Origin of Ge. saberdzneti / berdz
Nikos Sarantakos
The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
Safrangeti for France).
My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
TIA
N. Sarantakos
Craoi...@gmail.com
> However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> Safrangeti for France).
Sakartvelo, actually. The stem is -kartvel- and the name of the
country is created with the circumfix sa-...-o, If my elementary
Georgian serves me, sa-...-eti is another circumfix, and that would
leave -n- as part of the stem, thus -berdzn-.
You will find more information about Georgian grammar on www.armazi.com,
if the site isn't down at the moment.
The only thing I can think of is a connection with the name of the
modern town of Vergina.
>
> Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> pronounced)
Uh, to me it seems that that is a phonetic representation of the name,
so it should be obvious how it is pronounced, if you are familiar with
the International Phonetic Alphabet.
> and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
That is probable, yes.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> You will find more information about Georgian grammar onwww.armazi.com,
> if the site isn't down at the moment.
სა- — -ეთ sa- — -et
(the -i is simply something that is routinely added to final root
consonants)
and it gives the following examples:
ფრანგი prang-i ('Frenchman') → საფრანგეთი sa-prang-et-i ('France'),
ბერძენი berdzen-i ('Greek') → საბერძნეთი sa-berdzn-et-i ('Greece')
Thus, the original stem is berdzen.
Franz Gnaedinger
> Hi all
>
> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
> Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> Safrangeti for France).
>
> My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
A good moment to have a look at the origin of the
Greeks. I believe they were miners. The very ancient
word for the Underworld was KAL, preserved in
Hel-lenes, Kel-toi, Cel-ts, Gal-lia, Hel-vetii, referring
to mines. KAL is also present in hell German Hölle.
The once beautiful Underworld KAL turned into a hell
with the labor of mining. The Celts were miners,
and most of the lower classes labored in mines.
The importance of metals is also outlined by Homer
in the Odyssey. Beautiful Helen of the white arms
is not really a woman, she is a metal, the symbol of
tin, by then very rare and precious, coming from the
Ore Mountains in Middle Europe and from Central
Asia, in either way bound to pass Troy ... Helen's
husband xanthos Menelaos is the symbol of copper,
the color xanthos covering all hues of copper ore,
yellow, brown, red. Their daughter, lovely Hermione
who resembled golden Aphrodite, is the symbol of
bronze, alloy of copper and tin, of a golden shine
when freshly cast. Menelaos had a slave mistress
who is a symbol of andrasit, a natural alloy of tinc
and copper - tinc in enslaved form, as it were
(by then found in the Troas), and their son, strong
late come Megapenthes, is the symbol of brass,
harder than bronze, and arriving late in the
family of metals. Now for the term Greeks, which,
you say, comes from Graikoi. In this word I see
the root GRA for a cave with painted walls (like
for example Lascaux and Altamira). In the metal
era, this word shifted, the decoration of the walls
were now the natural minerals and metals, the
veins of copper and so on, hinting again at the
origin of the Greeks. And now Berz: in this word
I recognize a derivative of BIR for fur, especially
bear fur. So I dare propose the original Greeks
were rather wild chaps wearing bear skins and
laboring in mines between Anatolia and Central
Asia, came to Thessali in the fourth millennium
BC and reached the Argolis in around 2 800 BC.
Craoi...@gmail.com
who read and comment the other threads are interested in real answers,
not in lunatic screeds.
Franz Gnaedinger
If I should define the original home of the Greeks
in geographical terms I'd point to the region south
of the Aral Sea, today the Kara-Kalpak Autonomous
Republik, NW Uzbekistan, neighbor of Tadzhikistan
of the tin mines. On the river Amu-Darja, perhaps
near the former southern shore of the Aral Sea, was
the Mesolithic and Neolithic settlement of Dzanbas-
Kale. The region housed the later Keltemmar culture.
Note Kal- and Kel- as derivatives of KAL. If Kara-
Kalpak and Aral are ancient, we may interpret them
as follows: CA AAR RAA --- sky (ca) air (aar) light
(raa), the heavenly one composed of air and light //
AAR RAA ) or AAR RAA L --- the Lord (clicking l)
composed of air and light // KAL PAC --- mines
(kal in a shifted sense) horses (pac), a reference
to the riches of the region. The presence of the
heavenly Lord composed of air and light is a strong
hint at Göbekli Tepe and the big limestone ring that
shows the heavenly Lord ex negativo, actually made
of air and light: www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG
We know him in the form of the Greek Ouranos.
The lineage would then be:
AAR RAA NOS --- mind (nos) of the one
composed of air (aar) and light (raa), Ouranos
NOS AAR RAA --- he who follows the mind of
the one composed of air and light, believer in
NOS AAR RAA Ouranos, Noah in the Bible
ShA PAD --- ruler (sha) activity of feet (pad),
the wandering ruler, Japhet in the Bible, son
of Noah
TYR --- he who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, Tirsos in the Bible, Middle
Helladic Sseyr, Doric Sseus, Homeric Zeus,
founder of the lineage Zeus Arkeisios Laertes
Odysseus Telemachos
Zeus may then keep a faint memory of a deified
historical person, founding father of the Greeks,
perhaps also the founder of Dzanbas-Kale?
Craoi...@gmail.com
interested in the Georgian word for Greek. You should have the good
manners not to use it as a pretext for spamming the group with
irrelevant stupidities.
Harlan Messinger
> On Oct 16, 8:01 am, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
>> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
>> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
>> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
>> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
>> Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>>
>> However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
>> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
>> and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
>> Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
>> Safrangeti for France).
>>
>> My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> A good moment to have a look at the origin of the
> Greeks. I believe they were miners.
Sure, just like the Greeks today are plumbers, the Hungarians are
teachers, and the Swedes are bus drivers. It works very well when an
entire civilization is engaged in one non-subsistence occupation. Of
course, if a Swede needs something done other than having a bus driven
or a ride somewhere, he's out of luck, but that's a minor consideration.
Paul J Kriha
If he meant they were _originally_ _minors_ before they grew up,
he would be right.
pjk
Franz Gnaedinger
sharing ideas, not in a prolonged kindergarten
for playground bullies coming to age and lacking
a task in life.
I am very happy with my insight from this morning,
as I wondered since a long time where exactly
in the Eurasian steppes the Greeks came from.
My best bet until now was from somewhere at the
northern base of the Iranian plateau, but my new
one allows to look out for archaeological parallels,
although it might be a challenge to find reliable
information on the archaeology of that region.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> We are here in a scientific forum destined for
> sharing ideas, not in a prolonged kindergarten
> for playground bullies coming to age and lacking
> a task in life.
Quite so. So, why are you bullying people here? The original poster
asked a bona fide question. I have studied Georgian for some time now,
and gave him a bona fide answer. You, instead, come here spewing your
irrelevant crap. You are like a small child who cannot let anybody
else have a meaningful conversation in which you cannot participate.
> I am very happy with my insight from this morning,
Nobody else is happy with your "insights". Now, go back to your own
Magdalenian thread.
Harlan Messinger
> We are here in a scientific forum destined for
> sharing ideas,
Scientific ideas, not stuff you made up.
> not in a prolonged kindergarten
> for playground bullies coming to age and lacking
> a task in life.
[snip]
> I am very happy with my insight from this morning,
> as I wondered since a long time where exactly
> in the Eurasian steppes the Greeks came from.
And you think that making stuff up answers the question?
Craoi...@gmail.com
> information on the archaeology of that region.
If you are interested in information on the archaeology of the
Caucasus, your best bet is to learn Georgian and Armenian. Helmut
Buske Verlag has published a "Lehrbuch der georgischen Sprache" by Lia
Abuladze and Andreas Ludden, ISBN 978-3-87548-367-3, as well as a
"Lehrbuch der armenischen Sprache", by Margret Eggenstein-Harutunian,
ISBN 978-3-87548-495-3.
Once you master the languages, I am sure you'll find ways to order
archaeological works from Georgia and Armenia.
Trond Engen
It's just a minor mistake, then?
--
Trond Engen
- mine or mistaken?
Peter T. Daniels
> I am very happy with my insight from this morning,
> as I wondered since a long time where exactly
> in the Eurasian steppes the Greeks came from.
> My best bet until now was from somewhere at the
> northern base of the Iranian plateau, but my new
> one allows to look out for archaeological parallels,
> although it might be a challenge to find reliable
> information on the archaeology of that region.
Why? Have you overlooked twice my reference to Elena Kuzmina's *Origin
of the Indo-Iranians*, edited and translated by J. P. Mallory (Brill
2007)?
Peter T. Daniels
Or, he could consult the existing archeological literature in Western
languages (including Russian).
Craoi...@gmail.com
He has admitted that he knows as little Russian as Armenian or
Georgian.
Of course, he would find a lot of interesting material, if he could be
bothered to learn the language.
Craoi...@gmail.com
And as regards learning Russian, Buske has lots of fine learning
materials for it, too.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Hi all
>
> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
ottoman purists objected to Yunanistan becasue in arabic al-yu:na:n
was already a place name, apparent in turkish in YunanlI meaning "from
Yunan". actually turkish has two words one YunanlI meaning a citizen
of Greece and Rum meaning a greek from Turkey or Cyprus or some other
place. ru:m is still found in some expressions like ka:thu:likiyy
ru:miyy for Greek (not Roman, i.e. Latin rite, but Greek rite,
recognizing the Pope) Catholic
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 16, 2:01 am, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi all
>
> > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> > Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> > second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> > Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
>
> ottoman purists objected to Yunanistan becasue in arabic al-yu:na:n
> was already a place name, apparent in turkish in YunanlI meaning "from
> Yunan". actually turkish has two words one YunanlI meaning a citizen
> of Greece and Rum meaning a greek from Turkey or Cyprus or some other
> place. ru:m is still found in some expressions like ka:thu:likiyy
ka:*th*u:li:kiyy
> ru:miyy for Greek (not Roman, i.e. Latin rite, but Greek rite,
> recognizing the Pope) Catholic
>
arabic has yet a third term, 'i*gh*ri:qiyy meaning a greek person of
antiquity (the pre-Byzantine period)
>
>
> > Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> > Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> > Safrangeti for France).
>
> > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> > where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> > exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> > pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> > TIA
> > N. Sarantakos- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Franz Gnaedinger
The Georgian name of Berdz for the Greeks
may be a hint at the Greeks wearing bear skins,
I said in my first reply. Now considering the
Homeric lineage Zeus Arkeisios Laertes ...
we can perhaps glean a little more information.
TYR Biblical Tiras Middle Helladic Sseyr Doric
Sseus Homeric Zeus keeps a memory of the
hypothetical early Greeks in the region south
of the Aral Sea. Lord Laertes the gardener is
identical with Eponymous Tiryns on the Tiryns
disc, a Middle Helladic ruler of Tiryns, in a more
general sense of the Argolis and the Peloponnese.
Now what about Arkeisios? Magdalenian ARK
means bear, consider Greek arktos Latin ursus.
This meets with what I said about Berdz. In my
archaeological and historical atlas I find a place
called Byrc in Georgia, where the region Cholchis
in the east and the region Iberia (I-ber-ia) in
central Georgia are meeting. Was this the
home of Arkeisios? If so, the early Greeks,
wandering, followed the southern shore of the
Caspian Sea and then passed through Georgia,
say, in the fourth millennium BC. Homer says
the Greeks once had been neighbors of Polyphem.
Polyphem is a symbol of Troy, but also of the
Hittites, and of Anatolia in general. The Armenians
know a mythological figure Torc, a one-eyed giant
who drove pirates away by throwing boulders
at them from an elevated position - much like
Polyphem, only that Torc is a positive figure.
Now Georgia _is_ the neighbor of Armenia.
Also the Titans fit in the Caucasus and Anti-
Caucasus. Atlas who carried the weight of the
heavens on neck and shoulders may well have
been present in the majestic Elbrus. Prometheus
brought fire to the humans, not just the ordinary
fire but the fire melting metals, first generated
in Anatolia and Georgia using winds falling
down steep mountain slopes. As for bears:
a strongly weathered bear sculpture holding
a human skull (of stone) between the front paws
was found in Göbekli Tepe, presumably having
an apotropaic function, protecting the skull
of a dead ruler. This would explain the bear
aspect of Arkeisios or the Berdz as bear people
in Georgia: fiercly protecting their own. Consider
also Dimini in Thessaly, and later Mykenae,
showing the same will of protection.
Paul J Kriha
> - mine or mistaken?
More like minor's mistake, a pickaxe throught the foot or suchlike.
pjk
Craoi...@gmail.com
"berdzen" for Greek? As you certainly know, Georgian vocabulary has
been influenced by Arabic to no small extent.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> The Georgian name of Berdz for the Greeks
Except that it is not berdz, it is berdzen - the -n- is part of the
stem.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Why? Have you overlooked twice my reference to Elena Kuzmina's *Origin
> of the Indo-Iranians*, edited and translated by J. P. Mallory (Brill
> 2007)?
Does she say anything about Göbekli Tepe?
We don't have that book in the library, only her
book on the origin of the Silk Road (2008,
edited by Mair). If Göbekli Tepe is not mentioned
in the book, however, I won't look out for it.
Funny how scientific truth is being manipulated
in this thread and group. Panu Petteri Höglund
alias craoibhin66 alias he as his own good friend
and pupil Sean Connor soconn1 aliass John
Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk killrates my messages
and gives himself an uprating. Fine understanding
of the sciences, that. One must really have attended
three universities to get a such wonderful idea of
the sciences and of conducting a scientific discussion.
Nothing in the noggin than pudding
(dat Panu Petteri Höglund).
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> Funny how scientific truth is being manipulated
> in this thread and group. Panu Petteri Höglund
> alias craoibhin66 alias he as his own good friend
> and pupil Sean Connor soconn1 aliass John
> Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk killrates my messages
Franz. The original poster asked quite nicely a question. I tried to
answer it quite nicely according to my own lights. i have tried to
learn Georgian for some time now, so I had at least some dim lights.
You are ignorant and innocent of both Georgian, Armenian, and Russian,
yet you pose as an expert.
What did you do? Nothing, except taking it as a pretext to tout your
own theories, which are not the least related to the original poster's
question. Yet you have the bad manners to accuse me of "manipulating
scientific truth".
You are such a bad man there is no word for it.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Is there no word in Arabic or Turkish that could explain the Georgian
no.
Jack Campin - bogus address
> three groups.
> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
No idea, but is the Latvian surname "Barzdin" related?
Here's someone with that name::
http://www.lumii.lv/Pages/MII_staff/jbarzdin.html
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
Franz Gnaedinger
Nikolai Sarantakos, obviously Greek, asked for
the possible meaning of the Georgian word or
root for Greek, namely -berdz-. I had an intuition,
went for another piece of work, found confirmation,
and gave an answer that goes way beyond the
above question: -berdz- may be akin to bear
and Arkeisios Ark- arktos ursus, the second
one in Homer's lineage Zeus Arkeisios Laertes
Odysseus Telemachos. Arkeisios would have
led the early Greeks from the region south of
the Aral Sea (southern part of the Andronovo
culture) along the southern shore of the Caspian
Sea, through the Caucasus, to Thessaly (Dimini)
and finally the Peloponnese (Tiryns) - more of
a mythical figure, combining several historical
ones. The reference to a bear in his name
would be an indication of his strength, and
of his will to defend his own. He and his tribe
must have left a lasting impression in Georgia,
so that the Greeks are still named for bears,
in a derivative of PIE *bher- that comes from
a still older Magdalenian word BIR meaning fur.
So far my answer, a concise version will later
be published in my Magdalenian thread.
Andrew Woode
> Hi all
>
> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> Safrangeti for France).
>
>
> where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> TIA
> N. Sarantakos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks currently claims that
"the Greeks are called ბერძენი berdzeni, deriving from the Georgian
word for "wise," a name commonly attributed to the notion that
philosophy was born in Greece". It footnotes this assertion with
reference (apparently) to:
Rapp SH, J. (Oct. - Dec., 2000). Sumbat Davitis-dze and the
Vocabulary of Political Authority in the Era of Georgian Unification.
Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 4, pp. 570–
576.
This is on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/606617), but I do not have
access to the full text.
Passed on for information only: since my knowledge of Georgian is
confined to the alphabet, I have no way of testing the plausibility of
the above.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On 16 Oct, 07:01, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi all
>
> > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> > Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> > second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> > Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
> > Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> > Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> > Safrangeti for France).
>
> > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> > where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> > exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> > pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> > TIA
> > N. Sarantakos
>
> "the Greeks are called ბერძენი berdzeni, deriving from the Georgian
> word for "wise," a name commonly attributed to the notion that
> philosophy was born in Greece". It footnotes this assertion with
> reference (apparently) to:
>
> Rapp SH, J. (Oct. - Dec., 2000). Sumbat Davitis-dze and the
> Vocabulary of Political Authority in the Era of Georgian Unification.
> Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 4, pp. 570–
> 576.
>
> This is on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/606617), but I do not have
> access to the full text.
>
> Passed on for information only: since my knowledge of Georgian is
> confined to the alphabet, I have no way of testing the plausibility of
> the above.
Rapp's footnote 44:
Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
Saberdznet'i by the Georgians. [The ' represents a superscript c]
Peter T. Daniels
> On Oct 20, 1:19 am, Andrew Woode <andrew_wo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 16 Oct, 07:01, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
> > > Hi all
>
> > > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > > three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> > > Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> > > second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> > > Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
> > > Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> > > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > > and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> > > Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> > > Safrangeti for France).
>
> > > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > > Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> > > where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> > > exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> > > pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> > > TIA
> > > N. Sarantakos
>
> > "the Greeks are called ბერძენი berdzeni, deriving from the Georgian
> > word for "wise," a name commonly attributed to the notion that
> > philosophy was born in Greece". It footnotes this assertion with
> > reference (apparently) to:
>
> > Rapp SH, J. (Oct. - Dec., 2000). Sumbat Davitis-dze and the
> > Vocabulary of Political Authority in the Era of Georgian Unification.
> > Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 4, pp. 570–
> > 576.
>
> > This is on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/606617), but I do not have
> > access to the full text.
>
> > Passed on for information only: since my knowledge of Georgian is
> > confined to the alphabet, I have no way of testing the plausibility of
> > the above.
>
> Rapp's footnote 44:
>
> Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
> Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
> berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
> Saberdznet'i by the Georgians. [The ' represents a superscript c]
Which represents aspiration -- I only recently learned that the use of
'opening single quote' = 'turned comma' to mark aspiration is nothing
more than an imitation of the Greek rough breathing. (mnemonic!)
Trond Engen
> On Oct 20, 1:19 am, Andrew Woode <andrew_wo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16 Oct, 07:01, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>>
>>> However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
>>> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
>>> and how this is declined.
>>
>> Rapp SH, J. (Oct. - Dec., 2000). Sumbat Davitis-dze and the
>> Vocabulary of Political Authority in the Era of Georgian
>> Unification.
>> Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 4, pp. 570–
>> 576.
>>
>> This is on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/606617), but I do not have
>> access to the full text.
>
> Rapp's footnote 44:
>
> Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
> Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
> berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
> Saberdznet'i by the Georgians. [The ' represents a superscript c]
Could 'berdzen' be a folk etymology from Byzantion?
--
Trond Engen
- har forlotte Berdzen for bestandig
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
>
> Which represents aspiration -- I only recently learned that the use of
> 'opening single quote' = 'turned comma' to mark aspiration is nothing
> more than an imitation of the Greek rough breathing. (mnemonic!)
Yes, the Georgian letter is the one which represents an aspirated t.
Confusingly, though, the textbooks I have used have treated the
aspirated stops as default values for t, p, and k, and added
apostrophes to the ejective stops.
This approach is of course pedagogically sound, because people
learning Georgian and speaking English or German natively are already
familiar with aspirated stops, while the ejective stop must be
especially taught to them. However, in loan words the ejective stops
are the default way to represent unvoiced stops in the original
language, and the aspirated stops represent original unvoiced
fricatives (the Greek theta in the Georgian words "mat'ematika" and
"arit'metika", for instance).
Peter T. Daniels
Yeah, Georgian has weird markedness. (I'm sure Jakobson dealt with it
somewhere.) But ejectives certainly should be marked, and with an
apostrophe.
Greek theta phi khi were voiceless aspirated stops until around the
turn of the era. Is there reason to suppose such words came into
Georgian _after_ they became fricatives? (Now that we have the
explanation of 'Greek' as 'philosopher'.)
You might try to find out what Georgian does with ejectives in
borrowed words -- such as the name Ethiopia. (Boo hiss if they cop out
and use the Greek version, Abyssinia, which is from Eth. Habesh.)
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Greek theta phi khi were voiceless aspirated stops until around the
> turn of the era. Is there reason to suppose such words came into
> Georgian _after_ they became fricatives? (Now that we have the
> explanation of 'Greek' as 'philosopher'.)
Probably there is no reason. Georgia must have connections with Greece
in the last centuries BCE.
>
> You might try to find out what Georgian does with ejectives in
> borrowed words -- such as the name Ethiopia. (Boo hiss if they cop out
> and use the Greek version, Abyssinia, which is from Eth. Habesh.)
The Georgian word for Ethiopia is Ethiopia - ეთიოპია. I hope the
Georgian alphabet can be read by you. Anyway, the th corresponds to
თ - aspirated t, and the p is პ - ejective p.
Peter T. Daniels
Came over fine, but in whatever font this Linux box is using, almost
all the exotics are too small to read.
I.e., ejective is borrowed as ejective.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>Which represents aspiration -- I only recently learned that the use of
>'opening single quote' = 'turned comma' to mark aspiration is nothing
>more than an imitation of the Greek rough breathing. (mnemonic!)
Huh? What on earth are you ...?
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/curlquot/aucurlen.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> Sun, 19 Oct 2008 06:07:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >Which represents aspiration -- I only recently learned that the use of
> >'opening single quote' = 'turned comma' to mark aspiration is nothing
> >more than an imitation of the Greek rough breathing. (mnemonic!)
>
> Huh? What on earth are you ...?
>
> http://rudhar.com/sfreview/curlquot/aucurlen.htm
What on earth what?
What, exactly, was I supposed to see on that page? Now do you see why
I don't bother following links? Now I definitely know better than to
follow links you give.
An open single quote, or backward apostrophe, is the mark for
aspirated consonants in the transliteration of Armenian and other
languages.
A 19th-century comparative philology manual I recently perused (I
don't know which) kindly pointed out for the student's benefit that
this was an extension of the Greek rough breathing mark (which is
transliterated with <h> in Greek studies).
Craoi...@gmail.com
Yes, but are you sure Georgian borrowed it directly from the
Ethiopians?
(And yes, I know Amharic has ejectives.)
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Rapp's footnote 44:
>
> Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
> Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
> berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
In Old Georgian, 4th - 11th century AD,
there is no such compound, while there
is bezr'i 'fur, skin, animal hair' and brankgu'i
'bear', which can both be explained via
Magdalenian BIR and PIE *bher-. Where
does the aspect of wise come from? perhaps
from the initial Sa- in Saberdznet'i, if it should
be an abbreviation of SAP for everywhere
in space, here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, under and above me,
in a metaphorical sense experienced,
wherefrom Greek sophia 'wisdom' and
Latin sapiens 'world wise', consider also
the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, center of
the Byzantinian empire. The medieval
aspect of wise may also come from Greek
and the Greeks in general, considered as
wise people, owing to their philosophers,
poets and scientists, kind of a synonym.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Oct 19, 2:40 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Rapp's footnote 44:
>
> > Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
> > Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
> > berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
> > Saberdznet'i by the Georgians. [The ' represents a superscript c]-
>
> In Old Georgian, 4th - 11th century AD,
> there is no such compound,
Come on, you have no idea of Georgian, Old or Modern.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> Nikolai Sarantakos, obviously Greek, asked for
> the possible meaning of the Georgian word or
> root for Greek, namely -berdz-. I had an intuition,
His name is Nikos Sarantakos, not "Nikolai" (I leave it as homework
for you, why it couldn't be Nikolai). And I am positive he is more
interested in hard linguistic facts than your "intuition". By now,
this whole newsgroup is fed up with your "intuitions".
Go learn languages so you can contribute. I gave you bibliographic
information on books you can use for learning Armenian and Georgian.
António Marques
> On Oct 16, 2:01 am, Nikos Sarantakos<sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
>> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
>> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
>> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
>> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
>
> ottoman purists objected to Yunanistan becasue in arabic al-yu:na:n
> was already a place name, apparent in turkish in YunanlI meaning "from
> Yunan". actually turkish has two words one YunanlI meaning a citizen
> of Greece and Rum meaning a greek from Turkey or Cyprus or some other
> place. ru:m is still found in some expressions like ka:thu:likiyy
> ru:miyy for Greek (not Roman, i.e. Latin rite, but Greek rite,
> recognizing the Pope) Catholic
Grrrr. 'Roman' does not mean 'Latin'. 'Roman Catholic' is a label
originally applied by non-'Roman Catholics', which means 'in communion
with the Pope of Rome'. Whereas in strict 'roman catholic' thinking,
'roman catholic' means 'a roman who is catholic'. Eastern catholics
(greek or otherwise) are roman as well in the common acception; western
catholics who are not from the city of Rome itself are not 'roman
catholic' in the strict sense.
Some eastern catholics think they are not 'roman catholic' because
'roman catholic' means 'latin catholic'. Since, however, 'roman
catholic' does not mean 'latin catholic', they are wrong on that count.
Of course, as far as the church is concerned, they are not 'roman
catholic', but that's because they are not from Rome; the church doesn't
internally recognise the worldly meaning of 'roman catholic', but only
knows 'catholic'.
--
António Marques
António Marques
> Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
>>> three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
>>> Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
>>> second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
>>> Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>>>
>>> Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
>>> Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
>>> Safrangeti for France).
>>>
>>> My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>>
>> Greeks. I believe they were miners.
>
> Sure, just like the Greeks today are plumbers, the Hungarians are
> teachers, and the Swedes are bus drivers. It works very well when an
> entire civilization is engaged in one non-subsistence occupation. Of
> course, if a Swede needs something done other than having a bus driven
> or a ride somewhere, he's out of luck, but that's a minor consideration.
That's precisely why europe needs immigrants.
--
António Marques
Yusuf B Gursey
you are probably right, but in the arab world where latin rite
catholics (ka:*th*u:li:kiy la:ti:niyy) are a minority these
distinctions are important
> --
> António Marques
Nikos Sarantakos
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Oct, 07:01, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
> > > Hi all
>
> > > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > > three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> > > Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> > > second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> > > Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
> > > Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> > > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > > and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> > > Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> > > Safrangeti for France).
>
> > > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > > Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> > > where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> > > exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> > > pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> > > TIA
> > > N. Sarantakos
>
> > "the Greeks are called ბერძენი berdzeni, deriving from the Georgian
> > word for "wise," a name commonly attributed to the notion that
> > philosophy was born in Greece". It footnotes this assertion with
> > reference (apparently) to:
>
> > Rapp SH, J. (Oct. - Dec., 2000). Sumbat Davitis-dze and the
> > Vocabulary of Political Authority in the Era of Georgian Unification.
> > Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 4, pp. 570–
> > 576.
>
> > This is on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/606617), but I do not have
> > access to the full text.
>
> > Passed on for information only: since my knowledge of Georgian is
> > confined to the alphabet, I have no way of testing the plausibility of
> > the above.
>
> Rapp's footnote 44:
>
> Medieval Georgian historical literature customarily refers to the
> Byzantine emperor as "the king of the Greeks," mep'e berdzent'a, from
> berdzeni, or "wise [man]." Byzantium, "Greece," was called
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, thank you and all who participated earnestly, I have got some
valuable insights!
n.s.
Craoi...@gmail.com
If you are interested in Georgian, there are several good textbooks
for English speakers:
Howard Aronson: Georgian, A Reading Grammar.
Howard Aronson and Dodona Kiziria: Georgian Language and Culture: A
Continuing Course.
George Hewitt: Georgian: A Learner's Grammar.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Oct 16, 2:01 am, Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@lu.coditel.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi all
>
> > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > three groups. By far the biggest is the Greece group (Grece,
> > Griechenland, Kreikka etc.), originating from Γραικοί/Graikoi and . A
> > second group uses words originating from Ιωνες/Ionians, like the
> > Turkish Yunanistan. A third smaller group uses names originating from
>
in arabic al-yu:na:n (feminine singular) isa palce name but al-yu:na:n
(masculine plural) means "the Greeks in general",
> was already a place name, apparent in turkish in YunanlI meaning "from
> Yunan". actually turkish has two words one YunanlI meaning a citizen
> of Greece and Rum meaning a greek from Turkey or Cyprus or some other
> place. ru:m is still found in some expressions like ka:thu:likiyy
> ru:miyy for Greek (not Roman, i.e. Latin rite, but Greek rite,
> recognizing the Pope) Catholic
>
>
>
> > Hellenes Ελληνες. All this is summarized here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Greece
>
> > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > and how this is declined. Note that Georgia is called Sakartveli in
> > Georgian but not many other countries' names begin with Sa- (there is
> > Safrangeti for France).
>
> > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > Note that acc. to what I read somewhere, there was another language
> > where the word for Greece was different, but apparently it ceased to
> > exist. In Ubykh, it seems Greece was wərəmʃʷabla (I wonder how this is
> > pronounced) and the first element seems to come from Rum or Rome.
>
> > TIA
> > N. Sarantakos- Hide quoted text -
António Marques
> On Oct 20, 6:20 am, António Marques<m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>>> place. ru:m is still found in some expressions like ka:thu:likiyy
>>> ru:miyy for Greek (not Roman, i.e. Latin rite, but Greek rite,
>>> recognizing the Pope) Catholic
>> Grrrr. 'Roman' does not mean 'Latin'. 'Roman Catholic' is a label
>> originally applied by non-'Roman Catholics', which means 'in communion
>> with the Pope of Rome'. Whereas in strict 'roman catholic' thinking,
>> 'roman catholic' means 'a roman who is catholic'. Eastern catholics
>> (greek or otherwise) are roman as well in the common acception; western
>> catholics who are not from the city of Rome itself are not 'roman
>> catholic' in the strict sense.
>> Some eastern catholics think they are not 'roman catholic' because
>> 'roman catholic' means 'latin catholic'. Since, however, 'roman
>> catholic' does not mean 'latin catholic', they are wrong on that count.
>> Of course, as far as the church is concerned, they are not 'roman
>> catholic', but that's because they are not from Rome; the church doesn't
>> internally recognise the worldly meaning of 'roman catholic', but only
>> knows 'catholic'.
>
> you are probably right, but in the arab world where latin rite
> catholics (ka:*th*u:li:kiy la:ti:niyy) are a minority these
> distinctions are important
But that's precisely my point. Notice how the arabic terminology is
accurate:
ka:thu:likiyy ru:miyy = greek ('roman') catholic = byzantine rite
ka:*th*u:li:kiy la:ti:niyy = latin catholic = latin rite
There's nothing there saying 'roman' (in the Rome, not the Rum sense)
equals latin. What I was objecting was to your use of 'roman catholic'
to mean 'latin catholic'.
But there are 4 things I wonder:
1 - The difference between _ka:thu:likiyy_ and _ka:*th*u:li:kiy_. Are
those the same word or not?
2 - How does one say 'roman' in the 'ancient Rome' sense and in the
'modern Rome' sense?
3 - What do they call eastern catholics (i.e. non-latin) who are not
greek/melkite/byzantine? (e.g. maronite, syriac...?)
4 - Do non-christians care about these distinctions?
Yusuf B Gursey
same word. just typo.
> 2 - How does one say 'roman' in the 'ancient Rome' sense and in the
> 'modern Rome' sense?
eastern mediaval arabs did not makea distinction and called them
ru:miyy as well. it took the western arabs of north africa and spain
to make a distinction and called the western empire or pre-split
romans ru:ma:n and that is how it is in modern arabic.
>
> 3 - What do they call eastern catholics (i.e. non-latin) who are not
> greek/melkite/byzantine? (e.g. maronite, syriac...?)
depending on the denomination ma:ru:niyy or whatever. I don't think
byzantine is different from greek.
>
> 4 - Do non-christians care about these distinctions?- Hide quoted text -
>
well, for one thing it is a factor in lebanese politics
lorad
wrote:
> > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > three groups.
> > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > and how this is declined. [...]
> > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> No idea, but is the Latvian surname "Barzdin" related?
Could be related...
In Latvian..'Bardzins' is a diminutive with a meaning of 'little
beard'; derived from 'bard' meaning 'beard', of course.
-alternatively-
It could be a contraction of an original 'bard + dzenis' (beard +
remover); 'bardzenis'.. 'one who shaves'.
The early Greeks were mostly clean shaven; they considered the
unshaven to be 'barbarians'.
Dušan Vukotić
> On 18 Oct, 10:34, Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > > three groups.
> > > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > > and how this is declined. [...]
> > > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > No idea, but is the Latvian surname "Barzdin" related?
>
> Could be related...
>
> In Latvian..'Bardzins' is a diminutive with a meaning of 'little
> beard'; derived from 'bard' meaning 'beard', of course.
>
> -alternatively-
>
> It could be a contraction of an original 'bard + dzenis' (beard +
> remover); 'bardzenis'.. 'one who shaves'.
Yeah... First we must see where the word beard came from. In Serbo-
Slavic the etymology of beard (brada, barada; Russ. борода; Cz.
bradka) appears to be pretty transparent. Slavic brada (beard) is
related to other Serbian words as obraz (cheek), obris (contour),
obrezati (crop, cut), obraditi (to farm, arrange, elaborate), obrastao
(overgrown), brid (edge), britva (razor, blade), bradva (adze, pole-
axe), o/brisati (erase), obrijati (shave).
I think it is impossible to follow the similar development (branching)
of words in other IE languages. Among Slavic languages, Serbian is
most appropriate to understand how the similar words evolved (in this
case) from the ancient ur-basis Bel-Hor-Gon.
The Bel-Hor-Gon basis denotes rotation, revolution or orbiting
(Serbian obrt, obrtanje, obrtati, vrteti 'turn', 'wheel', 'rotate')
and its philosophical meaning is "opposite driving" or in a Hegelian
sense, "die Negation der negation".
DV
lorad
> On Dec 12, 6:40šam, lorad <lorad...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> > On 18 Oct, 10:34, Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > The words for Greece and the Greeks in various languages fall into
> > > > three groups.
> > > > However, the Georgian name is the odd man out, using the word
> > > > Saberdzneti from Greece. Greeks are Berdz, although I don't know if
> > > > and how this is declined. [...]
> > > > My question is, what is the origin of the word Berdz for Greeks.
>
> > > No idea, but is the Latvian surname "Barzdin" related?
>
> > Could be related...
>
> > In Latvian..'Bardzins' is a diminutive with a meaning of 'little
> > beard'; derived from 'bard' meaning 'beard', of course.
>
> > -alternatively-
>
> > remover); 'bardzenis'.. 'one who shaves'.
>
>
> Yeah... First we must see where the word beard came from.
Good.. let's see..
> In Serbo-
> Slavic the etymology of beard (brada, barada; Russ. ÂÏÒÏÄÁ; Cz.
> bradka) appears to be pretty transparent. Slavic brada (beard) is
> related to other Serbian words as obraz (cheek), obris (contour),
> obrezati (crop, cut), obraditi (to farm, arrange, elaborate), obrastao
> (overgrown), brid (edge), britva (razor, blade), bradva (adze, pole-
> axe), o/brisati (erase), obrijati (shave).
Interesting, but Latvian 'sa+bard+dzenis' is a lot closer to 'sa+berd
+zneti' than any of your Serbian examples.
It is also contexually meaningful. (I've added the Latvian 'sa'
perfective for better comparison.. it's perfectly acceptable)
> I think it is impossible to follow the similar development (branching)
> of words in other IE languages.
Most probably true. Linguistic contacts were not identical for all
languages.
Still aren't.
> Among Slavic languages, Serbian is
> most appropriate to understand how the similar words evolved (in this
> case) from the ancient ur-basis Bel-Hor-Gon.
What "similar words" are you talking about?
I was talking about "saberdzneti ".
But yes, South Slavic is most conservative..Serbian is geographically
close to the first appearance of Old Bulgarian ca 900ad. One can
logically assume that such proximity would conserve Serbian more than
more distant Slavic languages.
The primary reason for expansion of Slavic into more distant and
consequently less conservative languages appears to be the spread of
Eastern Orthodoxy with its use of Old Church Slavonic (developed by
two Greek monks) coupled with a lot of missionary work. Overlaying OCS
upon more disparate native languages resulted in less conservative
Slavic languages. (besides subsequent development, of course)
Given that they attempted to create a written language for the native
language(s) with incomplete verisimilitude , one can only speculate
upon the nature of the original language that OCS replaced.
The large number of corresponding roots iidentical in Baltic and OCS
and Serbian (more so than any other indentifiable groupage) suggests
that the reason for these exceptional correspondences was due to a
native language that was quite Baltic-like untill the Greeks overlayed
it.
> The Bel-Hor-Gon basis denotes rotation, revolution or orbiting
> (Serbian obrt, obrtanje, obrtati, vrteti 'turn', 'wheel', 'rotate')
> and its philosophical meaning is "opposite driving" or in a Hegelian
> sense, "die Negation der negation".
You must understand that your 'Bel-Hor-Gon' theory remains unproven
and unaccepted by anyone other than you.
I can't make heads or tails of it.. and I have tried.
Dušan Vukotić
It seems you are forgetting that berdzeni means Greek in Georgian
while saberdzneti is the Greek state (Greece). These names are
Kartvelian and they denote "wise people" (Georgian brdzeni, brdznuli
"wise") and most probably have nothing to do with Latvian 'sa+bard
+dzenis'.
BTW, I found that Latvian 'dzenis' means "woodpecker", "flicker".
> > I think it is impossible to follow the similar development (branching)
> > of words in other IE languages.
>
> Most probably true. Linguistic contacts were not identical for all
> languages.
> Still aren't.
>
> > Among Slavic languages, Serbian is
> > most appropriate to understand how the similar words evolved (in this
> > case) from the ancient ur-basis Bel-Hor-Gon.
>
> What "similar words" are you talking about?
> I was talking about "saberdzneti ".
>
> But yes, South Slavic is most conservative..Serbian is geographically
> close to the first appearance of Old Bulgarian ca 900ad. One can
> logically assume that such proximity would conserve Serbian more than
> more distant Slavic languages.
It is inappropriate to claim that Old Slavic is the same as Old
Bulgarian. Bulgarian is not even the Slavic name.
I wrote about it earlier,
http://groups.google.com.br/group/sci.lang/msg/e6571a4d83af8c4d?
> The primary reason for expansion of Slavic into more distant and
> consequently less conservative languages appears to be the spread of
> Eastern Orthodoxy with its use of Old Church Slavonic (developed by
> two Greek monks) coupled with a lot of missionary work. Overlaying OCS
> upon more disparate native languages resulted in less conservative
> Slavic languages. (besides subsequent development, of course)
>
> Given that they attempted to create a written language for the native
> language(s) with incomplete verisimilitude , one can only speculate
> upon the nature of the original language that OCS replaced.
>
> The large number of corresponding roots iidentical in Baltic and OCS
> and Serbian (more so than any other indentifiable groupage) suggests
> that the reason for these exceptional correspondences was due to a
> native language that was quite Baltic-like untill the Greeks overlayed
> it.
Have you any concrete evidence to substantiate such a claim?
> > The Bel-Hor-Gon basis denotes rotation, revolution or orbiting
> > (Serbian obrt, obrtanje, obrtati, vrteti 'turn', 'wheel', 'rotate')
> > and its philosophical meaning is "opposite driving" or in a Hegelian
> > sense, "die Negation der negation".
>
> You must understand that your 'Bel-Hor-Gon' theory remains unproven
> and unaccepted by anyone other than you.
> I can't make heads or tails of it.. and I have tried.
Right.;-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Of course, Byzantium was the Roman Empire too. The last Roman emperor
was Constantine XI Paleologos (sometimes numbered Constantine XII or
Constantine XIII), also known by his mother's Serbian surname Dragaš
(Constantine Dragas). He was killed by Turks on May 29, 1453 and with
his death the Roman Empire seized to exist.
DV
lorad
You forget obvious semantic shifts..
In Latvian the name for Germans ('vacieshii) originates in a Latvian
root word for 'plunderer'.
The name for Vandals ('vandalii') originates from the Latvian word
'vandiit'.. which means to 'ravage'.
The name for Russians ('krievi'/'krivitches') from a Ltv. original
root meaning 'crooked'.. etc etc..
I believe that the same process might have being operative in the case
of 'sa+bard+dzenis' and 'sa+berd
+zneti' ; the Greeks were the 'beardless ones'. (just as the ancient
Cimmerians were described by their contemporaries)
> and most probably have nothing to do with Latvian 'sa+bard
> +dzenis'.
???
Don't be an idiot and try to disagree with a Latvian speaker regarding
his own language.
> BTW, I found that Latvian 'dzenis' means "woodpecker", "flicker".
The original meaning of 'dzenis' is 'driver' .. as in 'pile driver',
and as is obvious, it is also clear that the word evolved into a
descriptor noun for a particular bird... just as 'pecking' evolved
into English 'woodpecker' (parallel semantic development).
-and-
It's original root is 'dziiti' which means ' to (physically) chase
away'.
It occurs in the everyday phrase of 'Bardu dziiti'; lierally 'to chase
(away) a beard'.. add the 'enis' noun ending and you (again) get the
same 'bard+dzenis'.
Fini.
> > > I think it is impossible to follow the similar development (branching)
> > > of words in other IE languages.
>
> > Most probably true. Linguistic contacts were not identical for all
> > languages.
> > Still aren't.
>
> > > Among Slavic languages, Serbian is
> > > most appropriate to understand how the similar words evolved (in this
> > > case) from the ancient ur-basis Bel-Hor-Gon.
>
> > What "similar words" are you talking about?
> > I was talking about "saberdzneti ".
>
> > But yes, South Slavic is most conservative..Serbian is geographically
> > close to the first appearance of Old Bulgarian ca 900ad. One can
> > logically assume that such proximity would conserve Serbian more than
> > more distant Slavic languages.
>
> It is inappropriate to claim that Old Slavic is the same as Old
> Bulgarian.
No one did. Pay closer attention.
> Bulgarian is not even the Slavic name.
> I wrote about it earlier,http://groups.google.com.br/group/sci.lang/msg/e6571a4d83af8c4d?
Of course not. 'Old Bulgarian' is just a label based on a geographic
location (post 400ad) when Bulgar nomads invaded and established their
suzereignty over the local natives.
But 'Old Bulgarian' is also synonymous with OCS - which is the
language that I was talking about.
> > The primary reason for expansion of Slavic into more distant and
> > consequently less conservative languages appears to be the spread of
> > Eastern Orthodoxy with its use of Old Church Slavonic (developed by
> > two Greek monks) coupled with a lot of missionary work. Overlaying OCS
> > upon more disparate native languages resulted in less conservative
> > Slavic languages. (besides subsequent development, of course)
>
> > Given that they attempted to create a written language for the native
> > language(s) with incomplete verisimilitude , one can only speculate
> > upon the nature of the original language that OCS replaced.
>
> > The large number of corresponding roots iidentical in Baltic and OCS
> > and Serbian (more so than any other indentifiable groupage) suggests
> > that the reason for these exceptional correspondences was due to a
> > native language that was quite Baltic-like untill the Greeks overlayed
> > it.
>
> Have you any concrete evidence to substantiate such a claim?
I read History. You should too.
And then I draw conclusions that best fit historic facts.
> > > The Bel-Hor-Gon basis denotes rotation, revolution or orbiting
> > > (Serbian obrt, obrtanje, obrtati, vrteti 'turn', 'wheel', 'rotate')
> > > and its philosophical meaning is "opposite driving" or in a Hegelian
> > > sense, "die Negation der negation".
>
> > You must understand that your 'Bel-Hor-Gon' theory remains unproven
> > and unaccepted by anyone other than you.
> > I can't make heads or tails of it.. and I have tried.
>
> Right.;-)
> DV
Ochen seriiozhno !
Jack Campin - bogus address
> when Bulgar nomads invaded and established their suzereignty over the local
> natives.
> But 'Old Bulgarian' is also synonymous with OCS - which is the language that
> I was talking about.
I thought "Old Bulgarian" was usually applied to the Oghuz Turkic dialect
spoken in the area, the ancestor of modern Gagauz?
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
lorad
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 'Old Bulgarian' is just a label based on a geographic location (post 400ad)
> > when Bulgar nomads invaded and established their suzereignty over the local
> > natives.
> > But 'Old Bulgarian' is also synonymous with OCS - which is the language that
> > I was talking about.
>
> I thought "Old Bulgarian" was usually applied to the Oghuz Turkic dialect
> spoken in the area, the ancestor of modern Gagauz?
I wouldn't know about that.
I just know this:
"An alternative name for the Old Church Slavonic language[1][2]" and..
"The Bulgarian recension of Old Church Slavonic (9th–11th century)."
John Atkinson
PaulJK
> lorad wrote:
>> On Dec 15, 2:58 am, Jack Campin - bogus address
>> <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 'Old Bulgarian' is just a label based on a geographic location
>>>> (post 400ad) when Bulgar nomads invaded and established their
>>>> suzereignty over the local natives.
>>>> But 'Old Bulgarian' is also synonymous with OCS - which is the
>>>> language that I was talking about.
>>>
>>> I thought "Old Bulgarian" was usually applied to the Oghuz Turkic
>>> dialect spoken in the area, the ancestor of modern Gagauz?
I believe that the extinct Turkic languages are usually
called Bulgar language and Old Bulgar language.
The Slavic ones are usually called Bulgarian and Old Bulgarian.
It might be a good idea to stick to this distinction to avoid
slanging matches that keep errupting about Macedonian.
>> I wouldn't know about that.
>> I just know this:
>>
>> "An alternative name for the Old Church Slavonic language[1][2]" and..
>>
>> "The Bulgarian recension of Old Church Slavonic (9th–11th century)."
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bulgarian
>
> For more about the other one, have a look at
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar Language
My understanding is that what some linguists (especially Bulgarian
ones) call Old Bulgarian was either identical or very similar
to Macedonian dialect of Slavic before or at the time of formation
of OCS. At the time of Cyril & Method, the Common Slavic was
already splitting into various dialects but the dialects were still
mutually understandable. For example, it was as far away as
today's Moravia and Slovakia where people still readily understood
C&M's preaching and were happy to call their language (OCS)
"our language".
Many of them, though, call OCS Old Bulgarian. I don't particularly
like that. It sounds to me like something akin to calling OHG,
Old Bavarian.
pjk