Socks and sacks
Unknown
if IE words for socks (such as Greek sukkhos/sukchas, L. soccus, OHG.
soch, soc, MLG. socke, MDu. socke, soc) could be as related as they
appear to be to IE words for sacks (Gk sakkos, L. saccus, OE sakkiz,
etc). Of course, if this were the case, these words for socks would
also be related to Phoenician sakkos, Hebrew Hebrew saq, Akkadian
saqqu and, perhaps even Sumerian sag 'head', since heads are, like
socks and sacks, essentially containers.
Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated Thanks in advance.
Unknown
anal...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have read somewhere that the invention of bags must have been a
great technological step forward for homo sapiens (the "gathering"
part of hunting-gathering). I would suspect bags/sacks were named
very early in the development of language and perhaps this goes back
to nostratic. While Tamil has sAkku, there is no such word in
Sanskrit.
Franz may have his own take - If I recall correctly, he theorizes that
babies were placed in bags in the Ice Age to able to carry them around
easily.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Jul 2, 8:38 am, Bill Schmidt <> wrote:
>
> > >Considering that socks and saks are essentially bags, I was wondering
> > >if IE words for socks (such as Greek sukkhos/sukchas, L. soccus, OHG.
> > >soch, soc, MLG. socke, MDu. socke, soc) could be as related as they
> > >appear to be to IE words for sacks (Gk sakkos, L. saccus, OE sakkiz,
> > >etc). Of course, if this were the case, these words for socks would
> > >also be related to Phoenician sakkos, Hebrew Hebrew saq, Akkadian
> > >saqqu and, perhaps even Sumerian sag 'head', since heads are, like
> > >socks and sacks, essentially containers.
>
> > >Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated Thanks in advance.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I have read somewhere that the invention of bags must have been a
> great technological step forward for homo sapiens (the "gathering"
> part of hunting-gathering). I would suspect bags/sacks were named
> very early in the development of language and perhaps this goes back
> to nostratic.
Which is it, "very early in the development of language," or
"Nostratic"?
Unknown
>On Jul 2, 8:38�am, Bill Schmidt <> wrote:
>> >Considering that socks and saks are essentially bags, I was wondering
>> >if IE words for socks (such as Greek sukkhos/sukchas, �L. soccus, OHG.
>> >soch, soc, MLG. socke, MDu. socke, soc) could be as related as they
>> >appear to be to IE words for sacks (Gk sakkos, L. saccus, �OE sakkiz,
>> >etc). Of course, if this were the case, these words for socks would
>> >also be related to Phoenician sakkos, Hebrew Hebrew saq, Akkadian
>> >saqqu and, perhaps even Sumerian sag 'head', since heads are, like
>> >socks and sacks, essentially �containers.
>>
>> >Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated Thanks in advance.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I have read somewhere that the invention of bags must have been a
>great technological step forward for homo sapiens (the "gathering"
>part of hunting-gathering). I would suspect bags/sacks were named
>very early in the development of language and perhaps this goes back
>to nostratic. While Tamil has sAkku, there is no such word in
>Sanskrit.
>
In either case, the concept of using a sack to hold things apparently
resulted in the recognition that doing so caused water to seep out,
thereby drying the things. Hence, L. saccus > 1) saccare to strain
through a bag, and probably 2) siccare, to dry up?
To sack apparently also came into Eng. referring to putting something
in a sack to be drowned, which can explain why sag means to sink or
subside gradually?
Franz Gnaedinger
Analyst kindly mentioned my work, so I might give you
my answer that relies on my reconstruction of the Ice Age
language whose fully developed form I call Magdalenian.
Magdalenian KOD means hut (German Kate 'hut', English
cottage and hut, also hat as cover of the head, and head
as casing of the mind), comparative KOS means vault,
heavenly vault, or another voluminous container (cosmos,
Latin costa 'rib' as part of the rib cage that houses the
lungs and breath, consider also Latin castellum and
English castle in comparison to a humble hut), inverse
DOK means pole, rafter, beam (ancient Greek dokos),
while comparative SOK means strong (ancient Greek
sokos). A strong young man of the Ice Age hunted,
and protected the camp. A strong young man of the
Bronze Age became a soldier. Robust footwear marks
a troop. Aspiring marines join a boot camp where they
are drilled and selected for both physical and mental
strength. My claim: the Bronze Age word for military
footwear of the Early Bronze Age was in between SOK
and sock. This hypothetical word is lost, but a possible
derivative survived, namely a soc-word naming the light
footwear of Greek and Roman actors in satyrical plays.
This word could have been a mocking reference to the
heavy footwear of a soldier, saying much as: you are
an actor, no real man. Our Swiss word Halbschue
'half shoe' names civilian footwear but is also used
as invective: Du bisch en Halbschue, you are a dimwit.
An actor is not a real man, like for example a soldier,
but then an actor may be seen as a soldier of the word
instead of the sword, and a satyrical play can be as sharp
as any blade ... Magdalenian SOK became Proto-Indo-
European *sokw-h2-oi 'follower, companion (in warfare)'
and *segh- 'hold fast, conquer (as expression of striking
in a military context)', sack as English verb, to sack a town,
Sacco di Roma, and the loot is carried away in a sack or
bag. German sackstrak means strong as sackcloth ...
Yes, I believe that sock and sack have the same origin:
in Magdalenian SOK meaning strong. European and
Latin American football is called soccer, played by strong
young men in a peaceful variant of warfare, and when
they win a game in a top league they metaphorically
carry away a sack or bag of money ...
Analyst, you might be interestd in my new approach
to the Indus seals that may honor families for outstanding
contributions to the public well-being (I will publish two
messages in my Magdalenian thread within the next hour).
anal...@hotmail.com
An inspired, panoptic analysis. Excellent. The other senses the
original poster suggested seem to be unrelated (dry up, filter/strain,
sag). Latin siccus(Sanskrit shush)-dry- seems to be a regular "PIE"
word. Sag in the sense of droop seems to be Germanic only.
> Analyst, you might be interestd in my new approach
> to the Indus seals that may honor families for outstanding
> contributions to the public well-being (I will publish two
> messages in my Magdalenian thread within the next hour).
I saw them - very interesting. I hope the Indian team that is
mounting a new decipherment effort as we speak sees this.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> > Considering that socks and saks are essentially bags, I was wondering
> > if IE words for socks (such as Greek sukkhos/sukchas, L. soccus, OHG.
> > soch, soc, MLG. socke, MDu. socke, soc) could be as related as they
> > appear to be to IE words for sacks (Gk sakkos, L. saccus, OE sakkiz,
> > etc). Of course, if this were the case, these words for socks would
> > also be related to Phoenician sakkos, Hebrew Hebrew saq, Akkadian
> > saqqu and, perhaps even Sumerian sag 'head', since heads are, like
> > socks and sacks, essentially containers.
>
> > Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated Thanks in advance.
>
> Analyst kindly mentioned my work, so I might give you
> my answer that relies on my reconstruction of the Ice Age
> language whose fully developed form I call Magdalenian.
Just in case Bill Schmidt is looking for serious linguistic answers to
his unanswerable question, he should be aware that Franz does not
engage in "reconstruction" as that term is understood in linguistics.
Rather, he has invented a fantasy world in which everyone speaks the
same fantasy language consisting entirely of monosyllables which, in
his fantasy, take on opposite meanings when the sequence of phonemes
in them is reversed (and during the course of his excursuses, he uses
other linguistic terminology as well in ways it has never been used
before).
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I saw them - very interesting. I hope the Indian team that is
> mounting a new decipherment effort as we speak sees this.
Thanks for the kind comment. Meanwhile I identified
the seals honoring fish smokers from Harappa,
H859 till H870, the signs for hunting, speared fish,
drying fish and other goods in air and sun, the sign
of firewood, and of firewood in an oven, and the
special oven used for smoking fish (message from
today in my Magdalenian thread), also the signs
that honor architects (arrangers of bricks) and
astronomers (counters of days), and some further
signs. There is more to come, my approach seems
to work, and I can't but marvel at the clever
organization of the Harappa civilization. Basically:
families payed taxes by working ninety days
for the public well-being, most often in the season
of the buffalo, in the busy period of time between
the fall equinox and midwinter, and mostly in the
fields and in the manufacture of bricks, but also
in other professions, for example nourishing all
the workers, for example by providing smoked
fish (H-859 till H-870), and when they did an
excellent job they were honored with a seal
that meant certain privileges, for example fish
smokers could add a seal impression to a bag
of smoked fish and sell them at a better price
throughout the year ...
As I said, I can only marvel at the clever
organization of the Indus Valley civilization,
the largest of the ancient civilizations, and
they also mastered the problem of the several
different languages that must have been spoken
in that large region by using ideograms everybody
understood, whether speaking Proto-Dravidian
or Elamite or Indo-European or Sumerian or
African or Chinese ...
Please don't dismiss a priori what Stephen Farmer
says, namely that the signs on the seals are no
fonts but pictures and ideograms. I came to the
same conclusion, and can tell you that the visual
language is telling much more than could a couple
of short names and titles. There is no way of
compressing the rich variety of ideograms into
a short set of fonts. The ideograms a r e language,
but visual language, ideograms, that can easily
be rendered in actual language, whatever language
someone living in the Punjab spoke.
Panu
We could also add that Franz's idea of reversing the meaning by
reversing the phoneme sequence isn't particularly original - on the
Internet, there are several lunatic pseudo-linguists who cling to this
meme. Even the three-letter ur-words aren't Franz's own idea.
Panu
Curious. I thought Analyst didn't even believe in the PIE, Now it
seems to believe in Nostratic, too. Continuity error.
Peter T. Daniels
Of course -- they go back to Stalin's pet linguist, N. Ya. Marr (who
had done respectable fieldwork in Caucasian languages before he was
overcome by SAL BER ROSH YON).
anal...@hotmail.com
Darn,darn, triple darn it - what an astounding idea - you are going to
steal my thunder before I ever get around to publishing my ideas.
But of course - "The land of the seven rivers" was multi-lingual when
the seals were made - and the seals weren't writing in the sense we
understand it now.
And this explains why the people who composed the Veda "forgot"
writing - although they must have seen the Indus Valley symbols-
something caused Sanskrit to become ascendant in North/Northwest India
after the IVC declined and there was no need for these multi-lingual
ideograms.
Panu
Now, this is interesting. I knew that Marr was an eminent
Caucasologist (or whatever the word is) before he went crank, but I
didn't know that he went *that* crank.
Peter T. Daniels
> And this explains why the people who composed the Veda "forgot"
> writing - although they must have seen the Indus Valley symbols-
How is that possible, since the IVC had vanished many centuries before
the Indic-speakers arrived in the area?
Peter T. Daniels
It's _all_ Marr was known for in the US.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Just in case Bill Schmidt is looking for serious linguistic answers to
> his unanswerable question, he should be aware that Franz does not
> engage in "reconstruction" as that term is understood in linguistics.
> Rather, he has invented a fantasy world in which everyone speaks the
> same fantasy language consisting entirely of monosyllables which, in
> his fantasy, take on opposite meanings when the sequence of phonemes
> in them is reversed (and during the course of his excursuses, he uses
> other linguistic terminology as well in ways it has never been used
> before).
I wanted to ignore that caricature of my work, but as my
longtime killrater and online stalker Panu Petteri Höglund
phoglund alias craoibhin66 alias he himself as his own
good friend and pupil Sean Connor soconn1 alias he
himself as his own brother in arms and stalking aide
John Hobart Kyle jhobartkyle johnk rewared that junk
review with five Google stars I point out one of the blunders.
Inverse forms have related meanings, not necessarily
contrary meanings. I gave the example of KOD meaning
hut and inverse DOK meaning pole, beam, rafter. Hut and
pole are no contraries while being related, since you need
a pole for a tent, several poles for a hut, and poles and
beams and rafters for building a house.
First law of Magdalenian from the spring of 2005
Inverse forms are related
Second law of Magdalenian form the later spring of 2005
Permutations yield words around the same meme
(enters Panu, multiplying himself ever since, taking
revenge on me for his barren mind)
Third law of Magdalenian from the spring of 2006
S-words are comparative forms of D-words
(comparative form as in good better)
Fourth law of Magdalenian form the spring of 2006
Important words can have lateral associations
I mined what I call the verbal morphospace, mainly
concentrating myself on ancient Greek for the small
vocabulary, using my four laws, all the time being
attacked and my messages killrated by Psychopanu
who has nothing to say and so must find someone
he can beat and trash in order to feel himself and
be someone.
Franz Gnaedinger
Panu of the many aliasses doesn't like Peter T. Daniels
but admires him for his power games, and now Peter
is grateful for having Panu by his side and goes on
with his blunders. How many times did I mention Richard
Fester, Prof. Dr. Richard Fester if you please, and his
approach to early language? his proposal of some twenty
ur-words of most often three letters? and his proposal
of inverse forms and permutations? how many times did
I say that I follow Fester's approach? Was anybody ever
interested in Fester? No, he provoked the usual quips,
nothing more. But now to insinuate that I falsely claim
originality and to say that I follow Marr of whom I only
learned via Dushan beats it all. How deep will Peter and
his new adlatus sink?
Franz Gnaedinger
> steal my thunder before I ever get around to publishing my ideas.
>
> But of course - "The land of the seven rivers" was multi-lingual when
> the seals were made - and the seals weren't writing in the sense we
> understand it now.
>
> And this explains why the people who composed the Veda "forgot"
> writing - although they must have seen the Indus Valley symbols-
> something caused Sanskrit to become ascendant in North/Northwest India
> after the IVC declined and there was no need for these multi-lingual
> ideograms.
Don't worry, there remains a lot to do. The Indus ideograms
are visual language. A very modern idea. Consider the pictograms
of our time. Everybody easily recognizes the shape of a plane.
It is much simpler to show the sign of a plane than to write
airplane aeroplano avion Flugzeug etc. etc. in all the languages.
I live near the central train station of Zurich, it is full of
pictograms,
and most of them are quite easily understandable, for example
ticket, or change of money. But there are also many that we can't
understand and have to guess or ask someone. A rather famous
publication of a local graphic artist compiles thousands and thousands
of pictograms of our daily life. Many are understandable, others not
at all, but those that can be understood are understood by everybody,
no matter what language he or she is speaking. The dwellers of the
Indus Valley achieved a modern visual language that was understood
by everybody living in the same cultural area. A big feat. Consider
the trouble posed by the Internet: one has to invent a lot of new
ideograms in order to guide users. This was about the scale of
the problem inventive minds in the Indus Valley faced and solved
for their time and area.
Today I will post my message on seals honoring architects
(arrangers of bricks) and astronomers (counters of days) in
my Magdalenian thread. Tomorrow follow to more messages:
three buildings depicted on a copper tablet, a store house,
a palace, and a family house, with a hint of perspective,
and then an alternative lunar calendar that explains the name
the Sumerians gave to Harappa: the seven high places
(also mentioned in the Bible).
Panu
I see.
Panu
Franz, you have been told several times that:
- my only aliasses are phoglund, craoibhin, and Anniina Kaartinen (and
when I noted that your barren mind wasn't interested in Anniina, only
rehearsed the same words verbatim that you had been repeating about me
for long, I gave up the hoax, seeing that it would be no fun)
- Seán O'Connor is a real person, who has written several Irish-
language detective novels
- J. Hobart Kyle is not known to me personally
doesn't like Peter T. Daniels
> but admires him for his power games,
I don't particularly like Peter T. Daniels, but I think he is apt and
professional at what he does. You, on the other hand, aren't
professional at anything. Heaven knows what you do for a living. I
guess you are the heir of some rich bastard, and don't know what to do
with your life.
and now Peter
> is grateful for having Panu by his side and goes on
> with his blunders. How many times did I mention Richard
> Fester, Prof. Dr. Richard Fester if you please, and his
> approach to early language? his proposal of some twenty
> ur-words of most often three letters? and his proposal
> of inverse forms and permutations? how many times did
> I say that I follow Fester's approach? Was anybody ever
> interested in Fester? No, he provoked the usual quips,
> nothing more. But now to insinuate that I falsely claim
> originality and to say that I follow Marr of whom I only
> learned via Dushan beats it all. How deep will Peter and
> his new adlatus sink?
No person can ever sink as low as you. Rest assured.
Panu
the only Wikipedia that does bother to mention this Fester at all, is
the German one:
"In seinem bekanntesten Buch „Sprache der Eiszeit“ (erschienen 1962)
stellte Fester die These auf, dass alle Sprachen der Welt einen
einmaligen gemeinsamen Ursprung besitzen, dessen Urwortschatz er
glaubt rekonstruieren zu können. Die von ihm dabei angewendete und von
ihm mitentwickelte Methodik der Paläolinguistik ist aus Sicht der
etablierten Sprachwissenschaften jedoch nicht als eine seriöse
Arbeitsweise anerkannt, weswegen auch seine Ergebnisse durch
Linguisten durchweg als Pseudowissenschaft abgelehnt wurden. Fester
war in Sachen Archäologie und Sprachwissenschaft ein reiner
Privatgelehrter, der nie Linguistik studiert hatte und daher mit den
dort gebräuchlichen Methoden und Begriffen offensichtlich auch nicht
vertraut war."
"Er schließt dabei methodisch an die japhetitologische
Vierelementenanalyse des sowjetischen Linguisten Nikolai Jakowlewitsch
Marr an, der als aus den bei der menschlichen Arbeit ausgestoßenen
Urlauten die vier Ursilben sal, ber, yon und rosch ansetzt."
I think this sums it up neatly: Fester was a poor devil who actually
imitated Marr, and Franz is a poorer devil who imitates Fester.
PaulJK
> I know that you should not quote Wikipedia in Peter's presence, but
> the only Wikipedia that does bother to mention this Fester at all, is
> the German one:
>
> stellte Fester die These auf, dass alle Sprachen der Welt einen
> einmaligen gemeinsamen Ursprung besitzen, dessen Urwortschatz er
> ihm mitentwickelte Methodik der Pal�olinguistik ist aus Sicht der
> etablierten Sprachwissenschaften jedoch nicht als eine seri�se
> Arbeitsweise anerkannt, weswegen auch seine Ergebnisse durch
> Linguisten durchweg als Pseudowissenschaft abgelehnt wurden. Fester
> Privatgelehrter, der nie Linguistik studiert hatte und daher mit den
> vertraut war."
>
> "Er schlie�t dabei methodisch an die japhetitologische
> Vierelementenanalyse des sowjetischen Linguisten Nikolai Jakowlewitsch
> Urlauten die vier Ursilben sal, ber, yon und rosch ansetzt."
>
> I think this sums it up neatly: Fester was a poor devil who actually
> imitated Marr, and Franz is a poorer devil who imitates Fester.
Festering imitations?
Peter T. Daniels
> I know that you should not quote Wikipedia in Peter's presence, but
> the only Wikipedia that does bother to mention this Fester at all, is
> the German one:
>
> "In seinem bekanntesten Buch „Sprache der Eiszeit“ (erschienen 1962)
> stellte Fester die These auf, dass alle Sprachen der Welt einen
> einmaligen gemeinsamen Ursprung besitzen,
That's fairly uncontroversial (the alternative being that there were
several Ursprachen, but the descendants of only one of them survived
throughout humanity, since the human biological adaptation for
language doesn't vary across the species)
> dessen Urwortschatz er
> glaubt rekonstruieren zu können.
This, however, is manifestly impossible.
> Die von ihm dabei angewendete und von
> ihm mitentwickelte Methodik der Paläolinguistik ist aus Sicht der
> etablierten Sprachwissenschaften jedoch nicht als eine seriöse
> Arbeitsweise anerkannt, weswegen auch seine Ergebnisse durch
> Linguisten durchweg als Pseudowissenschaft abgelehnt wurden. Fester
> war in Sachen Archäologie und Sprachwissenschaft ein reiner
> Privatgelehrter, der nie Linguistik studiert hatte und daher mit den
> dort gebräuchlichen Methoden und Begriffen offensichtlich auch nicht
> vertraut war."
>
> "Er schließt dabei methodisch an die japhetitologische
> Vierelementenanalyse des sowjetischen Linguisten Nikolai Jakowlewitsch
> Marr an, der als aus den bei der menschlichen Arbeit ausgestoßenen
> Urlauten die vier Ursilben sal, ber, yon und rosch ansetzt."
oops
> I think this sums it up neatly: Fester was a poor devil who actually
> imitated Marr, and Franz is a poorer devil who imitates Fester.
I wonder whether Charles Addams could have known of him when he named
Uncle Fester.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels is proud of the reviews he published
in this or that journal. Where have his reviewing skills
gone? For years I explained every aspect of my
Magdalenian approach personally to him, and now he
gives such a distorting summary. Either he is loosing
his faculties, or his reviews were generally more or
less trashy, meanwhile more more and less less.
Giving him the benefit of doubt I opt for fading faculties,
considering his new affiliation with Panu Petteri Höglund
alias alias alias, mean spirit of sci.lang personified,
a barren mind fueld by a burning ambition.
As for Richard Fester, he got plenty of support also from
professors of linguistics. I have only one book by him,
I didn't study all of his work, I just found inspiration in
that book, the hypothesis of the shifting pole is nonsense,
and there is a lot of other nonsense in the book, but some
of his words are fascinating, for example KALL for fountain
and inverse LAK for lacus lake loch. I was inspired by
that single book, but I go far beyond Fester and I don't
care about the nonsense he wrote, being more than
grateful for the good ideas. Very recently it has been
confirmed that the Toba volcano on Sumatra caused
the heaviest eruption 72,000 years ago and eliminated
almost all human beings, only a couple of thousands
survived, and this bottleneck of evolution most probably
also affected the languages, it may well be that one
group of the early languages survived while the others
were lost. And as for new ideas in paleo-linguistics:
when a Czech linguist found English bread in a Hittite
inscription, together with a variant of German eat
and English water, he needed a lot of nerves till he
finally got accepted, he had to "stay by his guns" for
twenty years. A lot of Peters and Panus made fun of
him.
Panu
>
> distorting ... loosing
> his faculties ... trashy ... fading faculties,
> mean spirit ... a barren mind
Personal attacks show that you have nothing matter-of-fact to say.
Peter T. Daniels
> were lost. And as for new ideas in paleo-linguistics:
> when a Czech linguist found English bread in a Hittite
> inscription, together with a variant of German eat
> and English water, he needed a lot of nerves till he
> finally got accepted, he had to "stay by his guns" for
> twenty years. A lot of Peters and Panus made fun of
> him.-
So much for "facts."
Hrozny did not find "English bread in a Hittite inscription." He found
the Sumerogram NINDA, 'bread', in parallel with <wa-a-tar>, which
encouraged him to look for features that might be interpreted as IE.
His study was published in 1915, in the Mitteilungen der Deutschen
Orientgesellschaft, so there's a slight probability, is there not,
that wide dissemination of his findings was delayed until after
11/11/18. I am not aware of any dissent.
Perhaps you are conflating the decipherment with the very young Jerzy
Kurylowicz's discovery of the reflexes of laryngeals in Hittite,
published in 1927 in a Festschrift. It was the laryngeal theory that
took a long time to be accepted, and the benchmark publication came in
1959, *Evidence for Laryngeals*, a 1957 conference of _young_ IEists
(including many who are now the most respected elders in the field,
including Watkins, Hamp, Polome, Lehmann, etc. -- the eldest of them
was Hoenigswald), so this might be seen as a true Kuhnian "paradigm
shift."
Panu
>
> Perhaps you are conflating the decipherment with the very young Jerzy
> Kurylowicz's discovery of the reflexes of laryngeals in Hittite,
And, of course, Jerzy Kurylowicz is a Polish name, not a Czech one.
But Franz, that mountain savage from the wilderness of the Rätikon
Range, can't tell Czech from Polish.
Peter T. Daniels
Bedrich Hrozny, who deciphered Hittite, was Czech.
Some decades later he publshed some _very_ kooky speculations on the
Byblos "syllabary," Linear B, etc.
Franz Gnaedinger
I meant Hrozny and refered to a paragraph in
Gregory Louis Possehl, The writing system,
Philadelphia, University press of Pensylvania
Press, c 1996. I have the book at home and
will quote the paragraph tomorrow.
Panu
> On Jul 7, 4:09 pm, Panu <craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 5:45 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps you are conflating the decipherment with the very young Jerzy
> > > Kurylowicz's discovery of the reflexes of laryngeals in Hittite,
>
> > And, of course, Jerzy Kurylowicz is a Polish name, not a Czech one.
> > But Franz, that mountain savage from the wilderness of the Rätikon
> > Range, can't tell Czech from Polish.
>
> Bedrich Hrozny, who deciphered Hittite, was Czech.
That is obvious enough, though in Hrozny, the y needs an acute accent,
and the r in Bedrich needs a hacek.
>
> Some decades later he publshed some _very_ kooky speculations on the
> Byblos "syllabary," Linear B, etc.
I see. Was it on the same level of kookiness as Franz?
PaulJK
> On Jul 7, 11:53 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 4:09 pm, Panu <craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 7, 5:45 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Perhaps you are conflating the decipherment with the very young Jerzy
>>>> Kurylowicz's discovery of the reflexes of laryngeals in Hittite,
>>
>>> And, of course, Jerzy Kurylowicz is a Polish name, not a Czech one.
>>> But Franz, that mountain savage from the wilderness of the Rätikon
>>> Range, can't tell Czech from Polish.
>>
>> Bedrich Hrozny, who deciphered Hittite, was Czech.
>
> That is obvious enough, though in Hrozny, the y needs an acute accent,
> and the r in Bedrich needs a hacek.
You really scare me, Panu, you really do. :-)
Have you also noticed that the name Hrozný means Terrible
(masc. adjective)? :-)
>> Some decades later he publshed some _very_ kooky speculations on the
>> Byblos "syllabary," Linear B, etc.
>
> I see. Was it on the same level of kookiness as Franz?
BH's kookiness in his old age is usually ascribed to just that, old age.
pjk
Panu
> Panu wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 11:53 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Jul 7, 4:09 pm, Panu <craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 7, 5:45 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> Perhaps you are conflating the decipherment with the very young Jerzy
> >>>> Kurylowicz's discovery of the reflexes of laryngeals in Hittite,
>
> >>> And, of course, Jerzy Kurylowicz is a Polish name, not a Czech one.
> >>> But Franz, that mountain savage from the wilderness of the Rätikon
> >>> Range, can't tell Czech from Polish.
>
> >> Bedrich Hrozny, who deciphered Hittite, was Czech.
>
> > That is obvious enough, though in Hrozny, the y needs an acute accent,
> > and the r in Bedrich needs a hacek.
>
> You really scare me, Panu, you really do. :-)
Don't get scared. One of my most treasured books is the collection of
Brno fairytales my late mother brought to me from said city back in
the nineties. I did read many of those tales back then, the book is
still littered with notes in the margins. Czech is a foreign language.
People learn foreign languages.
>
> Have you also noticed that the name Hrozný means Terrible
> (masc. adjective)? :-)
Well, yes, I could guess it was something like that.
> >> Some decades later he publshed some _very_ kooky speculations on the
> >> Byblos "syllabary," Linear B, etc.
>
> > I see. Was it on the same level of kookiness as Franz?
>
> BH's kookiness in his old age is usually ascribed to just that, old age.
> pjk
Alzheimer's is a terrible disease.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I meant Hrozny and refered to a paragraph in
> Gregory Louis Possehl, The writing system,
> Philadelphia, University press of Pensylvania
> Press, c 1996. I have the book at home and
> will quote the paragraph tomorrow.
Gregory L. Possehl, INDUS AGE, The Writing
System, 1996, chapter DBEDRICH HROZNY,
1939: A Great Decipherer takes on the Indus
Script; a few quotes:
"Bedrich Hrozny was a Czech, graced with great
intelligence, strong intuition, and a bold, forceful
personality: the perfect ma
Franz Gnaedinger
> I meant Hrozny and refered to a paragraph in
> Gregory Louis Possehl, The writing system,
> Philadelphia, University press of Pensylvania
> Press, c 1996. I have the book at home and
> will quote the paragraph tomorrow.
Gregory L. Possehl, INDUS AGE, The Writing
System, 1996, chapter BEDRICH HROZNY,
1939: A Great Decipherer takes on the Indus
Script, a few quotes:
"Bedrich Hrozny was a Czech, graced with
great intelligence, strong intuition, and a bold,
forceful personality: the perfect man to attempt
the decipherement of unknown scripts. (very
long omission) Hrozny immediately saw that
Knudtzon had been correct, Hittite was an
Indo-European language. His forceful presentation
of this insight is a landmark in the history of
decipherment. / According to Gurney (1952 : 9)
Hrozny was not an Indo-European philologist
and "freely" assigned meaning to various signs
on the basis of sound and his claims were rejected
by many colleagues. But unlike Knudtzon he stuck
to his guns and today he is seen as the scholar
who "cracked" Hittite, although there was much left
to be done even after he published his work."
Apparently the Peter Panus of the time succeeded
in silencing one Knudtzon but failed in knocking down
Hrozny who "stuck to his guns." Moral of the story:
metaphorical guns are needed when you are confronted
with the ghastly item of a Peter Panu.
A quote from the long omitted passage: "It was
A.H. Sayce who ventured to piece together the
archaeology and epigraphic data and he was the
first to create an awarness of the Hittite Empire
in material terms. Sayce was roundly criticized
for his speculation."
"Roundly critizized" by the Peter Panus of his time.
The understanding of science as a linear accretion
of knowledge is typical for barren minds who never
have an idea in their life, let alone a fruitful one.
I don't care about the later nonsense Hrozny wrote
on the Indus script, Byblos glyptics, and Linear B.
All possibilities must be explored, and the false
ways by and by eliminated, so that eventually
someone will find the good way that leads further.
Hrozny "cracked" Hittite and helped diminish the
haystacks of other problems, thus helping to find
the needles ...
Peter T. Daniels
He began with the data, however. That sets him apart from Panu's
comparandum.
Franz Gnaedinger
Sorry for the first lines of my reply that were
sent off involontarily. As for the account of
writing systems I prefer Possehl 1996 and
Parpola 1994 to Daniels and Bright 1996,
Possehl for not artificially smoothing out the
history of decipherments, and Parpola for
also considering visual language that goes back
by 20,000 years or more, he says. And for
showing that not every Finn is a barren mind
such as my obsessed killrater Panu Petteri
Höglund who harms himself by perpetually
attacking me.
Peter T. Daniels
If you had bothered to look at the original sources (or even at Gurney
1952, the intermediate source that I haven't needed to look at, but at
least it's by a Hittitologist), you would have learned that Knudtzon's
guess was based on the total of two tablets in an unknown language
found in the Amarna archive. There was no usable corpus of Hittite
texts until the Boghazkoy archive was excavated shortly before the
outbreak of WWI. (Knudtzon was the first editor of the Amarna tablets
and his edition is still the standard one; his contributions in many
other areas have stood the test of time as well, so you certainly
can't add him to your pseudo-pantheon of misunderstood geniuses.)
But why you rely on the description by an Indologist for the
decipherment of Hittite is beyond me.
> A quote from the long omitted passage: "It was
> A.H. Sayce who ventured to piece together the
> archaeology and epigraphic data and he was the
> first to create an awarness of the Hittite Empire
> in material terms. Sayce was roundly criticized
> for his speculation."
>
> "Roundly critizized" by the Peter Panus of his time.
And if you had bothered to look at the sources, you would have learned
that Sayce was _not_ referring to Hittite cuneiform, but to the
pictographic script known to him only from a couple of "bosses" that
had turned up here and there. _Inscriptions_ in what were at first
called "Hittite hieroglyphs" were discovered only later (and were
deciphered, by my teacher I. J. Gelb among others, only in the late
1920s) and soon recognized (by Gelb) not to be in "Hittite" at all,
but rather in Luvian. Sayce was, however, responsible for the mis-
naming of the Nesians after the "Hittites" of the Bible [the biblical
name relates to the Hatti, who spoke a non-IE language and preceded
the "Hittites" in Anatolia], and his mistake stuck (like the misnomer
"Tocharian" for the folks who spoke Agnean and Kuchean and were not
the folks named by Greek historians "Tocharioi").
Panu
> my obsessed killrater Panu Petteri
> Höglund who harms himself by perpetually
> attacking me.
Are you threatening me, sunshine?
Peter T. Daniels
Neither Possehl's nor Parpola's is a general book on writing systems;
both are books on Indus Valley writing. The discussion of Indus Valley
writing in The World's Writing Systems is by Parpola, which strongly
suggests that Franz has never actually looked at The World's Writing
Systems.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> If you had bothered to look at the original sources (or even at Gurney
> 1952, the intermediate source that I haven't needed to look at, but at
> least it's by a Hittitologist), you would have learned that Knudtzon's
> guess was based on the total of two tablets in an unknown language
> found in the Amarna archive. There was no usable corpus of Hittite
> texts until the Boghazkoy archive was excavated shortly before the
> outbreak of WWI. (Knudtzon was the first editor of the Amarna tablets
> and his edition is still the standard one; his contributions in many
> other areas have stood the test of time as well, so you certainly
> can't add him to your pseudo-pantheon of misunderstood geniuses.)
>
> that Sayce was _not_ referring to Hittite cuneiform, but to the
> pictographic script known to him only from a couple of "bosses" that
> had turned up here and there. _Inscriptions_ in what were at first
> called "Hittite hieroglyphs" were discovered only later (and were
> deciphered, by my teacher I. J. Gelb among others, only in the late
> 1920s) and soon recognized (by Gelb) not to be in "Hittite" at all,
> but rather in Luvian. Sayce was, however, responsible for the mis-
> naming of the Nesians after the "Hittites" of the Bible [the biblical
> name relates to the Hatti, who spoke a non-IE language and preceded
> the "Hittites" in Anatolia], and his mistake stuck (like the misnomer
> "Tocharian" for the folks who spoke Agnean and Kuchean and were not
> the folks named by Greek historians "Tocharioi").
Cyrus H. Gordon 1968: "The Norwegian Assyriologist
J.A. Knudtzon came out in 1902 with a publication on
the Arzawa letters in which he correctly concluded that
the language was Indo-European. He noted, for example,
that e-es-to, which from the context has to be 'may it be,'
is the Indo-European _esto_ 'may it be.' This important
discovery was right, and if Knudtzon had had the courage
of his convictions, he would have been the discoverer
of Hittite."
Alas, he let himself deter by the Peter Panus of his time.
Possehl 1996 again: "A.H. Sayce ... was the first to create
an awareness of the Hittite Empire in material terms.
Sayce was roundly criticized for his speculation."
"Roundly criticized for his speculation" by the Peter Petteris
of his time.
The one who "stuck to his guns" and didn't fear the Peter
Höglunds of his time was Hrozny who confirmed the
"important discovery" mady by Knudtzon, only the greater
as gleaned from such a small corpus.
Now I have better things to do than wasting my time.
The beautiful baker seals M-1103 and bis and ter prove
that the Indus seals convey a visual language. The
ideograms appear in the symmetrical order of a picture,
not in the linear order of writing.
PaulJK
So where does it say Hrozný needed to stick to his
guns for as long as *twenty years* to be *accepted*?
You said:
...till he finally got accepted, he had to "stay by his guns"
for twenty years...
I don't think he had too many problems with being generally
accepted by his peers. There was some resistance from
some linguists to his theories as there always is when
somebody proposes something new.
pjk
Panu
> Now I have better things to do than wasting my time.
Does this mean that you leave us, eventually?
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> So where does it say Hrozný needed to stick to his
> guns for as long as *twenty years* to be *accepted*?
That was a mistake of mine, _Champollion's_
decipherment was fought until twenty years
after he passed away, for fear the Egyptian
papyri might reveal a knowledge that predates
the Greek one. As it did. And it needed the bold
and forceful personality of Bedrich Hrozny to
stick to his guns. Knudzton gave up, obviously
intimidated by the harassholes of his time,
the Panu Petteri Höglunds who always hang
around, who have nothing to say, no ideas,
but are yelping and yapping at the ones who
got ideas and have something or even a lot
to say.
Peter T. Daniels
Have you bothered to look at the Arzawa letters to find out exactly
how much "guns" there was tos stick to?
I can't know what "Gordon 1968" may be, but you're probably not aware
that Cyrus felt mightily aggrieved because his own unfortunate
attempts at deciphering Linear A, "Eteocretan," and "Minoan" had found
no acceptance at all.
> Possehl 1996 again: "A.H. Sayce ... was the first to create
> an awareness of the Hittite Empire in material terms.
> Sayce was roundly criticized for his speculation."
>
> "Roundly criticized for his speculation" by the Peter Petteris
> of his time.
Possehl has not overnight turned into an authority on the Hittite
Empire. Clearly you have no interest in whather things are given the
right names, so it doesn't bother you that the IE inhabitants of
Anatolia have been mistakenly called "Hittites" ever since Sayce.
> The one who "stuck to his guns" and didn't fear the Peter
> Höglunds of his time was Hrozny who confirmed the
> "important discovery" mady by Knudtzon, only the greater
> as gleaned from such a small corpus.
Hrozny did not need to "stick to his guns." There was now a huge
corpus of Hittite texts and a sizable cadre of scholars immediately
turned to interpreting them as fast as they could be published.
> Now I have better things to do than wasting my time.
> The beautiful baker seals M-1103 and bis and ter prove
> that the Indus seals convey a visual language. The
> ideograms appear in the symmetrical order of a picture,
> not in the linear order of writing.-
Peter T. Daniels
God, you're stupid. When people point out your mistakes about simple
factual matters like whose discoveries were immediately accepted and
whose took twenty years to be accepted, you insist you were right and
drag in utterly irrelevant matters like Champollion (and even then you
make up absurd claims about Champollion). You had heard about
Kurylowixz and you conflated him with Hrozny, who was new to you.
That's how your confusion arose. Period.
Panu
>
> but are yelping and yapping at the ones who
> got ideas and have something or even a lot
> to say.
Franz, you have no ideas, and you have nothing to say. You are a badly
educated pain in the behind, who thinks he owns the world, and the
world owes him a hearing.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> God, you're stupid. When people point out your mistakes about simple
> factual matters like whose discoveries were immediately accepted and
> whose took twenty years to be accepted, you insist you were right and
> drag in utterly irrelevant matters like Champollion (and even then you
> make up absurd claims about Champollion). You had heard about
> Kurylowixz and you conflated him with Hrozny, who was new to you.
> That's how your confusion arose. Period.
What a bore you are. I said the twenty years
are a mistake of mine, I confounded them
with the twenty years I had in mind regarding
Champollion: his decipherment of the Egyptian
hieroglyphs was fought until twenty years
after his death. I absorb a lot of information
I pick up very quickly from all sides, and I am
neccessarily prone to mistakes of the memory,
but I can always correct them, and go back to
the source I remember. Since you summarized
my work in such a lousy way, and me having
explained each and every aspect of my
Magdalenian approach to you personally,
and for years, I lost all my former trust in you.
I trust Possehl and Parola but certainly no
longer you. Although I see where they go wrong,
doesn't matter, I see where they are right,
and that's what counts. The hallmark of a true
scholar is the way he summarizes views of
other people, also and especially the ones
of adversaries: accurate summaries mark
a scholar. Freud excelled in this aspect.
You don't. So I don't care what you tell me.
I prefer Possehl and Parpola and and and.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Jul 9, 1:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > God, you're stupid. When people point out your mistakes about simple
> > factual matters like whose discoveries were immediately accepted and
> > whose took twenty years to be accepted, you insist you were right and
> > drag in utterly irrelevant matters like Champollion (and even then you
> > make up absurd claims about Champollion). You had heard about
> > Kurylowixz and you conflated him with Hrozny, who was new to you.
> > That's how your confusion arose. Period.
>
> What a bore you are. I said the twenty years
> are a mistake of mine, I confounded them
> with the twenty years I had in mind regarding
> Champollion: his decipherment of the Egyptian
> hieroglyphs was fought until twenty years
> after his death.
That is simply not correct.
> I absorb a lot of information
> I pick up very quickly from all sides, and I am
> neccessarily prone to mistakes of the memory,
> but I can always correct them, and go back to
> the source I remember. Since you summarized
> my work in such a lousy way, and me having
> explained each and every aspect of my
> Magdalenian approach to you personally,
Nothing posted to sci.lang is a "personal" explanation.
> and for years, I lost all my former trust in you.
> I trust Possehl and Parola but certainly no
> longer you. Although I see where they go wrong,
> doesn't matter, I see where they are right,
> and that's what counts. The hallmark of a true
> scholar is the way he summarizes views of
> other people, also and especially the ones
> of adversaries: accurate summaries mark
> a scholar. Freud excelled in this aspect.
> You don't. So I don't care what you tell me.
> I prefer Possehl and Parpola and and and.
Yet you have absolutely no way of determining who is right and who is
not, who has direct knowledge of what they speak of and who has not.
Panu
Besides, he does not read those Possehls and Parpolas. He might browse
through a book to see something that he can incorporate into his
fantasies.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I can't know what "Gordon 1968" may be, but you're probably not aware
> that Cyrus felt mightily aggrieved because his own unfortunate
> attempts at deciphering Linear A, "Eteocretan," and "Minoan" had found
> no acceptance at all.
But Gordon was right. Here an account of a 1973 symposium
by Walther Hinz (my translation): "I came to learn Cyrus H.
Gordon on July 25, 1973, in London. There a symposium
was held on the topic of undeciphered scripts. (...) Linear A
was mentioned on the first day. The first speaker was John
Chadwick, the closest co-worker of Michael Ventris. (...)
After him Cyrus H. Gordon entered the arena, the podium,
that is. He passionately advocated the Semitic origin of
the Minoans and their script Linear A. (...) When Gordon
finished, an icy athmosphere of refusal prevailed. (...)
Whithin 25 years only two scholars approved of Gordon's
hypothesis: Jan Best and Robert Stieglitz." But then Walther
Hinz proved Gordon right by translating the Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95. I rendered and explained his translation
several times, for example in my thread "Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95" where I went a step further by saying
that Mi-Nu-The, given as head of a bull for Mi-, a visual
pun of a bull leaper on the feet hands feet for -Nu-, and
a tree of life for -The, written alike in hieroglyphic Minoan,
Linear A, and Linear B, became our Minos and refers
to Ebla or Tell Mardikh in northern Syria, some forty
kilometers south of Aleppo, mentioned as mu-nu-ti-um
in 2200 BC, Ugaritic mnt, Ezechiel 27,17 Minnit (WH).
You, Peter T. Daniels, ignore Walther Hinz's translation
of HT 95, deliberately and proactively, the same for
Derk Ohlenroth's translations of the Tiryns / Elaia disc,
the same for the excavation of the Göbekli Tepe,
in fact everything that goes beyond your book. So
I know well who is right and who is not. I prefer Gordon
to Daniels who has the nerve to speak of Gordon's
unfortunate attempts. Gordon was right about Minoan.
It is a northwest Semitic language akin to Ugaritic,
Eblaite, Phoenician and Canaanitic. And the quote
regarding Knudtzon's "important discovery" of Hittite
being Indo-European is from Gordon's Forgotten
Scripts: The ongoing discovery and decipherment,
Revised and enlarged edition, New York, Basic Books,
1968. (This reply answers your last reply to me wherein
you say I have no means of telling who's right.)
Panu
> On Jul 9, 1:32 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I can't know what "Gordon 1968" may be, but you're probably not aware
> > that Cyrus felt mightily aggrieved because his own unfortunate
> > attempts at deciphering Linear A, "Eteocretan," and "Minoan" had found
> > no acceptance at all.
>
> But Gordon was right.
Because you say so? As Peter said, you are clueless and have no way to
tell who is right, other than praising your darlings and calling their
critics barren minds.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Jul 9, 1:32 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > I can't know what "Gordon 1968" may be, but you're probably not aware
> > that Cyrus felt mightily aggrieved because his own unfortunate
> > attempts at deciphering Linear A, "Eteocretan," and "Minoan" had found
> > no acceptance at all.
>
> But Gordon was right. Here an account of a 1973 symposium
> by Walther Hinz (my translation): "I came to learn Cyrus H.
> Gordon on July 25, 1973, in London. There a symposium
> was held on the topic of undeciphered scripts. (...) Linear A
> was mentioned on the first day. The first speaker was John
> Chadwick, the closest co-worker of Michael Ventris. (...)
> After him Cyrus H. Gordon entered the arena, the podium,
> that is. He passionately advocated the Semitic origin of
> the Minoans and their script Linear A. (...) When Gordon
> finished, an icy athmosphere of refusal prevailed. (...)
> Whithin 25 years only two scholars approved of Gordon's
> hypothesis: Jan Best and Robert Stieglitz." But then Walther
> Hinz proved Gordon right by translating the Linear A tablet
> Hagia Triada 95. I rendered and explained his translation
> several times,
I have not, of course,read anything you've written on that topic. Did
you give the reference where you claim Hinz (a Hittitologist) did such
a thing? Give it now.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> I have not, of course,read anything you've written on that topic. Did
> you give the reference where you claim Hinz (a Hittitologist) did such
> a thing? Give it now.
You have, of course, read what I said on this topic.
We discussed it in a thread five years ago, July 2004,
then I said I will start a new thread dedicated to HT 95
and invited you to join whereupon you said no thanks
you won't follow me to that thread whereupon you
followed me into my thread and said BULLSHIT!!!!!
and other niceties in your way of a grand zampano.
I learned about Hinz's translation of HT 95 from
a publication series from Zurich and faithfully
rendered it in the thread
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95
that you can find if you google for it in sci.archaeology,
or simply going for
linear a tablet hagia triada 95
(without quotation marks). It is a long discussion with
a lot of shouting from certain quarters, and I was developing
my ideas step by step (one step of mine still being a flight
for some people around here) and so I will render Linear A
tablet Hagia Triada 95 in the translation according to Walther
Hinz again tomorrow, here in this thread, in a short and concise
form. The great scholar Cyrus H. Gordon deciphered not only
Ugaritic, he also paved the way for Minoan, correctly recognizing
it as a northwest Semitic language and script, preparing the
ground for Walther Hinz, expert on Eblaite, decipherer of the
Sinai inscriptions (if memory serves), and finally of HT 95,
but not a Hittitologist - where did you get that from?
Peter T. Daniels
My God, you're ignorant!
Cyrus Gordon did not decipher Ugaritic.
Nor did he ever claim to decipher Ugaritic.
Ugaritic was deciphered simultaneously and independently by three
scholars, Hans Bauer, Edouard Dhorme, and Charles Virolleaud.
What do you mean by "the Sinai inscriptions"? Sorry, Hinz was an
Elamitologist, not a Hittitologist -- those peripheral languages kind
of blend together.
Elamitology is no more relevant to the topics you mention than
Hittitology. (And Elamite and Eblaite are utterly unrelated.)
You'd have saved yourself a lot of typing, and yet another
embarrassment, if you'd simply provided the Hinz reference.
Franz Gnaedinger
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95, translation according
to Walther Hinz in the wake of Cyrus H. Gordon and
Jan Best, published in Museion 2000, Zurich, 6/1991,
compiled by me (FG):
da-du-ma-ta . (ear of grain)
da-me -- mi-nu-te
sa-ru == ku-ni-su
-- di-De/sha-ru -- qe
la-u //// ///
Dadumata or rather Dadumatha, the one loved
(da-du, Ugaritic dd) by the master (ma-ta or rather
matha, Baal, Haddu/Adu, Hadad) - the goddess
Dadumatha (Ugaritic d-d-m-sh, Hebrew d-d-y-m-sh
on a seal from Tell Djemmeh found by Yigael Yadin
in 1960) or rather her priestesses obtains/obtain
the following amounts of cereals (indicated by the
dot and the ear of grain): 10 measures of millet
(da-me, dachnme, Hebrew dachan, Ezekiel 4:9,
Arabic duchn), 10 measures (of wheat) from Ebla
(mi-nu-te, mi-nu-the, mi-nu-ti-um in 2200 BC,
Ugaritic mnt, Hebrew Minnit or Minnith, Ezekiel
27:17), 20 measures of barley (sa-ru, shacru),
10 measures of emmer (ku-ni-su, kunishu),
10 measures of oats (di-sha-ru according to
Jan Best, Babylonian disharru), and finally
7 measures of roasted corn (qe-la-u, Babylonian
qalu), a delicacy. 10 measures are given by
a horizontal stroke, 20 measures by two
horizontal strokes, and 7 measures by four
above three vertical strokes.
HT 95, side A and side B:
Dadumatha, the one loved by Baal or Haddu
or Adu, obtains the following amounts of cereals:
10 measures of millet, 10 measures (of wheat)
from Ebla (mi-nu-the), 20 measures of barley,
10 measures of emmer, 10 measures of oats,
and 7 measures of roasted corn.
Adu or Haddu or Baal (obtains) 10 measures
of barley, 10 measures of millet, 10 measures
(of wheat) from Ebla (mi-nu-the), 10 measures
of emmer, 10 measures of oats, and 10
measures of roasted corn.
Ezekiel mentions "wheat from Minnith" (27:17).
The best wheat grew in the region of Ebla,
so that the ancient name of the place was used
as synonym of wheat.
In my opinion the Minoans came originally from
Mi-Nu-The or Ebla, an insight gained five years
ago in the thread Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95
(July 2004, sci.archaeology; please look it up
in fixed font for the ASCII drawing of the bull head
for Mi, the visual pun of a bull leaper on the feet
hands feet for Nu, and the tree of life for The).
Peter T. Daniels
Well. According to the New York Public Library, "Museion 2000" is or
was a popular religion magazine published between 1992 and 2007. They
keep it Offsite in storage, so it would have to be ordered a week or
so in advance if it were worth looking at.
I don't know what "compiled by me" could mean; either the author
publishes the information, or not.
But since this is a popular magazine, it seems that there should have
been some sort of scientific publication that was subject to peer
review underlying this article, and that's what a scholar would be
interested in seeing.
The popular science magazine *Scientific American* provides selected
bibliographic references to back up its stories. Does *Museion 2000*?
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Well. According to the New York Public Library, "Museion 2000" is or
> was a popular religion magazine published between 1992 and 2007. They
> keep it Offsite in storage, so it would have to be ordered a week or
> so in advance if it were worth looking at.
>
> I don't know what "compiled by me" could mean; either the author
> publishes the information, or not.
Hinz gives an introduction into the problem
and explains the decipherment in a 'historical'
way, if I may call it so, step by step, how it
was deciphered, and at the same time in
a readable manner, readable also for laymen.
So I took excerpts from the article and put
them together, arranging them this way:
side A in a phonetic transcription
according to Hinz and partly Best
explaining translation of side A
more concise translations of both sides
My summary is different from the article,
made intelligible for the readers of sci.lang,
rendered in one rather short message
instead of many pages. I invest a lot of time
and work in making my posts readable,
including achievements by others I quote.
> But since this is a popular magazine, it seems that there should have
> been some sort of scientific publication that was subject to peer
> review underlying this article, and that's what a scholar would be
> interested in seeing.
I had the entire journal, but as I was only
interested in Hinz's article I cut it out and
gave the rest away.
> The popular science magazine *Scientific American* provides selected
> bibliographic references to back up its stories. Does *Museion 2000*?
As I only kept that article I can't tell you.
But anyway, archaeology confirmed Gordon
and Best and Hinz: the Minoans came from
Asia minor, meanwhile the mainstream view
among archaeologists working in the field.
Franz Gnaedinger
As my message was killrated by my stalker
Panu Petteri Höglund, who follows me around
since almost three and a half years, using several
aliases in his desperate wish to gain influence,
and for the purpose of multiple killrating, I go on
in this thread, countering the black hole of a barren
mind with ideas that won't pass his event horizon.
Perhaps the "icy athmosphere of refusal" that rewarded
Gordon for his Minoan hypothesis learned Hinz to look
out for a wider public than a bunch of edus, and he was
very right in publishing his decipherment and translation
of HT 95 in a rather popular theological journal in Zurich
so that it fell in my hands. I am the one to prove him
right. He didn't just paint a window on a wall but opened
a real window on the past. I was intrigued by the word
or name mi-nu-the that evokes Minos. How is it written?
The first sign shows apparently the head of a bull.
The second sign resembles our H with an additional
horizontal bar, the two horizontal bars in symmetrical
positions, evoking a standing human figure with raised
arms. Or perhaps a human figure performing a handstand?
Or a bull leaper standing on the feet before the bull,
seizing the horns and leaping over the bull's head
and standing for a while on the animal's back, then
jumping down and standing on the ground again, arms
raised in triumph? A visual pun of a bull leaper standing
on his or her feet-hands-feet? What a pretty idea! And
the third sign is then easily identified as a tree of life.
So the first two signs refer to the Minoan bulls and
bull leapers, and the third sign refers to Asia Minor.
And together the three signs -- the same in hiero-
glyphic Minoan, Linear A, and Linear B -- read
mi-nu-te or mi-nu-the, referring to mi-nu-tium or mnt
or Minnit or Minnith, which became Ebla and Tell
Mardikh, some fourty kilometers south of Aleppo
in northern Syria where also a minotaur was known.
The Minoans came in all probability from Ebla.
Cyrus H. Gordon was right in his understanding
that the Minoans were Semitic, and their idiom
was a northwest Semitic language akin to Ugaritic,
Eblaite, Canaanitic and Phoenician. And so I can
trust Gordon in what he says about Knudtzon and
his first identification of Hittite as an Indo-European
language. And so again I can trust Possehl when
he quotes Gordon on Knudtzon, and when he says
that Hrozny succeeded and is now considered the
scholar who cracked Hittite because he had a bold
and forceful personality and "stuck to his guns."
Franz Gnaedinger
My piece on the Indus seals went online:
www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm
(first part on the Göbekli Tepe, short version,
followed by the chapter: Indus seals - honoring
families for outstanding contributions to the
common weal?, and the feature the two parts
have in common is a lunisolar calendar).
Panu
Franz, would you mind giving me your snail-mail address? I could send
you a dedicated copy of my Irish-language novel. It is about to be
published, and it will have also sexy illustrations by my elder
brother.