How do you pronounce GIF (file format)?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw

[annily]

On 24.05.13 10:13, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw
>

Interesting quote from the comments:

"It's pretty funny that all of you are apparently too young to remember
the GIF/JIF pronunciation switch in the early 90s."

I'm not young but I don't remember that. I'd only ever heard it with a
hard G before this latest revelation. Perhaps because I wasn't online
much in the early '90s.

--
Lifelong resident of Adelaide, South Australia

[anal...@hotmail.com]

On May 23, 8:43 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciatio...


"As we explained when GIF was selected as Oxford Dictonaries USA Word
of the Year 2012, 'GIF may be pronounced with either a soft g, as in
giant, or a hard g, as in graphic. The programmers who developed the
format preferred a prounciation with a soft g - in homage to the
commercial tagline of the peanut butter brand Jif, they supposedly
quipped "choosy developers choose GIF. However, the pronunciation with
a hard g is now very widespread and readily understood'".


If we assume that it was originally said the way the inventors said it
- this is a directly observed diachronic change from [j] to [g] before
a front vowel.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 23, 9:16 pm, "analys...@hotmail.com" <analys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

No, it's a spelling pronunciation. It stands for "Graphics Interchange
Format."

[Odysseus]

In article
<0b0d8880-fcd7-489a...@g7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>,

Isn't [j] the initial consonant in "yip"? Although I haven't heard the
commercial tagline, I would assume "Jif" to begin with [dZ], as does
"giant".

Anyway, the "hard G" pronunciation of "GIF" may be an echo of the
unabbreviated form, or perhaps from a sense that the I, 'really' being
an initial, is disqualified from modifying the sound of the preceding
letter. Then there are such examples as "giddy", "gills", "gimlet",
"git", and "gizmo" that might be followed: exceptions to I's usual
G-softening are not uncommon.

--
Odysseus

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On May 24, 7:12 pm, Odysseus <odysseus1479...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
> In article
> <0b0d8880-fcd7-489a-aa89-78cf1f918...@g7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>,

Not to mention "give" (#97 by frequency, according to Wiki).

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:42:25 +0930, annily <ann...@annily.invalid>
wrote:

>On 24.05.13 10:13, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw
>>
>
>Interesting quote from the comments:
>
>"It's pretty funny that all of you are apparently too young to remember
>the GIF/JIF pronunciation switch in the early 90s."
>
>I'm not young but I don't remember that. I'd only ever heard it with a
>hard G before this latest revelation. Perhaps because I wasn't online
>much in the early '90s.

I was involved with computers long before the GIF format was invented
and have only ever heard it with the hard-g sound (as in "go" or "beg").

It is possible that if I had overheard someone using the j sound,
without recognising what they were talking about, I would have assumed
that they were speaking of a different format: "JIF" or "JIFF", perhaps.

The OED added an entry for GIF in June 2006. That gives both the j and
hard-g sounds in both BrE and AmE. It gives the j version first in BrE
and the hard-g version first in AmE.

It seems natural to me that as the G in GIF is the initial letter of
Graphic that it should be pronounced the same as in that word. To me,
there is nothing about the following letters, "IF", that would encourage
a change from hard-g to j.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Nick from England]

"annily" <ann...@annily.invalid> wrote in message
news:519ebe7b$0$24710$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

<g> Some tears ago we had trubble in England wi' Jif Lemons changing their
name to Cif, but, as my dad was always telling me, "That has nothing to do
with the case!", lol.

--
NfE

[musika]

On 24/05/2013 10:01, Nick from England wrote:

> <g> Some tears ago we had trubble in England wi' Jif Lemons changing their
> name to Cif, but, as my dad was always telling me, "That has nothing to do
> with the case!", lol.

Good luck putting Cif on your pancakes.
--
Ray
UK

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:34:53 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

All good clean fun.

[jgharston]

Peter Duncanson wrote:
> >Good luck putting Cif on your pancakes.
>
> All good clean fun.

Cif Microliquid, where are you?

JGH

[Nick from England]

"musika" <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com> wrote in message
news:knnj15$ni2$1...@dont-email.me...

LOL - I got 6 pancakes from Asda for �1 on Pancake Day and a Jif Lemon -
still got it - handy for fish!

--
NfE

[Ian Jackson]

In message
<00997c54-ff45-4180...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> writes
>http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-e
>rupts/?hpw

Next they'll be telling us that jaypegs are really gaypegs.
--
Ian

[R H Draney]

Ian Jackson filted:

The ones with cats and funny captions are jape eggs....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Bill McCray]

I still can't find the Like button.

Bill in Kentucky

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

The "i" makes it easy to go either way:

giant gibbon
gibber gibbous
gibberish Gibson
gibbet giddy
Gibraltar Gideon
gigantic gift
gigolo gig
gill giggle
gin Gilbert
ginger gild
gingivitis gill
ginsing gimlet
giraffe gimmick
gist gimp
ginkgo
gird
girder
girdle
girl
girth
git
give
gizmo
gizzard

The first discussion I see on Usenet is from September, 1991, on
alt.folklore.computers, where it was noted that there was an official
pronunciation.

>GIF - "jiff" / "giff" (as in "giraffe" vs. "garbage")

"jiff" - this is the official pronunciation (yes, they actually
have one!). I still hear "giff" from a few people, I even heard
"gief" from one deranged person ("eye" in the middle).

It was a shibboleth back then here in Silicon Valley, in my
experience. Using the hard /g/ marked you as a newbie. Probably
precisely *because* it meant that you had guessed the pronunciation
from reading it rather than learning it by hearing somebody in the
know say it.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche
SF Bay Area (1982-) | is chaunge
Chicago (1964-1982) |Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes
| tho
evan.kir...@gmail.com |That hadden prys now wonder nyce and
| straunge
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |Us thenketh hem, and yet they spake
| hem so
| Chaucer

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Jayfegs. The "p" is from "photographic".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |English is about as pure as a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |cribhouse whore. We don't just
Chicago (1964-1982) |borrow words; on occasion, English
|has pursued other languages down
evan.kir...@gmail.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious
|and rifle their pockets for new
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |vocabulary.
| --James D. Nicoll

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 17:19:17 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

[...]

> Jayfegs. The "p" is from "photographic".

I always thought that Jpeg was an evil dwarf from some fantasy novel
(along with his brother Mpeg).

(I wish I could say that was original, but it's not.)

--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:46:49 -0400, Bill McCray wrote:
>I still can't find the Like button.

I have that problem every time I need to mend a shirt.

�R - At Ebay you'll find a great range of Doom
<http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/bluemoon.html>

[Ian Jackson]

In message <mwrjx6...@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes

I think that this is an example of the innate American insistence of
pronouncing new words (or, more often, existing words which are new to
them) by analogy to similar words that they are familiar with -
sometimes with rather bizarre results.

My experience of computer people is the that they can sometimes be
amazingly illogical and lacking in lateral thinking. While the
inventors* of the name 'GIF' undoubtedly have the right to decide how it
should be pronounced, it's quite obvious that the 'G' stands for a hard
G - so they shouldn't be surprised if logical, lateral thinkers get it
wrong.
*Probably a decision of the marketing department, and not the engineers.
--
Ian

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 17:19:17 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum

<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> In message
>> <00997c54-ff45-4180...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
>> Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> writes
>>>http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-e
>>>rupts/?hpw
>>
>> Next they'll be telling us that jaypegs are really gaypegs.
>
>Jayfegs. The "p" is from "photographic".

And, of course, the final "G" might have a j sound:

JPEG: spoken as "jayfej".

[annily]

I don't see that as particularly American. I think it applies to most
people, and I think it's such comparison with "gift" that has caused the
hard G to become the more common pronunciation.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 25, 3:34 am, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <mwrjx67e....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes

> >The first discussion I see on Usenet is from September, 1991, on
> >alt.folklore.computers, where it was noted that there was an official
> >pronunciation.
>
> >    >GIF - "jiff" / "giff" (as in "giraffe" vs. "garbage")
>
> >    "jiff" - this is the official pronunciation (yes, they actually
> >    have one!).  I still hear "giff" from a few people, I even heard
> >    "gief" from one deranged person ("eye" in the middle).
>
> >It was a shibboleth back then here in Silicon Valley, in my
> >experience.  Using the hard /g/ marked you as a newbie.  Probably
> >precisely *because* it meant that you had guessed the pronunciation
> >from reading it rather than learning it by hearing somebody in the
> >know say it.
>
> I think that this is an example of the innate American insistence of
> pronouncing new words (or, more often, existing words which are new to
> them) by analogy to similar words that they are familiar with -
> sometimes with rather bizarre results.

Excuse me? Do you say GA-ridge or ga-RAZH ?

Do you say MILL-un or mi-LAHN ?

[Bill McCray]

On 5/24/2013 11:34 PM, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 19:46:49 -0400, Bill McCray wrote:
>> I still can't find the Like button.
>
> I have that problem every time I need to mend a shirt.

Now I want again to find it.

Bill in Kentucky

[Ian Jackson]

In message
<97ee54ac-21c4-488d...@cl9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> writes

GA-ridge (a slovenly apology for GA-rage).

>Do you say MILL-un or mi-LAHN ?
>

As in Milan, Italy? I say mill-ANN.

What's this got to do with GIF and JIF?
--
ian

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:

No, that's from "group". What you're looking for is something like
the programming language Prologue, short for "PROgramation en
LOGique".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The look on our faces isn't confusion.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |It's disbelief.
Chicago (1964-1982) |
| Jon Stewart
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 25, 10:43 am, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <97ee54ac-21c4-488d-88d1-304f6a9aa...@cl9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> writes

Gielgud in that strange film of The Tempest says MILL-un, and I have
also heard it from historians.

> What's this got to do with GIF and JIF?

What makes you suppose it does?

It has to do with the slander about "innate American insistence."
Americans generally try to pronounce borrowed words as in the source
language (mutatis mutandis), while Britons apparently believe that
anything written with the roman alphabet should be pronounced as if it
were ancestral English, i.e. with the Great Vowel Shift and English
stress patterns.

I refer you to Goodbye, Mr. Chips (the original version; I don't know
whether the theme of Latin pronunciation was retained in the O'Toole
version). And before that, to the controversy over Erasmus's Greek.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Demonstrating the innate British insistence of pronouncing new words
by analogy to similar words they are familiar with, sometimes with
rather bizarre results?

>>Do you say MILL-un or mi-LAHN ?
>>
> As in Milan, Italy? I say mill-ANN.
>
> What's this got to do with GIF and JIF?

The word, as attested by the coiner, is /dZIf/ ("jiff"). Anybody who
pronounces it /gIf/ ("giff") is doing so by analogy to similar words
they are familiar with or learned it from somebody in a similar
situation. Anybody who persists in such a pronunciation after being
corrected is "insisting on" such a pronunciation-by-analogy.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The law of supply and demand tells us
SF Bay Area (1982-) |that when the price of something is
Chicago (1964-1982) |artificially set below market level,
|there will soon be none of that thing
evan.kir...@gmail.com |left--as you may have noticed the
|last time you tried to buy something
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |for nothing.
| P.J. O'Rourke

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 07:48:44 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum

<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 17:19:17 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> In message
>>>> <00997c54-ff45-4180...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> writes
>>>>>http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-e
>>>>>rupts/?hpw
>>>>
>>>> Next they'll be telling us that jaypegs are really gaypegs.
>>>
>>>Jayfegs. The "p" is from "photographic".
>>
>> And, of course, the final "G" might have a j sound:
>>
>> JPEG: spoken as "jayfej".
>
>No, that's from "group".

Yes. I realise that.

If the G in GIF can be spoken as J so can the G in JPEG. ;-)

> What you're looking for is something like
>the programming language Prologue, short for "PROgramation en
>LOGique".

--

[Ian Jackson]

In message <2do1q89l9p0e1v3b6...@4ax.com>, "Peter
Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes
>


>
>

>If the G in GIF can be spoken as J so can the G in JPEG. ;-)
>

No really ;o).

There's a sort of rule where C or G followed by an E or and I tend to be
soft* (with a vast number of exceptions), and when followed by an A or
an O are almost always hard**. However, I can't immediately think of any
words where a final G is soft.
*Presumably those with Latin/Italian/Spanish origins.
**"Gaol" is one which confuses me. I always see it as "goal". I was
brought up on a diet of Desperate Dan, in the Dandy comic, and he
frequently got put in "jail" (well, he does live in the Wild West).

However, as the G in GIF stands for a hard G, there's absolutely no
justification for deciding to pronounce it JIF. I strongly suspect that
the decision was taken by those who had little what of this new-fangled
GIF was. If it was a positive decision by the inventors of GIFs, then it
was the wrong decision.

>>
>>
>>
>

--
Ian

[pauljk]

"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DtmJQoPA...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...

Not to mention the jaily coloured gay birds.

pjk

[Andy Walker]

On 25/05/13 17:41, Ian Jackson wrote:
> **"Gaol" is one which confuses me. I always see it as "goal".

It confused the stonemasons of 18thC Nottingham as well;
one of the doorways of the Shire Hall is labelled "COUNTY GOAL".

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

[R H Draney]

Ian Jackson filted:

>
>There's a sort of rule where C or G followed by an E or and I tend to be
>soft* (with a vast number of exceptions), and when followed by an A or
>an O are almost always hard**. However, I can't immediately think of any
>words where a final G is soft.

I think there's some two-veg in the frig....r

[Adam Funk]

Of course, AmE gets French words "right": courage, image, advantage,
baggage, lang(u)age, sa(u)vage, visage, voyage, mucilage, portage.


--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. --- Sabine Baring-Gould

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 25, 5:17 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-05-25, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On May 25, 3:34 am, Ian Jackson
> ><ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> I think that this is an example of the innate American insistence of
> >> pronouncing new words (or, more often, existing words which are new to
> >> them) by analogy to similar words that they are familiar with -
> >> sometimes with rather bizarre results.
>
> > Excuse me? Do you say GA-ridge or ga-RAZH ?
>
> Of course, AmE gets French words "right": courage, image, advantage,
> baggage, lang(u)age, sa(u)vage, visage, voyage, mucilage, portage.

Those borrowings are much older than the Br/Am split. They reflect the
pronunciation of French at the time.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, they don't. This was gone over in a lengthy discussion in 2011.
French words arrive in English with final stress (cf. Chaucer), but
large numbers have been shifted to initial over the centuries. British
and American agree on many of these, as in the examples above. A
certain number have been shifted in BrEng but not in AmEng (lists were
given), and a much smaller number seem to go the other way (of which
"recluse" is the only one I can remember).

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 15:23:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:1e0a5ddc-f75a-4cb3...@dk8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:

They do certainly don't all. Chaucer does, however:

Redy to wenden on my pilgrymage
To Caunterbury with ful devout corage

...

A not-heed hadde he, with a broun vis�ge.
Of woodecraft wel koude he al the us�ge.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:21:29 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in
<news:zrkvomd6fozz.v1dnr7dkl3tc$.d...@40tude.net> in
sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:

> On Sat, 25 May 2013 15:23:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
> <news:1e0a5ddc-f75a-4cb3...@dk8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:
>
>> On May 25, 5:17�pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>>> On 2013-05-25, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>>>> On May 25, 3:34�am, Ian Jackson
>>>><ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>> I think that this is an example of the innate American insistence of
>>>>> pronouncing new words (or, more often, existing words which are new to
>>>>> them) by analogy to similar words that they are familiar with -
>>>>> sometimes with rather bizarre results.
>
>>>> Excuse me? Do you say GA-ridge or ga-RAZH ?
>
>>> Of course, AmE gets French words "right": courage, image,
>>> advantage, baggage, lang(u)age, sa(u)vage, visage,
>>> voyage, mucilage, portage.
>
>> Those borrowings are much older than the Br/Am split. They
>> reflect the pronunciation of French at the time.
>
> They do certainly don't all. Chaucer does, however:

Scratch 'do': it's a refugee from an earlier incarnation.

[Andrew B]

On 25/05/2013 16:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> It has to do with the slander about "innate American insistence."
> Americans generally try to pronounce borrowed words as in the source
> language (mutatis mutandis), while Britons apparently believe that
> anything written with the roman alphabet should be pronounced as if it
> were ancestral English, i.e. with the Great Vowel Shift and English
> stress patterns.

I don't really understand why certain Americans on these groups are
apparently so wedded to this theory, nor what they think it proves if
BrEng follows the source language 17% of the time while USEng does so
19% of the time. (Numbers made up, but I bet the difference isn't far off).

Presumably whatever it does prove, the apparent British tendency to try
to *spell* certain borrowed words as in the source language, while
Americans apparently believe that anything spoken in the English
language should be spelt as if it were ancestral English (e.g.
"manoeuvre/maneuver"), proves precisely the opposite.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:

> However, as the G in GIF stands for a hard G, there's absolutely no
> justification for deciding to pronounce it JIF. I strongly suspect
> that the decision was taken by those who had little what of this
> new-fangled GIF was.

You strongly suspect wrong.

> If it was a positive decision by the inventors of GIFs,

It was.

> then it was the wrong decision.

It was a transparent reference to the "Jif" brand of peanut butter
and, in particular, to its slogan, "Choosy mothers choose Jif".

According to Steve Wilhite, the creator of the GIF format, the
intended pronunciation deliberately echoes the American peanut
butter brand, Jif, and CompuServe employees would often say
"Choosy developers choose GIF", spoofing this brand's television
commercials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gif

The pronunciation is first mentioned on Usenet in 1987, in
comp.sys.atari.st:

I have logged onto CompuServe a couple of times lately, and they
are all excited about a bit-map graphics standard they have
developed called 'GIF' (Pronounced 'Jif') The acronym stands for
'Graphics Interchange Format' (surprisingly enough). GIF allows
for full-color bitmaps, up to 16,000 bits square. Color values
are given in terms of standard RGB values.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If to "man" a phone implies handing
SF Bay Area (1982-) |it over to a person of the male
Chicago (1964-1982) |gender, then to "monitor" it
|suggests handing it over to a
evan.kir...@gmail.com |lizard.
| Rohan Oberoi
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Andrew B <bul...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 25/05/2013 16:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> It has to do with the slander about "innate American insistence."
>> Americans generally try to pronounce borrowed words as in the source
>> language (mutatis mutandis), while Britons apparently believe that
>> anything written with the roman alphabet should be pronounced as if it
>> were ancestral English, i.e. with the Great Vowel Shift and English
>> stress patterns.
>
> I don't really understand why certain Americans on these groups are
> apparently so wedded to this theory, nor what they think it proves if
> BrEng follows the source language 17% of the time while USEng does so
> 19% of the time. (Numbers made up, but I bet the difference isn't far
> off).

I suspect that if you limit the question to words borrowed after AmE
and BrE split (and so aren't part of AmE inherited from BrE speakers
who had already gotten their hands on them), you'd find a considerably
larger difference.

> Presumably whatever it does prove, the apparent British tendency to
> try to *spell* certain borrowed words as in the source language, while
> Americans apparently believe that anything spoken in the English
> language should be spelt as if it were ancestral English
> (e.g. "manoeuvre/maneuver"), proves precisely the opposite.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |A specification which calls for
SF Bay Area (1982-) |network-wide use of encryption, but
Chicago (1964-1982) |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle
|key distribution, is a useless
evan.kir...@gmail.com |farce.
| Henry Spencer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[annily]

Not necessarily. I persist with the hard G pronunciation because it is
what most people use today. The original intention of the coiner doesn't
come into it.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On May 26, 12:23 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Andrew B <bull...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On 25/05/2013 16:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> >> It has to do with the slander about "innate American insistence."
> >> Americans generally try to pronounce borrowed words as in the source
> >> language (mutatis mutandis), while Britons apparently believe that
> >> anything written with the roman alphabet should be pronounced as if it
> >> were ancestral English, i.e. with the Great Vowel Shift and English
> >> stress patterns.
>
> > I don't really understand why certain Americans on these groups are
> > apparently so wedded to this theory, nor what they think it proves if
> > BrEng follows the source language 17% of the time while USEng does so
> > 19% of the time. (Numbers made up, but I bet the difference isn't far
> > off).
>
> I suspect that if you limit the question to words borrowed after AmE
> and BrE split (and so aren't part of AmE inherited from BrE speakers
> who had already gotten their hands on them), you'd find a considerably
> larger difference.

You pushed me too far: I went back to the list I posted in 2011. It
was originally taken from a small monograph dealing with post-ME
(mostly from 18th century on) borrowings, so it should give a
different profile from the above. I looked at what OED has for entries
that specify both "Brit" and "US" pronunciations, which I think
reflect the recent work of our friends Upton and Kretzschmar. Of 41
items in that category, 24 have categorical Brit=UK agreement on
stress position (final vs non-final). 12 others show partial
agreement, with one or other dialect allowing both stress patterns.
That leaves just five items with categorical disagreement, and they
are all Brit non-final/ US final (ballet, massage (n,v), pâté,
premiere, rapprochement).

The overall totals in this group are:

Brit totals: F 16 NF 20 mixed 5
US totals: F 22 NF 12 mixed 7

So this small sample tends to confirm a slightly greater tendency in
BrEng to shift stress back to non-final position. But hardly enough to
justify further descent into schoolboy dialect-fights on this thread.
(Not including you in that, Evan. :-))

[CDB]

On 25/05/2013 12:41 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes

>> If the G in GIF can be spoken as J so can the G in JPEG. ;-)

> No really ;o).

> There's a sort of rule where C or G followed by an E or and I tend to be
> soft* (with a vast number of exceptions), and when followed by an A or
> an O are almost always hard**. However, I can't immediately think of any
> words where a final G is soft.
> *Presumably those with Latin/Italian/Spanish origins.
> **"Gaol" is one which confuses me. I always see it as "goal". I was
> brought up on a diet of Desperate Dan, in the Dandy comic, and he
> frequently got put in "jail" (well, he does live in the Wild West).

I think the rule is that "g" is hard by default, [g], but pronounced
[dZ] in naturalised words if there is a following front vowel. There
wouldn't be any reason to pronounce a final "g" that way, since there is
no following vowel. The exceptions Mike mentioned don't count, as he
says, because they are abbreviations of words which have a front vowel
after the "g".

> However, as the G in GIF stands for a hard G, there's absolutely no
> justification for deciding to pronounce it JIF. I strongly suspect that
> the decision was taken by those who had little what of this new-fangled
> GIF was. If it was a positive decision by the inventors of GIFs, then it
> was the wrong decision.

Fridge it, then.

[Odysseus]

In article
<b6e512ed-f668-412d...@wg15g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> On May 24, 7:12 pm, Odysseus <odysseus1479...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:

<snip>
> >
> > [...] Then there are such examples as "giddy", "gills", "gimlet",
> > "git", and "gizmo" that might be followed: exceptions to I's usual
> > G-softening are not uncommon.

> Not to mention "give" (#97 by frequency, according to Wiki).

And, with "gift", providing an environment closer to that in GIF than I
managed to get with any of my examples.

--
Odysseus

[R H Draney]

Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>
>The pronunciation is first mentioned on Usenet in 1987, in
>comp.sys.atari.st:
>
> I have logged onto CompuServe a couple of times lately, and they
> are all excited about a bit-map graphics standard they have
> developed called 'GIF' (Pronounced 'Jif') The acronym stands for
> 'Graphics Interchange Format' (surprisingly enough). GIF allows
> for full-color bitmaps, up to 16,000 bits square. Color values
> are given in terms of standard RGB values.

Maybe the soft pronunciation should only refer to pictures of giraffes....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 25, 10:22 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

= US, presumably

> stress position (final vs non-final). 12 others show partial
> agreement, with one or other dialect allowing both stress patterns.
> That leaves just five items with categorical disagreement, and they
> are all Brit non-final/ US final (ballet, massage (n,v), pâté,
> premiere, rapprochement).
>
> The overall totals in this group are:
>
> Brit totals: F  16  NF 20  mixed 5
> US totals:  F  22  NF 12  mixed 7
>
> So this small sample tends to confirm a slightly greater tendency in
> BrEng to shift stress back to non-final position. But hardly enough to
> justify further descent into schoolboy dialect-fights on this thread.
> (Not including you in that, Evan. :-))

OED is hardly a reliable source for US pronounciations, unless Bill
Kretschmar has done the entire work while all the other revisors have
only gotten from L or M to S.

And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

oops. indeed.

>
> > stress position (final vs non-final). 12 others show partial
> > agreement, with one or other dialect allowing both stress patterns.
> > That leaves just five items with categorical disagreement, and they
> > are all Brit non-final/ US final (ballet, massage (n,v), pâté,
> > premiere, rapprochement).
>
> > The overall totals in this group are:
>
> > Brit totals: F  16  NF 20  mixed 5
> > US totals:  F  22  NF 12  mixed 7
>
> > So this small sample tends to confirm a slightly greater tendency in
> > BrEng to shift stress back to non-final position. But hardly enough to
> > justify further descent into schoolboy dialect-fights on this thread.
> > (Not including you in that, Evan. :-))
>
> OED is hardly a reliable source for US pronounciations, unless Bill
> Kretschmar has done the entire work while all the other revisors have
> only gotten from L or M to S.

As I mentioned, this is a sub-list from my original list, namely just
those where OED gives both Brit and US pronunciations. This now
appears, as far as I can see, for all items in the M-R range where
recent full revision has taken place. But also for scattered items
elsewhere (see "ballet" in the above list). I have the feeling that
the Upton-Kretzschmar New Pronunciation Order has been applied both as
part of Full Revision and also to any other items that happened to
note a pondian pronunciation difference in earlier versions. If it's
not reliable enough for you, you'll have to wait until somebody else
does a comparison using different sources.

> And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?

Yes.

[Nick from England]

"Yusuf B Gursey" <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:00997c54-ff45-4180...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw

What's file format? Non-HTML? I just got told off for posting HTML! :D

BBC Breakfast just announced that it's JIF, but I won't 'ave it - JIF is fer
lemons and GIF (hard 'G') is fer moving pics of cats - "lots of cats"!

--
NfE

[Khobar@riffians.com Ahab the Arab]

"Nick from England" <paci...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:knsdh4$gje$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:00997c54-ff45-4180...@j7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
>> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw
>
> What's file format? Non-HTML? I just got told off for posting HTML! :D

GIF file format, infidel Nellie! ;)

--
Ahab the Arab (Fry's Turkish Delight)

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Just to follow up on the above, of the 41 words I was talking about,
just 8 were outside the M-R range, and all but one showed as having
been fully revised between 2008 and 2012. The one exception was
"lieutenant", which I think is correctly shown as having non-final
stress in both Brit and US.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 17:17:19 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> However, as the G in GIF stands for a hard G, there's absolutely no
>> justification for deciding to pronounce it JIF. I strongly suspect
>> that the decision was taken by those who had little what of this
>> new-fangled GIF was.
>
>You strongly suspect wrong.
>
>> If it was a positive decision by the inventors of GIFs,
>
>It was.
>
>> then it was the wrong decision.
>
>It was a transparent reference to the "Jif" brand of peanut butter
>and, in particular, to its slogan, "Choosy mothers choose Jif".
>
> According to Steve Wilhite, the creator of the GIF format, the
> intended pronunciation deliberately echoes the American peanut
> butter brand, Jif, and CompuServe employees would often say
> "Choosy developers choose GIF", spoofing this brand's television
> commercials.
>

Outside the US it was not a transparent reference to a brand of peanut
butter. As previously mentioned or implied, in the UK and some other
countries outside the US "Jif" would be a reference to a brand of lemon
juice or to a cleaning fluid.

Jif Lemon juice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jif_%28lemon_juice%29

Jif cleaning fluid is now named Cif (the C spoken as ss) in the UK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cif

....
The Cif product is sold under the names Jif, Vim, Viss and Handy
Andy, depending on which of the 51 countries it is sold in.
....
In 2001 the name in most of these countries was changed to Cif...
....
Despite this, many in the UK continue to call the product
Jif[citation needed]: particularly as 'Cif', spelt 'syph' (but
identically pronounced), is slang for syphilis...

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

And finally this: I don't know what you'd consider a really reliable
source on US pronunciation, but I checked the 41 items against the
online Merriam-Webster dictionary. Apart from one item that they
wouldn't show me unless I signed up for a Free Trial, there was 80%
agreement with what Upton-Kretzschmar say in OED, with respect to the
feature I was looking at (final vs non-final stress). Of the eight
items where they didn't agree, accepting M-W's version over OED's
would make US pronunciation more nativizing in six cases, and less
nativizing in two. So really no major difference.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Kenyon & Knott has been available for more than 50 years, It is
directly comparable with Jones(/Gimson/Wells, though contemporary
editions are what should be compared).

> > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> Yes.

Justification?

[Peter T. Daniels]

And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
ant?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Considering only stress is, well, irresponsible.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 26, 4:51 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> On Sat, 25 May 2013 17:17:19 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> However, as the G in GIF stands for a hard G, there's absolutely no
> >> justification for deciding to pronounce it JIF. I strongly suspect
> >> that the decision was taken by those who had little what of this
> >> new-fangled GIF was.
>
> >You strongly suspect wrong.
>
> >> If it was a positive decision by the inventors of GIFs,
>
> >It was.
>
> >> then it was the wrong decision.
>
> >It was a transparent reference to the "Jif" brand of peanut butter
> >and, in particular, to its slogan, "Choosy mothers choose Jif".
>
> >    According to Steve Wilhite, the creator of the GIF format, the
> >    intended pronunciation deliberately echoes the American peanut
> >    butter brand, Jif, and CompuServe employees would often say
> >    "Choosy developers choose GIF", spoofing this brand's television
> >    commercials.
>
> Outside the US it was not a transparent reference to a brand of peanut
> butter. As previously mentioned or implied, in the UK and some other
> countries outside the US "Jif" would be a reference to a brand of lemon
> juice or to a cleaning fluid.

All this time you've had me thinking you put peanut butter on
pancakes, but now it turns out you put lemon juice on pancakes?

The Original Pancake House chain (not to be confused with IHoP), which
originated in the US Midwest, makes a "Dutch apple pancake" which
stretches the term "pancake" even more than Chicago-style pizza
stretches the word "pizza": it is similarly baked(!) in a large flat
circular iron pan with straight-up walls, and is filled with apple pie-
like filling. The same item without the apples (it's called a Dutch
baby but is no smaller) is covered with powdered sugar and served with
many lemon wedges (and more powdered sugar) -- but it's not pancake-
like at all, being puffy sort of like a naan, probably with a much
greater proportion of egg than a normal pancake.

So, what is it that you call "pancakes" that you put lemon juice on?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"Basic pancakes with sugar and lemon"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/basicpancakeswithsuga_66226

Not to be confused with "Fluffy American pancakes"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/fluffyamericanpancak_74828

[John Briggs]

On 25/05/2013 01:18, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 10:42:25 +0930, annily <ann...@annily.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24.05.13 10:13, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>>>> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/battle-over-gif-pronunciation-erupts/?hpw
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting quote from the comments:
>>>
>>> "It's pretty funny that all of you are apparently too young to remember
>>> the GIF/JIF pronunciation switch in the early 90s."
>>>
>>> I'm not young but I don't remember that. I'd only ever heard it with a
>>> hard G before this latest revelation. Perhaps because I wasn't online
>>> much in the early '90s.
>>
>> I was involved with computers long before the GIF format was invented
>> and have only ever heard it with the hard-g sound (as in "go" or "beg").
>>
>> It is possible that if I had overheard someone using the j sound,
>> without recognising what they were talking about, I would have assumed
>> that they were speaking of a different format: "JIF" or "JIFF", perhaps.
>>
>> The OED added an entry for GIF in June 2006. That gives both the j and
>> hard-g sounds in both BrE and AmE. It gives the j version first in BrE
>> and the hard-g version first in AmE.
>>
>> It seems natural to me that as the G in GIF is the initial letter of
>> Graphic that it should be pronounced the same as in that word. To me,
>> there is nothing about the following letters, "IF", that would encourage
>> a change from hard-g to j.
>
> The "i" makes it easy to go either way:
>
> giant gibbon
> gibber gibbous
> gibberish Gibson
> gibbet giddy
> Gibraltar Gideon
> gigantic gift
> gigolo gig
> gill giggle
> gin Gilbert
> ginger gild
> gingivitis gill
> ginsing gimlet
> giraffe gimmick
> gist gimp
> ginkgo
> gird
> girder
> girdle
> girl
> girth
> git
> give
> gizmo
> gizzard

I pronounce "gibbous" with a soft "g".
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 25/05/2013 16:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On May 25, 10:43 am, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <97ee54ac-21c4-488d-88d1-304f6a9aa...@cl9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> writes

>>> On May 25, 3:34 am, Ian Jackson
>>> <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <mwrjx67e....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
>>>> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes
>>
>>>>> The first discussion I see on Usenet is from September, 1991, on
>>>>> alt.folklore.computers, where it was noted that there was an official
>>>>> pronunciation.
>>
>>>>>> GIF - "jiff" / "giff" (as in "giraffe" vs. "garbage")
>>
>>>>> "jiff" - this is the official pronunciation (yes, they actually
>>>>> have one!). I still hear "giff" from a few people, I even heard
>>>>> "gief" from one deranged person ("eye" in the middle).
>>
>>>>> It was a shibboleth back then here in Silicon Valley, in my
>>>>> experience. Using the hard /g/ marked you as a newbie. Probably
>>>>> precisely *because* it meant that you had guessed the pronunciation
>>>> >from reading it rather than learning it by hearing somebody in the
>>>>> know say it.
>>
>>>> I think that this is an example of the innate American insistence of
>>>> pronouncing new words (or, more often, existing words which are new to
>>>> them) by analogy to similar words that they are familiar with -
>>>> sometimes with rather bizarre results.
>>
>>> Excuse me? Do you say GA-ridge or ga-RAZH ?
>>
>> GA-ridge (a slovenly apology for GA-rage).
>>

>>> Do you say MILL-un or mi-LAHN ?
>>
>> As in Milan, Italy? I say mill-ANN.
>

> Gielgud in that strange film of The Tempest says MILL-un, and I have
> also heard it from historians.

The historians are probably living in the past... Gielgud would have
pronounced it that way because Shakespeare did, not because he (Gielgud)
did, or we do.
--
John Briggs

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 26, 10:17 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

Yup, that looks just like a Dutch baby, if Dutch babys didn't have
walls and weren't served flat on a very large plate.

> Not to be confused with "Fluffy American pancakes"http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/fluffyamericanpancak_74828

Yup, just right -- except for the butter and syrup being optional.
Plain dry pancakes??

Pancake restaurants offer a variety of syrups besides (probably
imitation) maple, in fruit flavors, but one wouldn't normally find
those at home.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Like the anomalous "When the night [wajnd] howls" in Ruddigore?

Shakespeare is not otherwise pronounced as it would have been 400
years ago, except for the occasional stunt, since it would be largely
incomprehensible.

And mill-ANN for mill-AHN is also disrespectful of the original. (Just
as is the British pronunciation of "Barack" with the same vowel
substitituion.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

In an interview this weekend

http://www.studio360.org/2013/may/24/alan-cumming/

the Scottsh actor Alan Cumming, who is currently giving a solo
performance of the complete *Macbeth* on Broadway, notes that he has
now played Hamlet, Romeo, and Macbeth using his own voice, and he
finds that his native Scottish "guttural sound and diphthongs" fit the
language especially well.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-05-25, Ian Jackson wrote:

> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> writes

>>Do you say MILL-un or mi-LAHN ?
>>
> As in Milan, Italy? I say mill-ANN.

That place has another syllable in Italy anyhow.

(The Milan Brothers tobacco shop in Roanoke was pronounced /ˈmaɪlən/
by the Italian-American family who owned & run it. I assume that was
an anglicized form of the original name.)


--
Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our
way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea
that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for.
--- Hunter S Thompson

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-05-26, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> And finally this: I don't know what you'd consider a really reliable
> source on US pronunciation,

I think the only authority he would recognize would be one that agrees
entirely with his idiolect.


--
Carrots continue to suffer from the jibes of people who like to
dispense what H. W. Fowler called "worn-out humor."
--- Joy of Cooking 1975

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Well, I know that trying to fit evidence to satisfy your ever-shifting
demands is a mug's game. But are you really suggesting that nothing
since the 1940s can be relied on to accurately represent AmEng
pronunciation?

> > > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> > Yes.
>
> Justification?

Why should it need justification?
If you think that comparing vowel quality or some other aspect of
nativization would yield different results, you're at liberty to do
your own study.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Just who do you imagine I am "responsible" to?

It won't hurt to repeat what I just posted elsewhere: If you feel that
features other than stress will paint a completely different picture,
nothing is stopping you from collecting and presenting data to prove
it. Nothing, that is, but your habits of a lifetime.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
> ant?

Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??

Yes, AmEng scores one point for this word -- which, as you well know,
is one of a kind.

I was attempting to put the discussion on the level of generalities
about whole groups of words (which is the level on which the insults
were being hurled), rather than endless dickering about individual
cases. But apparently it's futile.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 26, 4:58 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
> > ant?
>
> Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??

Probably. "Long u" has an optional dialectal prepalatal. I'd expect it
from the same folks who say "tyune"

> Yes, AmEng scores one point for this word -- which, as you well know,
> is one of a kind.
>
> I was attempting to put the discussion on the level of generalities
> about whole groups of words (which is the level on which the insults
> were being hurled), rather than endless dickering about individual
> cases. But apparently it's futile.

And you just happened to choose that unique example for mention.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You asked for something that was comparable to something else. I do
not know of later editions of that one, or of other pronouncing
dictionaries other than the keys in dictionaries, which are
descriptive rather than prescriptive.

> > > > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> > > Yes.
>
> > Justification?
>
> Why should it need justification?
> If you think that comparing vowel quality or some other aspect of
> nativization would yield different results, you're at liberty to do
> your own study.

You're the one who seems obsessed with denying the obvious
differences.

Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.

[Peter T. Daniels]

To the aue'ers you are writing to.

You are giving a false impression of the differences.

> It won't hurt to repeat what I just posted elsewhere: If you feel that
> features other than stress will paint a completely different picture,
> nothing is stopping you from collecting and presenting data to prove
> it. Nothing, that is, but your habits of a lifetime.

Well, if I were a professor paid to do research, I just might do that.
I do not, however, have the leisure.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On May 27, 9:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 26, 4:58 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
> > > ant?
>
> > Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??
>
> Probably. "Long u" has an optional dialectal prepalatal. I'd expect it
> from the same folks who say "tyune"

...which is not many Americans.

>
> > Yes, AmEng scores one point for this word -- which, as you well know,
> > is one of a kind.
>
> > I was attempting to put the discussion on the level of generalities
> > about whole groups of words (which is the level on which the insults
> > were being hurled), rather than endless dickering about individual
> > cases. But apparently it's futile.
>
> And you just happened to choose that unique example for mention.

For reasons explained. So you're saying if I had happened to mention
any other individual words, you would have given them equal quibbling
time?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

What's that last relative clause attached to? Isn't descriptive what
we're looking for?

>
> > > > > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> > > > Yes.
>
> > > Justification?
>
> > Why should it need justification?
> > If you think that comparing vowel quality or some other aspect of
> > nativization would yield different results, you're at liberty to do
> > your own study.
>
> You're the one who seems obsessed with denying the obvious
> differences.

This is an illusion caused by your obsessive interest in anecdotal
differences which happen to catch your attention. What I am trying to
do is find out whether these are part of a general pattern. You seem
to feel this does not require proof.

> Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
> than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.

Your point?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, I am not. My small findings are clearly described for what they
are, unlike your insulting generalizations. And you have no basis
whatsoever for describing the alleged impression as false.

>
> > It won't hurt to repeat what I just posted elsewhere: If you feel that
> > features other than stress will paint a completely different picture,
> > nothing is stopping you from collecting and presenting data to prove
> > it. Nothing, that is, but your habits of a lifetime.
>
> Well, if I were a professor paid to do research, I just might do that.
> I do not, however, have the leisure.

This bullshit excuse has surely worn out by now.

Just for the record, I'm not a professor, and this research is not
part of my job description. You could use some of the leisure time you
seem to find to pursue grudges and vendettas for the occasional small
research project that would contribute some new data to our
discussions.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:58:03 -0700 (PDT),
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in
<news:b018cb46-e624-4371...@kt20g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:

> On May 27, 1:19�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant
>> or l(y)oo-TEN- ant?

> Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??

I don't say [lju-], but I definitely palalize the /l/.

[...]

Brian

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/05/13 4:58 AM, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
>> ant?
>
> Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??
>
> Yes, AmEng scores one point for this word -- which, as you well know,
> is one of a kind.

I fail to see how "loo-TEN-ant" is any closer to "lyuh-tn�" than the BrE
version. So, for historical reasons BrE has an intrusive f, but the
vowel is not further away than the AmE one, and the rest of the word is
totally unlike anything English.

--
Robert Bannister

[John Briggs]

Among the things that have passed you by are the Globe production of
"Romeo and Juliet", David Crystal's book about the experiment, and the
Brirish Library CD of Shakespeare in Original Pronunciation.

Oh, and you're wrong, of course.
--
John Briggs

[Peter T. Daniels]

I would have made the same point, that the vowel differences are as
important as the stress differences, but you wouldn't have been able
to quibble "one of a kind."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Is it? If you have two general descriptive dictionaries that record
all known pronunciation variants, there will probably be immense
overlap. But if you take an "authority," like Jones, you get exactly
one pronunciation, the "preferred" one, and the same for K&K.

> > > > > > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> > > > > Yes.
>
> > > > Justification?
>
> > > Why should it need justification?
> > > If you think that comparing vowel quality or some other aspect of
> > > nativization would yield different results, you're at liberty to do
> > > your own study.
>
> > You're the one who seems obsessed with denying the obvious
> > differences.
>
> This is an illusion caused by your obsessive interest in anecdotal
> differences which happen to catch your attention. What I am trying to
> do is find out whether these are part of a general pattern. You seem
> to feel this does not require proof.
>
> > Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
> > than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.
>
> Your point?

Same stress, different vowel.

The bizarre claim that only stress is important is yours, not mine.

[Peter T. Daniels]

??? Did you overlook "the occasional stunt"?

(Howcome *Shakespeare in Love* wasn't done in the original
Elizabethan?)

(One CD doesn't contain even a single play.)

> Oh, and you're wrong, of course.

?

[Nathan Sanders]

In article
<f62c98a4-18df-4f3c...@gb2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> If you have two general descriptive dictionaries that record
> all known pronunciation variants, there will probably be immense
> overlap. But if you take an "authority," like Jones, you get exactly
> one pronunciation, the "preferred" one, and the same for K&K.

What is the "exactly one" pronunciation of "either"? Or "economics",
"data", "Caribbean", "kilometer", "bouquet", "Iraq", "niche", "ours",
"err", "harass", "pianist", "Nevada", "Uranus", "without", "pecan",
"amateur", "route", "via", etc.?

> > > Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
> > > than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.
> >
> > Your point?
>
> Same stress, different vowel.
>
> The bizarre claim that only stress is important is yours, not mine.

And yet in this case, the vowel difference goes in exactly the
opposite direction you have been claiming about UK versus US English:
the UK pronunciation of the -ine suffix you report above is closer to
the original French than the US pronunciation is.

Nathan

--
Department of Linguistics
Swarthmore College
http://sanders.phonologist.org/

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:21:37 -0400, Nathan Sanders
<san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<news:sanders-47305C...@news.eternal-september.org>
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:

> In article
> <f62c98a4-18df-4f3c...@gb2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

[...]

>>> Your point?

>> Same stress, different vowel.

>> The bizarre claim that only stress is important is yours,
>> not mine.

> And yet in this case, the vowel difference goes in exactly
> the opposite direction you have been claiming about UK
> versus US English: the UK pronunciation of the -ine
> suffix you report above is closer to the original French
> than the US pronunciation is.

Who cares? It's a nit that desperately wants picking! At
least as long as it's in the field on the *other* side of
the fence.

Brian

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Perhaps they are, though I would say that much of the time the vowel
differences are driven by the stress differences. The vowel
differences might indeed have an interesting story to tell, if only
somebody would look at them more than one at a time.

[John Briggs]

>> British Library CD of Shakespeare in Original Pronunciation.

>
> ??? Did you overlook "the occasional stunt"?

And "Troilus and Cressida" the following year.

> (Howcome *Shakespeare in Love* wasn't done in the original
> Elizabethan?)

"Shakespeare in Love" is fiction - and anachronism is the whole point of
the film - or did that pass you by as well?

> (One CD doesn't contain even a single play.)

If you want a single play, "Romeo and Juliet" is available on Blu-Ray
[sic] - the subtitles are optional.

>> Oh, and you're wrong, of course.
>
> ?

About it being "largely incomprehensible". It's the only way many of the
puns actually work.
--
John Briggs

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

This is just not true. E.g. for "garage" K&K give three
pronunciations, as does Jones XVII (2006). Jones V (1940) generally
gives one pronunciation first, which may be followed by more in square
brackets, explained as "less frequent".

When I have compared big dictionaries (e.g. OED and M-W) there is
quite a bit of overlap, but not so much as to keep clear differences
from emerging.

Anyhow, this whole argument is supposed to be about AmE vs BrE _as
they are_, not what some prescriptivist thinks (or thought) they ought
to be.

>
> > > > > > > And you consider only stress in this list, but not vowels?
>
> > > > > > Yes.
>
> > > > > Justification?
>
> > > > Why should it need justification?
> > > > If you think that comparing vowel quality or some other aspect of
> > > > nativization would yield different results, you're at liberty to do
> > > > your own study.
>
> > > You're the one who seems obsessed with denying the obvious
> > > differences.
>
> > This is an illusion caused by your obsessive interest in anecdotal
> > differences which happen to catch your attention. What I am trying to
> > do is find out whether these are part of a general pattern. You seem
> > to feel this does not require proof.
>
> > > Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
> > > than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.
>
> > Your point?
>
> Same stress, different vowel.

Yes, and does that tell us anything that anyone ever doubted?

> The bizarre claim that only stress is important is yours, not mine.

It certainly would be a bizarre claim. I don't know where you got it
from.

[Peter T. Daniels]

From your postings. You list nothing but stress differences.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 27, 12:21 am, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article
> <f62c98a4-18df-4f3c-b912-8f95e77dc...@gb2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

>  "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > If you have two general descriptive dictionaries that record
> > all known pronunciation variants, there will probably be immense
> > overlap. But if you take an "authority," like Jones, you get exactly
> > one pronunciation, the "preferred" one, and the same for K&K.
>
> What is the "exactly one" pronunciation of "either"?  Or "economics",
> "data", "Caribbean", "kilometer", "bouquet", "Iraq", "niche", "ours",
> "err", "harass", "pianist", "Nevada", "Uranus", "without", "pecan",
> "amateur", "route", "via", etc.?

Ha ha, very funny. The list of items with "free variation" is
minuscule and you have probably exhausted it. You also cheat by
including general regional differences in this list.

And I don't know what two pronunciations of "bouquet" there might be.
Or "without." Or "amateur."

> > > > Why just Friday on the BBC they were talking about "EYE-o-deen" rather
> > > > than EYE-o-dine. Same stress, different vowel.
>
> > > Your point?
>
> > Same stress, different vowel.
>
> > The bizarre claim that only stress is important is yours, not mine.
>
> And yet in this case, the vowel difference goes in exactly the
> opposite direction you have been claiming about UK versus US English:
> the UK pronunciation of the -ine suffix you report above is closer to
> the original French than the US pronunciation is.

"All grammars leak." (I doubt you've ever read Sapir, but perhaps
you've heard of him.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

At the expense, perhaps, of general comprehension?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Have a look at *Stress in the Speech Stream: The Rhythm of Spoken
English*, by Wayne B. Dickerson (U of IL Press, 1989). It's an EFL
textbook for adult learners who can read English fluently but have
basically no idea of how to pronounce it (aimed at graduate students
and such in the US). It records systematic variation, noting that both
alternatives are correct but one is used in AmE, the other in BrE.

Oh, wait, you can't -- it's long out of print, and because it's a
textbook it didn't get into many libraries and because it was
published in looseleaf form there are almost no used copies available.

The author kindly sold me the CD-ROM version for $20.

Unfortunately he never wrote up his data in the form of a linguistic
article, so the information it contains would have to be gleaned piece
by piece.

[Daniel James]

In article <c864q819hei5id9rd...@4ax.com>, Peter
Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> "Basic pancakes with sugar and lemon"
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/basicpancakeswithsuga_66226

Yes, those are "English" pancakes -- very like French cr�pes.

> Not to be confused with "Fluffy American pancakes"
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/fluffyamericanpancak_74828

Those look like "scotch pancakes" (or "pancakes", in Scotland) which we
called "drop scones" WIWAL. I don't know what's "American" about them
-- unless it's the suggestion that they be served with maple syrup.

Cheers,
Daniel.

[John Briggs]

It depends what you mean by "general". Americans might be puzzled, but
British audiences would have little problem. How do you manage on 19
September? [International Talk Like a Pirate Day]
--
John Briggs

[Peter T. Daniels]

On May 27, 10:00 am, Daniel James <dan...@me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <c864q819hei5id9rdgcetm5ad00k0j4...@4ax.com>, Peter

How about the fact that that's what "pancakes" refers to in America?

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Daniel James <dan...@me.invalid> writes:

> In article <c864q819hei5id9rd...@4ax.com>, Peter
> Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> "Basic pancakes with sugar and lemon"
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/basicpancakeswithsuga_66226
>

> Yes, those are "English" pancakes -- very like French crępes.

>
>> Not to be confused with "Fluffy American pancakes"
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/fluffyamericanpancak_74828
>
> Those look like "scotch pancakes" (or "pancakes", in Scotland) which
> we called "drop scones" WIWAL. I don't know what's "American" about
> them -- unless it's the suggestion that they be served with maple
> syrup.

Scottish pancakes appear to be the origin of the American version and
recipes I see are essentially identical (flour, salt, sugar, milk,
egg, butter, and baking powder). Size-wise, the Scottish variety
would be called "silver dollar pancakes" in the US. (Normal American
pancakes are larger, typically the size of a small plate.)

So my guess is that the author of the BBC recipe was familiar with
American pancakes but didn't realize that there was a name for them in
the UK.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |English is about as pure as a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |cribhouse whore. We don't just
Chicago (1964-1982) |borrow words; on occasion, English
|has pursued other languages down
evan.kir...@gmail.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious
|and rifle their pockets for new
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |vocabulary.
| --James D. Nicoll

[Nathan Sanders]

In article
<8cd43cc3-6dfe-40a1...@l5g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On May 27, 12:21 am, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > In article
> > <f62c98a4-18df-4f3c-b912-8f95e77dc...@gb2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >  "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > > If you have two general descriptive dictionaries that record
> > > all known pronunciation variants, there will probably be immense
> > > overlap. But if you take an "authority," like Jones, you get exactly
> > > one pronunciation, the "preferred" one, and the same for K&K.
> >
> > What is the "exactly one" pronunciation of "either"?  Or "economics",
> > "data", "Caribbean", "kilometer", "bouquet", "Iraq", "niche", "ours",
> > "err", "harass", "pianist", "Nevada", "Uranus", "without", "pecan",
> > "amateur", "route", "via", etc.?
>

> The list of items with "free variation" is minuscule

But they exist. Therefore, "if you take an 'authority,' like Jones,
you" do not in fact "get exactly one pronunciation". Sometimes, you
get multiple pronunciations (in those cases where the "authority"
decides there is not a single "preferred" pronunciation).

> And I don't know what two pronunciations of "bouquet" there might be.

/u/ versus /o/

> Or "without."

/T/ versus /D/

> Or "amateur."

/t/ versus /tS/

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 14:52:00 -0400, Nathan Sanders
<san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<news:sanders-0FD932...@news.eternal-september.org>
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.english.usage:

> In article
> <8cd43cc3-6dfe-40a1...@l5g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

[...]

>> And I don't know what two pronunciations of "bouquet" there might be.

> /u/ versus /o/

>> Or "without."

> /T/ versus /D/

>> Or "amateur."

> /t/ versus /tS/

This one's at least four-way: the /t/ case splits into
/-tǝr/, /-,tUr/, and /-,t^jUr/, and perhaps /-,tǝr/.

Brian

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

That's what I have been looking at. Nowhere have I claimed that only
stress differences exist, or that only stress is important.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-05-26, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> On May 27, 9:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On May 26, 4:58 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
>> > > ant?
>>
>> > Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??
>>
>> Probably. "Long u" has an optional dialectal prepalatal. I'd expect it
>> from the same folks who say "tyune"
>
> ...which is not many Americans.

I suspect more Americans say "tyune" ("dyune", &c.) than "lyootenant",
probably because /lj/+vowel is a little trickier to articulate (&/or a
rarer sequence) than /tj/+vowel (&c).

I have come across the plausible explanation that the BrE
pronunciation is actually closer than the AmE one to the way
"lieutenant" was pronounced in French at some point in the past,
although the AmE one is closer to the current French one.


--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
--- Hunter S Thompson

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-05-27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Have a look at *Stress in the Speech Stream: The Rhythm of Spoken
> English*, by Wayne B. Dickerson (U of IL Press, 1989). It's an EFL
> textbook for adult learners who can read English fluently but have
> basically no idea of how to pronounce it (aimed at graduate students
> and such in the US). It records systematic variation, noting that both
> alternatives are correct but one is used in AmE, the other in BrE.
>
> Oh, wait, you can't -- it's long out of print, and because it's a
> textbook it didn't get into many libraries and because it was
> published in looseleaf form there are almost no used copies available.
>
> The author kindly sold me the CD-ROM version for $20.

You could ask the author for permission to duplicate it, since it's
out of print.


--
I used to be better at logic problems, before I just dumped
them all into TeX and let Knuth pick out the survivors.
-- plorkwort

[Adam Funk]

Small research projects might involve admitting his hypotheses were
wrong!


--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On May 28, 8:58 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2013-05-26, benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On May 27, 9:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On May 26, 4:58 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >> > On May 27, 1:19 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> > > And which is closer to the source language, lef-TEN-ant or l(y)oo-TEN-
> >> > > ant?
>
> >> > Do any Americans actually say "lyoo.."??
>
> >> Probably. "Long u" has an optional dialectal prepalatal. I'd expect it
> >> from the same folks who say "tyune"
>
> > ...which is not many Americans.
>
> I suspect more Americans say "tyune" ("dyune", &c.) than "lyootenant",
> probably because /lj/+vowel is a little trickier to articulate (&/or a
> rarer sequence) than /tj/+vowel (&c).

I share your suspection. ISTR that /lj/ was being lost even in RP,
whereas no Brits (outside of Norfolk?) say "toon" and "doon".

> I have come across the plausible explanation that the BrE
> pronunciation is actually closer than the AmE one to the way
> "lieutenant" was pronounced in French at some point in the past,
> although the AmE one is closer to the current French one.

OED cites a "rare Old French form luef for lieu" as part of its
suggested explanation for the /f/. Spellings with -f- go back as far
as the 14th century. AmE and BrE seem to have gradually settled on
different pronunciations during the 18th-19th century.