Idioms.
Dylan Sung
stone.
Is this too much of a coincidence? That is, could the English be the source
of the Chinese translation or vice versa?
Dyl.
Wayne Brown
Evidence of the English idiom has been found in documents of the
16th century. It seems doubtful that Chinese had much of an
influence on English at that time. What ever happened to the
Chinese idiom that comes from a story recorded during the Tang
Dynasty? 一箭双雕
Regards, ----- WB.
Tak To
Morohashi cites 一箭雙雕 from 《北史》. It has an entry for
一石二鳥 (note "二" and not "兩") but no citation. It also has
一舉兩得 with citation from 《晉書》.
The use of "二" instead of "兩" marks the phrase to be later
than the two.
Btw, once I came across a primary school text book for kids in
China which stated that "二" must be used in 三心二意, and that
三心兩意 was simply incorrect and unacceptable. I have always
thought that 三心兩意 was the earlier form so I was schocked
to read about this draconian "ruling". I decided to look the
phrases up. It turned out that the 三心二意 was from 關漢卿
《救風塵》第一折：「爭奈是匪妓，都三心二意。」and 三心兩意 was from
王充《論衡‧話時》：「非有三心兩意，前後相反也。」 The "Standard"
form predated by the (Cantonese) colloquial form by over a
millenium!
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
John Atkinson
"Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote ...
Interesting. I wish I knew what these references were, but of course my
Chinese is much too inadequate. Any chance of an English elucidation?
And, what are there three of in that quote?
John.
Tak To
>
> "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote ...
>
>> Wayne Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Dylan Sung wrote:
>>>
>>>> 一石兩鳥 yi shi liang niao (lit. one stone, two birds) Kill two
>>>> birds with one stone.
>>>>
>>>> Is this too much of a coincidence? That is, could the English
>>>> be the source of the Chinese translation or vice versa?
>>>
>>>
>>> Evidence of the English idiom has been found in documents of the
>>> 16th century. It seems doubtful that Chinese had much of an
>>> influence on English at that time. What ever happened to the
>>> Chinese idiom that comes from a story recorded during the Tang
>>> Dynasty? 一箭双雕
- 一箭双雕 (<yi1 jian4 shuang1 diao1>) : one - arrow - pair - eagles
>> Morohashi cites 一箭雙雕 from 《北史》. It has an entry for
>> 一石二鳥 (note "二" and not "兩") but no citation. It also has
>> 一舉兩得 with citation from 《晉書》.
- 《北史》(<Bei3 Shi3>) : History of the Northern Dynasties (386 -
589 AD)
- 《晉書》(<Jin4 Shu4>) : (History) Book of the <Jin4> Dynasties
(265 - 420 AD)
- 一舉兩得 (<yi1 ju3 liang3 de2>) : one - act - two - rewards
>> The use of "二" instead of "兩" marks the phrase to be later
>> than the two.
- 二 (<er4>) : the numeral two, can be used as cardinal or ordinal
- 兩 (<liang3>) : two, strictly cardinal
>> Btw, once I came across a primary school text book for kids in
>> China which stated that "二" must be used in 三心二意, and that
>> 三心兩意 was simply incorrect and unacceptable. I have always
>> thought that 三心兩意 was the earlier form so I was schocked
>> to read about this draconian "ruling". I decided to look the
>> phrases up. It turned out that the 三心二意 was from 關漢卿
>> 《救風塵》第一折：「爭奈是匪妓，都三心二意。」and 三心兩意 was from
>> 王充《論衡‧話時》：「非有三心兩意，前後相反也。」 The "Standard"
>> form predated by the (Cantonese) colloquial form by over a
>> millenium!
- 三心二意 (<san1 xin1 er4 yi4>) and
- 三心兩意 (<san1 xin1 liang3 yi4>) : three - hearts - two -
ideas; meaning frequent change of heart or mind; unfaithful;
the opposite of steadfast.
- 關漢卿 (<Guan1 Han4qing1>) : 13th century playwright
-《救風塵》 (<Jiu4 Feng4chen2>) : save - wind - dust; title of
one of Guan's plays. "Wind and Dust" here probably refers
to "women exposed to wind and dust", i.e., "women without
a proper home", i.e., postitutes.
- 第一折 (<di4yi1 zhe2>) : = first act
- 爭奈是匪妓，都三心二意 ~ "regretfully they are thief-harlots, all
unfaithful"
- 王充 (<Wang2 Chong1>) : philosopher, 27 - 97 AD
-《論衡》(<Lun4 Heng2>) : "Discussive Weighing", book by Wang
-《讕(*)時》(<lan2 shi4>) : words of divination - times; chapter in
<Lun4 Heng2>
(*) note: I mistyped the first character in the previous message
- 非有三心兩意，前後相反也 "[heaven/god] should not keep changing his
mind and contradict himself"
> Interesting. I wish I knew what these references were, but of course my
> Chinese is much too inadequate. Any chance of an English elucidation?
> And, what are there three of in that quote?
Hope this helps.
Wayne Brown
> - 一箭双雕 (<yi1 jian4 shuang1 diao1>) : one - arrow - pair -
> eagles
The translation of some Chinese animal names is an art in
itself. Take the word 雕 (diāo) in the idiom. Some dictionaries
say it's a "golden eagle" in English; others says it's a
"hawk"; and still others translate it as "vulture." If one looks
up "eagle" and "hawk," a dictionary usually gives 鹰 (yīng), but
looking up 鹰 turns up a third possibility, "falcon." These are
all birds of a different feather in English. So what did the
good general in the ancient Chinese story actually shoot down
out of the sky with just one arrow? A pair of eagles, a pair of
hawks or a pair of vultures?
Regards, ----- WB.
Tak To
雕, 鹰 and other terms like 鷲, 鷂 are general names that have
been used in different times by people in different places for
different birds. They are probably all larger birds of prey
of the Accipitridae family -- i.e., one type of eagle or another.
The actual names are used qualified: 花雕, 蛇雕, 鷹雕, 潔白雕,
虎頭海雕, etc.
The situation is not that different from English, in which terms
like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not precise
taxonomy-wise either,
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Tak To wrote:
> Wayne Brown wrote:
>
> > Tak To wrote:
> >
> >> - 一箭双雕 (<yi1 jian4 shuang1 diao1>) : one - arrow - pair -
> >> eagles
> >
> > The translation of some Chinese animal names is an art in
> > itself. Take the word 雕 (diāo) in the idiom. Some dictionaries
> > say it's a "golden eagle" in English; others says it's a
> > "hawk"; and still others translate it as "vulture." If one looks
> > up "eagle" and "hawk," a dictionary usually gives 鹰 (yīng), but
> > looking up 鹰 turns up a third possibility, "falcon." These are
> > all birds of a different feather in English. So what did the
> > good general in the ancient Chinese story actually shoot down
> > out of the sky with just one arrow? A pair of eagles, a pair of
> > hawks or a pair of vultures?
>
> 雕, 鹰 and other terms like 鷲, 鷂 are general names that have
> been used in different times by people in different places for
> different birds. They are probably all larger birds of prey
> of the Accipitridae family -- i.e., one type of eagle or another.
> The actual names are used qualified: 花雕, 蛇雕, 鷹雕, 潔白雕,
> 虎頭海雕, etc.
>
> The situation is not that different from English, in which terms
> like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not precise
> taxonomy-wise either,
A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
Peter T. Daniels
The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
thought of vultures as noble.
Lee Sau Dan
>> The situation is not that different from English, in which
>> terms like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not
>> precise taxonomy-wise either,
ranjit> A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that
ranjit> Chinese doesn't have different words for carrion eaters
ranjit> and birds of prey.
Why should it be unlikely?
Did you know that the Chinese word <yang2> can be either "goat" or
"sheep"? Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
"blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
BTW, English is so imprecise in kinship terms, when we apply Chinese
standards. What is an "uncle"? In Chinese, we distinguish among
<bo2>, <su1>, <gu1zhang4>, <jiu4> and <yi2zhang4>. What is "cousin"?
We distinguish between <biao3xiong1>, <biao3jie3>, <biao3mei4> and
<biao3di4>. Why is English so imprecise?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> >>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> The situation is not that different from English, in which
> >> terms like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not
> >> precise taxonomy-wise either,
>
> ranjit> A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that
> ranjit> Chinese doesn't have different words for carrion eaters
> ranjit> and birds of prey.
>
> Why should it be unlikely?
It just seemed unlikely because the birds have different functions.
> Did you know that the Chinese word <yang2> can be either "goat" or
> "sheep"?
That's not surprising.
> Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
> "blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
It's curious that they use the same word for the color of leaves and
the color of the sky. It would be less surprising if a single word
covered multiple colors that are not common in nature.
> BTW, English is so imprecise in kinship terms, when we apply Chinese
> standards. What is an "uncle"? In Chinese, we distinguish among
> <bo2>, <su1>, <gu1zhang4>, <jiu4> and <yi2zhang4>. What is "cousin"?
> We distinguish between <biao3xiong1>, <biao3jie3>, <biao3mei4> and
> <biao3di4>. Why is English so imprecise?
Indian English speakers are able to be precise when speaking English;
someone once introduced himself to me with "I'm your mother's brother's
wife's sister's husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
Lee Sau Dan
ranjit> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when
ranjit> speaking English; someone once introduced himself to me
ranjit> with "I'm your mother's brother's wife's sister's
ranjit> husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
ranjit> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
In Chinese, it involves only 3 kinship terms, too. :)
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
> >>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> ranjit> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when
> ranjit> speaking English; someone once introduced himself to me
> ranjit> with "I'm your mother's brother's wife's sister's
> ranjit> husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
> ranjit> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
>
> In Chinese, it involves only 3 kinship terms, too. :)
... but it wouldn't involve just kinship terms, would it? Wouldn't it
also include names?
In Malayalam, it would be more common to say:
Ann-aunt's Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw.
(aunt and broinlaw are approximations since English doesn't have
precise terms).
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
>
> The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> thought of vultures as noble.
Interesting! Did they not consider the rest of the genus Haliaetus
noble? If the Eagle hadn't been the mascot of the Roman empire, would
it be considered noble? The Latin word for eagle must mean swarthy bird
since aquilus means dark-colored; in medieval Europe, could something
dark have also been noble?
As an aside, I once misunderstood a (US) English reading instructor's
use of aquiline (he trained college freshmen who had graduated from
high school with reading deficiencies); I was surprised to find that he
thought it could only describe a narrow and upturned or straight nose.
Would Anglos of today not describe any not-so-narrow nose or hooked
nose as aquiline? From a couple of centuries back, in a description of
American Indians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooknose
The eyes are black and deep set, the brow low, the cheekbones high, the
nose large and aquiline, the mouth large, and the lips tumid [swollen]
and compressed."
Snidely
ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
> >
> > The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> > translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> > because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> > thought of vultures as noble.
>
> Interesting! Did they not consider the rest of the genus Haliaetus
> noble? If the Eagle hadn't been the mascot of the Roman empire, would
> it be considered noble? The Latin word for eagle must mean swarthy bird
> since aquilus means dark-colored; in medieval Europe, could something
> dark have also been noble?
Some commentators about the US National Emblem note that the Bald Eagle
is a member of the vulture family (and tends to steal food from real
hunters like the kestrel), but that the Gold Eagle is a true eagle that
does its own hunting.
Was the Roman Eagle a true Eagle? Or another example of an "upgrade"
vulture?
That's "Haliaeetus leucocephalus" for the Bald Eagle or White-headed
Eagle, and the hite feathers are supposedly show that the birds had
*really* bald ancestors (saves cleaning the carrion off the head once
you've poked around in the corpse's innards) and "Aquila chrysaetos"
for the Golden Eagle.
"Although it was midday, a tiny white star seemed to be flashing in the
cloudless, sapphire sky. After focusing their binoculars, the onlookers
realized the star was a bald eagle (Haliaeetus leucocephalus), and a
symphony of "oooos" and "aaaahs" began. Then, within a few minutes, a
raven appeared. A protracted fight ensued during which time the
relatively small raven demonstrated agility, tenacity, and bravery
[...]. The bald eagle demonstrated the better part of valor and fled."
<http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/53060?&print=yes>
/dps
noesy_parker
news:87y7rxb...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de:
> Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
> "blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
>
Is this the same word as "qing1"? I still don't quite know what colour
"qing1" is, although it appears to be more commonly used to mean green, it
can be anything from green to blue to black.
Mike Wright
> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>
>>>>>>>"ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> >> The situation is not that different from English, in which
>> >> terms like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not
>> >> precise taxonomy-wise either,
>>
>> ranjit> A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that
>> ranjit> Chinese doesn't have different words for carrion eaters
>> ranjit> and birds of prey.
>>
>>Why should it be unlikely?
>
> It just seemed unlikely because the birds have different functions.
>
>>Did you know that the Chinese word <yang2> can be either "goat" or
>>"sheep"?
>
> That's not surprising.
>
>> Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
>>"blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
Chinese <qing1> (same character) is used the same way. My wife tended to
translate it into English rather randomly. When she said something like
"He was driving a blue car", it might well turn out that the car was
actually green. But when I pinned her down, she could tell me which
color it really was.
> It's curious that they use the same word for the color of leaves and
> the color of the sky.
In fact, other related color words exist in Japanese (and in Chinese),
but they are not as commonly used in casual speech. However, they can be
used when it's necessary to make a distinction. For example, Japanese
has <ai> for deep blue and <midori> for green. Note that neither of
these is an i-ending adjective (the apparent "-i" in <ai> can't be
inflected).
> It would be less surprising if a single word
> covered multiple colors that are not common in nature.
I'm sure that there was a big thread on color terms on sci.lang several
years ago. Different languages have different numbers of "fundamental"
color terms, but there is a pretty consistent pattern regarding which
ones occur "ahead of" others. I'm sure someone here can quote all the facts.
I used to wonder if these differences were connected with actual
variations in color perception among various groups of early speakers,
but I no longer think that's likely, as the neurological basis of color
perception doesn't seem to permit that degree of differentiation.
As an interesting sidelight, though: In _The Quest for Consciousness: A
Neurobiological Approach_ (pp. 52-53), Christopher Koch mentions that in
addtion to "color-blind" men who have only two classes of
photoreceptors, there are some women who have four (references omitted
in the following): "The retinae of some women express two forms of the L
photopigment that differ by 4 to 7 nm in the long-wavelength portion of
the spectrum. Sensitive psychological tests can evaluate the color
perception of these 'extraordinary' women. If the visual cortex learned
to process advantageously the additional wavelength information, these
_tetrachromat_ women would experience subtle hue variations forever
unavailable to the rest of humanity. In particular, they should be able
to distinguish two colors that look identical to trichromats."
>>BTW, English is so imprecise in kinship terms, when we apply Chinese
>>standards. What is an "uncle"? In Chinese, we distinguish among
>><bo2>, <su1>, <gu1zhang4>, <jiu4> and <yi2zhang4>. What is "cousin"?
>>We distinguish between <biao3xiong1>, <biao3jie3>, <biao3mei4> and
>><biao3di4>. Why is English so imprecise?
>
> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when speaking English;
> someone once introduced himself to me with "I'm your mother's brother's
> wife's sister's husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
To (over-)generalize, people will tend to come up with words to
differentiate concepts that are important to them, and cultural concepts
are just as important as any other kinds. Cultures that place special
significance on extended family relationships will tend to have a
greater variety of distinct terms for the relationships that are
important to them.
But, for example, Chinese culture traditionally placed less importance
on the female line, so there are terms to differentiate betweeen
"younger brother's xxx" and "older brother's xxx", but only single terms
for "sister's xxx"--in spite of the fact that there are distinct terms
for "younger sister" and "older sister".
It's interesting that all of the Chinese languages seem to make the same
distinctions in this area, but don't seem to use exactly the same terms.
Anyone want to make some comparisons among Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka,
and Hokkien? (And don't we have any Shanghai speakers here?)
There are also variations in the extent or precision of other classes of
words from language to language, such as number words and time words.
Having distinct terms for the members of certain classes of "things"
implies--to me--that people originally experienced the distinctions as
more important than class membership. It's always possible to append
modifiers to a class name to make less important distinctions.
The more I think about it, though, the more I suspect that class
membership in these cases may have been seen only through later
analysis--and often through the influences of other languages. That is,
that there was a time when, for example, Chinese speakers felt that
one's older siblings were "really" distinct from one's younger siblings,
while people in some other cultures didn't see things that way.
None of this is meant to imply that such language choices are made by
speakers consciously deciding things like "we need distinctive terms for
'elder brother's wife' and 'younger brother's wife', but a single term
will do for any sister's husband."
--
Mike Wright
http://www.raccoonbend.com
Yusuf B Gursey
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > The situation is not that different from English, in which terms
> > > like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not precise
> > > taxonomy-wise either,
> >
> > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
>
> The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> thought of vultures as noble.
and the word is?
Peter T. Daniels
Oh, I'd have to go dig up my translation of Keel & Schroer's *Creation*
(which was finished more than two years ago and still hasn't been
published) and track down the passage and find the email exchange with
Prof. Keel to get all the details (the German was unambiguous but
contrary to any familiar version). I don't actually have a Biblical
Hebrew dictionary with an English-->Hebrew index.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > > > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
English has the same word ("duck") for largely vegetarian and totally
carnivorous birds. True, many of them eat under water, but the
difference is important to their culinary qualities.
> > > The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> > > translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> > > because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> > > thought of vultures as noble.
> >
> > Interesting! Did they not consider the rest of the genus Haliaetus
> > noble?
Thanks to Snidely for correcting the genus below.
> > If the Eagle hadn't been the mascot of the Roman empire, would
> > it be considered noble? The Latin word for eagle must mean swarthy bird
> > since aquilus means dark-colored; in medieval Europe, could something
> > dark have also been noble?
Apparently. It might be relevant that the bird's English name mentions
the lightest color on the adult's plumage (the goldish brown on the
back of the head and neck). The rest of the plumage is dark brown.
> Some commentators about the US National Emblem note that the Bald Eagle
> is a member of the vulture family
True in some sense but misleading, as the Bald Eagle, Golden Eagle, and
Old World vultures belong to the same family (Accipitridae).
> (and tends to steal food from real hunters like the kestrel),
I think you mean or your source means "osprey".
> but that the Gold Eagle is a true eagle that does its own hunting.
According to /Hawks in Flight: The Flight Identification of North
American Migrant Raptors/ by Dunne, Sibley, and Sutton, both the Golden
and Bald Eagles hunt and both eat carrion. The Golden is more of a
hunter and doesn't pirate other birds' prey (or not often enough to
mention).
> Was the Roman Eagle a true Eagle? Or another example of an "upgrade"
> vulture?
It was the Golden Eagle.
> That's "Haliaeetus leucocephalus" for the Bald Eagle or White-headed
> Eagle, and the hite feathers are supposedly show that the birds had
> *really* bald ancestors (saves cleaning the carrion off the head once
> you've poked around in the corpse's innards)
Nonsense. I hope there are better commentators. All the members of
the genus /Haliaaetus/ (fish and sea eagles) have large areas of white
in adult plumage, including the tail in most species.
> and "Aquila chrysaetos" for the Golden Eagle.
...
Apparently it looked golden to Linnaeus too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Yusuf B Gursey
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > > The situation is not that different from English, in which terms
> > > > > like "eagle", "vulture", "hawk" and "falcon" are not precise
> > > > > taxonomy-wise either,
> > > >
> > > > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > > > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
> > >
> > > The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> > > translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> > > because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> > > thought of vultures as noble.
> >
> > and the word is?
ne*sh*er from what I looked up. DBD and bible encyclopedias say it
covers both vultures and eagles.
the arabic cognate nasr has the same ambiguity. it covers vultures and
large eagles and is used for heraldry. nasr was also a pre-islamic arab
deity, mentioned so inthe Qur'an.
zoologists, however, prefer nasr to designate "vulture" (eagle is
3uqa:b) but in the colloquial the meaning is ambigous, covering eagles
as well.
Snidely
jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> True in some sense but misleading, as the Bald Eagle, Golden Eagle, and
> Old World vultures belong to the same family (Accipitridae).
Well, it might not be a close knit family at this level. The AmSci
article includes this:
"You can't be a member of that elite group (genus Aquila) with
partially feathered legs and dubious feeding habits. The bare-ankled
bald eagles are a type of sea eagle that diverged from the African
vulture lineage only a few million years ago. Although they may at
times hunt, they retain the vulture's ability to survive an entire
lifetime on rancid, decaying flesh. They are obligated by neither
physiology nor instinct to take live prey. By contrast, the golden
eagle and osprey are both obligate hunters."
> > (and tends to steal food from real hunters like the kestrel),
>
> I think you mean or your source means "osprey".
The AmSci source says "osprey", but I got diverted by falconry, I
guess. The "exchanges" are made in flight, though, so perhaps the
occasional kestrel gets robbed, too.
> > Was the Roman Eagle a true Eagle? Or another example of an "upgrade"
> > vulture?
>
> It was the Golden Eagle.
Aha!
>
> > That's "Haliaeetus leucocephalus" for the Bald Eagle or White-headed
> > Eagle, and the hite feathers are supposedly show that the birds had
> > *really* bald ancestors (saves cleaning the carrion off the head once
> > you've poked around in the corpse's innards)
>
> Nonsense. I hope there are better commentators. All the members of
> the genus /Haliaaetus/ (fish and sea eagles) have large areas of white
> in adult plumage, including the tail in most species.
Hmmm. I'll keep this in mind as I continue searching...I've got a lot
to learn about sea eagles. Then there's all those Gulls And Buoys
jokes to be worked into the thread, as we take a tern for the worst.
BTW, it seems there is a difference in how Baldies and Turkey Vultures
(the guys who are still bareheaded) extend their wings, which helps to
figure out which you've spotted way up there. Finger spread. But both
are soaring birds, while Goldens are quartering birds.
/dps
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > True in some sense but misleading, as the Bald Eagle, Golden Eagle, and
> > Old World vultures belong to the same family (Accipitridae).
>
> Well, it might not be a close knit family at this level. The AmSci
> article includes this:
> "You can't be a member of that elite group (genus Aquila) with
> partially feathered legs and dubious feeding habits. The bare-ankled
> bald eagles are a type of sea eagle that diverged from the African
> vulture lineage only a few million years ago.
I don't think these taxonomic questions are quite settled yet (though I
may be behind the times). Anyway, I hadn't heard this claim before and
it could certainly be true, so thanks.
> Although they may at
> times hunt, they retain the vulture's ability to survive an entire
> lifetime on rancid, decaying flesh. They are obligated by neither
> physiology nor instinct to take live prey. By contrast, the golden
> eagle and osprey are both obligate hunters."
Hm. I suppose that could be true, though I'd like to see a better
source. In real life, both hunt and both take carrion (Bald Eagles can
catch even the fastest-flying ducks without the advantage of surprise,
and Golden Eagles get killed by poisoned carcasses put out as bait for
predators).
...
> > > That's "Haliaeetus leucocephalus" for the Bald Eagle or White-headed
> > > Eagle, and the hite feathers are supposedly show that the birds had
> > > *really* bald ancestors (saves cleaning the carrion off the head once
> > > you've poked around in the corpse's innards)
> >
> > Nonsense. I hope there are better commentators. All the members of
> > the genus /Haliaaetus/ (fish and sea eagles) have large areas of white
> > in adult plumage, including the tail in most species.
>
> Hmmm. I'll keep this in mind as I continue searching...I've got a lot
> to learn about sea eagles. Then there's all those Gulls And Buoys
> jokes to be worked into the thread, as we take a tern for the worst.
I spit at puns (but I have to hawk first).
Obaue: I believe most Americans think of that verb as "hock".
Obscilang: but I have no data.
> BTW, it seems there is a difference in how Baldies and Turkey Vultures
> (the guys who are still bareheaded) extend their wings, which helps to
> figure out which you've spotted way up there. Finger spread. But both
> are soaring birds, while Goldens are quartering birds.
I depreciate /and/ deprecate pedantry, so it pains me to say that
Turkey Vultures are only distantly related to these other birds. The
consensus is that the New World vultures' closest relatives are the
storks. (There are bald, carrion-feeding storks.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Lee Sau Dan
ranjit> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when
ranjit> speaking English; someone once introduced himself to me
ranjit> with "I'm your mother's brother's wife's sister's
ranjit> husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
ranjit> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
>> In Chinese, it involves only 3 kinship terms, too. :)
ranjit> ... but it wouldn't involve just kinship terms, would it?
ranjit> Wouldn't it also include names?
No. Just kinship terms connected by the possessive postposition <de>.
The beginning "I'm your" is rendered with 2 pronouns, the copula
<shi4> and the possessive possessive <de>.
ranjit> In Malayalam, it would be more common to say: Ann-aunt's
ranjit> Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw.
No. Not something like that in Chinese. When we need to disambiguate
among the uncles and aunties refered to by identical kinship terms, we
insert numbers before them. The number is determined by their order
among their siblings.
Lee Sau Dan
noesy> Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in
noesy> news:87y7rxb...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de:
>> Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
>> "blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
noesy> Is this the same word as "qing1"?
Yes, it's the same character. But I can't say they're the same word,
as I'm not sure whether <aoi> in Japanese covers exactly the same
range of ideas.
noesy> I still don't quite know what colour "qing1" is, although
noesy> it appears to be more commonly used to mean green,
In <qing1tian1> it refers to the BLUE sky.
In <mian4qing1> it refers to a PALE shade of the skin.
In <qing1le yi1pian4>, it refers to a dark blue area of the skin
caused by an impact and the accumulation of "dead" blood under the
skin.
noesy> it can be anything from green to blue to black.
Right. It's an abstract colour, I'd say.
Lee Sau Dan
Mike> Chinese <qing1> (same character) is used the same way. My
Mike> wife tended to translate it into English rather
Mike> randomly. When she said something like "He was driving a
Mike> blue car", it might well turn out that the car was actually
Mike> green. But when I pinned her down, she could tell me which
Mike> color it really was.
Does she use the colour term <lü4>? Is it used in Hokkien?
Mike> Sensitive psychological tests can evaluate the color
Mike> perception of these 'extraordinary' women. If the visual
Mike> cortex learned to process advantageously the additional
Mike> wavelength information, these _tetrachromat_ women would
Mike> experience subtle hue variations forever unavailable to the
Mike> rest of humanity. In particular, they should be able to
Mike> distinguish two colors that look identical to trichromats."
Can they see infrared or ultraviolet?
Mike> But, for example, Chinese culture traditionally placed less
Mike> importance on the female line, so there are terms to
Mike> differentiate betweeen "younger brother's xxx" and "older
Mike> brother's xxx", but only single terms for "sister's xxx"--in
Mike> spite of the fact that there are distinct terms for "younger
Mike> sister" and "older sister".
Really? I can think of <jie3fu1> vs. <mei4fu1> for both
brothers-in-law.
Mike> It's interesting that all of the Chinese languages seem to
Mike> make the same distinctions in this area, but don't seem to
Mike> use exactly the same terms. Anyone want to make some
Mike> comparisons among Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokkien?
Mike> (And don't we have any Shanghai speakers here?)
You should perhaps add "Modern Standard Written Chinese" to the list.
e.g. Mandarin <nai3nai> is MSWC <zu3mu3> -- quite different.
Mike> Chinese speakers felt that one's older siblings were
Mike> "really" distinct from one's younger siblings, while people
Mike> in some other cultures didn't see things that way.
That applies not only siblings, but also cousins. For relatives in
the same generation, the relative age plays an important role in the
"ranking". One should only use kinship terms to address the elder
siblings and cousins, as well as relatives of earlier generations.
For the others, addressing by name is common.
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
> >>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> ranjit> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when
> ranjit> speaking English; someone once introduced himself to me
> ranjit> with "I'm your mother's brother's wife's sister's
> ranjit> husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
> ranjit> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
> >> In Chinese, it involves only 3 kinship terms, too. :)
>
> ranjit> ... but it wouldn't involve just kinship terms, would it?
> ranjit> Wouldn't it also include names?
>
> No. Just kinship terms connected by the possessive postposition <de>.
> The beginning "I'm your" is rendered with 2 pronouns, the copula
> <shi4> and the possessive possessive <de>.
The equivalent of "Ann-aunt's Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw" would be the
whole sentence in Malayalam. I take it that Chinese doesn't allow
elision of "I'm your".
> ranjit> In Malayalam, it would be more common to say: Ann-aunt's
> ranjit> Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw.
>
> No. Not something like that in Chinese. When we need to disambiguate
> among the uncles and aunties refered to by identical kinship terms, we
> insert numbers before them. The number is determined by their order
> among their siblings.
So, your mother's brother's wife's sister's husband's sister's husband
would have to learn how many elder siblings your mother's brother, his
wife, her sister, etc. have before he can tell you precisely how he's
related to you?
Peter T. Daniels
jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I spit at puns (but I have to hawk first).
>
> Obaue: I believe most Americans think of that verb as "hock".
> Obscilang: but I have no data.
My favorite cot/caught story! Some years ago, Michael Feldman's Whadya
Know Show on NPR was on the road in Seattle or Portland, and one of the
audience members he interviewed ran the /hak/ Winery. Knowing "hock"
only from "Liaisons" in *A Little Night Music*, "What once was a
[something something something] / Is now just an amiable hock," I
thought it a bit odd to name a winery for a downmarket product, and
Michael (based in Madison, a Milwaukee native) seemed taken aback too,
but eventually it transpired that it's the Hawk Winery.
I (never having lived west of the Mississippi) know of nothing
collocating with "a lougie" (<loogy>?) but "hock."
Tak To
In the Chinese culture, it is implite to address a person of
higher social order by his name. Thus, the sibling rank becomes
a convenient alternative name that can be used by a larger group
of people. When a kid sees an relative for the first time, his
parent would instruct him on how to address the latter -- "Come
here and say hello to Younger-brother-of-father Eight" or something
like that. Since younger-brother-of-father is just one word,
this address is no more cumbersome than say, "Uncle Octavio".
In fact, it is not unusual for a young kid to know his uncles'
and aunts' sibling rank but not their actual names. Note that
in the above case, if the father has just one younger brother,
the "Eight" can be dropped altogether.
It gets a bit trickier when one gets married. You used to tbe
just "Elder-Brother-of-Mother Three" to your sister's kids, and
now suddenly you are also "Husband of Younger-Sister-of-Father
Six" of your wife's nephews. Nonetheless, one's sibling ranking
is generally well known within the greater family.
Tak
Paul J Kriha
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159900985....@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > A vulture is a carrion eater. It seems unlikely that Chinese doesn't
> > > have different words for carrion eaters and birds of prey.
> >
> > The standard translations of the Bible (beginning at least with KJV)
> > translate the Hebrew word that designates 'vulture' with "eagle"
> > because of cultural connotations -- we think of eagles as noble, they
> > thought of vultures as noble.
>
> Interesting! Did they not consider the rest of the genus Haliaetus
> noble? If the Eagle hadn't been the mascot of the Roman empire, would
> it be considered noble? The Latin word for eagle must mean swarthy bird
> since aquilus means dark-colored; in medieval Europe, could something
> dark have also been noble?
In several places of medieval, and earlier, Europe,
the black double-headed she-eagle was the most noble
bird of all.
pjk
John Atkinson
> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>
>> Did you know that the Chinese word <yang2> can be either "goat"
>> or
>> "sheep"?
>
> That's not surprising.
They're so close biologically that it's almost impossible for
archeologists and paleontologists to distinguish one from the other from
their skeletons.
>> Did you know that the Japanese word <aoi> can mean either
>> "blue" or "green" (or anything in between)?
>
> It's curious that they use the same word for the color of leaves and
> the color of the sky.
Curious, perhaps. But having a single word that covers both "blue" and
"green" is very common in the languages of the world. It's commonly
called "grue" by colour researchers.
John.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> In the Chinese culture, it is implite to address a person of
Tak> higher social order by his name. Thus, the sibling rank
Tak> becomes a convenient alternative name that can be used by a
Tak> larger group of people. When a kid sees an relative for the
Tak> first time, his parent would instruct him on how to address
Tak> the latter -- "Come here and say hello to
Tak> Younger-brother-of-father Eight" or something like that.
Tak> Since younger-brother-of-father is just one word, this
Tak> address is no more cumbersome than say, "Uncle Octavio". In
Tak> fact, it is not unusual for a young kid to know his uncles'
Tak> and aunts' sibling rank but not their actual names.
Right. And we usually learn their names afterwards and passively by
observing how the higher-ranking relatives address them (by name).
Tak> Note that in the above case, if the father has just one
Tak> younger brother, the "Eight" can be dropped altogether.
And for the youngest sibling, a word meaning "last" is often used in
Cantonese.
Tak> Nonetheless, one's sibling ranking is generally well known
Tak> within the greater family.
Often better known than their names!
Lee Sau Dan
ranjit> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>> >>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com
>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
ranjit> Indian English speakers are able to be precise when
ranjit> speaking English; someone once introduced himself to me
ranjit> with "I'm your mother's brother's wife's sister's
ranjit> husband's sister's husband":-) In Malayalam, that would
ranjit> require just 3 relationship words rather than 7.
>> >> In Chinese, it involves only 3 kinship terms, too. :)
>>
ranjit> ... but it wouldn't involve just kinship terms, would it?
ranjit> Wouldn't it also include names?
>> No. Just kinship terms connected by the possessive
>> postposition <de>. The beginning "I'm your" is rendered with 2
>> pronouns, the copula <shi4> and the possessive possessive <de>.
ranjit> The equivalent of "Ann-aunt's Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw"
ranjit> would be the whole sentence in Malayalam.
For the Chinese equivalent, that's just a noun phrase.
ranjit> I take it that Chinese doesn't allow elision of "I'm
ranjit> your".
Why not? It depends on context. A noun phrase can be a sentence.
ranjit> In Malayalam, it would be more common to say: Ann-aunt's
ranjit> Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw.
>> No. Not something like that in Chinese. When we need to
>> disambiguate among the uncles and aunties refered to by
>> identical kinship terms, we insert numbers before them. The
>> number is determined by their order among their siblings.
ranjit> So, your mother's brother's wife's sister's husband's
ranjit> sister's husband would have to learn how many elder
ranjit> siblings your mother's brother, his wife, her sister,
ranjit> etc. have before he can tell you precisely how he's
ranjit> related to you?
He could omit those number if he doesn't know it, or doesn't want to
bother about it. But in most cases, he does know the sibling
rankings. In Chinese culture, that's even more important than knowing
the actual names.
Lee Sau Dan
John> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>> Did you know that the Chinese word <yang2> can be either
>>> "goat" or "sheep"?
>> That's not surprising.
John> They're so close biologically that it's almost impossible
John> for archeologists and paleontologists to distinguish one
John> from the other from their skeletons.
<yang2> is a laymen term, nothing a technical jargon in archeology and
paleontology.
John> Curious, perhaps. But having a single word that covers both
John> "blue" and "green" is very common in the languages of the
John> world. It's commonly called "grue" by colour researchers.
Why not bleen? :)
Peter T. Daniels
> In the Chinese culture, it is implite to address a person of
> higher social order by his name. Thus, the sibling rank becomes
> a convenient alternative name that can be used by a larger group
> of people. When a kid sees an relative for the first time, his
> parent would instruct him on how to address the latter -- "Come
> here and say hello to Younger-brother-of-father Eight" or something
> like that. Since younger-brother-of-father is just one word,
> this address is no more cumbersome than say, "Uncle Octavio".
> In fact, it is not unusual for a young kid to know his uncles'
> and aunts' sibling rank but not their actual names. Note that
> in the above case, if the father has just one younger brother,
> the "Eight" can be dropped altogether.
Why would you call him "Eight" if there's only one?
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> >>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit mathews@yahoo com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> writes:
> ranjit> The equivalent of "Ann-aunt's Tom-broinlaw's broinlaw"
> ranjit> would be the whole sentence in Malayalam.
>
> For the Chinese equivalent, that's just a noun phrase.
> ranjit> I take it that Chinese doesn't allow elision of "I'm
> ranjit> your".
> Why not? It depends on context. A noun phrase can be a sentence.
I can't see why not but this seemed to indicate that it's not elided:
>> The beginning "I'm your" is rendered with 2
>> pronouns, the copula <shi4> and the possessive possessive <de>.
> ranjit> So, your mother's brother's wife's sister's husband's
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Perhaps he's sibling #8 and Eight is dropped because he's the only
sibling who's a younger brother.
noesy_parker
> In <qing1tian1> it refers to the BLUE sky.
>
> In <mian4qing1> it refers to a PALE shade of the skin.
"Nian3 qing1 qing1"?
>
> In <qing1le yi1pian4>, it refers to a dark blue area of the skin
> caused by an impact and the accumulation of "dead" blood under the
> skin.
>
I'm not really sure if it is really blue, since bruises can be a range
of colours - blue, black, purple, yellow and even green. This is due to
the colours of haemoglobin and its breakdown products bilirubin
(yellow), biliverdin (green) and others. Incidentally, it is the
various colours of haemoglobin and its broken down products that gives
the colours to the blood, bile, urine and faeces (the colour of faeces
rannges from yellow to dark brown depending on how long it has been in
your intestines and bilirubin oxidised by bacteria).
>
> noesy> it can be anything from green to blue to black.
>
> Right. It's an abstract colour, I'd say.
>
I suspect that "qing1" doesn't actually refers to any specific colour,
rather perhaps something like "raw", "light-coloured" or "clear-
coloured"? There are after all other words for "blue"(lan2) and
"green" (lu4). What does the dictionary says on this (I don't have a
good one the moment)?
>
Tak To
Mike Wright
> Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in
> news:87y7rx9...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de:
>
>>In <qing1tian1> it refers to the BLUE sky.
>>
>>In <mian4qing1> it refers to a PALE shade of the skin.
>
> "Nian3 qing1 qing1"?
>
>>In <qing1le yi1pian4>, it refers to a dark blue area of the skin
>>caused by an impact and the accumulation of "dead" blood under the
>>skin.
>
> I'm not really sure if it is really blue, since bruises can be a range
> of colours - blue, black, purple, yellow and even green. This is due to
> the colours of haemoglobin and its breakdown products bilirubin
> (yellow), biliverdin (green) and others. Incidentally, it is the
> various colours of haemoglobin and its broken down products that gives
> the colours to the blood, bile, urine and faeces (the colour of faeces
> rannges from yellow to dark brown depending on how long it has been in
> your intestines and bilirubin oxidised by bacteria).
>
>> noesy> it can be anything from green to blue to black.
>>
>>Right. It's an abstract colour, I'd say.
What would a non-abstract color be?
> I suspect that "qing1" doesn't actually refers to any specific colour,
> rather perhaps something like "raw", "light-coloured" or "clear-
> coloured"? There are after all other words for "blue"(lan2) and
> "green" (lu4). What does the dictionary says on this (I don't have a
> good one the moment)?
_ABC_ says "nature's color; green; blue; greenish black".
I'm not sure I'd make too much of figurative uses--and I'd make even
less of English translations of those uses.
For example, a "pale shade of skin" can be a bit greenish.
Should we likewise say that English "black" doesn't actually refer to
any specific color because "black skin", "black tea", "black haws",
"black roses", and "black diamonds" aren't all the same color as my
"black car"?
How about the widely varying colors of "red squirrels", "red roses", and
"redskins"? Or, "blue foxes", "blue spruce", and "blue babies"? Or,
even, "green herons", "green snakes", and "green turtles"?
How does the "yellow race" compare to the color of a lemon? Am I really
a "white" person? Is Colin Powell really "black"?
I'd more interested in how native speakers naturally apply <qing1> to
actual objects in their daily lives when they are being neither literary
nor overly analytical.
Tak To
As with names for flora and fauna, there is considerable dialectal
and variation. In contemporary Cantonese, <qing1> is a rather
specific yellowish green color -- just ask any kids to pick out the
<qing1> one from a bunch of crayons. OTOH <qing1> in Mandarin is
less specific, and is used less frequently as a color.
The average Cantonese (or native Mandarin speaker for that
matter) is probably unaware that <qing1> in Classical Chinese
covers a broader color spectrum than in today's vernacular.
Thus if you ask one why the sky is <qing1> as in <yu3 guo4
tian1 qing1> (rain - passed - sky - ...) he will probably say
<qing1> is an abstract, non-chromatic quality.
So there are phrases inherited from Classical Chinese that are
associated with <qing1>, like sky, mountains, or new grass,
that people would use automatically without thinking about
the actual color. This is true for both Cantonese and Mandarin.
The situation is not unlike that in English, the hair of a
"red-head" is more like carrot like.
I also think that we should distinguish derivative or metaphorical
meanings of <qing1> from the original, literal meaning of a color.
For example, a "<qing1> complexion" is not literally green, just
"non-sanguine" and unhealthy looking. The same for <qing1>
meaning raw or unriped, which parallels that of "green" in
English. ("Green" even means "inexperienced" in English.)
I am not sure what "light-colored" or "clear-colored" meaning
you are referring to. Are you by chance confused <qing1>
with a homophonic character that is written with a water
radical?
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
> a "<qing1> complexion" is not literally green, just
> "non-sanguine" and unhealthy looking.
Sallow/ wan (looking sickly, or not "in the pink") or "green about the
gills" (looking sick, such as in the case of seasickness)?
> I am not sure what "light-colored" or "clear-colored" meaning
> you are referring to.
Hmm, are colors typically nouns in any language families other than
Dravidian, requiring an affix or inflection to turn them into
adjectives? In Tamil:
stem: paccay = green(n)
with adjectival suffix: paccayAna kARu = green-ous car
with adverbial affix: paccayA pEnTpaNNa kARu = green-ly painted car
used as noun: anda mAdari pacca illay = not that kind of green
An equivalent in English would be ash(n)+en(suffix) = ashen(adj),
except that ash is not inherently a color like green is.
Tak To
I think we are getting off track here. I could not think of an example
in which <qing1> means "light-colored" or "clear-colored" -- hence
my question.
noesy_parker
news:z6udnQNL4JMFg7nY...@comcast.com:
>
> I also think that we should distinguish derivative or metaphorical
> meanings of <qing1> from the original, literal meaning of a color.
> For example, a "<qing1> complexion" is not literally green, just
> "non-sanguine" and unhealthy looking.
I actually think that it is a true description. I've never thought
before that the descriptions of someone's face "darkened" or "turned
white" are true until I actually saw them happening, and I have seen
people faces acquiring a slight greenish tinge when they were ill.
> The same for <qing1>
> meaning raw or unriped, which parallels that of "green" in
> English. ("Green" even means "inexperienced" in English.)
>
> I am not sure what "light-colored" or "clear-colored" meaning
> you are referring to. Are you by chance confused <qing1>
> with a homophonic character that is written with a water
> radical?
That was just me speculating aloud whether <qing1>, if it doesn't
originally mean "green", what meaning it might originally be. I think
Mike Wright answered that suggesting that it can mean "nature's colour".
Perhaps it originally meant "colour as natured intended", or "clear
unsullied colour", hence you get <qing1 tian1> or <qing1 cao3>, only
later was a specific colour or colours associated with the word. Is
that possible?
Lee Sau Dan
>> I am not sure what "light-colored" or "clear-colored" meaning
>> you are referring to.
ranjit> Hmm, are colors typically nouns in any language families
ranjit> other than Dravidian, requiring an affix or inflection to
ranjit> turn them into adjectives?
No. In Chinese -- an isolating language --, colour terms can be both
adjectives and nouns and even verbs. Without any inflections at all
(of course!)
Mike Wright
There are two main categories of color words in Japanese. Bart can
probably do a better job of explaining them than I can, but I'll give it
a shot.
The following are adjectives ending in "-i", which has inflected forms,
such as "-ku" and "-katta". (They can also appear without the adjectival
ending in certain cases.)
kuro(i) black
ao(i) grue
aka(i) red
shiro(i) white
The following are more noun like, requiring the postposition "no" to
attach them to nouns (except in compounds):
ai dark blue
midori green
pinku pink
ki yellow
"Ki" tends to have "iro" ("color") appended to it. I've seen "ai" that
way, too. Since "no" is not required, I guess I'd take "kiiro" and
"aiiro" as compounds. (IIRC, "kiiro(i)" is not uncommon.)
ranjit_...@yahoo.com
Tak To wrote:
> ranjit_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Tak To wrote:
> >
> >>a "<qing1> complexion" is not literally green, just
> >>"non-sanguine" and unhealthy looking.
> >
> >
> > Sallow/ wan (looking sickly, or not "in the pink") or "green about the
> > gills" (looking sick, such as in the case of seasickness)?
> >
> >
> >>I am not sure what "light-colored" or "clear-colored" meaning
> >>you are referring to.
> >
> >
> > Hmm, are colors typically nouns in any language families other than
> > Dravidian, requiring an affix or inflection to turn them into
> > adjectives? In Tamil:
> >
> > stem: paccay = green(n)
> > with adjectival suffix: paccayAna kARu = green-ous car
> > with adverbial affix: paccayA pEnTpaNNa kARu = green-ly painted car
> > used as noun: anda mAdari pacca illay = not that kind of green
> >
> > An equivalent in English would be ash(n)+en(suffix) = ashen(adj),
> > except that ash is not inherently a color like green is.
>
> I think we are getting off track here. I could not think of an example
> in which <qing1> means "light-colored" or "clear-colored" -- hence
> my question.
Your adding colored rather than just calling them "light" and "clear"
made the Chinese equivalents of light and clear seem like nouns; it
reminded me of the Tamil term for grey, a term which may be literally
translated as ash-colored.
Mike Wright
>>>>>>"Mike" == Mike Wright <ne...@raccoonbend.com> writes:
>
>
> Mike> Chinese <qing1> (same character) is used the same way. My
> Mike> wife tended to translate it into English rather
> Mike> randomly. When she said something like "He was driving a
> Mike> blue car", it might well turn out that the car was actually
> Mike> green. But when I pinned her down, she could tell me which
> Mike> color it really was.
>
> Does she use the colour term <lü4>?
"Does" isn't quite approriate here, I'm afraid. She died last year.
> Is it used in Hokkien?
They have the term /lIk5/. I'm not sure I ever heard her use it.
> Mike> Sensitive psychological tests can evaluate the color
> Mike> perception of these 'extraordinary' women. If the visual
> Mike> cortex learned to process advantageously the additional
> Mike> wavelength information, these _tetrachromat_ women would
> Mike> experience subtle hue variations forever unavailable to the
> Mike> rest of humanity. In particular, they should be able to
> Mike> distinguish two colors that look identical to trichromats."
>
> Can they see infrared or ultraviolet?
No. It looks to me that they would just be able to distinguish subranges
of some particular range of the visible spectrum.
> Mike> But, for example, Chinese culture traditionally placed less
> Mike> importance on the female line, so there are terms to
> Mike> differentiate betweeen "younger brother's xxx" and "older
> Mike> brother's xxx", but only single terms for "sister's xxx"--in
> Mike> spite of the fact that there are distinct terms for "younger
> Mike> sister" and "older sister".
>
> Really? I can think of <jie3fu1> vs. <mei4fu1> for both
> brothers-in-law.
Sorry, I didn't get that quite right. I didn't think it through before I
wrote it. I actually had aunts and uncles in mind.
What I was thinking of was, for example, that there is one term for
"father's elder brother" and another for "father's younger brother", but
only one term for "mothers brother", without regard to age ranking. The
same goes for their sisters.
Likewise, there are distinct terms for "father's elder brother's wife"
and "father's younger brother's wife", but only one term for "mother's
brother's wife".
> Mike> It's interesting that all of the Chinese languages seem to
> Mike> make the same distinctions in this area, but don't seem to
> Mike> use exactly the same terms. Anyone want to make some
> Mike> comparisons among Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokkien?
> Mike> (And don't we have any Shanghai speakers here?)
>
> You should perhaps add "Modern Standard Written Chinese" to the list.
> e.g. Mandarin <nai3nai> is MSWC <zu3mu3> -- quite different.
So, you don't think that native speakers of Mandarin would ever say
<zu3mu3> in conversation?
(And why doesn't sci.lang seem to attract native speakers of anything
but Cantonese--and our lone Hakka-speaker, of course? Where are the
folks from Beijing, Chongqing, Fuzhou, Shanghai, and Taipei? Is it
because only Hong Kongers are computer literate? Or is it because
they're about the only ones with adequate English?)
> Mike> Chinese speakers felt that one's older siblings were
> Mike> "really" distinct from one's younger siblings, while people
> Mike> in some other cultures didn't see things that way.
>
> That applies not only siblings, but also cousins. For relatives in
> the same generation, the relative age plays an important role in the
> "ranking". One should only use kinship terms to address the elder
> siblings and cousins, as well as relatives of earlier generations.
> For the others, addressing by name is common.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.raccoonbend.com
Dylan Sung
"Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
news:z6udnQNL4JMFg7nY...@comcast.com...
> So there are phrases inherited from Classical Chinese that are
> associated with <qing1>, like sky, mountains, or new grass,
> that people would use automatically without thinking about
> the actual color. This is true for both Cantonese and Mandarin.
> The situation is not unlike that in English, the hair of a
> "red-head" is more like carrot like.
qing1 nian2 zi = a youth
Kinda like the English notion of 'green' as in unexperienced.
Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
Dylan> news:z6udnQNL4JMFg7nY...@comcast.com...
>> So there are phrases inherited from Classical Chinese that are
>> associated with <qing1>, like sky, mountains, or new grass,
>> that people would use automatically without thinking about the
>> actual color. This is true for both Cantonese and Mandarin.
>> The situation is not unlike that in English, the hair of a
>> "red-head" is more like carrot like.
Dylan> qing1 nian2 zi = a youth
Never seen/heard this expression. One says <nian2qing1ren2> or simply
<qing1nian2>. Even <qing1nian2ren2> sounds dialectual to me.
Tak To
>>>>>>"Dylan" == Dylan Sung <dylanwhs....@pacific.net.hk> writes:
>
> Dylan> "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
> Dylan> news:z6udnQNL4JMFg7nY...@comcast.com...
> >> So there are phrases inherited from Classical Chinese that are
> >> associated with <qing1>, like sky, mountains, or new grass,
> >> that people would use automatically without thinking about the
> >> actual color. This is true for both Cantonese and Mandarin.
> >> The situation is not unlike that in English, the hair of a
> >> "red-head" is more like carrot like.
>
> Dylan> qing1 nian2 zi = a youth
This is more of a figurative usage. I try to distinguish figurative
usage from "customary-but-non-factual" usage such as 雨過天青
<yu3guo4tian1qing1> "rain - passed - sky - green".
> Never seen/heard this expression. One says <nian2qing1ren2> or simply
> <qing1nian2>. Even <qing1nian2ren2> sounds dialectual to me.
I think all are non-native to Cantonese but they have been
incorporated into SWC for so long so they don't sound so alien.
A more native phrase for Cantonese is 年輕 <nian2 qing1> but
this <qing1> means "light (not heavy)". The two <qing1>'s
are pronounced differently in Cantonese. 青 <qing1> "green" is
/ts'IN55/ (literal) or /ts'EN55/ (colloquial); whereas 輕 <qing1>
"light" is /hEN55/.
I have always wondered if 年青 <nian2qinq1> "year - green" and
年輕 "year - light" are related. OT1H they are homophonous in
Mandarin and mean exactly the same things; OTOH they are not
homophonous in other dialects (or LMC) and you can't invert the
latter to 輕年 <qing1nian2> like the former.
Btw, it is interesting to note that another color word that used
to mean green/blue (but perhaps in a darker shade) -- 蒼 <cang1>
-- has been transformed to mean "old". Like 青 <qing1>, 蒼 <cang1>
was used to describe the sky 蒼天 <cang1 tian1> or even the "green
dragon" constellation as in 蒼龍白虎 <cang1long2 bai2hu3> (青龍白虎
<qing1long2 bai2hu3> seemed to appear later). It was also used to
describe the color of old trees (probably covered with moss). The
non-chromatic sense of "old" becomes dorminant, leading to phrases
like 白髮蒼蒼 <bai2fa3 cang1cang1> that describe the hair of an old
man. In contemporary Chinese the chromatic meaning is probably
just grey or grey white, thus to most Chinese 蒼天 <cang1 tian1>
probably just means a grey sky.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> I have always wondered if 年青 <nian2qinq1> "year - green"
Tak> and 年輕 "year - light" are related. OT1H they are
Tak> homophonous in Mandarin and mean exactly the same things;
Tak> OTOH they are not homophonous in other dialects (or LMC) and
Tak> you can't invert the latter to 輕年 <qing1nian2> like the
Tak> former.
Did this term occur in Classical Chinese at all?
One former Chinese teacher of mine said that when <nian2qing1> was to
be written in SWC, people started to write it in two different ways.
And based on the "my hand writes my mouth" principle, both forms are
accepted as the "correct" way to write that Mandarin expression. This
teacher said that some people even accepted writing <jian4jian4de> as
"見見地" instead of "漸漸地".
Of course, those pairs sound differently in many southern Chinese
languages. But who have say? SWC is based on Mandarin, and so only
Mandarin speakers' interests are entertained. "my hand writes my
mouth" is a privilege of people who speak the more prestigious
language called Mandarin.
Tak> Btw, it is interesting to note that another color word that
Tak> used to mean green/blue (but perhaps in a darker shade) -- 蒼
Tak> <cang1> -- has been transformed to mean "old". Like 青
Tak> <qing1>, 蒼 <cang1> was used to describe the sky 蒼天 <cang1
Tak> tian1> or even the "green dragon" constellation as in 蒼龍白
Tak> 虎 <cang1long2 bai2hu3> (青龍白虎<qing1long2 bai2hu3> seemed
Tak> to appear later). It was also used to describe the color of
Tak> old trees (probably covered with moss). The non-chromatic
Tak> sense of "old" becomes dorminant, leading to phrases like 白
Tak> 髮蒼蒼 <bai2fa3 cang1cang1> that describe the hair of an old
Tak> man. In contemporary Chinese the chromatic meaning is
Tak> probably just grey or grey white, thus to most Chinese 蒼天
Tak> <cang1 tian1> probably just means a grey sky.
No. It doesn't mean grey. It means white.
What's the colour of an old person's hair? In English, you say
"grey". But in Chinese, we always say it's "white", never "grey".
And what is <cang1tian1>? A white sky? Maybe, here it means the
"naked sky", i.e. cloudless sky. Remember, <bai2> in Chinese not only
means "white", but also "pure", "empty", "in vain", etc.
Mike Wright
This point was made in something I read recently. The author (Qiu
Xigui?) claimed that 年青 was an error that had taken hold among
Mandarin speakers. The fact that 青年 exists with a meaning similar to
年輕 probably helped the error become established.
None of my Hokkien sources even show 年輕 at all. The most common term
seems to be 少年, followed by 青年. In the modern standard language, 少
年 seems to indicate greater youth than 青年, but I wonder if that's
always been a clear distinction.
輕 is a nice example of a velar initial before a high vowel going to a
palatal in Mandarin, with the ensuing decrease in distinctiveness.
Tak To
What I meant was /ts'IN55/ was the literary reading. And I
forgot to mention that 輕 <qing1> has a /hIN55/ literary reading
as well.
>>I have always wondered if 年青 <nian2qinq1> "year - green" and
>>年輕 "year - light" are related. OT1H they are homophonous in
>>Mandarin and mean exactly the same things; OTOH they are not
>>homophonous in other dialects (or LMC) and you can't invert the
>>latter to 輕年 <qing1nian2> like the former.
>>[...]
>
> This point was made in something I read recently. The author (Qiu
> Xigui?) claimed that 年青 was an error that had taken hold among
> Mandarin speakers. The fact that 青年 exists with a meaning similar to
> 年輕 probably helped the error become established.
>
> None of my Hokkien sources even show 年輕 at all. The most common term
> seems to be 少年, followed by 青年.
So Hokkien does not have phrases like 年輕力壯 <nian2qing1li4zhuang4> or
年輕有為 <nian2qing1you3wei2>?
Does Hokkien has 後生 <hou4sheng1>? That's another common term
for "youngster" in Cantonese.
> In the modern standard language, 少年 seems to indicate greater youth
> than 青年, but I wonder if that's always been a clear distinction.
Don't know about Taiwan, but in the PRC the two terms are often
used to label two non-overlapping age divisions. For example
中國少年先鋒隊 (aka 少先隊, 紅領巾, i.e. Young Pioneers) vs 中國
共產黨青年團 (aka 共青團, i.e. Komsomol). The two are strictly
separated at age 14/15. Similar, in sports or other group
activities, there might be a 少年組 and a 青年組, even though
the demarcation is not necessary the same from one context to
another.
Aidan Kehoe
Ar an cúigiú lá de mí Deireadh Fómhair, scríobh Mike Wright:
> (And why doesn't sci.lang seem to attract native speakers of anything but
> Cantonese--and our lone Hakka-speaker, of course? Where are the folks from
> Beijing, Chongqing, Fuzhou, Shanghai, and Taipei? Is it because only Hong
> Kongers are computer literate? Or is it because they're about the only ones
> with adequate English?)
Xah Lee’s from Taiwan, but he’s regularly to be read, it seems, everywhere
but here. Weird.
--
Santa Maradona, priez pour moi!
Mike Wright
Both of those phrases look to me like they might be literary in origin.
Are they?
All I can say is that none of my Hokkien dictionaries include 年輕 in
either literary (/lian24 k'iN55/) or colloquial (/ni~24 k'in55/)
pronunciations.
> Does Hokkien has 後生 <hou4sheng1>? That's another common term
> for "youngster" in Cantonese.
I don't find it under either literary (/hO33 siN55/) or colloquial
(/au33 ai~33/) readings.
This doesn't mean that the terms don't occur. Since my wife died,
though, all I have to refer to are my dictionaries. I saw Ekki Lu
posting on the "Tea" thread. Maybe he knows.
>>In the modern standard language, 少年 seems to indicate greater youth
>>than 青年, but I wonder if that's always been a clear distinction.
>
> Don't know about Taiwan, but in the PRC the two terms are often
> used to label two non-overlapping age divisions. For example
> 中國少年先鋒隊 (aka 少先隊, 紅領巾, i.e. Young Pioneers) vs 中國
> 共產黨青年團 (aka 共青團, i.e. Komsomol). The two are strictly
> separated at age 14/15. Similar, in sports or other group
> activities, there might be a 少年組 and a 青年組, even though
> the demarcation is not necessary the same from one context to
> another.
Yes, that's what I was thinking about. English "young person", "youth",
"juvenile", "child", "kid", and "minor" all have different shades of
meaning, but the only one that seems well-defined is "minor", which is
essentially a legal term. I suspect that formal administrative needs may
have created a strict modern dichotomy where none existed in the past.
Tak To
> (And why doesn't sci.lang seem to attract native speakers of anything
> but Cantonese--and our lone Hakka-speaker, of course? Where are the
> folks from Beijing, Chongqing, Fuzhou, Shanghai, and Taipei? Is it
> because only Hong Kongers are computer literate? Or is it because
> they're about the only ones with adequate English?)
I don't remember the background of Patrick Chew. Sebastian Hew
is from Malaysia so it could be Hakka or Chaozhou (a Minnan
dialect). Ekki Lu is a native Minnan speaker.
I think the number of frequent netters on sci.lang is just too
small to be statistically meaningful. Nonethesless...
English proficiency is definitely important, but familiarity
with the Usenet culture is a factor as well. NNTP server is not
a profit center for ISPs and many ISPs in the PRC and Taiwan don't
provide reliable Usenet service. PRC netters tend to congregate
around web-based BBS sites whereas in Taiwan there is a system of
university-run moderated BBS that sort of work together like a
Usenet Jr (lots of study related posts, etc).
Tak To
> Tak To wrote:
>
>> So Hokkien does not have phrases like 年輕力壯 <nian2qing1li4zhuang4> or
>> 年輕有為 <nian2qing1you3wei2>?
>
> Both of those phrases look to me like they might be literary in origin.
> Are they?
Not sure. In contemporary Cantonese, 年輕力壯 is quite colloquial. E.g.
我地老囉，唔似你地咁年輕力壯
We are old, not so young and strong like you guys.
年輕有為 is more like a standard (i.e., cliche) congrajulatory phrase.
你個仔真喺年輕有為
Your son is really a young man with great potentials.
Tak To
> Mike Wright wrote:
>
>
>>Tak To wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So Hokkien does not have phrases like 年輕力壯 <nian2qing1li4zhuang4> or
>>>年輕有為 <nian2qing1you3wei2>?
>>
>>Both of those phrases look to me like they might be literary in origin.
>>Are they?
>
>
> Not sure. In contemporary Cantonese, 年輕力壯 is quite colloquial. E.g.
> 我地老囉，唔似你地咁年輕力壯
> We are old, not so young and strong like you guys.
>
> 年輕有為 is more like a standard (i.e., cliche) congrajulatory phrase.
> 你個仔真喺年輕有為
> Your son is really a young man with great potentials.
Spoken in the colloquial pronunication of 輕 in both cases.
Lee Sau Dan
Mike> What I was thinking of was, for example, that there is one
Mike> term for "father's elder brother" and another for "father's
Mike> younger brother", but only one term for "mothers brother",
Mike> without regard to age ranking. The same goes for their
Mike> sisters.
Cantonese does have different terms for mother's younger vs. elder
sisters. But it doesn't distinguish between mother's younger
vs. elder brothers.
Mike> It's interesting that all of the Chinese languages seem to
Mike> make the same distinctions in this area, but don't seem to
Mike> use exactly the same terms.
No. See above. Some Chinese languages have finer distinctions in
some areas, but coarser ones in other areas.
Mike> Anyone want to make some comparisons among Mandarin,
Mike> Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokkien? (And don't we have any
Mike> Shanghai speakers here?)
>> You should perhaps add "Modern Standard Written Chinese" to
>> the list. e.g. Mandarin <nai3nai> is MSWC <zu3mu3> -- quite
>> different.
Mike> So, you don't think that native speakers of Mandarin would
Mike> ever say <zu3mu3> in conversation?
Yes, but only in formal conversations.
Mike> (And why doesn't sci.lang seem to attract native speakers of
Mike> anything but Cantonese--and our lone Hakka-speaker, of
Mike> course? Where are the folks from Beijing, Chongqing, Fuzhou,
Mike> Shanghai, and Taipei? Is it because only Hong Kongers are
Mike> computer literate? Or is it because they're about the only
Mike> ones with adequate English?)
I think the English-literacy has more to do with that than the
computer-literacy. Also, the awareness of the existence of sci.lang
is be low in PRC. English-literacy + computer-literacy + interest in
discussing about languages + knowing about sci.lang. That's a
combination quite difficult to find. Information censorship in the
PRC (excluding HK and Macao) should also play a role here.
Mike Wright
>>>>>>"Mike" == Mike Wright <ne...@raccoonbend.com> writes:
>
>
>
> Mike> What I was thinking of was, for example, that there is one
> Mike> term for "father's elder brother" and another for "father's
> Mike> younger brother", but only one term for "mothers brother",
> Mike> without regard to age ranking. The same goes for their
> Mike> sisters.
>
> Cantonese does have different terms for mother's younger vs. elder
> sisters. But it doesn't distinguish between mother's younger
> vs. elder brothers.
>
>
> Mike> It's interesting that all of the Chinese languages seem to
> Mike> make the same distinctions in this area, but don't seem to
> Mike> use exactly the same terms.
>
> No. See above. Some Chinese languages have finer distinctions in
> some areas, but coarser ones in other areas.
Yes, I wasn't expecting that. Very interesting. _Hanyu Fangyan Cihui_
lists 44 different relationships in 18 dialects/languages, but still
doesn't cover nearly all possible terms.
In many cases there are different terms used for directly addressing
someone vs. referring to them, and this varies from language to
language, as well.
Dylan Sung
"Mike Wright" <ne...@raccoonbend.com> wrote in message
news:12iiaft...@corp.supernews.com...
> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>>"Mike" == Mike Wright <ne...@raccoonbend.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike> What I was thinking of was, for example, that there is one
>> Mike> term for "father's elder brother" and another for "father's
>> Mike> younger brother", but only one term for "mothers brother",
>> Mike> without regard to age ranking. The same goes for their
>> Mike> sisters.
>>
>> Cantonese does have different terms for mother's younger vs. elder
>> sisters. But it doesn't distinguish between mother's younger
>> vs. elder brothers.
In Hakka,
大姑 aunt, father's older sister
大舅 uncle, mother's older brother
大姨 aunt, mother's older sister
阿姑仔 aunt, father's younger sister *
阿舅仔 uncle, mother's younger brother *
阿姨仔 aunt, mother's younger sister *
* with or without the pre- and post-fixes as these additional syllables are
often used in situations of familiarity.
阿娘 /a33 NjiON11/ aunt, father's older brother's wife
叔姆 /suk3 mE33/ aunt, father's younger brother's wife
叔嬸 /suk3 sim33/ ditto [1]
叔娘 /suk2 NjiON55/ ditto [2]
[1] and [2] are regional variations. For father's younger brother's wife, I
generally use 叔姆 whilst the wife in her different dialect of Hakka uses the
latter both [1] and [2]. I
阿姆仔 [a33 mE33 tsai31] is another possibility, and used to show a certain
degree of familiarity, for instance if two women are friends and whose
husbands are not necessarily related, but considered to be of the same
generational rank, but this term is used for the younger of the two women.
The children of the older women may even follow this term of address towards
the younger 'aunt' as well.
I've not updated my family kinship page here for a long time. But most of it
will be familiar to those with a background in Chinese.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hakga/family.htm
In anycase, I've been told by my dad once that we should learn the list of
generation names as you can occasionally meet someone who you've never met
before of the same surname, and they may ask what it is, your /su55 pui53/
字輩, or /pui55 su53/ 輩字. They can then work out immediately the appropriate
rank to address each other. Even though a person is younger, his generation
name may be higher, therefore you could address the younger person as an
'uncle' 叔. This is often done in formal occasions like traditional wedding
feasts where arriving guests are introduced to the bride and groom who must
welcome the arrivals by the proper rank as a form of respect to them.
Dyl.
Dylan Sung
"Dylan Sung" <dylanwhs....@pacific.net.hk> wrote in message
news:4ot4e2F...@individual.net...
>
> ... 叔姆
> 阿姆仔 [a33 mE33 tsai31]
where the latter is understood to be "contraction" of 叔姆 .
Dyl.
Tak To
The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar relative
rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I am surprised that
you mention only this. For examples, don't you call friends of your
father 叔 and 伯 as well?
> In anycase, I've been told by my dad once that we should learn the list
> of generation names as you can occasionally meet someone who you've
> never met before of the same surname, and they may ask what it is, your
> /su55 pui53/ 字輩, or /pui55 su53/ 輩字. They can then work out
> immediately the appropriate rank to address each other. Even though a
> person is younger, his generation name may be higher, therefore you
> could address the younger person as an 'uncle' 叔. This is often done in
> formal occasions like traditional wedding feasts where arriving guests
> are introduced to the bride and groom who must welcome the arrivals by
> the proper rank as a form of respect to them.
The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly, I am
afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow the tradition.
In fact, I have a one character given name. My sisters have two
character given names but there is no common character between them.
Dylan Sung
"Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
> The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar relative
> rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I am surprised that
> you mention only this. For examples, don't you call friends of your
> father 叔 and 伯 as well?
Yes, and generally some given name that my father used for them too for
example /a33 ts'Oi11 suk3/ Unlce Ts'oi etc..
In English, one occasionally hear people referring to their Grandma Kelly
where 'Kelly' is the surname. We have that for the wives of uncles in the
village, so, /ts'in11 a33 NjiON11/ Aunt Ts'in (Cantonese Chan, Mandarin
Chen) and so forth. Often the surname comes first though, but occasionally,
you hear /a33 van53 sau31/ sister-in-law Van (Cantonese Man, Mandarin Wan).
> The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly, I am
> afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow the tradition.
> In fact, I have a one character given name. My sisters have two
> character given names but there is no common character between them.
Do you know your generation names? Generation names in my surname have all
but ceased, with my nephews having one, but there are none after that. I
know ours for twelve generations, and there are folks who are two ranks
above my generation that I call great uncle, and below my rank, I think
there are two or three more generations. So those of the lowest generation,
the youngesters may be calling the highest ranked generation by
great-great-great uncle or something like that... I guess a lot of folk are
considering it rather old fashioned. And with mainland policies of single
kid families, there won't be uncles and aunts eventually.
Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar
Tak> relative rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I
Tak> am surprised that you mention only this. For examples, don't
Tak> you call friends of your father 叔 and 伯 as well?
Also in Vietnamese. Even the pronouns are derived from them. Is that
right, Mike?
Tak> The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly,
Tak> I am afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow
Tak> the tradition.
Yes. But I still know what generational name I belong to. And that
can be used to compare with my relatives.
noesy_parker
>>
>> The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly, I am
>> afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow the tradition.
>> In fact, I have a one character given name. My sisters have two
>> character given names but there is no common character between them.
>
> Do you know your generation names? Generation names in my surname have
> all but ceased, with my nephews having one, but there are none after
> that.
Generation name is fixed, so it doesn't matter if someone decides not to
use it, anyone in future can choose to resume it as long as they choose
the right generation name. I can imagine why people don't want
particular generation name as it may not sound nice, but a future
generation may prefer theirs.
I don't know what the origin of generation names is, someone told me
that they were bestowed by an emperor but I have no idea if this is
true. The generation names also seem to be more common among some
people than others, not sure why that is, is it class based?
Mike Wright
>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
>
> Tak> The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar
> Tak> relative rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I
> Tak> am surprised that you mention only this. For examples, don't
> Tak> you call friends of your father 叔 and 伯 as well?
>
> Also in Vietnamese. Even the pronouns are derived from them. Is that
> right, Mike?
I don't know much about it. Vietnamese second-person "pronouns" *all*
seem to be terms of address. Is that what you're referring to?
> Tak> The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly,
> Tak> I am afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow
> Tak> the tradition.
>
> Yes. But I still know what generational name I belong to. And that
> can be used to compare with my relatives.
The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
This was commonly done by dropping the 子 and adding some other
character. In my wife's family, this was done somewhat randomly, going
for meaning, rather than for consistency. 英子 became 英美; 貴子 became
寶貴.
Tak To
>
> "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
> news:jJSdnd1Lu9lD6bfY...@comcast.com...
>
>> afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow the tradition.
>> In fact, I have a one character given name. My sisters have two
>> character given names but there is no common character between them.
>
> Do you know your generation names?
No. I know only one brother of my father, and his sons's names
share a character. However, I cannot be sure if that character
pertains just to their family or for the entire generation in
the clan. I am not sure if my father knows.
For a number different reasons both my parents are somewhat
unsentimental about keeping old traditions.
Tak To
> "Dylan Sung" <dylanwhs....@pacific.net.hk> wrote in
> news:4ovo10F...@individual.net:
>
>>>The practice of "generational name" is dying rather rapidly, I am
>>>afraid. In my family, my father decided not to follow the tradition.
>>>In fact, I have a one character given name. My sisters have two
>>>character given names but there is no common character between them.
>>
>>Do you know your generation names? Generation names in my surname have
>>all but ceased, with my nephews having one, but there are none after
>>that.
>
> Generation name is fixed, so it doesn't matter if someone decides not to
> use it, anyone in future can choose to resume it as long as they choose
> the right generation name.
If they remember the list and the list has not exhausted.
> I can imagine why people don't want
> particular generation name as it may not sound nice, but a future
> generation may prefer theirs.
Some people are just weary of old traditions.
> I don't know what the origin of generation names is, someone told me
> that they were bestowed by an emperor but I have no idea if this is
> true. The generation names also seem to be more common among some
> people than others, not sure why that is, is it class based?
Each clan has its own list. (A clan here is basically defined by the
sharing of a clan memorial hall.) Usually it is composed by the a
prominent scholar in the clan's past. A list from the Emperor is
an unusual honor. Typically the list is in the form of a verse
with four character sentences.
Generation names are probably more common in the South. It seems
that single character given names are more common in the North.
Tak To
> The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
> pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
> their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
> form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
Required? Was there a law?
noesy_parker
>>
>> Generation name is fixed, so it doesn't matter if someone decides not
>> to use it, anyone in future can choose to resume it as long as they
>> choose the right generation name.
>
> If they remember the list and the list has not exhausted.
>
The lists are can't get exhausted because they can be repeated
continuously. The internet may have changed things a bit, I was quite
surprised when I googled it a few minutes ago and found my family's
generation name verse (well, I think it is mine, I recognised a few of
the generation names in the correct order). My name doesn't have a
generation name, but my eldest brother, his children and grandchildren
all use the generation name, so did the children of another brother even
though he himself doesn't use the generation name.
Lee Sau Dan
>> Generation name is fixed, so it doesn't matter if someone
>> decides not to use it, anyone in future can choose to resume it
>> as long as they choose the right generation name.
Tak> If they remember the list and the list has not exhausted.
In my "family tree book", there is a poem with 4x7 characters. The
generation names are based on these 28 characters. So, if we can keep
passing the book to later generations, they can know the list.
Exhaustion isn't a problem. They can just recycle it. It won't be
possible for relatives 28 generations apart to be alive at the same
time, and still in constant contact. :)
Tak> Each clan has its own list. (A clan here is basically defined
Tak> by the sharing of a clan memorial hall.) Usually it is
Tak> composed by the a prominent scholar in the clan's past.
Oh! Perhaps, that explains why my list is based on a poem.
Tak> A list from the Emperor is an unusual honor. Typically the
Tak> list is in the form of a verse with four character sentences.
Mine too.
Tak> Generation names are probably more common in the South. It
Tak> seems that single character given names are more common in
Tak> the North.
Or just a modern trend?
Lee Sau Dan
Tak> The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar
Tak> relative rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I
Tak> am surprised that you mention only this. For examples, don't
Tak> you call friends of your father 叔 and 伯 as well?
>> Also in Vietnamese. Even the pronouns are derived from them.
>> Is that right, Mike?
Mike> I don't know much about it. Vietnamese second-person
Mike> "pronouns" *all* seem to be terms of address. Is that what
Mike> you're referring to?
Yes. But aren't 3p pronouns in Vietnamese formed by compounding with
2p pronouns? e.g. "he" <== "that you(mas.)"?
Mike> The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably
Mike> disrupted by the pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese
Mike> names. My wife's brothers just kept their Japanese names, 松
Mike> 雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in form, but all
Mike> the women were required to change names ending in "ko"
Mike> 子.
That's so strange. Japanese women aren't all called "XXX-ko".
yky
>>>>>>"Mike" == Mike Wright <ne...@raccoonbend.com> writes:
>
> Mike> The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably
> Mike> disrupted by the pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese
> Mike> names. My wife's brothers just kept their Japanese names,
> Mike> the women were required to change names ending in "ko"
> Mike> 子.
>
> That's so strange. Japanese women aren't all called "XXX-ko".
>
The rule was to adopt Japanese names. Japanese female names not
always ending with ko make sense because three of my aunts who
were born before 1945 have their names ended with something other
than ko, one with la, two with sa. Those who were born after 1945
use Chinese names.
Peter T. Daniels
Tak To wrote:
> Mike Wright wrote:
> > The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
> > pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
> > their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
> > form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
>
> Required? Was there a law?
Are you unfamiliar with the history of the Japanese occupation of China?
Tak To
Are you familiar with law in post WII Taiwan?
Dylan Sung
"Lee Sau Dan" <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message
news:8764erd...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
>>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
> >> Generation name is fixed, so it doesn't matter if someone
> >> decides not to use it, anyone in future can choose to resume it
> >> as long as they choose the right generation name.
>
> Tak> If they remember the list and the list has not exhausted.
>
> In my "family tree book", there is a poem with 4x7 characters. The
> generation names are based on these 28 characters. So, if we can keep
> passing the book to later generations, they can know the list.
> Exhaustion isn't a problem. They can just recycle it. It won't be
> possible for relatives 28 generations apart to be alive at the same
> time, and still in constant contact. :)
I found one for the surname Lin/Lam/Lim/Ling "林姓昭穆字辈" here
http://blog.wenxuecity.com/myblog.php?blogID=10876
near in pale turquoisey green the bottom of that page. Looks like there are
many regional variations and also outright different ones. I guess the
tradition of keeping them would most likely honour someone who installed it
in the first place... However, my family generation names aren't in any
discernable poem I can find. I guess that may be the case others too.
>
>
>
> Tak> Each clan has its own list. (A clan here is basically defined
> Tak> by the sharing of a clan memorial hall.) Usually it is
> Tak> composed by the a prominent scholar in the clan's past.
>
> Oh! Perhaps, that explains why my list is based on a poem.
>
>
> Tak> A list from the Emperor is an unusual honor. Typically the
> Tak> list is in the form of a verse with four character sentences.
>
> Mine too.
>
>
> Tak> Generation names are probably more common in the South. It
> Tak> seems that single character given names are more common in
> Tak> the North.
>
> Or just a modern trend?
>
I read somewhere that the keeping of clan genealogies only really got big
during the Southern Song dynasty during a period of internal turmoil after
the loss of the north to the Jin. People began keeping them as a way of
recording where they'd come from. That may be why it is mostly a southern
tradition, because their ancestors fled southwards... One upshot of this is
that some clan genealogies may in fact have a fake list of ancestors as some
people may want to infer that they had illustrious ones....
Dyl.
Peter T. Daniels
Tak To wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Tak To wrote:
> >
> >>Mike Wright wrote:
> >>
> >>>The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
> >>>pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
> >>>their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
> >>>form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
> >>
> >>Required? Was there a law?
> >
> > Are you unfamiliar with the history of the Japanese occupation of China?
>
> Are you familiar with law in post WII Taiwan?
No. What does that have to do with the pre-1945 Japanese occupation of
China (including Formosa)?
Joachim Pense
Mike mentioned that women were required to change their Japanese names
_after the war_, and Tak to asked if there was a law forcing them.
Well, Mike didn explicitly say "after the war", but his story wouldn't
make sense otherwise.
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels
The only use of a form of "require" was with reference to the pre-1945
requirement to use Japanese names.
When Tak To inquired "Required? Was there a law?" cannot have referred
to anything but that pre-1945 Japanese requirement, which required all
Chinese women to change names ending in -ko.
Mike Wright
> Tak To wrote:
>
>>Mike Wright wrote:
>>
>>>The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
>>>pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
>>>their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
>>>form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
>>
>>Required? Was there a law?
To answer this one here: Yes, the KMT didn't want Chinese at that time
to have names that were so obviously Japanese.
> Are you unfamiliar with the history of the Japanese occupation of China?
They didn't exactly occupy Taiwan--at least not in the way they did
other parts of Asia at the beginning of WW2. It was ceded to them in
1895, so it was legally a colony--even though it was part of the spoils
of war.
Mike Wright
> Joachim Pense wrote:
>
>>Am 11 Oct 2006 04:56:39 -0700 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>>
>>>Tak To wrote:
>>>
>>>>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Tak To wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike Wright wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably disrupted by the
>>>>>>>pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese names. My wife's brothers just kept
>>>>>>>their Japanese names, 松雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in
>>>>>>>form, but all the women were required to change names ending in "ko" 子.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Required? Was there a law?
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you unfamiliar with the history of the Japanese occupation of China?
>>>>
>>>>Are you familiar with law in post WII Taiwan?
>>>
>>>No. What does that have to do with the pre-1945 Japanese occupation of
>>>China (including Formosa)?
>>
>>Mike mentioned that women were required to change their Japanese names
>>_after the war_, and Tak to asked if there was a law forcing them.
>>
>>Well, Mike didn explicitly say "after the war", but his story wouldn't
>>make sense otherwise.
>
> The only use of a form of "require" was with reference to the pre-1945
> requirement to use Japanese names.
Actually, I said: "... all the women were *required* to change names
ending in "ko" 子." And right after that, Tak To said: "*Required*? Was
there a law?"
To answer his question: I believe that there was, indeed, a law (or
regulation) that required names ending in "ko" to be changed, as they
were generally clearly idenitfiable as being Japanese names. Other
names, such as those of my brothers-in-law, were allowed to slide by. It
may be that other identifiably Japanese names, such as those with
"-tarou" 太郎 also had to be changed, but I don't have any personal
knowledge of that.
The Chinese government was very sensitive about Japanese influences in
Taiwan. And they should have been. The Taiwanese had a little saying, "
狗走了，豬來了" ("When the dogs left, the pigs came."), but many of them
developed a strong pro-Japanese feeling after their initial experiences
with the KMT, becoming downright nostalgic and downplaying the negative
aspects of Japanese rule.
> When Tak To inquired "Required? Was there a law?" cannot have referred
> to anything but that pre-1945 Japanese requirement, which required all
> Chinese women to change names ending in -ko.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.raccoonbend.com
Mike Wright
>>>>>>"Mike" == Mike Wright <ne...@raccoonbend.com> writes:
>
>
> Tak> The use of kinship terms to address non-relatives (of similar
> Tak> relative rank) is very wide spread among Chinese dialects. I
> Tak> am surprised that you mention only this. For examples, don't
> Tak> you call friends of your father 叔 and 伯 as well?
> >> Also in Vietnamese. Even the pronouns are derived from them.
> >> Is that right, Mike?
>
> Mike> I don't know much about it. Vietnamese second-person
> Mike> "pronouns" *all* seem to be terms of address. Is that what
> Mike> you're referring to?
>
> Yes. But aren't 3p pronouns in Vietnamese formed by compounding with
> 2p pronouns? e.g. "he" <== "that you(mas.)"?
If I recall correctly (and I may not), 2p pronouns are words like "young
lady" (co), "married lady" (ba), "gentleman" (ong), etc. For 3p, they
append the words for "this" (nay) or "that" (ay). (I'm too lazy to do
the VN tones.)
It may be that relatives get addressed using relationship terms, but
things like "that elder brother" for 3p seems less likely. However, this
is strictly a guess. Didn't I recently see a response here on sci.lang
from someone who actually speaks Vietnamese?
> Mike> The use of generational names in Taiwan was probably
> Mike> disrupted by the pre-1945 requirement to use Japanese
> Mike> names. My wife's brothers just kept their Japanese names, 松
> Mike> 雄 and 義弘, which could pass for Chinese in form, but all
> Mike> the women were required to change names ending in "ko"
> Mike> 子.
>
> That's so strange. Japanese women aren't all called "XXX-ko".
Only identifiably Japanese names had to change, not all Japanese women's
names. It happens that my wife and all of her sisters born prior to 1945
had the "-ko" ending (as did some of her cousins). A couple of them,
Eiko and Keiko, are still called by their Japanese names by the older
folks in the family.
In fact, Keiko is commonly called "A-ko". Similarly, my wife's younger
brother is called "A-chiang", where "chiang" is a Hokkienization of
Japanese "-chan", the familiar form of "-san". (I find the /N/ for the
Japanese syllabic nasal interesting.) I think they must have called him
"Masahiro-chan" at some point in his childhood.
Joachim Pense
The women who had names ending in -ko had to change them deleting the
-ko, as -ko is a typical Japanese ending of female names.
Joachim