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OED Pronunciation
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benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 23, 2012, 1:21:57 AM1/23/12
to
Late last year, after a discussion here in which various oddities and
inconsistencies in the pronunciation indications in OED Online had
been noted, I queried my OED contact, who got in touch with the
pronunciation people, and eventually replied to me. Her brief reply
had two points:
(1) Yes, some of the inconsistencies are the result of the ongoing
revision process.
(2) "The system of transcription in the revised OED Online is the one
developed by Upton and Kretzschmar for the Oxford Concise Dictionary
of Pronunciation. The prelims of that publication give a brief
explanation of the system."
I do not have access to the work cited, nor am I familiar with the
work of Upton and Kretzschmar. Can anyone shed any light on this?
OH BY THE WAY:
Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
[j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
"boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
perfect dialect informant!). Now I'm a believer...
inconsistencies in the pronunciation indications in OED Online had
been noted, I queried my OED contact, who got in touch with the
pronunciation people, and eventually replied to me. Her brief reply
had two points:
(1) Yes, some of the inconsistencies are the result of the ongoing
revision process.
(2) "The system of transcription in the revised OED Online is the one
developed by Upton and Kretzschmar for the Oxford Concise Dictionary
of Pronunciation. The prelims of that publication give a brief
explanation of the system."
I do not have access to the work cited, nor am I familiar with the
work of Upton and Kretzschmar. Can anyone shed any light on this?
OH BY THE WAY:
Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
[j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
"boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
perfect dialect informant!). Now I'm a believer...
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 23, 2012, 1:30:14 AM1/23/12
to
On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Late last year, after a discussion here in which various oddities and
> inconsistencies in the pronunciation indications in OED Online had
> been noted, I queried my OED contact, who got in touch with the
> pronunciation people, and eventually replied to me. Her brief reply
> had two points:
>
> (1) Yes, some of the inconsistencies are the result of the ongoing
> revision process.
>
> (2) "The system of transcription in the revised OED Online is the one
> developed by Upton and Kretzschmar for the Oxford Concise Dictionary
> of Pronunciation. The prelims of that publication give a brief
> explanation of the system."
>
> I do not have access to the work cited, nor am I familiar with the
> work of Upton and Kretzschmar. Can anyone shed any light on this?
>
On further exploration, something like this book does seem to be in
> Late last year, after a discussion here in which various oddities and
> inconsistencies in the pronunciation indications in OED Online had
> been noted, I queried my OED contact, who got in touch with the
> pronunciation people, and eventually replied to me. Her brief reply
> had two points:
>
> (1) Yes, some of the inconsistencies are the result of the ongoing
> revision process.
>
> (2) "The system of transcription in the revised OED Online is the one
> developed by Upton and Kretzschmar for the Oxford Concise Dictionary
> of Pronunciation. The prelims of that publication give a brief
> explanation of the system."
>
> I do not have access to the work cited, nor am I familiar with the
> work of Upton and Kretzschmar. Can anyone shed any light on this?
>
our library, though under the title "Oxford Dictionary of
Pronunciation for Current English" (2001). Is this just a garbled
reference from my informant, or is OxDic indulging its taste for
baffling title-play again? Anyhow, may get a chance to look at it
tomorrow. Any comments from Upton/Kretzschmar followers welcome...
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 23, 2012, 7:45:03 AM1/23/12
to
Bill Kretschmar was (one of) Raven McDavid's last student(s). For
years he had a marginal position on the U of Chicago English Dept.
faculty where he tried to do something with the Linguistic Atlas of
the Upper Midwest materials, and then he moved to South Carolina(?)
where the archives of one of the other LA projects (Gulf States?) was
housed. Nice guy. He's thus one of the few scholars continuing the
tradition of American dialectology.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 23, 2012, 5:04:37 PM1/23/12
to
in the house where he was born!
António Marques
Jan 24, 2012, 6:19:19 AM1/24/12
to
cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
Just the other day I read 'The Shrieking Pit' which is supposed to
transcribe some bits of Norfolk speech in 'pronunciation spelling', but I
can't recall any instance of [labial (j)uw].
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 24, 2012, 8:01:21 PM1/24/12
to
On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>
> > On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
> >> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
> >> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
> >> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
> >> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
> >> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
> >> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
> >> perfect dialect informant!).
>
> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
> > in the house where he was born!
>
> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
>
> > On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
> >> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
> >> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
> >> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
> >> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
> >> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
> >> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
> >> perfect dialect informant!).
>
> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
> > in the house where he was born!
>
> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
António Marques
Jan 24, 2012, 8:12:39 PM1/24/12
to
benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote (25-01-2012 01:01):
> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>
>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>
>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>> in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
Is 'dwelled' so out of register or am I being dense?
> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>
>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>
>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>> in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
pauljk
Jan 25, 2012, 1:49:53 AM1/25/12
to
"António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
news:jfnku5$2so$1...@dont-email.me...
> benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote (25-01-2012 01:01):
>> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>>
>>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>>
>>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>>> in the house where he was born!
>>>
>>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>>
>> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
>
> Is 'dwelled' so out of register or am I being dense?
In this context 'dwell' would have meaning of 'live in or at a specified
>> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>>
>>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>>
>>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>>> in the house where he was born!
>>>
>>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>>
>> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
>
> Is 'dwelled' so out of register or am I being dense?
place' or by another dictionary 'live as a resident; reside',
so, I guess, it wouldn't be of much help.
pjk
pauljk
Jan 25, 2012, 1:55:23 AM1/25/12
to
<benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:4d1d5147-6a93-4a8e...@c9g2000pbh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>
>> > On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> >> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>> >> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>> >> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>> >> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>> >> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>> >> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>> >> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>> >> perfect dialect informant!).
>>
>> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>> > in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
Not easy, hmmm, what about domiciled?
>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>
>> > On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> >> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>> >> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>> >> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>> >> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>> >> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>> >> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>> >> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>> >> perfect dialect informant!).
>>
>> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>> > in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
But it's beginning to sound anal-retentive.
António Marques
Jan 25, 2012, 6:40:10 AM1/25/12
to
pauljk wrote (25-01-2012 06:49):
>
> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
> news:jfnku5$2so$1...@dont-email.me...
>> benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote (25-01-2012 01:01):
>>> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>>>
>>>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>>>> in the house where he was born!
>>>>
>>>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>>>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>>>
>>> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
>>
>> Is 'dwelled' so out of register or am I being dense?
>
> In this context 'dwell' would have meaning of 'live in or at a specified
> place' or by another dictionary 'live as a resident; reside',
> so, I guess, it wouldn't be of much help.
But wasn't that precisely the intended meaning? He always had the same
>
> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
> news:jfnku5$2so$1...@dont-email.me...
>> benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote (25-01-2012 01:01):
>>> On Jan 24, 9:19 pm, António Marques<antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote (23-01-2012 22:04):
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 23, 7:21 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz"<benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>> Remember the discussion of the "bootiful" dialect of Norfolk, in which
>>>>>> [j] before [uw] is lost after labials? I had to accept its existence
>>>>>> on the authority of Trudgill and others, but I'd never heard it
>>>>>> myself. But just the other day I was listening to a CD of traditional
>>>>>> English singers, and heard somebody singing about the blowing of a
>>>>>> "boogle". And sure enough, the singer was Walter Pardon, of Knapton,
>>>>>> Norfolk (lived all his life within a few miles of the place -- the
>>>>>> perfect dialect informant!).
>>>>
>>>>> Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>>>>> in the house where he was born!
>>>>
>>>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>>>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>>>
>>> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
>>
>> Is 'dwelled' so out of register or am I being dense?
>
> In this context 'dwell' would have meaning of 'live in or at a specified
> place' or by another dictionary 'live as a resident; reside',
> so, I guess, it wouldn't be of much help.
postal address his whole life, though he did spend brief periods of time in
other locations, and he presumably went out of his house regularly like
evryone else?
pauljk
Jan 25, 2012, 8:19:17 AM1/25/12
to
news:jfopmo$qbl$1...@dont-email.me...
But in this context 'lived' has the same meaning. When I say "in the
seventies I lived in England for two years", it doesn't mean I never
physically left England to spend time skiing in winter in Scotland,
Switzerland and Austria, or touring in summer in south of France
and Italy.
pjk
seventies I lived in England for two years", it doesn't mean I never
physically left England to spend time skiing in winter in Scotland,
Switzerland and Austria, or touring in summer in south of France
and Italy.
pjk
António Marques
Jan 25, 2012, 9:13:56 AM1/25/12
to
had 'lived all his life within a few miles of the place' and then even
better because he had 'lived his entire life in the house where he was
born', I couldn't help but think that Walter Pardon had never ever
physically left the building where he was born. I had to check the Wabs.
pauljk
Jan 25, 2012, 9:52:12 AM1/25/12
to
news:jfp2n2$a1g$1...@dont-email.me...
Well, yes, I agree, that is one possible reading (eg. living in the house
under life house arrest). Without any helpful context one can never be
100.0% sure which reading is correct. But because it _usually_ doesn't
mean that he never left the house at all, when I read it out of context
I would not automatically assume that he never left the house at all.
Just like in my earlier example "I lived in England for two years"
one shouldn't assume that during that time I never went to Wales
or Scotland or any other country.
pjk
under life house arrest). Without any helpful context one can never be
100.0% sure which reading is correct. But because it _usually_ doesn't
mean that he never left the house at all, when I read it out of context
I would not automatically assume that he never left the house at all.
Just like in my earlier example "I lived in England for two years"
one shouldn't assume that during that time I never went to Wales
or Scotland or any other country.
pjk
Giuseppe Castelli
Jan 25, 2012, 4:06:53 PM1/25/12
to
benl...@ihug.co.nz:
>> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>> > in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
Would "Lived his entire life at the house where he was born" be
grammatical? And work better?
>> > Checked this again -- even better! Lived his entire life (1914-1996)
>> > in the house where he was born!
>>
>> You made it sound like he never physically left the building (in other
>> cultures I suppose he could have been buried there too).
>
> Yes, I couldn't figure out how to dis-invite that reading.
grammatical? And work better?
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 25, 2012, 4:47:51 PM1/25/12
to
On Jan 25, 4:06 pm, Giuseppe Castelli <gcaste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> benli...@ihug.co.nz:
It feels a bit British?
> benli...@ihug.co.nz:
Bohgosity BumaskiL
Jan 26, 2012, 5:06:48 AM1/26/12
to
A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
/uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
it seemz obvious.
I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
/uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
it seemz obvious.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 26, 2012, 7:39:36 AM1/26/12
to
On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle". I used that system because (i)
it was the one I was taught many, many years ago as a student; (ii)
certain persons on sci.lang get tetchy if you use any other system,
and I have no interest in getting into tetch-matches here.
Now I'm not familiar with any system that uses /uu/ for the same
purpose. Can you tell us where it comes from? If you can give it a
suitable pedigree, you may be able to avoid being tetched at.
write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle". I used that system because (i)
it was the one I was taught many, many years ago as a student; (ii)
certain persons on sci.lang get tetchy if you use any other system,
and I have no interest in getting into tetch-matches here.
Now I'm not familiar with any system that uses /uu/ for the same
purpose. Can you tell us where it comes from? If you can give it a
suitable pedigree, you may be able to avoid being tetched at.
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 26, 2012, 10:12:47 AM1/26/12
to
course /byuwg(@)l/ unless you are referring to that dialect you
mentioned that de-yoticizes before /u(w)/.
Are there some who object to doubling a letter rather than inserting a
colon in phonemic notation? It's the usual practice in transcribing
Arabic consonants. (Length not being phonemic in the language for
which American English phonemic notation was devised, the question did
not arise, but orthographies often prefer doubling a letter to some
sort of diacritic.)
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Jan 26, 2012, 8:55:55 PM1/26/12
to
On Jan 27, 4:12 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 26, 7:39 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
>
> > <brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> > > A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
> > > I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
> > > /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
> > > between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
> > > it seemz obvious.
>
> > In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
> > write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle". I used that system because (i)
> > it was the one I was taught many, many years ago as a student; (ii)
> > certain persons on sci.lang get tetchy if you use any other system,
> > and I have no interest in getting into tetch-matches here.
>
> > Now I'm not familiar with any system that uses /uu/ for the same
> > purpose. Can you tell us where it comes from? If you can give it a
> > suitable pedigree, you may be able to avoid being tetched at.
>
> Do you think that's what the person was referring to? "Bugle" is of
> course /byuwg(@)l/ unless you are referring to that dialect you
> mentioned that de-yoticizes before /u(w)/.
Of course that's what he was referring to. He used the spelling
> On Jan 26, 7:39 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
>
> > <brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> > > A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
> > > I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
> > > /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
> > > between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
> > > it seemz obvious.
>
> > In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
> > write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle". I used that system because (i)
> > it was the one I was taught many, many years ago as a student; (ii)
> > certain persons on sci.lang get tetchy if you use any other system,
> > and I have no interest in getting into tetch-matches here.
>
> > Now I'm not familiar with any system that uses /uu/ for the same
> > purpose. Can you tell us where it comes from? If you can give it a
> > suitable pedigree, you may be able to avoid being tetched at.
>
> Do you think that's what the person was referring to? "Bugle" is of
> course /byuwg(@)l/ unless you are referring to that dialect you
> mentioned that de-yoticizes before /u(w)/.
"boogle", which I had used to indicate the de-yoticization I heard in
Walter Pardon's pronunciation of "bugle". I referred to the vowel in
question as /uw/. I now recall, from the other thread, that he has his
own system of reformed spelling which uses <uu> for this vowel. Given
the "half-assed" (to use Nathan's term) nature of this system, it
seems at least possible that he actually does not know of the Smith-
Trager phonemic system, and is a little unclear about the relation
between [u] and [w].
> Are there some who object to doubling a letter rather than inserting a
> colon in phonemic notation? It's the usual practice in transcribing
> Arabic consonants. (Length not being phonemic in the language for
> which American English phonemic notation was devised, the question did
> not arise, but orthographies often prefer doubling a letter to some
> sort of diacritic.)
objections to systems other than S-T (which you considered "standard")
for representing English (or at least AmEng). It may have come up in
that lengthy discussion of length contrasts. In any case, we don't
know what sort of English B.B. is trying to describe.
Ruud Harmsen
Jan 27, 2012, 11:11:44 AM1/27/12
to
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> schreef/wrote:
>On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
><brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
>> A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
>> I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
>> /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
>> between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
>> it seemz obvious.
>
>In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
>write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle".
No, that's "fool"!
--
Ruud Harmsen,
http://rudhar.com/new
>On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
><brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
>> A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
>> I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
>> /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
>> between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
>> it seemz obvious.
>
>In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
>write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle".
--
Ruud Harmsen,
http://rudhar.com/new
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 27, 2012, 11:56:53 AM1/27/12
to
On Jan 27, 11:11 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> schreef/wrote:
Ross (somehow expected us to realize that he) was talking about the
aberrant "boogle" pronunciation he mentioned in his first message.
> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> schreef/wrote:
>
> >On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
> ><brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
> >> I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
> >> /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
> >> between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
> >> it seemz obvious.
>
> >In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
> >write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle".
>
> No, that's "fool"!
Please read what has already been posted before commenting.
> >On Jan 26, 11:06 pm, Bohgosity BumaskiL
> ><brewh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> A "boogle" iz of course a /byuugl/.
> >> I hav no idea how [uw] iz to be pronounced.
> >> /uu/? Maybe I should document the similarity
> >> between /w/ and /uu/, somewhere, even though
> >> it seemz obvious.
>
> >In one system of phonemic transcription of English, /uw/ is how you
> >write the vowel/diphthong in "bugle".
>
> No, that's "fool"!
Ross (somehow expected us to realize that he) was talking about the
aberrant "boogle" pronunciation he mentioned in his first message.
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