Etymology of "race"
Peter T. Daniels
Arabic /ra's/ 'head', not implausibly since the earliest attestations in
European languages are from Iberian languages in the 13th century or so;
but Anglist lexicographers prefer to list the etymology as uncertain,
not going back beyond either a French or Italian origin of the English
form.
Has there been a refutation of Oberhummer's article in the 1928 Anzeiger
of the Akademie der Wissenschaften, Vienna, phil.-hist. Klasse? (Those
are the data you need to find it in an American library, and it had a
professional at NYPL puzzled for a good 15 minutes trying to find it!)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Harlan Messinger
>German lexicographers seem to have agreed that "race"/"Rasse" comes from
>Arabic /ra's/ 'head', not implausibly since the earliest attestations in
>European languages are from Iberian languages in the 13th century or so;
>but Anglist lexicographers prefer to list the etymology as uncertain,
>not going back beyond either a French or Italian origin of the English
>form.
Interesting, because two of the three (English) references on my shelf
trace it "possibly" back to Latin "ratio", an account or a species,
and a third back to Latin "generatio", generation.
--
Harlan Messinger
There are no Zs in my actual e-mail address.
Johan Vandewalle
Harlan Messinger schreef:
van Dale's "Etymologisch woordenboek", Utrecht/Antwerpen 1991, gives four
possible etymologies four Dutch "ras" (< French "race") (1) Ar. "ra's", (2)
Lat. "ratio" (3) Lat. "radix" (4) related to Althochdeutsch "reiza",which
according to De Vries' Etymologisch woordenboek, Utrecht/Antwerpen 1973, is
Langobardisch "raiza" (line) for Lat. "lingua sanguinis" (line of the blood)
"raiza" seems to be related to the Althochdeutsch verb "rizan", Hochdeutsch
"reissen", the English verb "to write",...
Johan Vandewalle
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Messinger) wrote:
>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>German lexicographers seem to have agreed that "race"/"Rasse" comes from
>>Arabic /ra's/ 'head', not implausibly since the earliest attestations in
>>European languages are from Iberian languages in the 13th century or so;
>>but Anglist lexicographers prefer to list the etymology as uncertain,
>>not going back beyond either a French or Italian origin of the English
>>form.
>
>Interesting, because two of the three (English) references on my shelf
>trace it "possibly" back to Latin "ratio", an account or a species,
>and a third back to Latin "generatio", generation.
My Dutch et. dict. (de Vries/Tollenaere) also suggests ratio ~>
It. razza (14th c.) > OProv. rassa (1200) > Fr. race (c. 1490).
Gómez de Silva's Spanish et. dict. suggests It. la razza <
l'arazz < OFr. haraz, haras, harace "group of stallions and mares
kept for breeding". Unless razza < *ratia ~ ratio.
I wonder what Corominas says.
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Harlan Messinger schreef:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> > >German lexicographers seem to have agreed that "race"/"Rasse" comes from
> > >Arabic /ra's/ 'head', not implausibly since the earliest attestations in
> > >European languages are from Iberian languages in the 13th century or so;
> > >but Anglist lexicographers prefer to list the etymology as uncertain,
> > >not going back beyond either a French or Italian origin of the English
> > >form.
> >
> > Interesting, because two of the three (English) references on my shelf
> > trace it "possibly" back to Latin "ratio", an account or a species,
> > and a third back to Latin "generatio", generation.
> >
>
> possible etymologies four Dutch "ras" (< French "race") (1) Ar. "ra's", (2)
> Lat. "ratio" (3) Lat. "radix" (4) related to Althochdeutsch "reiza",which
> according to De Vries' Etymologisch woordenboek, Utrecht/Antwerpen 1973, is
> Langobardisch "raiza" (line) for Lat. "lingua sanguinis" (line of the blood)
Oberhummer dismisses (4) out of hand and doesn't like (2) or (3) much,
either. I'm trying to find reasons why (1) isn't generally accepted,
since it's found in a number of early (1890s) Romanist references that
he relies on.
> "raiza" seems to be related to the Althochdeutsch verb "rizan", Hochdeutsch
> "reissen", the English verb "to write",...
J. A. Rea
Catalan one, he says in his _Breve..._
"raza...raro hasta fin s. xvi. Probte. forma semiculta del lat. _ratio_
...partendo de su sentido...especio"
John
Ki semenat ispinaza, non andet iskultsu!
J. A. Rea ja...@ukcc.uky.edu
Endesch
Christopher Schmidt
Romanisches Etymologisches Woerterbuch (1935) by Meyer-Luebcke suggests:
generatio, -one "Zeugung" [It. razza (-> frz. race, sp. raza), "Rasse",
friaul. garnatsje, afrz. generace], kat. generació "Volkshaufe", pg. geracao.
Duden says that German "Rasse" was borrowed from French "race" which came from
Italial "razza" which is unclear.
But if there are really forms like Old French generace and Catalan generació
meaning "race", wouldn't it be most probable that "race" derives from Latin
"generatio"?
Chris
Christopher Schmidt
Peter T. Daniels
I imagine everyone got it twice, dated Mon 7:01 and Wed 5:35.
Oberhummer says Meyer-Lübke is wrong.
And getting it from Italian razza doesn't help with the origin of razza,
which sources before Oberhummer connected with Iberian forms identical
with Arabic ra's except without the hamza (glottal stop). Semantically
the move is from numerical classifier (= 'head of cattle') to 'variety'.
Christopher Schmidt
"Peter T. Daniels" schrieb:
>
> Oberhummer says Meyer-Lübke is wrong.
>
On what grounds? I mean is there an Old-French word like "generace" or
is there not?
>
> And getting it from Italian razza doesn't help with the origin of razza,
> which sources before Oberhummer connected with Iberian forms identical
> with Arabic ra's except without the hamza (glottal stop). Semantically
> the move is from numerical classifier (= 'head of cattle') to 'variety'.
>
Maybe the Duden is not the real aX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ris
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" schrieb:
>
> >
> > Oberhummer says Meyer-Lübke is wrong.
> >
>
> On what grounds? I mean is there an Old-French word like "generace" or
> is there not?
"Erster zu nehmen ist jedenfalls die von Meyer-Lübke, Rom. Etym. Wört.
1911, S. 278 versuchte Zurückführung auf _generatio_, afz. _generace_,
was auch dem im Französischen vorherrschended Sinn entsprechen würde.
Nur fehlt die Entwicklungsreihe und dei Berücksichtigung der Tatsache,
daß das Wort zwar im Französischen seit 1512 nachweisbar \Bei Jehan Le
Maire nach Hatzfeld a.a.O.\ ist, aber wesentlich früher in den
südromanischen Sprachen erscheint. Diese bilden die Brücke für den
wahren Ursprung, der uns nach Afrika und Arabien führt. In seinter
Abhandlung ,Die arabischen Laute im Spanischen` führt G. Baist \Roman.
Forsch. IV 1891, S. 415; übernommen von Kluge, Etym. Wört. u. ,Rasse`.\
span. _raza_, port. _raça_ auf arab. _raz_ Haupt, Anfang zurück. Die
eigentliche kastilische Form, sagt Baist, ist _raz_, welche sich als die
ältere erweist, und das dem Geschlecht zulieb erweiterete _raza_. Es ist
der abstrakte Inhalt des arabischen Wortes Anfang, Ursprung, Kopf, und
dem Viehhandel an der Grenze entnommen. Ich möchte diese Ableitung trotz
der Bedenken von Meyer-Lübke aufrechterhalten, weil die Geschichte des
Sprachgebrauches und die geographische Beziehungen diesen Weg weisen,
auch die lautliche Entwicklung völlig klar zu liegen scheint."
> > And getting it from Italian razza doesn't help with the origin of razza,
> > which sources before Oberhummer connected with Iberian forms identical
> > with Arabic ra's except without the hamza (glottal stop). Semantically
> > the move is from numerical classifier (= 'head of cattle') to 'variety'.
> >
>
> Maybe the Duden is not the real aX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ris
I beg your pardon?
Christopher Schmidt
"Peter T. Daniels" schrieb:
> Christopher Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" schrieb:
> >
> > >
> > > Oberhummer says Meyer-Lübke is wrong.
> > >
> >
> > On what grounds? I mean is there an Old-French word like "generace" or
> > is there not?
>
> "Erster zu nehmen ist jedenfalls die von Meyer-Lübke, Rom. Etym. Wört.
> 1911, S. 278 versuchte Zurückführung auf _generatio_, afz. _generace_,
> was auch dem im Französischen vorherrschended Sinn entsprechen würde. [rest snipped]
Einverstanden. Afrz. "generace" in der Bedeutung "Rasse" waere also Volksetymologie?
Could it also be possible that French "race" and Italian "razza" derive from different
languages? Otherwise "generace" ought to be "Volksetymologie", oughtn't it?
>
> > Maybe the Duden is not the real aX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ris
>
> I beg your pardon?
This time it wasn't the fault of my NNTP server but of my mail program
(technology...;-)): the line should actually say:
/quote
Maybe the Duden is not the real authority here
Chris
/unquote
Chris (I hope no corrupted lines this time)
Peter T. Daniels
> > "Erster zu nehmen ist jedenfalls die von Meyer-Lübke, Rom. Etym. Wört.
> > 1911, S. 278 versuchte Zurückführung auf _generatio_, afz. _generace_,
> > was auch dem im Französischen vorherrschended Sinn entsprechen würde. [rest snipped]
>
> Einverstanden. Afrz. "generace" in der Bedeutung "Rasse" waere also Volksetymologie?
> Could it also be possible that French "race" and Italian "razza" derive from different
> languages? Otherwise "generace" ought to be "Volksetymologie", oughtn't it?
But Afrz. "generace" does NOT occur in the meaning "Rasse" -- the
(modern) meaning didn't exist until the late 17th century:
"Auf die Varietäten des Menschengeschlechtes angewendet finde ich es
zuerst in einem anonymen Beitrag über ,les différentes espèces ou races
d'homme` im Journal des Savans 1684, S. 135-140, dann bei Voltaire,
Buffon usw."
> > > Maybe the Duden is not the real aX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ris
> >
> > I beg your pardon?
>
> This time it wasn't the fault of my NNTP server but of my mail program
> (technology...;-)): the line should actually say:
>
> /quote
> Maybe the Duden is not the real authority here
But no one cited the Duden ...
> Chris (I hope no corrupted lines this time)
Christopher Schmidt
"Peter T. Daniels" schrieb:
>
> But Afrz. "generace" does NOT occur in the meaning "Rasse" -- the
> (modern) meaning didn't exist until the late 17th century:
>
> "Auf die Varietäten des Menschengeschlechtes angewendet finde ich es
> zuerst in einem anonymen Beitrag über ,les différentes espèces ou races
> d'homme` im Journal des Savans 1684, S. 135-140, dann bei Voltaire,
> Buffon usw."
>
Ueberzeugt. REW really seems to be wrong...
> But no one cited the Duden ...
>
I did. (Etymologie-Duden to be precise)
Chris