Cantonese Romanization Charts
Gigi
following systems: Yale, LSHK, Pinyin. Ideally, these charts would
break down the sounds by initials, finals, vowels and tones and would
include sample words from Cantonese and English (English for
pronunciation purposes).
If these charts do not exist, could someone please tell me what the
vowels are in the Yale system, along with their English pronuncation
equivalents?
Thanks very much.
Dylan Sung
Gigi wrote in message ...
:Hello. I would like to find Cantonese romanization charts for the
The following might help you :
http://www.hku.hk/linguist/lshk/Jyutping/index.htm
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~windharp/ctroma.htm
http://www.paris-hongkong.com/articles/20001217yale/
Cheers,
Dyl.
Gigi
Thanks very much Dylan,
The second link provided what I was lookin for! Now I am just
wondering which system is the most widely used today, and which system
are we moving towards? I am thinking that the trend would be toward
Pinyin, but that is just my guess.
Thanks,
Gigi
Dylan Sung
Gigi wrote in message ...
news:<a89l8q$iof$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
:> Gigi wrote in message ...
:> :Hello. I would like to find Cantonese romanization charts for the
:> :following systems: Yale, LSHK, Pinyin. Ideally, these charts would
:>
:> http://www.hku.hk/linguist/lshk/Jyutping/index.htm
:>
:> http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~windharp/ctroma.htm
:>
:> http://www.paris-hongkong.com/articles/20001217yale/
:>
:>
:
:The second link provided what I was lookin for! Now I am just
:wondering which system is the most widely used today, and which system
:are we moving towards? I am thinking that the trend would be toward
:Pinyin, but that is just my guess.
:
I think that Yale has quite wide currency now, however, in mainland Chinese
publications that I've come across, the guangdonghua pinyin fangan is most
often encountered. I books published in HK, you find Sydney Lau and LSHK
transcriptions used, the latter more and more. In older publications you
find some missionary romanisations, for instance Roy T. Cowle's A Pocket
Dictionary of Cantonese.
I'd like to suggest Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook, since that is
quite informative too. The ISBN is 086442-645-3.
Cheers,
Dyl.
Thomas Chan
Dylan Sung <dylanwh...@ukgateway.net.delete> wrote:
> Gigi wrote in message ...
>:wondering which system is the most widely used today, and which system
>:are we moving towards? I am thinking that the trend would be toward
>:Pinyin, but that is just my guess.
>
> I think that Yale has quite wide currency now, however, in mainland Chinese
> publications that I've come across, the guangdonghua pinyin fangan is most
> often encountered. I books published in HK, you find Sydney Lau and LSHK
> transcriptions used, the latter more and more. In older publications you
> find some missionary romanisations, for instance Roy T. Cowle's A Pocket
> Dictionary of Cantonese.
I agree with the above, and add that there are also some HK-published
books using S.L. Wong's system or a variation of it.
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> I think that Yale has quite wide currency now,
I agree. Most people who care about it (mainly authors of phrasebooks
for foreigners) would use Yale, or at least provide a comparison chart
against Yale. I think the HK government is also using Yale, or a
slight variant, when it Romanizes the street names, shop names, and
people's names (for use in various ID documents).
Personally, I find like the Romanization scheme by LSHK the most.
It's the most reasonable one, I think. (Except that "ch" could be
actually replaced by "c" for conciseness. "Ch" also misleads
Westerners into pronouncing that consonant with rounded, protruded
lips -- a typical "foreigner" accent.)
Dylan> however, in
Dylan> mainland Chinese publications that I've come across, the
Dylan> guangdonghua pinyin fangan is most often encountered.
National policy, maybe. But I hate this Pinyin Fangan. It is simply
unreasonable. E.g., it uses both "z" and "j" for the same consonant,
solely to make it "look like Mandarin Pinyin". For the same reason,
they invented funny but unintuitive ways to represent many Cantonese
vowels, like "e^" and "e'" ("e" with accent marks). "To resemble
Mandarin Pinyin as closely as possible" is one of the design
principles of Guangdonghua Pinyin Fangan. Well... but this just makes
it unnecessarily complicated (as in using "z" and "j" for the same
sound) and ugly (as in the representation of many vowel sounds). Why
must Guangdonghua Pinyin Fangan resemble Mandarin Pinyin, when it is
for transcribing Cantonese not Mandarin? This basic principle is
simply irrational. It just makes the scheme more confusing.
I
Dylan> I'd like to suggest Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook,
Dylan> since that is quite informative too. The ISBN is
Dylan> 086442-645-3.
Yeah! Lonely Planet's phrasebooks for all languages (and also their
guide books) are quite good in general. Just a little bit expensive
(esp. when you buy it in HK, where the price can be 40% higher than
the equivalent price marked in USD on the back cover). But it's worth
the price.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Thomas Chan
Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>>>>>> "Dylan" == Dylan Sung <dylanwhs.delete.@ukgateway.net.delete> writes:
> Dylan> I think that Yale has quite wide currency now,
>
> I agree. Most people who care about it (mainly authors of phrasebooks
> for foreigners) would use Yale, or at least provide a comparison chart
> against Yale. I think the HK government is also using Yale, or a
> slight variant, when it Romanizes the street names, shop names, and
> people's names (for use in various ID documents).
Most romanization systems for Cantonese look alike after awhile (except
for weird ones like the "Pinyin" one), but what the HK government uses
surely isn't like Yale, but more like some kind of early 20th c. system.
e.g., it distinguishes two places of articulation for the sibilants,
("tsung" vs. "chung"), and also preserves the apical vowel "z" ("tsz").
It also seems like aspiration is not marked, unlike Yale, where it is
marked by explicit change in the letter used. The HK government's
system (is there a name or specification for it?) is actually more
similar to systems such as the 1930's Meyer-Wempe scheme (the
precursor to Yale in the West).
> Personally, I find like the Romanization scheme by LSHK the most.
> It's the most reasonable one, I think. (Except that "ch" could be
> actually replaced by "c" for conciseness. "Ch" also misleads
> Westerners into pronouncing that consonant with rounded, protruded
> lips -- a typical "foreigner" accent.)
LSHK's Jyutping scheme does actually use <c>, rather than <ch>. <c>
actually fools a lot of Westerners (cf., what happens to Hanyu Pinyin
<c>), because they think it is /*k/. I find Jyutping very similar to
Yale, though--the two are closer than any other two romanization schemes.
> I
> Dylan> I'd like to suggest Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook,
> Dylan> since that is quite informative too. The ISBN is
> Dylan> 086442-645-3.
>
> Yeah! Lonely Planet's phrasebooks for all languages (and also their
> guide books) are quite good in general. Just a little bit expensive
> (esp. when you buy it in HK, where the price can be 40% higher than
> the equivalent price marked in USD on the back cover). But it's worth
> the price.
Aren't the Lonely Planet books Australian? How do those prices compare?
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Lee Sau Dan
>> Yeah! Lonely Planet's phrasebooks for all languages (and also
>> their guide books) are quite good in general. Just a little
>> bit expensive (esp. when you buy it in HK, where the price can
>> be 40% higher than the equivalent price marked in USD on the
>> back cover). But it's worth the price.
Thomas> Aren't the Lonely Planet books Australian? How do those
Thomas> prices compare?
Yes, but they're also sold worldwide. The price tag printed on the
back cover usually show the price in USD, CAD, AUD as well as GBP.
These prices are roughly the same, just in different currencies. The
price in HKD is not shown there, and HK bookstores usually stick their
price label to cover this printed price tag. (But different
bookstores do offer the same LP book at the same price.) Even so, I
can always read through the label and find out how much it is in USD.
Since HKD is pegged to USD (7.8HKD = 1USD), I can calculate the
equivalent HKD price and find that the price offered by the bookstores
are usually 30% higher.
So, when possible, I'll wait until I've a trip abroad to find these
books. Last time I wanted to buy an LP guide for Germany, I waited
until I had a trip to Guam, where I could buy at the USD price (and
Guam doesn't has sales tax -- a bonus to me!).
Sebastian Hew
> Most romanization systems for Cantonese look alike after awhile (except
> for weird ones like the "Pinyin" one), but what the HK government uses
> surely isn't like Yale, but more like some kind of early 20th c. system.
> e.g., it distinguishes two places of articulation for the sibilants,
> ("tsung" vs. "chung"), and also preserves the apical vowel "z" ("tsz").
> It also seems like aspiration is not marked, unlike Yale, where it is
> marked by explicit change in the letter used. The HK government's
> system (is there a name or specification for it?) is actually more
> similar to systems such as the 1930's Meyer-Wempe scheme (the
> precursor to Yale in the West).
I think the HK government had adopted a system whereby aspiration was marked
by an apostrophe, but because punctiation was inconvenient in such places as
street names, they were dropped altogether.
> LSHK's Jyutping scheme does actually use <c>, rather than <ch>. <c>
> actually fools a lot of Westerners (cf., what happens to Hanyu Pinyin
> <c>), because they think it is /*k/. I find Jyutping very similar to
> Yale, though--the two are closer than any other two romanization schemes.
Speaking of 'wierd' romanisation schemes, I think jyutping is fairly wierd.
It is probably the closest one to IPA, but as far as Cantonese romanisations
go, its quite strange.
> > Yeah! Lonely Planet's phrasebooks for all languages (and also their
> > guide books) are quite good in general. Just a little bit expensive
> > (esp. when you buy it in HK, where the price can be 40% higher than
> > the equivalent price marked in USD on the back cover). But it's worth
> > the price.
>
> Aren't the Lonely Planet books Australian? How do those prices compare?
Yes, the Lonely Planet books are published in Footscray, Victoria. Compared
to the US and the UK, the Australian list prices are generally about 10-20%
lower. I have no idea about HK, though.
Sebastian.
Gigi
really appreciated. I am now wondering if the Lonely Planet book uses
the Yale system or something else. Specifically, I am looking for a
dictionary/word list book that lists common Cantonese words by tones;
however, it has to be in a "romanized" form (i.e., no Chinese
characters) since I neither read nor write the language. I am looking
for such a book because I am a Speech-Langugage Pathologist who is
working with a child who is not yet able to differentiate words by
tone. I am hoping that having a list of words categorized tone would
help me to systematically work on tone production with him.
Dylan, I have already asked you this about this type of book before,
but I am wondering if the others have any other suggestions. I
apologize for not listing the title that Dylan suggested to me since I
cannot access my email at this time.
Thanks again.
Gigi
Tak To
>
> Thanks to all who have taken the time out to reply. Your input is
> really appreciated. I am now wondering if the Lonely Planet book uses
> the Yale system or something else. Specifically, I am looking for a
> dictionary/word list book that lists common Cantonese words by tones;
> however, it has to be in a "romanized" form (i.e., no Chinese
> characters) since I neither read nor write the language. I am looking
> for such a book because I am a Speech-Langugage Pathologist who is
> working with a child who is not yet able to differentiate words by
> tone. I am hoping that having a list of words categorized tone would
> help me to systematically work on tone production with him.
I am rather curious to learn about the details of this research,
since conventional wisdom (and buttressed by my personal experience
with my own kids and kids of friends and relatives) is that children
learn to distinguish tones in sounds before learning to ignore some
of the differences. Is the L1 of the child a tone language? And how
was it determined that this child cannot differentiate words by
tones?
Tak
--
-----------------------------------------------------------+----------
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.edu.-
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the .- to get my real email addr
Dylan Sung
Gigi wrote in message ...
After a quick check on what I wrote to you back on just after mid-January, I
recommended Roy T. Cowles' dictionary as mentioned previously on this
thread.
Parker Po-Fei Huang's "Cantonese Dictionary" published by Yale University
Press, ISBN 0-300-01293-4 is probably out of print now. It is quite a hefty
book, and it is romanised with the majority of entries with a Chinese
character equivalent. The latter is probably a useful for cross checking
with those informants who have Chinese character-ability.
R. Bruce's Teach Yourself Cantonese ISBN 0-340-26438-1, my copy dated 1990
at the fifteenth edition, is sadly not in print today, so you may like to
see if you can acquire it via your local library. The lessons are all in
romanised form, not Yale though. Since each leasson deals with a different
topic, it may be useful, but not so much as easy to access individual
syllables as an alphabetically listed romanised dictionary...
Cheers,
Dyl,.
Thomas Chan
> Thanks to all who have taken the time out to reply. Your input is
> really appreciated. I am now wondering if the Lonely Planet book uses
> the Yale system or something else. Specifically, I am looking for a
> dictionary/word list book that lists common Cantonese words by tones;
> however, it has to be in a "romanized" form (i.e., no Chinese
> characters) since I neither read nor write the language. I am looking
> for such a book because I am a Speech-Langugage Pathologist who is
> working with a child who is not yet able to differentiate words by
> tone. I am hoping that having a list of words categorized tone would
> help me to systematically work on tone production with him.
For Cantonese->English dictionaries organized by syllable and then
tone, I would recommend Sidney Lau's _A Practical Cantonese-English
Dictionary_ (Hong Kong: The Government Printer, 1977). There's no
ISBN. I don't know how easy it is to purchase, but a number of
university libraries carry it. It doesn't tell you which words
are most frequent, but as it's the companion dictionary to a series
of textbooks by the same author, one can be confident the material
isn't obscure.
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Gigi
> I am rather curious to learn about the details of this research,
> since conventional wisdom (and buttressed by my personal experience
> with my own kids and kids of friends and relatives) is that children
> learn to distinguish tones in sounds before learning to ignore some
> of the differences. Is the L1 of the child a tone language? And how
> was it determined that this child cannot differentiate words by
> tones?
>
> Tak
Tak,
You are indeed correct in your observation that children develop
correct tone production much earlier than other speech and language
milestones (e.g., the correct production of /s/). What I have
described in my post is not research per se, but merely my clinical
experience. The boy to which I am referring is just one of the
Cantonese-speaking kids on my caseload. His first language is
Cantonese, and I only determined that he had difficulties with tone
production through subjective listening. This is one of the reason
I'm so interesting in finding a source that lists Cantonese words by
tone. I'd like to be able to systematically assess tone production.
As well, having such a list would help me plan for intervention.
Gigi
Lee Sau Dan
Gigi> Specifically, I am looking for a dictionary/word list book
Gigi> that lists common Cantonese words by tones;
By tones? You mean you want the list to be sorted according to tones?
I guess you can't find such a list (unless you write a program to
extract it from some input methods and then do the sorting). Such a
list wouldn't be of much usefulness.
A closer match would be the rhyme books, such as Guangyun. Guangyun
orders Cantonese syllables (the base morpheme units) according to
final+tone. Although it is based on middle Chinese pronunciations, it
works quite well for Cantonese.
Gigi> however, it has to be in a "romanized" form (i.e., no
Gigi> Chinese characters) since I neither read nor write the
Gigi> language.
This is more difficult for Guangyun.
(BTW, that you can't read Chinese doesn't mean it has to be in a
Romanized form. This reason by itself is not sufficient. You need a
Romanized form because Roman letters are the only alphabet that you
know. There is no reason Cantonese can't be transcripted in IPA, the
Arabic alphabet or the Cyrillic alphabet. Other possibilites include
modified ZhuyinFuhao (a.k.a. Bopomofo alphabet) and Korean Hangul
modified.)
Gigi> I am looking
Gigi> for such a book because I am a Speech-Langugage Pathologist
Gigi> who is working with a child who is not yet able to
Gigi> differentiate words by tone.
How old is he? Is he a native speaker of Cantonese? I've never heard
of such instances. That's news to me. So, that's *real*
tone-deafness!
Gigi> I am hoping that having a list
Gigi> of words categorized tone would help me to systematically
Gigi> work on tone production with him.
How are you going to use the list? *You* read it out and let him
listen? Then, do you speak Cantonese? If so, why can't you come up
with such a list yourself? You may start by counting: 0, 1, ..., 9
already covers all the 9 tones (the checked syllables counted as 3
separate tones) in Cantonese!
Gigi
about:
Chinese-English Dictionary: Cantonese in Yale Romaization, Mandarin in
Pinyin
by Chik Han Man (Editor), Ng Lam Sim Yuk (Editor), Chik Hon Man
Paperback - 512 pages 2 edition (December 2000)
The Chinese University Press; ISBN: 9622019226
I just found this one using the Amazon.com search.
Thanks,
Gigi
Thomas Chan
> Thanks Dylan and Thomas for your book suggestions. Does anyone know
> about:
> Chinese-English Dictionary: Cantonese in Yale Romaization, Mandarin in
> Pinyin
> by Chik Han Man (Editor), Ng Lam Sim Yuk (Editor), Chik Hon Man
> Paperback - 512 pages 2 edition (December 2000)
> The Chinese University Press; ISBN: 9622019226
Yes, that dictionary is okay. As the title indicates, it uses
Yale romanization, and is pretty recent (2000). The only downside
is that it is arranged in traditional Chinese order by the head
character by the radical and stroke system, although there are
indices that are sorted by syllable and tone--that just means you'll
have to do an extra lookup step to compile your lists of minimal/semi-
minimal pairs. Again, there's no frequency information, and I'd
said the coverage includes more advanced/obscure vocabulary than
the Sidney Lau dictionary did; for a child. Unlike the Sidney Lau
dictionary, this one is more aimed at writing, and does not include
any colloquial vocabulary (which a child is more likely to know).
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Tak To
TT> I am rather curious to learn about the details of this research,
TT> since conventional wisdom (and buttressed by my personal experience
TT> with my own kids and kids of friends and relatives) is that children
TT> learn to distinguish tones in sounds before learning to ignore some
TT> of the differences. Is the L1 of the child a tone language? And how
TT> was it determined that this child cannot differentiate words by
TT> tones?
Gigi wrote:
Gg> You are indeed correct in your observation that children develop
Gg> correct tone production much earlier than other speech and language
Gg> milestones (e.g., the correct production of /s/).
Hm, actually I was referring to perception, not production.
Gg> What I have described in my post is not research per se, but merely
Gg> my clinical experience. The boy to which I am referring is just one
Gg> of the Cantonese-speaking kids on my caseload. His first language is
Gg> Cantonese, and I only determined that he had difficulties with tone
Gg> production through subjective listening.
Does he has any problem in tone perception?
Is his sentential tonal pattern that of English or Cantonese?
One possibility is that he has adopted an "foreign accent" of Cantonese
(i.e., speaking Cantonese as if a foreigner would speak it) which is
characterized by confusion in tones. This is not uncommon among young
immigrants. As an extreme case I personally know of a woman who move
from Hong Kong to England in her mid teens but somehow has an English
accent when she speak Cantonese, which she does not do very often in
her daily life. Moreover, her "accent" will slowly diminishes as she
speaks more Cantonese. Another way to describe this phenomenon is that
even though Cantonese is her mother tongue, her fluency somehow
regresses after she moves to a new environment.
Gg> This is one of the reason I'm so interesting in finding a source
Gg> that lists Cantonese words by tone. I'd like to be able to
Gg> systematically assess tone production. As well, having such a
Gg> list would help me plan for intervention.
One thing to remember is that Cantonese has (1) irregular "tone sandhi"
and (2) allotones. So perhaps you would need a native informant
to assess his tone production correctly.
Tak
Gigi
It's interesting that you raise the point about tone perception. To
be honest, I do not know if this is problem as well. I was hoping
that having a list of of words by tone would help me systematically
assess this. If it turns out to be a problem, I would address this
deficit first.
I know exactly what you mean by having a "foreign accent" of
Cantonese. I too, am like the woman you know who moved from HK to
England. I moved from HK to Canada when I was just four years old, so
of course my Cantonese is quite weak. I definitely speak with a
foreigner's accent! However, my Cantonese is strong enough (I think)
to enable me to judge quality of tone production in young children.
This particular boy, by the way, mainly speaks Cantonese so his tone
production problems do not stem from his exposure to English.
Interesting enough, however, when he does speak a few English words
(learned from t.v. etc.), his prosody seems fine.
Gigi
P.S. What do you mean by "irregular tone sandhi"?
Gigi
Thanks Thomas for the description of the Chik Han Man (Ed.)
dictionary. Perhaps the Sidney Lau book would be more appropriate for
me.
Lee Sau Dan,
Yes, I want a book that sorts the words according to tones, but as you
say, it would probably be impossible to find exactly that type of list
unless I sort the words myself. Therefore, I would like a book that
lists syllables and then further categorizes it by tone:
For example:
SI
si(1) = poetry
si(2) = history
si (3) to try
si (4) = time
etc.
Perhaps those Guangyuan books might be of use then? I am not sure
what you mean by middle Chinese prounuciations though. And you are
correct in saying that not being able to read Chinese does not exclude
other forms of transcription. I do know how to read IPA so that will
do as well.
Now about the boy I'm treating: he is 3 years old and a native
Cantonese speaker. However, I cannot say that he is "tone-deaf" since
I have not yet assessed his tone perception. It is quite possible
that he can DISTINGUISH yet not be able to PRODUCE differentiated
tones.
And I will be the one who will use this list. I do speak Cantonese,
although not well since I moved from HK to Canada when I was just four
years old. Actually I have come up with my own word lists and can
email you a copy if you are interested. However, I have found that it
just takes me too long to sit and think up of all the words since my
fluency in Cantonese is limited. I also find it hard to figure out
the corresponding tones. I am hoping that if I just had a "book" or
some sort of list, I could use the words to assess and treat this
problem. By assessing, what I would probably do is to say words that
differed only by tone (i.e., same initial and final) then have the boy
choose the picture which matched the word. This would determine if he
was able to perceive tone differences at all. If he is, the next step
would be to determine if he has difficulties producing all the tones
or just some of them. This would probably just be a picture
identification or imitation task. With the results of the testing, I
would know whether I needed to work on discrimination first or just
start with production. Hope this answers your questions!
By the way, are you in Freiburg? I was there a couple of summers ago
visiting a friend who is doing her post-doc at the Max Plank
Institute. I really loved that place!
Gigi
Sebastian Hew
> I'd like to suggest Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook, since that is
> quite informative too. The ISBN is 086442-645-3.
My friend bought Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook today, and while we we
standing in line, I had a quick look at the book. I happened to look as the
insects section, and I noticed that the translation it gives for 'earthworm'
and 'ant' were 蚯蚓 and 螞蟻 respectively. These translations seem very
formal and Mandarin to me, not to mention a little out of place in a
colloquial Cantonese phrase-book, which leads me to question its accuracy,
or rather, suitability.
Sebastian.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> As an extreme case I personally know of a woman who move from
Tak> Hong Kong to England in her mid teens but somehow has an
Tak> English accent when she speak Cantonese, which she does not
Tak> do very often in her daily life. Moreover, her "accent" will
Tak> slowly diminishes as she speaks more Cantonese.
.........^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can't get what you mean by this. Do you mean that whenever you have
a separate *session* of conversation with her, her accent diminishes
within that session. And when you start another session, she starts
from accented again, and then that again gradually diminishes?
It's funny. Maybe, she needs longer time to "recalibrate" the tone
contours in her mental model. :)
Tak> Another way to describe this phenomenon is that even though
Tak> Cantonese is her mother tongue, her fluency somehow regresses
Tak> after she moves to a new environment.
If you're referring to fluency in terms of vocabulary and possibly
grammar, then that is not too hard to believe. It is quite common,
for example, for such people to use foreign terms to talk about things
around. For the sound system, it is not easy to drop the native
accent and acquire a foreign accent. This is especially true for
people who've been using a language until mid-teens.
Does she speak English with any accents?
Tak> One thing to remember is that Cantonese has (1) irregular
Tak> "tone sandhi" and (2) allotones. So perhaps you would need a
Tak> native informant to assess his tone production correctly.
Yeah. (2) is easier, as you can find a linguist specializing in
Cantonese or Chinese dialectology and ask him for a handful of useful
information. (1) is the most difficult. Tone sandhi is irregular is
irregular. The only rule here is that it isn't governed by any
mathematical rules, but by conventions.
Lee Sau Dan
Gigi> This particular boy, by the way, mainly speaks Cantonese so
Gigi> his tone production problems do not stem from his exposure
Gigi> to English. Interesting enough, however, when he does speak
Gigi> a few English words (learned from t.v. etc.), his prosody
Gigi> seems fine.
Maybe, it is also helpful to examine how he perceives and reproduces
"tones" in English. When listening, is he able to tell "Yes?" from
"Yes!"? "Really?" from "Really!"? Is he able to reproduce these
differences correctly?
For perception of Cantonese tones, you may try some minimal pairs on
him. E.g. check if he always correctly distinguish "Monday" (in
Cantonese) from "Sunday", which differ only by tone (and hence easily
confused when whispering).
Gigi> P.S. What do you mean by "irregular tone sandhi"?
Do you know what "tone sandhi" mean, in the first place? It means the
shift of tone in certain syllables under certain contexts. E.g. "to
night" ought to be "gum1 maan5", but more often than not, it is
pronounced as "gum1 maan1". "Daughter" ought to be "noey5", but
actually pronounced as "noey2".
Unlike other Chinese languages, where the sandhi is governed by pretty
regular rules and highly predictable from phonetic or grammatical
contexts, Cantonese tone sandhi is irregular. It is simply impossible
to predict when and how to shift the tones just from phonetic or
grammatical analyses. Each word has its own rule of sandhi-ing.
Highly irregular.
Thomas Chan
> Yes, I want a book that sorts the words according to tones, but as you
> say, it would probably be impossible to find exactly that type of list
> unless I sort the words myself. Therefore, I would like a book that
> lists syllables and then further categorizes it by tone:
> For example:
> SI
> si(1) = poetry
> si(2) = history
> si (3) to try
> si (4) = time
> etc.
This is what Sidney Lau's 1977 dictionary is like. About half a
century ago, there was also Bernard F. Meyer and Theodore F. Wempe's _The
Student's Cantonese-English Dictionary_, 3rd ed. (New York: Field
Afar Press, 1947), which is also arranged by syllable and then tone.
While it includes colloquial words that a child would know, it also
contains a lot of literary words. However, it was originally written
in the 1930s, and contains a number of distinctions no longer or
never made in today's standard Cantonese. (Many of the older
English dictionaries are suspected to be overly influenced by a 18th c.
(?) Cantonese dictionary by a Shunde author.)
I realize you might have some trouble getting hold of Sidney Lau's
dictionary; you might want contact stores such as (in no particular
order):
Eastwind Books
http://www.eastwindsf.com/ (San Francisco location)
http://www.ewbb.com/ (Berkeley location)
China Books and Periodicals
http://www.chinabooks.com/
Cheng Tsui
http://www.cheng-tsui.com/
> Perhaps those Guangyuan books might be of use then? I am not sure
> what you mean by middle Chinese prounuciations though. And you are
> correct in saying that not being able to read Chinese does not exclude
> other forms of transcription. I do know how to read IPA so that will
> do as well.
Guangyun is AD 1011 dictionary containing 26,194 characters. Too old,
too literary (even for native speakers), and no English. If you really
want this sort of thing, there are shorter lists used for dialectology
surveys such as the one in Anne Oi-kan Yue-Hashimoto's (I give the most
expanded version of her name, since she publishes under various names)
_Studies in the Yue Dialects I: Phonology of Cantonese_ (Cambridge:
Cambridge University Press, 1972). One of the chapters has a list of
syllables and tones and words corresponding to them (but in Chinese),
while another chapter has a list arranged by traditional phonological
categories according to Middle Chinese, and showing the modern Cantonese
reflexes (which are not always regular), but again, also only in Chinese.
(By "in Chinese", I mean the lists-- the book is written in English.)
I don't think you really want this sort of thing, though--these surveys
are usually aimed at highly literate individuals ("find the old
schoolteacher in the village over there and ask him how he reads each of
these characters over the next few days").
For one-stop information on Cantonese phonology, I'd recommend both
the Yue-Hashimoto book listed above, and also Robert S. Bauer and
Paul K. Benedict's _Modern Cantonese Phonology_ (Berlin: Mouton de
Gruyter, 1997). Both are very comprehensive, and contain various
types of useful lists, particularly the latter (which has English
glosses, I recall).
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Lee Sau Dan
Sebastian> My friend bought Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook
Sebastian> today, and while we we standing in line, I had a quick
Sebastian> look at the book. I happened to look as the insects
Sebastian> section, and I noticed that the translation it gives
Sebastian> for 'earthworm' and 'ant' were were 蚯蚓 and 螞蟻
Sebastian> respectively.
They're correct. These are very native terms HK people use, except
that being a monosyllabic-dominant language, we usually prefer to just
say 蟻.
Sebastian> These translations seem very formal and
Sebastian> Mandarin to me, not to mention a little out of place in
Sebastian> a colloquial Cantonese phrase-book, which leads me to
Sebastian> question its accuracy, or rather, suitability.
It's pretty accurate. When used standalone, 螞蟻 is as vali as 蟻.
In sentences, we would tend to use the monosyllabic version, as it is
more concise and the context will provide extra information to
compensate for the "lost" syllable.
Earthworm is always 蚯蚓. I don't know any other ways to say it in
Cantonese.
Tak To
SH> My friend bought Lonely Planet's Cantonese Phrasebook today, and while
SH> we we standing in line, I had a quick look at the book. I happened to
SH> look as the insects section, and I noticed that the translation it
SH> gives for 'earthworm' and 'ant' were 蚯蚓 and 螞蟻 respectively. These
SH> translations seem very formal and Mandarin to me, not to mention a
SH> little out of place in a colloquial Cantonese phrase-book, which
SH> leads me to question its accuracy, or rather, suitability.
[The Chinese characters in the above quote might not come out correctly
after they have been processed by my browser, but I can read them fine
in the original post.]
I think the book is correct on "earthworm". For "ant" it should be just
the second character for colloquial ussage.
Just curious; what do you think "earthworm" should be? The only other
term I know is "huang2 quan3" (yellow + dog) and I have not heard that
one used for ages (and only from the older generations).
Tak
--
Tak To
Gg> [...] my Cantonese is strong enough (I think) to enable me to judge
Gg> quality of tone production in young children. This particular boy,
Gg> by the way, mainly speaks Cantonese so his tone production problems
Gg> do not stem from his exposure to English. Interesting enough,
Gg> however, when he does speak a few English words (learned from t.v.
Gg> etc.), his prosody seems fine.
I aim intrigued. Please tell us some of your results and observations
in the future. Thanks in advance.
Gg> P.S. What do you mean by "irregular tone sandhi"?
Sau Dan has explained this quite well. The bottom line is that
dictionary alone might not give you the exact tones when used in
a colloquial utterance.
Tak
Tak To
Tak> As an extreme case I personally know of a woman who move from
Tak> Hong Kong to England in her mid teens but somehow has an
Tak> English accent when she speak Cantonese, which she does not
Tak> do very often in her daily life. Moreover, her "accent" will
Tak> slowly diminishes as she speaks more Cantonese
LSD>.......^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> I can't get what you mean by this. Do you mean that whenever you have
LSD> a separate *session* of conversation with her, her accent diminishes
LSD> within that session. And when you start another session, she starts
LSD> from accented again, and then that again gradually diminishes?
Something like that. For example, when she comes to the US to visit
for a week, in the first couple days her accent would be a bit thicker
than by the time she leaves at the end of the week.
LSD> It's funny. Maybe, she needs longer time to "recalibrate" the tone
LSD> contours in her mental model. :)
Could be.
Tak> Another way to describe this phenomenon is that even though
Tak> Cantonese is her mother tongue, her fluency somehow regresses
Tak> after she moves to a new environment.
LSD> If you're referring to fluency in terms of vocabulary and possibly
LSD> grammar, then that is not too hard to believe. It is quite common,
LSD> for example, for such people to use foreign terms to talk about things
LSD> around. For the sound system, it is not easy to drop the native
LSD> accent and acquire a foreign accent. This is especially true for
LSD> people who've been using a language until mid-teens.
Yes, this is rather unusal for her age when this happened.
LSD> Does she speak English with any accents?
Undistinguishable from the majority of native (UK) English speakers
that I know. Over the phone, no one suspects that she is Chinese.
An English friend of mine (not a linguist) notes that she has a slight
"East Ender twang". Not sure how accurate that description is.
Gigi
I will keep you posted...
Gigi
located the Sidney Lau books in two sources (eastwindsf.com &
chinabooks.com.au) so far and have emailed them to ask for further
information. Unfortunately, the price is rather expensive (e.g.,
$79.50 at eastwind) so I'll keep looking!
Gigi
Thomas Chan
Another place which you may want to try (which is where I got my
copy of Sidney Lau's dictionary some 2-3 years ago for something
in the $60s) is:
Oriental Culture Enterprises Co., Inc.
13-17 Elizabeth Street, 2/Fl.
New York, N.Y. 10013
Tel: (212) 226-8461
Fax: (212) 431-6695
They're in Manhattan Chinatown. As far as I know, they don't
have a website. Their hours are 10a-7p. The back of the
dust jacket says "$274", which presumably is Hong Kong dollars,
but I don't know how current that information is.
Here's a scan of the title page and two random pages:
http://deall.ohio-state.edu/grads/chan.200/misc/lau_1977_title.jpg
http://deall.ohio-state.edu/grads/chan.200/misc/lau_1977_398-399.jpg
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Gigi
Appropximately how many entries are there? If that's hard to
determine, how many pages does it have? Thanks again.
Gigi
Thomas Chan
It has 3,604 numbered headword entries (the number in bold
right after the character). The number of compounds under each
headword varies. Pagewise, there's 23 Roman-numbered pages of
introductory material (mostly Lau's romanization system) and
1,001 Arabic-numbered pages (of which the index begins on
p. 957).
Thomas Chan
tc...@cornell.edu
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> Just curious; what do you think "earthworm" should be? The
Tak> only other term I know is "huang2 quan3" (yellow + dog) and I
Tak> have not heard that one used for ages (and only from the
Tak> older generations).
I've never heard this term, and I would take it for "yellow dog", most
probably a dog with brown (a shade of yellow?) fur.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> I can't get what you mean by this. Do you mean that whenever
LSD> you have a separate *session* of conversation with her, her
LSD> accent diminishes within that session. And when you start
LSD> another session, she starts from accented again, and then
LSD> that again gradually diminishes?
Tak> Something like that. For example, when she comes to the US
Tak> to visit for a week, in the first couple days her accent
Tak> would be a bit thicker than by the time she leaves at the end
Tak> of the week.
Well... that's not a strange phenomenon. I do that, too, with English
and Mandarin. E.g. when I visit to US, Canada or Australia, I would
absorb their accents gradually and after a few days, speak with a
little bit of their accents (losing my Bristish-based accent). If I
don't speak English for a few months, I'd even lose the Bristish-based
accent and gain a Cantonese accent! For Mandarin, I think I've got
some Southwestern accent (esp. nasalizing some "-n" syllables) after a
trip to Yunnan, Chengdu and Tibet. I now still speak Mandarin with
some vowels nasalized (and then dropping that final "-n"). I tend to
do more <er>-ization after a few days of staying in Peking.
What's strange is that this never happens to my Cantonese, which is my
mother tongue. I don't acquire a GZ accent even after staying in
Guangzhou for a week. I can tell the GZ accent apart from the HK
accent, and I did try to conciously immitate it. But I still can't
get it fluently. Similar for the Fo1shan2 accent.
LSD> It's funny. Maybe, she needs longer time to "recalibrate"
LSD> the tone contours in her mental model. :)
Tak> Could be.
In this case, should we still consider Cantonese to be (one of) her
native language(s)?
Tak> Another way to describe this phenomenon is that even though
Tak> Cantonese is her mother tongue, her fluency somehow regresses
Tak> after she moves to a new environment.
Yeah.
LSD> If you're referring to fluency in terms of vocabulary and
LSD> possibly grammar, then that is not too hard to believe. It
LSD> is quite common, for example, for such people to use foreign
LSD> terms to talk about things around. For the sound system, it
LSD> is not easy to drop the native accent and acquire a foreign
LSD> accent. This is especially true for people who've been using
LSD> a language until mid-teens.
Tak> Yes, this is rather unusal for her age when this happened.
LSD> Does she speak English with any accents?
Tak> Undistinguishable from the majority of native (UK) English
Tak> speakers that I know. Over the phone, no one suspects that
Tak> she is Chinese.
So, I would say that English has replaced Cantonese as her "native"
language.
Tak> An English friend of mine (not a linguist) notes that she has
Tak> a slight "East Ender twang". Not sure how accurate that
Tak> description is.
Well... maybe just an accident. My mum's Mandarin teacher (decades
ago) insisted, based on her Mandarin accent, that she was from
Ning2bo1. He denied all other possibility: "You can take my head as
your chair if you aren't from Ning2bo2", according to my mum. But my
mum is from Kai1ping2, Guangdong. She's never moved to the Ning2bo1
area or nearby. She can only speak and understand a little bit
Shanghainese.
Trinker
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
[contagious accent]
> What's strange is that this never happens to my Cantonese, which is my
> mother tongue. I don't acquire a GZ accent even after staying in
> Guangzhou for a week. I can tell the GZ accent apart from the HK
> accent, and I did try to conciously immitate it. But I still can't
> get it fluently. Similar for the Fo1shan2 accent.
I have the same experience with my mother tongue (Japanese) and
all the other languages I speak, including English, which is my
primary daily language. My accent in Japanese never changes,
although I can *try* to fake some other region. In English,
and everything else, I'm prone to shift my accent to accomodate
those around me.
[...]
> LSD> Does she speak English with any accents?
>
> Tak> Undistinguishable from the majority of native (UK) English
> Tak> speakers that I know. Over the phone, no one suspects that
> Tak> she is Chinese.
>
> So, I would say that English has replaced Cantonese as her "native"
> language.
I wonder...Tak, do you know if when she's very, very tired, or sick,
or otherwise not mentally "firing on all cylinders", if her English
gets strange? I know my Japanese never really disappears, but my
English can lose 'r' and 'l', and the mental gatekeeping that I do
to make sure that I'm speaking one language at a time seems to slip.
Tak To
> I wonder...Tak, do you know if when she's very, very tired, or sick,
> or otherwise not mentally "firing on all cylinders", if her English
> gets strange? I know my Japanese never really disappears, but my
> English can lose 'r' and 'l', and the mental gatekeeping that I do
> to make sure that I'm speaking one language at a time seems to slip.
Sorry, never had a chance to find out. Her daily life is all English,
her husband is English, etc.
My English probably regresses when I am tired, though no one has told
me that. However, I was told that my Cantonese sometimes deteriates
into mumbles (though not brought out by extended exposure to English).
My sister comments that a lot of times I speak as if I were talking to
myself.
I definitely topicalize a lot (in Chinese as well as English) when I
am tired, which no doubt leads to more confusion.
Tak
--
Trinker
Tak To wrote:
>
> Trinker wrote:
>
> > I wonder...Tak, do you know if when she's very, very tired, or sick,
> > or otherwise not mentally "firing on all cylinders", if her English
> > gets strange? I know my Japanese never really disappears, but my
> > English can lose 'r' and 'l', and the mental gatekeeping that I do
> > to make sure that I'm speaking one language at a time seems to slip.
>
> Sorry, never had a chance to find out. Her daily life is all English,
> her husband is English, etc.
Ah. Pity. It would have been nice to have a comparison. My daily
live is conducted in English as well, except for those moments where
I seek out Japanese language interaction, for fear of losing my
mother tongue.
[...]
> I definitely topicalize a lot (in Chinese as well as English) when I
> am tired, which no doubt leads to more confusion.
Hrm. I wonder how much Japanese affects my word choice and
presentation in English? The only referent I have is that
learning ASL was much easier for me, with several other
languages to compare to, than it was to my heretofore monolingual
classmates.
Charles Belov
>
(snip)
>
> I do that, too, with English
> and Mandarin. E.g. when I visit to US, Canada or Australia, I would
> absorb their accents gradually and after a few days, speak with a
> little bit of their accents (losing my Bristish-based accent). If I
> don't speak English for a few months, I'd even lose the Bristish-based
> accent and gain a Cantonese accent! For Mandarin, I think I've got
> some Southwestern accent (esp. nasalizing some "-n" syllables) after a
> trip to Yunnan, Chengdu and Tibet. I now still speak Mandarin with
> some vowels nasalized (and then dropping that final "-n"). I tend to
> do more <er>-ization after a few days of staying in Peking.
>
> What's strange is that this never happens to my Cantonese, which is my
> mother tongue. I don't acquire a GZ accent even after staying in
> Guangzhou for a week. I can tell the GZ accent apart from the HK
> accent, and I did try to conciously immitate it. But I still can't
> get it fluently. Similar for the Fo1shan2 accent.
>
I speak English natively, originally from eastern Pennsylvania, and
I tend to have accent drift when speaking with a someone who has a
strong accent, as with someone who has a deep South (U.S.) accent.
I expect it on a week-long trip, but I've had it take place as
quickly as 15 minutes during a conversation. When it happens, I
worry the other person will think I'm making fun of them.
My Cantonese accent was good when I was listening to the language
tapes, but my accent has gotten very bad. I can only tell HK accent
from non-HK accent. (In my Cantonese prime, if I tried to wish
someone a Happy New Year in Mandarin, it came out with a Cantonese accent.)
> (snip)
> Tak> An English friend of mine (not a linguist) notes that she has
> Tak> a slight "East Ender twang". Not sure how accurate that
> Tak> description is.
>
> Well... maybe just an accident. My mum's Mandarin teacher (decades
> ago) insisted, based on her Mandarin accent, that she was from
> Ning2bo1. He denied all other possibility: "You can take my head as
> your chair if you aren't from Ning2bo2", according to my mum. But my
> mum is from Kai1ping2, Guangdong. She's never moved to the Ning2bo1
> area or nearby. She can only speak and understand a little bit
> Shanghainese.
I have had a couple Filipino friends, no relation to each other but
both from Manila, whose accents sound like midwest U.S. despite them
both having lived only in Manila and San Francisco. I've never
heard this accent from any other Filipino.
I also know a woman from H.K. who has lived here in S.F. since being
a small child. She sounds like she's from New York. In her case,
she once had a partner from N.Y., but doesn't know whether that's
where she got the accent from.
Charles Belov
Lee Sau Dan
Trinker> I have the same experience with my mother tongue
Trinker> (Japanese) and all the other languages I speak, including
Trinker> English, which is my primary daily language. My accent
Trinker> in Japanese never changes, although I can *try* to fake
Trinker> some other region. In English, and everything else, I'm
Trinker> prone to shift my accent to accomodate those around me.
Maybe, this is the real difference between one's mother tongue and
other L2 that one's also fluent with.
Trinker> I wonder...Tak, do you know if when she's very, very
Trinker> tired, or sick, or otherwise not mentally "firing on all
Trinker> cylinders", if her English gets strange?
Good question! Do you also have the experience that when you're very
tired, you'd be reluctant to listen to anything in any foreign
(i.e. not mother tongue) languages, and don't even want to speak a
word in those languages?
Again, a big difference between mother tongue and other languages.
And most of my dreams are in Cantonese, although I did have some
(strange) dreams in which I spoken French and Japanese, with which I
can only speak a few sentences. Although I'm quite fluent in English,
I seldom dream in it. And although I now hear German everyday
(because I'm working in Germany), most dreams are still happening in
Cantonese, among people back home in Hong Kong.
Trinker> I know my Japanese never really disappears, but my
Trinker> English can lose 'r' and 'l', and the mental gatekeeping
Trinker> that I do to make sure that I'm speaking one language at
Trinker> a time seems to slip.
My English also gets more Cantonese (confusing 'r' and 'l' as well as
'n') accent when I'm tired.
I always explain these to myself by hypothesizing that the linguistic
part of my brain works in different modes when I use different
languages, and the mode for my mother is very different from the other
modes. Now I'm reading and writing in a newsgroup, and my mind is in
the English mode, naturally. As such, I even think "in English"!
Trinker
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Trinker" == Trinker <trinke...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> Trinker> I have the same experience with my mother tongue
> Trinker> (Japanese) and all the other languages I speak, including
> Trinker> English, which is my primary daily language. My accent
> Trinker> in Japanese never changes, although I can *try* to fake
> Trinker> some other region. In English, and everything else, I'm
> Trinker> prone to shift my accent to accomodate those around me.
>
> Maybe, this is the real difference between one's mother tongue and
> other L2 that one's also fluent with.
I dunno. I don't know many other people who have the sort of
confusion between mothertongue and primary language that I do.
(I spoke only Japanese until school age, and then the majority
of my education has been in English, and it's the primary language
of my day-to-day, as I live in the U.S. and have a monolingual
English speaking SO. But until I left home, Japanese was my
only home language.)
I've encountered a lot of monoglots who have "chameleon
tendencies" in their accents, though.
> Trinker> I wonder...Tak, do you know if when she's very, very
> Trinker> tired, or sick, or otherwise not mentally "firing on all
> Trinker> cylinders", if her English gets strange?
>
> Good question! Do you also have the experience that when you're very
> tired, you'd be reluctant to listen to anything in any foreign
> (i.e. not mother tongue) languages, and don't even want to speak a
> word in those languages?
Once I get to a certain level of exhaustion, it gets harder to
produce them. As far as listening, the problem is that my
vocabulary in my mother tongue is not as good as in English,
so things get weird.
> Again, a big difference between mother tongue and other languages.
>
> And most of my dreams are in Cantonese, although I did have some
> (strange) dreams in which I spoken French and Japanese, with which I
> can only speak a few sentences. Although I'm quite fluent in English,
> I seldom dream in it. And although I now hear German everyday
> (because I'm working in Germany), most dreams are still happening in
> Cantonese, among people back home in Hong Kong.
I dream in the language that's appropriate to the people or
setting of my dream. In fact, it's a major sign of approaching
fluency when I start dreaming in a new language.
My internal dialogue (speaking to myself) is in a sort of
mishmosh, except when I'm trying to compose writing in a specific
language, in which case I'll think in that language.
> Trinker> I know my Japanese never really disappears, but my
> Trinker> English can lose 'r' and 'l', and the mental gatekeeping
> Trinker> that I do to make sure that I'm speaking one language at
> Trinker> a time seems to slip.
>
> My English also gets more Cantonese (confusing 'r' and 'l' as well as
> 'n') accent when I'm tired.
I was stunned when I first noticed this happening, because I don't
have a foreigner accent in English or Japanese.
> I always explain these to myself by hypothesizing that the linguistic
> part of my brain works in different modes when I use different
> languages, and the mode for my mother is very different from the other
> modes. Now I'm reading and writing in a newsgroup, and my mind is in
> the English mode, naturally. As such, I even think "in English"!
I suspect that my language processing is similar. What's
bizarre is when I'll think in a language where I don't have
a lot of vocabulary...
Lee Sau Dan
>> Maybe, this is the real difference between one's mother tongue
>> and other L2 that one's also fluent with.
Trinker> I dunno. I don't know many other people who have the
Trinker> sort of confusion between mothertongue and primary
Trinker> language that I do. (I spoke only Japanese until school
Trinker> age, and then the majority of my education has been in
Trinker> English,
Me too! Except that I started using English as the medium of learning
from secondary school (U.S. grade 7).
Mandarin is treated as a third language, which is not seriously taught
at schools, and not often heard in Hong Kong.
Trinker> and it's the primary language of my day-to-day,
Not true for me. I kept on using Cantonese day to day for everything
other than study and work, until I come to Germany last September. I
still use English for work, but I have to use Germany for day-to-day
matters.
Trinker> as I live in the U.S. and have a monolingual English
Trinker> speaking SO. But until I left home, Japanese was my only
Trinker> home language.)
HK is a bit different. We have better exposure to English. At least,
we have English TV and radio channels, and all official documents are
in English. Most public signs are bilingual.
Trinker> Once I get to a certain level of exhaustion, it gets
Trinker> harder to produce them. As far as listening, the problem
Trinker> is that my vocabulary in my mother tongue is not as good
Trinker> as in English, so things get weird.
What? You now have a stronger vocabulary in English?
For me, I have a stronger vocabulary in English when it comes to
academic topics (e.g. knowing how to say "computational complexity of
algorithms" in English but not Cantonese) as well as
documentation/legal matters (e.g. how to say "ignorance" and "tort" in
Chinese?). But for all other matters, my English vocabulary is very
limited. I didn't know how to say "closet" until university, when an
overseas student in the same dorm as I told me what a "closet" was!
(And he was also surprised that HK students can burst out English
technical terms like "conservation of angular momentum" fluently
without knowing words as 'simple' as "closet", "stove", ...)
Trinker> I dream in the language that's appropriate to the people
Trinker> or setting of my dream.
So do I. I've never had dreams where my current colleagues would talk
with me in Cantonese. Neither have I heard non-Mandarin speaking
friends in Hong Kong speak Mandarin in my dreams. When I spoke French
in a dream, I was doing that with a couple of friends (in Hong Kong)
whom I know have learnt some French.
The strange thing is that even though I've been in Germany for half a
year, my dreams are still in Hong Kong, involving my acquaintances in
Hong Kong.
Trinker> In fact, it's a major sign of approaching fluency when I
Trinker> start dreaming in a new language.
Many people say that. But I don't think so. I've had dreams in
French (in which I just spoke a few sentences and understood a few) a
few years ago. But my ability of speaking French is basically NULL.
I can only bearly understand (thanks to gestures) the instructions
given by the passers-by when I ask the way in France.
Trinker> My internal dialogue (speaking to myself) is in a sort of
Trinker> mishmosh, except when I'm trying to compose writing in a
Trinker> specific language, in which case I'll think in that
Trinker> language.
Me too.
Trinker> I suspect that my language processing is similar. What's
Trinker> bizarre is when I'll think in a language where I don't
Trinker> have a lot of vocabulary...
Yeah. Instead of "naturally" popping out words from my mother tongue
or English, I would be stuck there. Somethings, I have to pause for a
few seconds before I can find the Cantonese or English word for that
meaning.
What's interesting is that now that I've got some basic knowledge of
German. When I try to write Esperanto (in newsgroups), I always form
German sentences in my mind. The appropriate German expressions, not
Esperanto ones, come to my mind when I want to type them into the
computer. I have to stop my hands conciously and pause a few seconds
before I can find the Esperanto expression, many of which I used to be
using a lot 1 or 2 years ago when posting Esperanto messages in
newsgroups. And I tend to use German word order, too! I don't have
these problem with Cantonese or English or Mandarin. Maybe, my mind
is just treating both German and Esperanto as "foreign languages which
I don't know much" and hence the confusion.
赵里昱Chiew Lee Yih
>Hello. I would like to find Cantonese romanization charts for the
>following systems: Yale, LSHK, Pinyin. Ideally, these charts would
>break down the sounds by initials, finals, vowels and tones and would
>include sample words from Cantonese and English (English for
>pronunciation purposes).
>
>If these charts do not exist, could someone please tell me what the
>vowels are in the Yale system, along with their English pronuncation
>equivalents?
>
>Thanks very much.
LSHK scheme:
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/syllabary/
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/59finals.html
Gigi
Thanks! The first link was particularly helpful as they included .wav files.
Christian Richard
http://www.geocities.com/marraskuu1978/cantonese/romanization.html
--
Christian Richard
www.thetranslator.ca
PS: There is no turnip in my e-mail.
Lee Sau Dan
Christian> My Romanization conversion chart may also be of use:
Christian> http://www.geocities.com/marraskuu1978/cantonese/romanization.html
The ordering of your table of initials seems quite arbitrary. Why
don't you order it by the traditiona, conventional order: b, p, m, f,
d, t, n, l, g, k, ng, h, dz, ch, s, y, w, gw, kw?
Christian Richard
> d, t, n, l, g, k, ng, h, dz, ch, s, y, w, gw, kw?
Thanks! Done.
--
Christian Richard
www.geocities.com/marraskuu1978/cantonese/