real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
"cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
fashionable circles than I do.
In article <7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d-9ea2-2c3558c6d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> fashionable circles than I do.
It's got quite a wide range of uses:
A: Sorry I stepped on your foot!
B: Don't worry, it's cool.
(=I'm fine or will be soon)
We're cool.
(=we're on relatively good terms, though perhaps
we weren't in the (possibly very recent) past)
He's cool.
(=he's a nice/fun/trustworthy guy) (more common meaning)
(=he's hip/suave/popular) (less frequent meaning)
Cool! (with a high-falling intonation)
(=nice!, good for you!, how fun!, etc.)
Cooool! (longer, with a low-falling intonation)
(=nifty!, interesting!, amazing!, etc.)
Cool. (very short, with a low-falling intonation)
(=I agree, alright, okay, I hear what you are saying, etc.;
often used as conversational filler, especially when you
aren't really invested in the conversation)
Cool story, bro. (very current sarcasm)
(=that story was too long/boring, cf. "TL;DR")
Stay cool. (=stay calm)
Cool it! (=settle down!) (not used as much nowadays)
That's just off the top of my head. I"m sure there are some I'm missing.
On 1 Oct 2012 Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article
> <7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d-9ea2-2c3558c6d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
>> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
>> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
>> fashionable circles than I do.
> It's got quite a wide range of uses:
[snip]
An early use, maybe even the first, was in the late 1940s, when "Cool Jazz" emerged as an alternative to the relative asperities of bebop. "Birth of the Cool" was a reissue of a splendid series of recordings by Miles Davis et al from 1949 and 1950.
Peter.
(a.u.e. follow-up. I haven't time to read sci.lang!)
-- Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> fashionable circles than I do.
The two chief references in American speech are
1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
2. From Marshall McLuhan's classification of hot and cool
communications media, in a book Understanding Media (1964),
shortly thereafter taken up by US advertisers, broadcasters, etc.
Case 3 is current American teenager speech, formally documented
but widely distributed (e.g. Youtube.)
-- Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> fashionable circles than I do.
According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
“2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]
“2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]
“3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
musicians after WWII.]” [1933]
“3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]
“4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
“5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
“6. safe or well.” [1952]
It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
>> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
>> "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
>> though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
>> fashionable circles than I do.
> The two chief references in American speech are
> 1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
> 2. From Marshall McLuhan's classification of hot and cool
> communications media, in a book Understanding Media (1964),
> shortly thereafter taken up by US advertisers, broadcasters, etc.
> Case 3 is current American teenager speech, formally documented
> but widely distributed (e.g. Youtube.)
What about Cool Hand Luke?
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
> > real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > fashionable circles than I do.
> The two chief references in American speech are
> 1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
> 2. From Marshall McLuhan's classification of hot and cool
> communications media, in a book Understanding Media (1964),
> shortly thereafter taken up by US advertisers, broadcasters, etc.
> Case 3 is current American teenager speech, formally documented
> but widely distributed (e.g. Youtube.)
Are you claiming that the (basically obsolete) 1 and/or 2 somehow
underlie, or morphed into, or _are_, 3?
> On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > fashionable circles than I do.
> According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
> slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
> perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
> “2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
> ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]
> “2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]
> “3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
> with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
> musicians after WWII.]” [1933]
> “3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]
> “4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
> “5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
> cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
> “6. safe or well.” [1952]
> It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
> cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
Date of that dictionary?
There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
sense and the current sense.
Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> On Oct 1, 2:48 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > > fashionable circles than I do.
> > According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
> > slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
> > perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
> > “2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
> > ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]
> > “2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]
> > “3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
> > with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
> > musicians after WWII.]” [1933]
> > “3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]
> > “4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
> > “5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
> > cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
> > “6. safe or well.” [1952]
> > It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
> > cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
> Date of that dictionary?
Vol. 1 (A-G) was published in 1994; vol 2 (H-O) in 1997.
> There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> sense and the current sense.
There isn’t one current sense of the word (and in many instances of
usage more than one sense is implied). I think Bernstein used it in
Lighter’s sense no. 5, although he may have thought it derived from
jazz jargon.
> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
He missed that. He has “Cool as shit” in a 1973 example of 3a.
There’s also a column on the noun form of “cool” (1. composure, 2. a
period of truce (underworld), and 3. stylishness), and a page on its
meanings as a verb (1. to kill [underworld], 2a. to knock unconscious,
2b. to to deliver a finishing blow, 2c. to do well on, 2d. to subdue
[a person], 3a. to mollify or appease, as with flattery or a bribe,
3b. to administer or sell heroin to, 4a. to put a stop to [extended
from “Cool it”], 4b. to put off, 5. to die, and 6. to relax, enjoy
oneself [cool it]), with the phrases “cool in”[?], “cool it,” and
“cool (one’s) jets.”
> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 2:48 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > > On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > > > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > > > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > > > fashionable circles than I do.
> > > According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
> > > slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
> > > perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
> > > “2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
> > > ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]
> > > “2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]
> > > “3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
> > > with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
> > > musicians after WWII.]” [1933]
> > > “3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]
> > > “4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
> > > “5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
> > > cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
> > > “6. safe or well.” [1952]
> > > It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
> > > cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
> > Date of that dictionary?
> Vol. 1 (A-G) was published in 1994; vol 2 (H-O) in 1997.
> > There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > sense and the current sense.
> There isn’t one current sense of the word (and in many instances of
> usage more than one sense is implied). I think Bernstein used it in
> Lighter’s sense no. 5, although he may have thought it derived from
> jazz jargon.
> > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> He missed that.
I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
rest, but it's not slang.
> In article
> <7af3b3bb-8ae3-412d-9ea2-2c3558c6d...@h4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > fashionable circles than I do.
> It's got quite a wide range of uses:
> A: Sorry I stepped on your foot!
> B: Don't worry, it's cool.
> (=I'm fine or will be soon)
> We're cool.
> (=we're on relatively good terms, though perhaps
> we weren't in the (possibly very recent) past)
> He's cool.
> (=he's a nice/fun/trustworthy guy) (more common meaning)
> (=he's hip/suave/popular) (less frequent meaning)
> Cool! (with a high-falling intonation)
> (=nice!, good for you!, how fun!, etc.)
> Cooool! (longer, with a low-falling intonation)
> (=nifty!, interesting!, amazing!, etc.)
> Cool. (very short, with a low-falling intonation)
> (=I agree, alright, okay, I hear what you are saying, etc.;
> often used as conversational filler, especially when you
> aren't really invested in the conversation)
> Cool story, bro. (very current sarcasm)
> (=that story was too long/boring, cf. "TL;DR")
> Stay cool. (=stay calm)
> Cool it! (=settle down!) (not used as much nowadays)
> That's just off the top of my head. I"m sure there are some I'm
> missing.
> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Oct 1, 2:48 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > > > > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > > > > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > > > > fashionable circles than I do.
> > > > According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
> > > > slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
> > > > perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
> > > > “2.a. shrewd, clever; (_hence_) urbane; suave, sophisticated, esp. in
> > > > ways attractive to the opposite sex [...].” [1918]
> > > > “2.b. fashionable; stylish.” [1946]
> > > > “3.a. Orig._Black E._superlative; exciting; enjoyable; (esp. later,
> > > > with weakened force) satisfactory; acceptable; OK. [Pop. by jazz
> > > > musicians after WWII.]” [1933]
> > > > “3.b. on friendly terms; cooperative.” [1973]
> > > > “4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
> > > > “5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
> > > > cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
> > > > “6. safe or well.” [1952]
> > > > It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
> > > > cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
> > > Date of that dictionary?
> > Vol. 1 (A-G) was published in 1994; vol 2 (H-O) in 1997.
> > > There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > > sense and the current sense.
> > There isn’t one current sense of the word (and in many instances of
> > usage more than one sense is implied). I think Bernstein used it in
> > Lighter’s sense no. 5, although he may have thought it derived from
> > jazz jargon.
> > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > He missed that.
> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> rest, but it's not slang.
OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
cited above.
The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
<christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
>> rest, but it's not slang.
>OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
>cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
>cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
>1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
>contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
>cited above.
>The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
>of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
>dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
>ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
>dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
>2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
>idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
>college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
>21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
There have been numerous discussions about this on aue in the past, mainly
sponsored by Richard Fontana who had a theory that "cool" as in dispassionate
disappeared in the late 60s and returned in the mid-1970s as a result of a TV
series called "Happy Days", in which it was used as a term of general
approval.
Perhaps it disappeared in the late 1960s because it was replaced by the term
"laid-back".
The related term "hipster" seems to have undergone a similar change of
meaning.
-- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:47:08 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
> <christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> >> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> >> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> >> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> >> rest, but it's not slang.
> >OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> >cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> >cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> >1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> >contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> >cited above.
> >The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> >of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> >dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> >ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> >dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> >2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> >idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> >college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> >21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> There have been numerous discussions about this on aue in the past, mainly
> sponsored by Richard Fontana who had a theory that "cool" as in dispassionate
> disappeared in the late 60s and returned in the mid-1970s as a result of a TV
> series called "Happy Days", in which it was used as a term of general
> approval.
> Perhaps it disappeared in the late 1960s because it was replaced by the term
> "laid-back".
That seems like a rather strange theory. I don't think "cool" as in
dispassionate has ever disappeared. And if "Happy Days" may have given
a boost to "cool" as a general term of approval, it had been around
for years if not decades before that series started. (After all,
wasn't "H.D." a retro-series supposedly recreating teenage life in the
1950s?)
Mr Fontana seems to have been observing a very narrow slice of actual
English usage.
> The related term "hipster" seems to have undergone a similar change of
> meaning.
> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 2:48 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 1, 10:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:> real life problem: I was asked by an ESL speaker about the usage of
> > > > > > "cool" (kewl) in the US. I am savy enough to understand its usage,
> > > > > > though I don't use it myself. teh personn in question does go in more
> > > > > > fashionable circles than I do.
> > > > > According to Lighter,_Random House historical dictionary of American
> > > > > slang, it has a range of meanings that are still current, except for
> > > > > perhaps sense 4 (dates indicate earliest literary examples):
> > > > > “4 _Und._no longer being sought by police. Cf._hot_.” [1937]
> > > > > “5. under control; cautious; discreet; in phr._stay [or_be_]
> > > > > cool_(used as a valediction).” [1862]
> > > > > “6. safe or well.” [1952]
> > > > > It also occurs in the phrases “cool as a moose” [1969], “play it
> > > > > cool” [1942], and “take it cool” [1841].
> > > > Date of that dictionary?
> > > Vol. 1 (A-G) was published in 1994; vol 2 (H-O) in 1997.
> > > > There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> > > > sense and the current sense.
> > > There isn’t one current sense of the word (and in many instances of
> > > usage more than one sense is implied). I think Bernstein used it in
> > > Lighter’s sense no. 5, although he may have thought it derived from
> > > jazz jargon.
> > > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > > He missed that.
> > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > rest, but it's not slang.
> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> cited above.
Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
"here" refers to in your "but here..."
> The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> Christopher Ingham
Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
conventional simile.
> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > > > He missed that.
> > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > rest, but it's not slang.
> > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > cited above.
> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
> > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> conventional simile.
Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > > > > He missed that.
> > > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > > rest, but it's not slang.
> > > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > > cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > > cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > > 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > > contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > > cited above.
> > Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> > essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> > "here" refers to in your "but here..."
> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
> But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
"cool" 2a in the Online version.
> > > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> > Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> > or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> > conventional simile.
> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
> Christopher Ingham
No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
Larry" might be more idiomatic.
> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "coolas acucumber" slang?
> > > > > > He missed that.
> > > > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > > > rest, but it's not slang.
> > > > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Coolas a
> > > >cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > > > cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > > > 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > > > contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > > > cited above.
> > > Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> > > essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> > > "here" refers to in your "but here..."
> > Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> > thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
> > persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
> > unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
> > But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
> > > > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > > > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > > > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > > > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > > > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > > > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > > > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > > > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > > > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> > > Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> > > or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_cool. It's just a
> > > conventional simile.
> > Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
> > Christopher Ingham
> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
> that with thecucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> Larry" might be more idiomatic.-
Cucumbers, being moist, are perceived as having a temperature lower
than the ambient one (hence, "cool" in the literal, on-the-way-to-cold
sense). But saying that someone is "cool as a cucumber" is not a
reference to whether they are not feverish, or are hypothermic; it
refers to their calm in the face of disruption. Thus it is at least an
idiom, certainly a catch phrase (in Partridge's sense), and unless it
is widespread in formal prose, is at least colloquial, if not slang.
> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > > > > > He missed that.
> > > > > I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > > > > simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > > > > dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > > > > 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > > > > rest, but it's not slang.
> > > > OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > > > cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > > > cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > > > 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > > > contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > > > cited above.
> > > Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> > > essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> > > "here" refers to in your "but here..."
> > Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> > thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
> > persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
> > unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
> > But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
> > > > The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > > > of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > > > dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > > > ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > > > dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > > > 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > > > idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > > > college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > > > 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> > > Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> > > or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> > > conventional simile.
My version is The compact OED² (1991), which has for 2a,
“_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
that of actual coolness [...].”
> > Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
> > Christopher Ingham
> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
> On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
>>>>>>> He missed that.
>>>>>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
>>>>>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
>>>>>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
>>>>>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
>>>>>> rest, but it's not slang.
>>>>> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. Cool as a
>>>>> cucumber also has this meaning, but here cool means moderately
>>>>> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat, etc. (OED
>>>>> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
>>>>> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
>>>>> cited above.
>>>> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
>>>> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
>>>> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
>>> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to cucumber 2b I
>>> thought you were referring to cool, where, under 4a, I saw, Of
>>> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
>>> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.
>>> But regardless, this doesn t affect my argument.
>> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
>> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
>>>>> The phrase, however, is considered as I find on the first two pages
>>>>> of Google search results either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
>>>>> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
>>>>> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
>>>>> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
>>>>> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
>>>>> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
>>>>> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
>>>>> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
>>>> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
>>>> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
>>>> conventional simile.
> My version is The compact OED (1991), which has for 2a,
> _transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
> that of actual coolness [...].
>>> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
>>> Christopher Ingham
>> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
>> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
>> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
>> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
The complimentary usage for "cool" is pretty common and the online OED has:
8.colloq. (orig. U.S.).
a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy; fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
It is interesting that it is up to date enough to also also have "bad":
8.colloq. (orig. U.S.)
a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy; fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
-- Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
> On Oct 2, 7:17 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:47:08 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham
> > <christophering...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > >> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > >> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > >> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > >> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > >> rest, but it's not slang.
> > >OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > >cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > >cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > >1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > >contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > >cited above.
> > >The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > >of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > >dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > >ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > >dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > >2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > >idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > >college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > >21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> > There have been numerous discussions about this on aue in the past, mainly
> > sponsored by Richard Fontana who had a theory that "cool" as in dispassionate
> > disappeared in the late 60s and returned in the mid-1970s as a result of a TV
> > series called "Happy Days", in which it was used as a term of general
> > approval.
> > Perhaps it disappeared in the late 1960s because it was replaced by the term
> > "laid-back".
> That seems like a rather strange theory. I don't think "cool" as in
> dispassionate has ever disappeared. And if "Happy Days" may have given
> a boost to "cool" as a general term of approval, it had been around
> for years if not decades before that series started. (After all,
> wasn't "H.D." a retro-series supposedly recreating teenage life in the
> 1950s?)
The way I remember it, he said "cool" as a _term of approval_
disappeared in the late '60s or was limited to irony and was
popularized for the second time by _H. D._ ("Whirl up sea--/ Whirl
your pointed pines").
> Mr Fontana seems to have been observing a very narrow slice of actual
> English usage.
...
I did have that impression once in a while, though my experience was
rather similar to his. Ben Zimmer said there was good lexicographical
evidence that that sense of "cool" hadn't disappeared. I wouldn't be
surprised if it did have a dip in popularity, at least in some sizable
regions circles.
> > On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> >>>>>>> He missed that.
> >>>>>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> >>>>>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> >>>>>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> >>>>>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> >>>>>> rest, but it's not slang.
> >>>>> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> >>>>> cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> >>>>> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> >>>>> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> >>>>> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> >>>>> cited above.
> >>>> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> >>>> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> >>>> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
> >>> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> >>> thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
> >>> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
> >>> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
> >>> But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
> >> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
> >> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
> >>>>> The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> >>>>> of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> >>>>> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> >>>>> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> >>>>> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> >>>>> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> >>>>> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> >>>>> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> >>>>> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> >>>> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> >>>> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> >>>> conventional simile.
> > My version is The compact OED² (1991), which has for 2a,
> > “_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
> > that of actual coolness [...].”
> >>> Similes and idioms aren't necessarily always mutually exclusive.
> >>> Christopher Ingham
> >> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> >> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
> >> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> >> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
> The complimentary usage for "cool" is pretty common and the online OED
> has:
> 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.).
> a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
> It is interesting that it is up to date enough to also also have "bad":
> 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.)
> a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
I’m surprised to see in Lighter (“bad” 2) its occurrence in
“esp._Black E_” as early as 1897. I assumed this sense of “bad” was
new in the 1970s, when its (and that of 2a, "very tough, pugnacious,
formidable (_hence_) formidably skilled," dating at least to 1855)
usage became rather widespread mainly via cinema and the music
industry.
> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On 10/2/2012 9:29 AM, Christopher Ingham wrote:
> > > On Oct 2, 4:57 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > >> On Oct 2, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> On Oct 2, 3:30 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > >>>> On Oct 2, 6:47 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Oct 1, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Oct 2, 10:17 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Oct 1, 4:17 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
> > >>>>>>> He missed that.
> > >>>>>> I think rather he doesn't consider it slang. It's just a conventional
> > >>>>>> simile for the sense "not affected by passion or emotion,
> > >>>>>> dispassionate; controlled, deliberate, not hasty; calm, composed" (OED
> > >>>>>> 2a), which Lighter does not include. It's a starting point for the
> > >>>>>> rest, but it's not slang.
> > >>>>> OED gives the above as one sense of the word alone. “Cool as a
> > >>>>> cucumber” also has this meaning, but here“cool” means “moderately
> > >>>>> cold, said of a temperature which, in contrast with heat,” etc. (OED
> > >>>>> 1a), and therefore is used in a very conventional sense, in
> > >>>>> contradistinction to the slang senses it has in the other phrases
> > >>>>> cited above.
> > >>>> Are you agreeing with me? OED gives the "cucumber" expression with
> > >>>> essentially the same definition s.v. "cucumber". I don't know what
> > >>>> "here" refers to in your "but here..."
> > >>> Aha. I understand now that you were referring to “cucumber” 2b I
> > >>> thought you were referring to “cool,” where, under 4a, I saw, “Of
> > >>> persons (and their actions): not heated by passion or emotion;
> > >>> unexcited; dispassionate; deliberate, not hasty; undisturbed, calm.”
> > >>> But regardless, this doesn’t affect my argument.
> > >> We are probably using different OED's. The definition I quoted is
> > >> "cool" 2a in the Online version.
> > >>>>> The phrase, however, is considered – as I find on the first two pages
> > >>>>> of Google search results – either slang (Siefring, The Oxford
> > >>>>> dictionary of slang (2005); Chapman and Kipfer, American slang, 4th
> > >>>>> ed. (HarperCollins, 2008); Dalzell and Victor, The new Partridge
> > >>>>> dictionary of slang and unconventional English (Taylor & Francis,
> > >>>>> 2006)); or idiomatic (Ammer, The American Heritage dictionary of
> > >>>>> idioms (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1997); The American Heritage
> > >>>>> college thesaurus (Oxford Univ. Press, 2004)); or colloquial (Chambers
> > >>>>> 21st century dictionary, rev. ed. (Chambers Harrap, 1999)).
> > >>>> Interesting. I don't see any good reason to consider it either slang
> > >>>> or even really idiomatic. Cucumbers _are_ cool. It's just a
> > >>>> conventional simile.
> > > My version is The compact OED² (1991), which has for 2a,
> > > “_transf._Applied to a sensation of the organs of taste analogous to
> > > that of actual coolness [...].”
> > >> No, I guess not. But I take the defining characteristic of idioms to
> > >> be combinatorial opacity (if I may coin a phrase), and I don't feel
> > >> that with the cucumber. Something like "pissed as a newt" or "happy as
> > >> Larry" might be more idiomatic.
> > The complimentary usage for "cool" is pretty common and the online OED
> > has:
> > 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.).
> > a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> > fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
> > It is interesting that it is up to date enough to also also have "bad":
> > 8.colloq. (orig. U.S.)
> > a. Attractively shrewd or clever; sophisticated, stylish, classy;
> > fashionable, up to date; sexually attractive.
> I’m surprised to see in Lighter (“bad” 2) its occurrence in
> “esp._Black E_” as early as 1897. I assumed this sense of “bad” was
> new in the 1970s, when its (and that of 2a,
> There's a song in *West Side Story* (1957) that combines the jazz
> sense and the current sense.
> > > . . . references in American speech are
> > 1. From jazz musicians' jargon, "cool" as popularized by Norman
> > Mailer in "The White Negro," Dissent magazine, 1957.
which shows Bernstein and Sondheim kept up to date, we suppose.
> Does the dictionary not consider "cool as a cucumber" slang?
Probably not: as literal a simile as "hot as a pistol."
-- Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
