hou53> in Cantonese, <zhi4 hao3> in Mandarin). Did
you actually see the Chinese characters in the store?
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Alan Smaill
> Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are alien,
> harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern Europeans.
> There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
Scots alien in Britain -- what are you on about??
Scots alien in England would make more sense --
that would fit with Tolkien too.
--
Alan Smaill
Geoff
Yes, on the sign outside it was definitely 頂好 dinghao - that's why I
remember it. In fact, I just looked in the on-line yellow pages, and it
is still there:
Peter T. Daniels
The Scots are not alien; the mountains are alien, and they harbor Scots.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> "Di Ho" could also be Cantonese or Taishanese for
Tak> è³å¥½ (<dzi33 hou53> in Cantonese, <zhi4 hao3>
Tak> in Mandarin).
And in Taishanese, it's something like [ti33 hO55], which seems to
agree perfectly with "Di Ho".
Tak> Did you actually see the Chinese characters in the store?
I can't see the Chinese characters in your post. :)
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{@nJX6X~}
Geoff
>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
>
> Tak> "Di Ho" could also be Cantonese or Taishanese for
> Tak> in Mandarin).
>
> And in Taishanese, it's something like [ti33 hO55], which seems to
> agree perfectly with "Di Ho".
>
>
> Tak> Did you actually see the Chinese characters in the store?
>
> I can't see the Chinese characters in your post. :)
>
>
>
>
Ding as in shanding "the Peak" (HK) and hao = good.
Tak To
>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
>
> Tak> "Di Ho" could also be Cantonese or Taishanese for
> Tak> 至好 (<dzi33 hou53> in Cantonese, <zhi4 hao3>
> Tak> in Mandarin).
>
> And in Taishanese, it's something like [ti33 hO55], which
> seems to agree perfectly with "Di Ho".
The first syllable sounds like [tz<lat>i 33] to me.
> Tak> Did you actually see the Chinese characters in the store?
>
> I can't see the Chinese characters in your post. :)
My post was in UTF-8, with the correct content-type header.
It seems that you have set your browser up to use Big5 all the
time.
to use Big5
rrh...@acme.com
So you are saying that the mountains in Britain are alien? Where did
they come from and how did they manage to pass through customs?
Peter T. Daniels
Which mountains, exactly, are you referring to?
Alan Smaill
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>>
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > Alan Smaill wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> > >
>> > > > Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are alien,
>> > > > harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern Europeans.
>> > > > There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
>> > >
>> > > Scots alien in Britain -- what are you on about??
>> > >
>> > > Scots alien in England would make more sense --
>> > > that would fit with Tolkien too.
>> >
>> > The Scots are not alien; the mountains are alien, and they harbor Scots.
>>
>> So you are saying that the mountains in Britain are alien? Where did
>> they come from and how did they manage to pass through customs?
>
> Which mountains, exactly, are you referring to?
The ones that harbour the Scots, for example.
They are in Britain, after all.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
--
Alan Smaill
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> > rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > Alan Smaill wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are alien,
> >> > > > harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern Europeans.
> >> > > > There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
> >> > >
> >> > > Scots alien in Britain -- what are you on about??
> >> > >
> >> > > Scots alien in England would make more sense --
> >> > > that would fit with Tolkien too.
> >> >
> >> > The Scots are not alien; the mountains are alien, and they harbor Scots.
> >>
> >> So you are saying that the mountains in Britain are alien? Where did
> >> they come from and how did they manage to pass through customs?
> >
> > Which mountains, exactly, are you referring to?
>
> The ones that harbour the Scots, for example.
>
> They are in Britain, after all.
Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
pictures of mountains in Scotland. High hills, maybe, but mountains?
Like the ones that provoked claims of "sublimity" in the Catskills and
the Rockies and New Zealand?
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:4294FD...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
[...]
> Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
> pictures of mountains in Scotland.
Then you haven't seen an adequate selection of pictures.
Scotland has mountains at least as worthy of the name as
anything in New England.
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
Did I suggest there are mountains in New England? Maine has a rocky,
picturesque coast, and Mt. Washington is rather high and the windiest
spot on earth, but you can walk up it in a few hours.
benlizross
1,917 m., considerably higher than anything in NY state. Yet a few days
ago you were assuring us that American painters were getting their
sublimity activated by the moderately elevated rocky bluffs along the
Hudson River! Sheesh.
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:37:21 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> > > <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> > > <news:4294FD...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
> > > > pictures of mountains in Scotland.
> > >
> > > Then you haven't seen an adequate selection of pictures.
> > > Scotland has mountains at least as worthy of the name as
> > > anything in New England.
> >
> > Did I suggest there are mountains in New England? Maine has a rocky,
> > picturesque coast, and Mt. Washington is rather high and the windiest
> > spot on earth, but you can walk up it in a few hours.
> 1,917 m., considerably higher than anything in NY state. Yet a few days
> ago you were assuring us that American painters were getting their
> sublimity activated by the moderately elevated rocky bluffs along the
> Hudson River! Sheesh.
I suspect you've never seen either the Catskills or a Hudson River
School painting.
Mt. Washington is a high hill -- you can walk up it in a few hours.
benlizross
Oh yes I have -- quite like them.
>
> Mt. Washington is a high hill -- you can walk up it in a few hours.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
I can see that this is about to veer from dizzy theories about the
Sublime vs the Boondocks to an argument about "mountain" and "hill" that
could rival in stupidity the epic struggle over "city" and "town". I
think I'll take my leave before that happens.
Ross Clark
Alan Smaill
> Alan Smaill wrote:
>>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>
>> > rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>> >>
...
>> >> they come from and how did they manage to pass through customs?
>> >
>> > Which mountains, exactly, are you referring to?
>>
>> The ones that harbour the Scots, for example.
>>
>> They are in Britain, after all.
>
> Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
> pictures of mountains in Scotland. High hills, maybe, but mountains?
> Like the ones that provoked claims of "sublimity" in the Catskills and
> the Rockies and New Zealand?
here's Byron's take on Lochnagar (a mountain, not a loch):
Yet, Caledonia, beloved are thy mountains,
Round their white summits though elements war,
Though cataracts foam 'stead of smooth-flowing fountains,
I sigh for the valley of Dark Loch na Garr
...
England! thy beauties are tame and domestic
To one who has roved on the mountains afar
Oh! for the crags that are wild and majestic,
The steep frowning glories of wild Lochnagar
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
--
Alan Smaill
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:429544...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:37:21 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>> <news:4294FD...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>> [...]
>>> Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
>>> pictures of mountains in Scotland.
>> Then you haven't seen an adequate selection of pictures.
>> Scotland has mountains at least as worthy of the name as
>> anything in New England.
> Did I suggest there are mountains in New England?
Yes, for this westerner. Which is to say, I was using the
term broadly to include New York.
[...]
Brian
rrh...@acme.com
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Alan Smaill wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> > > rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> > Alan Smaill wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Whereas in Britain, mountains ([all but] nonexistent there) are alien,
> > >> > > > harboring dread, ghosties and ghoulies, Scots, and Southern Europeans.
> > >> > > > There are no friendly or pleasant mountains in Tolkien!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Scots alien in Britain -- what are you on about??
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Scots alien in England would make more sense --
> > >> > > that would fit with Tolkien too.
> > >> >
> > >> > The Scots are not alien; the mountains are alien, and they harbor Scots.
> > >>
> > >> So you are saying that the mountains in Britain are alien? Where did
> > >> they come from and how did they manage to pass through customs?
> > >
> > > Which mountains, exactly, are you referring to?
> >
> > The ones that harbour the Scots, for example.
> >
> > They are in Britain, after all.
>
> Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
> pictures of mountains in Scotland. High hills, maybe, but mountains?
> Like the ones that provoked claims of "sublimity" in the Catskills and
> the Rockies and New Zealand?
It is entirely possible--indeed likely--that you are using some
personal definition of 'mountain' that excludes any geographical
features in Britain. The rest of the universe, however, is under no
obligation to use whatever idiosyncratic meaning you have concocted.
By normal English usage, yes, Britain has mountains. Google on
'mountains' and 'Britain' and you will find over 8 million hits. A
typical example is a site selling the book _The High Mountains of
Britain and Ireland: A Guide for Mountain Walkers_.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 03:40:17 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> <news:429544...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:37:21 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> >> <news:4294FD...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> >> [...]
>
> >>> Maybe my geography is deficient, but I don't recall ever seeing any
> >>> pictures of mountains in Scotland.
>
> >> Then you haven't seen an adequate selection of pictures.
> >> Scotland has mountains at least as worthy of the name as
> >> anything in New England.
>
> > Did I suggest there are mountains in New England?
>
> Yes, for this westerner. Which is to say, I was using the
> term broadly to include New York.
Yeah, I've been to Cleveland, Indiana, a few times.
Need I remind you of the "Rhoda's Wedding" episode of the MTM Show,
where most of the gang drove from Mpls to NYC? Georgette explained that
they drove through Minnesota, and Wisconsin, and Illinois, and Indiana,
and Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, and reached New York. Someone points
out that she didn't mention Ohio, and she says, "Oh, I must've missed
Ohio."
(Georgia Engel has for the past several years been Amy's mother Pat on
Everybody Loves Raymond -- the two characters are very similar. That may
be inevitable in an actress endowed with such a voice.)
Peter T. Daniels
That's nice! Why the different spellings? Which should I look under for
pictures?
Maybe this is what we call poetic license.
Peter T. Daniels
If you can walk it, it's not much of a mountain. Probably not sublime,
either.
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:429650...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2005 03:40:17 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>> <news:429544...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
[...]
>>> Did I suggest there are mountains in New England?
>> Yes, for this westerner. Which is to say, I was using the
>> term broadly to include New York.
> Yeah, I've been to Cleveland, Indiana, a few times.
While it's true that I've lived in the Midwest for many
years, I'm still a (near-coastal) westerner at heart.
> Need I remind you of the "Rhoda's Wedding" episode of the
> MTM Show,
You can't *remind* me: I don't even own a TV.
[...]
Brian
Paul J Kriha
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:429650...@worldnet.att.net...
Loch Na Gar is a mountain. Lochnagar is a distillery. :-)
pjk
John Atkinson
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote...
Some decades ago, I walked up Bethatoli Himal South. It's the only time
I've been above 20 000 feet. Twas sublime enough for me, at the time.
J.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:40:22 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> <news:429650...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> > Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2005 03:40:17 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> >> <news:429544...@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> Did I suggest there are mountains in New England?
>
> >> Yes, for this westerner. Which is to say, I was using the
> >> term broadly to include New York.
>
> > Yeah, I've been to Cleveland, Indiana, a few times.
>
> While it's true that I've lived in the Midwest for many
> years, I'm still a (near-coastal) westerner at heart.
I managed to become a fairly reasonable facsimile of a Chicagoan ...
> > Need I remind you of the "Rhoda's Wedding" episode of the
> > MTM Show,
>
> You can't *remind* me: I don't even own a TV.
That must've been 25 years ago. Circumstances change.
rrh...@acme.com
You seem to have modified your assertion. Are you claiming that
Britain has no mountains, or that it has features which qualify as
'much of a mountain'? That latter at least has the benefit of being
vague: much safer, that.
Peter T. Daniels
"Not much of a" is usually not to be interpreted literally. It usually
means something like "You call that a ??"
rrh...@acme.com
My point precisely. You seem to have previously been claiming that
Britain does not have mountains, though apparently you were using some
unstated and idiosyncratic definition of 'mountain'. Now you seem not
to be saying anything at all, which is a wise choice given your history
for factual accuracy. But I am just confirm that you are in fact
saying nothing, at which point we can leave you to your
self-congratulation.
Actually, upon closer review it may be that you never actually said
anything to begin with, as there are weasel words scattered throughout
your earlier postings. So never mind. Move along, folks. Nothing to
see here...
Peter T. Daniels
I don't see _your_ definition of "mountain" anywhere up there.
I also don't recall you making any substantive contributions to any
threads here at all?