i wish i can do...
chance
in the citation as follows?
http://www.ammado.com/company/ammado-asia-pacific/videos/2272
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Interesting. It took me a couple of listens before I was sure the
child was actually saying "can" at least some of the time. Standard
English requires "could" in this context of course, but "can" would
not be surprising in learner English, and indeed I would even be ready
to believe it was already common among younger native speakers. It's
that easy to overlook. Or is this a deliberate deviation by the
advertiser -- after all the child is wishing for things that, the ad
is telling us, it _can_ do...
Can you tell us more about the campaign and the advertiser and who the
ad is directed at?
Ross Clark
chance
<benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:85eee542-c2ce-47c1...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Sorry that I don't know anything about the entity.
Incidentally, how do you deal with a question like this?
'Why is it that 'can' can't be used after 'wish
while 'can ' may be used after 'hope',
despite the fact that 'hope' is synonymous
with 'wish'.
Ross Clark
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in messagenews:85eee542-c2ce-47c1...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
I don't think 'hope' is synonymous with 'wish', and I think looking at
their complements should give us at least some hints as to how they
differ. 'Wish' seems to require a counterfactual set of auxiliaries:
I wish it would rain
I wish I had answered
I wish I was a mole in the ground
[just to stick to song titles]
While 'hope' takes the plain ones
I hope it won't rain
I hope I answered right
I hope I'm a good grammarian
Just a start. Maybe the ad is trying to subvert the distinction, or
bridge the gap or something.
Ross Clark
LEE Sau Dan
chance> Incidentally, how do you deal with a question like this?
chance> 'Why is it that 'can' can't be used after 'wish while 'can '
chance> may be used after 'hope', despite the fact that 'hope' is
chance> synonymous with 'wish'.
"Hope" is definitely not synonymous with "wish". The former is for
something feasible. So, you use future or present tense in the
subordinate clause.
"Wish", OTOH, is for something unrealistic. You know that it is
basically impossible. Thus, the subjunctive mood is employed in the
subordinate clause. (i.e. "could", "were", "would do" instead of
"can", "is/am/are", "do/does").
(Of course, "I wish you a merry Christmas" or the like are exceptions:
these "wishes" are for something that is feasible.)
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
John Atkinson
>>>>>> "chance" == chance <cinc...@yahoo.co.kr> writes:
>
> chance> Incidentally, how do you deal with a question like this?
> chance> 'Why is it that 'can' can't be used after 'wish while 'can '
> chance> may be used after 'hope', despite the fact that 'hope' is
> chance> synonymous with 'wish'.
>
> "Hope" is definitely not synonymous with "wish". The former is for
> something feasible. So, you use future or present tense in the
> subordinate clause.
>
> "Wish", OTOH, is for something unrealistic. You know that it is
> basically impossible. Thus, the subjunctive mood is employed in the
> subordinate clause. (i.e. "could", "were", "would do" instead of
> "can", "is/am/are", "do/does").
>
> (Of course, "I wish you a merry Christmas" or the like are exceptions:
> these "wishes" are for something that is feasible.)
>>
subordinate clause is more or less ungrammatical:
? I wish that you have a merry Xmas
* I wish that you will have a merry Xmas.
So it's not simply a matter of whether or not it's
realistic/possible/feasible or not. Some verbs (like "hope") prefer the
indicative, some (like "wish") the "subjunctive", that's just the way
they are, you have to learn which group each individual verb belongs to.
John.
Harlan Messinger
What verb forms are used in German with "Ich wünsche, dass ..." and "Ich
hoffe, dass ..."? Or in Dutch with "wensen" and "hopen"?
chance
"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:7n799kF...@mid.individual.net...
Both use 'ich kann es tun'?
I suspect that 'can' and 'could' are used alternatively in the same sense
of 'to be able to' after 'wish', except for the fact that 'could' is relatively 'indirect',
compared to 'can' being used in relatively 'direct' way of speech.
jimbo...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
And moving off topic to pragmatics...
Can you make an indirect request with "I wish..."? If you can is
there an account on Austinian or Gricean terms? The scenario I'm
imagining would perhaps be a child wishfully looking at other children
with ice creams...."I wish *I* could have an ice cream".
LEE Sau Dan
John> Yes, but even in such cases, present or future indicative in
John> the subordinate clause is more or less ungrammatical:
John> ? I wish that you have a merry Xmas
Um... is this subjective or indicative?
Is this grammatical:
? I wish that he be happy.
? I wish that he come to this party.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> >>>>> "John" == John Atkinson <johna...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> John> Yes, but even in such cases, present or future indicative in
> John> the subordinate clause is more or less ungrammatical:
>
> John> ? I wish that you have a merry Xmas
>
> Um... is this subjective or indicative?
Presumably you meant "subjunctive."
Can't tell, because the difference is visible only in the 3sg. It is,
however, as John's question mark indicates, unacceptable. He could say
"I wish you to have a merry Xmas," but it would be most odd.
> Is this grammatical:
>
> ? I wish that he be happy.
> ? I wish that he come to this party.
No. "I wish him to be happy" and "I wish that he had come to this
party" and "I wish that he would come to the party: and "I hope that
he will be happy" and "I hope (that) he comes to the/this party."
Christian Weisgerber
> > So it's not simply a matter of whether or not it's
> > realistic/possible/feasible or not. Some verbs (like "hope") prefer the
> > indicative, some (like "wish") the "subjunctive", that's just the way
> > they are, you have to learn which group each individual verb belongs to.
>
> What verb forms are used in German with "Ich wï¿œnsche, dass ..." and "Ich
> hoffe, dass ..."? Or in Dutch with "wensen" and "hopen"?
Let's go a step back first. English "I wish I could ..." translates
as "ich wï¿œnschte, ich kï¿œnnte ..." in German, i.e., both clauses are
in the past subjunctive. More commonly, this is expressed with a
standalone conditional clause in the past subjunctive and supported
by some modal particle ("doch", "nur", etc):
"Kï¿œnnte ich doch nur ..."
"Hï¿œtte ich doch ... getan."
"Wenn ich nur ... kï¿œnnte."
"Ich wï¿œnsche/hoffe, dass ..." has a present tense verb in the
dependent clause, but it refers to a *future* action or result.
"Ich wï¿œnsche dir, dass du Erfolg hast."
"Ich wï¿œnsche mir, dass wir alle zusammenarbeiten."
("Wï¿œnschen" tends to take a dative object that makes the beneficiary
explicit.)
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Trond Engen
> Harlan Messinger <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> So it's not simply a matter of whether or not it's
>>> realistic/possible/feasible or not. Some verbs (like "hope")
>>> prefer the indicative, some (like "wish") the "subjunctive", that's
>>> just the way they are, you have to learn which group each
>>> individual verb belongs to.
>>
>> What verb forms are used in German with "Ich wï¿œnsche, dass ..." and
>> "Ich hoffe, dass ..."? Or in Dutch with "wensen" and "hopen"?
>
> Let's go a step back first. English "I wish I could ..." translates
> as "ich wï¿œnschte, ich kï¿œnnte ..." in German, i.e., both clauses are
> in the past subjunctive.
Norwegian dalls in between. The first verb is a past subjunctive
expressed by a modal construction, the second a simple past:
"Jeg skulle ï¿œnske jeg kunne ..."
> More commonly, this is expressed with a
> standalone conditional clause in the past subjunctive and supported
> by some modal particle ("doch", "nur", etc):
> "Kï¿œnnte ich doch nur ..."
> "Hï¿œtte ich doch ... getan."
> "Wenn ich nur ... kï¿œnnte."
Not more commonly, but still common:
"Kunne jeg bare ..."
"Hadde jeg nￜ bare ..."
"Om jeg nￜ kunne ..."
> "Ich wï¿œnsche/hoffe, dass ..." has a present tense verb in the
> dependent clause, but it refers to a *future* action or result.
> "Ich wï¿œnsche dir, dass du Erfolg hast."
> "Ich wï¿œnsche mir, dass wir alle zusammenarbeiten."
"Jeg ï¿œnsker at du gï¿œr"
This sounds stilted on several independent points. Rather:
"Jeg vil at du gￜr" "Jeg ￜnsker at du skal gￜ"
=>
"Jeg vil (at) du skal gￜ."
Best:
"Nￜ syns jeg (at) du skal gￜ"
> ("Wï¿œnschen" tends to take a dative object that makes the beneficiary
> explicit.)
This is possible in other constructions:
"Jeg ￜnsker deg alt godt pￜ dagen og i framtida"
"Jeg ï¿œnsker meg bï¿œker til jul"
--
Trond Engen
benl...@ihug.co.nz
wrote:
> there an account on Austinian or Gricean terms? The scenario I'm
> imagining would perhaps be a child wishfully looking at other children
> with ice creams...."I wish *I* could have an ice cream".
I think more common is "I wish you would...(get a haircut/make some
positive suggestions/stop moving the furniture)". In keeping with the
general unreality of "wish" structures, this seems to carry the
suggestion that compliance with the request is unlikely.
Ross Clark
chance
"CDB" <belle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:hem6im$n9c$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Richard Chambers wrote:
>> "chance" asked
>>
>>> What do yo mkae of 'I wish I can do...' repeated in the citation as
>>> follows?
>>>
>>> http://www.ammado.com/company/ammado-asia-pacific/videos/2272
>>
>> able to ...".
>
> What's interesting is that the girl's accent appears to be that of a
> native BrE speaker. Maybe she has picked up the idiom living abroad,
> or maybe the closeness of sound between "c'd do" and "c'n do" (I had
> to listen closely to some parts of the clip to be sure she was saying
> "c'n") is easing yet another step away from the British use of the
> subjunctive.
Whether it is limited to the British use of the subjunctive or not,
I wonder if there was'nt in the first place something wrong
with the parting of verb forms into the indicative, subjunctive
and imperative mood. The past form of a verb intrinsically denotes
an indirect way of expressing something, irrespective of its function
of the tense past. For example, 'would' in the modal usage
has nothing to do with the past in tense, albeit it denotes
an indirect way of speech, compared to the direct way of speech,
represented by 'will', if it were.
Have you ever recently watched by any chance
'Dibo' of Playhouse Disney?
DIbo invariably asks, 'What is your wish?'
Then, Annie, Crow, Bunny or Ello answers,
'I wish I can...' or something along the line,
more often than not.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Whether it is limited to the British use of the subjunctive or not,
> I wonder if there was'nt in the first place something wrong
> with the parting of verb forms into the indicative, subjunctive
> and imperative mood.
If there was something wrong with the inflection of verbs to indicate
mood (to the extent that it ever did and still does), it wouldn't have
happened.
> The past form of a verb intrinsically denotes
> an indirect way of expressing something, irrespective of its function
> of the tense past.
I don't understand this, and I doubt that you do. The past tense
ordinarily indicates that an event occurred in the past. It may in
certain inflections be identical with other forms in other moods, but
then it isn't really the form of the past tense -- it indicates
something other than the past tense even though it has the same form
as the past tense. The "were" of "If I were king ..." is in the same
form as the plural past tense of "be," but it is the singular and
plural of the subjunctive, and it is not necessarily in the past tense
at all.
This is clearer in more inflected languages, in which there are many
cases when forms are identical but usages differ.
> For example, 'would' in the modal usage
> has nothing to do with the past in tense, albeit it denotes
> an indirect way of speech, compared to the direct way of speech,
> represented by 'will', if it were.
To the best of my knowlege, it has nothing to do with direct vs.
indirect. Again, this makes no sense to me.
> Have you ever recently watched by any chance
> 'Dibo' of Playhouse Disney?
No. Can't say I've missed it.
>
> DIbo invariably asks, 'What is your wish?'
> Then, Annie, Crow, Bunny or Ello answers,
> 'I wish I can...' or something along the line,
> more often than not.
I can't deny this, since I have never seen the show. But I have my
doubts.
--
Bob Lieblich
Doing his stretching exercises
chance
"Robert Lieblich" <r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4B0F5D50...@yahoo.com...
Remember when I have desisted from beating the dead horse.
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:92c0bc0c-2172-4a73...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Nov 26, 10:19�am, LEE Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
> wrote:
[...]
>> Is this grammatical:
>> � �? I wish that he be happy.
>> � �? I wish that he come to this party.
> No.
They're grammatical, but a bit old-fashioned. For instance:
'If you esteem this man, execrate him; if you do not wish
that he be punished through all eternity, be terrified.'
(Augustine, Letter 151, trans. Daniel-James Thornton)
'XXVI. Likewise, if any man or woman should kidnap a Jewish
child we wish that he be punished as a thief.' (The Charter
of the Jews of the Duchy of Austria July 1, 1244 CE, taken
from Jacob Marcus, The Jew in the Medieval World: A
Sourcebook, 315-1791, (New York: JPS, 1938), 28-33.)
'... so I wish that he [Richard] be taken to Bayeux as
quickly as possible; and I wish that he be educated with
great care under your tutelage, Botho, ...' (Dudo of St
Quentin, History of the Normans, tr. E. Christiansen
(Woodbridge, 1998))
'Above all I wish that he be remembered as one wonderful
spiritual being amongst all others in our one family of
man.' (A comment at
<http://meviomusic.mevio.com/2009/06/26/new-details-about-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-death-emerge/>.)
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:32:31 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
So you have no examples with an adjective (happy)? no examples not in
the passive voice (come)?
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:e353e154-e5c4-4f6f...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> On Dec 4, 5:55�pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:32:31 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in
>> <news:92c0bc0c-2172-4a73...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
>> in sci.lang:
>>> On Nov 26, 10:19�am, LEE Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
>>> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Is this grammatical:
>>>> � �? I wish that he be happy.
>>>> � �? I wish that he come to this party.
>>> No.
>> They're grammatical, but a bit old-fashioned. �For instance:
[...]
> So you have no examples with an adjective (happy)? no
> examples not in the passive voice (come)?
I simply grabbed the first examples that came to hand and
didn't look much further, though I believe that I did also
find one or two not in the passive voice. I also found some
examples in one or more New Englishes. But the real point
is that I'd not even have bothered to look had I considered
the sentences clearly ungrammatical.
Brian