Basque language and late Paleolithic man
Holly
derives from a language that was spoken by the Cro-Magnon? Please share
your views on this. I value them. And while you are at it please
comment ... if so inclined ... on whether it is possible that "Begora"
an Irish expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red cow
-- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
Waiting with bated breath.
Thanks,
Holly
Brian M. Scott
wrote in
<news:1147559992.5...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[...]
> And while you are at it please comment ... if so inclined
> ... on whether it is possible that "Begora" an Irish
> expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red
> cow -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
They are not. <Begorra> is simply an Anglo-Irish alteration
of the expletive <by God>. A similar alteration is seen in
Shakespeare's <by gar> 'by God', found in the 18th century
as <begar>.
Brian
Holly
Thanks ... but are you sure? Remember Euskara is a very old language.
And the Celts and the Basques are genetically almost identical.
gnenian
If begora is by gorri / god, and modern gaelic for cow is bo,
and 'by' is bo and not 'by' so that basque 'bai gorri' is bai god,
or bo god, then ...No.
Too many languages.
Though red heads do TEND to go 'god' so it is suprising that it doesnt.
Britains red head cows and their supporters will be devestated.
Brian M. Scott
wrote in
<news:1147561900.6...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On 13 May 2006 15:39:52 -0700, Holly <noon_...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote in
>> <news:1147559992.5...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
>> in sci.lang:
>> [...]
>>> And while you are at it please comment ... if so inclined
>>> ... on whether it is possible that "Begora" an Irish
>>> expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red
>>> cow -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
>> They are not. <Begorra> is simply an Anglo-Irish alteration
>> of the expletive <by God>. A similar alteration is seen in
>> Shakespeare's <by gar> 'by God', found in the 18th century
>> as <begar>.
> Thanks ... but are you sure?
Yes.
> Remember Euskara is a very old language. And the Celts
> and the Basques are genetically almost identical.
It's no older than any other natural language. It is not
discoverably related to any other language.
Before going any further you should read 'FAQs About Basque
and the Basques' and 'Prehistory and connections with other
languages' at the late Larry Trask's Basque Page at
<http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/larryt/basque.html>; at
his death a few years ago he was the foremost authority on
the history of the language.
Brian
Holly
gnenian wrote:
> Holly wrote:
> > I am sure some of you have an opinion about whether the Basque language
> > derives from a language that was spoken by the Cro-Magnon? Please share
> > your views on this. I value them. And while you are at it please
> > comment ... if so inclined ... on whether it is possible that "Begora"
> > an Irish expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red cow
> > -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
> >
> > Waiting with bated breath.
> > Thanks,
> > Holly
>
> If begora is by gorri / god, and modern gaelic for cow is bo,
> and 'by' is bo and not 'by' so that basque 'bai gorri' is bai god,
> or bo god, then ...No.
> Too many languages.
Seems workable .... I'm getting a good feeling about this one.
>
> Though red heads do TEND to go 'god' so it is suprising that it doesnt.
>
> Britains red head cows and their supporters will be devestated.
Yeah. The red bull is there on the walls of Chauvet Cave. 30kbp.
Hands collaborate to depict what looks like a red auroch. Hmmm. Yes.
Please expound ... was it only your humor?
Alan
"Holly" <noon_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147561900.6...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Just can't help commenting that there are few things more impolite or more
irritating than someone arguing with a person who's given an answer to a
question they've been too lazy to research on their own. Perhaps your
posting should have been headed "Looking for someone to agree with me".
gnenian
Well English dictionaries do say it means 'by god' but when there are
expletives (which 'begorra' is said to be) like 'holy cow' even in
english...who knows? Cant really expound on it further though except
that if ANY breed of cow is likely to elicit an expletive like 'holy
cow' its highland cattle !
Holly
Thanks Brian, I am still not convinced that a word with so much power
as Baigorri would not somehow be adopted by people who lived next door.
The Aquitaine (Aquitània) language is a precursor to Basque
(Akitania) and the Celtiberian language wasn't far away. Perhaps I am
off on timeline? Anyway, the Celtiberians dwelt in the iberian
peninsula and spoke a celtic language.... So ... Maybe they sort of
shared the same red cow god at some point in pre-history or the Celts
just found it too much fun to tease the more serious
Aquitaines/Basques.
Yes I had read Larry Trask's FAQ about Basques.
Holly
The reason that may be true is very interesting. I mean the Holy Cow
thing But "Holy" and "cow" are not linguistically even close to
Baigorri, where as Begora *ain't* that different.
Brian M. Scott
wrote in
<news:1147567261.1...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>>> [...]
>> Yes.
> Thanks Brian, I am still not convinced that a word with
> so much power as Baigorri would not somehow be adopted by
> people who lived next door.
Your convictions apparently have nothing to do with the
facts. <Begorra> isn't a word of Celtic ancestry: it's an
*English* word, found in a particular dialect of English,
and it isn't particularly old.
> The Aquitaine (Aquitània) language is a precursor to Basque
> (Akitania) and the Celtiberian language wasn't far away. Perhaps I am
> off on timeline?
Off base.
> Anyway, the Celtiberians dwelt in the iberian
> peninsula and spoke a celtic language.... So ... Maybe they sort of
> shared the same red cow god at some point in pre-history or the Celts
> just found it too much fun to tease the more serious
> Aquitaines/Basques.
Where the devil did cows come from? Don't tell me you took
gnenian's ravings seriously; even *he* doesn't, so far as I
can tell.
> Yes I had read Larry Trask's FAQ about Basques.
You don't seem to have learned anything from it.
Brian
gnenian
Get a room weirdo.
Robert Tichacek
Holly <noon_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am sure some of you have an opinion about whether the Basque language
> derives from a language that was spoken by the Cro-Magnon? Please share
> your views on this. I value them.
[...]
There is no way to know. If an ancestor of Basque was being spoken in
Europe more than ~10,000 years ago, than it would be so descended - but
Basque could just as easily have been introduced to Europe after the
Cro-Magnon period. And in reference to your later post, any genetic
similarities between Basques and Celts have little to do with supposed
relationships between the languages.
rlt
--
The human mind is incapable of grasping infinity, and an endless pudding passes
our conception.
benlizross
It's tragic that Robert Langdon did not live long enough to read this
discussion. After all, he amassed a great deal of evidence to show that
Spanish sailors (many of them of Basque origin) had an enormous impact
on Polynesian culture after the wreck of the caravel "San Lesmes" in the
Tuamotus in the early 16th century. And surely no=one could look at the
Maori exclamation "Py korry!" (well attested in 19th century sources)
and not see a connection with "Baigorri"!
Ross Clark
Holly
Thank you. It seemed logical to me that certain key words would be
assimilated/acculturated even into different language groups. I assume
there would be evidence of this in those populations that thrived on
Silk Route trading. Of course I had not known about "Py korry" nor
Robert Langdon. I appreciate the reference.
I have found other significant cross-time and cross-culture sharing of
symbols... for example, the skull and cross bones and its connection to
Orion. Of course Dr. Carl Jung was using these shared symbols as
evidence for a collective unconscious. I am not so sure that he
wouldn't be studying genetics if he were still alive and energetic.
Once again, thanks.
Holly
Peter T. Daniels
> > Yes I had read Larry Trask's FAQ about Basques.
>
> It's tragic that Robert Langdon did not live long enough to read this
> discussion. After all, he amassed a great deal of evidence to show that
> Spanish sailors (many of them of Basque origin) had an enormous impact
> on Polynesian culture after the wreck of the caravel "San Lesmes" in the
> Tuamotus in the early 16th century. And surely no=one could look at the
> Maori exclamation "Py korry!" (well attested in 19th century sources)
> and not see a connection with "Baigorri"!
I always figured the "L." in "R. L." was Lawrence, yielding Larry.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
benlizross
Ah. I was speaking of a different person, whose full name was Robert
Langdon, an Australian. He also died not too long ago. Author of "The
Lost Caravel" and other books. I've just been reading his autobiography*
(or what he wrote of it, just covering the early years). Lived an
interesting life on the border between crankery and respectable
scholarship.
Ross Clark
*Every Goose A Swan - An Australian Autobiography, Farm Cove Press,
Sydney, 1995
Holly
Okay. I did look up the familiar sounding name of Robert Langdon and I
see that you are unkindly playing with me. Too bad. I am befuddled by
the vitriol some of you express toward my inquiries. I cannot imagine
what sort of personal lives you have that this is how you get your
kicks. But it does lend some understanding to R.T.'s comments about
genetics ... although I do not know any of you, I cannot help but
wonder if you get how genes are spread.
Peter T. Daniels
that leaked in from s.c.men? They certainly share a level of
gullibility.
Or am I misremembering the name?
Peter T. Daniels
It was a joke: I don't think Larry Trask would have offered a Basque
etymology for a Maori word.
But the coincidence of initials was irresistible.
Peter T. Daniels
> Okay. I did look up the familiar sounding name of Robert Langdon and I
> see that you are unkindly playing with me. Too bad. I am befuddled by
> the vitriol some of you express toward my inquiries. I cannot imagine
> what sort of personal lives you have that this is how you get your
> kicks. But it does lend some understanding to R.T.'s comments about
> genetics ... although I do not know any of you, I cannot help but
> wonder if you get how genes are spread.
Excuse me?
You move directly from ignorance and gullibility and refusal to accept
instruction from people who actually know what they're talking about, to
personal vilification?
And you have the _gall_ to complain when you are incapable of
recognizing "play"?
Holly
I am not Heidi. I don't know Heidi. From my experience most female
nicks are socks generated by men. My nicks are Holly and Pale.Pink.
The Pink nick was created for parody. I like Franz .... by "play
with" I assume you mean tease him? I would never tease Franz. I am
quilty of teasing others however.... but not in this newsgroup. Here,
I am sincerely trying to get *your* opinions. Also, I don't directly
post to soc.men ... far better kookologists then I, like Art Deco et al
have that covered,
About "gullibility," I trust that you are not all kooks and that what
you say is sincere otherwise I would not ask. In fact, I would not
post to this group. If you are saying that I am naive to believe you
are serious about the topic, when in fact you are not ... then I have
been foolish to believe in your intent. However, I do not accept
anything without investigation and questioning.
Holly
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
.....
>
> And you have the _gall_ to complain when you are incapable of
> recognizing "play"?
Oh for Pete's Slate!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Is this "Holly," that likes to play with Franz, the same as the "Heidi"
> > that leaked in from s.c.men? They certainly share a level of
> > gullibility.
> >
> > Or am I misremembering the name?
> > --
> > Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
> I am not Heidi. I don't know Heidi.
I don't know why you felt a need to type the rest of this paragraph. By
"play with Franz," I meant 'encourage him in his bizarre, albeit
harmless, fantasies'.
> From my experience most female
> nicks are socks generated by men. My nicks are Holly and Pale.Pink.
> The Pink nick was created for parody. I like Franz .... by "play
> with" I assume you mean tease him? I would never tease Franz. I am
> quilty of teasing others however.... but not in this newsgroup. Here,
> I am sincerely trying to get *your* opinions. Also, I don't directly
> post to soc.men ... far better kookologists then I, like Art Deco et al
> have that covered,
>
> About "gullibility," I trust that you are not all kooks and that what
> you say is sincere otherwise I would not ask. In fact, I would not
> post to this group. If you are saying that I am naive to believe you
> are serious about the topic, when in fact you are not ... then I have
> been foolish to believe in your intent. However, I do not accept
> anything without investigation and questioning.
"Gullibility" referred to your seizing upon Ross Clark's statement of
Langdon's ridiculous claim of a Basque etymology for a Maori word.
Your refusal to accept that Basque has nothing to do with "Begorrah"
does not speak well of your "trust."
Peter T. Daniels
Is that really what you think that expression is?
Holly
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Holly wrote:
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > .....
> > >
> > > And you have the _gall_ to complain when you are incapable of
> > > recognizing "play"?
> >
> > Oh for Pete's Slate!
>
> Is that really what you think that expression is?
> --
Who's not recognizing play?
Pale.Pink.
Don't you get it Holy Holly Sister? Your name starts with an 'H' and
so does Heidi's. Conclusive evidence for a scholar of writing systems.
You might as well confess. And while you're at it, stop spreading
lies about me, you idiot.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Holly wrote:
> > I am not Heidi. I don't know Heidi. From my experience most female
> > nicks are socks generated by men. My nicks are Holly and Pale.Pink.
> > The Pink nick was created for parody. I like Franz .... by "play
> > with" I assume you mean tease him? I would never tease Franz. I am
> > quilty of teasing others however.... but not in this newsgroup. Here,
> > I am sincerely trying to get *your* opinions. Also, I don't directly
> > post to soc.men ... far better kookologists then I, like Art Deco et al
> > have that covered,
> >
> > About "gullibility," I trust that you are not all kooks and that what
> > you say is sincere otherwise I would not ask. In fact, I would not
> > post to this group. If you are saying that I am naive to believe you
> > are serious about the topic, when in fact you are not ... then I have
> > been foolish to believe in your intent. However, I do not accept
> > anything without investigation and questioning.
>
> Don't you get it Holy Holly Sister? Your name starts with an 'H' and
> so does Heidi's. Conclusive evidence for a scholar of writing systems.
> You might as well confess. And while you're at it, stop spreading
> lies about me, you idiot.
Wow! Multiple Personality Disorder manifested right here in sci.lang!
Pale.Pink.
Please, Holly is struggling with it, so be gentle.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
This is not vitriol. This is a bit of fun. Bits of fun are not uncommon
on sci.lang. Vitriol is, fortunately, relatively rare.
I cannot imagine
> what sort of personal lives you have that this is how you get your
> kicks.
I get kicks from many other things besides bits of fun on sci.lang. You
don't need to imagine my personal life, and in return I promise I won't
imagine yours.
> But it does lend some understanding to R.T.'s comments about
> genetics ... although I do not know any of you, I cannot help but
> wonder if you get how genes are spread.
Is this some sort of clumsy innuendo about our several sex lives? Look,
you came along with one speculative etymological connection. Brian
explained nicely why it was most unlikely. I picked up the ball and ran
a bit further with it, since I really was amused by the fact that the
Maori expression showed a much closer phonetic match with the Basque
than the Irish. And that's it. Do you have something else about
language you want to discuss, or are you just going to hang around and
lecture us about what unpleasant people we are?
Ross Clark
Holly
bullies .... and first impressions are hard to shake. But no thanks.
I'll leave you to feign amongst yourselves.
Franz Gnaedinger
Holly wrote:
> I am sure some of you have an opinion about whether the Basque language
> derives from a language that was spoken by the Cro-Magnon? Please share
> your views on this. I value them. And while you are at it please
> comment ... if so inclined ... on whether it is possible that "Begora"
> an Irish expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red cow
> -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
>
> Waiting with bated breath.
> Thanks,
> Holly
Holly, you got a splendid archaeological intuition. Once again
you pose a question that opens a window on a long bygone
period of time.
If those words go back to the Magdalenium, or even Aurigniacium,
their origin must have been PEC UR of this meaning:
PEC --- a rather big, fairly strong and massive animal, a cow,
game, a goat, sheep, ibex; Latin pecus for cattle, pecunia for
money - the first Roman money was a copper or bronze ingot
with the picture of a cow and the value of a cow, pectus for
breast, English back, also pack for a group of animals
UR --- color, of a conspicuous color, British colour
AC UR --- an expanse of land with water (ac) of a conspicuous
color (ur); ocher, azure, Côte d'Azure
PEC UR --- a rather big animal of a conspicuous color
If Basque Baigorri refers to a red cow as a deitiy, the color
in question is red. My immediate question was: might the
red cow have been a constellation involving a reddish star?
Marie E.P. Koenig identified the horse with the sun, the bull
with the moon, the red horse in the rotunda of the Lascaux
cave with the morning sun, the descending horse at the
rear end of the axial gallery with the winter sun, the pair of
opposing ibices with midwinter (December 21). From this
I concluded that the glorious rotunda represents midsummer
(June 21), the red horse the rising midsummer sun, the white
bull beside her a full moon occuring on midsummer. The stags
in front of the bull represent our constellations of Sagittarius
and Scorpio, seen as the antlers of the divine stag-man who
guided and protected the solar horse and lunar bull. Scorpio
and Sagittarius are summer constellations. Across the sky
you find Orion, a winter constellation. Orion was seen as
the divine hind-woman, her sides were seen as the heads
and horns of the opposing ibices: Saiph-Alnitak-Betelgeuse,
Rigel-Mintaka-Bellatrix.
Now for the red cow. This may have been the Hyads and
the bright red star Aldebaran between Orion and the ecliptic,
seen as the horns of the divine cow, of the red cow, mother
of the lunar bull, or rather of the lunar bulls, for a bull was
not so much the moon itself but a lunation, a period of time:
new moon, waxing moon, full moon, waning moon, dying
moon, a period between 29 and 30 days. Each lunation
was followed by another one. The divine cow or red cow
gave birth to a new lunar bull every 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ...
days (according to a very ancient algorithm to calculate
lunations).
The walls of the Altamira cave are covered with marvellous
bisons: many bulls, many moons, many lunations, plenty
of time ... The largest animal in the Altamira cave, however,
is a hind, licking the horns of a small bison under her head
and neck. The divine hind or hind-woman (Orion) was then
a midwife, while the red cow was the mother of the many
bisons, the mother of the many moons, the mother of the
many lunations, the mother of time.
Is there evidence for the red cow in the role of the mother
of the lunar bulls? Yes, wonderful evidence. Consider again
the rotunda of Lascaux. The red horse and the white bull
by her side run in clockwise direction, as the sun and moon
move on the sky. There are three more bisons in that hall,
moving in the opposite direction, counter-clockwise. Under
each of them you can see a red cow, running in clockwise
direction, two of them with a calf. The bulls above them run
in the wrong direction as far as the sky is concerned, but
they move in the right direction when you consider how
a calf leaves the belly of her mother when being born.
So we identified a further Magdalenian and perhaps already
Aurigniacian constellation: the Hyads with red Aldebaran,
seen as the horns of the red cow, mother of the lunar bulls,
mother of lunations, mother of time.
"It's a fine days, begorra" (Webster's) --- It's a fine day,
mother of time ...
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Brian M. Scott
wrote in
<news:1147654676.7...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> Holly wrote:
[...]
>>> But it does lend some understanding to R.T.'s comments
>>> about genetics ... although I do not know any of you, I
>>> cannot help but wonder if you get how genes are spread.
>> Is this some sort of clumsy innuendo about our several
>> sex lives? Look, you came along with one speculative
>> etymological connection. Brian explained nicely why it
>> was most unlikely. I picked up the ball and ran a bit
>> further with it, since I really was amused by the fact
>> that the Maori expression showed a much closer phonetic
>> match with the Basque than the Irish. And that's it. Do
>> you have something else about language you want to
>> discuss, or are you just going to hang around and
>> lecture us about what unpleasant people we are?
> I would hang around if I felt like tormenting you. You
> are a bevy of bullies ....
A bevy? My word. I wonder which we are, maidens, ladies,
roe deer, quail, or larks. Ross, it's all your fault with
that larking about.
> and first impressions are hard to shake.
Yes, they are, and you made rather a poor one back in March.
You still got an honest answer to your question, however;
you just didn't get any benefit of the doubt when, as
expected, you showed that you prefer woo-woo nonsense to
facts.
> But no thanks. I'll leave you to feign amongst yourselves.
I wonder what on earth she thinks 'feign' means.
Brian
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Holly wrote:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On 13 May 2006 15:39:52 -0700, Holly <noon_...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote in
> > <news:1147559992.5...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> > in sci.lang:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > And while you are at it please comment ... if so inclined
> > > ... on whether it is possible that "Begora" an Irish
> > > expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red
> > > cow -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
> >
> > They are not. <Begorra> is simply an Anglo-Irish alteration
> > of the expletive <by God>. A similar alteration is seen in
> > Shakespeare's <by gar> 'by God', found in the 18th century
> > as <begar>.
> >
> > Brian
>
> Thanks ... but are you sure? Remember Euskara is a very old language.
> And the Celts and the Basques are genetically almost identical.
The similar Irish expression "bejaysus" from "by Jesus" adds weight to
Brian's explanation. The "d" -> "r" in "begorra" is a fairly common
change. For example, "d" and "r" alternate in a number of Tagalog
words suggesting that they only recently developed into separate
phonemes.
As Brian, I have always regarded these words as English (as spoken by
the Irish) and not Irish (meaning Gaelic). They are often used by
people who know almost no Irish. In my experience, bejaysus is much
more common than begorra. Begorra is more common in mock Irish
English.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
(As the name suggests, I have some Irish connections but I admit that I
know of no Basque connections.)
Holly
Thanks Sean ...
Richard Herring
Holly <noon_...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>gnenian wrote:
[...]
>> Well English dictionaries do say it means 'by god' but when there are
>> expletives (which 'begorra' is said to be) like 'holy cow' even in
>> english...who knows? Cant really expound on it further though except
>> that if ANY breed of cow is likely to elicit an expletive like 'holy
>> cow' its highland cattle !
>
>The reason that may be true is very interesting. I mean the Holy Cow
>thing
Did you try typing <"holy cow" etymology> into Google? Depending who you
believe, it appears to owe more to Hinduism or Batman & Robin than
anything *Celto-Basque.
>But "Holy" and "cow" are not linguistically even close to
>Baigorri, where as Begora *ain't* that different.
>
"Linguistically close" and "sounds similar" aren't remotely close in
meaning.
--
Richard Herring
Franz Gnaedinger
so well? The official explanation of begorra as by God
may be a case of folk etymology. Folk etymology and
quack etymology are also found in dictionaries and on
maps. An example from Switzerland. We have several
villages of Gallo-Roman origin that were called Cassinii
acum, which I translate as the expanse of land with water
(ac) belonging to one Cassinius. The Alemannic tribes
that invaded western Switzerland didn't understand
Cassiniiacum, so they turned it into Cassi Niacum and
then into Kuess Nacht, which means about Kissing Night.
Complete quack etymology. In the case of the German
Schreibreform, deliberate quack etymology has been
introduced by top-linguists of academe. Quack etymology
is part of linguistics. Begorra, explained as by God, may
well be a similar case as Cassiniacum turned into Kissing
Night: a false separation - Cassi / Niacum, Be / gorra,
and false deductions: Cassi - Kiss, Niacum - night,
be - by, gorra - God. In my opinion, Holly is right in linking
Basque Baigorri with Irish begorra, the separation is
bai - gorri, beg - orra, and the origin is PEC UR,
as explained below. This interpretation on the basis of
Magdalenian words I established long before led to yet
another archaeological insight, which is a fine piece of
evidence. While you, killrater, got nothing to say, nothing
to offer, no arguments, no courage.
Paul J Kriha
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:7wmz9b6ihe98.19yaatljw8ise$.dlg@40tude.net...
They must be especially hard to shake when she has
more than one of those.
> Yes, they are, and you made rather a poor one back in March.
> You still got an honest answer to your question, however;
> you just didn't get any benefit of the doubt when, as
> expected, you showed that you prefer woo-woo nonsense to
> facts.
>
> > But no thanks. I'll leave you to feign amongst yourselves.
>
> I wonder what on earth she thinks 'feign' means.
No doubt it's something bad and unwholesome.
pjk
> Brian
Holly
They are a bit tight assed... and then they whine. But nevertheless
... they are a source of entertainment.
Thanks for your insight.
As for the red cow. I offer this link.
http://donsmaps.com/images3/chauvethands.jpg
You can see much better, but you must hunt for this image at
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/chauvet/en/index.html
I am convinced that some of the posters to this newsgroup would have
laughed at Schliemann.
Too be old and jaded ... how sad. It's no way to go.
Peter T. Daniels
> I am convinced that some of the posters to this newsgroup would have
> laughed at Schliemann.
Schliemann wasn't a linguist. Why would we have any professional opinion
of him at all?
Holly
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Holly wrote:
>
> > I am convinced that some of the posters to this newsgroup would have
> > laughed at Schliemann.
>
> Schliemann wasn't a linguist.
Neither am I.
Neeraj Mathur
"Holly" <noon_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147737126.6...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Well as a Classicist, Schliemann doesn't make me laugh, he makes me angry.
He completely destroyed so much precious evidence simply because of a
narrow-minded view that he clung to dogmatically as he tore up the past. If
he'd been less cock-sure and excitable, and spent more time working
patiently, methodically, and conscientously, paying attention to discovered
facts (and artifacts) rather than flights of fancy, our knowledge of the
Bronze Age in Asia Minor would be far, far fuller. Oh well, I guess somebody
had to be the anti-paradigm before archaeology could become a field with
well-developed methods ... but still!
Neeraj Mathur
Franz Gnaedinger
Holly wrote:
>
> Thanks for your insight.
> As for the red cow. I offer this link.
> http://donsmaps.com/images3/chauvethands.jpg
Marvellous! The cow is consisting of red dots which symbolize life
and existence, to live and be, SAI in Magdalenian and perhaps
already in Aurigniacian. The dots can also be seen as lunar bulls
or calfs, remember the red bisons of Altamira. There is a further
red cow in the Chauvet cave, whose horns could well depict the
Hyads with red Aldebaran.
A correction: there are only two red cows in the rotunda of the
Lascaux cave, not three, as I wrongly stated; only two, and each
with a red calf.
There is a village called Bagnères de Bigorre / Begorre / Begorra
in the Hautes Pyrénées, and a village called Saint Etienne de
Baigorri in the Basses Pyrénées, both possible places where the
red cow might have been worshipped as mother of the lunar bull,
mother of the moons, mother of the lunations, mother of time,
appearing on the sky in the Hyads and red Aldebaran. There are
two hornlike peaks above Saint Etienne de Baigorri that look
promising, and, judging by images I googled for "baigorri" there
seems to be a funnel at the base of one mountain which could
have been a cult place of the goddess.
The Basque deitiy Beigorri or Baigorri was a spirit of caves and
abysses that sometimes appeared on the surface as red cow.
She was the protector of the houses of Mari. This deity may
overform the Magdalenian or perhaps Aurigniacian PEC UR,
red cow of Aldebaran and the Hyads, also present in caves
and crevices, for example in the Altamira cave and in a crevice
of that cave licked by a hind. Only the hind as midwife is painted
in the Altamira cave, there is no red cow as mother of the many
bisons (lunar bulls, moons, lunations, periods of 30 29 30 29 30
29 30 ... days); the red cow, then, is present in the cave itself
as her womb.
As for Schliemann: he didn't discover the Hissarlik as the place
of ancient Troy, this discovery is own to an Englishman whose
names eludes me for the moment, but Schliemann discovered
Tiryns and Mycenae. Do you know what academe said about
these places in the Argolis? Tiryns and Mycenae are fairly
recent buildings by Byzantinian barbars ...
Good luck with your novel
Franz Gnaedinger
Harlan Messinger
> Thanks Brian, I am still not convinced that a word with so much power
> as Baigorri would not somehow be adopted by people who lived next door.
Why would you adopt a word to which "people who lived next door"
ascribed power if in contrast it meant absolutely nothing to you?
> The Aquitaine (Aquitània) language is a precursor to Basque
> (Akitania) and the Celtiberian language wasn't far away. Perhaps I am
> off on timeline? Anyway, the Celtiberians dwelt in the iberian
> peninsula and spoke a celtic language.... So ... Maybe they sort of
> shared the same red cow god at some point in pre-history or the Celts
> just found it too much fun to tease the more serious
> Aquitaines/Basques.
Do you know that the English word "cleave" meaning "to split" and the
English word "cleave" meaning "to adhere to" are completely unrelated?
That the Spanish word "diaria", meaning "daily", is etymologically
unrelated to the word "daily"? Language is full of odd visual and
phonetic similarities that don't correspond to actual relationships
between words.
me
> Holly wrote:
>> Thanks Brian, I am still not convinced that a word with so much power
>> as Baigorri would not somehow be adopted by people who lived next door.
>
> Why would you adopt a word to which "people who lived next door"
> ascribed power if in contrast it meant absolutely nothing to you?
>
>> The Aquitaine (Aquitània) language is a precursor to Basque
>> (Akitania) and the Celtiberian language wasn't far away. Perhaps I am
>> off on timeline? Anyway, the Celtiberians dwelt in the iberian
>> peninsula and spoke a celtic language.... So ... Maybe they sort of
>> shared the same red cow god at some point in pre-history or the Celts
>> just found it too much fun to tease the more serious
>> Aquitaines/Basques.
>
> Do you know that the English word "cleave" meaning "to split" and the
> English word "cleave" meaning "to adhere to" are completely unrelated?
The first one has a cognate in "glyph".
> That the Spanish word "diaria", meaning "daily", is etymologically
> unrelated to the word "daily"?
Re. the latter, no Latin cognate is listed for Germanic *dagam.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=+203&root=config
Holly
Wow Me! That is one fantastic link. Thanks.
Neeraj Mathur
"me" <nor...@noreply.net> wrote in message
news:Q6oag.76899$gE.60996@dukeread06...
Well let's start with Romance, which is easy. The Latin 'dies' and its
associated words, which yield most of the Romance forms, is ultimately from
the name of an Indo-European deity, *die:us (Skt Dyauh, Grk Zeus, Lat
Iu(piter)). This word had a slightly odd declension with lengthened grade in
the nom and acc; the original accusative was *die:m (dialectal Greek Zen,
Skt Dya:m) but the rest of the cases were made to a full-grade *dieu- or a
zero-grade *diu-. Attic Greek regularised the declension by levelling from
the genitive, *diuos, which with the loss of digamma became Dios; on the
basis of this they built the new accusative (Dia). Latin, for the name of
the deity, generalised the full-grade *dieu- which yielded its new
accusative (Iovem etc.). However, on the basis of the old accusative *die:m
they created a new paradigm, as though it were a regular word with a stem in
long -e:, and made a new nominative die:s, which is the paradigm for 'day'.
(This makes sense since the deity is usually associated with the sky; it's
no huge leap to see it in early Italic being particularly associated with
the bright sky, thus the daytime.) (This declension in Indo-European is also
seen in the word for 'cow', *gwe:us.)
Now, let's look at that Pokorny connection you've posted. I for one don't
believe for a second that there is any connection whatsoever between Gemanic
*dagaz and Indo-Iranian *ahar/n. In the first instance, the Indo-Iranian
word is clearly heteroclite, with a straightforward variation of r and n
that we know from other roots (Indic preserves this; Iranian levels, it
seems, in favour of -n). Now, we know that the heteroclite declension was
preserved into Proto-Germanic, since we see the alternation in 'water'
between the different branches. Not so here - the word is masculine and
thematic! Not to mention the even more serious problem of the 'd', present
in Germanic, absent in Indo-Iranian. Pokorny's answer is that this was added
in Germanic by an analogy with a word for 'burn'. I don't find that
credible. In the end, this 'etymology' is based on one single shared
phoneme, and that's simply not enough.
Neeraj Mathur
Alan
"Holly" wrote
[...]
> > Holly wrote:
> >> Thanks Brian, I am still not convinced that a word with so much power
> >> as Baigorri would not somehow be adopted by people who lived next door.
> >> The Aquitaine (Aquitània) language is a precursor to Basque
> >> (Akitania) and the Celtiberian language wasn't far away. Perhaps I am
> >> off on timeline? Anyway, the Celtiberians dwelt in the iberian
> >> peninsula and spoke a celtic language.... So ... Maybe they sort of
> >> shared the same red cow god at some point in pre-history or the Celts
> >> just found it too much fun to tease the more serious
> >> Aquitaines/Basques.
It's already been pointed to you by more than one person that "Begorra" is
not even an Irish Gaelic expression ---- it is ENGLISH. Although it doesn't
look like you're one to let facts stand in your way, you might want to let
that notion sink in a little deeper before you continue positing a
"Celtiberian" connection that is not there.
Franz Gnaedinger
Neeraj Mathur wrote:
>
> Well as a Classicist, Schliemann doesn't make me laugh, he makes me angry.
> He completely destroyed so much precious evidence simply because of a
> narrow-minded view that he clung to dogmatically as he tore up the past. If
> he'd been less cock-sure and excitable, and spent more time working
> patiently, methodically, and conscientously, paying attention to discovered
> facts (and artifacts) rather than flights of fancy, our knowledge of the
> Bronze Age in Asia Minor would be far, far fuller. Oh well, I guess somebody
> had to be the anti-paradigm before archaeology could become a field with
> well-developed methods ... but still!
>
> Neeraj Mathur
Even the most diligent archaeological campaign destroys information.
Not all ouf our archaeologists are working carefully. There is treasure
hunting going on in our time. Many diggings are not documented.
Millions of finds disappear in museum depots and can't be retrieved
anymore. The brilliant paintings in Egyptian tombs are fading away.
The Stone Age paintings in the Lascaux cave lasted for 15,000 years.
Just 50 years of exposure to the Early Concrete Age and they suffer
from serious damage. We know what happens with the legacy of
Mesopotamia these years. Our time is destroying as much as
Schliemann did, and not just at a couple of sites but on a global
scale. I for one am developing non-invasive methods of archaeology:
interpreting early symbols (figurines, buildings, landscape of a site,
symbols in myths and early writings), mathematical examinations
(calendars, buildings, for example Egyptian pyramids), now also
linguistic reconstructions, and I can tell by the response how little
such approaches are valued. I have been and am meeting with every
shade of sarcasm in sci.archaeology and sci.lang.
As for the name of Zeus. In another message in this thread, but under
another subtitle, you link the name of Zeus with Indo-European dei.us.
Do you now that the earliest version of the name we have is different,
namely Ss Ey R ? middle Helladic, from around 1650. Indo-European
is just a reconstruction. Very plausible in many aspects, but not the
Gospel. We can question Pokorny. I propose another explanation for
the name of Sseyr, namely Magdalenian SHA CA UR, ruler (sha) of
the colored (ur) sky (ca), which would have become Sseyr in Greece
and sky in English. Britain was Magdalenian territorry, there was
a landbridge in early times; when the climate changed in the late
phase of the Magdalenium, when animals retired to the north and
east, people followed them, some to Britain in around 13 000 BP
(if memory serves). Magdalenian PEC UR for Aldebaran and the
Hyads, colored / red cow, mother of the moon bulls, of lunations,
of time, may then have survived and become begor and begorra,
which, understood as "by god" isn't so far off the hypothetical origin.
Reinterpretations also happen in religion. The Basque deitiy
Baigorri or Beigorri, a spirit living in caves and abysses, from time
to time appearing on the surface as red cow, protecting the houses
of Mari, would have been a reinterpretation of hypothetical PEC UR.
I wonder about Mari. May there have been a Magdalenian word MAR
with the meaning of shining, glittering? Latin marmor is the word for
a shining stone, but also for the shining surface of the sea, Latin
mare. Consider the Sea of Marmara. The red cow, then, had been
protecting shining houses, glittering houses. Which houses may
these have been? An indication is provided by Mesopotamian
astronomy and astrology (one and the same in those times). The
Hyads and Pleiads were called Golden Door by the astronomers
of Babylon. A door leads into a town, which is made up of houses.
The shining and glittering houses in question may have been the
constellations along the ecliptic, traversed by the moon, whose
mother, the red cow, seen in the Hyads and red Aldebaran, was
also protecting her sons, the lunar bulls, each one representing
a lunation ... What if there was a Magdalenian word MIR for plenty,
surviving in myriad? MIR is present in Altamira, a cave teeming
with painted bisons, lunar bulls, lunations to come, representing
plenty of time, of lifetime for those people ...
We are here in a scientific forum, where we are allowed to do
more than just recycle textbooks. We can go for new ideas
and develop new approaches.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
pikatxu
( reading thread )
nevermind... :-/
--
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
Harlan Messinger
Another just came to mind: "Rav", a title for a rabbi, has nothing to do
with "Rev", a title for a minister.
John Atkinson
> great, a thread about my language !
Yeah, it's been a while between drinks, eh?
> ( reading thread )
>
> nevermind... :-/
The use of the word "Paleolithic" in the same breath as "Basque" should've
scared you off before you even started.
J.
Fionn Mac Cumhaill
>
>gnenian wrote:
>> Holly wrote:
>> > gnenian wrote:
>> > > Holly wrote:
>> > > > I am sure some of you have an opinion about whether the Basque language
>> > > > derives from a language that was spoken by the Cro-Magnon? Please share
>> > > > your views on this. I value them. And while you are at it please
>> > > > comment ... if so inclined ... on whether it is possible that "Begora"
>> > > > an Irish expletive for god and "Baigorri" a Basque god --- the red cow
>> > > > -- (god of protection) are related linguistically?
>> > > >
>> > > > Waiting with bated breath.
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Holly
>> > >
>> > > If begora is by gorri / god, and modern gaelic for cow is bo,
>> > > and 'by' is bo and not 'by' so that basque 'bai gorri' is bai god,
>> > > or bo god, then ...No.
>> > > Too many languages.
>> >
... snip ...
>>
>> Well English dictionaries do say it means 'by god' but when there are
>> expletives (which 'begorra' is said to be) like 'holy cow' even in
>> english...who knows? Cant really expound on it further though except
>> that if ANY breed of cow is likely to elicit an expletive like 'holy
>> cow' its highland cattle !
>
>The reason that may be true is very interesting. I mean the Holy Cow
>thing But "Holy" and "cow" are not linguistically even close to
>Baigorri, where as Begora *ain't* that different.
Bear in mind that if one language is in close enough contact with
another so that words move from one to another, the process will not
stop with just one word. If "begorra" is of Basque origin, you should
expect other Basque words to be found in Ireland as well. It's not
necessarily unreasonable to expect some Basque influence in Ireland -
Spanish ships with Basque sailors aboard could easily reach Irish
ports, and might have contributed some words to the Irish, in
particular Irish sailors, but you should expect other Basque
vocabulary to show up as well. If sailors are involved you would
expect nautical terms and profanities to come across.
The same sailors could also reach Scottish ports, and a similar
influence should then be visible in both the English and Gaelic spoken
in the west of Scotland.
If the borrowings are very old, they should show up in in the
linguistic history of Ireland, and should be evident in both the
mediaeval manuscripts and in the oral storytelling tradition of the
Gaelic-speaking peoples. That tradition survived, in both Scotland and
Ireland, long enough for many of those ancient tales to be carefully
recorded by competent linguistic scholars.
Foreign influences in the Gaelic of Ireland and Scotland do exist and
have been identified by those scholars. Words of Norse and Latin
origin are abundant. Do note that the Gaelic languages of Scotland and
Ireland are by no means independent of each other - the two countries
are so close together that there are several places where an observer
standing on the shore of one country can see the opposite coast with
the naked eye, and people have been moving across in both directions
since before the beginning of recorded history.
Words of Basque origin are certainly not abundant. For example,
consider the "Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic" by Alexander
MacBain. At the beginning of that dictionary, there is a short table
of abbreviations, many of which are for other languages which were
mentioned in the body of the dictionary. There are entries such as
"Zd." meaning "Zend or Old Bactrian", "Lett" meaning "Lettish", and
"Bulg." meaning "Bulgarian", but there is none for "Basque" - it
wasn't needed.
To make a long story short, if "begorra" was of Basque origin, that
fact would be very well known to linguists, and you would have had an
immediate confirmation of your guess of a Basque origin for the word.
Peter T. Daniels
> Bear in mind that if one language is in close enough contact with
> another so that words move from one to another, the process will not
> stop with just one word. If "begorra" is of Basque origin, you should
> expect other Basque words to be found in Ireland as well. It's not
> necessarily unreasonable to expect some Basque influence in Ireland -
> Spanish ships with Basque sailors aboard could easily reach Irish
> ports, and might have contributed some words to the Irish, in
> particular Irish sailors, but you should expect other Basque
> vocabulary to show up as well. If sailors are involved you would
> expect nautical terms and profanities to come across.
Note also the fact that Basque words are found in Micmac (a northeastern
North American coast language) dating to pre-Columbian contacts with
Basque fishermen in the North Atlantic (in the 1450s).
Holly
Fionn Mac Cool,
Yes. That makes perfect sense. I was never invested in the idea. It
was just an impulse charged with a bit of malicious humor. It is easy
to cause an uproar here and I do like to see these so-called scholars
get all huffy ... or should I say hoofy. So stick around.~ never know
when my next impulse will arise.
Thanks for your contribution. I always admire a logical mind.
Holly, daughter of Ursula
Peter T. Daniels
> Fionn Mac Cool,
> Yes. That makes perfect sense. I was never invested in the idea. It
> was just an impulse charged with a bit of malicious humor. It is easy
> to cause an uproar here and I do like to see these so-called scholars
> get all huffy ... or should I say hoofy. So stick around.~ never know
> when my next impulse will arise.
So the self-confessed troll will henceforth be ignored.
What is the supposed difference between "huffy" and "hoofy"?
> Thanks for your contribution. I always admire a logical mind.
> Holly, daughter of Ursula
Too bad you don't have one.
Holly
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Holly wrote:
>
> > Fionn Mac Cool,
> > Yes. That makes perfect sense. I was never invested in the idea. It
> > was just an impulse charged with a bit of malicious humor. It is easy
> > to cause an uproar here and I do like to see these so-called scholars
> > get all huffy ... or should I say hoofy. So stick around.~ never know
> > when my next impulse will arise.
>
> So the self-confessed troll will henceforth be ignored.
So is this your final post to me? .... I'll bet dollars to donuts that
it is not so. <g>
Daniel al-Autistiqui
>on sci.lang. Vitriol is, fortunately, relatively rare.
Why did you say "rare"?
daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
Holly
Daniel al-Autistiqui wrote:
> On 14 May 2006 16:17:52 -0700, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>
> >on sci.lang. Vitriol is, fortunately, relatively rare.
>
> Why did you say "rare"?
Too little oxygen?
>
> daniel mcgrath
> --
> Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
> for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
>
> Developmentally disabled;
> has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
> Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
> & periodic bouts of depression.
Oh stop bragging.
Douglas G. Kilday
"Neeraj Mathur" <neem...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
> "me" <nor...@noreply.net> wrote ...
> >
> > [...]
Pokorny must have had some reason to refer the Germanic word to a
heteroclitic root, rather than simply deriving it from *dhegWh- 'brennen'
(Lat. <fove:re> etc.) like earlier IEists. My guess is that he did this to
account for the scattered weak variants of the word in Germanic: OE <daga>,
gen. pl. <dagena> beside the more usual <dæg>, nom. pl. <dagas>; Silesian
<toi> from a weak *tago corresponding to OE <daga>; and the fossilized weak
gen. pl. <tagen> used adverbially in NHG, e.g. <dieser Tagen> 'these days'
cited from Goethe. The Skt. nom./acc. <ahah.> beside <ahar> shows that an
s-stem was also in use. I suspect Pokorny's scenario involved Germanic
using mainly the inherited s-stem, and converting the r/n-stem to a simple
n-stem, i.e. a weak noun.
It's not unheard of for r/n-heteroclites to have alternate stems. *oudhr/n-
(Grk. <outhar>, gen. <outhatos>), levelled to an r-stem in Latin and
Germanic, has a parallel nt-stem in the P-Italic river-name <Oufens>, whence
the <tribus Oufentina>.
I agree with you that d- being added in Gmc. from reflexes of *dhegWh- is
implausible; one would expect rather that these reflexes would have simply
been retained in the sense 'day'. I consider it more likely that *dh- was
added in PIE as a completive prefix, as with *g^hem-, *dhg^hom- suggested in
an earlier posting.