Historic pronunciation of Portuguese

[Ruud Harmsen]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/56009755/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-da-Lingua-Portuguesa
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54593735/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-da-Lingua-Portuguesa
etc.
HIST�RIA DA L�NGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER -- Tradu��o de Celso
Cunha -- Martins Fontes

This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
(in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
discover it before???

I discovered it today via
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2430945 which I found
using
http://search.babylon.com/?s=web&babsrc=home&rlz=0&q=portuguese+pronunciation&start=10
after seeing that someone used that search engine (hitherto unknown to
me) to arrive at my page http://rudhar.com/gold/fr/watevalu.stm .

"Nada � por acaso"
"Toeval bestaat niet"

[António Marques]

Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/56009755/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-da-Lingua-Portuguesa
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/54593735/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-da-Lingua-Portuguesa
> etc.

> HISTÓRIA DA LÍNGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER -- Tradução de Celso

> Cunha -- Martins Fontes
>
> This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
> existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
> (in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
> discover it before???

Because you are always distraído. Ekkehard mentioned it at least once.
I don't have it, but I do have an abridged translation. I can't say I find
it awesome, but afaicr it doesn't contain errors.

> I discovered it today via
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2430945 which I found
> using
> http://search.babylon.com/?s=web&babsrc=home&rlz=0&q=portuguese+pronunciation&start=10
> after seeing that someone used that search engine (hitherto unknown to
> me) to arrive at my page http://rudhar.com/gold/fr/watevalu.stm .
>

> "Nada é por acaso"
> "Toeval bestaat niet"

The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.
--
Sent from one of my newsreaders

[pauljk]

"António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
news:kdfkff$d4f$4...@dont-email.me...

Not many languages have their own single domestic word for
serendipity. Some languages have long descriptive approximations
of it, such as Russian "интуитивная прозорливость" (intuitive insight?).
German has "Spürsinn".

pjk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jan 19, 9:23 pm, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:

> >http://www.scribd.com/doc/56009755/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-d...
> >http://www.scribd.com/doc/54593735/Portugues-Paul-Teyssier-Historia-d...

> > etc.
> > HISTÓRIA DA LÍNGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER -- Tradução de Celso
> > Cunha -- Martins Fontes
>
> > This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
> > existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
> > (in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
> > discover it before???
>
> Because you are always distraído. Ekkehard mentioned it at least once.
> I don't have it, but I do have an abridged translation. I can't say I find
> it awesome, but afaicr it doesn't contain errors.
>
> > I discovered it today via
> >http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2430945which I found
> > using

> >http://search.babylon.com/?s=web&babsrc=home&rlz=0&q=portuguese+pronu...

> > after seeing that someone used that search engine (hitherto unknown to
> > me) to arrive at my pagehttp://rudhar.com/gold/fr/watevalu.stm.
>
> > "Nada é por acaso"
> > "Toeval bestaat niet"
>
> The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.

seren-

The first name the West knew for Ceylon / Sri Lanka was Serendip.

[Ruud Harmsen]

>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> HIST�RIA DA L�NGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER
>>

>> This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
>> existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
>> (in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
>> discover it before???

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:23:43 +0000 (UTC): Ant�nio Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:
>Because you are always distra�do.

I am. Now too, doing bookkeeping, website privacy issues, and historic
Portuguese phonetics all at the same time.

>Ekkehard mentioned it at least once.

Does Google know? Yes, it does, 2005 and 2006:
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=PAUL+TEYSSIER+group%3Asci.lang&qt_s=Search+Groups

>I don't have it, but I do have an abridged translation. I can't say I find
>it awesome, but afaicr it doesn't contain errors.

It reconstructs when certain changes took place, using a source I
didn't know about either: Lu�s Ant�nio Verney, "Verdadeiro M�todo de
Estudar, 1746. http://purl.pt/118/2/ .

The local (well, 10 km) University Library has both the French and the
Portuguese version of Teyssier's book, so later this week (yes, this
week, today is primeira feira, n�o �?) I think I'll go read it there.

>The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.

Seren[...].

[Trond Engen]

pauljk:

> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
> news:kdfkff$d4f$4...@dont-email.me...
>

>> The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.
>
> Not many languages have their own single domestic word for
> serendipity. Some languages have long descriptive approximations
> of it, such as Russian "интуитивная прозорливость" (intuitive insight?).
> German has "Spürsinn".

When that film came, all and sundry, at least around here, started
saying that 'serendipity' was such a good word in English and impossible
to translate. I think that's what the marketing material told. It's
wrong. Norwegian has the perfectly everyday word "lykketreff".

--
Trond Engen

[pauljk]

"Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
news:kdiuih$tum$1...@dont-email.me...

Literary something like "result of luck" or "consequence of luck"?

I guess, since this artificial English word, as it was concocted
by Horace Walpole, doesn't have any old roots in English
etymological history, all languages that borrowed "serendipity"
were perfectly justified to do so. In such languages
"serendipity" is quite legitimate translation of English word
"serendipity" and just as 'good word' as it is in English. :-)

pjk

[Trond Engen]

pauljk:

> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> news:kdiuih$tum$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>> pauljk:
>>
>>> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
>>> news:kdfkff$d4f$4...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.
>>>
>>> Not many languages have their own single domestic word for
>>> serendipity. Some languages have long descriptive approximations
>>> of it, such as Russian "интуитивная прозорливость" (intuitive
>>> insight?). German has "Spürsinn".
>>
>> When that film came, all and sundry, at least around here, started
>> saying that 'serendipity' was such a good word in English and
>> impossible to translate. I think that's what the marketing material
>> told. It's wrong. Norwegian has the perfectly everyday word
>> "lykketreff".
>
> Literary something like "result of luck" or "consequence of luck"?

"Lucky hit", maybe, as in shooting blindly into the forest and hitting a
deer or your mother-in-law, but the main meaning is the romantic
metaphor. Strangers meant for eachother or old friends who have lost
touch coming together after a train delay. You seeking shelter from the
rain in a bookstore in a foreign city and finding your great uncle's
memoirs. You get it.

> I guess, since this artificial English word, as it was concocted
> by Horace Walpole, doesn't have any old roots in English
> etymological history, all languages that borrowed "serendipity"
> were perfectly justified to do so. In such languages
> "serendipity" is quite legitimate translation of English word
> "serendipity" and just as 'good word' as it is in English. :-)

--
Trond Engen

[anal...@hotmail.com]

On Jan 21, 4:31 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
> pauljk:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Trond Engen" <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
> >news:kdiuih$tum$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >> pauljk:
>
> >>> "António Marques" <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote in message

> Trond Engen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This is one of the rare je ne sais quoi words/phrases English has that
is lacking in other European languages. The empire extracted its
price (in spite of the added vocabulary) and then there are Americans
and any charm English might have once possessed is now gone. In
America, word/pharse making is an industry and most fads hardly last
10 years. Consider the charming Angstgegner that seems to be entering
English to denote a dreaded sports adversary - although the more
pedestrian-souding and native "having someone's number" does have a
storied past.

[António Marques]

Romance languages have the problem that for some reason it doesn't
back-latinise well: serendipitas -> serendipidade, serendipité, there's
something odd about those. I think it's the -nd- too close to the -ita-,
*serendibilitas seems unremarkable to me.

[António Marques]

Ruud Harmsen wrote (20-01-2013 11:58):
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> HISTÓRIA DA LÍNGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER

>>>
>>> This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
>>> existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
>>> (in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
>>> discover it before???
>

> Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:23:43 +0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:
>> Because you are always distraído.

>
> I am. Now too, doing bookkeeping, website privacy issues, and historic
> Portuguese phonetics all at the same time.

Privacy issues? Care to share that with us?

>> Ekkehard mentioned it at least once.
>
> Does Google know? Yes, it does, 2005 and 2006:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=PAUL+TEYSSIER+group%3Asci.lang&qt_s=Search+Groups
>
>> I don't have it, but I do have an abridged translation. I can't say I find
>> it awesome, but afaicr it doesn't contain errors.
>
> It reconstructs when certain changes took place, using a source I

> didn't know about either: Luís António Verney, "Verdadeiro Método de

> Estudar, 1746. http://purl.pt/118/2/ .
>
> The local (well, 10 km)

? I have to drive 9.5 K(where's Paul? will he make an appearance if I call
him Pavel?)m to my company office.

> University Library has both the French and the
> Portuguese version of Teyssier's book, so later this week (yes, this

> week, today is primeira feira, não é?)

I don't really know anyone other than me who considers the week as starting
on sunday.

[pauljk]

"Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message

news:kdj1qr$ee7$1...@dont-email.me...

> pauljk:
>> "Trond Engen" <tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in message
>> news:kdiuih$tum$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> pauljk:
>>>> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message
>>>> news:kdfkff$d4f$4...@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>> The Anglos even invented that somethingdipity word for it.
>>>>
>>>> Not many languages have their own single domestic word for
>>>> serendipity. Some languages have long descriptive approximations
>>>> of it, such as Russian "интуитивная прозорливость" (intuitive
>>>> insight?). German has "Spürsinn".
>>>
>>> When that film came, all and sundry, at least around here, started
>>> saying that 'serendipity' was such a good word in English and
>>> impossible to translate. I think that's what the marketing material
>>> told. It's wrong. Norwegian has the perfectly everyday word
>>> "lykketreff".
>>
>> Literary something like "result of luck" or "consequence of luck"?
>
> "Lucky hit",

Oh, good grief, of course "-treff" is a "hit". What was I thinking of?
Apart from about twelve Czech equivalents of various flavour there
is even one Germanic borrowing in the common Czech "n. trefa / v. trefit".
pjk

[pauljk]

<anal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f3a7823d-5e68-4523...@ho8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

I disagree! Have you read what I said above?
It's an *invented* word. Every language has the same right to it.
Everybody is equally entitled to *invent/borrow* an identical word
"serendipity" and claim it for their own and they have done so.

> The empire extracted its
> price (in spite of the added vocabulary) and then there are Americans
> and any charm English might have once possessed is now gone. In
> America, word/pharse making is an industry and most fads hardly last
> 10 years. Consider the charming Angstgegner that seems to be entering
> English to denote a dreaded sports adversary - although the more
> pedestrian-souding and native "having someone's number" does have a
> storied past.

Shhhhheeeeshhhhh.

pjk

[pauljk]

"António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message

news:kdkdeq$uv1$1...@dont-email.me...

> Ruud Harmsen wrote (20-01-2013 11:58):
>>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> HISTÓRIA DA LÍNGUA PORTUGUESA -- PAUL TEYSSIER
>>>>
>>>> This is the book (or the subject and description, I didn't know it
>>>> existed) I have been looking for for so long! It was written in 1980
>>>> (in French) and translated into Portuguese in 1982. Why didn't I
>>>> discover it before???
>>
>> Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:23:43 +0000 (UTC): António Marques
>> <anton...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:
>>> Because you are always distraído.
>>
>> I am. Now too, doing bookkeeping, website privacy issues, and historic
>> Portuguese phonetics all at the same time.
>
> Privacy issues? Care to share that with us?
>
>>> Ekkehard mentioned it at least once.
>>
>> Does Google know? Yes, it does, 2005 and 2006:
>> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=PAUL+TEYSSIER+group%3Asci.lang&qt_s=Search+Groups
>>
>>> I don't have it, but I do have an abridged translation. I can't say I find
>>> it awesome, but afaicr it doesn't contain errors.
>>
>> It reconstructs when certain changes took place, using a source I
>> didn't know about either: Luís António Verney, "Verdadeiro Método de
>> Estudar, 1746. http://purl.pt/118/2/ .
>>
>> The local (well, 10 km)
>
> ? I have to drive 9.5 K(where's Paul? will he make an appearance if I call him
> Pavel?)m to my company office.

What? Is that you calling my old name?
9.5Km = 9.728km

Some traffic signs over here downunder use the abbreviation KM.
I find 1024 Megas quite difficult to interpret. It's the usual
Anglo-Saxon way of fighting metrification. Resist it as long as
you can and when you are forced to convert make a completely
unpleasant mockery of it.
Weights of food products in supermarkets in grams and lengths
of timber in timberyards in millimetres.
pjk

[pauljk]

"António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message

news:kdk7uj$qcq$1...@dont-email.me...

By some measure of serendipity serendipity looks okay
in Czech and can be declined if necessary. Of course it
doesn't feel like a genuine Slavic word. There are no related
cognates so it has the feel of a word dropped in from a great height.

pjk

[António Marques]

Speaking of that, what can Franz make of it? He's been conspicuously absent
from this thread.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:35:44 +0100: Trond Engen <tron...@engen.priv.no>
schreef/wrote:

>> Not many languages have their own single domestic word for
>> serendipity. Some languages have long descriptive approximations

>> of it, such as Russian "??????????? ?????????????" (intuitive insight?).
>> German has "Sp�rsinn".

>
>When that film came, all and sundry, at least around here, started
>saying that 'serendipity' was such a good word in English and impossible
>to translate. I think that's what the marketing material told. It's
>wrong. Norwegian has the perfectly everyday word "lykketreff".

Gelukstreffer!

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:54:34 +0000: Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
schreef/wrote:

>> I am. Now too, doing bookkeeping, website privacy issues, and historic
>> Portuguese phonetics all at the same time.
>
>Privacy issues? Care to share that with us?

Not really an issue, but the plan to write a statement. Seems to be
obligatory under European directives and corresponding Dutch laws.

It will appear in at least English and Dutch, which I know you can
both read. So wait and see.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jan 22, 7:37 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:54:34 +0000: António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt>

> schreef/wrote:
>
> >> I am. Now too, doing bookkeeping, website privacy issues, and historic
> >> Portuguese phonetics all at the same time.
>
> >Privacy issues? Care to share that with us?
>
> Not really an issue, but the plan to write a statement. Seems to be
> obligatory under European directives and corresponding Dutch laws.
>
> It will appear in at least English and Dutch, which I know you can
> both read. So wait and see.

That's what you would say if you were addressing two people -- you
intended "which I know you can read both of." Does this mean that
Dutch can extract a wh-word in an environment where English can't?

[Ruud Harmsen]

>> It will appear in at least English and Dutch, which I know you can
>> both read. So wait and see.

Peter T. Daniels

>That's what you would say if you were addressing two people -- you
>intended "which I know you can read both of." Does this mean that
>Dutch can extract a wh-word in an environment where English can't?

Let me try:
Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, waarvan ik weet
dat je ze allebei (or: beide) kunt lezen.
... where of I know that you them both can read.

Or:
Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, talen die je
zoals ik weet beide/allebei kunt lezen.
... languages that you as I know both can read.

I may have been influenced. There is no ambiguity in Dutch. I am
having difficulty getting used to "which I know you can read both of".
Sounds ungrammatical to me.

[António Marques]

Ruud Harmsen wrote (22-01-2013 15:24):
>>> It will appear in at least English and Dutch, which I know you can
>>> both read. So wait and see.
>
> Peter T. Daniels
>> That's what you would say if you were addressing two people -- you
>> intended "which I know you can read both of." Does this mean that
>> Dutch can extract a wh-word in an environment where English can't?
>
> Let me try:
> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, waarvan ik weet
> dat je ze allebei (or: beide) kunt lezen.
> ... where of I know that you them both can read.
>
> Or:
> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, talen die je
> zoals ik weet beide/allebei kunt lezen.
> ... languages that you as I know both can read.

And no one explains me what is 'er' doing there.
Who is this 'er' word, anyway? Does it have cognates?

> I may have been influenced. There is no ambiguity in Dutch. I am
> having difficulty getting used to "which I know you can read both of".
> Sounds ungrammatical to me.

Just move 'both of' to before 'which' :)

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's non-formal, but much more likely to be heard than "both of which
I know you can read," but the _actual_ way you'd say it is "It will
appear in at least English and Dutch. I know you can read both of
them."

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:29:28 +0000: António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
schreef/wrote:

>> Let me try:
>> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, waarvan ik weet
>> dat je ze allebei (or: beide) kunt lezen.
>> ... where of I know that you them both can read.
>>
>> Or:
>> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, talen die je
>> zoals ik weet beide/allebei kunt lezen.
>> ... languages that you as I know both can read.
>
>And no one explains me what is 'er' doing there.

http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/body.html
http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/02/body.html

>Who is this 'er' word, anyway? Does it have cognates?

It is often pronounced as /d@r/ and written <d'r>, so it seems likely
there it's a reduced for of <daar>, cognate with English <there>.

[António Marques]

Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:29:28 +0000: António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
> schreef/wrote:
>
>>> Let me try:
>>> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, waarvan ik weet
>>> dat je ze allebei (or: beide) kunt lezen.
>>> ... where of I know that you them both can read.
>>>
>>> Or:
>>> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, talen die je
>>> zoals ik weet beide/allebei kunt lezen.
>>> ... languages that you as I know both can read.
>>
>> And no one explains me what is 'er' doing there.
>
> http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/body.html
> http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/02/body.html

I can get the locative, and the presentative most of the times, but this
one does have me lost. Of course, I believe whatever you say about it.

>> Who is this 'er' word, anyway? Does it have cognates?
>
> It is often pronounced as /d@r/ and written <d'r>, so it seems likely
> there it's a reduced for of <daar>, cognate with English <there>.

Mmmmmmmmm. But of course. er = [d@r/] (sometimes). Obvious, really!

[António Marques]

"pauljk" <paul....@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> "António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message news:kdkdeq$uv1$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Ruud Harmsen wrote (20-01-2013 11:58):
>>> The local (well, 10 km)
>>
>> ? I have to drive 9.5 K(where's Paul? will he make an appearance if I
>> call him > Pavel?)m to my company office.
>
> What? Is that you calling my old name?
> 9.5Km = 9.728km
>
> Some traffic signs over here downunder use the abbreviation KM.
> I find 1024 Megas quite difficult to interpret. It's the usual
> Anglo-Saxon way of fighting metrification. Resist it as long as
> you can and when you are forced to convert make a completely
> unpleasant mockery of it.
> Weights of food products in supermarkets in grams and lengths
> of timber in timberyards in millimetres.

It's unadulterated genius, admit it!

[DKleinecke]

On Jan 21, 12:35 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
> pauljk:
>

> > "António Marques" <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote in message

Sometimes someone has a really good idea, drops it into one language
and it spreads like wildfire. For example, "OK".

I get the feeling that, sometime around two thousand years ago in the
Mediterranean area, someone started saying "Yes" and "No" and it
spread in all directions - often by stimulus diffusion. And before
that I imagine someone in the same area, maybe six thousand years ago,
inventing the dual. The idea of a feminine gender is suspect but seems
to be known worldwide. Perhaps it was lost and reinvented.

[pauljk]

"António Marques" <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote in message

news:kdn79b$3ob$1...@dont-email.me...

It's evil genius. :-)

All the immigrants from countries that have adopted metric
system generations ago are now made to suffer and to feel
sorry for having started this metric lark in the first place.

pjk

[Ruud Harmsen]

>>>> Het komt er in elk geval in het Engels en Nederlands, talen die je
>>>> zoals ik weet beide/allebei kunt lezen.
>>>> ... languages that you as I know both can read.
>>>
>>> And no one explains me what is 'er' doing there.
>>
>> http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/body.html
>> http://ans.ruhosting.nl/e-ans/08/06/02/body.html

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:18:28 +0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> schreef/wrote:

>I can get the locative, and the presentative most of the times, but this
>one does have me lost. Of course, I believe whatever you say about it.

I don't know if a locative or whatever else explains it, I only know
it is required, because it doesn't sound right without it. Not all
occurences of 'er' are required, but many are.

>>> Who is this 'er' word, anyway? Does it have cognates?
>>
>> It is often pronounced as /d@r/ and written <d'r>, so it seems likely

>> that it's a reduced form of <daar>, cognate with English <there>.

>
>Mmmmmmmmm. But of course. er = [d@r/] (sometimes). Obvious, really!

Ga zo door! Zo kom je er wel!

Keep on trying! You'll succeed in the end!
= You get there, i.e. in the state of knowing Dutch quite well. You'll
arrive at the unspecified and unmentioned finish.