Re: Was it George Orwell who coined the term "big brother"?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 13, 7:07 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> On Apr 11, 11:35 pm, Chris Tsao <rigida7...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Was the term "big brother" coined by George Orwell?
>
> "alien8er" <alien8...@gmail.com> recommended in messagenews:dd76cfe7-3dec-4a28...@vq7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four)#Purpo...
>
> This article is good so far as it goes, but omits a further point of
> irony Orwell noticed during his experience of Stalinist polemics.
> and propaganda.
>
> French revolutionaries had adopted the title "Citizen" after
> 1791, viz. abolished titles (of duke, lord, and even man and
> woman, viz. Mr. and Mrs.) for all people, henceforward to be
> addressed as Citizen Smith.   This endowed everyone with
> a recognized social or civic status (which was ironic or
> hypocritical for those the Jacobins were determined to exterminate
> anyway.)
>
> Leninist and Stalinist communists similarly adopted the

"comrade" is also used by Trotskysts or whatever sort of communists.

> word "Comrade," displacing noble titles, Mr. and Mrs. and all
> other social labels:  so even the top party dictator became Comrade
> Stalin nominally just the same as Comrade Smith.
>
> In his fiction, Orwell went one step further, viz. named the
> party boss Big Brother.   This name derives from family
> kinship, not civil status i.e. asserts a more closely intimate
> relationship between the party boss and Winston Smith
> and everyone else than civic equality.  (Even Margaret
> Thatcher, when denying the reality of social institutions,
> said there were individuals and families were real.)   --But
> the IngSoc party and state remained dictatorial (a boot
> stepping on a human face) regardless of whether Big Brother
> was real or invented by propaganda, so that the family name
> Big Brother (rather than Citizen or Comrade) becomes extra ironic.
>

which reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is ağa (a*gh*a)
but ağa has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
"big brother" has been expanded into ağabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
abi, the final form being used amongst the family). during the Ottoman
period ağa was the title of minor court officials and eunuchs as well
as teh head of the Janissarires, though in the modernized army it came
to be the title of unlettered junior officers. Eastern Turkic has aqa
with the same meaning as "big brother", Turkmen has a:*gh*a. it has
been borrowed into Hindustani, hence the leader of the Nizari Ismailis
(the continuation of the medieval Assasins) being called the Agha
Khan. in the Modern Persian of Iran, Farsi (I don't know of
Afghanistan - Dari). a:*gh*a: (spelt a:qa: as in Eastern Turkic - Dari
does not pronounce <q> as *gh*) is used for "Mr." but the homophonous
a:*gh*a: (spelt with *gh*) means "eunuch" (from Ottoman Turkish).

in the legendary part of a chronicle of Turkish history (Selçukname)
penned (this part derived from an earlier source Oğuzname) in the
early 15th century making a play on words of the meaning "elder
brother" and "lord, master", the chronicler says (justifying the
supremacy of the legendary ancestor of the Ottomans) that "when the
elder brother (ağa) is present the younger brother should not take
upon the lordship (ağalık)"

a*gh*a / aqa is not found in Old Turkic but is found in Mongolian as
aqa (*a:qa; Khlakha, in the modern standard, Khalkha a*kh*) "elder
brother". Batu as the son of the eldest son of Chinggis (who had died
prematurely just before Chinggis) had a priviliged position in the
assembly (Kurultai) of princes as arbiter and gave up his claim for
Great Khan in favour of Ögedey in return for the autonomy for his
domains (ulus), which came to be known as the Golden Horde in
Russian. a cognate of a*gh*a / aqa in Chuvash (but Mongolian
loanowrds in Chuvash are tenable) as "elder sister".

there is also the seperate Mongolian title of a*gh*a as "princess"
which is a different word.

[Don Phillipson]

"Yusuf B Gursey" <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

> reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now

> unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is aga (a*gh*a)
> but aga has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> "big brother" has been expanded into agabey (colloquially [a:bei] >

> abi, the final form being used amongst the family).

Both honorifics entered the English language in the 19th century.
Various Ottoman viceroys were identified as Beys (e.g. Bey of
Tunis) and the world leader of Ismaili Moslems has for more
than a century been known as the Aga Khan.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 14, 8:43 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

>
> >  reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> >  for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
> >  unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is aga (a*gh*a)
> >  but aga has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> >  "big brother" has been expanded into agabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
> >  abi, the final form being used amongst the family).
>
> Both honorifics entered the English language in the 19th century.
> Various Ottoman viceroys were identified as Beys (e.g. Bey of
> Tunis)  and the world leader of Ismaili Moslems has for more
> than a century been known as the Aga Khan.

Including the one who married Rita Hayworth ...

Is that the same one who was an art collector and patron?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 14, 8:43 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

> "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

>
> >  reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> >  for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
> >  unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is aga (a*gh*a)
> >  but aga has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> >  "big brother" has been expanded into agabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
> >  abi, the final form being used amongst the family).
>
> Both honorifics entered the English language in the 19th century.
> Various Ottoman viceroys were identified as Beys (e.g. Bey of
> Tunis)  and the world leader of Ismaili Moslems has for more
> than a century been known as the Aga Khan.
>

yes ağabey is ağa + bey, Beg > Beğ > Bey was originally the rank of
"prince" (and was the title born by the first two Ottomans rulers)
but gradually diminished in importance, by the 19th cent. being
reduced in the military to lieutenant colonel and colonel, below the
Paşa (Pasha). provincial governors and senior cabinet ministers had
the rank of paşa as did generals in the army. inthe heyday of the
Ottoman Empire, large autonomous provinces (eyalet - the word is still
used in describing the indivdual states of the US) were headed by a
Beylerbeyi (Bey of Beys) and a Rumeli ("Roman Land". i.e European) and
an Anadolu (Anatolian) Beylerbeyi represented the two halves of the
Empire in the council of the Grand Vizier. the district of Pera in
Istanbul is called in Turkish Beyoğlu meaning "son of the Bey", the
Bey in question was the Dodge of Venice whose son had a residence in
th elocation of what is now the Italian Consulate. the district has
always been known for its European and freewheeling (with taverns, red
light entertainment etc.) lifestyle. nowadays, Bey is reduced for an
unofficial but respectful form of address, equivalent to Mr.,
postposed and following the first name with the family name ommitted
as in Ottoman times. what happened with the Republic was that all
titles were abolished, a family name was made obligatory, but the
equivalent for Mr. was chosen to be Bay and preposed as in European
usage (Arabic and Persian titles were preoposed in Ottoman Turkish so
this is the justifications language reformers cite). this has made it
unpopular in speech. "bay" is an East Turkic and perhaps Old Ottoman
word for "rich" or someone or some place blessed with bounty and was
or is still used as a mild honorific in Central Asian Turkic. Lake
Baikal is thought to have come from bay köl (Western Turkic bay göl)
"bountiful lake" but in popular etymology bay kal "remain bountiful! -
actually it is in ecological peril. for "Mrs./ Miss" Bayan was chosen.
bayan is just the Mongolian (also attested for the European Avars who
are now thought to be Turkic rather than Mongolic) form of bay. Bayan
Khan was the Chinggisid general who slaughtered the Sung of Southern
China and he was no sissy. this has also remained unpopular to this
day, being replaced by traditional Hanım (literally "my Khan" cf. Urdu
Begum "my Beg" from Eastern Turkic) postposed to the first name. in
causal conversation, generals are still called Paşa postposed to the
first name (officially General peroposed, with <G> pronounced as a
stop) though somehow the despised Kenan Evren who came to power in
bloodless, chain of command coup in 1981 abolishing civil liberties
and rewriting the constitution gets to be known usually as Evren Paşa.
"Bay" and "Bayan" are commonly used in everyday speech only in the
expression "Baylar Bayanlar" "Ladies and Gentlemen" and in desgnating
public toilets. but in writing an official document or witting the
address on the envelop we have to use "Bay" or "Bayan".

BTW it was the Dey not the Bey of Tunis. Dey being a colloquial Arabic
rendering of Turkish Dayı ""(maternal) uncle".

[Yusuf B Gursey]

some notable Turks did have a family name, but it or what went as a
surname, indicating one's place of origin or patronymic, was preposed
(as dictated by Turkish syntax), though postposed if it was in Arabic
or Persian (as dictated by Arabic or Persian syntax). left to its own
devices Turkish would have been an "Asian style" surname first
language, but now Turkic people have "European style" surname last
names, being somewhat forced to adopt European, Russian or Persian
usage. I don't know about the Uighurs and other Turkic people of
Xinjiang, China. they may have Mongolian style "single name": format.
I don't know.

at any rate, I have enough problems with my name in the US, I
shouldn't complain.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

That was Aly, son of Aga Khan III. The succession (in 1957) passed to
Aly's son (by first marriage) Karim, who is still the title holder.

> Is that the same one who was an art collector and patron?

Aly was more a standard playboy. Karim graduated from Harvard and has,
among other things, established the Aga Khan Award for Architecture,
and an Islamic Architecture program at Harvard/MIT.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Apr 15, 9:40 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 5:11 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 8:43 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > > "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >  reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> > > >  for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
> > > >  unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is aga (a*gh*a)
> > > >  but aga has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> > > >  "big brother" has been expanded into agabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
> > > >  abi, the final form being used amongst the family).
>
> > > Both honorifics entered the English language in the 19th century.
> > > Various Ottoman viceroys were identified as Beys (e.g. Bey of
> > > Tunis)  and the world leader of Ismaili Moslems has for more
> > > than a century been known as the Aga Khan.
>
> > Including the one who married Rita Hayworth ...
>
> That was Aly, son of Aga Khan III. The succession (in 1957) passed to
> Aly's son (by first marriage) Karim, who is still the title holder.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that Karim is Aga Khan IV. Aly
was passed over. Although "Aga Khan" was apparently part of his full
name, he never became _the_ Aga Khan. (Aly & Rita's daughter is called
Princess Yasmin Aga Khan.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 14, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 5:11 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 8:43 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> > > "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >  reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> > > >  for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
> > > >  unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is aga (a*gh*a)
> > > >  but aga has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> > > >  "big brother" has been expanded into agabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
> > > >  abi, the final form being used amongst the family).
>
> > > Both honorifics entered the English language in the 19th century.
> > > Various Ottoman viceroys were identified as Beys (e.g. Bey of
> > > Tunis)  and the world leader of Ismaili Moslems has for more
> > > than a century been known as the Aga Khan.
>
> > Including the one who married Rita Hayworth ...
>
> That was Aly, son of Aga Khan III. The succession (in 1957) passed to

Because he was an infidel?

> Aly's son (by first marriage) Karim, who is still the title holder.
>
> > Is that the same one who was an art collector and patron?
>
> Aly was more a standard playboy. Karim graduated from Harvard and has,
> among other things, established the Aga Khan Award for Architecture,
> and an Islamic Architecture program at Harvard/MIT.

What I know of is a calligraphy collection.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 14, 5:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

I now remember a reference to that from an architect friend in Turkey
some years ago.

[Tak To]

"Ironic"? Seriously?

I guess it is ironic only to people to whom
using kinship names as general forms
of address or honorifics (for non-familial
members) is utterly foreign. Would anyone
consider the use of "god-father" for a ruthless
mobster "ironic"?

OTOH, family affairs are rarely conducted by
democratic principles. In this light, "Big
Brother" is actually quite befitting.

> which reminds me. in Turkish and also other Turkic languages the word
> for "big brother" , "elder brother" is also used as a title (now
> unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is ağa (a*gh*a)
> but ağa has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
> "big brother" has been expanded into ağabey (colloquially [a:bei] >
> abi, the final form being used amongst the family). during the Ottoman
> period ağa was the title of minor court officials and eunuchs as well
> as teh head of the Janissarires, though in the modernized army it came
> to be the title of unlettered junior officers. Eastern Turkic has aqa
> with the same meaning as "big brother", Turkmen has a:*gh*a. it has
> been borrowed into Hindustani, hence the leader of the Nizari Ismailis
> (the continuation of the medieval Assasins) being called the Agha
> Khan. in the Modern Persian of Iran, Farsi (I don't know of
> Afghanistan - Dari). a:*gh*a: (spelt a:qa: as in Eastern Turkic - Dari
> does not pronounce <q> as *gh*) is used for "Mr." but the homophonous
> a:*gh*a: (spelt with *gh*) means "eunuch" (from Ottoman Turkish).

In English "Brother" is more or less restricted
to religious orders or secret societies; or
in the African American community. However, I
think this might be the exception rather than the
norm. I would that it is very common for cultures
to use "brother" or "elder brother" as general
forms of address or honorifics.

In colloquial Mandarin <lao3 xiong1> (老兄
"old elder-brother") is an informal address
for strangers (the "old" is to show respect)
though it is considered somewhat rustic these
days.

The suffix -<xiong1> 兄 is an honorific for
people of the same generation/rank. The usage
goes back to Classical Chinese.

In Cantonese gang leaders are addressed as
<dai3 go1> (大哥 first elder-brother） since
by joining a gang one is sworn into becoming
a brother of the other members.

> in the legendary part of a chronicle of Turkish history (Selçukname)
> penned (this part derived from an earlier source Oğuzname) in the
> early 15th century making a play on words of the meaning "elder
> brother" and "lord, master", the chronicler says (justifying the
> supremacy of the legendary ancestor of the Ottomans) that "when the
> elder brother (ağa) is present the younger brother should not take
> upon the lordship (ağalık)"

There is the Italian film "Padre Padrone".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076517/

> a*gh*a / aqa is not found in Old Turkic but is found in Mongolian as
> aqa (*a:qa; Khlakha, in the modern standard, Khalkha a*kh*) "elder
> brother". Batu as the son of the eldest son of Chinggis (who had died
> prematurely just before Chinggis) had a priviliged position in the
> assembly (Kurultai) of princes as arbiter and gave up his claim for
> Great Khan in favour of Ögedey in return for the autonomy for his
> domains (ulus),

I thought Temujin himself split the empire and named
Ögedei his successor before he died. Who would have
challenged Ögedei in the kurultai?

Batu himself probably had no chance at all, given
questionable paternity of his father Jochi. (Temujin's
wife Börte was kidnapped by the Merkits and by the
time she was rescued, she was pregnant with Jochi.
Though Temujin has always treated Jochi as a son
others took a dimmer view.)

You might be thinking of the fake Kurultai that
Batu called in 1250 (in his own territory, with no
representative from the Ögedeid and Chagataid
fractions) in which he was nominated to succeed
Güyük (son and successor of Ögedei). He rejected
the nomination and championed Möngke (son of
Tului) instead. Möngke eventually became the
Great Khan.

Btw, I never quite understand the concept of
"ulus". In particular, where was Ögedei's
personal ulus, given that it was Tului, being
the youngest son of Temujin and thus the "keeper
of the hearth" who inherited the Mongolian
heartland? Does it mean that being the Great
Khan, the entire empire was his ulus? So what
would have happened had his son Güyük not become
the next Great Khan[*]? Would he (Güyük) then
have no "ulus" at all?

[*] The succession of the Great Khan was supposed
to be by merit, not blood line. At least that
was what Temujin envisioned.

> which came to be known as the Golden Horde in
> Russian. a cognate of a*gh*a / aqa in Chuvash (but Mongolian
> loanowrds in Chuvash are tenable) as "elder sister".
>
> there is also the seperate Mongolian title of a*gh*a as "princess"
> which is a different word.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Peter T. Daniels]

I don't know whether it's "ironic," but it's completely fictional. It
was invented by Mario Puzo.

Eh? Where have you been the last couple of decades? Haven't you heard
"Bro"? It seems to have ousted "Dude" fairly thoroughly.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Apr 17, 7:41 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

it is also used by trade union members.

> in the African American community.  However, I
> think this might be the exception rather than the
> norm.  I would that it is very common for cultures
> to use "brother" or "elder brother" as general
> forms of address or honorifics.
>
> In colloquial Mandarin <lao3 xiong1> (老兄
> "old elder-brother") is an informal address

in Turkish kinship terms are used frequently in this context: it
depends on the age difference:

successively:

for men:

ağabey > abi (older brother), amca (paternal uncle, it is pronounced
am*dj*a), or even dede "grandfather"

for women:

abla "elder sister", teyze "maternal aunt" or even nine "grandmother"

all are Turkic except amca. amca comes from Arabic 3am of the same
meaning. but Tukish does not 3ayn the voiced pharyngeal fricative and
am in Turkish refers to the female genitilia, so the dimunitive
suffixe is added. I remember when we were helping an Arab professor in
Turkey with his Turkish and this suffix came up and we gave some
examples. he then exclaimed "ah, 3am / 3amja!" there was a dead
silence and two very prim and proper secretaries turned red.

in Chinese I remember from my Chinese-American friends from childhood
that gaga (spelling?) is "elder brother" and didi (spelling?) is
"younger brother" right? I don't know the dialect although my friends'
family were from Shanghai.

> for strangers (the "old" is to show respect)
> though it is considered somewhat rustic these
> days.
>
> The suffix -<xiong1> 兄 is an honorific for
> people of the same generation/rank.  The usage
> goes back to Classical Chinese.
>
> In Cantonese gang leaders are addressed as
> <dai3 go1> (大哥 first elder-brother） since
> by joining a gang one is sworn into becoming
> a brother of the other members.
>
> > in the legendary part of a chronicle of Turkish history (Selçukname)
> > penned (this part derived from an earlier source  Oğuzname) in the
> > early 15th century making a play on words of the meaning "elder
> > brother" and "lord, master", the chronicler says (justifying the
> > supremacy of the legendary ancestor of the Ottomans) that "when the
> > elder brother (ağa) is present the younger brother should not take
> > upon the lordship (ağalık)"
>
> There is the Italian film "Padre Padrone".
>  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076517/
>

that's the film about Sardinian language of the protagonist right?
(and with the buggery scene).

> >  a*gh*a / aqa is not found in Old Turkic but is found in Mongolian as
> > aqa (*a:qa; Khlakha, in the modern standard, Khalkha a*kh*) "elder
> > brother". Batu as the son of the eldest son of Chinggis (who had died
> > prematurely just before Chinggis) had a priviliged position in the
> > assembly (Kurultai) of princes as arbiter and gave up his claim for
> > Great Khan in favour of Ögedey in return for the autonomy for his
> > domains (ulus),
>
> I thought Temujin himself split the empire and named
> Ögedei his successor before he died.  Who would have
> challenged Ögedei in the kurultai?
>
> Batu himself probably had no chance at all, given
> questionable paternity of his father Jochi. (Temujin's
> wife Börte was kidnapped by the Merkits and by the
> time she was rescued, she was pregnant with Jochi.
> Though Temujin has always treated Jochi as a son
> others took a dimmer view.)

the Tatar Khans (Kazan, Kazimov, Crimea) are descended from Jochi and
probably there are descendants today. I wonder if a Y-Chrosome test
would settle this question?

>
> You might be thinking of the fake Kurultai that
> Batu called in 1250 (in his own territory, with no
> representative from the Ögedeid and Chagataid
> fractions) in which he was nominated to succeed
> Güyük (son and successor of Ögedei).  He rejected
> the nomination and championed Möngke (son of
> Tului) instead.  Möngke eventually became the
> Great Khan.
>

ah, that's it.

> Btw, I never quite understand the concept of
> "ulus".  In particular, where was Ögedei's

ulus reffered to territory. from Old Turkic ulu*sh* (which did not
survive). but when teh Mongols began not thinking not so much in terms
of territory as the nomadic tribes that dwelt in them it came to refer
to people. in modern Mongolian it refers ot both.

> personal ulus, given that it was Tului, being
> the youngest son of Temujin and thus the "keeper
> of the hearth" who inherited the Mongolian
> heartland?  Does it mean that being the Great
> Khan, the entire empire was his ulus?  So what
> would have happened had his son Güyük not become
> the next Great Khan[*]?  Would he (Güyük) then
> have no "ulus" at all?
>

well, the position of Great Khan (Qa'an) had become hereditary so
there is no problem. when they became the Yuan dynasty their ulus was
China.

[Tak To]

"Big Brother" is also completely fictional but
somehow "ironic".

Perhaps I should have said "... the African
American community and their imitators"? :-)

And fraternities typically have secrets.

> It seems to have ousted "Dude" fairly thoroughly.

Really? There are some recent sightings, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude

And thanks to "The Big Lebowski" by the Coens
"dude" has acquired a new meaning and a new
life.

[Tak To]

On 4/18/2013 1:37 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On Apr 17, 7:41 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>> On 4/14/2013 3:34 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>>

>>> [...]

Same for Chinese. In older days "paternal aunt"
was the norm but nowadays it is the "maternal
aunt".

> all are Turkic except amca. amca comes from Arabic 3am of the same
> meaning. but Tukish does not 3ayn the voiced pharyngeal fricative and
> am in Turkish refers to the female genitilia, so the dimunitive
> suffixe is added. I remember when we were helping an Arab professor in
> Turkey with his Turkish and this suffix came up and we gave some
> examples. he then exclaimed "ah, 3am / 3amja!" there was a dead
> silence and two very prim and proper secretaries turned red.

> in Chinese I remember from my Chinese-American friends from childhood
> that gaga (spelling?) is "elder brother" and didi (spelling?) is
> "younger brother" right? I don't know the dialect although my friends'
> family were from Shanghai.

He was probably quoting Mandarin to you. In Hanyu
Pinyin it would be <ge1ge> and <di4di>.

In Shanghainese the sound is closer to [kuku].

<Ge1> 哥 is colloquial while <xiong1> 兄 is literary.
(but the compound <lao2 xiong1> is colloquial).
<Di4> 弟 is both colloquial and literary. <Ge1>
and <di4> is typically doubled unless they
are used in a compound.

>> for strangers (the "old" is to show respect)
>> though it is considered somewhat rustic these
>> days.
>>
>> The suffix -<xiong1> 兄 is an honorific for
>> people of the same generation/rank. The usage
>> goes back to Classical Chinese.
>>
>> In Cantonese gang leaders are addressed as
>> <dai3 go1> (大哥 first elder-brother） since
>> by joining a gang one is sworn into becoming
>> a brother of the other members.
>>
>>> in the legendary part of a chronicle of Turkish history (Selçukname)
>>> penned (this part derived from an earlier source Oğuzname) in the
>>> early 15th century making a play on words of the meaning "elder
>>> brother" and "lord, master", the chronicler says (justifying the
>>> supremacy of the legendary ancestor of the Ottomans) that "when the
>>> elder brother (ağa) is present the younger brother should not take
>>> upon the lordship (ağalık)"
>>
>> There is the Italian film "Padre Padrone".
>> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076517/
>
> that's the film about Sardinian language of the protagonist right?
> (and with the buggery scene).

Yes the film was about a Sardinian boy.

>>> a*gh*a / aqa is not found in Old Turkic but is found in Mongolian as
>>> aqa (*a:qa; Khlakha, in the modern standard, Khalkha a*kh*) "elder
>>> brother". Batu as the son of the eldest son of Chinggis (who had died
>>> prematurely just before Chinggis) had a priviliged position in the
>>> assembly (Kurultai) of princes as arbiter and gave up his claim for
>>> Great Khan in favour of Ögedey in return for the autonomy for his
>>> domains (ulus),
>>
>> I thought Temujin himself split the empire and named
>> Ögedei his successor before he died. Who would have
>> challenged Ögedei in the kurultai?
>>
>> Batu himself probably had no chance at all, given
>> questionable paternity of his father Jochi. (Temujin's
>> wife Börte was kidnapped by the Merkits and by the
>> time she was rescued, she was pregnant with Jochi.
>> Though Temujin has always treated Jochi as a son
>> others took a dimmer view.)
>
> the Tatar Khans (Kazan, Kazimov, Crimea) are descended from Jochi and
> probably there are descendants today. I wonder if a Y-Chrosome test
> would settle this question?

That would be very interesting.

Since both Möngke and Kublai were Tolui's sons,
the question of their ulus can be easily resolved.

Not sure about Güyük's sons.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 18, 8:29 am, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
> On 4/17/2013 10:20 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 7:41 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

> >> I guess it is ironic only to people to whom
> >> using kinship names as general forms
> >> of address or honorifics (for non-familial
> >> members) is utterly foreign.   Would anyone
> >> consider the use of "god-father" for a ruthless
> >> mobster "ironic"?
>
> > I don't know whether it's "ironic," but it's completely fictional. It
> > was invented by Mario Puzo.
>
> "Big Brother" is also completely fictional but
> somehow "ironic".

That's entirely different. Big Brother is a fictional character. Heads
of Mafia families are all too real; they were just never called
"Godfather."

> >> In English "Brother" is more or less restricted
> >> to religious orders or secret societies; or
> >> in the African American community.  However, I
> >> think this might be the exception rather than the
> >> norm.  I would that it is very common for cultures
> >> to use "brother" or "elder brother" as general
> >> forms of address or honorifics.
>
> > Eh? Where have you been the last couple of decades? Haven't you heard
> > "Bro"?
>
> Perhaps I should have said "... the African
> American community and their imitators"?  :-)

I don't think "Bro" is particularly A-A. And it's highly unlikely that
any such image was in the mind of the "Don't taze me, Bro!" guy, who
was in Florida.

> And fraternities typically have secrets.

?

> > It seems to have ousted "Dude" fairly thoroughly.
>
> Really?  There are some recent sightings, see
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude
>
> And thanks to "The Big Lebowski" by the Coens
> "dude" has acquired a new meaning and a new
> life.

That was quite a while ago.

This morning Brian Lehrer had a pair of Columbia professors, both
Indian, to discuss their new book on the economic situation in India.
A caller addressed "the two dudes," and she was met with considerable
merriment by both the Public Radio host and the guests.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:29:28 -0400, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>

>>>> unofficial) for a minor lord or master. in Turkey it is a?a (a*gh*a)
>>>> but a?a has remained for "lord,provincial bigwig" and the word for
>>>> "big brother" has been expanded into a?abey (colloquially [a:bei] >

>>>> abi, the final form being used amongst the family). during the Ottoman

>>>> period a?a was the title of minor court officials and eunuchs as well

>>>> as teh head of the Janissarires, though in the modernized army it came
>>>> to be the title of unlettered junior officers. Eastern Turkic has aqa
>>>> with the same meaning as "big brother", Turkmen has a:*gh*a. it has
>>>> been borrowed into Hindustani, hence the leader of the Nizari Ismailis
>>>> (the continuation of the medieval Assasins) being called the Agha
>>>> Khan. in the Modern Persian of Iran, Farsi (I don't know of
>>>> Afghanistan - Dari). a:*gh*a: (spelt a:qa: as in Eastern Turkic - Dari
>>>> does not pronounce <q> as *gh*) is used for "Mr." but the homophonous
>>>> a:*gh*a: (spelt with *gh*) means "eunuch" (from Ottoman Turkish).
>>>
>>> In English "Brother" is more or less restricted
>>> to religious orders or secret societies; or
>>> in the African American community. However, I
>>> think this might be the exception rather than the
>>> norm. I would that it is very common for cultures
>>> to use "brother" or "elder brother" as general
>>> forms of address or honorifics.
>>
>> Eh? Where have you been the last couple of decades? Haven't you heard
>> "Bro"?
>
>Perhaps I should have said "... the African
>American community and their imitators"? :-)
>
>And fraternities typically have secrets.
>

The fraternity I joined in college periodically sends me letters
announcing various things about the chapter at Indiana University.
They all start out "Dear Brother Anthony", which I find very annoying.
While "Anthony" is my legal name, I haven't been called that by anyone
except my parents since I was in grade school. "Brother" seems
ridiculous.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Yusuf B Gursey]

the family was calling the younger brother Didi while I knew him by
his English name and then they had explained. I had then inquired as
to what "elder brother" is in Chinese. the elder brother later spoke
Mandarin I know. he married a Chinese woman from Brunei and then they
told me there was a debate as to which dialect to raise their daughter
on or when hiring a nanny which dialect should she speak. I had told
you before that they tried to name their daughter based on a Chinese
naming algorithm. the girl ended up, according to the algorithm being
named "good time" in Chinese which was a problem I forgot how they
resolved.

the elder brother, Didi, the elder brother's future bride (then his
girlfriend) and me were in the same college together. his girlfriend
was reluctant to register for English class and he felt that that was
neccessary. he ordered me to register for her, and I went to a student
who was taking down names and I said "Mayfen Wang" (surname slightly
changed to protect privacy). the guy gave me a raised eyebrow and a
weird look, but took down the name.

>  [taode takto ~{LU5B~}]      NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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[me]

On Apr 14, 1:43 pm, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "Yusuf B Gursey" <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee6e624a-b72a-44ff...@o9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

from a few thousands of writers..there are now over 4 billion world
wide..and guess? you are traffic light with them on the next computer
generated glitch ! by the ways..any information has been used quite
clearly by advertising agencies..