Were There any Cultural Continuity Between Goths/Vandals and Vikings?
2.7182818284590...
other Germanic tribes migrated all over to South, Central, Eastern,
Western, Europe, and even to Northern Africa and Turkey. The Goths
were from Northern Germany area, probably close to today's Denmark.
The Vandals were from that area as well, and the surname "Wendel" is
still found in Sweden. This migration had the effect of supplanting
Celtic language in England (then known as Albania), as well as,
perhaps, change the demographics of huge swaths of Europe.
During the 10th and 11th Century AD, Vikings from Norway, Denmark,
and Sweden all migrated and influenced the English language via
French. They raided a lot of churches and monasteries, and in
general, they caused havoc to the locals of England.
However, it seems that the Vikings and Goths were very different
culturally. I don't think that the two had similar boats. The
Vikings had their own distinct boats with oars, but I don't think that
the Goths/Vandals did. Moreover, the Goths/Vandals/Angles/Saxons
spread and suplanted other languages, but the Vikings didn't do this
as much.
Did the Vikings feel that they were a continuity of the Goths/Vandals
or did it occur to them that they are the descendents of Goths/Vandals/
etc?
What were their similiarities, besides their languages?
igor
wrote:
Goths and Vandals were not purely Scandinavian, roaming Europe for
hundreds of years before reaching borders of Roman empire, they were
the amalgamation of various ethnicities including slavs, celts,
sarmations and etc.
Peter T. Daniels
Bishop Wulfila and the Gothic language/script are from around present-
day Moldova.
igor
>
> - Show quoted text -
According to Jordanes, Goths arived from Gotaland region of Sweden
conquering the territory located around present day Poland, after
several hundred years assimilating the indegineus population they
migrated to south of present day Ukraine on northern shore of Black
Sea agglomerating with indeginous iranian Skythians.
Genetically they were more Skythian then Skandinavian, IMHO.
DKleinecke
Wulfila's family was apparently from Cappadocia. A real racial hash.
This seems to be a suitable place for one of my theories about
Wulfila. I think his translation of the bible does not reflect the
everyday Gothic spoken around him but rather the language of the
oldest songs he could find. He would have done this because the bible
- to him - was not written in the Greek he heard around him but rather
the Greek of an earlier age. Hence he would have assumed that the
scriptures are written in archaic language.
A bit like the people who cannot give up the King james Bible.
The linguistic implication is that the date of the Gothic described in
our grammars is more like the turn of the era than 350 CE.
So far as i know we have only few words of secular Gothic.
Yusuf B Gursey
a group of Goths survived in the Crimea.
see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths
<<
In the 16th century, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq reported having had a
conversation with two Goths in Constantinople. He also left the Gothic-
Latin dictionary with few words that are similar to ancient Gothic
language. There are no further sources concerning the Crimean Goths
and the survival of their language.
>>
probably they were the Tats (tat means "foreigner, foriegn subject" in
turkic) mentioned by the Khans of Crimea. IIRC the two Goths in
question were representatives of the Khan of Crimea in Istanbul. IIRC
later the Tats are said to have adopted Crimean Turkish (Ottoman
Turkish with Tatar influence - BTW "Tatar" is also probably from the
same turkic word).
Yusuf B Gursey
thus, IIRC Swedes were called "Goths" in the later Middle Ages. but
that is just nomenclature.
António Marques
> Wulfila's family was apparently from Cappadocia. A real racial hash.
>
> This seems to be a suitable place for one of my theories about
> Wulfila. I think his translation of the bible does not reflect the
> everyday Gothic spoken around him but rather the language of the
> oldest songs he could find. He would have done this because the bible
> - to him - was not written in the Greek he heard around him but rather
> the Greek of an earlier age. Hence he would have assumed that the
> scriptures are written in archaic language.
>
> A bit like the people who cannot give up the King james Bible.
>
> The linguistic implication is that the date of the Gothic described in
> our grammars is more like the turn of the era than 350 CE.
>
> So far as i know we have only few words of secular Gothic.
There are a number of gothic loanwords in western romance languages.
igor
Yusuf, I have distant relatives in Moscow who are Jewish Tats of
Azerbaijan, super wealthy, they run in the same circles as Putin and
Medvedev.
I researched this people (to the extent of traveling to Azerbaijan and
visiting Kuba, Derbent areas), they consider them selfs true
Israelites who migrated to Caucasus hundreds of years ago from Iran
and speak Iranian dialect, most of them fluent in Turkic and Russian
also.
To me, the most striking attribute of this people is the variation of
their appearance, they go from blond Nordic type (my great grandmother
looked nordic) to dark Arab like complexion.
Trond Engen
> On Nov 23, 8:03 pm, igor <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 23, 12:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 23, 2:41 pm, igor <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 23, 10:59 am, "2.7182818284590..." <tangent1...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Around the 4th and 5th Century AD, the Goths and Vandals and many
>>>>> other Germanic tribes migrated all over to South, Central,
>>>>> Eastern, Western, Europe, and even to Northern Africa and
>>>>> Turkey. The Goths were from Northern Germany area, probably '
>>>>> close to today's Denmark. The Vandals were from that area as
>>>>> well, and the surname "Wendel" is still found in Sweden. This
>>>>> migration had the effect of supplanting Celtic language in
>>>>> England (then known as Albania), as well as, perhaps, change the
>>>>> demographics of huge swaths of Europe. [...]
>>>>
>>>> Goths and Vandals were not purely Scandinavian, roaming Europe for
>>>> hundreds of years before reaching borders of Roman empire, they
>>>> were the amalgamation of various ethnicities including slavs,
>>>> celts, sarmations and etc.-
>>>
>>> Bishop Wulfila and the Gothic language/script are from around
>>> present-day Moldova.
>>
>> According to Jordanes, Goths arived from Gotaland region of Sweden
>> conquering the territory located around present day Poland, after
>> several hundred years assimilating the indegineus population they
>> migrated to south of present day Ukraine on northern shore of Black
>> Sea agglomerating with indeginous iranian Skythians.
>> Genetically they were more Skythian then Skandinavian, IMHO.
>
> Wulfila's family was apparently from Cappadocia. A real racial hash.
>
> This seems to be a suitable place for one of my theories about
> Wulfila. I think his translation of the bible does not reflect the
> everyday Gothic spoken around him but rather the language of the
> oldest songs he could find. He would have done this because the bible
> - to him - was not written in the Greek he heard around him but
> rather the Greek of an earlier age. Hence he would have assumed that
> the scriptures are written in archaic language.
>
> A bit like the people who cannot give up the King james Bible.
>
> The linguistic implication is that the date of the Gothic described
> in our grammars is more like the turn of the era than 350 CE.
>
> So far as i know we have only few words of secular Gothic.
I don't know about his lexicon but I once participated in observing that
his translation is very close to the Greek original. Well, those few
snippets of Gothic and Greek texts we amateurishly compared support it.
We took it to be translationese. If it's true that he was born and
raised in Cappadocia, he might even have been a native Greek adult
learner of Gothic. However, D.H. Green in his _Language and Culture in
the Germanic Speaking World_ (well, I think it was him, anyway) noticed
the similarities and argued that in Wulfila's days preservation of
syntax was considered as important as preservation of meaning.
--
Trond Engen
Yusuf B Gursey
Tat has been applied by Turkic peoples to various different peoples
under their rule. in the case of Azerbaijan, the population that
remained Iranian speaking, more narrowly the Iranian Jewish
population. The Crimean Tats were altogethr different and unrelated.
DKleinecke
I would expect some in the old Visigothic area (which extended into
southern France). Portugal, at least northern Portugal was conquered
by the Silures who, so far as I know, were not Goths. Thus we should
expect more loanwords in Spain than in Portugal. Catalan should also
have them and Provencial should have fewer. I know nothing about the
actual situation. These are just guesses on the basis of historical
geography.
Any Gothic loans in Basque?
DKleinecke
They are also mentioned in the Song about Igor's Campaign.
ADR
> other Germanic tribes migrated all over to South, Central, Eastern,
> Western, Europe, and even to Northern Africa and Turkey. The Goths
> were from Northern Germany area, probably close to today's Denmark.
> The Vandals were from that area as well, and the surname "Wendel" is
> still found in Sweden. This migration had the effect of supplanting
> Celtic language in England (then known as Albania), as well as,
> perhaps, change the demographics of huge swaths of Europe.
The Goths dwelled in a diffuse aread in Eastern Europe bounded by
East Germany (the Elbe) to the West and Ukraine (as far as the
Dnieper) to the East.The Goths appeared mostly in the southern
European borders of the Empire, in the lower Danubian limes prior to
be admitted to the empire. I do not believe that there is any serious
archaeological evidence of their migration to Sweden although it was a
cause celebre for 19th century Swedes.
igor
Looks like ADR started selebrating the holiday season a day too
early!! Goths did not migrate back to Sweden, AFAIK.
Yusuf B Gursey
Enc.of Islam II disputes the identificationofthe Crimean Tats with the
Crimean Goths, in spite of some suggestive statements and the
opinionof some scholars. IRCC I had read of the identification in the
"InternationalJournalof Middle East Studies" (IJMES).
from Enc.of Islam II
<<
TAT (t.), a term used in earliest Turkish with the general meaning of
"alien, non-Turk", but speedily coming to be applied par excellence to
the Persians as opposed to the Turks, in any case with a somewhat
contemptuous nuance of meaning, as likewise with the term ta:dji:k
[q.v.].
...
Other usages cited by Minorsky, loc. cit., of tat = other peoples in
addition to the Persians, are much more doubtful. Schaeder discussed
passages which Minorsky adduced from the travel account of the Ottoman
captive Hans Schiltberger (early 15th century), and he showed that the
reading of some mss. of the Reisebuch, the language Kuthia "called by
the heathens That", should really be Churin = the people of the
northeastern Caucasus, in what is now southern Da:ghista:n [q.v.], the
Kürin or Lezgin [see lezgh], who would at that time have been near
neighbours of the still-subsisting Iranian Tats of the Baku and
Apsheron peninsula region [see below, 2. Language]. The correct
reading Churin can thus have no connection with the remnants of the
Goths (the putative Kuthia) in the Crimea, as asserted originally by
W. Tomaschek. On the other hand, Schiltberger correctly located a
group of Tats in the Crimea, the inhabitants of Karkery/Karkeri (= K.)
rk.yer, the name in later times for the "Jewish settlement"
Čufutk.al`e near Ba:ghče Saray) and Sutti/Suti (= the ancient Alan
settlement on the southeastern coast of the Crimea, Grk. Sougdaia,
Ital. Soldaia, Sodaia, etc., in Islamic rendering Sughda:k.[q.v.],
modern
Sudak). Schiltberger's Thatts could not, however, have been Crimean
Goths but were probably Greek-speaking Christians; tat was used over
three centuries later by the Crimean Tatars for Greek Christians who
migrated between 1775 and 1778 from the southeastern coast of the
Crimea to Mariupol (modern Zhdanov) on the northern shore of the Sea
of Azov and who spoke both a Neo-Greek dialect and Turkish (which they
wrote in Greek characters).
...
(C.E. Bosworth)
(Eva JeremiKhs)
Extract from the Encyclopaedia of Islam CD-ROM Edition v. 1.0
© 1999 Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, The Netherlands
John Atkinson
"After the collapse of Roman power, the Basques were in contact for
several centuries with two powerful Germanic neighbours, the Franks to
the north and the Visigoths to the south. Nevertheless, there is not a
single instance of an undeniable loan from these languages, though a
very few candidates have been suggested. Chief among these is ehun 'one
hundred' The Gothic for '100' is recorded as ain hund, which is known
to have represented a [ronunciationb like [enhund], and this would have
been borrowed into Basque as *enun, yielding the attested ehun after the
loss of intervocalic n. But [...] the Germanic origin is not certain.
[...] The problem is one of motivation: why would Basque-speakers have
borrowed this one numeral from Visigothic at such a late date?"
Another one he mentions (p 285) is ile (ule in Bizkaia), 'hair' -- cf
Gothic wulla 'wool'.
John.
Larry Caldwell
@g31g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, tange...@gmail.com
(2.7182818284590...) says...
There was a vast difference between the two events. In the 4th and 5th
centuries, Germanic tribes were displaced by a cooling climate, which
forced them to move south or die. They moved piecemeal, joining up with
related groups as they settled in southern areas. It was a migration,
not an invasion. The only thing they could return to was starvation and
death.
The Viking invasion happened in response to population pressures during
the medieval warm period. Going viking was a way for young men to get a
start in life, or for chieftains to gain wealth and influence. Life in
the north was good, with good crops and good fishing. Some of the
population bled off to colonies in Greenland and Iceland, and some, like
Rollo, set up shop in Europe, but their home base remained intact and
prosperous.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
hazchem
> On Nov 25, 9:25 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > DKleinecke wrote, on 25-11-2009 04:15:
>
> > > Wulfila's family was apparently from Cappadocia. A real racial hash.
>
> > > This seems to be a suitable place for one of my theories about
> > > Wulfila. I think his translation of the bible does not reflect the
> > > everyday Gothic spoken around him but rather the language of the
> > > oldest songs he could find. He would have done this because the bible
> > > - to him - was not written in the Greek he heard around him but rather
> > > the Greek of an earlier age. Hence he would have assumed that the
> > > scriptures are written in archaic language.
>
> > > A bit like the people who cannot give up the King james Bible.
>
> > > The linguistic implication is that the date of the Gothic described in
> > > our grammars is more like the turn of the era than 350 CE.
>
> > > So far as i know we have only few words of secular Gothic.
>
> > There are a number of gothic loanwords in western romance languages.
>
> I would expect some in the old Visigothic area (which extended into
> southern France). Portugal, at least northern Portugal was conquered
> by the Silures who, so far as I know, were not Goths.
Don't you mean Suebi? A couple of years ago, a friend of mine reported
having had a conversation with two Goths in Barnsley. However, I
suspect that they were members of a youth culture of the same name and
not descendents of the ancient Germanic tribe. Although they say that
a Sarmatian war band settled just south of Wigan.
Weland
Overall, I agree that climate is an often overlooked explanation and I
agree that there are significant differences between the Viking
invasions and the earlier Volkwanderung, the problem I see here is that
climate can not be the only reason for either sequence of events. In
the earlier period, there was also the movement of other peoples,
opportunity for wealth and greater security as well as food caused by
the better climate south. In the latter, the first Viking raids occur
before any significant results from the gradual warming would be felt;
in fact one of the usual reasons given for the beginning of the Viking
raids is that life in Scandinavia was not good and there was not plenty
of good crops and good fishing etc. Their prosperity was due in part to
getting rid of excess population through migration south, east, and west.
Weland
I meant to add that there are cultural similarities: organization of
leadership, shared cultural traditions (Theodric the Goth appears in
later Norse stories, the Hildebrandslied and the Waltharius/Waldere poem
etc show shared contacts and cultural traditions at least at some level.
DKleinecke
> Weland wrote:
> > Larry Caldwell wrote:
> >> In article <0c16fb8e-ec6a-4e1d-9c05-ef2349fc66e3
It seems difficult to me to separate the two movements of Germanic
speakers southward even if we acknowledge that there was a lull of
sorts between about 500 and 800. The lull may well have been due
strictly to the fact that so many people had left that the pressure
was reduced. Even in the middle of the lull we have incidents like
Hygelac's attack on the Frisians which feels like a pure Viking
operation. It is even possible that the Viking renewal of attacks
southward was the result of Harald Fairhairs nation-building
operations and the parallel operations in Denmark.
It could be argued that the first wave of attackers were invaders
looking for a home and the second wave were looters who intended to
return home. But a large number of Vikings did not in fact return
home but settled in where they gained control.
A much more speculative theory would be based on outlaw "secret"
societies like the Jomsvikings and. perhaps, the Berserkers. Such
societies appear to have existed in both Africa and South America at
various times and cannot be excluded out of hand in northern Europe.
The connection between these societies and the Christian monastic
movement remains unexplored and there are even possible Islamic
models.
Yusuf B Gursey
at least the linguistic evdience points to distinct peoples, and the
historical evidence points to different motives
> strictly to the fact that so many people had left that the pressure
> was reduced. Even in the middle of the lull we have incidents like
> Hygelac's attack on the Frisians which feels like a pure Viking
> operation. It is even possible that the Viking renewal of attacks
> southward was the result of Harald Fairhairs nation-building
> operations and the parallel operations in Denmark.
>
> It could be argued that the first wave of attackers were invaders
> looking for a home and the second wave were looters who intended to
> return home. But a large number of Vikings did not in fact return
> home but settled in where they gained control.
sounds plausible to me.
ADR
When did I state that they did??? I said that 19th century Swedish
nationalists made a connection to the Goths despite scant information
of any presence of them there.
ADR
wrote:
> The Viking invasion happened in response to population pressures during
> the medieval warm period. Going viking was a way for young men to get a
> start in life, or for chieftains to gain wealth and influence. Life in
> the north was good, with good crops and good fishing. Some of the
> population bled off to colonies in Greenland and Iceland, and some, like
> Rollo, set up shop in Europe, but their home base remained intact and
> prosperous.
Now it is fashionable to blame all to climate change. Yes, the period
of Viking terror was a relatively warm one, but this has little to do
with the onset of the Viking raids. There was a whole host of
reasons. In the first place, western European societies became
wealthy enough to be worth plundering. Whenever settled societies
become wealthy, somehow plunderers always appear. The fact that the
western European countries did not have the capability of repelling or
restricting the raiders, made raiding profitable and attracted more
plunderers. And so on and so forth. There is little mystery here.
In fact, prosperous settled groups and states have attracted raiders
since the beginning of recorded history!
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Nov 30, 6:39 am, Larry Caldwell <firstnamelastinit...@peaksky.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The Viking invasion happened in response to population pressures during
> > the medieval warm period. Going viking was a way for young men to get a
> > start in life, or for chieftains to gain wealth and influence. Life in
> > the north was good, with good crops and good fishing. Some of the
> > population bled off to colonies in Greenland and Iceland, and some, like
> > Rollo, set up shop in Europe, but their home base remained intact and
> > prosperous.
>
> Now it is fashionable to blame all to climate change. Yes, the period
> of Viking terror was a relatively warm one, but this has little to do
IIRC that's why they were able to colonize Greenland and left it when
the climate cooled again.
Yusuf B Gursey
nevertheless there were early traditions locating the Goths there.
Martin Edwards
That accounts for the rumour that Wigan Pier was originally the camp of
the Wigan Persians.
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Yusuf B Gursey
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25188176
The Ethnogenesis of the Crimean Tatars. An Historical.
Reinterpretation
Brian Glyn Williams
Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Third Series, Vol. 11, No. 3
(Nov., 2001), pp. 329-348
<<
The thirteenth-century traveller to the Crimea, Friar William of
Rubruck wrote of this area "There are lofty promontories along the sea
coast from Kherson (Western Crimea) as far as the mouth of the Tanais
(Sea of Azov), and between Kerson and Soldaia (Sudak) lie the Forty
Settlements, of which nearly every one has its own dialect: the
population includes many Goths, whose language is Germanic".4 While
this source may have been referring to the mountain fortress known in
Tatar as Kirk Yer (Forty Places), his description of the linguistic
diversity of this region was certainly intentional.
Yusuf B Gursey
OTOH
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25188176
The Ethnogenesis of the Crimean Tatars. An Historical.
Reinterpretation
Brian Glyn Williams
Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Third Series, Vol. 11, No. 3
(Nov., 2001), pp. 329-348
<<
The "Tats" of the Crimea
During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, German
historians and nationalists (among them Adolf Hitler) rediscovered the
lost history of their Gothic ancestors in the Crimean peninsula and
there was much speculation concerning the fate of this "lost Aryan
tribe". There is of course no mystery concerning the fate of this
eastern branch of the great medieval Gothic migrations. Nineteenth-
century Russian and German visitors to the Tatar villages in the
shadow of Gothic mountain fortress of Mangup Kale (Tatar, "Mangup
Castle"), found their descendants living there among the Tatars. A
German source from 1806 points out that the Crimean Tatars of this
mountainous region were aware of their Christian origins.24 A
nineteenth-century Russian visitor to the Gothic region in the south-
western mountains was convinced that, "In aU probability their (the
Goths) descendants are the Tatars of a series of villages in the
Crimea who are sharply delineated from the inhabitants of neighbouring
villages by their tall height and other features characteristic of the
Scandinavians."25 More recent works, such as Michel Kazanski's history
of the Goths point out that "In all probabillty the remnants of the
Crimean Goths remain in the 'Turkic' base of the Tatar population."26
Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.27 There seems to
be little doubt that the mountain Goths did in fact convert to Islam
and become "Tatars", although they were only gradualiy accepted by the
Kipçak-Tatar nomadic population of the steppe as fellow MusUms. Hans
Schiltberger, a Bavarian slave who visited this region in 1396,
claimed that the neighbouring Tatars of the plains used the derisive
term "Tat" (Thatt) to describe their Islamized Goth and coastal
neighbours.28 According to P. Brunn, the term Tat signified a reUgious
"renegade" or "a conquered race" in the local Turkic dialect and "the
Crimean Tatars appUed the contemptuous term of Tadd to the Tatars of
the south coast because they did not consider them of pure descent, in
consequence of the intercourse of their ancestors with the Greeks and
Genoese".29 This term has the same root as the pejorative ethnonym
"Tat" used by the Turks of the Caucasus to describe earUer non-Turkic
populations of this region such as the Jewish Mountain Tats. This term
also appeared in Central Asia and was used by nomadic Turks to refer
to the sedentary Iranian peoples of this region (i.e. the Tajiks). In
his analysis of the Crimean Tats' ancestry, Edmond Schutz writes, "The
anthro pological differences between the Tatars and Tats is
conspicuous. The Tatars (proper) are usuaUy round faced, short and
dark, among the Tats prevail two types: the most characteristic
feature of many of them is their high stature, fair hair and blue
eyes".30 This source points out that the presence of these Caucasoid
features among these Tatars, who are erroneously stereotyped as
Mongoloid, lay in this Tatar sub-group's history: The facts behind
their specific anthropological character which sharply distinguishes
them from the Tatar people should be looked for in their earlier
history in the Crimea. ...
24 V. E. Vozgirin, Istoricheskie Sud'by Krymskikh Tatar (Moscow,
1992), p. 93.
25 Ibid., p. 94.
26 Michel Kazinski, Les Goths 1er-Vile Apres J.-C. (Paris, 1991), p.
124.
27 Etham Feyzi Gozaydin, Kirim. Kirim. Turklerinin Yerlesme ve
Gocmeleri (Istanbul, 1948), p. 30.
28 J. Buchan Tefler, The Bondage and Travels of Johann Schiltberger
(London, 1879), pp. 50, 176.
29 Ibid., p. 176.
30 Edmond Schutz, "The Tat People in the Crimea", Acta Orientalia,
Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, XXXI (1977),P- 96.
>>
>
>
>
>
> > > Medvedev.
> > > I researched this people (to the extent of traveling to Azerbaijan and
> > > visiting Kuba, Derbent areas), they consider them selfs true
> > > Israelites who migrated to Caucasus hundreds of years ago from Iran
> > > and speak Iranian dialect, most of them fluent in Turkic and Russian
> > > also.
> > > To me, the most striking attribute of this people is the variation of
> > > their appearance, they go from blond Nordic type (my great grandmother
> > > looked nordic) to dark Arab like complexion.- Hide quoted text -
>
Michael Kuettner
"2.7182818284590..." schrieb :
> Around the 4th and 5th Century AD, the Goths and Vandals and many
> other Germanic tribes migrated all over to South, Central, Eastern,
> Western, Europe, and even to Northern Africa and Turkey.
Nope. Since many Germanic tribes had been here since the turn
of the last millennium (as Varus found out to his chagrin), the above
sentence is nonsense.
> The Goths
> were from Northern Germany area, probably close to today's Denmark.
Nope. That old horse has been flogged to death long ago.
> The Vandals were from that area as well, and the surname "Wendel" is
> still found in Sweden.
Oh, and more nonsense.
> This migration had the effect of supplanting
> Celtic language in England (then known as Albania), as well as,
> perhaps, change the demographics of huge swaths of Europe.
>
Ah, so England is now Europe ?
<snip rest>
Go read some history books which are younger than 1790.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
igor
>
> read more »
Fascinating. There is also a substantial contribution to the
ethnogenesis of this population by Hazars and Alans who were displaced
by Rus and later by Huns all over the area, many clans were known for
their Caucasoid appearance (tall, fair hair and eyes).
Yusuf B Gursey
the Alans or their ancestors were the first wave of migration. the
Huns displaced them. the Khazars, who were more of a dynasty than an
ethnic group (they spoke a language deriving from Hunnic) came after.
the Rus, slavified Scandinavians, displaced the Khazar Empire. the
underlying native substratum had fair hair and eyes.
igor
You're right Rus came after Huns.
Yusuf B Gursey
they sure did!
Trond Engen
> On Dec 2, 12:28 am, igor <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 1, 7:38 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The "Tats" of the Crimea
>>> eastern branch of the great medieval Gothic migrations. Nineteenth-
>>> century Russian and German visitors to the Tatar villages in the
>>> shadow of Gothic mountain fortress of Mangup Kale (Tatar, "Mangup
>>> Castle"), found their descendants living there among the Tatars. A
>>> German source from 1806 points out that the Crimean Tatars of this
>>> mountainous region were aware of their Christian origins.24 A
>>> nineteenth-century Russian visitor to the Gothic region in the south-
>>> western mountains was convinced that, "In aU probability their (the
>>> Goths) descendants are the Tatars of a series of villages in the
>>> Crimea who are sharply delineated from the inhabitants of neighbouring
>>> villages by their tall height and other features characteristic of the
>>> Scandinavians."25 More recent works, such as Michel Kazanski's history
>>> of the Goths point out that "In all probabillty the remnants of the
>>> Crimean Goths remain in the 'Turkic' base of the Tatar population."26
>>> Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
>>> as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
>>> and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.27 There seems to
>>> be little doubt that the mountain Goths did in fact convert to Islam
>>> and become "Tatars", although they were only gradualiy accepted by the
>>> Schiltberger, a Bavarian slave who visited this region in 1396,
>>> claimed that the neighbouring Tatars of the plains used the derisive
>>> term "Tat" (Thatt) to describe their Islamized Goth and coastal
>>
>> Fascinating. There is also a substantial contribution to the
>> ethnogenesis of this population by Hazars and Alans who were displaced
>> by Rus and later by Huns all over the area, many clans were known for
>> their Caucasoid appearance (tall, fair hair and eyes).
>
> the Alans or their ancestors were the first wave of migration. the
> Huns displaced them. the Khazars, who were more of a dynasty than an
> ethnic group (they spoke a language deriving from Hunnic) came after.
> the Rus, slavified Scandinavians, displaced the Khazar Empire. the
> underlying native substratum had fair hair and eyes.
From the few words that are known, the Crimean Gothic language looks
surprisingly modern and also similar to Low Franconian or Low Saxon, as
if there'd been contact with Germania proper all along. I remember
speculating that these Goths were really Rus, settled there by the
emperor of Constantinople, or a mixed Goth/Rus population, but then
there should have been recognizable North Germanic features. Gr�nvik and
others favour a Medieval influx of West Germanic settlers. Is there
other evidence for this? How would it have come come about? Relocation
of German speaking settlers from Transilvania or Galicia soon after the
Ottoman or Crimean Khanate conquests?
--
Trond Engen
Yusuf B Gursey
> >>> Schiltberger, a Bavarian slave who visited this region in 1396,
> >>> claimed that the neighbouring Tatars of the plains used the derisive
> >>> term "Tat" (Thatt) to describe their Islamized Goth and coastal
> >>> neighbours.28 [...]
>
> >> Fascinating. There is also a substantial contribution to the
> >> ethnogenesis of this population by Hazars and Alans who were displaced
> >> by Rus and later by Huns all over the area, many clans were known for
> >> their Caucasoid appearance (tall, fair hair and eyes).
>
> > the Alans or their ancestors were the first wave of migration. the
> > Huns displaced them. the Khazars, who were more of a dynasty than an
> > ethnic group (they spoke a language deriving from Hunnic) came after.
> > the Rus, slavified Scandinavians, displaced the Khazar Empire. the
> > underlying native substratum had fair hair and eyes.
>
> From the few words that are known, the Crimean Gothic language looks
> surprisingly modern and also similar to Low Franconian or Low Saxon, as
> if there'd been contact with Germania proper all along. I remember
> speculating that these Goths were really Rus, settled there by the
> emperor of Constantinople, or a mixed Goth/Rus population, but then
> others favour a Medieval influx of West Germanic settlers. Is there
> other evidence for this? How would it have come come about? Relocation
> of German speaking settlers from Transilvania or Galicia soon after the
> Ottoman or Crimean Khanate conquests?
I would assume that an Ottoman transfer would have been recorded and
known to historians. I don't think the Crimean Khanate did any
relocating. any possible relation to the Volga Germans?
>
> --
> Trond Engen
Yusuf B Gursey
in favor of the Crimean Goths being independent of all the mentioned
populations is that they were Muslims, like the Tatar population, not
Christians.
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > Trond Engen
Yusuf B Gursey
sorry, can't be any relation, as it turns out that the Volga Germans
came during Catherine the Great.
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > Trond Engen
igor
> hazchem wrote:
> > On 26 Nov, 03:22, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
Take your medication, Alzheimer patient.
igor
> >>> Schiltberger, a Bavarian slave who visited this region in 1396,
> >>> claimed that the neighbouring Tatars of the plains used the derisive
> >>> term "Tat" (Thatt) to describe their Islamized Goth and coastal
> >>> neighbours.28 [...]
>
> >> Fascinating. There is also a substantial contribution to the
> >> ethnogenesis of this population by Hazars and Alans who were displaced
> >> by Rus and later by Huns all over the area, many clans were known for
> >> their Caucasoid appearance (tall, fair hair and eyes).
>
> > the Alans or their ancestors were the first wave of migration. the
> > Huns displaced them. the Khazars, who were more of a dynasty than an
> > ethnic group (they spoke a language deriving from Hunnic) came after.
> > the Rus, slavified Scandinavians, displaced the Khazar Empire. the
> > underlying native substratum had fair hair and eyes.
>
> From the few words that are known, the Crimean Gothic language looks
> surprisingly modern and also similar to Low Franconian or Low Saxon, as
> if there'd been contact with Germania proper all along. I remember
> speculating that these Goths were really Rus, settled there by the
> emperor of Constantinople, or a mixed Goth/Rus population, but then
> others favour a Medieval influx of West Germanic settlers. Is there
> other evidence for this? How would it have come come about? Relocation
> of German speaking settlers from Transilvania or Galicia soon after the
> Ottoman or Crimean Khanate conquests?
>
> --
> Trond Engen
Zosimus consistently refers to the Gothic migrants as "Scythians",
AFAIK, they were never in Germany proper.
It is surprising for them to retain intelligible German given the fact
that they left Scandinavia hundreds of years prior, never spoke German
in the first place (maybe proto-German), assimilating with many none
Germanic speakers not even counting the fact that languages change
drastically over time. For example me being a native Russian speaker,
I can barely understand Primary Chronicle written in 12th century ce.
igor
Actually they did speak Germanic, I changed my mind:)))))
ADR
Gothic is one of the germanic languages that we have some information
on since extensive fragments of the Gospels translated into Gothic
remain. It is not really peculiar for languages to morph very quickly
when disparate populations with divergent dialects merge. It did
happen in English in the beginning of the 2nd millenium as Danes,
Angles and Saxons merged into a single unit.
am...@hotmail.com
> On Nov 26, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
> as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
> and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.
What is interesting or unexpected in this? The numbers of the "true"
Mongols who settled in various parts of the modern European Russia/
Ukarine was extremely limited: Batu had something around 4K (families)
with those "borrowed" from his brother Urdu (founder of the Siberian
Horde) and Nogai inherited approximately the same number. None of them
settled in the Crimea so there was simply no source for any
significant Mongolian presense in the area. Crimean Khanate had been
founded only in mid-XV century and by this time whatever could pass
for the "Mongolian blood" in the former Golden Horde was extrtemely
thin outside the ruling family. Even at its foundation, the Mongolian
population of the Golden Horde itself was so insignificant that it was
routinely referenced as the "Kipchak Horde" (Vernadsky argued that the
name "Golden Horde" is totally anachronistic and that the right names
were "Kipchack" or "Blue" Horde). Even as far as the ...er...
"true" (steppe) Tatars are involved, why would they be interested in
settling in the areas as unsuitable for the nomadic life style as the
mountain or urban areas of the Crimea when there was plenty of steppe
space inside and outside the peninsula?
BTW, the Tatars of Kazan - Astrakhan area (at least those I saw
myself) do not look Mongolian either.
am...@hotmail.com
XIX. :-)
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Dec 1, 10:38 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 26, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
> > as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
> > and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.
>
> What is interesting or unexpected in this? The numbers of the "true"
it's not my words or opinion, but what that of hte source I quoted.
Yusuf B Gursey
bu the germanic speakers encountered by European sources are from much
earlier.
am...@hotmail.com
>
I know, this was a joke (didn't you notice ":-)")?
am...@hotmail.com
> On Dec 3, 9:11 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Dec 1, 10:38 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 26, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > > Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
> > > as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
> > > and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.
>
> > What is interesting or unexpected in this? The numbers of the "true"
>
> it's not my words or opinion, but what that of hte source I quoted.
>
Obviously. I was just commenting on the siurce "discovering" (among
other things) something that shoulod be quite obvious.
>
>
> > Mongols who settled in various parts of the modern European Russia/
> > Ukarine was extremely limited: Batu had something around 4K (families)
> > with those "borrowed" from his brother Urdu (founder of the Siberian
> > Horde) and Nogai inherited approximately the same number. None of them
> > settled in the Crimea so there was simply no source for any
> > significant Mongolian presense in the area. Crimean Khanate had been
> > founded only in mid-XV century and by this time whatever could pass
> > for the "Mongolian blood" in the former Golden Horde was extrtemely
> > thin outside the ruling family. Even at its foundation, the Mongolian
> > population of the Golden Horde itself was so insignificant that it was
> > routinely referenced as the "Kipchak Horde" (Vernadsky argued that the
> > name "Golden Horde" is totally anachronistic and that the right names
> > were "Kipchack" or "Blue" Horde). Even as far as the ...er...
> > "true" (steppe) Tatars are involved, why would they be interested in
> > settling in the areas as unsuitable for the nomadic life style as the
> > mountain or urban areas of the Crimea when there was plenty of steppe
> > space inside and outside the peninsula?
>
> > BTW, the Tatars of Kazan - Astrakhan area (at least those I saw
> > myself) do not look Mongolian either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
igor
Correct. Got confused with the time frames. We have the Gospels.
I was comparing them to Varangians who completely lost every trace of
their language.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> > On Nov 26, 12:49 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > Interestingly enough, the contemporary Crimean Tatars see themselves
> > as the descendants of "the Circassians, Goths, ancient Greeks, ItaUans
OTOH this may reflect an official soviet or Russian position.
> > and Armenians" and do not identify with the Mongols.
the diaspora also identifies with the Turks.
>
> What is interesting or unexpected in this? The numbers of the "true"
> Mongols who settled in various parts of the modern European Russia/
> Ukarine was extremely limited: Batu had something around 4K (families)
> with those "borrowed" from his brother Urdu (founder of the Siberian
> Horde) and Nogai inherited approximately the same number. None of them
> settled in the Crimea so there was simply no source for any
> significant Mongolian presense in the area. Crimean Khanate had been
> founded only in mid-XV century and by this time whatever could pass
> for the "Mongolian blood" in the former Golden Horde was extrtemely
> thin outside the ruling family. Even at its foundation, the Mongolian
> population of the Golden Horde itself was so insignificant that it was
> routinely referenced as the "Kipchak Horde" (Vernadsky argued that the
> name "Golden Horde" is totally anachronistic and that the right names
> were "Kipchack" or "Blue" Horde). Even as far as the ...er...
the official Turkic name was Ulu*gh* Orda "Great Horde". Golden Horde
is what the Russians used.
Yusuf B Gursey
I didn't!
ADR
The Varangians? Those were the members of an Imperial Guard battalion
in Constantinople who were mostly Norse up to the 11th century and
were recruited not only from Kiev but from Scandinavia as well.
Harold Hadrada was a celebrated member of the Guard prior to launching
his claims to the Norwegian and Engish crowns. Later, the Varangian
Guard was opened to a variety of other western and northern Europeans,
especially when the enemy of the Byzantines were the Normans of Sicily.
Trond Engen
> On Dec 2, 9:09 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 2, 5:57 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>>
>>> From the few words that are known, the Crimean Gothic language
>>> looks surprisingly modern and also similar to Low Franconian or Low
>>> Saxon, as if there'd been contact with Germania proper all along. I
>>> remember speculating that these Goths were really Rus, settled
>>> there by the emperor of Constantinople, or a mixed Goth/Rus
>>> population, but then there should have been recognizable North
>>> Germanic features. Gr�nvik and others favour a Medieval influx of
>>> West Germanic settlers. Is there other evidence for this? How would
>>> it have come come about? Relocation of German speaking settlers
>>> from Transilvania or Galicia soon after the Ottoman or Crimean
>>> Khanate conquests?
>>
>> I would assume that an Ottoman transfer would have been recorded and
>> known to historians. I don't think the Crimean Khanate did any
>> relocating. any possible relation to the Volga Germans?
>
> in favor of the Crimean Goths being independent of all the mentioned
> populations is that they were Muslims, like the Tatar population, not
> Christians.
Your quote from Brian Glynn Williams says they were late converts from
Christianity to Islam.
--
Trond Engen
igor
Slavs called Varangians Varyags, according to Primary Chronicle slavs
along with finns invited Rurick and his kin from Sweden to rule over
them and they were the founders of Kievan Rus.
Over time Varyags (Varangians) completely slavisized and completely
abandoned their native language in favor of slavic (Russian) with no
traces of any germanic language whatsoever.
Yusuf B Gursey
AFAIK there are many Norse loanwords in Russian. in the Haghia Sophia
(Constantinople / Istanbul) there is a graffito in Runic script in Old
Norse (saw it). also IIRC there are Runic Norse inscriptions in Russia
or the Ukraine.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Yusuf B Gursey:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 2, 9:09 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Dec 2, 5:57 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
> >>> From the few words that are known, the Crimean Gothic language
> >>> looks surprisingly modern and also similar to Low Franconian or Low
> >>> Saxon, as if there'd been contact with Germania proper all along. I
> >>> remember speculating that these Goths were really Rus, settled
> >>> there by the emperor of Constantinople, or a mixed Goth/Rus
> >>> population, but then there should have been recognizable North
> >>> West Germanic settlers. Is there other evidence for this? How would
> >>> it have come come about? Relocation of German speaking settlers
> >>> from Transilvania or Galicia soon after the Ottoman or Crimean
> >>> Khanate conquests?
>
> >> I would assume that an Ottoman transfer would have been recorded and
> >> known to historians. I don't think the Crimean Khanate did any
> >> relocating. any possible relation to the Volga Germans?
>
> > in favor of the Crimean Goths being independent of all the mentioned
> > populations is that they were Muslims, like the Tatar population, not
> > Christians.
>
> Your quote from Brian Glynn Williams says they were late converts from
> Christianity to Islam.
I wrote:
>>> A
>>> German source from 1806 points out that the Crimean Tatars of
this
>>> mountainous region were aware of their Christian origins
OK.
>
> --
> Trond Engen
Christopher Culver
> AFAIK there are many Norse loanwords in Russian.
Are there? The only Germanic loanwords I can think of in Russian are
either Gothic loanwords that came so early that they underwent
Proto-Slavonic era sound changes ("church", "prince" and the like), or
very recent German loanwords (штраф, шлагбаум). The only Norse loan
I've come across are the names Oleg and Olga, being from Helge and
Helga.
am...@hotmail.com
> On Dec 3, 9:11 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>
> > What is interesting or unexpected in this? The numbers of the "true"
> > Mongols who settled in various parts of the modern European Russia/
> > Ukarine was extremely limited: Batu had something around 4K (families)
> > with those "borrowed" from his brother Urdu (founder of the Siberian
> > Horde) and Nogai inherited approximately the same number. None of them
> > settled in the Crimea so there was simply no source for any
> > significant Mongolian presense in the area. Crimean Khanate had been
> > founded only in mid-XV century and by this time whatever could pass
> > for the "Mongolian blood" in the former Golden Horde was extrtemely
> > thin outside the ruling family. Even at its foundation, the Mongolian
> > population of the Golden Horde itself was so insignificant that it was
> > routinely referenced as the "Kipchak Horde" (Vernadsky argued that the
> > name "Golden Horde" is totally anachronistic and that the right names
> > were "Kipchack" or "Blue" Horde). Even as far as the ...er...
>
> the official Turkic name was Ulu*gh* Orda "Great Horde". Golden Horde
> is what the Russians used.
AFAIK, "Great Horde" had been used by the Russians as well but the
important point is that both these names are applicable to "post-
imperial" Mongolian period: as long as there was universally
acknowledged Great Khan, his (Mongolian) Horde was Great and Golden.
After Empire disintegrated, "Great" and "Golden" started being applied
to the main regional horde (Blue/Kipchack).
Yusuf B Gursey
wrote:
I might have remembered wrong. I accept your point.
Yusuf B Gursey
I know from documents that the Crimean Tatars at least used Ulu*gh*
Orda (Great Horde). I think during the Mongol period it was known as
the Qipchaq Ulus (ulus roughly being "nation").
am...@hotmail.com
Yes, but they emerged as an independent entity in the early XV (IIRC)
so their references were to the "post-imperial" times and terminology.
> I think during the Mongol period it was known as
> the Qipchaq Ulus (ulus roughly being "nation").
"Ulus", AFAIK, is not a nation but rather an administrative (or
heritage) entity, the territories that Genghis bequitted to his sons
were referencing as "Ulus" (Ulus Jagatai, Ulus Juchi, etc.) even if
their population did not represent anything that would qualify as a
nation (in the case of Juchi's sons, big part of their uluses was to
be conquered). Later, when the dust settled and some kind of the
national entities emerged on the conquered territories, the meaning of
the term changed.
Yusuf B Gursey
it comes from Turkic ulu*sh* originally IIRC refering to territories,
later the Mongols starting to think in terms of the people attached to
those territories and the meaning changed more towards "people". in
modern Khalkha Mongolian (uls) it translates bot "country" and
"nation" see Enc. of Islam II "Ulus"
<<
Ulus , a word in Turkic languages and Mongolian with several related
meanings.
Written ulush in ancient (pre-Mongolian empire) Turkic, it originally
had a geographic connotation, meaning “country” (and later even
“district”, “town” or “village”) as opposed to the term el “people”.
When the term came into Mongolian, changing its phonetics to ulus in
the process, it acquired the latter meaning. As such, it is found in
The secret history of the Mongols , referring to both the Mongol
peoples themselves (§ 272) and neighbouring nations who were absorbed
by them (§§ 110, 196). Essentially, a more exact translation would be
“the people subject to a certain ruler” (E. Haenisch, Wörterbuch zu
Mangholun Niuca Tobach’an..., Leipzig 1939, 163). A more comprehensive
and imperial variant is the later expression yeke mongghol ulus , “the
great Mongol nation”, found first on the seal of Güyük in 1246 ( ulus
here has been translated as “empire” by some scholars, but see I. de
Rachelwitz, Qan, qa’an and the seal of Güyüg, in Documenta Barbarorum,
ed. K. Sagaster and M. Weiers, Wiesbaden 1983, 274-5). A Turkish
variant of this formula exists on a coin minted at Tiflīs in 622/1244,
during the regency of Töregene Khātūn [q.v.], within the following
phrase: ulugh monkol ulūsh bek “commander of the great Mongol
nation” (D.M. Lang, Studies in the numismatics of Georgia in
Transcaucasia, ANS Numismatic Notes and Monographs no. 130, New York
1955, 35-7; but cf. his translation). It was also applied to the
various appanages given to the sons of Čingiz Khān [q.v.], but the
intended reference again was not to geographic entities per se but to
the nomads controlled by each house. These uluses became increasingly
autonomous of the Great Khān, and expressions such as ulus-i Djočī and
ulus-i Čaghatay became the way that these essentially independent
states were known by the Mongols (and their historians) (e.g. Ras̲h̲īd
Dīn, Djami el-Tévarikh, ed. E. Blochet, Leiden and London 1911, 111,
184). Thus the term ulus can often be translated henceforth as “state”
and this meaning remains in modern Mongolian, along with “people”,
“empire”, “country” and “dynasty” (F. Lessing, Mongolian-English
dictionary, Berkeley 1960, 873). The word returned to some of the
Turkic languages in the post-Mongol imperial period with the Mongolian
spelling and usage.
>>
(R. Amitai)
lorad
So says the highly nationalistic minded Old Chronicle (much
annotated)..
Unfortunately, 'varangi' makes best sense if Latvian root words 'var'
and 'varans' are considered.
'Var' means 'power (war)' and 'Varans' means '(war) hero' and
'nobleman'.
'To conquer' is 'uzvaret'.
I reject the false etymology of Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic
varęgŭ as being derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound
of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e.... in favor of a more
straightforward name related to Latvian 'varangis'.(nom sing)
The first capital of the Varangians was Novogorod where the so-called
'rhos' were invited by the council of elders in 862.
The name of the city council of elders was 'The 'Vetch'. And here
again 'vetch' only makes sense by using Latvian, where it translates
to 'the old men'.
It is irritating to see obvious Baltic correspondences being
overlooked in favor of parochial politics (now institutionalized - if
not entirely ossified).
Brian M. Scott
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in
<news:4a5bf403-1e93-4a1a...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
[...]
> Unfortunately, 'varangi' makes best sense if Latvian root words 'var'
> and 'varans' are considered.
> 'Var' means 'power (war)' and 'Varans' means '(war) hero' and
> 'nobleman'.
> 'To conquer' is 'uzvaret'.
> I reject the false etymology of Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic
> varęgŭ as being derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound
> of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e.... in favor of a more
> straightforward name related to Latvian 'varangis'.(nom sing)
Thereby displaying your carefully maintained ignorance and
parochial bias, both of which are all too familiar here. ON
<væringi> has cognates in OE <wærgenga> 'one seeking
protection, a stranger', Langobard. <waregang>, and OFrank.
<wargengus>.
> The first capital of the Varangians was Novogorod where the so-called
> 'rhos' were invited by the council of elders in 862.
> The name of the city council of elders was 'The 'Vetch'. And here
> again 'vetch' only makes sense by using Latvian, where it translates
> to 'the old men'.
The word is <veče>), Ukr. <vjiče>, Old Russian <věče>, OCS
<věšte> 'council', derived from PSlav. *větjati 'to say'
(OCS <věštati> 'say', Russ. <veščat'> 'broadcast, (obs.)
prophesy, (coll.) pontificate', akin to Old Prussian
<waitiāt> 'to say'. OPruss. <wayte> 'pronunciation' also
belongs here.
By the way, the first use of the term in the Primary
Chronicle seems to be at 127, 19 in the annal for the year
6505 (997) in connection with Bělagorod (Bilhorod Kyivsky).
> It is irritating to see obvious Baltic correspondences being
> overlooked in favor of parochial politics (now institutionalized - if
> not entirely ossified).
<splork!!>
Yusuf B Gursey
there is epigraphic evidence that they spoke Old Norse, fo rexample
the garphito in the Haghia Sophia
am...@hotmail.com
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:33:00 -0800 (PST), lorad
> <news:4a5bf403-1e93-4a1a...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
> in
> soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
> > Unfortunately, 'varangi' makes best sense if Latvian root words 'var'
> > and 'varans' are considered.
> > 'Var' means 'power (war)' and 'Varans' means '(war) hero' and
> > 'nobleman'.
Or "Varan (バラン, Baran?) is a kaiju that first appeared in Varan the
Unbelievable (1958). Physically, Varan resembles a giant reptile with
skin membranes between his arms and legs, allowing him to glide much
like a flying squirrel, and a horned head." It's being of Japanese
extraction is much more fun than Latvian option and even the "horned
head" can be accounted for.
Or one may settle for Varanus komodoensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/File:Komodo_dragon_Varanus_komodoensis_Ragunan_Zoo_2.JPG)
:-)
> > 'To conquer' is 'uzvaret'.
> > I reject the false etymology of Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic
> > varęgŭ as being derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound
> > of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e.... in favor of a more
> > straightforward name related to Latvian 'varangis'.(nom sing)
>
> Thereby displaying your carefully maintained ignorance and
> parochial bias, both of which are all too familiar here. ON
> <væringi> has cognates in OE <wærgenga> 'one seeking
> protection, a stranger', Langobard. <waregang>, and OFrank.
> <wargengus>.
>
> > The first capital of the Varangians was Novogorod where the so-called
> > 'rhos' were invited by the council of elders in 862.
> > The name of the city council of elders was 'The 'Vetch'. And here
> > again 'vetch' only makes sense by using Latvian, where it translates
> > to 'the old men'.
>
> The word is <veče>), Ukr. <vjiče>, Old Russian <věče>, OCS
> <věšte> 'council', derived from PSlav. *větjati 'to say'
> (OCS <věštati> 'say', Russ. <veščat'> 'broadcast, (obs.)
> prophesy, (coll.) pontificate', akin to Old Prussian
> <waitiāt> 'to say'. OPruss. <wayte> 'pronunciation' also
> belongs here.
>
Actually, "veche" was not "council of elders" but a public assembly
where ALL citizens had a right to participate. Of course, some
personages had been more equal than others.
> By the way, the first use of the term in the Primary
> Chronicle seems to be at 127, 19 in the annal for the year
> 6505 (997) in connection with Bělagorod (Bilhorod Kyivsky).
And Novgorod only 1016
igor
Logical, why would Slavs travel to far away Sweden to ask for rulers
when Latvia was right door, there is much more in common between
Baltic and Slavic languages and culture in general. No traces of Old
Norse in Russian apart from a few names.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Dec 10, 2:36 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:33:00 -0800 (PST), lorad
> > <lorad...@cs.com> wrote in
> > <news:4a5bf403-1e93-4a1a...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
> > in
> > soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
>
> > [...]
>
> > > Unfortunately, 'varangi' makes best sense if Latvian root words 'var'
> > > and 'varans' are considered.
> > > 'Var' means 'power (war)' and 'Varans' means '(war) hero' and
> > > 'nobleman'.
>
> Or "Varan (バラン, Baran?) is a kaiju that first appeared in Varan the
> Unbelievable (1958). Physically, Varan resembles a giant reptile with
> skin membranes between his arms and legs, allowing him to glide much
> like a flying squirrel, and a horned head." It's being of Japanese
> extraction is much more fun than Latvian option and even the "horned
> head" can be accounted for.
>
> Or one may settle for Varanus komodoensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/File:Komodo_dragon_Varanus_komodoensis_Ragunan_Zoo_2.JPG)
>
> :-)
>
>
that's from arabic waral (probably from a dialect pronounciation as
waran_
Brian M. Scott
<inbel...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:c09a6c3c-cba5-49a3...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com>
in
soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
[...]
> Logical, why would Slavs travel to far away Sweden to ask
> for rulers when Latvia was right door, there is much more
> in common between Baltic and Slavic languages and culture
> in general.
There were Scandinavians right next door, too: for example,
archaeology shows a major Swedish presence in Grobin,
Latvia, in the 8th century.
> No traces of Old Norse in Russian apart from a few names.
Not quite true: there are also a few words, including knut <
kn�tr 'a knot', krjuk < kr�kr 'a hook', grid' < gri�i 'a
servant'.
Brian
igor
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:03:16 -0800 (PST), igor
> <news:c09a6c3c-cba5-49a3...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com>
> in
> soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
> > Logical, why would Slavs travel to far away Sweden to ask
> > for rulers when Latvia was right door, there is much more
> > in common between Baltic and Slavic languages and culture
> > in general.
>
> There were Scandinavians right next door, too: for example,
> archaeology shows a major Swedish presence in Grobin,
> Latvia, in the 8th century.
>
> > No traces of Old Norse in Russian apart from a few names.
>
> Not quite true: there are also a few words, including knut <
> servant'.
>
> Brian
Interestg, I am a little biased, spent summers in Latvia for many
years in my childhood.
IMO Latvian and Russian people genetically and culturally much closer
then either of them to Scandinavians.
ADR
The term "Varangioi" is not a Greek word at all and I certainly did
not imply that it was. Obviously, the imperial bureaucracy utilized a
name for this guard that was related to what these people called
themselves. Of course, men of other ethnic groups served in that
Guard over the centuries, but until the mid 11th century it was
recruited heavily from the Norse.
> The first capital of the Varangians was Novogorod where the so-called
> 'rhos' were invited by the council of elders in 862.
> The name of the city council of elders was 'The 'Vetch'. And here
> again 'vetch' only makes sense by using Latvian, where it translates
> to 'the old men'.
>
> It is irritating to see obvious Baltic correspondences being
> overlooked in favor of parochial politics (now institutionalized - if
> not entirely ossified).
I do not know what political motives you are referring to here, but
the Nordic infiltration of the Baltic and the Russian river system was
a substantial effort and the presence of Norse in Novogorod hardly
negates their presence anywhere else in this large geographical area.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:03:16 -0800 (PST), igor
> <news:c09a6c3c-cba5-49a3...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com>
> in
> soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
>
> [...]
>
> > Logical, why would Slavs travel to far away Sweden to ask
> > for rulers when Latvia was right door, there is much more
> > in common between Baltic and Slavic languages and culture
> > in general.
>
> There were Scandinavians right next door, too: for example,
> archaeology shows a major Swedish presence in Grobin,
> Latvia, in the 8th century.
>
> > No traces of Old Norse in Russian apart from a few names.
>
> Not quite true: there are also a few words, including knut <
> servant'.
>
> Brian
actually what I remembered was from Stalin's (yes, you are not
misreading) "Marxism and Language" IIRC where he mentions some common
russian words that are taken as germanic in origin and sort of derides
linguists as implying that the slavs were not civilised enough to hve
those things. forgot the exact passage and what those words were.
am...@hotmail.com
Yusuf, sometimes I wonder if a sense of humor is something totally
alien to you (no offense).
am...@hotmail.com
Stalin's exercises in linguistics were part of the broader "Russian
Priority in Everything" campaign. His qualifications as scientist were
limited to the ability to do whatever he wants to the opponents.
On a broader historical perspective, this was just a continuation of
the XVIII century fight between the "varyangian" and "slavic" theory
of the roots of the Russian state. Stalin, by the obvious reasons,
adopted Lomonosov's position that the Slavs had their own statehood
and that Scandinavian influence was negligible. Lomonosov (and
Stalin's propaganda as well) extended this theory to the fighting
against the "evil Geman influence" in the Russian science (and, as far
as was politicaslly safe) in general. In the case of Lomonosov, this
was somewhat ironic because he studied in Germany, had German friends
and had been married to a German woman. Eventually, he found a strong
(even if not unreserved) supporter in the .... "truly Russian"
Catherine II.
am...@hotmail.com
Well, Latvia was a part of Russia since early XVIII (with a big
Russian population even now) so there was more cultural mixup than
between Russia and Sweden. Not sure if the same goes for the earlier
times. Not that <whatever closeness exists> resulted in the mutual
good feelings (I did not follow the recent development so perhaps some
miracle happened in this area).
Can't comment on genetical relations except as far as the Russian/
Soviet Empires are concerned.
António Marques
He's not taking it seriously, he just took the opportunity to mention where
'varanus' may come from.
Joachim Pense
> On a broader historical perspective, this was just a continuation of
> the XVIII century fight between the "varyangian" and "slavic" theory
> of the roots of the Russian state. Stalin, by the obvious reasons,
> adopted Lomonosov's position that the Slavs had their own statehood
> and that Scandinavian influence was negligible. Lomonosov (and
> Stalin's propaganda as well) extended this theory to the fighting
> against the "evil Geman influence" in the Russian science (and, as far
> as was politicaslly safe) in general. In the case of Lomonosov, this
> was somewhat ironic because he studied in Germany, had German friends
> and had been married to a German woman. Eventually, he found a strong
> (even if not unreserved) supporter in the .... "truly Russian"
> Catherine II.
What about Marx and Engels?
Joachim
am...@hotmail.com
ADR
Well, irrespective of the appearance of Nordic rule in Kiev and other
parts of today's Russia, it does not mean that there were not
organized groupings of Slavs in the area. In fact, the Sclaviniae
settlements in the Balkans of the 6th to the 8th century CE provide a
good idea of what slavic "states" would have resembled. There was a
hierarchical structure in these Sclaviniae and a rudimentary core
function of an organized group. There is no reason as to why Slavic
groups by the Dnieper or the Volga would not have had the same
structure. But the Norse offered substantially more and were capable
of greater levels of organization thus engineering a more modern
state, very much in the way that the Bulgarian kingdom in Balkans
absorbed and organized the Sclaviniae there.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Dec 10, 9:40 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
> > actually what I remembered was from Stalin's (yes, you are not
> > misreading) "Marxism and Language" IIRC where he mentions some common
> > russian words that are taken as germanic in origin and sort of derides
> > linguists as implying that the slavs were not civilised enough to hve
> > those things. forgot the exact passage and what those words were.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Stalin's exercises in linguistics were part of the broader "Russian
> Priority in Everything" campaign. His qualifications as scientist were
> limited to the ability to do whatever he wants to the opponents.
It was claimed here recently that Stalin actually did know something
about linguistics, and actually did write *Marxism and Problems in
Linguistics*, rather than simply put his name on an orthodox Soviet
exercise.
António Marques
The fact is that the piece is quite authoritavely written - would Stalin
commit his name to something he didn't have the ability to judge? It's not
like Ielena Ceaushescu looking for scientific prestige.
igor
The Baltic languages show closest relationship with the Slavic
languages, and are commonly reconstructed to have passed through
common Proto-Balto-Slavic stage, during which numerous Common Balto-
Slavic lexical, phonological, morphological and accentological
isoglosses developed.
am...@hotmail.com
AFAIK, this was not denied by the proponents of the "nordic" theory.
Their point, IIRC, was that it took <whoever> to organized these
"groupings" into a national state. BTW, the very legend/story/
<whatever> about invitation of Rurik and his brothers assumes
existence of a pretty big "groupong": city of Novgorod.
To give a balanced picture, Lomonosov's polemic with Muller (sp)
included the following argument: if the Slavic state of Russia was
created by the Norsemen, this means that it did not exist at the times
of Christ, which means that Apostol Andrew could not travel to the
Russian lands to preach Christianity, which means that he can't be a
saint-protector of Russia, which means that the Order of St. Andrew
(Russian highest order established by Peter I) is an absurdity, which
means criticism of Peter the Great, which means that this is something
requiring special attention of the Secret Chancellry.
Yusuf B Gursey
>
> Stalin's exercises in linguistics were part of the broader "Russian
> Priority in Everything" campaign. His qualifications as scientist were
> limited to the ability to do whatever he wants to the opponents.
I am not praising Stalin's qualifications (but he was interested in
languages and particularly of course, language policy, a field in
which by virtue of his position he was qualified to speak! :) , but
presumeably he got his information of Germanic words from scholarly
people (and this of course, didn't prevent him from criticiszing
them). I 'll look up hi spamphlet in the library tomorrow, to see what
those words were, if I remembered the passage well enough.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Dec 11, 9:48 am, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 9:40 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 10, 4:54 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:03:16 -0800 (PST), igor
> > > > <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > > <news:c09a6c3c-cba5-49a3...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com>
> > > > in
> > > > soc.history.ancient,soc.history,sci.lang,soc.history.medieval:
>
>
> > > > > No traces of Old Norse in Russian apart from a few names.
>
> > > > Not quite true: there are also a few words, including knut <
> > > > knútr 'a knot', krjuk < krókr 'a hook', grid' < griði 'a
> > > > servant'.
>
> > > > Brian
>
> > > actually what I remembered was from Stalin's (yes, you are not
> > > misreading) "Marxism and Language" IIRC where he mentions some common
> > > russian words that are taken as germanic in origin and sort of derides
> > > linguists as implying that the slavs were not civilised enough to hve
> > > those things. forgot the exact passage and what those words were.
>
> > Stalin's exercises in linguistics were part of the broader "Russian
> > Priority in Everything" campaign. His qualifications as scientist were
> > limited to the ability to do whatever he wants to the opponents.
>
> I am not praising Stalin's qualifications (but he was interested in
> languages and particularly of course, language policy, a field in
> which by virtue of his position he was qualified to speak! :) , but
> presumeably he got his information of Germanic words from scholarly
> people (and this of course, didn't prevent him from criticiszing
> them). I 'll look up hi spamphlet in the library tomorrow, to see what
> those words were, if I remembered the passage well enough.
memory must have played tricks as I couldn't find it in the
"canonical" anthology in pamphlet form. perhaps it was in a different
version or a political tract based on it.
Peter T. Daniels
Howie Aronson probably kept the Red Chinese bookshop on 53rd St. in
business by buying copies of *Marxism and Problems in Linguistics* to
hand out to everyone -- as class readings, as prizes in linguistics
contests -- they cost about 25c. The only place in the world that kept
Stalin's writings in print was Beijing. (I'm not sure I ever saw it in
Russian.)
Yusuf B Gursey
also I think in Albania (one of my library copies is from Tirana 1981)
the library also has it in Russian.
Trond Engen
> am...@hotmail.com (in sci.lang):
>
>> [...] Lomonosov (and Stalin's propaganda as well) extended this
>> theory to the fighting against the "evil Geman influence" in the
>> Russian science (and, as far as was politicaslly safe) in general.
>> In the case of Lomonosov, this was somewhat ironic because he
>> studied in Germany, had German friends and had been married to a
>> German woman. Eventually, he found a strong (even if not unreserved)
>> supporter in the .... "truly Russian" Catherine II.
>
> What about Marx and Engels?
I believe in Engels
-------------------
Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
und f�r die Arbeiter gibt es keine Wahl.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und ich meine Zeit daf�r versteh'.
Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein alten Traum, ein' neue Zeit,
viel besser als die Wirklichkeit.
Das Ziel ist in die Ferne, ich hab' sein Wort derweil.
ich gehe als im Dunkeln, jetzt denk' ich mir mein Teil.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und ich meine Zeit daf�r versteh'.
Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
und f�r die Arbeiter gibt es keine Wahl.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und ich meine Zeit daf�r versteh'.
Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
(2009-12-13 Andersson, Ulv�us, Engen)
[I had to teach myself German for this. Not very well, alas -- it took
heavy proofreading from my wife. But don't blame her. I went against her
advice on several points, e.g. all those apostrophes.]
--
Trond Engen
am...@hotmail.com
Yusuf B Gursey
googling I found only these dry statements concerning Norse loanwords
in Russian:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Old_Norse_language_-_Modern_descendants/id/1815986
Russian and Finnish also have a number of Norse loanwords;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_(people)
It has been suggested that the Vikings had some enduring influence in
Rus, as testified by loan words, such as yabeda "complaining
person" (from aembaetti "office"), skot "cattle" (from skattr "tax")
and knout (from knutr, "a knotty wood").[citation needed]
http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Norse
Russian, Finnish and Estonian also have a number of Norse loanwords;
this does not seem to count, as it is a Germanic loan in Proto-Slavic
and not specifically Russian:
http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_room/lord_lady.htm
Modern Russian xлeб ‘bread, loaf ‘ pronounced ‘chlyeb’ and probably
borrowed into Old Slavic from Proto-Germanic
Old Norse (language of the Vikings) hleifr ‘loaf of bread’
igor
Good link, did not find any statements deprecating Slavs.
Yusuf B Gursey
of course Stalin did not depreciate Slavs, what I remembered, perhaps
wrongly, was a statement accusing others of doing so. the issued
pamphlets contain secondary material, like Stalin's answers to
questions posed by other party members.
Joachim Pense
>
> I believe in Engels
> -------------------
>
> Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
> das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
> Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
> Ein alten Traum, ein' neue Zeit,
> viel besser als die Wirklichkeit.
> Das Ziel ist in die Ferne, ich hab' sein Wort derweil.
> ich gehe als im Dunkeln, jetzt denk' ich mir mein Teil.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
> Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
> das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
> Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
>
> [I had to teach myself German for this. Not very well, alas -- it took
> heavy proofreading from my wife. But don't blame her. I went against her
> advice on several points, e.g. all those apostrophes.]
>
You came really close to idiomatic German poetry! Let me try some fine
polishing, if you don't mind.
Ein kleiner Traum, ein kleines Lied,
das macht einen großen Unterschied.
Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit dem "Kapital",
und für die Arbeiter gibts keine Wahl.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist in jedem Ding ich seh.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und meine Zeit ich dafür versteh.
Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein alter Traum, eine neue Zeit,
viel besser als die Wirklichkeit.
Das Ziel ist in der Ferne, ich hab sein Wort derweil.
ich gehe wie im Dunkeln, jetzt denk ich mir mein Teil.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist in jedem Ding ich seh.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und meine Zeit ich dafür versteh.
Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleiner Traum, ein kleines Lied,
das macht einen großen Unterschied.
Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit dem "Kapital",
und für die Arbeiter gibts keine Wahl.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
ein Zeichen ist in jedem Ding ich seh.
Ich vertrau in Engels,
und meine Zeit ich dafür versteh'.
Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
Joachim
Surreyman
>
> Russian and Finnish also have a number of Norse loanwords;
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_(people)
>
> It has been suggested that the Vikings had some enduring influence in
> Rus, as testified by loan words, such as yabeda "complaining
> person" (from aembaetti "office"), skot "cattle" (from skattr "tax")
> and knout (from knutr, "a knotty wood").[citation needed]
>
> http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Norse
>
> Russian, Finnish and Estonian also have a number of Norse loanwords;
>
> this does not seem to count, as it is a Germanic loan in Proto-Slavic
> and not specifically Russian:
>
> http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_room/lord_lady.htm
>
> Modern Russian xлeб ‘bread, loaf ‘ pronounced ‘chlyeb’ and probably
> borrowed into Old Slavic from Proto-Germanic
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
That seems to prove that the Slavs occupied England for some time
too .................... :-))
Surreyman
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> Joachim Pense:
>
> > a...@hotmail.com (in sci.lang):
>
> >> [...] Lomonosov (and Stalin's propaganda as well) extended this
> >> theory to the fighting against the "evil Geman influence" in the
> >> Russian science (and, as far as was politicaslly safe) in general.
> >> In the case of Lomonosov, this was somewhat ironic because he
> >> studied in Germany, had German friends and had been married to a
> >> German woman. Eventually, he found a strong (even if not unreserved)
> >> supporter in the .... "truly Russian" Catherine II.
>
> > What about Marx and Engels?
>
> I believe in Engels
> -------------------
>
> Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
> das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
> Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
> Ein alten Traum, ein' neue Zeit,
> viel besser als die Wirklichkeit.
> Das Ziel ist in die Ferne, ich hab' sein Wort derweil.
> ich gehe als im Dunkeln, jetzt denk' ich mir mein Teil.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
> Ein kleinen Traum, ein kleines Lied,
> das macht ein grossen Unterschied.
> Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit Das Kapital,
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist im jeden Ding ich seh'.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
> Ein kleinen Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
>
> [I had to teach myself German for this. Not very well, alas -- it took
> heavy proofreading from my wife. But don't blame her. I went against her
> advice on several points, e.g. all those apostrophes.]
>
> --
> Trond Engen
:-) One of my favourites. I loved the way they did this in "Abugida:
The Musical"!
PaulJK
> On 13 Dec, 07:01, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 12, 5:03 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>>> memory must have played tricks as I couldn't find it in the
>>> "canonical" anthology in pamphlet form. perhaps it was in a different
>>> version or a political tract based on it.
>>
>> googling I found only these dry statements concerning Norse loanwords
>> in Russian:
>>
>> http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Old_Norse_language_-_Modern_desce...
>>
>> Russian and Finnish also have a number of Norse loanwords;
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_(people)
>>
>> It has been suggested that the Vikings had some enduring influence in
>> Rus, as testified by loan words, such as yabeda "complaining
>> person" (from aembaetti "office"), skot "cattle" (from skattr "tax")
>> and knout (from knutr, "a knotty wood").[citation needed]
>>
>> http://vikings.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Norse
>>
>> Russian, Finnish and Estonian also have a number of Norse loanwords;
>>
>> this does not seem to count, as it is a Germanic loan in Proto-Slavic
>> and not specifically Russian:
>>
>> http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_room/lord_lady.htm
>>
>> Modern Russian xлeб ‘bread, loaf ‘ pronounced ‘chlyeb’ and probably
>> borrowed into Old Slavic from Proto-Germanic
>>
>> Old Norse (language of the Vikings) hleifr ‘loaf of bread’
>> -
> too .................... :-))
> Surreyman
If they did they would have found it already settled by lorad's Latvians.
pjk
Yusuf B Gursey
wrote:
that doesn't follow, the word isn't slavic in origin but germanic.
>
> Surreyman
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen (in sci.lang):
>
>> I believe in Engels
>> -------------------
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> [I had to teach myself German for this. Not very well, alas -- it
>> took heavy proofreading from my wife. But don't blame her. I went
>> against her advice on several points, e.g. all those apostrophes.]
>
> You came really close to idiomatic German poetry! Let me try some
> fine polishing, if you don't mind.
Thank you, and not at all. I'm surprised it even survived.
> Ein kleiner Traum, ein kleines Lied,
> das macht einen großen Unterschied.
Hmm. 'Einen' doesn't fit the meter. What about "das macht uns einen
Wasserschied"?
I first had "..., ein kleiner Sang, der Höh'punkt meinem Bildungsgang",
but my wife wasn't sure about the dative construction (that I was so
proud of). And, anyway, 'Sang' seems to be obscure.
> Marx schenkt uns ein Wunder mit dem "Kapital",
> und für die Arbeiter gibts keine Wahl.
I first had "dem Kapital", but a Google search convinced me to change
it. I gather there's a tendency to treat the definite article in proper
names as undeclineable.
And I need a syllable for the lost 'es'. "... gibts mehr keine Wahl."
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist in jedem Ding ich seh.
My wife: "I'm supposed to know that, but it's just too illogical."
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> und meine Zeit ich dafür versteh.
But how do I knead it into the meter without getting all artificial?
"und ich meine zeit dafür versteh"?
> Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
>
> Ein alter Traum, eine neue Zeit,
> viel besser als die Wirklichkeit.
The -e in 'eine' breaks the meter but I think it's weak enough not to be
a problem.
> Das Ziel ist in der Ferne, ich hab sein Wort derweil.
> ich gehe wie im Dunkeln, jetzt denk ich mir mein Teil.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> ein Zeichen ist in jedem Ding ich seh.
> Ich vertrau in Engels,
> und meine Zeit ich dafür versteh.
> Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
> Ein kleiner Traum gibt Hoffnung Raum.
(My wife says she would have spotted the case errors if I hadn't asked
her at two o'clock in the morning.)
--
Trond Engen
Trond Engen
> On Dec 13, 2:33 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> I believe in Engels
>> -------------------
>>
>> [...]
>
> :-) One of my favourites. I loved the way they did this in "Abugida:
> The Musical"!
Ah, of course. I got stuck searching for a pun on "Abba, der" and "A.
Baader".
--
Trond Engen