>> On television (in television? prepositions are a nightmare in >> English). Most of them, especially young people, talk like that. >> Extreme example: The Nanny. One of the ugliest voices I've ever heard.
Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:32:47 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
>If you think Fran Drescher's stage persona is typically American, you >have a _lot_ of American-studying to do.
She's probably a persiflage, but the real thing is almost as bad. Not all American accents are alike of course, I do know that.
>("on television" is correct)
Sigh of relief.
>Can you provide a _legitimate_ example of "all Americans" talking as you >claim?
There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of sentences. Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist. 'Sex and the city' is another example.
Similar voice effects, but less ugly, occur in Finnish, and in Asian languages like Thai and Indonesian. Some German men do similar things, like constantly raising the larynx, which results in an unpleasantly loud voice. Many other don't though.
All of these effect are different, and I couldn't accurately describe the differences. But I do hear them.
(PS. I may have been using words here that don't exist in English, too tired to look them up, although I have plenty of dictionaries within reach).
Ruud Harmsen wrote: > There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, > I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all > talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of > sentences. Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk > makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds > like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist. > 'Sex and the city' is another example.
Oy! Who has better speech than Cynthia Nixon, a speaker of my accent, Postwar New York Prestige Standard?
> >> On television (in television? prepositions are a nightmare in > >> English). Most of them, especially young people, talk like that. > >> Extreme example: The Nanny. One of the ugliest voices I've ever heard.
> Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:32:47 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang: > >If you think Fran Drescher's stage persona is typically American, you > >have a _lot_ of American-studying to do.
> She's probably a persiflage, but the real thing is almost as bad. Not > all American accents are alike of course, I do know that.
> >("on television" is correct)
> Sigh of relief.
> >Can you provide a _legitimate_ example of "all Americans" talking as you > >claim?
> There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, > I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all > talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of > sentences. Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk > makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds > like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist. > 'Sex and the city' is another example.
> Similar voice effects, but less ugly, occur in Finnish, and in Asian > languages like Thai and Indonesian. > Some German men do similar things, like constantly raising the larynx, > which results in an unpleasantly loud voice. Many other don't though.
> All of these effect are different, and I couldn't accurately describe > the differences. But I do hear them.
> (PS. I may have been using words here that don't exist in English, too > tired to look them up, although I have plenty of dictionaries within > reach).
> >> On television (in television? prepositions are a nightmare in > >> English). Most of them, especially young people, talk like that. > >> Extreme example: The Nanny. One of the ugliest voices I've ever heard.
> Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:32:47 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang: > >If you think Fran Drescher's stage persona is typically American, you > >have a _lot_ of American-studying to do.
> She's probably a persiflage, but the real thing is almost as bad.
I don't see that you've provided any examples of "the real thing" so far.
> Not > all American accents are alike of course, I do know that.
You're not talking about accent, you're talking about timbre, affect, etc.
> >("on television" is correct)
> Sigh of relief.
> >Can you provide a _legitimate_ example of "all Americans" talking as you > >claim?
> There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it,
What, young Dutch girls speaking Dutch? The Belgian and Dutch women I met in Antwerp last month certainly didn't sound like that when speaking English.
> I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all > talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of > sentences.
That's the exact opposite of the Hollywood stereotype of teenage girls.
> Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk > makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds > like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist.
I guess this is what you're referring to below -- we just say "speech therapist."
> 'Sex and the city' is another example.
Of what? I don't have cable, and I've seen exactly one episode in my life.
> Similar voice effects, but less ugly, occur in Finnish, and in Asian > languages like Thai and Indonesian. > Some German men do similar things, like constantly raising the larynx, > which results in an unpleasantly loud voice. Many other don't though.
And Cambodians and Indonesians talk with very high pitch. So what?
> All of these effect are different, and I couldn't accurately describe > the differences. But I do hear them.
> (PS. I may have been using words here that don't exist in English, too > tired to look them up, although I have plenty of dictionaries within > reach).
Don't know what else you might be talking about. -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
> Incidentally, I've tried to think of a pair to illustrate > contrastive distribution between the phonemes /O/ and /A./. > I've finally thought of "sot" and "sought", which are > homophones in my idiolect, but are pronounced [sA.t] and > [sO:t], respectively, in _NSOED_. What are some others?
bott and bought; cot and caught/court; dotter and daughter; fodder and forder; hotty and haughty; joss and jaws (not quite); loss and laws (ditto); moss and Morse; not and naught; otter and oughter; potter and porter; quot and quart; rot and rort; sod and sword; tot and taught; volt and vault; what/watt and wart; yachter and Yorta Yorta.
I can't find any words in English starting with [zO:], but.
> > Incidentally, I've tried to think of a pair to illustrate > > contrastive distribution between the phonemes /O/ and /A./. > > I've finally thought of "sot" and "sought", which are > > homophones in my idiolect, but are pronounced [sA.t] and > > [sO:t], respectively, in _NSOED_. What are some others?
> bott and bought; cot and caught/court; dotter and daughter; fodder and > forder; hotty and haughty; joss and jaws (not quite); loss and laws (ditto); > moss and Morse; not and naught; otter and oughter; potter and porter; quot > and quart; rot and rort; sod and sword; tot and taught; volt and vault; > what/watt and wart; yachter and Yorta Yorta.
> I can't find any words in English starting with [zO:], but.
You overlook the digraphs ...
A few pairs don't fit the pattern: loss/laws/moss/Morse all /O/ (allowing you nonrhoticism for this exercise); volt is /ow/. I don't think I've ever heard joss or quot spoken, but I'd guess /O/ for joss. -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:09:39 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
>> She's probably a persiflage, but the real thing is almost as bad.
>I don't see that you've provided any examples of "the real thing" so >far.
This type of accents is so abundant it is not hard to hear examples.
>> Not >> all American accents are alike of course, I do know that.
>You're not talking about accent, you're talking about timbre, affect, >etc.
Isn't all of that part of what makes an 'accent', a pronunciation style? To me it is.
>> There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young >> girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it,
>What, young Dutch girls speaking Dutch?
No, American girls speaking American English, of course.
>> Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk >> makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds >> like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist.
>I guess this is what you're referring to below -- we just say "speech >therapist."
Right. This was one of the words I had doubts about.
> Sun, 07 Nov 2004 14:09:39 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
> >> She's probably a persiflage, but the real thing is almost as bad.
> >I don't see that you've provided any examples of "the real thing" so > >far.
> This type of accents is so abundant it is not hard to hear examples.
You argue like SJ.
> >> Not > >> all American accents are alike of course, I do know that.
> >You're not talking about accent, you're talking about timbre, affect, > >etc.
> Isn't all of that part of what makes an 'accent', a pronunciation > style? To me it is.
No.
> >> There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > >> girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it,
> >What, young Dutch girls speaking Dutch?
> No, American girls speaking American English, of course.
Then I don't know what you meant by "of American descent." I'd say *All in the Family* and *Sanford and Son* were TV shows on American TV, of British descent, because they were based on British sitcoms. (Likewise *Survivor*, for that matter -- originally done somewhere else.)
So what is this American TV show with teenage girls trying to become models?
> >> Although some of the girls look nice, the way they talk > >> makes me almost forget I'm a heterosexual. It is just so ugly. Sounds > >> like a speech defect, in bad need of consulting a logopedist.
> >I guess this is what you're referring to below -- we just say "speech > >therapist."
> Right. This was one of the words I had doubts about.
>> > Incidentally, I've tried to think of a pair to illustrate >> > contrastive distribution between the phonemes /O/ and /A./. >> > I've finally thought of "sot" and "sought", which are >> > homophones in my idiolect, but are pronounced [sA.t] and >> > [sO:t], respectively, in _NSOED_. What are some others?
>> bott and bought; cot and caught/court; dotter and daughter; fodder >> and >> forder; hotty and haughty; joss and jaws (not quite); loss and laws >> (ditto); >> moss and Morse; not and naught; otter and oughter; potter and >> porter; quot >> and quart; rot and rort; sod and sword; tot and taught; volt and >> vault; >> what/watt and wart; yachter and Yorta Yorta.
>> I can't find any words in English starting with [zO:], but.
> You overlook the digraphs ...
> A few pairs don't fit the pattern: loss/laws/moss/Morse all /O/ > (allowing you nonrhoticism for this exercise); volt is /ow/. I don't > think I've ever heard joss or quot spoken, but I'd guess /O/ for > joss.
The <oss> words tend to have the "cot" vowel in non-American varieties. (They're in Wells's CLOTH class, which tends to merge with LOT in BrE and with THOUGHT in AmE.)
Other than the non-rhotic ones, the pair that doesn't work for me is "volt"/"vault" - these are the same for me, both with /ow/, though I think that's localised.
Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:57:58 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <realemailseesit...@rudhar.com>: in sci.lang:
>There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young >girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, >I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all >talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of >sentences.
Heather from California: Hardly any occurences. Jenascia from Seattle and a bit of Iowa: hardly does it if at all.
Shandi at: http://www.upn.com/shows/top_model2/video/audition_shandi.shtml girl (22), have been (24), will be (25), Im not (41), black sheep (50). In this last example it's not at the end, but in bla and shee, quickly switched on, off, on and off again. It isn't especially low here, but it is something with the vocal chord, I don't know what, I can't describe it and can't imitate it. But I do know it sounds very unpleasant.
Jonathan Jordan wrote: > > A few pairs don't fit the pattern: loss/laws/moss/Morse all /O/ > > (allowing you nonrhoticism for this exercise); volt is /ow/. I don't > > think I've ever heard joss or quot spoken, but I'd guess /O/ for > > joss.
> The <oss> words tend to have the "cot" vowel in non-American > varieties. (They're in Wells's CLOTH class, which tends to merge with > LOT in BrE and with THOUGHT in AmE.)
> Other than the non-rhotic ones, the pair that doesn't work for me is > "volt"/"vault" - these are the same for me, both with /ow/, though I > think that's localised.
What about fault? Gault? gaunt/Gaunt? -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
> Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:57:58 +0100: Ruud Harmsen > <realemailseesit...@rudhar.com>: in sci.lang:
> >There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > >girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, > >I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all > >talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of > >sentences.
> Heather from California: Hardly any occurences. > Jenascia from Seattle and a bit of Iowa: hardly does it if at all.
> Shandi at: > http://www.upn.com/shows/top_model2/video/audition_shandi.shtml > girl (22), have been (24), will be (25), Im not (41), black sheep > (50). In this last example it's not at the end, but in bla and shee, > quickly switched on, off, on and off again. It isn't especially low > here, but it is something with the vocal chord, I don't know what, I > can't describe it and can't imitate it. > But I do know it sounds very unpleasant.
> Yoanna: doesn't do it.
So you've got 6 no's and 2 yes's. You give locations for the no's but not the yes's. Thank you for disproving your own allegation, and for showing how you even withhold relevant data in doing so. -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
> > Ruud Harmsen <realemailseesit...@rudhar.com>: in sci.lang:
> > >There is new TV show on Dutch TV now, of American descent, where young > > >girls around 18 try to become models. My daughters and wife watch it, > > >I don't. I hear them talk while I sit behind my computer. They all > > >talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of > > >sentences.
> > Some examples of the lowness, creakiness of the voice that I referred > > to earlier:
> > Anna and Bethany don't do it. Because their from the south? Bethany > > says she's from Houston, Anna talks just like Elvis did, it seems to > > me.
> > Heather from California: Hardly any occurences. > > Jenascia from Seattle and a bit of Iowa: hardly does it if at all.
> > Shandi at: > > http://www.upn.com/shows/top_model2/video/audition_shandi.shtml > > girl (22), have been (24), will be (25), Im not (41), black sheep > > (50). In this last example it's not at the end, but in bla and shee, > > quickly switched on, off, on and off again. It isn't especially low > > here, but it is something with the vocal chord, I don't know what, I > > can't describe it and can't imitate it. > > But I do know it sounds very unpleasant.
> > Yoanna: doesn't do it.
> So you've got 6 no's and 2 yes's. You give locations for the no's but > not the yes's. Thank you for disproving your own allegation, and for > showing how you even withhold relevant data in doing so.
I found the biographical info on another page. The two speakers whose voices bother him are Midwestern -- Shandi is from Kansas City, MO, and Catie is from Willmar MN. The others are: CA, FL, GA, NJ, NY, TX, WA.
I'm glad Ruud did find these sound clips, because now I feel I know the particular "creak" effect he means. I've heard it all my life -- heck, I'm related to people who talk like that -- and don't find it in any way shocking and objectionable. It's barely noticeable to me, and it's sort of friendly.
I find it odd that it stands out to Ruud's ears, but it seems very hard to predict what one group will find striking in another group's speech.
Ruud, when we've finished with this, maybe you could identify where those Dutch women come from who talk with a shrill screech that to me sounds as if it could scrape paint off a windowsill. Why, oh why can't you all talk like the melodious Flemish? (Just kidding, or at least partly. I think the Belgian voices tend to be pleasantly low and round, but this is all individual preference.)
-- Best wishes -- Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands
Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:00:06 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
>So you've got 6 no's and 2 yes's. You give locations for the no's but >not the yes's.
I gave them where the girls themselves said where they were from. I don't know about the others, and I'm not familiar enough with American accents to be able to localize them myself
>Thank you for disproving your own allegation, /
I proved that the phenomenon exists, but also that it isn't generally done by everyone, and that it doesn't occur as often as I thought, even in the speech of those who do do it.
>and for >showing how you even withhold relevant data in doing so.
It's not a question of withholding, but of not having. I'd tell you if I knew where they're from, but I don't.
Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:19:00 +0100: t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux): in sci.lang:
>I'm glad Ruud did find these sound clips, because now I feel I know the >particular "creak" effect he means. I've heard it all my life -- heck, >I'm related to people who talk like that -- and don't find it in any way >shocking and objectionable. It's barely noticeable to me, and it's sort >of friendly.
Perhaps because you're used to it, because it is so common in American English.
>I find it odd that it stands out to Ruud's ears, but it seems very hard >to predict what one group will find striking in another group's speech.
I notice it because it never occurs in other languages I often hear, including English from other places than North-America.
Similar things happen, as I mentioned earlier, in some languages in South-East Asia, and in West-Afrika. But I hardly ever hear these.
>Ruud, when we've finished with this, maybe you could identify where >those Dutch women come from who talk with a shrill screech that to me >sounds as if it could scrape paint off a windowsill. Why, oh why can't >you all talk like the melodious Flemish?
I'm not particularly fond of the sound of my own language either, and I too like its pronunciation styles from Belgium better (some of them, many different accents exist in both countries)
>(Just kidding, or at least >partly. I think the Belgian voices tend to be pleasantly low and round, >but this is all individual preference.)
> Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:19:00 +0100: t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux): in > sci.lang:
> >I'm glad Ruud did find these sound clips, because now I feel I know the > >particular "creak" effect he means. I've heard it all my life -- heck, > >I'm related to people who talk like that -- and don't find it in any way > >shocking and objectionable. It's barely noticeable to me, and it's sort > >of friendly.
> Perhaps because you're used to it, because it is so common in American > English.
Found in 25% of your own sample. That's "so common"?
> >I find it odd that it stands out to Ruud's ears, but it seems very hard > >to predict what one group will find striking in another group's speech.
> I notice it because it never occurs in other languages I often hear, > including English from other places than North-America.
"Creaky voice," as Donna called it, is phonemic in Burmese.
> >Ruud, when we've finished with this, maybe you could identify where > >those Dutch women come from who talk with a shrill screech that to me > >sounds as if it could scrape paint off a windowsill. Why, oh why can't > >you all talk like the melodious Flemish?
> I'm not particularly fond of the sound of my own language either, and > I too like its pronunciation styles from Belgium better (some of them, > many different accents exist in both countries)
> >(Just kidding, or at least > >partly. I think the Belgian voices tend to be pleasantly low and round, > >but this is all individual preference.)
> Mon, 08 Nov 2004 14:00:06 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
> >So you've got 6 no's and 2 yes's. You give locations for the no's but > >not the yes's.
> I gave them where the girls themselves said where they were from. I > don't know about the others, and I'm not familiar enough with American > accents to be able to localize them myself
> >Thank you for disproving your own allegation, /
> I proved that the phenomenon exists, but also that it isn't generally > done by everyone, and that it doesn't occur as often as I thought, > even in the speech of those who do do it.
> >and for > >showing how you even withhold relevant data in doing so.
> It's not a question of withholding, but of not having. I'd tell you if > I knew where they're from, but I don't.
Donna managed to find it within 20 minutes of my posting. -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:12:23 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
>> It's not a question of withholding, but of not having. I'd tell you if >> I knew where they're from, but I don't.
>Donna managed to find it within 20 minutes of my posting.
I hadn't been looking for it. Writing to sci.lang isn't my only occupation. I didn't expect region had much to do with it. Knowing it may often occur in Mid-Western accents doesn't help me much, because I wouldn't recognize one if I heard one. (I don't even know exactly where the Mid-West is). To me, Am-E sounds pretty uniform. I can distinguish New-York from Tennessee, maybe, but that's about it. Of course I am willing to believe that many other differences exist, it's just that I don't know enough about them to recognize them.
> > > A few pairs don't fit the pattern: loss/laws/moss/Morse all /O/ > > > (allowing you nonrhoticism for this exercise); volt is /ow/. I don't > > > think I've ever heard joss or quot spoken, but I'd guess /O/ for > > > joss.
> > The <oss> words tend to have the "cot" vowel in non-American > > varieties. (They're in Wells's CLOTH class, which tends to merge with > > LOT in BrE and with THOUGHT in AmE.)
> > Other than the non-rhotic ones, the pair that doesn't work for me is > > "volt"/"vault" - these are the same for me, both with /ow/, though I > > think that's localised.
> What about fault? Gault? gaunt/Gaunt?
It's just before /l/ - "gaunt" is /gOnt/, as you'd expect.
I have a complicated vowel merger before /l/ which leads to the following words all having the same vowel: doll, golf, dolphin; salt, false, fault, vault; pole, dole, goal, gold, colt, volt. I tend to identify the merged vowel with /ow/.
It doesn't affect words where the /l/ is followed by a vowel - "holly" and "holy" are distinct - and it doesn't affect words like "hall" and "call", which retain /O/, or their inflections, like "halls" and "called".
> > > > A few pairs don't fit the pattern: loss/laws/moss/Morse all /O/ > > > > (allowing you nonrhoticism for this exercise); volt is /ow/. I don't > > > > think I've ever heard joss or quot spoken, but I'd guess /O/ for > > > > joss.
> > > The <oss> words tend to have the "cot" vowel in non-American > > > varieties. (They're in Wells's CLOTH class, which tends to merge with > > > LOT in BrE and with THOUGHT in AmE.)
> > > Other than the non-rhotic ones, the pair that doesn't work for me is > > > "volt"/"vault" - these are the same for me, both with /ow/, though I > > > think that's localised.
> > What about fault? Gault? gaunt/Gaunt?
> It's just before /l/ - "gaunt" is /gOnt/, as you'd expect.
> I have a complicated vowel merger before /l/ which leads to the following > words all having the same vowel: doll, golf, dolphin; salt, false, fault, > vault; pole, dole, goal, gold, colt, volt. I tend to identify the merged > vowel with /ow/.
> It doesn't affect words where the /l/ is followed by a vowel - "holly" and > "holy" are distinct - and it doesn't affect words like "hall" and "call", > which retain /O/, or their inflections, like "halls" and "called".
Goonniss! Is it just you, or is it the Northern area you're always careful to specify when you mention your dialect? -- Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
They all talk with those very low, creaky voices, especially at the end of sentences.
We discussed this a few times in alt.usage.english. Nobody liked it, but we couldn't decide what it was modeled after. It has always been uncommon. I haven't heard it for years.
You can search for <creaky voice>, <throat creak>, <croak voice>, <creak voice> within alt.usage.english. RealAnything is not allowed on this machine -- do you have wave or mp3 examples, or can somebody verify that it is the same phenomenon as discussed before?
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
